Lars Mangelsdorf | From SDR to successfully founding & exiting a SaaS business

In this episode, Lars Mangelsdorf, Co-Founder and CCO of Yokoy, takes us on a journey from his early days as an SDR to building a multi-product SaaS powerhouse. He shares candid insights on scaling aggressively, navigating complex European markets, and the hard lessons learned from over-hiring and rapid expansion. With practical advice on mastering outbound sales and adapting to market nuances, Lars reveals how every misstep paved the way for Yokoy's eventual acquisition by TravelPerk.

Transcript

Welcome to Missteps and Mastery. My name is Machiel. I'm the founder and CEO of Bluebird. And with a decade of SaaS and leadership experience, I found that I learned most from my own failures and those of others, and from stories of individuals who have excelled and achieved mastery in certain areas. And in this podcast, we unpack the pivotal missteps and the moments of masteries that have driven SaaS leaders to excel. Now with that said, let me introduce you to our second guest.

Lars Mangelsdorf, who is the co-founder and CCO of Yokoy, the spanned management platform for mid-sized companies and global enterprises. So first of all, welcome to the podcast, Lars, and a big, big thank you for joining. Thank you, Machiel. Or don't you well. Yes. Thanks for me. Would you mind giving us a high level introduction of your background and your SaaS journey up to now? Sure. Sure. So.

Yeah, I I said before, Don Quijote, I'm half Dutch, half Swiss. So I spent a lot of my time in the Netherlands. And professionally, though, I spent most of my time in Switzerland because I was born in the Netherlands and raised in Switzerland and spent basically all my career there. Of course, I was traveling, traveling a lot for my work. But what I've been doing is in Switzerland, it's quite common that you do as you do an apprenticeship, right? You have this dual system where you work and you go to school.

And that allowed me from a very young age already to see how companies work. And it's something that already got me super excited when I was very young. I was like 16 years old. And then, yeah, I think I was like around 19 when I started my sales career because I was working in procurement before. That was like my last station of my apprenticeship.

the salespeople were always on the opposite side of the table, right? And I always felt like, okay, you know, I could see myself sitting there. So I steered my career into sales, started with a customer success slash insights, sorry, customer support inside sales roles. was selling service contracts at the beginning and then later on I started to sell SaaS. So by now I have over a decade experience selling software as a service in international companies.

Dapper Agency (02:28.614)
And, yeah, I mean, coming from hardware products, I always loved the idea of having a scalable product that you don't have to ship around the world because that always comes with a lot of pain. and then, I think my, the, the most important step in my career before becoming a founder was then the journey at beekeeper. So beekeeper is also a Swiss, Swiss scale up.

They're quite well known in Europe. And yet there I started to work as a senior account executive to build the Swiss enterprise market. that was really the intention of joining Beekeeper was really, the next step will be to start my own business. And I was so lucky to find my co-founders there. But yeah, that's basically on a very short timeline, on a very short, in very few words, the timeline, rather long timeline that

You know, took me until I could start my first startup. Yeah. I love that story. There's some overlap between you and I, because I actually started my sales career when I was 19 as well. So I was a part-time sales development rep for a software company where I ended up working for nine years and I quit my studies to actually go and work there full-time. So I've recommended a lot of people in my life to also work next to their studies and

already try to get into that professional rhythm because it does really give you a head start. What a beekeeper, you mentioned like, then I already knew that I wanted to start my own business. Tell me a bit more about that. What triggered that? Yeah, it's a good, it's a good question. There's multiple things. So my dad always was working for his own business. So he was never really employed. never, I never saw my dad working as an employee. I mean, he did like at the very end of his career.

But most he was working for himself. So first of all, I liked the thought of freedom. But I think to Machiel, when you found the company, actually there's not a lot of freedom. I was just about to say. But it's the idea. It's the idea of building a business, having the freedom, of course, having a huge upside for your track record, but also financially. So that was something that triggered it for me.

Dapper Agency (04:50.68)
But also, and I think that was the biggest trigger for me was, you will be able to create a company, employ people, have fun with these people, have a great time. Because also when I was at Beekeeper, mean, it was always super fun because the culture was very good. And you are sitting at the steering wheel, right? So you can impact that culture. You can develop people. And I think also now, if I look back,

you know, to the almost six years that we had now, I think that we brought many people into the business that, I would, even if, if, if, if we would start another company, I would employ these people again. Right. And I think that is so cool when you, when you reach that point. So yeah, it was, it was the combination of those points basically that, that made me want to start a company. Amazing. So that was a bit of an inspiration from that perspective.

And tell me a bit about like how you assembled that starting team of co-founders. Can you tell us a bit about the structure? How are you guys complimentary? So I think what is rather unusual about our story is that we started the company with five co-founders. So a very large founding team. And I was just at an event from UBS last week and there was one question like, did you guys make sure that, you know,

especially in the beginning, that everyone knew, knew like, what is my role? What do I have to do? How can I bring value to the business? And I think that is super, super, super, super important. Because if, you don't have clear roles and, and responsibilities and hold each other accountable for it, then it won't work. Right. So I met Phil and Thomas at Beekeeper. our, our CEO, Phil, he was the CFO at Beekeeper and Thomas, our CFO here at Yokoy. He was the head of finance at Beekeeper.

And they knew Davis from, from Ernst and Young and Melanie is a friend of, of Davis. So that's how we, how we came together. And it's so funny because when we, When we started the business, we, we defined roles already before we would, like, start working on the initial project. So it was, for me, it was already clear at the very beginning. Okay. I will be responsible for sales. And I will be responsible to translate the feedback that we get from the market back to.

Dapper Agency (07:17.422)
Davis and Thomas. They were investing a lot in the product together. And then Melanie was taking care of all the marketing. And Phil was, he was basically fighting with me on the sales side, but also doing the fundraising next to it. So it was very clear, like, who will do what. We also set ourselves goals. We set ourselves even an ARR target when we started the company. So Yeah, it was already very clear at the beginning what

what each and one of us has to bring to the table. I've known you longer than today. So I don't think I barely have to ask you whether you hit that ARR target. I assume you did. I think I never said it in the podcast, but actually we did not. Oh no. There's no reason why. We set it super high. We set it extremely high. So we hit seven digits after one year, I think.

That is quite impressive already. That's really impressive. We set our target not in the low seven digits. We set it right in the... Not also in the high seven digits, but it was just higher than what we hit. But I think also if I look at the full journey of Yokoy, we always set ourselves very high targets. And I think it's also a good thing to do, right? Also to show...

the investors you work with, the people you employ that you want to go for the moon. So we did that from the very beginning on. That's amazing. And all co-founders are still involved. So we're now four of the five co-founders involved. Melanie left us in 2022, I think it was. And also there, think that's also a very interesting point. I think that a company is also

changing and evolving. So I think it's also a very natural thing that at different stages of the company, you might not be the same team and you will bring new people on board, et cetera. there's a lot of change involved in that. it's not every stage is everyone's stage that they enjoy. Agreed.

Dapper Agency (09:32.78)
I separated with my co-founder last year in a really good way. We had an amazing journey together, but at some point it made more sense to move ahead in our separate ways. tell me a bit about the past five years with the five, six years with Yokoy. a bit about the journey, where you guys are today. Obviously I cannot go past the most recent news that you sold your company to Travel Perk, I think just a few weeks ago officially. So first of all, congratulations.

But can you run us through that story kind of from start to finish and obviously really interested to zoom in a little bit to your current situation? Sure, sure. I try to keep it short and not to elaborate too much. So we started back in 2019 before COVID under the name Expense Robot. Many people don't know, but we started as Expense Robot. And it's so funny, I just found an old business card on my desk at home.

yesterday when I was cleaning up my desk. So we started the company with the idea of automating expenses, right? And that's also where the name comes from. So 2019, we quitted our jobs, we started to work full time on expense robot. We hit that milestone of revenue that we wanted to, not the one in the year, but we said, okay, we give ourselves six months for the first milestone, and then we'll start the fundraising process.

So we we raised our series seed that was in 2020, early 2020. And then COVID hit. And I remember so well the day we were planning to have our series seed party was the day where the lockdown in Switzerland started. So we had to basically cancel that party and send everyone home. And from that moment on, become a remote company. And before we would always...

be in the office and work together. But I think it also made us stronger. Most of the hiring we did was in that remote phase. And we were still quite a small team. So that also helped. It's way, way easier to communicate when you're a small team and remote. So that was also the time when we changed our name right at that COVID time. So we changed from Expanserbot to Yokoy. And the reason we did that, and that's also an important milestone if you look back at the five years,

Dapper Agency (12:01.088)
It's because we started to build other products in the spam management area. So we went away from expense management only towards spam management. So we released our cards. So the first Yokoy card, I think we released still in 2020. So we were quite fast with shipping that product. And then in 2021, when we raised series A, we started to develop Yokoy invoice. So the invoice

platform because it was very logical for the client base that we had and the people we talked to, which are accountants, head of finance, CFOs. If you already have the integration to the ERP system, you have the expense management tool, you have cards in use, it's very easy to also take that step and also process all your invoices on that platform because it will just give you a better overview of all the spend that you have in the company. So that was also

how we raised series A and then series B. And we had a massive, massive, massive growth in that time, revenue wise, but also in terms of head count. Yeah, I think before series A, we grew a lot. And then series A, series B, that time, series A and B was very close together. I think it was like five or six months between series A and B. And there we scaled a lot.

And then the focus was really to, to open up new markets. And that was a, that was another challenge again, right? Because, know, developing a new product, ship it, sell it in your home markets. I think that is easier than, to expand into new markets. And the difficulty for us was also, we had to comply with all the regulations in these markets. Right? So if you go to Germany, Germany is so different than Switzerland. And then the Benelux again is different. UK is again, different.

So that was the challenge that we had when we started to expand into new markets. But if I look today at our client portfolio, Germany is leading the race. Also because Germany was a country that we expanded very early to, but Germany is today bringing more clients in than Switzerland, which should also be that way. Because if you look at Europe, Germany is the biggest

Dapper Agency (14:25.14)
economy we have together with the UK. And that's why in the past three years, we really focused on Germany and the UK. Got it. Maybe to interrupt you for a second, ask a couple of questions, because you've mentioned some interesting points. Do I understand correctly that quite early on, you guys were a multi product? Yeah. Because I think that's something that a lot of companies struggle with. But it seems like you quite naturally made that decision and

It came maybe quite easy by the sounds of it, but how did you know that it was the right time for it? Yeah, there were different factors to that. mean, first of all, we are also in an industry, or let's say we are in a niche of products with spam management that is very, very fragmented. So there's a lot of competition happening.

And the players that we admired in that market, they were usually in the US and very US focused. And the difficulty is when you are a US company and you want to expand to Europe is to first of all understand the compliance and regulatory framework and then also making sure that you can keep up with all the changes that we have in the EU, right?

Sometimes it's a pain that we are like so over-regulated here in the European Union. But on the other hand, it's also an opportunity, right? Yeah. So we saw that opportunity. These American players, they were not able to really expand here. They did. They did very well, but only for the SMB type companies. And we were already quite early on focusing on mid-market and then

going up to enterprise. Got it. And what triggered that rapid growth? Can you mention which points were really important to be that successful so early on? I mean, there was also luck involved, I guess, because at that time, there was a lot of money invested by companies in their digitization. So it was the time where there was basically free money. So companies would...

Dapper Agency (16:45.76)
really have dedicated budgets for driving that transformation. So that was one. Second, the growth was also triggered because there was not a tool like Yokoy before for those type of companies in our markets that we were working in. I think then also later on, when more and more players came, the growth was also fueled

because of our competitors. I think I told you when we when we started to work together, Machiel, I love competition. I love to be surrounded by competitors because it will also drive our business. And then last but not least, we also invested a lot of money in building our our go to market team. And we had a very aggressive outbound approach when we started started in these countries.

And we would really go out and talk to prospects and we would really, really, yeah, really drive that from inside out with our go-to-market team. Let's zoom in on that a little bit more because there's a lot of companies that want to successfully approach the German market. At the same time, it's a pretty complex market to open up in despite the fact that it's becoming a way more digitized country and there's a lot of developments in Germany. Can you tell me bit about like...

What made you guys succeed in Germany? How did you approach that? one thing that we also learned, especially if you open up new countries. So our first country that we opened was Austria and our sales lead in Austria, Stefan, he was already a friend of us basically. he was with us from the very beginning. I think the more you grow,

the more difficult it will get because you don't have these people anymore, right? You hire someone locally in the market and then you ex yeah, you, you, you basically you expect this person to learn all the regulations and then, give this feedback to product and then, you know, build a roadmap on what do we need now? What, you know, what can wait, how can we create a rope? And I think that it's super difficult and that is where a lot of startups struggle with.

Dapper Agency (19:13.41)
What we found out with our secret formula is, it's really to have someone experienced in Yokoy, ideally that is also well connected in the HQ and with product and with our CTO, send this person over to that market and then figure it out and work in that market. So it's also for sure one of the mistakes that we made. We would just put people in these markets and then...

We're like, okay, somehow it's going to work out right. But I think it's very, very difficult. If you have someone sitting geographically in another market and then bringing that client feedback back to product and also prioritize it and really understand what is needed to scale that business there, it is a challenge. And it's something that we didn't do it the right way always.

So for Germany, for that example, what, what I did back in the 2023, January, 2023, I started to travel back and forth between Germany and Switzerland. So I spent a lot of time in Germany. spent a lot of time with clients in Germany and I would, I would bring my co-founders in and making sure, okay, let's, let's take these, um, requirements. Let's make sure we can prioritize them. And then in the same way, still close business, right?

And so that made us also very successful in Germany. But it is tough. It is really tough because especially for us in Switzerland, it's so different and you have to learn. And the only way that you can learn is to talk to a lot of clients. Yeah. I love that strategy. I also have seen that work with a lot of software companies. Actually, our first podcast guest was Nipple.

and they moved one of their co-founders to Berlin and he's building it out there now and that's also going really successfully. So thank you for sharing. Then you raised 80 million in your Series B with Sequoia. I think that's a number that wows a lot of people. Are there any learnings in there, how you can successfully raise such a large fund that other founders could learn from? Yeah, think that there's always many things coming together. I think first of all, you...

Dapper Agency (21:36.524)
Without growth, without revenue growth, it is not possible. So you need to really be exceptional in your growth. Our metrics were really, really good. Also between series A, series B, we really exceeded our targets. That is one. Then I think The second one is the market. The timing needs to be right. think timing is often very important. Also, if you do sales, timing is so important.

So, of course, there was a lot of hype in that time in our area, in the spam management area. That is the second one. Then the third one is to really build a reputation in your market. It's not only the numbers, but it's also having these very impressive client logos and having clients that love you.

Clients that would start a riot if someone wants to take your product away from them. And that is what really helped us to raise that very big round. Can you share a bit about what percentage growth were you guys going through if you can share that? Yeah, it was. If you look at the SaaS metrics, there's like, I'm not sure who released it, but there's like this, like where you have the top percent of SaaS companies.

And that was also the growth that we were at. Like that you would really, you had a three digit growth. And I think when you can grow over a hundred percent, if you can double, triple, or even quadruple your business, is, you know, especially over some time, that is really exceptional growth. And also the cool thing that comes with

getting these investors in that is you will also get connected to other SaaS companies. So I also spent some time talking to other SaaS founders. yeah, what I think what all have in common, all of these companies with, you know, where Sequoia is invested in or other like top tier VCs is that they have exceptional growth figures. I think that is a must.

Dapper Agency (23:58.892)
I think that's also what we're seeing in the market. Again, I think we've had a temporary focus on a lot of companies becoming more operationally efficient, getting towards EBITDA positive, being EBITDA positive. But in the end, I also see with companies that raise most funding, it's typically still very much growth focused. Yeah, think especially for starting scale ups, right? Because you still need to prove that you can grow that business. Although the pressure on

Efficiency is also a real one that matters a lot right now. yeah, we also felt that. So you just sold the business to Travel Perk. How are you feeling? Good. mean, for me, honestly, it doesn't feel like an exit. Exit is not like we sold the business and now we're out and the company is away.

does not feel like that at all, right? Because first of all, it's a complimentary product to TravelPerk. So it's something completely new for them and Travel is something completely new for us. I mean, of course we already partnered for many years with TravelPerk and we know those people so well. I spent so much time in Barcelona even before we started to talk about joining forces.

Yeah, we have to integrate that now. We have to upscale people on both sides. So there's a lot of things to do now. it doesn't feel like an exit to me, it feels strangely. It feels to me like when we were at the very beginning, because there is something new that that we're building now. Basically, there's a new go to market motion that we're building. We have to test it out. We have to

upscale people, have to come up with messaging. So it's basically back on square one for the joint go to market motion. So I think that is also a very exciting thing now, right? Really exciting. I went through the acquisition of Enable Technologies by SolarWinds. I was working for Enable. That was a very strategic investment and we were in addition to their product portfolio. And when I saw the acquisition by Travel Perk,

Dapper Agency (26:20.204)
I immediately thought, it's kind of a no brainer. Like you guys really strengthen each other in each other's proposition, but you'll have a broader platform that you'll be able to sell. How will your role change within this new format? Yeah. Yeah. What I said before, that is basically the direction that also the role will change. first of all, I assume a lot of people in sales will watch this podcast.

Beautiful thing if you have a sales background is there's always value that you can deliver, right? Because you always need to sell, The way my role will change and also what I'm looking forward to the most is to, what I said before, come up with a new go-to-market messaging, start basically all over again. I mean, not all over again. There is already some stuff from both companies, but now we're

Now we will go out selling a TND platform. That is what we're to do after age one. We will really go out and sell this one platform for your full TND experience. You have to create something that's one plus one is three as opposed to two. Correct. First of all, there is a lot of upside for both because there's a client base of Yoko that is not using Travel Perk.

client base of Travel Perk that is not using Yo-Koin and also, of course, there's a lot of upside there. I think where it gets really interesting, and that is where I'm also working with Travel Perk to upscale both of the teams, is to really go out and sell that idea of the one, basically your one stop shop for T &E, for travel and expense. yeah, and then having a team that can really sell T &E and be expert in both areas.

And that is also how my role will change because someone needs to take the lead in that go-to market. So I'm working very close with Travel Perk and with our people. So for me, it feels like a complete role change, but an exciting one. Super exciting. I'm genuinely really, really happy for you. So obviously like...

Dapper Agency (28:45.484)
This story so far has been a huge, huge success. At the same time, I want to take one step back. I want to look at one of the things in the past five, six years that you consider your biggest mistake, something that every other founder needs to hear about so they can learn from it. Can you tell us a bit about one of the biggest missteps that you've made? Yeah, we did. It's funny, right? Because when you reflect on every year, always around December, you look back on the

past year and you realize that you actually did a lot of mistakes. Yeah, I think like the biggest mistakes probably was that comes with raising a lot of money is to you tend to you tend to overspend over hire and and just put money on the problem. So I think that if you when you don't have money, your mind is sharper.

I think for most most people, right. I also had a time personally, right, when, you know, when you're very young and you you move out from home, you know, you just don't have the money. You have to be creative, right. So a lot of creativity comes from not having money. And so it's a double edged sword. If you have a lot of money, you know, you will just tend to throw money at your problems. And I mean,

Dapper Agency (30:15.116)
The story of Yokoy and now together with Travel Perk is a great one. it was not a mistake that killed our business. Not at all. But I think if I look back, what we did wrong was we hired too much too fast before we really had an understanding of the markets that we were expanding to. And then also the market changed at that time. Right.

Right after our series B markets changed a lot. So efficiency was important and we had to do that exercise all over again from the very, from the very beginning again. and I think when I think back, we could have saved a lot of time. We could have been more efficient if we would have, if we would have focused on quality, do one after the other instead of just like expanding and go in all these markets simultaneously.

That is a difficult dynamic because at the same time you have VC backing, there are certain expectations. If you look back at that, would you have also pushed back more and really done that differently? Do you think that situation would have been a realistic one? I think we would have done that, but I have to be honest, we also didn't know about all... When you expand into new countries, right, you will get an understanding, like very high level on, okay, how does...

How does it work in that country to make business, right? But the really detailed understanding will come when you talk to clients. Right? And if you expand very fast in a lot of countries and you hire a lot of people, so you also need to onboard these people, it gets very, very tricky to balance that. Right? And we were also unaware about these very, very, you know,

big differences between the countries because when you read it high level, it all sounds quite similar. But only when you talk to clients is when you will really, really understand and you will be able to, to tell, okay, there is a priority on what you will need to deliver. So it is a difficult one because you still want to be fast and expand fast.

But yeah, guess we should have focused more on really understanding the markets, the dynamics in that market, understanding also the profile of people that we need to hire within the market. And then the more you mature, you can build a playbook perfectly. But I think in the beginning, it's very difficult to do. Yeah.

So maybe to zoom in, I'm going to make this tough for you. But If you have to take one piece of practical advice out of that, for the founders that are listening today. What would that advice be around this topic? So, my advice would be if you go, if you expand in new markets, take your time as a founder to

to really deep dive in that market. And when I say deep dive, I really mean also physically go on site. It's always, you know, you can read as much as you want and you can listen to podcasts, but only when you really go into that market and you talk to clients, because you will also get introductions and you will, you will meet people that can help you on the way. So that's why you need to be on site. and Get an understanding of that market, of the dynamics, understand if your product is a fit or not.

And then start to, to, hire the people and start to come up with, with targets and, and, expectations for the country, because it will be really, really tough if you, if you do it, if you do it the other way around, right? If you come up with targets and then you start hiring people there, I think it's important to, yeah, to take them by the hand and as a founder, be there with your team on the ground and, and crush it together or lose together, right? Yeah. That is also an option. So, that is what I would.

give founders on their way. Great. I'm really glad I asked the question. That was super valuable advice. So you mentioned every year I reflect back and I noticed that I've made so many mistakes at the same time. Like, of course, you guys have done a lot of things really, really well. If you would have to pinpoint one thing where you would say like at Yokoy, this is the thing that we were tremendous at. What would you highlight?

So I think one is we were like from the very beginning because we had to, we were always focused on, on outbound led sales. I think that is one where we were very good at.

I think second we were extremely good at shipping products fast. also, because I also invest in some startups, I see that a lot of startups struggle with that, with delivering products. And maybe it's because I invest mostly in Swiss startups and they always want to build the perfect product. And I think we all know perfectionism is the killer of profitability. So you need to ship products very fast and get feedback, get feedback.

I think that is where we were really strong at ship early, get feedback from our clients that I would say second. Yeah. And third one is building a client base that will adapt if you bring new products, if you bring new features. I think that is also important. So we were also super successful with bringing out our cards and then

upselling existing clients to the car program of your coin. And then you will generate a new revenue stream. Right. And what is interesting, the dynamics is that you will get also referrals based on the cards that you have, for example. So there's a lot of upside when you do these things. Right. So I think if I had to pinpoint down and again, I'm talking now biased with a bias on go to market. But I really think that we did really, really well.

Yeah, because you were always talking to clients. And I think because of the focus on mid-market, we had a lot of onsite demos and onsite relationships that we built. And that is also very valuable rather than selling to very, very small clients and have a short sales cycle. So I think that is a good side on having a slightly longer sales cycle. Yeah. Before we wrap up, I want to

quickly zoom into that outbound led sales piece a little bit, because I think when you mentioned that you're triggering a lot of people that are listening, because this is something a lot of companies are struggling with. Can you tell us as hands on as possible what the structure is that you had built and how you got it to become a successful repeatable machine? Yeah, we all always had from the very, very beginning, we always had STRs. I'm a big, big believer of

Dapper Agency (37:47.278)
bringing SDRs into your business. And I'm also a big believer of developing SDRs. I think our best performing, not all, but A big chunk of our best performers, they started their career as an SDR. It's funny, Machiel, because you and I also started our career as SDRs. All the young people that are listening to the podcast... Become an SDR. ...Consider your career as an SDR.

I think that is very important. Creativity, try many things. The market is changing. If I look back on how we did outbound at the very beginning, I think that it doesn't work anymore. You cannot just blast out 1000 emails and expect a 10%, 15 % reply rate. That will not work anymore. You have to be way more specialized. You have to focus on quality, not just on quantity, especially when you...

sell to mid market companies. And I think, and I know people will hate me for saying this, but I still think that cold calling is so relevant. And it's just easier to cold call 10 than to, to do emails, you know, if you look at, at the results that they will bring you, it's out of your comfort zone. But yeah. And I also think, by the way, that prospecting is someone that everyone in the organization should do. Especially you as a founder, I think,

founders are not excluded from prospecting. And I think it's very important that you also help to generate business for your AEs and also help your SDRs that they are more successful in prospecting. And we did that from very early on and it helped us a lot. Yeah, you're preaching to the choir here. And especially the part where you say like these methods also change. I think there has been a period where gold calling was kind of overused and it was really difficult to get through.

then we went into a phase where personalized video was really killing it. We had like a 45 % response rate to our personalized videos. Did we send you one? that, yeah. Okay, well, that's good proof that it worked. But if we're doing that today, we're seeing way lower response rates. And I do think cold calling is really back at its peak and one of the most relevant ways to do prospecting. Yeah, and emailing is more or less just a step in your cadence.

Absolutely. Agreed. Agreed. Lars, this was so much fun. Super valuable information. Thank you also for making the time. I know it was a bit of a stretch to get you on this podcast knowing that you sold Yokoy to Travel Perk and a lot of things are going on. So I'm really, really grateful that you joined and thank you for sharing all your information. Thanks. It was fun. Thank you, Machiel.