S9 E2 Nature of God: Static Perfection or Eternal Growth?

Episode 2 of Changes explores the theological question of God's perfection in LDS theology. We examine whether God's perfection means He's unchanging or if He experiences growth. Looking at scripture and historical teachings from figures like Brigham Young and Orson Pratt, we discuss eternal progression, human potential for godhood, and how understanding these concepts impacts personal spiritual journeys. 

Sources

• Essay_Unchanging Nature of God_The Lectures of Faith_BYU RSC
• Essay_Eternal Progression_Mormon Research Ministry
• Essay_What is the Nature of God's Progress_BYU RSC
• Essay_First Principles of Man_BYU RSC
• Book_Mormon Doctrine
• Essay_Nature of God_Mormon Stories
• Essay_Adam God Theory_FAIR
• Essay_What is the Adam-God Theory_Talking Scripture
• Essay_The Adam-God Doctrine_Dialogue

AI Prompt
Explore whether God's perfection is stable, or changes and grows. State the paradox of a perfect, all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving being growing. Discuss the theological debate and how it played out between Brigham Young and Orson Pratt. Share relevant scriptures and quotes. What implications does this have on humanity as "Gods in embryo?".  Explore how this ties into the Adam-God theory? What is this theory? Why and when was it abandoned? What does this mean for our ability to be like God?

Transcript

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Ever think about like what it even means for God to be perfect? Like is it some sort of final thing? You know, like he's reached the top of the mountain or could it could it maybe be more like always unfolding, always, you know, like today on the deep dive, let's jump into this question about God. Does his perfection mean that he's like totally unchanging? Or could it actually involve like growth, change? How does that even work?

Oh, yeah. That's a really deep question. And right off the bat, it feels a little bit like a puzzle because, well, how can a being who we say is all powerful and all knowing and all loving and you know perfect in every single way. How can that being also grow or change? It almost feels like those two ideas, they butt heads a little, don't they?

I know, right? Like how do you add more to something that's already full? It's like mind blowing. And this isn't exactly a brand new question either. It's been around for a while. And if we peek back into, you know, the early church, there were some fascinating discussions about this. We'll look at some of those those different ways of thinking about it. You know, we had folks like Brigham Young and Orson Pratt just to name a few. So yeah, we'll try to get a grip on those different ideas.

And to do that for our deep dive today, we're going straight to the source material. We really wanted to unpack this whole theological puzzle with you, okay?

And look at it from different sides and see what does it tell us about our potential as humans. I mean, and and try to grasp the historical context, you know, like what was happening back then that shaped these discussions.

Okay. Yeah. Let's just dive right into the deep end, I guess. So this idea of God being perfect but also potentially growing or changing. I mean, our sources say that God is infinite and eternal. From everlasting to everlasting, the same unchangeable God. And that's in Doctrine and Covenant section 20:17. And that word unchangeable that really stands out, doesn't it?

It really does. I mean, that scripture, it highlights something really fundamental about God. It's his immutability. And that big word immutability basically means that God's core being, his essence, doesn't change. But then you know we dig a bit deeper and we come across this idea of eternal progression and that's in relation to God. Makes you wonder right

things get really interesting here because what our sources suggest it's not that God is like getting more knowledge or more truth or wisdom because you know he already has all of that but he does progress in another way

right the Doctrines of Salvation Volume 1 pages 5-10 kind of gives us this idea God progresses because his creations increase his dominions expand his spirit offspring multiply and more kingdoms are added to his domains. So it's not like he's becoming more godly. It's more like the scope of his work is God. That's what's progressing.

So less about God becoming more God and more about God being God, but like on a bigger and bigger canvas. And then there's this idea that that people who reach exaltation like the highest level, they become Gods of Gods. That's in Teachings pages 342 to 376.

Wild, right? Yeah. It paints this picture of like this expanding order within within the divine.

Like when Once you reach exaltation, you're part of his ongoing creative work and it's all under God's direction. It really makes you think.

Okay. You talked about those historical conversations with Brigham Young and Orson Pratt. Can you tell us more about that?

Sure. So, the main sources for this deep dive, they don't give us like a super detailed debate transcript between those two like they weren't going back and forth about this specific thing. But looking at historical records and their teachings overall, yeah, we see some different emphasis. Brigham Young in his talks and writings, he often talked about God as an exalted man, you know, who had progressed to this state of being God. And that way of seeing things, it emphasizes the journey to God's perfection.

Okay. So, like that idea of a journey to the top of the mountain that we were talking about earlier.

Yeah. Now, Orson Pratt, he generally leaned more towards that traditional view of God's perfection being well, eternal and unchanging like those scriptures we looked at. And to him, God's perfection was like this this core characteristic, not something you achieve by going through a process of growth like like us. humans.

And it's important to remember that our main source here, it portrays God as eternally perfect, right? But it also says his creations are always expanding. So even though we'd need to dig into the historical details to really understand the Brigham Young and Orson Pratt thing, we can see how these core ideas could lead to different interpretations.

Yeah, totally. The tricky part is figuring out how these scriptural declarations of God's unchanging nature, how do those fit with eternal progression and the idea that we can become like him.

Let's look at some of those scriptures. So, we already mentioned Doctrine Covenants 20:17 about God being the same unchangeable God. What about that phrase stands out to you?

You know what really strikes me is that word unchangeable. Just how absolute it is. Like God is someone we can depend on. His character, his attributes, they're constant, they're reliable, and they're to be that way forever. And in a world where everything feels like it's constantly changing, that's that's really powerful.

And then there's Moses 7:35 where says, "Eternal is my name." And here eternal, it's not just describing him. It's like his name, his identity. How does that fit in?

It's like saying, "Love is my name."

Yeah.

It's not just a quality he has. It's who he is at his core. And using eternal as a noun like that, it emphasizes that God is not bound by time. His perfection is not limited by the kind of progression that we experience in our lives.

Right? And then we have Doctrine and Covenants 132 19 and 20. And that says, "Exalted beings become gods because they have no end from everlasting to everlasting because they continue." And it also mentions that they have all power. So, how does all that connect to this idea of progression?

That scripture is really important. It's like becoming a god means you exist forever and your capacity and influence, they just keep growing. That phrase because they continue. That's key because it means they're always being doing. And that really lines up with this idea of eternal progression for people who reach exaltation. It's like an endless journey, you know,

of development and contribution,

right? And remember that quote from Doctrines of Salvation, volume 1, pages 5 to 10. That's the one that talks about God's progression being about more creations, more dominions. It's like this whole concept of divine perfection. It's got all these different dimensions.

You got it. It's definitely not a simple thing. Like God's nature and attributes, they're unchanging, but then there's this dynamic aspect, right? Like

his work, his influence, it's always expanding eternally. Okay. So, taking all of this in, what does it mean for us, you know, as humans, what's it mean if we think of ourselves as like gods and embryo?

Well, if we link divine progression, you know, this idea of more creations and more dominion, what we know about exaltation, it kind of suggests that eventually we can participate in that same divine work. It's like our journey isn't just about reaching some static state of bliss, but it's about doing something meaningful forever.

Our sources talk about entering into celestial marriage and becoming gods because they have all power. That's Doctrine and Covenants 132:20. How does that fit in with what we're talking about?

That scripture is pretty direct. It connects exaltation to becoming a god. And it describes this state of godhood as having eternal continuation and all power. And it suggests that by living righteously, keeping covenants, and especially through celestial marriage, we can start down that path that leads to becoming like God in those ways like creating, influencing, having dominion within our own spheres, you know, and says that reaching exaltation means becoming like God and that happens through eternal progression. Doctrine and Covenants 32:16-1 17. But there's a really important difference here, right? We progress by developing godly attributes. God already has them completely.

Yeah, that's a crucial difference. Humans here in this life and after, we're striving to develop love, knowledge, wisdom, holiness, all the things that make God perfect. God already has those fully. He progresses by using and expanding his nature through through creation and governance. So the main difference is this. God's perfection, it never changes. But his actions are always expanding. Your journey though, it's about actually becoming more perfect, aligning yourself with his attributes.

And this brings us to a pretty interesting and sometimes controversial topic, the Adam God theory. What is that exactly?

So the Adam God theory, it basically teaches that Adam is God the Father, our main God. It says that God the Father used to be a man and he progressed to godhood. And his final step in that process was as being Adam, the father of everyone on earth. And that theory, it tackles this question of divine progression head on by saying that God himself went through that same process to become who he is.

Okay, I see how it connects with this idea of divine progression then.

Yeah, the Adam God Theory, it really focuses on that idea like even God the father had to grow and learn to reach his current state. Brigham Young historically, he was associated with this theory and it fit with his teachings that God was once an exalted man. Has a pretty straightforward answer to the question of how someone becomes a god. You go through a process of mortal life and progression.

Now, one of our sources, it mentions the Adamic language and that God's name in that language is man of holiness, which means he's a holy man. Does that support the Adam God Theory?

Well, yeah, man of holiness does suggest a divine being with humanlike qualities. But our source clarifies that it means he is a holy man, not that he became God the same way we might. And that difference is important because it separates it from the core idea of the Adam God Theory, which is all about a very direct lineage and progression.

So what ended up happening with that theory?

Over time, the Adam God Theory was not accepted as doctrine by the church. The understanding shifted to emphasize a clearer separation between God the father who exists eternally and the progression of humans.

When did that shift happen?

It was a gradual thing, mostly in the late 1800s and early 1900s. Church leaders clarified doctrine more and they emphasized God the Father's eternal nature separate from how humans progressed. So, knowing that the Adam God Theory isn't accepted anymore, what does all this mean for our potential to become like God?

Even though the Adam God Theory isn't accepted, the doctrine of humanity's potential for godhood, that's still a core teaching. Our sources are really clear about this potential coming through obedience to celestial law, that's doctrine and covenants 88:16-32.

And the fact that God the father is an eternal being, that doesn't diminish that potential at all.

So, we achieve this potential through Christ's Atonement, repentance, and the ordinances of the gospel. Is that right?

Exactly. The atonement helps us overcome our imperfections so we can progress. And the ordinances, they're the way we make covenants with God and receive divine power to help us along the way.

And in the end, eternal life, it's about living the kind of life that our eternal father lives. We see that in Moses 7:35 and Doctrine and Covenants 19:11.

You got it. It's not just living forever. It's living the same quality of life that God has. You know, a life full of love and joy and knowledge and service. So while God's perfection is an eternal truth, our journey as his creations, it's all about growing and progressing towards that

forever.

So wrapping up this deep dive, we see that God's perfection, it's a complex thing. It includes both his eternal unchanging divine attributes and the way his creations and influence are always expanding. And that can be seen as a progression of his divine work. The historical discussions, they show how the church's understanding of these big ideas has evolved over time. But the most important thing for you as our listener is that the potential for humanity to become like God, that's a central doctrine. It's rooted in this idea of eternal progression. Even though our journey to achieve godliness is different from God's eternal perfect state.

And as you said, this deep dive, it really touches on some massive theological questions. These are things people have been thinking about and debating for a really long time.

And that brings us to our final thought for today. How does understanding both God's unchanging nature and your potential for divine growth, how does that impact your own journey and what you hope for? What does it even mean to strive for perfection when God already is perfect? How does eternal progression, how does that shape how you see yourself in the universe and what you can become?

Those are some really good questions to ponder and you know, we encourage you to keep exploring and thinking about these things in your own life.

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