Use of Force Continuum: Marine Lessons and Capitol Police Procedures

Macky Outlaw and Jus continue their discussion on the use of force continuum — the step-by-step levels of response that law enforcement and military personnel are trained to follow, from presence and verbal commands all the way to deadly force as a last resort.

Drawing from their Marine Corps experience, they talk about how this structured approach keeps situations from escalating unnecessarily and protects everyone involved. They address heated online debates where many have claimed that an unarmed woman climbing through a broken window during the January 6 events at the Capitol should have been shot.

The guys examine the specifics of that incident and dive into questions about whether the Capitol Police officer followed standard operating procedures. They discuss whether lower levels of the use of force continuum — such as clear verbal warnings and less-lethal options — were properly considered before deadly force was used.

They keep the conversation grounded in training principles, accountability, and consistency in how force is applied, regardless of the political moment. No cheering for any side — just straightforward talk about rules, reality, and what the evidence shows in high-pressure situations.

This episode is for anyone interested in law enforcement standards, military discipline, and honest examination of controversial cases.

Tune in for a measured look at a topic that still divides people years later.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

All right, Juice, we're back with another episode here. All right. We're talking about your poor old man dog he got. Yeah. What's his name again? Brutus. Brutus. Brutus, like Caesar. Et tu Brutus. Et to etu Brutate. I've met Brutus before. Yep. No, he didn't know who I was. He couldn't see me. No, can't see you. He smells of you.

SPEAKER_01 0:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:18

He'll smell you and then go lay down. Yeah. He's a good boy. He could care less if you petted him or not. Yeah, he likes getting pet. Does he? Yeah. Maybe by you. Me, he was just kind of like whatever. We're going back to sleep.

unknown 0:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

It's time to sleep that day, I guess. He has sciatica. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:33

He said his back, you don't think he's going to last much longer? Nah, he's 11 years old. His back is really bad. Did you rescue that one? Yeah, he's a rescue.

SPEAKER_02 0:42

Okay. Would it ever get to the point where you'd put him down? Yeah. Would it? Okay. I don't like them seeing him.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Yeah, it's going to kill me when it happens. We're going to find you a new one though. No, no. I can't do it anymore. You want to drop one off at your house, so your daughter would not let you get rid of it. Oh, a dog? Oh, yeah, she'll let me get rid of a dog. Oh. Cat. She's a cat person. If it's a cat, I'm done. She she comes in crying if she sees a kitten walking down the road. It's got a little water on it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:11

But uh not gonna be good. So we got two golden retrievers, and they're the most needy animals. Yeah. We're their we're their we are their emotional support humans.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

Yes. So they That's very nice of you.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

They're all over us all the time. And uh I don't know, man. They'll come in there and wake me up in the middle of the night. Like they'll post, they'll post up like you know, go and get in formation. It's time to go out at 1 a.m. Oh, nice, nice.

SPEAKER_01 1:33

They don't wake my wife up though. Well, no, you're you're the one. You're the dad that's gotta take them out. That human.

SPEAKER_02 1:39

I don't sleep great anyway, so they know I'm up. I'm probably snoring, so they're like, he's dying with Sabin.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

Out of all the people we know, you and I I think have the worst sleep patterns.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

I can sleep good early. Like if I go to bed at nine, I sleep good till about midnight. That's all over after that. Yeah, yeah. I get about three hours average and it's done. And I'll be up and down. Yeah. But yeah, those two dogs are crazy. Now we got you've seen Buddy, the one at the little looks like a sausage.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:07

It's all colored up, funny. Yeah. He showed up here years back about half dead, I guess, crawny and all that. So we started feeding him oat milk cream pie, whatever he wants, you know. Right. We were doing work at this place, and we all I had over here was oat milk cream pies. Yeah. So I gave him those and he stayed forever. Yeah, now he's a diabetic. Now he's so he got he uh had some problems with one of his foot, feet, so we took him to the vet.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:30

And they did like an x-ray, they put him under to sex-ray his whole body.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:33

He had pins in his hips. What? So somebody spent some money on him. Like at one point.

SPEAKER_01 2:38

Maybe he got hit by a car at one point.

SPEAKER_02 2:40

He was loved by somebody. They took care of him at one point. Good. He's a good little dog though. He makes he's our doorbell. Oh, yeah. Nobody's coming up to the house. He won't hurt him, but he barks. He acts mean. Yeah. He'll bark and he sleeps in the girl.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

That's a good warning sign.

SPEAKER_02 2:55

Yeah. He's funny. Now he'll eat, boy. Them other two dogs are twice as big as him, and they eat together, they eat half as much as him. So I don't know. But he's just a fatty. He's just making up for being small in stature. For almost dying. Yeah. Being a street dog. Alright, Juice, we're back on this again, and we're hammering this. It's like a dead horse. We're beating it to death.

SPEAKER_01 3:15

What what are we hammering?

SPEAKER_02 3:16

Deadly Force. We talked in a previous episode about Ashley Babbitt. Then another one we hit it up again how the left is hammering us online because they're saying everybody should have been murdered at January 6th.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

Well, they watched a lot of Kojak and you know SVU when they were growing up. So they're they're attorneys now.

SPEAKER_02 3:34

We're going to get into the legal legality legalities. Uh-huh. I wish we had a lawyer here. I wish Josh was here. He could hit. Yeah. He might not comment on this though. He might be like, I don't know. We could see though. But uh talk about what actually deadly force is and what imminent danger means and all that. Okay. So I want to read it out. So deadly force isn't a broken windows or trespass. That's in Graham versus Connor. Right. Supreme Court. They judge what by what reasonable officer would believe in the exact split second, a totality of the circumstances. I don't get much more lawyer than that.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

I love that. Totality of the circumstances.

SPEAKER_02 4:12

Standard policy. This is the Capitol Police standard operating procedure. Use lethal force only if you reasonably reasonably fear imminent death or serious bodily injury to yourself or others. No deadly force is used for property damage or trespassing or unlawful entry. Correct. That's what it says out of their book. It's right there. And then they have this, they have their thing that they do. They start with presents, verbal commands, lethal weapons, batons, OC spray, and shields. Lethal is the absolute last resort. Well, it's they're just going up their use of force matrix. Right. Work for the State Department, and we went through all that baton. We we didn't carry OC spray overseas, but we did have batons. You used verbal commands. You showed you showed your weapon with the intent to use it. You had that in there. And then if they kept coming at you, you were able to use your weapon, you didn't press the trigger first. No. And we on our when we were static in camp and out on the streets when we had security perimeters up, we had a lot of people walk in there perimeter. Of course. Sometimes they were just lost. Sometimes they had mental handicaps. Sometimes they were just protesters. But we did not press the trigger first. Right. We used physical deterrence like armed vehicles. We parked them in certain places where they couldn't get past them. We talked to them, and then we got we raised their elevation of our energy with our voice. And then we would use raise a weapon with intent to use it at times. Right. Rarely did we shoot anybody for simple raking a perimeter.

SPEAKER_01 5:48

Didn't I've never had to shoot somebody because they broke a window in a building. Or broke your security perimeter. Yeah. It just it doesn't happen. They don't have a weapon in their hands, right? Right. Basically, you they they have to be actively engaged in this is just layman's terms now.

SPEAKER_02 6:05

It's not we're not we'll go ahead and say this. We're not lawyers and cannot give legal advice.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

Yeah. Okay, there we go. But layman's terms, if they're engaged in a forcible felony, they could be raping somebody, they could be shooting at somebody, they could be strangling somebody. You can use deadly force. They could be pointing their muzzle at your face, those kind of things. Yes. And I've been shot, so I wish I would have had a gun so I could have returned fire at that time.

SPEAKER_02 6:32

Even at that point, even if you are shot and they disengage. You have to disengage. And you shoot them, there's going to be some questions. Now, you could argue, hey, I was under duress because I was losing blood, those kind of things. Correct. So, but there's still questions that come up. Hey, was this a stand-your-ground opportunity?

SPEAKER_01 6:50

If they shoot you and then immediately turn around and start running, and you're returning fire and you hit them in the back, you're at fault. I've seen it where they were not acting aggressively towards you at that time. Right.

SPEAKER_02 7:04

I've seen it where insurgents, an active gun battle, killed Americans, and then they laid down their weapons, and American medics went and tended to their wounds. Yep. I've seen it. But they quit fighting, so we couldn't keep killing. Yes. That's a flaw being the United States.

SPEAKER_01 7:23

We have a heart kind of thing. Yeah. Which is You gotta find it. Yours is black, but we gotta find it. I've got a tiny black Grinch heart. I really do. And the older I get, the smaller that heart gets.

SPEAKER_02 7:36

So back to Ashley Babbitt. The left on social media is saying she was a threat, and they're the big thing they're saying, oh, she was breaking into the speaker's chambers. She was trying to kill the speaker.

SPEAKER_01 7:47

The speaker wasn't in there. No. And she was entering a broken window.

SPEAKER_02 7:53

Yeah. And the there was no there was no stop, police, nothing. No. It was just a shot to the aorta, basically. Nick the order, and she was done.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

And if you watch the video, the guy was posted up just waiting for his opportunity to put one in somebody.

SPEAKER_02 8:10

Right.

SPEAKER_01 8:10

My personal opinion. Right.

SPEAKER_02 8:12

And uh yeah, I mean, he did not handle that properly. No. So, and they're all like, they were they were breaking into state or federal property. Okay. Okay, and Michigan State Capitol, April 30th, 2020. Armed protesters with AR-style rifles stormed inside, entered the Senate gallery overlooking lawmakers, open carry state. They were yelling, protesting lockdowns, no shots fired, no death. Police made one arrest for something minor. Right.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

What happened there?

SPEAKER_02 8:49

Officers de-escalated, de-escalated and contained the protesters. De-escalated. It's a key phrase in this whole thing. You had Portland, where they actually took over the police department. Yeah. They actually took it over. Yes. The entire building. The police were like, we're overwhelmed, but we're not going to try to fight this right now. Let them have it. We'll come back later. Okay, here you go. And you got the No Kings protest that went on this weekend where they actually infiltrated an ICE federal ICE facility. Federal building. Nobody got killed.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

No.

SPEAKER_02 9:25

Some of them got arrested, but nobody got killed.

SPEAKER_01 9:27

No, if we actually had a king, they wouldn't have been having that protest. No. I don't understand the no kings thing at all. Neither do I.

SPEAKER_02 9:34

At all.

SPEAKER_01 9:35

I mean, I I kind of do. They have no working. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:40

Moving. Yeah. I saw one thing that Donald Trump got more fat women off the couch this weekend than Jenny Craig. Yes. And I applaud him for that. My apologies if you're a little overweight. It was just a funny joke. I'm fat. Juice has got a ton of. I didn't go to the No Kings rally.

SPEAKER_01 9:56

You didn't paint your hair blue and pretty much. No, we don't. We don't have a king. I don't know where they come up with this garbage.

SPEAKER_02 10:02

I'm going to say it again. There's a difference between liberal and leftists. There is. Liberal is the hey, live and let live. Let me live my life. You live your life. All those things. I'm good with those folks. Yeah. Now the left is, they want communism. They want to be in charge. They want to uh They're the violent side. They are violent. And uh Charlie Kirk talked about it. The left is violent. They don't know how they can't debate, they won't debate, they don't know how they don't use facts.

SPEAKER_01 10:28

Yeah. I've got somebody yelling at me because I said let's not act childish on a post. And they're accusing me of being combative and you attacked me and cussing me out, calling me a low-life scumbag pedophile supporting moron with no intelligence. And I'm like, wow.

SPEAKER_02 10:46

That pedophile thing is just tired.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

Yeah, I'm just sick of it. If if if the Democrats had any proof, if there was something there, they that would have been all over the news. One of them or more would have leaked it all.

SPEAKER_02 11:00

That's just it's old. We need to come up with something new. The king, whatever. Yeah. Anyway.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

Whatever.

SPEAKER_02 11:07

That's who's hammering us on social media because you know they're happy that she got killed. That MAGA person got killed. They've been celebrating the death of Charlie Kirk for six months. Right. They are leftists, not liberals. Right. But they'll support somebody like George Floyd.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

Yeah. Anything opposite to the right. Yeah. Okay. And and don't get us wrong, it's a shame anybody loses their life that way. Right. But when you're actively fighting and trying to hurt law enforcement, you kind of reap what you sow. You got what you asked for. FAFO.

SPEAKER_02 11:42

Right. We got a lot of those comments about Ashley Babbitt said she got what she asked for.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

Not really.

SPEAKER_02 11:49

Asked play stupid games, get stupid prizes, all those things.

SPEAKER_01 11:52

Yeah, but she wasn't trying to kill that officer. Yeah. She wasn't trying to run him over with a car.

SPEAKER_02 11:58

Based on the Capitol Police standard operating procedures, you start with presence, verbal commands, less than lethal options, batons, OC spray, and shields.

SPEAKER_01 12:08

Yes. And you don't go because somebody broke in a window. You don't go from presence to deadly force just because they're entering a window. You have to meet each level. It's a continuation. Yes. You can't just jump levels. Now it may go, it may happen in one second, but you're still going up that matrix. You can't just because they're at this level, you jump one higher. Haha, I'm going to show you. Right. No, it doesn't work that way. Right.

SPEAKER_02 12:34

Yeah, and I don't I've me and you have lived this our whole life, and some people online, they're TikTok specialists, and they have no idea what they're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 12:43

No, but they get to say whatever they want because they don't have a fear of getting punched in the mouth.

SPEAKER_02 12:48

As Mike Tyson said.

SPEAKER_01 12:50

Yeah. That's what social media is. Everybody got a plan until they get punched in the face.

SPEAKER_02 12:53

No, his he he actually said a smarter one. He said that social media has created created a society where people can say whatever they want, not get their nose busted.

SPEAKER_01 13:02

Yeah. And that's true. Because when we were growing up, you didn't have social media to talk trash. Yeah. You had to talk trash in front of the person. Or that person approached you if you talked it to somebody else. Either way, you were getting punched in the face. Right. Or you were punching somebody in the face.

SPEAKER_02 13:21

But the left, they're a group. If they take control of America, people like you and I will be in the work camps. They'll confiscate our land.

SPEAKER_01 13:29

Yeah, it's going to be a sad day. It's going to be communism. They're going to have to put me in confinement because I am going to show my butt all day, every day.

SPEAKER_02 13:36

They'll do like it's going to be like 1950s Soviet Union. That's what it's going to look like. So you'll get a small group in power. No, I absolutely believe that.

SPEAKER_01 13:45

Get rid of the opposition, is what they're going to do. Liberals being in charge? I'm even good with that. It's the lefties that are the issue.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

Right. The left wing. Once again, there's a difference between left wing and liberal. So liberals are the 70s, 60s people.

SPEAKER_01 14:01

And we're not just picking on lefties.

SPEAKER_00 14:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

There's also far right extremists. Who's this Fuentes guy? I've been seeing him pop up on stuff.

SPEAKER_02 14:10

I have no clue who he is. I don't even know where he came from. I've been seeing him pop up. I read a little bit about him. He's a he does he does he only believes white is right and all that kind of crazy stuff.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:21

Which is wrong. Well, yeah. It goes against everything. But they're saying that Trump loves him and all this stuff. I'm like, Yeah, I don't I didn't never seen that anywhere. I don't know. He might have shook hands with him one day at a meeting, you know, when there was three hundred. You know, there's probably 300 other people there. Yeah. Quintez was in the line. But yeah, he's a radical right wing. That's an example of a radical or right winger. And I I have no use for those people either. Charlie Kirk wasn't a radical or right winger. No. He was a patriot that wanted conservative beliefs in America, is what he wanted. And there's nothing wrong with that. Yeah, no. He would he would actually just have discussions. Yeah. As that comedian, I forgot his name, said that Charlie was kind of like a Steve Irwin situation. He was swimming with a stingrays. Yeah. He would go in and debate, he would go on college campuses and debate blue hair nose ring wearing college kids that love to have sex with transgender people.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

And the greatest thing in the world was he wasn't disrespectful about it. No, he wasn't. No. He spoke to him like an educated adult.

SPEAKER_02 15:24

Now, if you said stupid stuff, he'd say, hey, that was dumb.

SPEAKER_01 15:26

Yeah. Which is fine. Well, I mean, you if you're pointing something obvious out, that's fine.

SPEAKER_02 15:31

But back to where we're you know, we're getting over to the leftists, that's who's hammering us online over this shooting thing.

SPEAKER_01 15:36

Well, you know, go get some of Rob Schneider's, you know, lefty tears alcohol and enjoy yourself.

SPEAKER_02 15:45

Right. You know, I've offered all of them to come on here live and let's have a discussion. They never take you up on it.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

Well, I wish one of them would. Yeah, I would we'd give them coffee and hang out. Yeah, we'll hang out with you. We'll even I'll buy you a pizza.

SPEAKER_02 15:59

I bet they would not be as violent and as aggressive in person. Probably not. They would we'd probably end up like having common ground if you really got to. So somewhere we'd find some. Absolutely. But yeah, we don't think this Ashley Babbitt shooting was the proper use of deadly force. Nope. He did not go through the threat matrix properly, as outlined by his own standard operating procedure, and 99% of police, law enforcement, and federal agencies use. I work for one. Juices work for them all, and it's kind of verbatim through them all, what I've seen.

SPEAKER_01 16:35

So yeah, it's it's crazy. I mean, there there are people out there that need killing. She wasn't one. She wasn't one.

SPEAKER_02 16:42

It was an unfortunate event. Now she should have probably been arrested for whatever. Oh, absolutely. I I would say, yeah, arrested, you know, for breaking a window, trespassing, whatever. You know, you name it. Now she went hands-on with that guy, or she had a weapon in her hand and was threatening his life.

SPEAKER_01 16:58

Even if she went hands-on, that you still just because they weren't hands-on, you doesn't mean you shoot him. You put cuffs on him. Yeah. Uh it's just and she wasn't. If you watch the video, she wasn't being aggressive.

SPEAKER_02 17:13

She had one foot in the window, basically, and bam, she was done.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

She wasn't pointing at him, she wasn't threatening him, she wasn't trash talking him about I'm gonna come in there and whip your butt. And she she didn't say anything. No. And then pow. Shot her dead. Yeah. And then uh he's a real man.

SPEAKER_02 17:29

He's a hero. So yeah. But anyway, that's the leftists, not liberals. There's a difference. Yeah. Keep saying that. All right. That's all we got for this one, Juice. We'll be back with another topic soon. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_01 17:43

Please come debate us.

SPEAKER_02 17:45

Come on over. We got please. We'll buy lunch, have coffee. Yeah, I'll I'll even buy the lunch. We'll put you on live on the on the over the screen here. If you want I don't care, we'll do it either way you want. But it'll be fun. Yeah. Um we've got I'm gonna I said we were done, but we got a liberal lawyer who wanted to come on. He's out of gadget. Liberal, liberal, not leftists.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 18:06

I'd love to get his insights on some of this stuff. It would be fantastic. And that's it, Juice. I'll say it again. Number two, we're done for this time. Okay. You good with that? Yeah. Tell everybody bye. Bye.