Hidden Threads: De-Escalation, Split-Second Decisions, and the Murdaugh Trial Twist

In this episode of Hidden Threads, Macky and Jus dive into one of the most critical and controversial aspects of modern policing: de-escalation. Drawing from real-world encounters, we break down what effective de-escalation looks like, where officers succeed, where situations spiral, and the split-second human factors that can turn routine encounters into national headlines.

We also unpack the latest developments in the Alex Murdaugh case, including the granting of a new trial and what that means for the justice system, appeals, courtroom procedure, and public trust. Was this a legitimate legal correction or another twist in one of the most scrutinized criminal cases in recent memory?

A candid discussion from an investigator’s perspective on law enforcement decision-making, high-profile justice, and the realities behind the headlines.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

All right, juice. We're recording here. We are. What do you think of that? We're back. New microphones. I see that. See what they sound like? New cameras, new microphones. I got free hands now. I don't have to have a mic in front of my face. Oh, well, you gotta do this then.

SPEAKER_02 0:14

Yeah, I'm gonna be like this, like I'm a thinker. And you have to every once in a while move your hands, public speaking.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

Like Plato, Aristotle, or something, the thinker. Right, the thinker. I'm gonna go like this. Yeah. So what you been up to, man? It's since you lost your dog. Nothing. Nothing on it. Working on a bike, painting house, getting tattooed. You got any tattoo? Yeah. On your butt? So I can't see it if it's not. No, my ribs and my stomach. You're covering up the fat. You can't cover up all this fat.

SPEAKER_02 0:41

We got a shirt on that says, never forget we live among giants. Correct. I had to wear this shirt because my buddy Scott pointed out that all my shirts are either gray or black. Well, gray or black's good for TV. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

Well, YouTube, whatever world.

SPEAKER_02 0:54

If you have animals, you know the fur shows up on everything that's dark. Okay. So that's why I have more gray shirts. But he pointed out that I I was always in my gray shirts. So I wore this, so he'll shut his pie hole. Shut his pie hole.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

Yeah. Well, like it says, never forget we live among giants. Correct. This is because it's Red Friday. And everybody's a giant Tice. Well, even three-year-olds are taller than me. I don't know about that. Oh yeah. They're skinnier. Well, anybody's skinnier than me. So they make fun of Juice Day or what? Yes. Okay, good. All right. So one of the last few last episodes we did, we talk about de-escalation of police force, federal agents, military, we have to go through de-escalation. Military is a little different if you're in the offense doing an attack. There's no de-escalation. We've already figured out, hey, these dudes are going to get killed, right? Right. But if you're doing policing operations or doing security, those kind of things, de-escalation is a thing in the military. Yeah. And I I went through the training in the State Department. We were required to de-escalate because we were not in an attack mode. We were not in assault mode. We were in protection mode. Right. We wanted to get our principal out of there. And if that meant de-escalating until we could get him in the car and leave, we'd do it. Right. Now sometimes you had to go, you know, ramp up the go up the ladder a little bit. Sometimes you gotta go hands-on. Sometimes lead gotta go downrange. Sometimes lead poisoning gets them. It happens. But anyway, we had this smart guy on TikTok saying that there's no case law requiring police to de-escalate. Oh really? I pulled, I think it was six federal and about 36 state level. All kinds, not just conservative liberal.

SPEAKER_02 2:38

Obviously, he wasn't a cop. He wasn't in law enforcement. I don't think he's a lawyer either. So yeah, I don't I don't think he pulled security at Burger King either.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

Right. Uh he's never won the uh or wore the Allied Universal shirt, you know.

SPEAKER_02 2:51

Oh yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:52

Yes. Pretty sure he wasn't around with Pinkerton either. That's another topic. We could talk about Allied University, another university, Allied Universal another day. I've had some I've had I did investigations into them. So that's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 3:05

But anyway, they I mean if if if he says they don't have it, he obviously didn't look deep enough, so he's just being a keyboard commando, and he has no experience. He's never been to the academies. I've been to several corrections academies, law enforcement academies for agencies, their SOPs. They they teach you to de-escalate. That's why they have the use of force matrix. You can go up, you can go down. You don't have to go up and stay up. You're every situation is a dynamic situation. It never stays the same, it moves. Right. So you just move along with it.

SPEAKER_01 3:43

Yeah. And I've gone through the worldwide protective services course with the State Department. Oh I went through it twice because they upgraded it. We had to go through it again. But the whole thing was use of force. We're not just going out randomly killing people and cracking noses. No. Now one guy in the comments said, hey, handcuffs are a good de-escalation. I agree. Handcuffs will calm people down. You can always take them off. They do. Putting them in the back of a car sometimes calms them down. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes they start to get it. It irritates them. Yeah. But something, anything to get you to separate from that aggression, handcuffs, car, whatever, walk away is a de-escalation tactic.

SPEAKER_02 4:26

I was usually pretty good with getting people to de-escalate. Yeah. You just gotta talk to them like human beings. You gotta find out what their little niche is they want to talk about. Mine, I just look at a tattoo and say, oh man, nice tattoo. And it changes the dynamics. And then it turns into another conversation. You can get people to de-escalate. The hardest ones are the ones that are on dope.

SPEAKER_01 4:51

Yes, because they're having a drug-induced psychotic event. Right. So uh whatever that whoever's whatever their chemical makeup is, that drug affects you differently and makes you do stupid stuff. So other than that, you can you can get people to de-escalate. I've had alcohol-induced psychosis where I didn't have memory. I've had that. They're like, you know what you did last night? I'm like, don't tell me. Yeah, don't tell me. I've got a good idea what I did. I'm not in jail right now, so don't tell me. Yeah. But anyway, the case law, all of them said that the officer had the responsibility to de-escalate, and they didn't. They went from zero to a hundred with hands-on, throwing punches to the red areas, pulling out their weapon and using it. You know, all those things. They didn't shout, show, I forget what it is. Presence, shout, show, shove, whatever it was. Oh, officer's presence. Yeah. Yeah. All those things, right? They didn't do any of that. They just went from zero. A lot of them were mentally handicapped people, and the officer came in with a gun drawn. And the person didn't respond to commands, and they just shot him, which is murder, right? Absolutely. And there was others where one cop tried to de-escalate and the other one overrode that de-escalation, went hands-on and killed somebody. So there's all kind of case law out there. Sure there is. And it's it's a long history of policing in the United States. You know, we got 200 years of or more, 250 years of policing. So there's a lot of historical data out there.

SPEAKER_02 6:19

There is. And it's a good thing you get keyboard commandos that just type whatever they think they saw in SVU special victims, whatever, with Liv and Finn Tutuola.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

Well, one of them is the fat guy off of Full Metal Jacket. The fat guy.

SPEAKER_02 6:38

Oh. Private Pyle.

SPEAKER_01 6:39

Yeah, he's Private Pyle. He's made a good career out of that cop show he's on there. Sure. He's been on there 12 years or something. I've seen that I think once or twice. What a job, man. You get to play a cop on TV and just make good money doing it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:52

That's pretty cool. You watch what what was it with Andy Sippowitz? Hill Street Blues or something. Oh, I watched that when I was a my dad watched it.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

Oh, yeah. Sometimes he'd make me go in the other room. I don't know why, because they had some pretty that was pretty raw TV for back then. It was. They had some hard topics.

SPEAKER_02 7:07

But that's where I think most of the people that that make uneducated comments, they get their legal expertise from is television. Right. Great place.

SPEAKER_01 7:17

Keep doing it. Yeah, so that's that. That's keyboard commando saying there's no case law regarding the escalation. So go back to the drawing board. I agree with the guy that mentioned handcuffs. Yeah. Restrain them, man. I don't mean there's some of the case law I read. I got into it. I went down that rabbit hole, right? Right. I learned a lot. So there are some where they're in restraints and they went ahead and killed them anyways. Yeah. Which there's no justification there. Those all those guys are in jail. Yeah. Right. And I don't know. It's just a uh now if they're in handcuffs and they continue to resist, there's only limited resistance, right? They can kick you. So you hog tie them. But all of them, every case, every one of the cases said, once you've got them restrained, you lower your Yeah, because there's no need to keep that that level of level of aggression.

SPEAKER_02 8:12

Yeah. On the use of force matrix, there's there's no reason to stay up there. So once they're controlled, back off.

SPEAKER_01 8:21

That's like the kid in Memphis we talked about, Tyree Nichols. They had him restrained and continued to beat the crap out of them. Yeah, why? I don't know. I know they're I know everybody's human, their blood gets up and all that, but man, you're a professional, you got that oath to protect the civilians, right? Absolutely. And even if you're having to go hands-on with one, you try your best not to kill.

SPEAKER_02 8:42

Yeah, but it doesn't matter if he wasn't armed and somebody that's obeying the law or somebody that's breaking the law. They're still human beings. You can't just you know, end their life right there just because you had a bad day. And your heart rate's up. You de-escalate.

SPEAKER_01 8:57

All right, we got our it wasn't our topic for today, but we went off, right? Yes. On a topic. Let's talk about Murdahl. New stuff. Today, today is May 15th, 2026. It is May, right? Yes. Okay, May 15, 2026. Some of y'all, if you haven't been living under a rock, you know that Alex Murdoch killed Murdoch killed his son and his wife a few years back and got convicted of it. Yeah. Yesterday, a judge granted him a new trial, and it's legitimate too, if you look at it. That woman is stupid. I don't know her name, I don't have it up, but I'm gonna pull up the article here and we'll look at it a little bit. All right. This is for Entertainment Weekly, that hard-hitting news organization. Oh, yeah. They do have a good article about it, though. So this is by Rachel Schufeld. It was actually on the 13th, two days ago. All right. 2023, he was convicted of having murdered his wife and son. The case prompted a flurry of projects, including a fictional series on Hulu, documentaries, and podcasts. Hey, we're podcasters. I watched one of those documentaries, the short one, like a 30-minute one. It was good. Uh the South Carolina Supreme Court has now tossed out the conviction citing interference with the jury. Let's get down to the interference part. This woman trying to sell a book. All right. The decision to reverse the murder convictions was reached after the court found shocking jury interference by the court clerk. I keep getting pop-ups here, juice. Who worked with the jurors, according to the New York Times. Alex has said from day one he did not kill his wife and son. Alex Alex's lawyers, Dick. Ooh, what a name. Harpool Harpootlian. Harpootlian. We'll just call him Dick. All right. Hold Dick and Jim Griffin told the outlet we took look forward a new trial conducted consistent with the Constitution. All right. Lawyers for Alex had taken issue with the conduct of Rebecca Becky Hill, the clerk of the court, insisting that she had bias against the defendant. Hill later wrote in a book about the trial behind the doors of the justice that Murdahl murders and left her position. The story of the Murdah family has been retold. Projects the woman did this article, ain't get into it, but what she did, she went into the jury during the c during the trial, before and during, and said this shouldn't take long. This guy's guilty. Watch his body language. Yeah. Coached him. Coach the jury. The clerk of the court, I guess in South Carolina, is allowed to have contact. She's the one that coordinates all their lunches. Hey, let's go here and wait, wait here while the judge don't want you in here. Make sure they got water. Right. All those things. Facilitates the jury. And that that's fine. But you're not allowed, like your contact with them should be like, hey, do you want a sandwich or salad? You're not supposed to talk to them anything pertaining to the case. I think in Alabama, the only people that contact the jury are the bailiffs, the cops, which they don't say nothing to them other than, hey, do you want Coke or Diet Coke? And then the judge can talk to them, but the judge has to talk to them with people. It has to be recorded. Like everybody can see it, both sides. Now in South Carolina, I guess the clerk handles that. And she fumbled it. Big time. And she wrote about it in her book. Well, you know, it sells books. If she wouldn't have written that book and admitted to it, this would never happen. Right. But jury tampering is a thing.

SPEAKER_02 12:29

It is. But even in the article, it said they were looking for a reason that violated the Constitution. It doesn't say our evidence, the evidence was no good. It didn't say anything about the the case itself. It was a flaw that they can use the Constitution.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

Right. That's a flaw in the United States justice system. And we call it a justice system. We don't have courts of justice. We have courts of rules. Right. That makes sense to you? Yeah. Murdoch's probably guilty of sin. Exactly. But because this woman tripped over a rule, he gets a new trial. That's how we're set up. I'm sorry it's like that, but that's just how it is. Now, if you go in other places, they have courts of justice where they'd have been like, well, he's still guilty. We're not worrying about this. Right. I'm not sure which one on to live in. I'm I prefer this one, I believe.

SPEAKER_02 13:21

Yeah, I'll I'll stay here.

SPEAKER_01 13:23

But there's a I think there's a line there where we're some lawyers should be like or judges should be like, this guy's guilty, man. Let's just look at this one part. You know what I mean? I don't know if they could do that or not, or the whole thing gets tossed.

SPEAKER_02 13:35

It's the whole thing. It's fruit of the poisonous tree. It's it's all kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 13:39

So that jury's no good anymore, right? So they're whatever they decided, they have to go back and do another one.

SPEAKER_02 13:44

Yep, it's gonna be all from the beginning again.

SPEAKER_01 13:47

That's no different if you stole evidence and planted it somewhere. Right. That evidence is no good. We have to go back and redo that part, right? Correct. It's just a grander scale because there's 12 people and they all made a decision based off what this woman told them.

SPEAKER_02 14:00

Well, I don't know if they made it based on what the woman told them, but the assumption is at least one listened.

SPEAKER_01 14:09

That gets into the you're innocent until proven guilty. She was saying, hey, he's guilty already. Right. Kind of there's a bunch of things that happen. Right.

SPEAKER_02 14:17

I just hate seeing people get off on technicalities when you know they're guilty as sin. Right.

SPEAKER_01 14:25

I think he killed his wife and kid right there next to the dog pen, wherever it was. He was out the out in the dog pen or something, right? Yeah, out of the horse track or something. Somewhere out in their big expensive thing. Yeah. Now I saw some people saying, oh, he's gonna get out of jail. And I'm like, no, he's not. He got some federal problems. Right. Um they got him on skimming clients because he's a personal injury lawyer. Right. Now my daughter, she asked me, said how he she said, so he gets a percentage of their case anyways. And how is he in trouble federally? And I said, we got to look at the state. So each state has a thing where personal injury attorneys can do what, a max percent, 10 to 20%. Some I think some states there's no max, so he can get away with it. But apparently, the feds said, hey, he had a contract where he said I take 20% of the proceedings, and then he was forging checks and all kinds of weird stuff and taking more. Right. And there was some forgery involved, some he would get the insurance checks, change them, cash them, and give a lesser amount to the client, those kind of things.

SPEAKER_02 15:27

So you know, I I lived over there for quite a while for several years. And and the low country in South Carolina gets a bad rap. It's like people come here, they think, oh, you know, inbred hillbilly, they're not very smart. I got news for you. They're they're smart individuals there, they're intelligent, same as here. Right. You just because you have a certain dialect or something, don't take that as a sign of non-intelligence. Is that the east coast or the west side? That's over Charleston and stuff, that's over on the east side of the country.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

I've been over there a lot. Yeah. They do sound funny. They do. Once you leave Columbus, Columbia, which one is it? Columbia. Columbia, and go out east, it starts changing. The uh and you got a country, and then it gets to Charleston, which is kind of city fied, but yeah, it's still because I live right outside of Charleston.

SPEAKER_02 16:22

I live near the Naval Weapons Station. Okay, yeah. So, yeah. I know, is it Beaufort or Buford? Beaufort.

SPEAKER_01 16:29

Beaufort, the air station. Those people around there sound real funny. They do. It bleeds up in North Carolina to you. They do, and they're right next to Paris Island. All them people sound funny. So we're gonna digress here a little bit. Paris, so there's a fancy golf course out there. Yeah. The resort golf course, and they play one of the big PGA tournaments there every year. Right. And there's a famous hole that goes out on like a peninsula out there. And we'd be when we were walking out there and they were playing that tournament, and they made us stop and look at it. And see all these people cheering in their hats, having beer and stuff. Really? Just to pun it, just to be mean. Look at that, y'all can be over there. And it's still like middle of, you know, we're on like day 40, so we got a ways to go, you know. Yeah, well, I didn't see any of that stuff going on. But they run you out on that dirt, is the dirt, I forgot where it was. You think Paris Island's huge. Yeah. Yeah. You think Paris Island's huge until you go back later. Yeah. It's like, good Lord, I got more property. I got more property here than they had out there.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

Now I've been out there in the last, I guess, 15 years, and they got a gigantic PX now and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_02 17:34

I was there in 16 when my nephew graduated.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

It changed a lot from when I was there. The PX when I was there, you know, they let you go in and get you razors and shaving cream and all that, like rush you through. They make you do that? Oh, we really we went through like the back and they had them in boxes.

SPEAKER_02 17:50

Oh no. We went through the recruit PX.

SPEAKER_01 17:53

Yeah, maybe that's what it was. It was like a little that was like a room this big. That's maybe what I was. They didn't have a big PX. I don't think it was like a shop at with a gas station.

SPEAKER_02 18:01

I went, there were still wooden barracks over on First Battalion. Right. My dad's when he went through in 59, his barracks was the last one standing over there. Really? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:10

I don't know, Parasilin, man. I will I've gone back a few times. Yeah, I've been back a couple. We were on vacation out there at Hilton Head, and it rained one day all day. Said, hey, let's go to Parasil and look around. And uh it was pool, it was cool, you know. Anyway, back to this. Yeah. Have you ever seen the other cases where the jury was tampered with?

SPEAKER_02 18:28

There have been several that that that's why you have all these laws and stuff. Well, the mobsters made it famous. Well, Sammy the Bull, he used to fix jurors.

SPEAKER_01 18:39

They used to kill jurors. Like, hey. Oh, they paid them all the time. They paid him, or if you didn't get play along, they'd put you in concrete shoes.

SPEAKER_02 18:46

So yeah, I listen to some of his podcasts. He's got a really good podcast. You get some insight into the mafia. Right. Hmm. Okay. But the mafia to me was a good thing. Really? In my hometown, it was Mob City. You didn't do things. You didn't like we see now, you didn't see that stuff back then. Everybody minded their P's and Q's because the mob wasn't going to put up with too much in their area. Right.

SPEAKER_01 19:16

So I've known people from New Jersey and up that way. Yeah. And now talking to their parents. You know, they're, and they said that the mob would take care of stuff. Yeah. They like if a guy was beating on his wife, oh, it wouldn't happen. They'd give him a chance. They'd take him out, bloody him up, and say if you do it again, we're gonna kill you. Yeah. And it wouldn't happen much. You know, again. No, that stuff didn't happen.

SPEAKER_02 19:39

Or now my hometown is just off the chain. It's it's nothing but crime, drugs, all kinds of stuff. You get regentrified areas and stuff?

SPEAKER_01 19:47

Oh they're trying to make it all hippie and everything?

SPEAKER_02 19:49

No, it's it's just a a melting pot right now. It's no longer, you know, the English, the German, the Irish, the Italians. It's everywhere. Sure. And with the influx came the drugs, the murders, all that stuff. Right. Do you have gambling up there? Yeah, they got the lottery and stuff. They have Indian casinos around? I have no idea if they have any up there now or not. I've been out of there since I'm 18. You'd have been to South Carolina, Florida, and here, right? I'm yeah, I've been all over the place, but Conus, I've stayed in the South.

SPEAKER_01 20:26

Okay. All right. So as a private investigator, I've investigated some of these where they said, hey, that thing the jury was messed with. We had one in particular, Antonio Gerardo, where we had jurors say, Yeah, the judge came back and told us that we should find this verdict. Yeah, see, judge can't do that. And that was outside of the hearing of both sides, because if the defense would have heard that, they'd be like, hey, flag that'd have thrown the penalty course. And he's still in prison right now, two life sentences. So I don't think he committed a murder. I don't think he was there. But he's got some stuff coming up though. We'll see what happens. But we tumped a baby.

SPEAKER_02 21:08

Now, if if the judge didn't like what the jurors found, he can overrule their finding.

SPEAKER_01 21:13

In Alabama. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:14

Not in Texas. No. Or certain states. Yes. Some states you can they they can supersede what the the jury finds.

SPEAKER_01 21:21

Now Alabama they get the guilty and innocence the jury does, but the punishment comes from the judge. Right. The jury can regul they make a recommendation. Right. It's kind of like the judges, hey, what does the public say about this thing? Yeah. In Texas, though, the judges like if they follow the rules, the jury gets the guilty, not guilty verdict and the punishment as well. Right. Because you had that FedEx driver out there recently that killed that little girl, he got a death penalty. Yeah. He pled guilty and still got the death penalty from the jury. So Yeah, he he needs to go. They need to turn him out in gin pop a little for a little while in the in the taxpayer burden.

SPEAKER_02 21:58

Yeah, I just want to put it out there. If there's any death penalty cases and they're convicted, I volunteer my time and my ammo to do the execution.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

Right. Yeah. You know, I I get I get people lose it and kill each other, second degree murder type.

SPEAKER_02 22:16

Heat of passion, stuff like that. When you do it to a kid, though. That's what I was getting at. You do it to a kid. I I want you to die as painfully and slowly as possible.

SPEAKER_01 22:27

He bumped into her with a truck, apparently, and was scared of what's gonna was gonna happen. So he took her out and raped her and killed her. Yeah. Why not just say, hey, get on the phone, FedEx. Yeah. She's not hurt, but I told her dad, kind of thing. You know what I mean? Yeah. He needs to be taken out, raped, and killed. You know, my kid, both of them since they were born, would be outside and the FedEx postman would come up, UPS or whatever. I think twice about it now. Yeah. So FedEx, who you hiring? I don't know. This guy was, if you read his test what his what he said to the cops, serious issues. Oh yeah. Problematic, man. Like the stuff he's done in the past. I don't know, man. But Murdo, though, you know, got off on a technic, not off, got a retrial based on a technicality. Right. Now, some legal experts are saying this may harm the federal case, too. That's a different jury, a different district, all of the different things.

SPEAKER_02 23:24

I don't see how a state uh court case is gonna affect the federal court case.

SPEAKER_01 23:31

That's a whole nother jury, whole nother DA, whole nother room. You know, it's a whole nother building, basically. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:36

They're they're getting them off on a technicality. That's all it is. They're getting them a retrial. Right. You know, there's there's people I know that have been accused of beating their girlfriend, and the only thing they said to me was not that I didn't do it. It's oh, she did this and she did that. Not once did this guy ever say I didn't do it. When the district attorney dropped the charges because there wasn't enough there for the district attorney to make a win on, so he dismissed the case. Instead of calling saying, I told you I didn't do it, all this guy sent out a message was free at last, free at last. Good gosh almighty, free at last or something. Yeah. Anyway. He did it. I mean, I I spoke to him, and you can tell by his body language, statement analysis, you know, the way he acted, he did it.

SPEAKER_01 24:29

But so I don't care how mad your wife or your girlfriend makes you, you can't knock their teeth out and put them in a sleeper hole. No. Can't do it? No. No. I mean, you can defend yourself, but they take it too far, you know. We got a case, well, former case, where the guy, they reconciled, and now they're and now this guy lost it, and he's on the run right now because he strangled his wife unconscious. Didn't kill her, and then hit the kid, the like a three-year-old. He's he's out running around right now. So anyway. He better have some good hiding spots. He's gonna, he's not gonna, his daddy's money ain't gonna get him out of that one, I don't think. So but it it's not like he did it for the money like Murdahl. He just this guy lost it and shouldn't be around children or women, probably. So all right, so Murdah gets a new trial. On a technicality, he didn't say I didn't he's always said he didn't do it.

SPEAKER_02 25:24

Yeah, come on. He there's the evidence shows a preponderance of the evidence shows that beyond a reasonable doubt he did it.

SPEAKER_01 25:33

We went through that evidence, I mean, on the podcast. Oh, yeah. And unless somebody stole his phone, that's the only way he would you know nobody stole his phone. Yeah, it was him. They said, Oh, there was two guns. And where's the other one? They found one, right? Yeah. Where's the other gun? I don't know. I don't know if they got both of them or not. Yeah, they they they got after the estates ballistic expert and all that stuff. But ballistics isn't a hard science either. No.

SPEAKER_02 26:00

When you get into shotguns and tooling marks, stuff like that, yeah, where you can look at the the rounds and you know, you have something physical you can rifling in the barrels and all that, and you know, where the the firing pin hit the primer and the the shape of the indentation, all that, that's good to go. It's hard when it comes to like shotguns and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

Unless you get the unless you get the primer, they can go off of that. Right. But those pellets they ain't getting crap off of that.

SPEAKER_02 26:30

No. But they are gonna go through like you know, the type of ammo, the box ammo, when it was bought, where it was bought. Right. I mean, there's more to it, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:41

Everybody always looks for a smoking gun. There's not a typically not a smoking gun like in Perry Mason.

SPEAKER_02 26:46

No.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

It's a preponderance of the evidence. Right. No. Wait a minute. Is it preponderance in yes. What's the other one in the civil?

SPEAKER_02 26:56

That is the the It's 51%. Yeah. 50 50 plus one.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

50 plus one. Yeah. So whatever. Uh yeah, it's 50% just over 50%. Yeah. It's less. Is that preponderance? Well, I'm gonna look it up while we're setting it in, Juice. I was getting ready to sign off. More likely than not. Right. Let's look it up, Juice. What do you think? Refers to sub preponderance refers to superiority and weight. Power imports are the greatest quantity amount, something most commonly used in civil law. Preponderance is civil. Beyond reasonable doubt. Beyond a reasonable doubt, which is like the close to 100% as we can get. Right. Right. It's more strict. That's what I'm getting at. Right. Some people's gonna say, oh, these guys are stupid. Well, you're right, we are a little bit, but I'm not always sitting around thinking the legal terms all day.

SPEAKER_02 27:50

Neither am I. Especially when I've worked all week and I worked third shift.

SPEAKER_01 27:53

Last night?

SPEAKER_02 27:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:54

What are you gonna do today?

SPEAKER_02 27:56

Work on my motorcycle. You're gonna sleep? Do you sleep on Fridays? I do for about an hour. And you go do stuff? Yeah, me and my daughter's got stuff planned, and I gotta work on the motorcycle today. So you going shopping? Or walking. Walking. I know, I know. Where? Down the road. She has At your house? Yeah, she's gonna be. She can run over over there. No. Okay. She is she has convinced me that we need to start walking. Okay. For your daddy's heart. And because I'm fat.

SPEAKER_01 28:26

Well, you're old, so who cares? We're gonna get off here for now and we'll be back with another exciting topic. Several topics today. Yes. We'll get back at it here in just a bit. We'll see you soon. Say bye juice. Bye juice. Do it.