Building a career in Sound Art with Monica Lim

The double life is a familiar concept for many musicians and interdisciplinary artists. By day, one thing; by night, another. But what does it take to turn that passion into a full-time career? Monica Lim, a Malaysian-Australian sound artist and composer, traded a conventional path of a tax accountant for the creative highs of fashion design, and ultimately, sound art. Her work now spans installations, performance art, contemporary dance, and new-instrument-making. I caught up with her while she was developing 'Opera for the Dead', which premiered at Melbourne's AsiaTOPA Festival. We dove into what drives her, the impact of AI on music, how Project Eleven—which she co-founded with her partner—supports experimental artists across Melbourne, and her experiences navigating sound art as a mum and PhD student.

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Transcript

Intro

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I actually hate technology. I have a lovely relationship with technology.

Opera for the Dead

SPEAKER_01 0:06

You're listening to Serial Music Talks Podcast. I'm your host, Ziva, aka Lucia, and you're here to listen to some really honest conversations I have with Melbourne musicians, music producers, sound designers about breaking into new markets, music hostile, imposter syndrome, writer's block, posting on social media, ah, a lot of struggles. Every time, yet I guess I'm in sound. It should be my expertise. Wow. Thanks for your patience. So here I am in South Bank in a coffee shop that's called Coffee Godot. It's a beautiful day in Melbourne. And as last time, I again have technical problems, but I luckily resolved them, at least I hope. But I'm just about to meet Monica Lim. Monica Lim is an Australian Malaysian sound artist and a composer whose work spans installations, performance art, contemporary dance, and new instrument making. And I'm really happy to be able to catch up with her because she's right in the middle of the development of her latest work that's called Opera for the Dead, a work that has just been premiered last week at the Asia Topa Festival here in Melbourne. We've talked about AI in music, AI in technology, AI in music technology, about collaborations with others. How does one begin? Where does one begin? Do you just uh bluntly approach other people with your ideas? How to avoid or ignore imposter syndrome and writer's blog? And yeah, how to change careers, how to navigate this uh very complex field where you're an interdisciplinary artist, but also when you're in general an artist who probably has a lot of skills and a lot of different lives. There's so many things that I want to ask you. Thank you for taking the time because I know it's uh it's quite an intense period for you, right? No, thanks for having me. When we met you mentioned that you're literally in the middle of your development. Uh yes, uh for an uh a contemporary opera. I'm not sure if it's like it's not really straight opera. So how is it going? It's going well, just a lot of things to get done, and again, a lot of technology, so as you know, yeah. I won't, I won't, I don't wanna, you know, jinx it, but it usually it's like it all works, right? You bring it. Can you tell us a little bit about it? Sure, yeah. Um, I'm working with a bunch of great artists. My uh co-lead artist is uh Mindy Mengwang, who is also a composer and uh amazing good jum player that's a Chinese harp. Uh we've got five musicians essentially on stage, but we're all on individual stages that are movable around the space. We use that as a way to transform the space. We're looking at at uh Chinese rituals of afterlife and and death, and I saw this idea of transformation. And yeah, it combines uh projections, it combines electroacoustic music, but also score, traditional music, and immersive space. Wow, that sounds like a quite a complex uh piece. Yeah, quite complex in the sense that I think just technically because everything has to be movable, then everything has to be wireless.

Digital Afterlife Culture

SPEAKER_02 3:38

A lot of wireless networks everywhere.

Collaboration as a Creative Method

Ideas Come From Wine cooler conversations

SPEAKER_01 3:40

But are you happy with how it is going so far? Yes, I'm really happy how it's going. I think it's going to be uh well, hopefully I think uh people are going to be touched by it. That's what we want to, you know, to have a work that actually connects and touches people's emotions about their loved ones or people who have uh you've mentioned like old Chinese rituals of uh life and death. Is it also um a mean to explore how technology could um preserve some of those intangible heritages? Well, I think there's an interesting relationship with technology and some of the rituals now. We've got all these really ancient rituals, you know, because we've been dealing with them from how to cope with them for a very long time. But in in Asia, we've come to this point where a lot of those spiritual or ritualistic uh elements have become digitized. For example, you it's very common to have digital reefs now instead of real flow, and you please an LED read, and then you have now QR codes on the graveyards where you can read about the person by scanning a QR code. Really? Interesting uh ways in which yeah, we've found a way to make some things more convenient. I really didn't know that that it went that far. Yeah, yeah. And just also contradictions, like yeah, for example, the Chinese often um, you know, there's this ancestor worship, right? So when you you have to keep burning offerings for your ancestors so that it manifests in your afterlife. For how long? Well, all during the the funeral, but then we have all these anniversaries where you just continue doing that. And and this idea that but it becomes ridiculous because now people are now burning paper condominiums and Chanel handbags and arme, yeah. Wow, yeah, wow, wow, wow. Okay, this is a completely different topic that I would love to explore, but uh maybe just be mindful of the time. Well, I guess you mentioned that there's like six performers on stage, like artists, right? So I did a bit of snooping. I did my due diligence and uh hey, I am a researcher, so it would be a bit like hopefully I did my I did it well. Uh I've I've read that you really prefer working in teams. Do you love working in teams? I'm curious about your work and the way so far I approach my work um in sound and in music and research has always been uh alone, very lonely. Uh so I'm just curious how come? Have you always worked in teams? Uh yeah, I do. How does it like you approach people? Yeah, weird, right? Because you're right, most composers were all very like introverts. And I I am an introvert actually, but um, for some reason, I don't know why. I've just always ended up working in this collaborative projects. I think maybe because I'm really interested in interdisciplinary or multidisciplinary. It seems like for me, sound is um, and maybe because I'm part of this generation that we're used to multimodal, right? We're used to sound and visuals and everything. So far, I I have always wanted to work with some sort of visual element in my conformances, whether it's um working with a dancer, you know, or dance or through screen, or even through my own body. That's something I've always been attracted to, and because of that, I think I've just naturally fallen into this into these projects with other people, and I've really enjoyed it. I mean, it's it's like technology, it's a love-hate thing. Like working in big groups can be so frustrating and difficult, right? You got to negotiate, compromise. But at the same time, I felt like every project where I've worked together with other people, it has become a better work cause of it. You you do get frustrated even if you're working alone, right? Like the frustration is there always. We begin with the situation. But I, yes, it's a completely different dynamic. It's not like I had a lot of experience in that, but I feel like it's really interesting because yeah, if you are uh if your work spawns um installations and um video install or audiovisual installations and dance, which I've seen a lot of that, I guess then it sort of comes to you. Do you do you sometimes I'm just curious, like if we would uh for anyone, or even for me, for myself, if I want to work with someone, do you approach? Have you ever approached someone saying, hey, I really like what you're doing? Would you be interested in working on this idea with me? All the time. So okay. Okay, yeah, yeah, no, all the time. Okay, I stop people as well. Hey, so it's you stop them on Instagram, you know your work, and you're like, okay, you put it in your mind like well, I would really love to do a project stamina. And when the right project comes up, it just go, hello. Okay, well, now that you said that, I'm just gonna piggyback on that. Uh, you know, when when ideas come, right? How do the how do ideas come? Yeah. Question mark. Such a big question. I know, yeah. And it comes from everywhere, doesn't it? Um, I think a lot of it, I get called into projects as well. So other people's ideas, and then I get calling. Uh, some of them, like with Opera for the Dead. Um, it's it was just true conversations with Mindy, my co-vit artist, and um just thinking about what we were interested in and having a glass of wine. It often comes over a glass of wine. That's good. You mean like an accelerator? How do you say?

SPEAKER_02 9:18

But I think it comes a lot social, social occasions, talking to people.

Career Swerves - Tax, Fashion, Then Sound

SPEAKER_01 9:23

Yeah, yeah. A lot of like those water cooler conversations, but but outside the corporate environment. It's more of wine cooler conversations. Uh oh wow, this is a great haircut. Uh uh, there's just a dog passing by with um uh how do you say like a mohawk. Mohawk, yeah. Wow, such a pool dog. Um okay, let's go back to our podcast. Uh our conversation. As I said, I've done a lot of snooping around uh your work and your life, and it seemed like you've been producing an immense body of work. That's how I see it. Like you've been really active. Uh and before I go into the background, I was just wondering, do you ever feel like you get stuck or like how when an when an idea comes, do you get too much in your head or do you just go and do it and then I get stuck all the time. Uh and but uh one thing I have learned, like from from talking to other artists, is that when you and you you try and fight against it, right? When you get stuck, you try this way and that way, and and and ten different ways. But I've learned that when you you've tried ten different ways, then you're still stuck. It's best to go and do something else. Yeah, absolutely. And and I think actually that the brain still keeps working on the problem even though you're not thinking about it. And it actually helps when you start doing something else. It could be doing the laundry or something really boring. And it'll just come to you. Like something will come to you, whether it's a solution or or just another idea. I tend to organize my day. So let's say in the morning I would write music and then around 2 p.m. I would go for a run, for a walk. So anything that's more like physical or like mechanical, so it doesn't use that brain, like part of the brain. Because I do think that you, you know, you you could it could overtake, like the overthinking could overtake. You get into this, like you don't see the forest from a tree. Yeah, and I'm guilty of that all the time. Yeah, well, you know, at the same time, you do get shit done. Sorry, my my butt. Like uh, I saw your yeah, I'm now gonna get into your background. I've heard about your work on uh Next in Audio, and I'm gonna do a shout out to that Mira because it was really I'm really happy that I went, that I saw your work, that I found out about you. Um, and then I immediately stalked you. Oh, it's a really good program. I'm glad you tell you. Um yeah, so Next in Audio is a program that runs an uh art center. So for anyone in Melbourne, if you're into new things in audio, please um find them. I'll put them in the newsletter if I haven't already. But um, yeah, so I was like, okay, so you're in new instruments, but then I found out that you uh uh been like a tax accountant, uh, then that you've been uh doing uh bag designs, yes, that you've been an entrepreneur, um, you also ran a project 11. Uh you're now doing your PhD. You are a mom. You are uh like an educated pianist, you've been playing piano since age of four. Yeah. So when I read that, I was like, this is this this could easily be many people. Please tell me about your journey. Um, well, I've always loved music, but I'm the odd one out in my family. I'm the only person in the family that actually likes music. So I had to beg my parents to let me learn an instrument with those young too.

SPEAKER_00 13:01

Oh wow. Yeah, which is real, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

Yeah, I also thought that it's a matter of prestige for everyone. Even if if even they don't want you to pursue a career, they're like, oh, kids need to play classical music. Yeah, or my family. I was just uh the first and and the only one who was interested.

SPEAKER_02 13:18

But then, you know, I love and I was in all the orchestras, like school orchestra, school pies and everything else. But you know, as it is when it was coming from the background that I come from, the Asian family.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

Yeah, I never saw that as a career at university. So of course I went and did the sensible thing, and I didn't know when I worked in tax consultant. And I guess may maybe because I do have a lot of interests, so I am interested in fashion, in visuals, is in like visual arts generally. So eventually, after I had my two kids, I thought, no, the corporate life is not for me anymore. I'm gonna try and do my own thing. Uh and that's when I went into sort of fashion as as a as a business. So it was like you you created a brand. Yeah, I created a brand. And it was purely for bags? It started off as bags and I went into clothing. You had your things like your designs in retail. It's like yes, yeah, yeah. And up till very recently, actually, up till COVID, um, I I had uh you know a business partner in Indonesia. We were in the department stores there, five to ten stores? Wow. Yeah, in a department store. So it was yeah, a big part of my life for a bit uh ten years or so.

SPEAKER_02 14:26

And then once the kids got older, I don't know, I just started composing like and and this is something that I would not have been able to do when I was younger.

Start Ugly - Perfection Kills Output

SPEAKER_01 14:37

I don't know how young people are composed. I never I was I was always a per like performing and and playing, but never composing. Reading. But as I got older, I started being yeah, more attracted to composition and actually creating something on my own. And that's when I thought, okay, I did that for a couple of years on my own, and then I thought I needed feedback, I needed to learn more. And so I ended up at the VCA um doing my Bachelor of Interactive Compositions. I feel like it takes a lot of courage to uh switch careers like that. Stupidity or? Ah no, stupidity. No. Well, okay, I know, like it sounds like oh courage, courageous, I know you don't you might maybe you you don't see yourself like that, but I I I think it's bold, you know. You sort of recognize what you want to do. The older you get in life, sort of sometimes things are harder. You know, like so. Yeah, you get more establishing of career, so the stakes are a little bit higher. Yeah, so yeah, okay, I won't use the the word courage, but I can use you know bold. But also, um I do think that many people, maybe I don't know if you would agree. I I I from my point of view, I feel like a lot of people in in our industry. So when I say our industry, industry of sound artists, interdisciplinary artists, creative technologists, although I hate that word, I really don't like how it sounds. Any new media artists in a way. Uh people do have many lives. And they have many backgrounds, they have many interests, and what would you say that was like the most important thing that made you just like keep going where you go, where where you were heading? Curiosity. I kept wanting to learn. The more I learned, the more I realize I have to hear it, but there was more to learn. And it's uh it's crazy. Yeah. There are so many things on my list of things I need to learn, and and and I think I was just so curious about how I could go keep going learning. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The more I learn, the more I know I don't know. I don't know. Curiosity. Okay, I'll take that. You mentioned that you you are stuck all the time, and I really whoever have hasn't heard about your work uh from the listeners, if they go and like Google your name, there's really a bunch of art words that you've created. Yet you say that you are often stuck, uh, and now listening to like transferring from all these careers and like pathways or whatever you want to call it. If someone is stuck, because I know a few people who let's say they have a I have a friend who was like a filmmaker, but he does only commercial things for money. But there's like one film that he really wants to make, yeah. But it's just been on the back burner all the time, and it's always like, oh, I just need to finish this, or oh the sound, you know, this is not like what would you do if you were him? I would just do it. Look, I think a lot of people get trapped into trying to do something perfect, and and I think that's very dangerous. I I used to be like that, and then I've just realized that's stopping me from doing bits.

SPEAKER_02 17:54

Like, I think if you don't start, you'll never know where you end up.

SPEAKER_01 17:59

So often like the hardest thing is to just start, and then yeah, don't don't aim for perfection. Only obviously you try and do the best that you can, but uh but if you aim for that right at the beginning, it can be really constraining. Yeah. That's a really good advice. Yeah, just like go for it. Yeah, don't don't worry, you'll fix it along the way. Yeah, I guess a lot of a lot of the those blockage in in any creative uh outlet uh comes from maybe fear of being rejected or not being good enough or like constantly questioning yourself. And that's at least that's how I I feel. Like I feel like, you know, you also I don't know about you, but I get intimidated sometimes when I see other people's work and I'm like, whoa, this is huge, right? Like, how can I ever get there? Yeah, but then you then you realize that everyone feels that way. Sure. Yeah, and no one can be an explanatory. No, right.

SPEAKER_00 18:57

There's everyone has strong points in something, weak points in something else.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

Yeah, that's true. Well, I just uh this actually brings me to your uh project 11. Yes, yeah. So apart from having your own practice, art practice, uh this is uh like an initiative you started with your partner, if you um, and it's actually aimed to help experimental artists, like I guess Nietzsche artists or or people who are in play in this playful field of everything. So it's can you tell me a little bit about that? Um yeah, so Project 11, um, it's with my partner Confir, my my husband, and I I guess we've been very lucky in life in the sense that um you know we've managed to financially do quite well and be independent in in the things that we do, but we both love art. Um I love the performance arts generally, but Confer loves the visual arts. Like he's he's really into it. He actually used to study visual arts and then decided, nay, uh that that he probably didn't have the talent uh or commitment to be one, to be a visual artist. But um yeah, there are so many things uh exper especially with experimental arts, as you know, yeah, they're not commercial, so it's hard to sell. It's it's hard to make any sort of living from it. Like if you're talking to a performance artist, very rarely, uh unless you know you you're very successful, can you actually make a living out of it? But but these are such I mean for us it's so important that people still make this site, these kinds of art that that don't have a market, that don't have a buyer. And so we have to support them in some other way. And and what we're trying to do, I guess, with Project 11 is to when we find uh initiative or an artist that that we really think has potential and and needs support, we we we try and provide that support. As far as we can.

SPEAKER_02 20:59

I mean we're not guile in this, but we try and do what we can.

Australia vs Southeast Asia - Support Systems

SPEAKER_01 21:01

So it's sort of like um you could say like a management um for it's sorry, I'm just like immediately making connection with the music. It seems like sometimes when you get someone from the industry who has some money and wants to invest in someone who's a bit smaller and emerging, you seem like you're you're doing that, but for experimental art. Yeah, I mean we we all manage, we yeah, we provide the furnace, but and and we keep out of the management at the artists because I think they need freedom. But yeah, it's just providing them and some financial support and also institu Because we've got networks here in terms of you know uh institutions, also helping them have the connections with the institutions. This immediately uh sparked two questions. Well, the first question is like Do you think there's a difference between how things are here in Australia and the rest of the world? How is it in Malaysia? Or I don't know, can you compare? Uh yeah, I mean. Hugely different. I don't know about the rest of the world, but certainly in Southeast Asia where we're from, there's this, there is almost extremely very little government support, for example, for experimental arts. So artists are pretty much on their own. They either raise funds themselves, they manage to have some sort of patron or buyer, and that's it. So I think in a sense, we're really lucky in Australia that we do have creative Australia, creative victory sources of funding. At the same time, it can be a double-edged sword because I feel like maybe the urgency. You know, in Asia, if if if you're not a good artist, you just want on sabbat. You would have long ago gone and do something else. And do you think that then also affects the scene, like and the quality of work? Maybe. Yes. I mean the experimental scene in Malaysia some reason is very small. The quality of the work. It's hard to say. I I'd say the individual arts and the quality of artists coming out of Asia's is extraordinary and they are in the major institutions worldwide. I know it's a hard question. Difficult one, because it's so individualistic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm I'm just like maybe looking from a lens where where I come from from Croatia. Yeah. It's very competitive. Yeah. Meaning that if you suck, no one will ever take a glance at you or your work. So you really have to be best of the best to get anything. Yeah. And sort of that drive really then drives some incredible work. You know, it's questionable if it's exclusive because it's like that, it's just the way it is, because it's a small country and no one gives uh no one cares about experimental art. But um yeah, I'm just curious um now that you're on the other side, because through Project 11, you probably got gained a lot of insight on how things work in the bureaucratic view, or I don't know, statistical view. Yeah, I mean I guess one of the reasons why we we started Project 11 was from a funding perspective in Asia.

SPEAKER_02 24:22

The kind of artists that we would that we think uh deserve support because they're taking risks, they they are not getting any support.

AI, Tech Optimism/Pessimism + Quickfire Wrap

SPEAKER_01 24:30

Yeah, no, it's it's it's a fantastic initiative. I really I really think that that's and yeah, I always feel like the best initiatives come from artists themselves. You were acting as an artist, but you're also now on the other side trying to help other other artists and you sort of know what they need. Yes, what the challenges are. Yeah, like the empathy, like you can just like empathize much better than some random people. I don't know. Yeah, so what I also was really interested, like, well, you're now doing a PhD at the University of Melbourne. Yes. Can I ask how is that going?

SPEAKER_02 25:07

Oh good, good. I think I've I've almost passed. Well, I go up with some minor revisions. So as soon as I do those minor revisions, I'm done. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:15

Wow, nice. Okay. Well, I saw that um a lot of your work, such as Simulacra, yes, uses uh AI, but it's from what I what from what I could tell is a sort of a commentary of on generative AI. Yes. And I think I really wanted to ask you, have this uh conversation about, you know, what do you think about AI's role in creative agency? Because um we live now in this era defined by generative AI and like Chat GPT and now these deep seek and everything. And there's a huge um question of authorship and agency. Yeah, like I I think what is interesting is that a lot of people, even some artists, are not aware that by using any sort of generative AI, you're using someone else's work. So, where do you think this is heading specifically within the music field, let's say? Let's start with that. Yeah, so Jang AI, I think uh look, it's gonna be prevalent for anyone who's working in a more commercial environment where you are producing music that, as course, meets certain expectations, commercial expectations. So you're doing advertising music or even certain soundtracks to cinema, for example, that's gonna be very easily replaced by Gen AI. Um, I think in a more niche field, what I'm working in, for example, there is no danger of being replaced by Gen AI because just purely from the fact that I think that this deluge of synthetic music is gonna make the human and the creative even more valuable. So actually, uh, anyone who's interested in creativity and and and creating works that are truly an expression of their thoughts and their feelings, that's gonna become even more and more appreciated and wanted by audiences. Opera for the Dead is a work that doesn't use any AI whatsoever.

SPEAKER_02 27:26

So no matter what how the field goes with Gen AI, I feel like there's always still so much to do without AI.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

There will always be so much to do without AI. Like there's nothing beats watching uh someone sing right in front of you. Um having said that, I think AI in general, I'm really interested in small data AI as a tool for creative expression. So not Could you give us an example? I saw training my own models with my own data, uh say to be a co-composer or co-improviser with myself.

SPEAKER_02 28:00

That's something I've been sort of working on. And you don't have the ethical issues of Gen AI stealing, you know, you're not stealing anyone's data, you're using their data, but you're just using AI as as another creative tool. And and that for me is a lot more interesting because you can you can shape the outcome.

SPEAKER_01 28:18

With Gen AI, you're just prompting, and then you get this outcome that's a secret sound, and what do you do? You you can't delve into it, change a little bit of this, change a little bit the. It's very hard to do that. True. That's actually a positive outlook. I do think that um I do agree when it comes to commercial, I guess, mainstream um fields of music, such as even voiceovers.

SPEAKER_02 28:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 28:45

Now, just yesterday someone was mentioning to me how there's been like new commercials, like ads um on the TV for those like uh snacks for kids, like I don't know, like crackers, I don't know. And and yeah, it's just a matter of time when when a lot of those things will be replaced and and it's questionable how much will we be aware? Yes, yeah. But yeah, for niche um musicians and artists, yeah. I guess it's like an experimentation, but but then do you think there's any well, you know, you're you're also in the field of making your instruments, and you pretty much work with bespoke technology a lot of your time. Yes, yes, and do you find yourself to be like a techno-pessimist or techno optimist? I know it's like I actually met some people who are working with technology and they're techno pessimists. So I'm just I that's why I was like, okay, I I literally have to ask this question because I don't know, maybe you want to investigate it further and see how it's gonna crush the world or not. Yes. Uh well, yeah, I don't know. I think it may very well crush the world, but we'll be making great music.

SPEAKER_02 29:53

What's crushing? That's all I can say.

SPEAKER_01 29:58

Yeah, well, like uh I also thought uh I think um you made a really good point. Uh so I've just uh been finishing uh this book, How Music Works, uh, from David Byrne. And one um part of the book uh he talks about uh how music technology in some ways appears to have been on a trajectory in which the end result is that it will actually destroy and devalue us itself. Like in the sense that you know, we're gonna get it's gonna get so oversaturated with even now the Spotify, anti-Spotify movement, it's growing, anti-Facebook movement is growing. So I feel like what you just said about like how human touch will be more and more needed. Yeah. And I think it's really interesting now that you mentioned if we go back to the very start of our conversation about the opera and how people are sending digital flowers, and I find it really um interesting that I couldn't bel I can't believe that that's actually happening. It's really interesting. Yeah, I guess efficiency. Oh well. As as we said at the beginning, like you're literally in the middle of the development of the Opera of the Dead. I don't want to waste any of your time. I have five uh questions at the very end that I ask every uh every of my guests. Yes, okay. Um keep it short or long as much as you want. Okay. Uh favorite DOW or Max MSP plugin? Okay.

SPEAKER_02 31:34

So I love the inner GRM tools. They're like electroacoustic tools for like sound wrangling.

SPEAKER_01 31:41

Yeah, they're old, but yeah, yeah, still amazing. Okay. Okay, well, I'll I'll you you'll provide me the link and then I'll share the link with everyone else. Favorite film score? Favorite film scores I had, but uh or like it could be a TV show.

SPEAKER_02 31:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:57

Look, I think Baby Driver was just amazing. Yeah, the way it just integrated like the follies so well with this the film. I think that's it was amazing. And but I mean you know, I sound wise like Morricone's spaghetti westerns, I love those. Favorite Melden Bass musician, band, sound artist, pick, whatever. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:20

But I I like um Hayata's Coyote, I think, uh has managed to still be really quirky and and just keep experimenting despite commercial success.

SPEAKER_01 32:31

Other than that, now I've got a one of my mentors at the VCA, Kate Neo, is an absolutely amazing composer, and I and I truly admire like her approach to composition. Okay, we'll share her work. Most inspiring piece of writing you've read so far. So a book for whatever poem. Oh gosh. You you'll you'll let me know. Let me know. That's just too many. I know, I know. Okay, no.

SPEAKER_00 33:01

Sorry.

SPEAKER_01 33:02

That's okay, that's okay. Well, look, I literally uh pulled you out of your uh development mode. Uh I'm really happy. Uh like I understand what it means to be deep into developing something, so thanks. And the last question is the best underrated music you think everyone should hear? Oh, I'm sorry, I'm killing you with these questions. I'm sorry, okay. Um experimental music. I think everyone should hear it, but oh my gosh. It's like, um, yeah, it's funny because like my my whole family, they're into the you know, uh Taylor Swift and also. Whenever they hear my type of music, they're just they're just not interested. So um I suppose, yeah. I would I would really love for people to be open to different. Well, for example, if you if someone from your family is like, hey, Monica, I really want to understand your music, give me the first thing that I should listen. Maybe not from you, but like what what should be the first thing they should listen as an introduction to experimental music or exp I guess I it's sound art. I think you go back to the you know the early days of music concrete and some of those ollies, early recordings, uh Kershaffer. I I thought I think as you then start to then think of music not just as as pretty melodies and notes, but this phenomenon of of sounds that could be anything, that's that's when you start to open up uh the possibilities of what you enjoy listening to. Yeah. I feel like that's why, sorry, I I'm just gonna, but I think that's why generative AI, uh, and I can only go into Spotify uh from there is a dangerous thing because it creates an echo chamber where you think that you have control over choosing what you want to explore and you think that you're discovering new things. Yeah, but I think that's under a huge question mark. That's right, it's just regurgitating, right? Different versions of okay. Yeah, yeah. So you think that you're just like learning new artists, new sounds, but it are you? Okay. I'm gonna send you an email for that one question. I'm not gonna forget about it. I want to share with everyone that thank you once again for taking the time, uh, sharing your wisdom. And we wish you like a look, this is gonna be after the the pro the premiere's, and I'm and I can just say it's been amazing. Like I'm manifesting. I have rage of the technology gods, like it's always like, yeah, we're gonna pray, we're gonna pray for it's gonna be fine. Like, you know how it is, like the the right the day before the performance is always nothing works, but then the next day everything gets. It's fine. You're listening to Serial Music Talks Podcast. I'm your host, Giva, aka Lucia, and you're here to listen to some really honest conversations I have with Melbourne musicians, music producers, sound designers about breaking into new markets, uh music hustle, imposter syndrome, writer's block, posting on social media, a lot of struggles.