Cereal Music Talks x ŽIVA
Real conversations about sound, creativity, and the journeys that shape them.
Join me (ŽIVA aka Lucija Ivsic), a Croatian-Australian musician and new media artist, as I explore the complexities of music careers with emerging fellow musicians and sound artists. Through honest discussions, I dig deeper into the challenges of navigating new scenes, forging unique paths, and finding success in niche genres.
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Cereal Music Talks x ŽIVA
A Career in Film Composition with Chiara Kickdrum
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In this episode, I chat with Chiara Costanza aka Chiara Kickdrum, Italian-Australian film composer and electronic music producer. Her recent screen credits include the global Netflix hit Heartbreak High, the feature film Panopticon (KVIFF) and Inside, starring Guy Pearce and Cosmo Jarvis, which screened at Tribeca in 2025. She also composed the score for Mixtape (BBC/Foxtel), which premiered at SXSW this year, alongside previous work on Totally Completely Fine (STAN), Australia’s Open (MIFF/ABC), and the Palme d’Or–winning short All These Creatures (Cannes, 2018). We talk about her journey towards working full-time in film composition, the importance of networking and taking risks.
To stay updated and get access to exclusive content, subscribe to my monthly newsletter. You can also connect with me on Instagram for more updates.
Intro
SPEAKER_00I think it's like more, you know, I'm curious about your work. And instead of just keeping that information for myself, I'm like, why, you know, I can just share it? Hey, this is Lutya K. Creator and host of Serial Music Talks podcasts. Each month I sit down with musicians, music producers, and sound designers based in Melbourne to talk about the real challenges we face in the industry, whether it's breaking into markets, battling imposter syndrome, overcoming writers' blocks, or just navigating the cruel world of social media. I approach these conversations as an artist myself, and like most of us, I'm also just trying to figure it all out on the go. A new episode drops every last Tuesday of the month. So if you want to stay connected, you can subscribe to my newsletter via substack. Just find the link somewhere below, above.
SPEAKER_01Yes, um, Chloe. Yeah, she's lovely. I think this is kind of her eating time, but she's on a diet. I don't know. The veterinary said she needs to lose a little bit of weight. She's got just a few extra things that she needs to show. Okay. Um, and because I I was away and um someone is taking care of her, and I think they fed her a bit too much.
Guest: Chiara Costanza - actor, music composer, producer, DJ
Tribeca & New York
SPEAKER_00So this July episode is a very special one because it's the first one I've actually recorded via Zoom. And why? Well, I don't know if you know this, but Ingel in June, uh so a month ago, I had a com performance in Melbourne, and during stage diving, I entirely broke every single thing in my knee. Um so now I'm housebound, but I was like, that won't, you know, that won't stop me, right? Um so I met up over Zoom with Chiara Costanza. Chiara Costanza is an Italian uh film and TV composer and electronic producer, originally from Turin, now based in Melbourne. Um she's been classically trained in piano and later immersed, of course, in Melbourne's electronic music scene as a DJ, Chiara Kick Drum, maybe you've heard about it. Um but most importantly, uh she's made a career in film composition, and her recent screen credits include the global Netflix hit Heartbreak High, feature film Panopticon, uh Inside, which stars uh Guy Pierce and Cosmo Jarvis, which screened at Tribeca Festival in 2025, something that we actually cover in this episode. We've talked about many things, uh the importance of networking, taking risks, maintaining discipline. We also covered a little bit about in case you're interested in film composition, you want to uh tip your toes into it, uh, or really go full on. She got some advice for you. I saw that you you've been to New York City for the Tribeca Festival uh for the screening of the movie Inside for which you compose the music.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. How was that? It was amazing. I mean, New York is amazing regardless, right? Um it's I just love being there because you can just be yourself, you can wear whatever you want. I mean, you can do it in Melbourne as well or everyone else, but in New York, there's just this vibe, or you know, everything is grand and crazy and fun and extroverted, and you know, I don't know. I was it was I just love New York, but um, and obviously, you know, the added bonus of being there for the for the festival was just an incredible experience because I'd never been to Tribeca. Um, you know, we did a screening of the film with Cosmo Jarvis, who's one of the actors in the film, um, you know, got to meet him as well and had a bit of a chat and you know, hang out with all uh the other people, some some of the not all of them, but some of the people that you know worked on the film and Charles Williams as well. He's a director, so um, you know, we were able to to spend some time and and then I just had a lot of meetings, and you know, before going there, I emailed and messaged people. You were hustling a little bit, yeah. Tell me a little bit more about that. Yeah, well, I was like, I mean, I'm going all the way there, and um it's I've been to a few festivals now, and I I think I'm starting to get a bit of an idea how they work, and you know, um, I feel like every time I go, then if I don't contact anyone, it's almost like I'm wasting some opportunities to meet people that otherwise I wouldn't meet. And so, you know, I think the best way to meet people is still the more organic way, right? So you're in a at an event or you're out, or people see your film and they come to you and talk to you, or you know, so that's always the best. The second thing that you can do though, it's also say, look, you know, I'm a composer of you know, of a film that's screening at Trebeka, I'm gonna be there for the whole festival. If you have any time, just let me know and you know, we'll catch up.
SPEAKER_00And um was it successful? Would you say that it was the the you know the the hustle and like the pitch pitching? Like you know, it sounds like some of them were maybe even called emails. Oh, totally, yeah, yeah. They were totally called emails.
Busy Cycles & Industry Shifts
SPEAKER_01Okay, okay. Yeah, yeah. Emails, lots of Instagram because a lot of people don't have emails online these days. Um, but Instagram has kind of become the new way that people kind of contact people, you know, and and check with you. Especially I didn't email like um, you know, producers or anything like that. It was mainly just the directors of the film and of the films. And um, you know, I got a quite a few um replies back, and then you know, I got a few meetings out of it. Um, nothing has you know come out of it yet, because it really just happened, but it was more really just almost like planting the seed and letting people know that I exist and um you know I'm I'm active in composition and you know now they've got my work. Um, you know I'm there, part of it. Yeah, you put yourself on the map, you know, how they say. Yeah, because I mean, you know, as you probably know, any artistic job is very competitive. And um, you know, there's so many of us that are doing this, uh, there's so many better people than me, and there's people that have got more experience, and there's, you know, there's so many different factors that um, you know, even being able to do what I do to me is an absolute miracle almost, you know, because I keep thinking to myself, even though like deep down I know, but there's always this thing of like, well, why are people coming to me when there's all these other people around? But at the same time, I'm trying to make the most out of this moment because there's so much happening work-wise, and my career is really, you know, progressing and going, everything's going really fast. And if I don't do this work now, um, you know, what am I gonna do it when I'm not busy and I've got nothing to show? And I'm one of those like, you know, composers who's, you know, needs work and is desperate. So it's this is not where I'm at at the moment. I'm actually really busy. Um, but I'm thinking ahead and just trying to, you know, thinking long term because I would love to do this for the rest of my life, you know.
SPEAKER_00But do you think that you ever have you ever been not busy? Because, like, when you say, you know, working ahead, I feel like it can be a very you know motivating thing and like securing your existential things, stability, etc. But it can also be a trap, if you know what I mean. Like, you know, you never stop. Do you ever stop?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, uh, no. Okay, okay. Yeah, but um, but I mean, I guess since I because you know, my journey is very long and convoluted, and I've done a million of other jobs, like you know, the where I'm at now, I wasn't here five years ago, you know. So it's taken me a very, very, very long time to get to this point. So, yes, I have been not busy and I have hustle dips, and I have done a million other jobs to make money while I was still, you know, dreaming of you know working full-time as a musician. And so definitely I've been there, but I guess since you know four or five years or something, um, since things have really picked up, I haven't stopped. So it's basically like jobs back to back, you know, and sometimes riding the wave. Yeah, really, yeah. And you know, I speak to a lot of my friends that are composers as well, and I hear, you know, stories, and there's a lot of people that are not busy at the moment, and you know, the industry is changing, you know, LA is you know not the LA that it was probably before COVID, things changed a lot um after that, and then the writer strike, and you know, everything's so expensive there, and people are not producing movies there. Whereas I feel like LA used to be kind of like the place where, well, if it can't happen here, I'll go to LA and you know, it'll work because there's so much happening there. That's not even there as a safe place to rely on anymore. Um, and so so yeah, so hearing stories of these, you know, composers that have been doing this for a long time and they haven't had much work and stuff like that. So at the back of my mind, I'm always, even though I'm quite naive and childish, and otherwise I wouldn't be doing this. Like if I if I was thinking rationally and maturely about you know life and things, I wouldn't be doing this job. I don't I don't think anyway.
SPEAKER_00So you mean that it there is the drive, you know, part of you it is driven by this instability, I guess, and precary precarity. That do you think that that comes attributes to the music, like to the industry?
Obsession vs “Ideas”
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's just I mean, every time say I go to a doctor, and the doctor is like, you know, or even at the airport when I got back, the customs officer was like, Oh, okay, yeah, what's your name? Do you have anything to declare? Oh, what do you do as a job? And I was like, I'm a composer, you know. They just look at you going, like, is that even a job? Like, what do you mean? Like they're always surprised, and especially, I hate to say this, but especially because I'm a woman, and that's even more difficult to find, you know. So it's yeah, it's very few of us really that do this full-time and professionally in Australia anyway. Um, and so, you know, and and usually, you know, it's really not seen even as a job almost. Like it almost sounds like, you know, you make music, it's fun. Yes, of course, it's fun, and I do what I love and it's amazing, but it's still a job, and you know, it comes with this its pros and cons still. Um, but I guess, you know, I I think you know, for someone to believe that this can be reality, you need to really have a lot of um almost like, yeah, be able probably to deal with instability and precariousness and being a dreamer, being delusional, you know, but also like have this strength and obsession and belief in something that doesn't matter what happens where you're at in life. And I can tell you because I've been through it in, you know, I've made so many, you know, drastic choices at crazy times in my life, like when my personal life was a bit of a mess, and you know, but I did it anyway. And at the time, like you don't think about it, like you just you, you know, you're just driven by this force inside you, and you just know where it comes from, what it is, what it means, even like I didn't even know what it meant to be a composer. Like, I've learned the job as you know, I started doing it, but I had no idea of the processes of what post-production is or what a producer does, and you know, like it's been like a crazy journey, and I've done basically mostly everything on my own, with support, obviously, from some people that we can talk about, but um, you know, that you know, it wouldn't I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for them as well. But in terms of like, you know, getting to where I am, it's all been just, you know, I don't know, my madness.
SPEAKER_00I don't I don't I don't know. Do you think, you know, sometimes when I think about it, um, like when I sit down to write music, I feel like it's not something that I do by choice, but not in a bad way, right? Like in a in a sense that it's a it's a physical urge that I just need to satisfy. I just need to sit down and like this is the only time that I'll actually feel like my hunger has been satisfied. Um, from what I'm hearing from what you say, you know, this madness, do you think is that that? Like that you're driven just like the ideas that you have that you wanna achieve and make happen?
SPEAKER_01Uh I guess, yeah. But I I wouldn't say that I have all these ideas in my head and I have this urge. Like I actually don't really have that. You know, some people think about ideas and they have to put it down. Maybe you're one of those people, like I wish I was one of those. Like it's definitely not my process at all. To me, it's just always been like I've always done music since I was very little. It's always been part of my life. And since I then I, you know, I was a teenager, I was just writing songs. That's you know, but there was no one told me, no one, you know, I was just writing songs.
SPEAKER_00And how how did you tell me more about like how what do you mean by just writing songs?
Moving to Melbourne
SPEAKER_01I was just started writing songs, you know, songs that was back in Italy, right? Yeah, back in Italy, yeah. But I was like, you know, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, because I was doing like I had bands as well, and I was studying jazz, and you know, so I was, you know, and I was writing lyrics, and it was piano and lyrics mainly. And then I got a couple of people to arrange a few tracks, so they never went anywhere. Um, you know, it was more a thing of like friends who come home, and my parents were like, Come on, Chiara, play the piano for everyone, kind of thing, you know. So those were those were my shows at the time. But you know, and I hated it. I remember thinking, oh God, not again. But my parents were so proud of me and they wanted to, you know, show me off, of course. Um, and that was and that was actually, I'm grateful now that they did that because they kind of you know initiated something that otherwise I wouldn't have done. Um, but I guess uh for me, you know, even when I was doing all these other jobs and I've done plenty of different things, I would just always come back to this obsession with music. Like I, you know, and it's just just not just making it, it's listening to it, it's you know, uh seeing shows, it's collecting records, then it became DJing as well. And like it's it's just the whole, and then making music also, it's part of it because then I'm like, well, I want to make it. Like it's just like I said, like it's an inner force, it's something that you can't, it's like your urge, right? Like you can't really control it. Yeah, you don't I don't know why. And um, but I guess I think now looking back, if it wasn't because it was this, you know, there was this strong of an obsession or urge or call it as you know as you want, um, it's very hard to make it happen because you know, people settle, people, you know, like they just want a normal job and they might have played piano when they were young, but then you know, they become doctors or lawyers or whatever, I don't know. Um, because that's the reality that we are supposed to live in, apparently. But you know, there's other realities as well.
SPEAKER_00So you sort of always knew that you you just want to make music.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't know how. Like when I came to Australia 20 years ago, uh, it was actually my brother, because my brother moved here before me, and um he kind of initiated, you know, my move here, but I started with the work in Oli Day Business. He lives here, uh older brother. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He lives here as well. Um, but the reason why I came is because he was like, because I was doing the College of Arts in Italy in Torino. And basically he was like, Look, you've got all these songs and you're doing jazz and you know, come to Melbourne and try, you know, try to do some music here. I think you really love it. And um, and I was like, okay, cool, yeah, I'll come. But then of course I came and you know, I did everything but music.
SPEAKER_00So you came on a working holiday visa, working on that, yeah. Yeah, and you you were just like, okay, uh doing a farm work.
SPEAKER_01Oh no. Picking strawberries. I don't know if you look, I I was very lucky. I didn't have to do that. Yeah. Um no, I did I actually started working, uh you know, washing dishes um at a place around the corner here in South Melbourne, actually. And and then there I met a guy which then became my boyfriend at the time. And he was um, you know, probably still today, I've seen so many people play as I think he's never DJed professionally, but he's still the best DJ that I've ever met in my life. Like he's just incredible. But also, he has the best collection of records because he's 10 years older than me. And you know, um, and he kind of introduced me to all this like techno, electro, you know, Detroit, you know, Chicago house, acid, and we would go out, club.
SPEAKER_00So sorry to interrupt you. So by that time, I'm just curious about the you know, also music taste, how it you know changed if it did prior to coming to Melbourne, you were listening to what kind of music?
SPEAKER_01Just before coming to Melbourne, I was very much into jazz. That was it was my jazz time, but before that, like I grew up with because my brother is 10 years older than me as well, and he used to listen to you know deep purple, Guns N' Roses, and you know, Led Zeppelin, all the things, all the stuff. So my first concert was actually Deep Purple when I was 11. Uh, and then you know, I kept building this kind of passion for uh hard hard rock and metal, and then I got into death metal and trash, and then I had bands, and I was like a full goth.
SPEAKER_00Wait a second, wait a second. So you had a uh I have to, you know, I'm very so you had a metal band because we were into jazz, but you had a metal band, like a dance.
SPEAKER_01I wasn't into jazz yet then, but yeah. And then um, you know, with my friends, we would just, you know, go to and buy, you know, bootlegs of you know, bands, like Black Sabbath, and like you know, went through all that phase, and then um, you know, of course, and then somehow that turned into like more progressive rock, like Dream Theater and those kinds of things, and then from there, you know, moved into like fusion and and then you move into jazz. So there was kind of like so was that like weather report, for example, is weather report, okay, okay. Of course, yeah, yeah, yeah, all that stuff. Um, you know, dream theater, for example, we've got this fusion more fusion-y kind of band called Liquid Tension, which is still like rock and fusion stuff, but also like more Chicorea and you know, the whole, the whole lot, okay. Yeah. Um, and then, but then when I moved here meeting Mari, this guy that I was telling you about, and you know, we would spend all you know the weekends going out to clubs, bars, whatever, and then we would come back and he would always DJ for everyone. So we had we would have these house parties and he would DJ. And you know, he started playing all this, you know, 90s techno and and you know, acid and acid techno, Hasid House, Chicago House, like everything and underground resistance, like just all this stuff, Carl Craig, you know, um, Kevin Saunderson, like I don't know. And I was just like, what is this stuff? Like I never heard of, you know, I'm not a rave, I wasn't a rave or I didn't, you know, we didn't really do that. Um, and so so that's when my taste, you know, changed. Yeah.
Day Jobs, Strategy, Discipline
SPEAKER_00And do you think so so you came here, you were like doing working holiday visa? I guess that was an idea. And do you have you started slowly? Like, was the DJing the first thing that you then no?
SPEAKER_01Then um, after doing waitressing and stuff, actually through waitressing, I met um a manager of a uh company because when I was in Italy, I studied economics as well. So I had that up my sleeves, and we kind of became friends. And and this guy, um what's his name? Brian. He sorry, it was a long time ago. Um, he, you know, he's again one of those people that changed my life because I was I I was basically just about to go back. And I said, look, I'm basically, you know, my visa will run out in a few months, and I don't know what's gonna happen. Um, and he was like, Well, you know, we're setting up this new company, engineering company, oil and gas, and maybe you know, we can set up an interview with uh with everyone and see, you know, we might be able to sponsor you. And I was like, okay, yeah, sure. And uh, so I didn't have to go and pick pick up fruit so go back to Italy.
SPEAKER_00But you did economics, yeah, I did. Yeah, okay. Do you think that uh that knowledge helps you with the hustle and like uh sustaining your uh music composition business?
SPEAKER_01Uh maybe, maybe. I mean, there's there's definitely there's definitely a part of me that's that's a lot more rational and um mathematical and poisoned and structured. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you see you seem like you know, looking at your resume, like and then everything that you've been doing, like biography, you seem, you know, my impression was that you're disciplined, that there is um that you do have a strategy. Am I right?
SPEAKER_01Uh oh. I wish I just make it up as I go. I just make it up as I go. Yeah, but um, I appreciate it. I mean, you know, it's funny because you know, so many people they're like, you know, I can't believe how much stuff you've been doing, you know, like you're doing so much, I can't believe it, or people that I don't see in a long time. And but you know, when you do something, it's not like I go and think, oh, look how much I've done. Oh my god, I'm amazing. Oh yeah, yeah, this is you know, now so I'd basically just going along and taking these opportunities, and but definitely discipline is something that you need because otherwise, you know, of course, I would rather be out drinking and partying all the time. Like there's no, I mean, I just would you really rather no, not rather, not rather, but of course I love it, you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think the best, you know, for me at least, like yeah, nothing is better than you know, having drinks after the performance, you know what I mean? After the that, you know, you've gone through that hustle and whatever, you've done so much work, and then you wanna, you know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's right. And even that's why like even go to Tribeca, you know, we were drinking every night, of course, because there's events and stuff, but I don't feel guilty. And now, you know, there's always this kind of like sense of guilt of I should be doing more, I'm not doing enough. I'm very hard on myself as well, and and I think you know, that's good and bad because that pushes me to do a lot, but but don't get me wrong, like I procrastinate a lot as well, and I, you know, but uh somehow I get things done and you know, but I put a lot of effort in it.
SPEAKER_00Being hard on yourself, does that have anything to do with the fact that you immigrated to Australia?
SPEAKER_01Uh I've never thought about it that way. I think it might come more from my Catholic upbringing, like the you know, the religiousness of you know, um, our upbringing, and you know, I think there's so much sense of guilt about everything, and you have to be good and you have to be, you know, you have to be a good girl, and you have to work hard and you have to do the right thing, and I think somehow, even though I don't believe, you know, I'm not a Catholic anymore, but I don't uh seem to be able to brush that off. So I think that comes more from that. Um, I wouldn't say I guess I guess I've been through a lot of situations where people haven't taken me seriously because of my accent. Um you know, that that happens. That that has happened a lot, and and maybe subconsciously I feel like I'm I've wanted to prove more, and so I worked harder. That's a possibility, but I never thought about it that way.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, wow. I actually never thought about the uh that's really interesting that you mentioned the religion because yeah, I come from a very small city in East Croatia. Right. Uh and I've was, you know, I I was also uh raised uh as a Catholic in a Catholic community, yeah, and I feel the same. I but I've never I always attribute it to the culture, like the background. I actually never thought that religion is a huge part of that culture, yeah. Um yeah, so yeah, that's a really interesting point. You you'll you I'll uh I think I'll continue to think of digging. Yeah, I guess there's nothing to dig in, but like, yeah, that blame, that's that blame and shame, or I don't know, something you know, you have to sort of justify um everything that you do. And it was also interesting how you mentioned, you know, how you know people think that music is there's like it's embedded in our culture, and it's not just in creation or Italian culture, it's actually in Australian culture. Oh, music is fun, you know. It's like a you know, we do it after work, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01They don't take it seriously, yeah. And I think make money from music. I'm like, yeah, I mean, you know, I didn't for a long time, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um but you know, I stick to it, so stuck to it.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, yeah, I feel like it might be, you know, feeding just further the you know, that need to like, okay, I have to prove. I don't know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I think people are you know generally conditioned to just even religion, not religion, because Australia is not a very religious country, but still there's kind of like this path that people seem to follow regardless, you know. There's like this kind of idea of the right thing of what's normal, what's right. Um, I don't know, to me it's just boring. I've never lived my life that way, you know. And um, and sometimes, don't get me wrong, like there is part of me that thinks, oh, you know, my life in a way could have been so much easier if I worked for a company and if I stayed at the, you know, I could have had a really big career at this place that I was saying, this engineering company, and then you know, I just decided to to leave it at one point after some years that I was there because I felt I wasn't depressed, but I I was just very unhappy, you know. And um, you know, and money is not why we live, like we just live to do jobs, just you know, to survive and pay the mortgage and travel, you know, once a year and and make money. I mean, what to me, what's the point of existence? Like it's but it's just me. It might be, you know, intense, I don't know. But to me, like I'm I feel like I'm here for this purpose. Like I need I'm I'm here to make music, you know, and I'm so um grateful, I guess, that I have this because I also understand that a lot of people don't have these passions and and interests, you know.
SPEAKER_00And it's not their fault, it's just the easiest way for me to sort of I guess uh describe where people when people don't have any interest, you know, when you have to buy a gift for someone who doesn't have any interests or like passions, it's like the hardest gift you can get. Like yes, gift cards, like and I feel like at that stage I realized that this is like that's that's just so unsettling to realize that someone actually lives without you know, you were talking about records and like or you know, just like having favorite musicians or movies or books or just something that really, really, you know, sparks your imagination, makes you excited or angry, something. How do you live without that? Is that even possible?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, yeah, for us it's not, but for a lot of people, and that's why the music industry is you know, it's what it is because people don't care what they listen to. People like they don't they don't think about these things, like they don't value quality of music of you know what's good or what's bad, at least like pop music until the 80s, even the 90s, those even the early 2000s, like there's some bangers there that we used to listen to in the radio, like but things sounded different, like everyone had a voice, and then something happened where now you know they're all feeling you know, um, obliged like to conform to this kind of idea of music that it just sucks. Like, what is it? Everything literally sound. I don't want to be you know negative, but a lot of the pop music that you listen to, it's good today. Tomorrow we're gonna forget about it. Like it's it's a you know, it's a good track for six months and then it's gone. Like, and we still keep going back to you know the old tracks to feel excited and you know, we feel connected to those moments, to those times, to those places. You know, we've got these memories. Now it's everything's a blur, nothing means anything anymore. And I think, you know, um people are really, you know, basically eating whatever they've been fed, and that's why the um, you know, the recording recording companies they know that they can do that. Like it's it's almost like um some kind of control or something.
SPEAKER_00But do you think that that's is that because of the you know, streaming services, like and and how the music industry changed, like what you're mentioning? Totally. And or is it because also sorry, um, you know, the the creators, the the composers, right? The musicians are also changing the way that they compose.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, definitely streaming, you know, mp3s and and you know, webs or whatever, like they've changed the industry completely because people relied on selling records and then people started like downloading music for free, you know, Napster and all that, and like you know, we've all done it. Yeah, um, which is completely wrong, but we still did it, you know, because it's like, oh, I can add music for free. But at the time, like you don't even think how that can affect, you know, the artists, right? Yeah, and um, you know, um, but and then of course, like social media, you know, all this, you know, TikTok, like if I'm gonna use TikTok, but even when I'm on the reels or something, you keep hearing the same tracks, you know, the the radios are pumping up the same tracks, and you know, um, I think in general we're living in the world in a world where the you know there's less people with more power controlling the world, and it's kind of affecting arts and culture as well as every everything else that we're seeing where the world is at at the moment. It's a complete mess.
SPEAKER_00And is it similar to you know, like I I really don't know much about the uh film composition world, like that part of the music industry. Is it has that changed as well? Has that been affected with uh um streaming services? I guess you know you do have Netflix, so I think that's an advantage now.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think I think there's pros and cons. The the more um pressing matter now it's AI, just because um, you know, the uh companies have been feeding AI with our music already. And so the the worry, and and this is like a worry across the board with every job, is that they're gonna start um creating soundtracks with AI. I think you know, it might be possible in some years, in you know, it's not gonna happen. Like it's one of those things where it's like it's gonna happen to tomorrow, and you know, it's gonna take time. And also film composition is very, you know, catered to a particular narrative, and you know, um, it's not just like a you know, like a post-malone track that you can just make because it just it's like an equation, right? Like you can't go wrong. That's what it sounds like, and it's easy to or Drake, you know, that's what it sounds like. AI knows it and it makes it, you know, now there's like that um that band, that uh rock or band or whatever on Spotify that was created with AI, and they they had like you know half a million um followers or listeners, like in very short amount of time, great, like people didn't even realize. So that that's scary, and that's definitely um a threat of some sort. But I think um, in terms of the the um the industry, I don't think I've been in it for long enough to know because you know I've really only been doing this full-time for, like I said, four or five years. And you know, since I've been around, it hasn't changed. But I know, for example, in the US the contracts have changed quite a bit and they seem to always ask for work for higher kind of type of contracts, which means that then you don't keep your writers uh and publishers, you know, if you're publishing yourself uh royalties, or maybe just the variety of royalties where you keep the publishing royalties, but that means that you only get 50% of your royalty. Sometimes you gotta give it all away, 100% of it. So um it's um, you know, it's that that is tricky. Also, you know, streaming services. I think TV uh in terms of royalties paid a lot, um, also because there was you know less content, more people watching that content, and it worked, you know, in a different way. Now there is so much out there, like I've worked on shows that say it might be on Stan or SBS. You know, how many people will watch an Australian show that's you know on ABC or SBS? I mean, a lot of people do, but compared to say Hardbreak Eye, this Netflix series that I worked on, that's Netflix series, you know, it's everyone's watched it all around the world. Yeah, they push it, yeah, yeah. Yeah, then that's when I'm like, okay, now I can see some money, you know. Now I understand what it's like to, you know, to you know, people that leave off the royalties, I'm like, okay, so this is what it's like, but you know, you need Netflix series because otherwise, or like a very big film, you know, it's all about international, I think, from what I've seen so far. Australia is small, you know, there's not many people here. So if you have just an Australian show or a film that just shows in Australia, then the royalties are not gonna be much. But when you start branching out, and that's why I've contacted those people in New York and when I was overseas in Europe. Hustle, hustle, hustle. Yeah, because I see the opportunity like to work on international stuff. Um you know, you can yeah, it's basically at that point, like intellectual property is the best thing that ever anyone ever invented.
SPEAKER_00So if you could, I know that some of the listeners are also into, you know, like musicians or sound designers who would love to get into this um industry. How those um contracts usually work, like what are the usual, I guess, um arrangements? Like, what do you negotiate? Yeah, can you just give me a little bit of the production side of things when it comes to money negotiation? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, um, I mean, it's a big question because I know every project, every no, I know it's a good question, but it's also a big question because every project is different, and also, you know, will depend, you know, it will depend on the budget of the film and where you're at in your career, and you know, there's a whole lot of different factors involved. Um, I'm lucky because I have an agent and uh Gemma, Gemma Burns. And Gemma, even before she was, you know, my official agent. It was even weird to call her my agent, but basically, um, she's the person who, you know, at the start of my composing career, she's the person who started putting me forward for jobs. And not because I asked her to, but because you know, she was following.
SPEAKER_00She works uh on a commission. Is it like a booking agent, like for any other artist? Is that how it works?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, second percentage, um, depending on if they found you the work or if you bring it to them, you know, those kinds of things. Yeah. And then um, and and since the start of me doing these big jobs like series and films, feature films, uh, she's been taking care of all the contracts, all the negotiations and everything. So um I guess in a way, I wish I had learned a bit more about it, but also I think it's good to be able to have someone that can take care of that for you, just because then, you know, especially when you start a job, you don't want to be negotiating money and you know, you want to talk about creative stuff and you know, get to work and not, you know, not worry. So, but in saying that, of course, she always sends me the contract and I look over it and I make sure that um that it's that it's fair. Um you know, negotiating uh in Australia, you know, you can there's so much that you can push things. Um but uh but you know, we've done it before and and you you can only try. And um, you know, I think there's a worry that if you ask for more money, they're gonna try and go, they're gonna go to the next person. You know, it's like you're gonna be too bit too difficult already, you know, you know. Um so I think a lot of people might not do it. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, so look, it it it really varies, and yeah, um well, I think it pretty much um is self-explanatory in a way that it's it works uh the same as it works uh within other parts of the music industry, you know, like it depends on the situation. Is it a festival? How big is the festival, or like how big is the film, how big is the job? Yeah, I'm I'm interested in in your process. Do you remember the first soundtrack you've composed? I mean the first professional professional or whichever you wanna highlight.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because it's actually yeah, the the first, you know, real short film um that I've done was in 2017. And um I was actually an interpreter at the time. I used to work as a full-time interpreter. Well, yeah, it was part-time, but it was actually full-time um at uh Epping hospital. Um and I actually I didn't like the hospital setting going to Epping. I can't say that I was happy about that. Um actually didn't mind, I didn't mind interpreting and I quite enjoyed it. But um, and basically, though again, you know, it was another phase of mine where I was like, what am I doing with my life? Why am I, you know, in epping, interpreting, you know, when I could be making music and of you know, um, and at the time I was DJing heaps, I was doing lots of festivals like Meredith and you know, lots of different things. And um, so I was quite successful in that sense, but it still wasn't enough. So um, so I actually got online and I started researching some directors, Australian directors, and I came across Charles Williams, uh, who directed Inside, and I emailed him and I said, Hey, you know, it's Chiara, I'd love to, you know, possibly collaborate with you one day. I love your work, this is my music, like you know, like a very informal and other cold email. Um, but yeah, but it seems um I've spoken to some directors, and they all tell me that they get a lot of emails from composer constantly all the time. So it's actually not that unusual. Um but anyway, so then you know, uh Charles said, okay, cool, yeah, all of your music will keep in touch. And a few months later he contacted me and he's like, Look, I'm working on this short film. Uh I've got no budget, like zero. Uh, but if you want to do it, I'd love you to, you know, I'll send you the board, I'll send you the script, let me know. What is the board? What what what's a board? Like a mood board. So it would be a mood board, okay, okay, okay. Yeah, yeah, so a mood board. So it would be some pictures of maybe other films, like just kind of like um, yeah, like an idea of what the film would look like, and also, you know, a bit of a synopsis and tells you all about the characters and you know, the concepts of the film, what they want to achieve, that kind of thing. And uh, and anyway, so then I read the script and and I thought, you know, this sounds great, but also I was thinking I don't want to be in Epping anymore, and I just want to be music, you know. Uh sorry, Epping, but anyway, and so and at the time actually I was going through uh a divorce, and uh, I'd just gone through you know a separation at the time, but still a separation, and I was living with my parents. So um wait a second, your parents uh are in Melbourne, yeah. My parents moved here 12 years ago.
SPEAKER_00Wow, so the entire family migrated to Melbourne from Italy.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Wow, okay, which is crazy.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's crazy. Wow, yeah, I know it's uh it's pretty epic.
SPEAKER_02Um, yeah, and so basically.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, basically, then you know, of course, um I got to my parents and I'm like, that's it, I'm leaving the interpreting job, you know, I've just separated, I'm living with them, I don't have a house, I don't have a job, and I'm like, I'm just gonna, you know, use dad's you know, the office to work on this short film. That's not gonna pay me any money, you know. Um, sounds like a good strategy.
SPEAKER_00Okay, yeah, you warn me about the drastic uh situations in your life. No, no, I I love those, like those are the best uh moments, you know, that's where shit actually happens.
SPEAKER_01That's right, that's right. But you know, at the time, like now saying it back is absolutely insane. And I mean, how lucky I am that my parents, of course, they weren't happy at all, but they never didn't even say, like, no, you know, also, you know, I'm not 16 or anything. So, but I was still living at their place, so you know. It wasn't a good situation. But anyway, so then I decided to do it. And um, and that was you know the first time that I've um basically locked myself in the studio seriously and trying to think about an actual score, you know, for the whole thing with the story, and of course, with Charles, we had spoken about the things that he liked and stuff like that, and that really helped. And so that was really my first collaboration. And then the film got into the Cannes Film Festival that uh next year, and then um it won the the Pandor uh in 2018, which is was huge, right? So then I ended up going to Cannes, and and of course I'm like, this is a sign, uh you know, I have to I have to do this, like this means something. Um and so yeah, and then I came back, and then from there it kind of just yeah.
SPEAKER_00And do you do you think that when you you know you said that that was the first time you locked yourself in a room? That does that mean that when you compose and work on a score, you locked yourself in a room. Is there a particular approach to your process? You just lock yourself in the room. You lock yourself in the room, like turn off the lights. I don't know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I've actually I I've opened all the curtains to take the picture before, but usually it will be pretty, pretty dim lights, yeah. Not not too much because there's you know, there's a lot of sun and stuff coming through because there's windows everywhere, and also for the sound, I think it's nice to just have a little bit of um, but it's not completely dark or anything, you know. I still you know, I still can see outside, but I think you need you need a little bit of a rave, uh uh atmosphere.
SPEAKER_00A bit of a rave vibe, yeah, like 3 a.m. Yeah. Um, but but do you work um yeah? So so okay, you dim the lights, yeah. You you know close the doors, or maybe not. I'm just joking, but like do you wake up at the same time every morning, start to work on the score um on 9 a.m., blah blah blah. Do you treat it as a nine to five job, so to speak? That makes sense.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I try to do that, and um, it just depends. Sometimes I can get up, I'll get up earlier. Sometimes I'm up at six, sometimes I'm up and I stopped setting up alarms just because I I'd rather just wake up when I wake up because it doesn't really matter if I work, you know, at seven or at nine or at ten. But I I do like, especially now that I'm starting to get busy again, I I'm probably gonna start waking up a lot earlier so I can get done, you know, work before the emails come through and before the meetings happen, and you know, because in the day it just kind of yeah, you know, gets lost a little bit. And so um, but yeah, but I do I do like to work to use the morning to do a lot of my work. And then the afternoons are usually a little bit, I don't know, it depends. I always feel weird. It's kind of like the in-between. Um, and then I get a bit more inspiration again, probably around this time, five or six, so I work a little bit later. But again, it depends. Like sometimes I just work heaps and I get enough done during the morning and in the afternoon, and then I take the rest of the day off. So it it it really depends, you know, how much how much I have to make, um, how good I feel about the things that I've made, or if I want to keep, you know, experimenting, or if I've got deadlines and things that I really need to need to, you know, to work on and stuff.
SPEAKER_00And do you think that you are a perfectionist? So can you let go? Like, how hard is it to let go and say I've learned?
SPEAKER_01I've learned how to let go. Yeah. I've learned how to do that, but it's never easy. And every time I listen back to things, I'm so like, I think we all go through this, right? Like yeah, sometimes you listen to something, you're like, okay, this I wouldn't change a thing, but it's yeah, and I think doing this job more and more, it's taught me how to how to just get things done and send them, and you know, you can't, you know, when you got a lot of music to write, um, you can't think too much about things, so you just gotta try and make it as right as you can in the small amount of time that you have, and then you know, is that that moment of sending the music to the director for the first time, which I'm gonna be doing in the next couple of weeks, and I'm freaking out already because you know there's always this worry, you know, that is it gonna be good, is it gonna be right, you know? But it's gonna get to a point where I'm just gonna be like, okay, these are the things that I'm gonna send, and I'm just gonna do it. And every time I'm like, take a deep breathe in, you know, breathe out, go, just send it. And the worst they can say is that they don't like it, and you know, we need to take another direction, or you know, and it's it's part of the job, but um, but I I am a perfectionist, and you know, I work with people as well. I've got some people that have been assisting me with jobs as well as I get more busy, and um, and that's been a little bit of a learning curve for me because when you are so in all about everything, um, it's hard to you know let the other people do what they need to do. So it's been it's been a very, very interesting experience, and I think now I I know how to do that, and um yeah, and so I just I just need to start respecting that as well. Uh, because it doesn't mean that because the directors do it with me, I have to do it with another composer, you know. And it's so of course I need to oversee everything and make sure that it's right for the show, for the film, and you know, so it's you know, it's a hard balance to find, but uh, but yeah, I'm I'm I guess I'm a perfectionist, but I am learning to let go a little bit.
SPEAKER_00How do you know when you're you got it right? Is there is there a particular moment or feeling that tells you okay, that's it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you know, I think the the way that I know if a score is good is that say that I'm working on a series, and then of course, like you kind of know, I don't know, but you kind of know. But then if I take that track and put it against another scene, maybe in another episode, or I put it against in another scene and in the movie, and if that works, even like the scene is not perfect for that scene, but uh um the music, the piece is not perfect for that scene, but even just like if the world is right and it fits, um, it's hard to explain, but that's kind of when I know it's right, or if I do something, sometimes I get a little bit emotional or you know, like I it doesn't happen often, but it's happened in the past. And but again, sometimes I think something's great and right, and then I send it and then like you know, well, this is a great piece of music, but it doesn't quite work for you know whatever we need to do. So uh it's you know, it's it's very hard. And and some projects they come more easy and more natural, and some others is more of a you know, a bit of a tough.
SPEAKER_00This question comes more from a perspective I've never done music for someone else. I've sang, I've I've borrowed my voice, I use my voice for other like for series or whatever. But when I write a song, if I have that gut feeling, like aha moment, this is it, then that's it. I guess I'm just questioning. So, is there a tension between like your artistic freedom, like you you you feel like oh this is right, but then the director says, Oh, this is not right. Is that is that a problem, or like is this just something that you accept? How do you deal with that if it appears? I just uh suck it up and change it.
SPEAKER_01No, no, no, I'm joking. Um uh I just try and understand what what is not right, you know, and and sometimes um it's just having more conversation with the director to try and understand what is it that I'm doing wrong. And most of the times, once I send something and I think it's good, and then they come back with the feedback, I'm like, of course, that totally makes sense, you know. Um, but then there's been because you know, as you know, when you work on something for a while and then you kind of get stuck in this thing, um, you lose objectivity. And so once you send it off and then you leave it there for a few days and then you listen back, you're like, that's why you shouldn't never rush sending anything. But of course, it's impossible with this job. So um, but you know, there is there has been a couple of moments in the in you know, making music with collaborating with directors where I really was struggling to understand what is it that I'm doing wrong and how can I make it right. Um, and so I mean I, you know, I've never I've never said, well, you know, this is me. If you don't like it, hire someone else. Let's put it that way. I always try, yeah. And and I know some people have done it, like some composers wouldn't take wouldn't take it, or you know, they take to a certain point and then that's it. Because of course, um, you know, it's it's hard not to take it personal as well. And then, you know, if you get a lot of feedback, you start losing belief in yourself and you start doubting your skills, and you know, it's it's like a yeah, uh it becomes um messy. Um, but I think, you know, usually I try to be understanding and and always reminding myself that I am working with them and for them as well. And um, otherwise, you know, the day that I will start making music on my own, I'll, you know, I'll give myself my own feedback and that'll be fine. Uh, but it's part of the job, you know, and that's that's what I've learned. It's part of the job. But actually, sometimes, uh, but actually, more times than not, when I've made those changes that I've been asked to do, and when I've pushed myself to try things that I wouldn't have done otherwise, I've created the most interesting things and important things probably that I wouldn't have done. Yeah, it seems like it's it is, yeah. It's a challenge and it's like a level up, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And it's a collaboration not with another musician, um, with a visual person or with a writer, and you know, with the creator of something that uh is not musical, but it informs and it will you know help creating the music, which I find it super interesting.
SPEAKER_00It is, it's actually intriguing, and it seems like you know, it just keeps you just have to push go outside of your comfort zone. So, what are you working on right now?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, um, so I'm just about to start um working on a horror film, which is very exciting because I haven't done a horror before and it's always been a dream of mine. So I think it'll be really good to be able to, you know, go dark and and crazy, hopefully. Um, and then I'm just about to start on a documentary as well. I can't say what it is, you know, the whole confidentiality thing. But you know, they're two really great projects, uh, Australian projects, and so and they're gonna keep me busy till probably October at some point. So it's gonna be three pretty intense months uh trying to get both of these done. Uh so wish me luck. Okay, good luck. I'm sure that's gonna be.
SPEAKER_00I definitely have to be disciplined. What is the best advice uh you ever got as a music maker? Um I don't think I've ever got any advice from anyone. Oh, okay. You can you can give us advice or like a let's say someone wants to go into film composition, what's the the advice that you would give?
SPEAKER_01The advice would be to work really hard on your music, because that's the first and most important thing. Um, if you don't do that, there's no point. So um try to make music that you love making. Don't try and do something that you think people are gonna like or you know, uh something that's trendy or whatever. I don't know. Um, just make it so that it comes from a place that it's that it's you, that it's natural, that it feels right, because you're setting yourself up to possibly do this as a job for a very long time. So you wouldn't be making music that you want to make. I think that's a very important advice that I would give. That is something that I haven't done from the start, so that's why I think it's quite important. Um, and then uh don't be scared, don't doubt yourself too much. A little bit of doubt, of course, it's important. We all have that, uh a little bit or a lot, but I think just um just you know, when you feel like it's the right time to come out and and show your music to the world, um, you know, and it has to come a time, then just do it and risk, you know, things because and I'm the perfect example of how risk has you know created um a completely new dream life for me in a way. Um and um and so risking things and thinking laterally and thinking, you know, thinking big and thinking the impossible, it's gonna make things possible and real and you're gonna create your own reality and uh and you'll never look back, you know. I think that's probably you know the advice that I wish that I wish I had and I I've learned the hard way. And the other thing is ask questions, you know. Come to people like me. Now I've got some experience and I can share, you know, what I've learned in the process, in the journey. And you know, asking questions is important, you know, not too many, but if there's something that you're not sure about, or you know, I think it's really good to rely on on the support of other people that have done this before because it's you know it's a hard, it's a hard job, it's um super beautiful and exciting and rewarding, but it's also yeah, it's a lot. So you have to be strong and ready for the ride.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Thank you. Grazie mille. Oh, grazie aimando italiano, ma bravito. Hey, this is Lucia K. Creator and host of Serial Music Talk podcast. Each month I sit down with musicians, music producers, sound designers, basic developers to talk about the real challenges we face in the industry, whether it's breaking into new markets, battling imposter syndrome, overcoming writers' blocks, or just navigating the cool world of social media. I've heard of these conversations as an artist myself, and it's like most of us I've also just tried to figure it all out. So if you want to stay connected, if you subscribe to my newsletter, yes, I think.
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