Don't be afraid to be sh*t w/ Kai Cult

KAI CULT is the cutting edge Techno Punk project of Louis Fuji, combining diverse influences from Asia with the trendy underground sounds of Punk Rock, Post- Punk, Hardcore, Hyperpop and Techno. Inspired by his roots in Punk and Metal, KAI CULT delivers an explosive and energetic live show. He's built a social media system that works for him so I sat down to find out more about his approaches to content and music making. 

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Transcript

Intro

SPEAKER_00 0:10

Hey, this is Lotia Kiva, the creator and host of the Serial Music Talks podcast. So each month I sit down with musicians, music producers, and sound designers based in Melbourne to talk about the real challenges that we face in the industry, whether it's breaking into new markets, battling imposter syndrome, overcoming writers' blogs, or just navigating the cool world of social media. I approach these conversations as an artist myself, and like most of us, I'm also just trying to figure it all out on the go. A new episode drops every last Thursday of the month. So if you want to stay connected, you can subscribe to my newsletter at find the link somewhere below above.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

How have you been?

SPEAKER_03 0:58

I've been tired. I've just been working a lot and um getting ready for South by Southwest. I really want to showcase some new songs. Like, you know, I've like, yeah, like after the Mex Watch show, like I was like, wow, like this it's actually one of the biggest stages I've ever played. And it gave me some ideas of like what I could do with a sound system that big.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:17

You know what I mean? Made me think, like, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

I always thought that, you know, if you're playing a big show like South by Southwest, you would uh uh maintain the same uh set list, you know, that you're familiar with rather than going into the unknown.

Genre-Hopping

SPEAKER_03 1:32

Um I'm not like that. Like I think like some sometimes like I like look at lineups and like I listen to artists on it and like I get inspired actually. Like I like, oh that's cool. I wonder like what'll happen if like I write something like that. I just keep getting inspiration from like who I play with, you know? It's because sometimes like I don't know, I just feed off like interpersonal energy, you know.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

Because I noticed, you know, from from everything that you share on social media, and we'll get to that as well. Uh you often say, like, oh, you know, listen to this metal slash depth tones uh type of song that I wrote, or listen to this uh Tyler the Creator type of a song that I wrote.

SPEAKER_03 2:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Reverse-Engineering Tracks

SPEAKER_01 2:23

And we'll always wonder, okay, so what is the approach? Do you have the idea, oh, this is the type of a genre that I want to now create?

SPEAKER_03 2:33

I think I just like go on Spotify and like I go on my radio and when I'm at work or driving to work or like in my free time and I just listen to songs and I save them. And then when I get home after work, I'll try and like reverse engineer them. It sounds weird, but like people do that all the time, you know. Like I'll go and like use that as a reference track and then I'll put my own take on it, you know what I mean? Um but generally like what I'm doing for South by Southwest is to have a more consistent sound, but that's kind of how I learn music and you know learn how to produce and write music.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

So do you have do you have any formal education?

SPEAKER_03 3:12

No.

SPEAKER_01 3:13

Okay. When you say more consistent sound, does that mean genre-wise?

SPEAKER_03 3:17

Yeah, genre-wise.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Something that's like recognizable, this is Kaikon.

SPEAKER_03 3:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

And you don't think you have that right now?

SPEAKER_03 3:23

Um, I think I do in a way, but like I I'm really trying to hone in on like what I who I really am and what I really want to sound like, and yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

But I guess it makes sense because um, you know, you you're like you've been investigating and experimenting, and now you're like, okay, I've tried this, this is sort of who I am.

SPEAKER_02 3:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

Because I think that's the only way that you can do it.

SPEAKER_03 3:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

Rather than being immediate, like, oh, this is the this is what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_03 3:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:52

Without even giving a chance to other stuff.

SPEAKER_03 3:55

Yeah, I think it's a very millennial way of doing things, like, don't commit to anything yet until I mean uh, but like, I mean, I my life has always been kind of a journey of like finding who what I liked and what I wanted to sound like, you know, because like um I I grew up with like in Singapore and like the scene's really small, so like uh my friends were playing hardcore bands, and my friends were playing like dance and disco bands, and then my cousin's a DJ, and then like you know, so like I had all these things coming at me at once, and like it was hard to pick a project.

SPEAKER_01 4:35

So, okay, let's go let's go to that. Yeah, yeah. When did you begin to do music?

SPEAKER_03 4:41

Um, I started music um when I was 14.

SPEAKER_01 4:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 4:48

I think my my dad just gave me a guitar from church because he wanted me to play for the worship band, but like I didn't know how to fucking play music. Wow. The worship leader, um, his name is Thomas. Um shout out Thomas from Singapore. He I'm still really good friends with him. He yeah, he was my worship leader, he's around my age. And he was a metal guitarist.

SPEAKER_01 5:10

Can you can you just give me a little bit of background on what it worship leaders? So it's not a specific religion or it was a Christian Methodist church.

SPEAKER_03 5:18

Okay, okay, okay. It was a Christian Methodist church, and um my dad wanted to join the worship team.

SPEAKER_01 5:23

So you got the guitar and you were supposed to play in church, but Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:29

So I went to my friend who was a worship, Thomas, and I was we were trying to learn like you know Hill song, you know, all those like mega church songs. I'm not I don't go to church anymore, or you know, whatever. So um, and like it was going well for like the first hour, but I was like, hey Thomas, I really want to learn how to play people's equal shit by slipknot.

SPEAKER_01 5:51

And so you were already in metal, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:55

And he would detune the acoustic guitar, the drop A for me, or drop B, and then we would play People's Equal Shit by Slipknot.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

Wow, okay. Sick.

Growing Up in Singapore’s Scene

SPEAKER_03 6:06

Yeah, so that was my first musical experience like at Fort. And like, you know, talk like I'm sure a lot of musicians had music in life earlier, but my family, um, my family liked music, but we weren't really like, you know, it wasn't something that was encouraged.

SPEAKER_01 6:21

And it was accessible. Look, I don't know much about uh, you know, growing up in Singapore, but um it you you could access all sorts of music.

SPEAKER_03 6:29

Yeah, like yeah, yeah. I mean, uh obviously there's some bands that the government censored, you know, but like um like what? Marilyn Manson. I I I found a Marilyn Manson CD like soon after that. Let's put it that way. Let's put it that way.

SPEAKER_01 6:47

Yeah, well as soon as it's it was censored, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:50

And like so, um, yeah, I mean, very lucky I grew up in Singapore, like a first world country with you know a lot of contact with the rest of the world, you know what I mean? Um obviously it's still kind of like really authoritarian. So I mean uh I think that's what I like about Singapore, they know they're authoritarian. They know they know what they are, they don't try to hide it.

SPEAKER_01 7:13

So, and you mentioned that the scene is small in Singapore.

SPEAKER_03 7:16

Yeah, it's very small.

SPEAKER_01 7:16

And it's uh is it, you know, I guess because I've been to Singapore and been to some of the gigs there. I was supposed to play there a couple of times, so I know something about the Singapore uh scene, but everything that came to me is like hardcore. Yeah. Is it really just hardcore?

SPEAKER_03 7:32

You mentioned it. It's most it's mostly hardcore. Okay, uh, but like there was some it's it's either like you know, you you play in a hardcore band or you grew up long enough and stay around long enough to start an indie band. So very much my brain was hardcore. I think um I feel like we're not um Singapore Singaporeans, we're not a very musical culture, you know, you compared to the Philippines or even Indonesia, you know. Like we we like working in offices and making money, which is kind of what I was raised to do, like just be an office drone. I'm good at it. I'm good at it, man. Like this is just uh this is the real me, but like you know, you see me in the office, man. I'm locked in. Oh really? I'm on the Excel sheet filling up algorithms, the calc the calculations, you know, like yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

For Spotify? Um your social media ads?

SPEAKER_03 8:29

Oh, oh yes, and also yes, actually, I I we do have Excel spreadsheets for any that's not a that's not later on. You can ask about it later on.

SPEAKER_01 8:35

I have I have those questions.

SPEAKER_03 8:37

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

I'll get to those. Um it's like you know my questions in advance because you are answering them. What did you want to say?

SPEAKER_03 8:45

Like, oh well, so yeah, a lot of the music I grew up with in Singapore was hardcore and metal. Um yeah, it was just an easy way for like kids to get involved in music and you know not really have any talent.

SPEAKER_01 8:59

I had a really uh random experience in Singapore. I was there just it was like a layover, but then something was cancelled. Long story short, I was there for a few days. And then one night me and two other friends, girlfriends, yeah, uh we went into this bar and you know, like we drank the most expensive beer ever. That was still while I was in Croatia, where you know you can drink for like two dollars, right? And uh we pay$28 for fun big one beer. And at one stage, karaoke starts, and you know, uh they're like, hey, go and sing one song. And I'm like, you know, why? They're like, come on, let's have fun. And I start singing this song, and the owner of the bar does a lock-in, he locks in the bar, and we get drunk and drink in the bar all the way until 6 a.m. What? And it was the best night ever. Was this home club? I don't remember the name of the venue, yeah, where it was.

SPEAKER_03 9:54

Sounds sounds like home club.

SPEAKER_01 9:55

So drunk. It was like my me, two of my friends, and another five people, including the owner.

SPEAKER_03 10:02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

And I was like, this is crazy.

SPEAKER_03 10:04

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's kind of what I miss about it. That's kind of what I miss about it. Like, um, I guess people are time for each other, you know, it's just a small scene.

SPEAKER_02 10:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Getting in trouble in Melbourne

SPEAKER_03 10:15

Like, you know, like I guess like in Melbourne, like, I mean, we still do that stuff in Melbourne, but like it's like not as personal, you know, like I don't really get a rubber shoulders or like get to know people that much when in a busy city like Melbourne, you know.

SPEAKER_01 10:29

But why did you move to Melbourne?

SPEAKER_03 10:31

Well, funny you say that, because um well, I grew up in Singapore and I'm I wasn't really good at anything really. Um, and I failed high school. I actually fully flunked my O levels. So in Singapore we use the the British system with our own kind of like um take to it. So I failed my O levels, and if you fail your O levels, you can't really do anything in Singapore basically. So I kind of kicked around for like three years.

SPEAKER_01 11:01

What what what what what was the reason?

SPEAKER_03 11:04

That I failed my O levels because I was playing in like sleep punk fans. I I was just I I was just like I was just like you know like um I don't know I I was just really distracted and I wasn't really invested in what I was studying. I mean they were they were teaching me to memorize things but they weren't really teaching me to be critical and that really bores me. I like I like given being given the skills to to think and construct my own reality, which which happens a lot in Australia, which is also quite daunting because I was taught to memorize things, but now to talk I was taught to memorize and regurgitate things. And then now I have to literally make everything up on the spot, which is good, which is what I wanted, but like you know, it's yeah, it's like very um it challenges me in a good way, if you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_01 12:01

Yeah, it's a it's a completely opposite, it's like a completely different mindset.

SPEAKER_03 12:04

And my I think my mom saw that I wasn't really in a good spot, and she was like, I don't have a lot of money, but I have just some more money, and um, do you want to go to Australia? Because like you are doing fucking nothing for your life. Like and like I was actually getting quite a lot of trouble. Like I was like um in Do you know do you know um what what Escheys are?

SPEAKER_01 12:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 12:29

So I used to hang out with like the Shays of Singapore, where we call them like our bangs.

SPEAKER_02 12:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 12:35

Used to hang out with like some pretty like bad people, and like I was getting a lot of trouble, like nothing, like they they got in trouble with the police, but like I didn't, and like she was just like Yeah, like you you're gonna fuck up your life. And I can tell like you like because we went to Australia like you know on holidays, and um, yeah, I mean she was like yeah, you're gonna have to like pay your rent and stuff, but you know, I'll pay for your degree, and yeah, that's what happened.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

I came so you you came through the student visa. Like a student.

SPEAKER_03 13:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:09

Okay, and how old were you then?

SPEAKER_03 13:11

22. Okay. Ten years ago.

SPEAKER_01 13:14

Okay. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 13:15

Damn.

SPEAKER_01 13:16

Oh wow. But you're a citizen now. That that's right.

SPEAKER_03 13:22

Yeah, yeah, that's that's right, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

You know, last time we we had that uh drinks over in Norcord, it was uh after lockdown, you know, you were I was very stressed. Yeah, yeah. I was very real very stressed, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, well, it takes a toll. I got my PR this year at the beginning of this year, and it's just like so much bureaucracy, so much, I don't know, just this sense of like you're not knowing if this is where you can stay.

SPEAKER_03 13:46

Well, it it got really it was fine for me in my early 20s because I was just partying. But in my we got to my my later 20s, which is kind of when I got my PR. I really wanted to think about what kind of future I wanted to have for myself, and you know, like it it it was hard to plan that. And because it's something that I feel like is quite natural when you get to the age, you want to plan for like what you wanna do, what you want to work, what job field you know you want to work in, what kind of thing you wanna work in, and like because the visa wasn't sorted, like I couldn't um I couldn't plan, and that really like set me off because I like planning. Like, funny enough, I like planning.

SPEAKER_01 14:25

I don't know, I'm not that surprised. Yeah, yeah. You might seem like you're you know, like um crazy.

SPEAKER_03 14:34

I am crazy, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:36

Not in a bad way, more like uh, you know, you're just like very direct, very open, loud, and people can categorize that as crazy because it's not like the you know mediocre.

SPEAKER_02 14:47

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:48

But um, you know, from from from what you've been doing on what I can see on socials and with your music, it seems like you know, there's a plan, there's a strategy.

SPEAKER_03 14:56

Oh yeah, there's definitely a strategy.

SPEAKER_01 14:57

Definitely a strategy.

SPEAKER_03 14:58

There's definitely a strategy and what's the strategy?

SPEAKER_01 15:00

What's the maybe let's start with this? What is the what's the goal?

SPEAKER_03 15:04

I think the the goal is ultimate goal. I think the ultimate goal is to it's gonna sound super tech broy with me, but like, you know, like just develop sources of passive income. You know, it's it's okay yeah, because um like obviously like um and this transcends music, you know, because like obviously obviously Spotify isn't you know paying us a lot, so uh I have friends and the good thing about Singapore is that we've got a lot of influencers who are rich. And and they um they always make TikToks. So I've got a lot of friends who are influencers back in Singapore, and like they are share, they share with me like what they make off YouTube, what they uh they don't make stuff off Spotify, maybe like donations live and stuff. Sorry, um TikTok, they don't really the creative program is in there, but like a lot of my friends are YouTubers.

SPEAKER_01 15:55

It's like TikTok is a way for them to like be hey, I exist, and then you go on your YouTube, and that's where you get the so TikTok is the funnel, yeah, and YouTube is YouTube pays a lot.

SPEAKER_03 16:04

Like, I'm not sure how much it is per view, but like I remember my friend like sharing me a screenshot, it was like$800 payout monthly.$800. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 16:14

Yeah, but how much time does she them or oh I don't yeah invest?

SPEAKER_03 16:21

I think like um it's the algorithm is different now, but back in my day, which is like 10 years ago, it was brutal. Yeah, like they made like 120 videos and they started they could monetize, you know? And now to join a YouTube partner program is like um a thousand a thousand subscribers, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

Okay, so I have many questions. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so the first thing, ultimate goal is to get, you know, is that does that mean that you want to live from music?

SPEAKER_03 16:47

Or from your from creativity.

SPEAKER_01 16:50

Oh from creativity, generally from creating content and music.

SPEAKER_03 16:54

Yeah, uh music's one facet of that, I feel, you know, and it's something that I'm familiar with, so I decided to go with that. And obviously that led me to like making videos, you know, in my bedroom, which is which is videography and vlogging, do you know what I mean? So um I I I do like really enjoy making music and I mean I wish if if that could be the main source for sure, but like it's it's it's it looks really hard for like emerging artists these days, you know, because um I've been doing music for a long while, but Kai Kart has only been for like five years and the landscape has changed so much since then.

SPEAKER_01 17:30

Why do you think what why do you think it's card?

SPEAKER_03 17:33

What is the I think um now everything is based on algorithm and if you want to naturally and organically engage with human beings, you gotta put on shows in real life, right? Which cost a lot of money now. And it's it's like it used to be pay to play, but now it's even more pay-to-play, you know what I mean? And I'm a bit disappointed by that. Um but that in a way gives me more ideas about how because how would I say this? Like, um well if physical spaces are declining, which I don't want to happen, but you know, it is happening, and we're all moving online, um I still can find ways to communicate to people, you know, and like TikToks and like Instagram content helps, and obviously like from an artist standpoint that's not really ideal, you know, but then I start looking at like things like a like a YouTuber, like you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

And it sounds bad, but like look, I don't think it's a it's a matter of like it does it sound bad. It's more like my question to you is like does it make you happy? Yeah, okay, well, you know.

SPEAKER_03 18:40

Yeah, I I really like making content and I like talking to the camera.

SPEAKER_01 18:44

That's that's then great, great, because my next question would be you know, okay, maybe we can do it like this. Tell me your screen time. Let's just screen time because I think I literally message you and you respond like Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:03

So this week, um, I mean I've worked like 20 hours this week. Uh four hours daily. This week, last week it was seven hours.

SPEAKER_01 19:14

Daily.

SPEAKER_03 19:14

Yeah, average.

SPEAKER_01 19:15

Whoa.

SPEAKER_03 19:16

So straight when I get like honestly, like when I'm on lunch break and whatever, I just like and you have like all push notifications on. It's like no no no, uh some I have it off, but I just check it anyway. But then like I try to reduce it by like scheduling my TikToks and content, but then I still check it. So like I can't get off it.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

Like do you do you ever does it ever drain you?

SPEAKER_03 19:40

Yeah, it does. Actually, like um, I'm glad you called me out today because like it's my day off and I would have just spent it.

SPEAKER_01 19:46

We can just spend and talking about in in real life.

SPEAKER_03 19:50

Yeah, I I mean like I I'm glad because like um yeah, I would have spent it on my phone and like I um this week I specifically like didn't want to make content because it's been tiring, do you know what I mean? But then then I'm on my phone anyway. So I'm just like so. I'm starting to like uh so I've been sketching my TikToks through TikTok Studio and Instagram reels. Um so I've I've been I've been you uh blocking my TikTok app and only allowing the TikTok studio app.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

So it's like the one sec app or no?

SPEAKER_03 20:24

No, no, it's um so TikTok Studio is uh no it's um at block. Oh but um so I've been this week been kind of my time, but like this morning I woke up, I was like, oh fuck is my day off. And I literally like I think I woke up at like seven and I scrolled in bed until like 9:30. Then I went out and made some eggs and drove to visit right.

SPEAKER_01 20:45

Do you do you think you know because I I feel like you know, from everything that I can see from your videos, uh just this morning, you know, I was checking your Instagram. Um I'm not like I am I have an account on TikTok and I sort of just like reshare something that I create for reels, but I'm actually not there at all. I I get really overwhelmed with like it is overwhelming. It's like I really don't like when there's no quiet, you know what I mean? Like it just videos going on. I just want a moment of peace, and then I can decide.

SPEAKER_03 21:17

I'm starting to realize that now.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_03 21:19

I think my tolerance is a lot higher because I've always had a computer addiction, but like anyway, go on, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

Uh but uh what I was saying is you know, like how do you uh have the time to do yes, okay? Let's go back. I forgot. So, what I wanted to s say is that I saw your um story on Instagram saying, Oh, you know, I haven't been playing music for two months, uh, but now like uh sorry, no.

SPEAKER_03 21:49

Sorry, man. Yeah.

Content Days , Music as the daily engine.

SPEAKER_01 21:51

Um so you've been playing so I saw on your Instagram story that you you haven't been playing shows for two months, but you three months, yeah. Three months, but you got But you're now back with like a catalog catalog of like seven songs and five uh minutes of new music. Yeah, yeah. So how what's the ratio between you creating content and music?

SPEAKER_03 22:11

Oh, so for content, I've got content days. So Sundays and my content days.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

So here's the strategy.

SPEAKER_03 22:17

Yeah, yeah. So Sundays is content days and I just batch film for the week. And that takes like two, three hours. And I usually do that like when I do my meal prep. It's also you know, so sometimes some defrosting shit, or like it's making a soup or like whatever, you know. So uh yeah, Sundays are like um my con I batch film them and then I schedule right after that. Um and then for music it's every day. Um music can be replaced of anything, like if I want to make like a YouTube video, you know what I mean? But like so, like I said, like when I'm like in the car in transit to places, I'll listen to songs and I'll save them. And then I'll put these songs into my DAW and I'll try and reverse engineer them and like maybe I'll I'll grab the synth sound or the song structure or like the drum sound, and I'll just start learning, I'll I'll make my own version of that song. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 23:16

Okay, I I still have a few more questions about the social media. Oh yeah, for sure. But no, I think I think you know, when I was um talking with some other people, I was like, I always mention you as a really good example of someone who's like very driven.

SPEAKER_03 23:32

Oh yeah, 100%. Basically driven. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:34

And I always wonder, you know, where's that drive coming from? And I'm you know, you and I had few conversations. You were the only person on the music scene with whom I had really sincere conversations about the tall puppy syndrome, about you know, like pushing and going for it, and like not being, I guess, ashamed of that you're putting effort and you're afraid to lose. And one of the things that I've noticed, for example, when you were putting that show at Matt Max Watts, you know, you were all in. It's like all in. Yeah, I was all in. I feel like when I'm seeing some other shows happening across Melbourne, it's like one step there, one step, it's outside. Yeah, I know. Um so what do you think? Do you think that you stand out of the house?

SPEAKER_03 24:15

Well, I I feel like well, I never really had opportunities like that in Singapore. Um, I mean, like I was, you know, the scene is just really suffering right now. I mean, every music scene is suffering right now, but in Singapore, like, it's always been a bit suppressed. And, you know, I remember like my first international support. Um, I don't know who maybe it was Little Lotus in Melbourne, but like that was huge for me. Because I never thought like I would support any anyone. Like, we just we just played with each other, you know. Like we just play hard cost shows in like um I think there used to be uh a Chinese ceremonial hall. We used to have black metal shows in, and I used to go and it wasn't treated, so like you know how black you know black metal like it's it sounds shit. So like it all I hope was But then like for some reason like I had like whiplash after that show. It was I just hit bang. I don't know why, it was just like it was like it's like this black metal show in this Chinese ceremonial hall, and like sound was just bouncing everywhere because it was a fucking haul. And then like it was the hardest thing I've ever seen in my whole life. That to me was like hard. It's good that you don't have tinitos, you know like oh I actually have like um so my previous housemate, um I remember because in my previous share house, like the TV room was like at the end of the house and the bedroom was at the other end. Okay, and it was like you know, ones like long hallway, Melbourne share houses, like and like so I was just watching TV and he was working from home and he was like, Can you turn it down? I was like, dude, I can't hear this TV. And I was right in front of the TV.

SPEAKER_01 25:51

Okay, maybe have you ever got your ears checked?

SPEAKER_03 25:53

I am going to because I I realized, like, I mean, like even when you were testing my mic, I was clipping the mic. I just I have to speak louder because I just my hearing is fucked.

SPEAKER_01 26:04

Well, it's good if you don't have any buzzing, you know.

SPEAKER_03 26:06

No, I don't have any buzzing.

SPEAKER_01 26:07

But you know, it's still early enough to just yeah, it's whatever.

SPEAKER_03 26:11

I I do wear hearing protection now, but um because uh you do.

SPEAKER_01 26:15

Because I also haven't so I've changed that since I moved to Melbourne. Because back in Croatia we would, you know, have our rehearsal, and I had at one stage we had like two drums. Yeah I would stand in in between those two drums, and it's just like a concrete room, like an X factory, and you know, the cymbals and everything. I've never ever, and I played music for 13 years, never wore any ear protection whatsoever. Never. And then never. And then I moved here, and I the first person I met who is my now really close friend of my Vlad, he's a drummer and he had to stop playing drums because of uh tinnitus. And at that point, I went booked in an audio, whatever, and now I wear protection. I was even, you know, organizing live shows. I've never worn protection.

Tall poppy tension + laser focus

SPEAKER_03 27:02

Well, that's what I like about Austria. I guess people have more time to take care of their healthier. Yes, like we we like I I didn't like you know my my mom like worked from like 7 a.m. to 7 p.m. Yeah, and I went to school from 6 a.m. to 4 p.m.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

But do you think that that translated then you know that hustle, that's sort of a I guess I guess the question, let's let's be real, I'm like beating around the bushes. Like, do you think as a migrant there is a difference between how you approach things?

SPEAKER_03 27:30

Yeah, yeah. I feel I feel like I don't really take opportunities for granted here. Like like when I get it, I'm like, this actually I've never like when Steph from X Watts approached me to put on a show, I was like, no one I've no one's ever asked me to do something like this before. Yeah, fuck yeah. And like, yeah, you know, I like I you know I I come from just a very small scene and like you know, like even when like international bands come down to Singapore, like Life Nation books them, and then they don't book any local supports. So you know what I mean? Like, so we don't get to like interact with like the Western music industry that often, even though they come to our country, it's it's it's fucking weird. So like yeah, I I um I I don't like taking opportunities for granted and like when I I like being very precise and you know laser focused with like my task. So like if the task is to get people pairs into Maxwatts and whatever I do in my day-to-day you know content strategy has to lead to that outcome. Do you know what I mean? And because I'll if if it if it's not that then I'm just wasting my time online, right? Might as well just like scroll on reels and like comment like laugh emoji, flame emoji, do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 28:49

Heard, no, no, I like uh I agree. I think you know what what really um interests me, you know, because honestly, like I struggle, especially lately. I you know, I'm like I read that book from Liz Pelly Mood Machine about Spotify and like been really going through reason like a lot of through a lot of research that has been done around Spotify and it's like you know creating this meaningful uh meaningless.

SPEAKER_03 29:17

It is meaningless.

SPEAKER_01 29:19

And then you know, like the content, I feel like it it's been homo homogenized on you know, you go on Instagram and all of a sudden everyone is having the same photo shoots, you know what I mean? I'm just sorry, I I just want to say like when I see what you're doing, it seems like you're you're you're you don't give a damn about no of it's happening, you're just doing that, and that in a s in a weird way that gives me hope.

SPEAKER_03 29:43

That's how you stand out because everyone is I think what I realize is that like people know when they're being sold something, but if it if you make them laugh, you can sell them things even more. It seems like you're being yourself, yeah, yeah, and like it took me many years uh to to find that stride. I mean, it could be argued that like my whole life I've been trying to find this voice, and um I think with the rise of content I found it and it and also like growing older, you know, like um it came at the right time where I was like, I think I know who I am, but also know that like who I am is too weird not to keep it to myself. Do you know what I mean? Like I I'm I'm pretty strange.

SPEAKER_01 30:27

I think you're no, I think you're very special in uh you know in in the most best way. Yeah, yeah. I think that's the whole point being an original because we are that, you know, each one of us.

SPEAKER_03 30:41

Yeah, I feel I feel like that's that's what's gonna set, you know, like because look, let's put it this way, like a lot of people in music have talent. Do you know what I mean? But like when you sing so good, you kind of sound like other good singers. But if you if you're a shit singer, you definitely sound like it, you know, like like if you do you know what I mean? Like if if you're a shit singer. Yeah, I mean like because you sound like yourself. Because you know, I think like I think this is especially like with Gen Z. I think like they've um not had that experience or they've not like had the space for them to make mistakes. Whereas as millennials, like, you know, we I used to remember growing up playing in playgrounds and scraping my legs and you know trying to touch fire, do you know what I mean? Like I would like, oh sparkle, oh ow, ow, that hurts. But like, you know, Gen Z didn't have that, so they don't really they're not they're very hard on themselves. I feel like uh Gen Z. Like they um they they're they've grown up like not being able to make mistakes and be imperfect because all their perception of what things should be is online and a lot of things online are made to seem perfect. Yeah, which is weird because I'm always online, but like I can never get a space because I know what real life looked like.

SPEAKER_01 32:00

Yeah, so it seems like you found found a good spot, yeah. Sweet spot. Yeah to like it's not getting in the way. That's really good. I I've I have to admit that it's you know, I will I will think about this conversation. Yeah, because I really was struggling. I was like, you know, because every time I think what bothers me is that it takes me, how how long does it take you to make that content or make decisions? Is this the right thing?

SPEAKER_03 32:30

Good question.

SPEAKER_01 32:30

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 32:31

Good question. So when I'm driving to work, when I'm doing my day-to-day stuff, I think about stupid captions, you know, because like I think about ideas and I write down my notes.

SPEAKER_01 32:40

And you don't think that sorry, before I forget this question, but you don't then come you don't think that that thinking about content is actually taking away space where you could think about songs.

SPEAKER_03 32:51

Not really. Okay, I think like I mean I think a lot of my my content is like quite humorous, and like it's like looking at life through like I'm just laughing at life, and like sometimes like you know, I'll go day to day and like maybe like someone in traffic pissed me off. I'll put it into my voice though. It's like yeah, imagine like driving a BMW, like I'll just think about jokes about BMW owners, and then that becomes my Instagram caption.

SPEAKER_01 33:15

So you use voice memos?

SPEAKER_03 33:16

Voice memos on like notes.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

Oh okay, yeah, I use notes, but I never met voice. Maybe I should start using voice memos.

SPEAKER_03 33:21

I think I think like thinking about content ideas and music comes in tandem because I'm listening to music. So I I get inspiration from music from listening to music and living my day-to-day life, and then my content is inspired by my day-to-day life. Do you know what I mean? So it it can't it doesn't have to be exclusive. Like I think the best content is when you reframe an everyday occurrence, something that happens to everyone, you know. Like we all go to work, we all go to school, we all drive a car, and then we're kind of like, but what if what if cars had legs? What if we all rode horses? Do you know what I mean? What like you know, like how much greenhouse gases would horses create compared to cars? You know, like like like you know, I'm because I'm looking, I'm like looking at a car right now, I'm thinking, what if that was a fucking horse? Do you know what I mean? Like, so there's like this like healthy level humor, maybe a healthy cynicism towards day-to-day life that helps me think about content, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 34:17

I know, yeah, there's a lot of content up here where we're sitting at.

SPEAKER_03 34:21

So I feel like, yeah, I feel like I don't it just comes to me.

SPEAKER_01 34:25

Yeah, okay, but it makes sense now, you know, uh uh now that you said that because you did say at the beginning that it's not just music exclusively that you want to create. Yeah, yeah. To enjoy creating content. Yeah, yeah. So it makes sense. Uh I think for me the the the starting point is difficult because I immediately think, oh, they're they they shouldn't go together. You know, I'm like so exclusive in a sense, oh I've chosen as a medium rather than videos, you know what I mean?

What’s Actually Working (merch sales, TikTok, DMs)

SPEAKER_03 34:55

Yeah, and like sometimes that can be very painful because uh the the medium of promoting music is so different from making music. Yes, right, you know, so it's completely different. Yeah, it's completely different, you know. Like music is a very vulnerable and sensitive space, and making content is a very uh egotistical, you know, vain space. So like um I've learned how to partition that. Um, I mean, like I said, like I I'm from Singapore, everyone is an influencer. It's like a Dubai type shit. Like, like I'm like, like go go and go go to like any kind of like public famous landmark in Singapore, and there's like hundreds of people making TikToks in front of it. Wow, okay, yeah. And it and like it's shameless. Like I just came right from Bali and like people were just doing dances in front of temples. Oh yeah. And like, and like it was like, I mean, it was like hundreds of like Indonesians, it wasn't just the tourists, it was like the Indonesians were doing it too, you know. And like, I don't know, no one gives a fuck.

SPEAKER_01 35:52

Okay, but maybe uh another question is is it working? Is it working? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Giving you this hustle that you have on online, yeah, this whole strategy. Can you qualify it? Is it like I mean palpable?

SPEAKER_03 36:06

Yeah, I mean, I um I made like you know, you know my merch, right? The chopsticks.

SPEAKER_01 36:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:13

I sold$500 worth of chopsticks by making dollars a piece. Yeah, so I sold 50 pairs of chopsticks with like with like my online content. Wow. And like and and with TikTok, um I made a new TikTok account actually.

SPEAKER_01 36:27

Because oh I remember that. So you were you had one TikTok account. It wasn't then you were testing some new ones, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:33

Okay, yeah, so like the my main one just I was stuck in like 200 view jail, and like I was just like, okay, I'm gonna make a new TikTok, and I'm not gonna add my contacts list. It's gonna be like, you know what I mean? Like, I'm gonna tell TikTok that like I'm a new user and they should push me. So then I started posting two times a day on that, and I went from like zero followers two months. This was this after Max Watch too. So three months ago, zero followers. I'm almost at 5k followers. And I use whenever I make a TikTok, I use my songs, and now with TikTok, it links your song from TikTok so you can save songs on Spotify or like Title or Apple through TikTok. Oh wow. So I've seen I've seen a direct correlation between my So your Spotify is growing. Yes, my monthly streams, and I mean at least the question as well to like the sustainability of it, because you know I like I I have that like discipline to like bash film content. You know what I mean? And like I think a lot of artists like they don't have time.

SPEAKER_01 37:36

How many of your peers are doing that?

SPEAKER_03 37:38

Not many.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:39

I I feel like a lot of um my peers are doing this with music, they're not in Australia. Like I I don't think this approach is popular in Australia. And I and that's kind of why I like a lot of Australia because they tend to resist things before it just becomes the norm. Content takes a lot from a lot of my energy, and some weeks I don't feel like doing it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 38:00

But you also um from what I could see from your again social media. I know much about your life actually through social media. Um I saw that you've been doing like co-production, you've been doing production for other artists, yeah. Or like collaborations.

SPEAKER_03 38:15

That that's is that you know something that also came from your yes, yes, so so Louis Surreal, uh who my latest single, Sunshine, he's from the Netherlands. And well they're from the Netherlands, and like um like we met each other on Instagram. Yeah, we met on Instagram through like I guess like with I guess we met from Exactly. We met over Instagram, exactly, exactly, and that's how I meet a lot of people. Yeah, and yeah, um I've actually been getting like production work. Like I'm I can't speak a lot about it yet, but like, yeah, I've got like my first few pieces of production work through um Americans messaging me for beats. Sick. Which is which is crazy.

SPEAKER_01 38:58

So it means that the uh you know you're close to the ultimate uh goal, you know, like making content for a living?

SPEAKER_03 39:06

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:07

I mean like like like it's cool, like you know, like But do you in comparison so so um you know talking about that goal, um you now have it's so what is the ratio between your day job and uh do you do you have a full-time job?

SPEAKER_03 39:24

I work I work part-time hours, but because I'm an independent disability social worker, like uh I can pick my own hours. Okay. So some weeks if I need to like lock in on a song, I can work 20 hours and like I'll just tell my clients' parents because I work with autistic kids, so um, I'll just tell them, hey, like I'm not gonna have these hours available, and then because of the the nature of the apps they're on, Mabel and stuff, they can like find another replacement worker. I feel like I can find a replacement worker for them for the week. So if I want to, I can cut down the hours. Okay. So that's a really good job arrangement, but it is a really taxing job. It's um yeah, it's really taxing. It's like not something I want to be in longer, but like it's pacing well, and like you know, um I'm an independent worker, so I work so like I either create a profile on on the disability app and people message me too. So I'm also managing my profile on the disability apps, which is cool. Like, you know, so like it's it's see it makes it all content. It actually, yeah, like yeah, it's all content. Like my you know, my my experience making content allowed me to create this like you know really professional looking profile for me on the disability apps, and then you know, I approach people, the parents approach me and like be like, hey, you're in the area, you're a good fit for let's find out if you're a good fit for my kid. And you usually it's fine because like um I think like kids like me, because a lot of social workers, like or disability workers, they're like they're like this like they're like Christian and they want to convert the kids to Christianity. But I I don't I don't give a fuck. I'm just here to help the kid and like you know I'm I'm I I talk I'll talk how they want to talk to me. Do you know what I mean? I don't like be like there's no like um You're equals. Yeah, we're equals. I'm not like you know like patronizing them. I'm not gonna like yeah, like, you know, I'm there to help them. They're they employ me.

SPEAKER_01 41:22

Yeah, and also to perhaps inspire them. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. You can, you know, do do such things through, you know, showing them how what's possible.

SPEAKER_03 41:30

Yeah, absolutely. Um, and like I mean a lot of them have autism and they're gamers, so I mean, like, I I play a lot, I mean all this came from playing video games. Like basically the time I spend making content was the time I would be spending playing video games.

SPEAKER_01 41:43

Hmm. Um sounds like fun, but I know you can be draining.

SPEAKER_03 41:47

Hold up, that's Ashley Olson, who's really famous on TikTok. Really? Yeah, that's that's Ashley Olson. She like the chick with the tattoos, like she's really famous on TikTok.

SPEAKER_01 41:57

Okay, I have to send it. No, no, people send no.

SPEAKER_03 41:59

I'll s I'll send I'll send you I'll send you her profile later, but I'm such a big fan. But I just so you know, all the listeners, that I just saw Ashley Olson in the flesh in FitzRoy.

unknown 42:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:11

Obviously, she's on her phone. Okay, if you want to talk about someone with content, you should talk to her because she'll she posts TikToks every 15 minutes.

SPEAKER_01 42:23

What?

SPEAKER_03 42:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:24

So it's pretty much like a a vlog of your life. Yeah. Like a life vlog.

SPEAKER_03 42:28

Yeah. She'll she'll like be like at Pilates and vlogging, she'll be like drinking coffee and vlogging. Like, I can't believe I just saw Ashley Olsen in real life, but like she was like, she's she was on her phone. Yeah, she was on her phone, but like, yeah, that's Ashley Olson.

SPEAKER_01 42:42

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 42:43

So yeah, um, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:47

So it seems like what is the you you mentioned something about live shows. I'm just curious. In in a sense, you know, as a musician, you think that that's just not something that's feasible anymore. Like, can you get a good fee?

SPEAKER_03 43:00

Can you do you think it's sustainable or I think this is happening all across the world. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure you have started some Croatia as well, but we just lost a really big venue in Singapore called the Projector. You know, I mean, like we we're lucky in a sense we get to have the experience of two worlds. And a lot of things, a lot of the same things are happening. Right, you know what I mean? Like the the loss of these spaces and look, um I really don't know where it's gonna hit. Something has to give because um something has to give because we're losing these third spaces, like you know, like we I remember like I used to go over to my friend's house and like play Xbox, but now like we just go online and talk to each other on Discord and play X, you know, and play video games. I remember like um I would go to the mall with my friend and we just walk around and not buy anything. maybe steal some stuff from the but you know but like but we would you know like we would go to the mall and like you know hang out still in the flesh yeah it was in the flesh hang out and like um I guess because my fan base is also pretty like Gen Z so like I I kind of get I meet I meet some of them you know I mean and like I and like I talk to them and like they're they're all like yeah add me on Discord and like yeah and then we just talk on Discord and like it's just like this is how they do it and like um and then once in a while you know they'll throw like a house party and like yay it's time to get off Discord and meet people in real life and then you just like and like I just talk sometimes I go to the some of their parties and it's like how long has it been since you left the house like three six five weeks and I'm like are you kidding me like yeah it's like I kinda thought they kind of thought to leave the house I mean like sometimes they go you know and then they spend all their Sandlink money on like drinks you know I mean it's just like yeah like like one night out bankrupts them. Wow so I think the future of live music if I were to speak very frankly would be a hybrid of like online and in real life stuff. I think like you kind of have to like um build this online following and then hope they appear in real life. But also you can but there's a smart way to go about it if you make content that's local to your area if you make content about you being a Melbourne artist then obviously you attract people from Melbourne you know so that there are ways to tailor content to that but I think our much like you know the stuff you know during the virtual concerts you know like during lockdown like um we live we're living in a digital hybrid world and um like I mean as much as I talk about highlight content and all that stuff like I mean meeting people in real life is good. You know that's how you learn social skills. I think that's the problem with like not not just like yeah like in my work because I work with autistic kids and you know they're like they're Gen Z you know I mean and like it's um they have very poor social skills um and I can relate because I grew up on the internet you know as a young kid you know like um like I remember like that's how I discovered about my local scene right like they would post about it on forums and you know bullet bulletin bots you know and like I would just go to the shows because I saw them online. But that that to me was still a very niche experience for some people do you know what I mean but now it's like at now it's the norm. Yeah they discover you online and they go to your show and then sometimes you've got the benefit of like you know this what what I like about what Tunglisova does you know they have such a nice furious life experience that you you have to see life that you can't you can't translate that. Like you can you can go online and you know very little of it which creates mystique mystique do you know what I mean so um I like that that's I think that that there is possibility in that sense. There's possibility for everything you just have to like work around this pesky thing called the algorithm.

SPEAKER_01 47:12

Yeah yeah and I I mean there's some days where the algorithm likes me and some days where it doesn't so like it's it's actually really concerning because there's some what what if like there was some important news would it just because no one's doing a dance with we not get you know on on the internet you know how much do you think that the algorithm is um you know uh evil no no no like maybe like let we don't have to go you know in more like a precise example like how much do you think algorithm affects uh your music or what do you do as content?

SPEAKER_03 47:48

Do you think you know is it is there a tension between what you want to create as content and what it will work you're right um that that's a really good point because there are some forms of music that are really unfriendly to content um like you know I I mean I like a lot of experimental stuff a lot of ambient drone like harsh noise and like you know a lot of like really heavy like gabba shit you know I mean and like I have songs like that actually and I try making TikToks around them and they don't work. So these so these songs are very like these kind of genres are very algorithm unfriendly so you kind of have to see them in real life. So like like I said before like um you only have like one to five seconds to catch attention on on these apps and if you're making really experimental genres for music it's not gonna work because you're gonna flip between and you're gonna scroll past but that kind of creates like a special space for these genres in real life.

SPEAKER_01 48:54

So I mean you'd say you know like not all your songs let's say not all your songs are are equally successful in content wise but that doesn't stop you to from making more of them yes or performing them.

SPEAKER_03 49:06

Yeah yes so so like that like I think at this point in time I only have really four songs that I regularly rotate on TikTok because I've tried a lot of my songs and I think the concern is it's like because some genres of music and some songs are very you know like content unfriendly it might cause them to be more unpopular you know but like that also kind of makes them special you know because those genres will always exist in this space you know which is real life you have to experience these things in real life so like um I mean it got me thinking as well you know like it's so everything is just manufactured I mean think about the pot vault you know everything is manufactured for that five seconds and there's a time and space for that yeah you know but like I always feel that will always be a resistance to that and there'll be time and space for people who want to do the opposite and I'm sure there's a lot of people who don't like content and TikTok who I mean yeah I think there is still room for those you know you you like you know you can create a mystique because everyone is like uncovering a lot of things online you know there could be an interesting moment for those artists who are not uh showing everything online yeah yeah yeah as you mentioned tank dizio yeah yeah yeah but um yeah uh okay I guess it's good that it's not affecting you in that sense you know it's not all that bad because there will always people always create space for the things they like and like that's what I like about punk and metal is that like they they live in their own ecosystem and they reject you know all these new things sometimes for better for worse but you know I mean it will there'll always be a space for that in the punk scene and DIY scene hardcore scene and you know whichever you know I mean the experimental scene you know and do you think that there's anything this is not just social media wise but like in general in your career in your journey towards that ultimate goal of life is that like what something that's like limiting you or like or you know really in the way like uh the algorithms anything wise it could be five things I think I think the obstacle now is that like um I think the only I mean uh the only obstacle for me now is that like I'm not making enough vlogs and that's where the money is at because um I don't know if you be looking at your YouTube feed now it's like 20 minutes of someone talking about random shit in Bali or some shit and it's unedited uncolor grated it's filmed on their phone it's like off the calf and like they made their point in the first five minutes but to further increase the monetization they make it into a 20 minute view. Yeah so like like the thing with YouTube is like you can make your point in five minutes. So stretch your point over 20 minutes and you can earn more money from it. But um my my okay what's getting between that is like I I need to make more vlogs.

SPEAKER_02 52:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 52:10

And but the vlogs take a lot of work and that takes away from making music. But like I don't mind taking a break from making music to make vlogs. So it's like this always like so it's all about all organization discipline right yeah it it's all like just trading trading that you know I mean like I'm like either way when I get home from work like I don't like to sit and watch Netflix. I don't I don't have Netflix I like like to be on my computer doing something if it's making it's either making content making youtube videos or making music. Do you know what I mean? So it's like it's I will just switch what I'm doing that day to like whatever I want to get done you know because like yeah I'm it's in time I'm very single do you think that you're now like your mom you know working from 7am to 7 pm yeah absolutely it's it's um and do you think it qualifies the same as as her work it's not the same because my mom my mom did a really highly specialized job I feel like it's not equal because I think my mom actually did quite important work and I'm just making stupid videos online and but I think my my job like as a disability worker like is it's the meaningful work but like I'm literally always working and I actually fucking love working.

SPEAKER_01 53:25

But that's how it should be right like you're it's not then that's when that's the point where you're actually you know doing what you love because you spend so much time um working and often people don't even call that work. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:41

Making music making content yeah yeah so just that question of do you feel overworked or yeah of course with a lot of musicians all the time I feel I'm like I'm like I I I told the first thing I said to you is I'm really tired. Yeah yeah you know and like I am tired um and I mean I'm really interested to see like how I can sustain this. I mean like the good thing is that like I've kind of cut out the financial aspect of it like I mix my own songs like I make my own videos and like if even if someone else is filming me filming me I'm just paying them an hourly rate to film me. So it's like it's not that much money do you know I mean um so like I've gotten to a point of self-sufficiency which means I work more. Yeah so the the money aspect is negated but then it's the time that I'm using now so like it's kind of interesting interesting to see how I can sustain this but like I mean that's the question in everyone's mind because like it's for a lot of musicians it's money right because you gotta get stuff mixed if you're working producers you gotta pay producers to like I um that's I don't I just make everything myself do you know what I mean um and once in a while like I'll buy I'll buy a beat or two but like even then it's like really with intent. Because like they're like I like I was like oh this beat's fire like I want this sound and it's like you know like um so when it comes to that point like I am honestly pretty okay with going with a route of creation that suits that point of time. Like if even if it means like music has to come down for a bit and like YouTube goes up I don't mind because that's I'm still making stuff. Yeah like whatever I do I still want to make stuff you know I mean so I think it's good to be flexible like that but what I realized as well is that like I mean like a lot of musicians just want to make music which is which I get and and so you should do what I mean um but like I realized that like especially after like I don't know I think especially after being in so many bands and like not having them work out like you know I realized that like I can't have all my eggs in one basket like that. I have to like look the main thing is I love creation.

SPEAKER_01 55:49

I love creating things like you know like color grading videos editing videos you know like filming people you know taking photos of people you know I like stimulation you know I mean I I love I love I love like doing stuff you know I mean so like as long as I gotta do something creative like I don't mind and I'm I'm okay to arrange like you know um I'm okay to arrange like my creative pursuits over there because either either way it's like a YouTube channel oh wow okay you know I mean we we can actually stop here yeah I hate I hate no it's like a good end kai call YouTube channel next time we go up where it's on YouTube.

Final Advice: Experiment, Be Yourself, Keep Going

SPEAKER_03 56:28

Subscribe to KaiCal66 on YouTube and follow me on Instagram kaiCal666 and TikTok thanks for taking the time no worries even though you're tired I'm also tired yeah no worries yeah yeah yeah we're both tired but I don't think it translated into the no no one no one will see like the deep eye bags and like how much homework you have to create I think okay I actually want to just ask you one last point.

SPEAKER_01 56:51

Yeah what was the best advice you ever got maybe as a music maker but uh it can be anything.

SPEAKER_03 56:58

I think what comes naturally to you to make what what creative form that comes naturally to you like as in like you're not spending any money of it you're not you don't have the peer producers you're not paying for mixing like whatever stuff that's easiest for you to mix to produce a single that's probably or like whatever you know that's probably the stuff you should be doing. Do you know what I mean? And you can always change that you can always change fate you can always learn you know like um delve into Ableton more but like I feel like a lot of creatives um we're all freaking it out do you know what I mean and like some people because I I uh used to be in um in a progressive metal band right it's weird you know and that's how I saw when I saw you first yeah when it was Chinese dream oh yeah you you were in a band yeah yeah yeah yeah no no that was just a garage rock band um but like um so I thought I was gonna be a progressive rock musician I thought like and I I liked yeah you know that was the the great future yeah I thought I you know and like I would spend hours on guitar like learning the other guitarists you know all time signature stuff and and like five people come to the shows do you know what I mean and like but and this thing that that genre didn't come naturally to me I just fell into I fell into those circles because they are my friends but just because they are my friends doesn't mean I mean I don't really hang out with them anymore too it's like they also weren't really my people because they were very um pedantic with their music and they were quite hard to work with because um everything had to be perfect. And then I started like after that like I started playing in like punk bands and like you know garage rock bands and stuff and like I love that simplicity. But obviously because I used to play in a prog band I still have lessons from that so like I you know like I have this attention to detail that a lot of like my punk bandmates didn't have do you know what I mean so if you hear my mixes they're actually very clean and punchy whereas if you hear like punk mixes I mean it's it's just like it's like you record into a cassette and you took an EQ and shaved off all the high end and all the low end and it's just like this mid-range you know and like we'll just find it's aesthetic itself but like uh yeah so like my life has been a journey of finding my my creative flow and I'm sure it's yours as well do you know I mean and uh it really like came to me during lockdown as well when I lost my band and I realized that like hey actually I really like making electronic music you know so like the the the the first part was like you know like what kind of genre of metal do I like and I realized I actually didn't really like playing metal even though I played metal for a lot of years and it became punk and then punk was like the opposite it was like I don't care it's a very freeing thing where it's like low effort and like so like through making so many low effort songs I just slowly got better at music because I was making so many songs there was shit that like eventually like kind of became alright you know I mean and then like during lockdown like I started learning like the DAW a lot and like I mean are you using Ableton what's your favorite I'm us I'm using Reaper right now Reaper but like yeah it makes sense you know I mean but like um so that's my advice like you'll be surprised that like maybe the thing you're just looking for is something that you don't really want to be but if it comes to you so naturally like maybe lean into it you know because but I also think that that's a big point because um you know we actually started talking about it at the beginning uh how you know it takes you actually have to experiment yeah so you can you have to go into the unknown to actually find your creative yeah what's your language right yeah you can't you you don't know that uh until you try it yeah and I think even I'm lately doing you know just trying out different things different sounds and yeah some of it is shit some of it it's good eventually I think it's gonna level up as long as you continue doing it.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:58

Yeah just just it's gonna be sort of I think think it filters out like friends.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:02

Yeah you know you have to make bad friends sometimes friends are the the perfect example yeah I think like that's it's a hard thing to do right because you everyone you know you see these people on the on the internet or like you see these bands artists doing these things and they you want to be like them but then you can't be like them because you didn't grow up like them you didn't whatever you know education they had maybe you know they had so much singing lessons as a kid like I got singing lessons like five years ago you know I mean before that I was just doing punk yelling you know and screaming and stuff and yeah and like I realized that like and what my singing teacher pulled out of me is like actually have a really pop edge to me that I I hate because I was around so many metal people. Yeah I was afraid to be fun. So now you see that I'm to have a good melody.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:48

Yeah like what what's wrong with a good pop melody or RB metody exactly and we especially I think um I've talked to you know because I grew up in a punk environment and it was also like oh you know songs can't be beautiful you know it needs to be like rah you know like pure energy which is great right but it's also interesting how only now recently have I been just like enjoying some great oh I love that shit. I'm like whoa I love that shit. When you wake up and you're just singing that song because it's a it's an insanely great well written song and it's and some most of the time the melodies are very simple.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:26

It's always they're very they're very simple they take one it's like three words and you stretch it over like three you know like you know it's always a hill yeah and um I think that's that was part of my um mature maturation process as a creative was like less is more there's that's a balance you know I mean like yeah that's a balance I think it comes down to what you want to do.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:48

Yeah you know like what's the ultimate goal do you want to be a superstar do you want to be content creator do you want to just get money out of it like in a sense that that that this is sustainable uh uh financial wise or you know you just want to do it for yourself you know I have so many friends there's so many ways music can exist yeah exactly they make uh they they're great music makers but they never they never finish a song or they're never you know what I mean so it's it's just a question of like what they actually want to do with some some people just enjoy the process I guess.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:19

Yeah I I mean I I come you know because I come from such a technical group of musicians um now released anything because it was never good enough so yeah and so when I was in the band and it was even worse. So I I wasted like 18 months of my life like writing the most complex music for it not to be released. So to rebel against it I just made shit punk music and that that that did way better. And you know what I'm not afraid to be shit like I'll be shit for as long as I need to be good. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:52

I don't care that's that's life you know I mean yeah I think the shittiest thing is the the thing that you've never released.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:57

Yeah yeah and like I remember like all my first jobs like I was I'm still terrible then I don't care I'll keep trying so don't be afraid to be shit and love yourself baby yeah peace out peace out man peace and love thank you hey this is a keywaiter and host of the real music talks podcast each month I sit down with musicians music producers and sound designers based in Melbourne to talk about the real challenges that we face in the industry whether it's breaking different markets, battling box syndrome, overcoming writers blocks or just navigating the cool world of social media. I brought these conversations as an artist myself and like most of us I also just try to figure it out