Departing, Returning, Traveling w/ Ex Ponto

Ivan Masic is a Melbourne-based artist working at the intersection of sound design, projection, and the moving image under the alias Ex Ponto. His practice explores the insoluble intimacy between music, light, and place through immersive, site-responsive works. I visited Ivan in his studio Twomb, to talk about capturing stories through sound, the freedom of instinctive music-making, and how his migrant journey shapes his creative practice. We touched on the importance of letting go of pressure, resisting fads, and creating work that is deeply tied to place and community.

To stay updated and get access to exclusive content, subscribe to my monthly newsletter. You can also connect with me on Instagram for more updates.

Transcript

Intro

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Thanks for having me today, Ivan Exponto.

unknown 0:04

You're welcome.

SPEAKER_00 0:05

I'm really happy because okay, I actually will try to have a chronological order because I get excited. Hey, this is Vutiai Kiva, creator and host of Serial Music Talks podcast. Each month I sit down with musicians, music producers, and sound designers based in Melbourne to talk about the real challenges we face in the industry, whether it's breaking into new markets, battling imposter syndrome, overcoming writers' blocks, or just navigating the cruel world of social media. I approach these conversations as an artist myself, and like most of us, I'm also just trying to figure it all out on the go. A new episode drops every last Tuesday of the month. So if you want to stay connected, you can subscribe to my newsletter via Substack. Just find the link somewhere below. It's Monday today, Monday after the grand final. And my question is are you working today as people who have nine to five jobs, or is that a full-time thing that you do?

SPEAKER_02 1:10

Good question. Um it was my birthday yesterday, so I'm trying to take it a little bit easier today, not not work too hard, but um I run a small public art company called Little Projector Company, so I'm the general manager um and yeah, basically help run the operations and do everything from A B technician work to projection mapping to art creation. So that's how I spend most of my time. Um and that does include some sound design and music elements as well. Um so yeah, I've just been working on a few projects this morning and and um yeah, probably call it a day soon after this interview.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

But well, yeah, I I guess it it's still I would still say that it counts as something that you've um created yourself, you know, like from your practice, because I know that you've been well from all the research that I've done, I really felt like visuals and music always went together for you. Most of the projects are multidisciplinary.

SPEAKER_02 2:07

Usually, yeah. Um I studied multimedia when it was a thing at university, so yeah, I had an honours degree in multimedia and and really liked that kind of, you know, call it the you know, the the the deep sea of music light and the moving image, you know, it's like and then and I I felt they were all kind of intertwined and um it's just something I've sort of carried on with and when I met um Lee, who's my current business partner, he'd been doing similar work, so then we kind of joined forces and um yeah, a little project a company I was born.

unknown 2:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:37

Uh but I also saw um so did you do your honours at Monash?

SPEAKER_01 2:42

I did, yeah.

Surveillance Film + Discovering Cymatics

SPEAKER_00 2:42

I saw I saw some of your projects from I wanted to ask you about because currently what I'm exploring with Jiva is um our CCTV cameras and just like surveillance. And then I saw your work Exit Everywhere, um, which was an interesting take on the surveillance um mechanisms.

SPEAKER_02 3:02

Yeah, I was definitely exploring that world of surveillance paranoia through that film. Um you know, it's going back almost maybe 20 years ago. Um so yeah, when I when I finished my multimedia degree, I was, you know, kind of focused on art-based projects where there are other students that were doing more websites, you know. So then I was like, oh, maybe I need to do fine art. So then I kind of switched and and did uh honours in in fine art at Monash and then sort of got into cymatics really, um, which is what where it kind of really triggered it and uh kind of study of wave phenomena and be able to see um images, you know, through sound and and vibration. Um that's when I got really excited about the potential for for bringing those two worlds together. And um I still run workshops in cymatics.

SPEAKER_00 3:43

Oh okay, so you're still doing it because I saw that a lot of your projections are based on cymatics.

SPEAKER_02 3:49

Yeah, some are, some aren't. You know, I've worked with um Baba Noir a fair bit, the um Turkish um album DJ, and that often often I use, you know, like bits from films and just kind of edit live. Um but yeah, I do still use quite a lot of cybernetics in my video.

SPEAKER_00 4:05

So it seems like you know, even as soon as I s walked into the studio, you know, there's lots of equipment, but at the same time there's a lot of instruments, and you said that you're self-taught. So I am one I am very curious, and from all the work that I've seen, it seems like it's very it is very multimedia. So it but how were you always like this? Were you always exploring things? How did you come about learning a new instrument or yeah, so a new media?

SPEAKER_02 4:36

I started out on guitar, so that was my f my first thing when I was, you know, a a teenager. Um and oddly enough, you know, I grew up listening to only electronic music in Melbourne, you know, I was just like into acid and techno and German trans.

SPEAKER_00 4:51

So that was before the guitar.

SPEAKER_02 4:52

That was before the guitar.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

Oh, okay, okay, because I was like, what?

SPEAKER_02 4:54

Yeah, so then um then I sort of you know discovered punk and folk, and then I was yeah, so it wasn't until probably first year uni, you know, nine nineteen that I actually picked up the guitar, 18 or 19, um, and just started um kind of tick teaching myself, looking up tablature and working out how to read tablature and then just um learning songs. Um and then yeah, I met one of my lecturers at uni, um, my lecturer in sound, Jerome, who was like, oh, you know, we should have a jam sometime, and he was a drummer, and we got together and and yeah, just that's kind of how it started. I started playing guitar with Jerome, and then we had a few other people join and formed this improvisation collective called Council of Elders, and yeah, proceeded to jam every week for 10 years, and I recorded everything during that 10 years and you know, um released about 30 albums over that time.

SPEAKER_00 5:45

Whoa!

SPEAKER_02 5:45

Uh yeah, it's it's more just yeah, and then you know, from then I'll pick up the drums and the bass and then sax and just just spending time with the instrument. Um yeah, and I I read a Captain B Fight um biography back then, and he was talking about that kind of aleatoric approach that he uses where you know he'll pick up an instrument for the first time and just play and capture that and then learn to play that. And I really, really that really resonated with me. It was just like that kind of really honest, um primitive, or lack of a better word, um, instinctive playing. Um I find where the magic is, you know?

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Yeah, well, I recently just watched um a quick, like a short interview with Tyler, the creator. And I was I actually recently only discovered him and managed to get into his concert in Melbourne, which was really great. But then, you know, I would hear all these uh harmonies and like notes, and I would be like, oh, this must be, you know, he must be educated, you know, all the soul. Uh you know, I don't even know, like, but it sounds like jazz, right? And then I was uh listening to his uh interview and he's like, oh no, you know, he literally just picks up an instrument and just explores it. Um which is great to hear because I don't have any education, and obviously you don't, but I've listened to like this entire morning and over the weekend, I was listening to all of his stuff on Sound SoundCloud. There's so much material, and now it makes sense that it's because it's also a lot of people are featured, or I I can see that you're everywhere. You've been quite active in the scene.

SPEAKER_02 7:53

Yeah, it's it's a I guess it's an obsession that's you know I've had from a very young age, and you know, kind of I've managed a record store for 10 years, and music's always been like the a big thing, you know.

Music as Self-Care vs “Full-Time Artist”

SPEAKER_00 8:03

So But so it seems like it is really full-time. This is this is what you do.

Bosnia to Melbourne: Migration Story & Identity

SPEAKER_02 8:07

Like um I still it's still very much a hobby, you know. It's like it's I don't earn a lot of money from music, you know. Like I the record store business, you know, I've I've moved away from and it's not something I've been a part of for nearly 10 years now. Um but yeah, I mean I guess that the public art realm is is my my my main um work, but yeah, music has always just been out of necessity, you know, it's almost like um yeah, self-care or something like where I just need to play music to feel, you know, normal.

SPEAKER_00 8:40

Oh, okay. So it's like um because I wanted to ask you about your, you know, like where you come from and like your ancestry uh because actually that's how I met you first time over through our mutual friend Phil. Hi Phil. I think I'm sure that Phil will listen to this episode. Um, but then I saw you live, we'll get back to that. Uh but you're originally from Bosna, right?

SPEAKER_02 9:09

Yeah, I was born in um in Fortra in in Bosna um to Serbian parents, and um yeah, late 80s we decided to migrate to Melbourne. Um my auntie and uncle um and their family, like dad's sister, had been living in Melbourne since the late 60s. So um I think when um you know people kind of felt like there was a war brewing. Um and where we we lived in Gottosder, but I was born in Foltron where we lived was um yeah, um absolute hellfire. After we left, we sort of managed to get out of there um, you know, a couple of years before the war. Um so we're very lucky in that in that regard. Um but yeah, I've been in Melbourne my most of my most of my life since then, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

And I first I first saw you now that we're talking about instruments, I saw you at the Russian House. Your your live performance I've seen at the Russian House, and then I remember um uh you started the show by playing Usle. And I was like, whoa. I actually wasn't expecting that. Uh I wasn't, you know, I didn't know much about your stuff uh beforehand, and I like that, you know, to be surprised. Um so immediately I thought, okay, so it seems like you know, ancestry plays a good big role in your um inspiration in your music. Is that is that true?

SPEAKER_02 10:32

Yeah, my my dad's brother, my uncle Petka's a master gusla player, so um that's kind of the reason I got into it. Um yeah, so when I was there in 2016, um I bought myself a gusler um from a gusla maker in Novi Sad um in Serbia, and my uncle actually lives in Serbia. He did the um the unthinkable thing that you know for Serbian men to to join his wife's family after getting married, because you know it's usually the woman that goes to the man's and he was like, nah, I'm gonna go to to to live with um my wife. So he migrated from Bosnia to Serbia and has um spent his life there and he's still there now in um yeah in southern Serbia near Vlad Srinha.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

I don't know how if I'm gonna be able to frame this question properly, but I feel like I actually, you know, I've seen I've been going through your work and the first thing that I've noticed, well, okay, so apart a fra apart from Gusle, I also heard listened to a lot of your sound design, and I even heard, you know, doing mixes and having like haus tour and a lot of like exubans in your mixes, a lot of um Bosnian language uh there, and then that that was the first thing. But then I also saw that you do a lot of site-specific things, and then I wondered if that doesn't make sense to have a question that is this a way for you to explore your sense of belonging? I don't know. Maybe this is me as a migrant looking at your work, but I feel like your your all your art is sort of exploring grounding sense of belonging, and I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 12:08

That's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 12:09

Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 12:10

Interesting you pick up on that, because um it does feel that way, you know. Um I I feel like I'm always searching for some kind of belong your identity, and and you know, through the music, it just seems like a natural natural way to do that. Um but with the site-specific work, that's also you know very much the the public artwork that I do. It's often in response to to a place and and and space. Um so yeah, I I really love responding to a story as well or um or to a field recording and like not just you know just pulling notes from the air, but actually responding to something. So um my my current release that's that's coming out on um uh DJ L. Gray's label uh Best Effort Music. Um uh he's got a series called Interior Music, so it's a long form piece um uh that I made for an exhibition for Nelbourne Design Week, um which celebrated uh native grasslands. Um so yeah, grasslands um I'm not sure whether you're aware, but they're very much endangered in Australia. There's less than 0.1% remaining, um, and there's such an important ecosystem on a number of levels. Um I've been working on a feature documentary about this as well, which is another part of my work.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

Um a hobby, you mean? Yeah, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_02 13:29

But yeah, I'm really excited about that release because um yeah, I literally went out to um a cemetery out in the Victorian Volcanic Plain, uh Bannockburn Cemetery, where there's uh one of the very few remnant grasslands remaining and did a field recording um off um of the grassland and and everything, you know, the the bird life and the insects that were there and then composed the music in response to that to that uh sounds that I was hearing. So um and because it was for an exhibition, it was going to be played on a loop um for the uh a week or ten days straight. I kind of designed it to be listened to at a low low volume because I kind of um yeah didn't want the staff or you know people just to get bored of listening to this thing. So I was like really, you know, I didn't want it to be too busy and so it's quite spacious. For how long is the It's about a 20 20 minute piece, yeah. Um I'm not sure when when it's released, but um it should be pretty soon.

unknown 14:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:19

Yeah, I've I've just listened to some of the is it called Often?

SPEAKER_02 14:24

Uh yeah, the Inakori record, yes.

SPEAKER_00 14:26

Uh I've listened to it this entire morning.

SPEAKER_02 14:28

Oh, cool.

SPEAKER_00 14:29

Um I really enjoyed it. Oh thanks. Uh I'm not I I think that I think that it and again this is not just because you're my guest today. I really thought this morning while I was listening to it, I was like, hmm, I think I'm starting to like uh this type of sound design more. I've never actually been listening to because I I do feel like it's more sound design piece. Yeah, for sure. In like a yeah, like conceptual piece rather than you know, just music, whatever.

SPEAKER_02 15:03

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, that was very much a lockdown project. My friend Joe, um, whose voice you hear on the recording and his son Augie gave me the recording and said, Oh, can you do something with this sonically? And um, I listened to it a few times and it was just like, yeah, I could hear it, yeah, I could hear the soundtrack straight away. You know, I didn't have to, you know, it came out really naturally. I just kind of yeah, got it through the studio. I probably spent a day or two recording and it just kind of came together, yeah. Um there was some I'd I'd spent quite a lot of time at that place once again, so yeah, had field recordings from that site, um, where the snake incident happened in the um in the Upways. Um it's an incredible site in Beach Forest. It's called um the Project's Quarry, if you want to have a look at it.

SPEAKER_00 15:46

But um yeah, I saw I saw something on your on your sound cloud, but yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:50

So there's there's always interesting stuff going out there, and and like Joe and his team have been rehabilitating the site. It's an old quarry um which you know um has been going through a process of rehabilitation for about 10 years. And um Yeah, I just spent spent quite a lot of time documenting projects and field recording there. Um and in the recording you can actually hear like my partner Sarah, you know, like we we stayed out there when I and you know some of the percussion is her like cutting vegetables in the background, you know. It's just like um and then I just kind of loop loop sections and well, but how do you go about those um field recordings?

SPEAKER_00 16:23

Like, do you I maybe maybe you can just guide me through the process of do you okay, so in this case you have a particular place where you go to because it's real related to the project, do you start to first listen and experience or do you start immediately recording and then maybe trying to paint a picture?

SPEAKER_02 16:39

Usually yeah, I will I will spend time at a place first and then think about it and and and I find you know with with you know dawn course, you know, dawn is always my my favourite time, you know, when everything's working out. Um so yeah, that's that's kind of like my go-to really. But um I'd already because I'd already spent quite a bit of time at the quarry before Joe gave me the recording, I'd I'd had all quite a few of these recordings from that time um that I spent there.

SPEAKER_00 17:06

So Wow, I really loved the design. I think uh it really was an inspiration to me.

SPEAKER_02 17:11

Oh, thank you. Yeah. Um and I was kind of lucky enough because yeah, I sent it to my friend Vladimir, who released it on his label Off of Music, and without that intention, but he was just like, What are you doing with this? And I, you know, I'd plan on doing a private press. I I did do a private press just with Joe. We did like 10 copies, and then he was like, Oh, I'm gonna release this. So then you had a couple of other tracks that went on the other side and that I recorded around that time.

SPEAKER_00 17:33

Okay, well, uh so many questions that I have. Uh just trying to stay on track. Uh I guess the first thing that I wanted to ask you, continuing on the Goosele. So did you feel so how how connected are you actually with your hometown? How often do you go?

SPEAKER_02 17:52

Like I guess your family, like I guess since about um so 2004 was the first time that I went back. Um and then there was a period that I didn't go, but I've been just sort of trying to go every one or two years since, you know, about 2015, 2017 for the last 10 years, I've been quite a few times. And um, yeah, I'll spend a bit of time with my family, and I spent quite a bit of time in Belgrade where I've also got family and lots of friends.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 18:16

And then try to, you know, visit a new part of the Balkans every time. So, you know, this year we went to um a couple of places in Montenegro that we hadn't been to, and you know, in the past we've driven around Croatia and Bosnia and Slovenia, so we yeah, okay. Yet to go to Macedonia.

SPEAKER_00 18:30

Because it it seems like you you left Bosna quite young, yet at the same time, if I go on your page, it seems like you have a really strong connection, uh like at least on the music scene level, like you know, releasing music uh with people over there. I saw that you've uh played with Lalic, who is also another Melbourne-based uh Serbian musician here. Um I saw that you had a like impromptu performance at um 2044. So, you know, it actually seems like you've had an established, you know, name there and then you moved to Melbourne, but it feels like it's another way around. You know, it's not that easy to break. It's like far away, and I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 19:14

Yeah, I guess I just really enjoy spending time in the Vulcans and you know, it feels like a part of myself, you know. It's just as you know, it's a very different uh world, you know, where living and and expressing ourselves and food and you know, it's like it's just very different to to hear. So um yeah, I I think I would just continue going back as much as I can. Um yeah, hopefully sp spend longer periods of time. I think 2016 was probably the longest I spent um it was about three months um just in Serbia and um worked on a festival in Novi Sad, um just doing some video documentation. Okay um it was the the art and politics of improvise of improvisation was a festival, so it was just like right down my alley. It was um run by Chris Cutler from a band called Hi uh Henry Cow. And there's yeah, a whole bunch of experimental musicians from around Europe um that kind of gathered um uh in Novi Sad and just uh yeah spoke about the art and politics of improvisation for two or three days.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

Sounds like a great festival.

SPEAKER_02 20:17

Yeah, it was uh it was really, really great. And um yeah, I felt really lucky to be there at that time and and be given the opportunity to document it for the for the team. Um media center was the place that held it.

SPEAKER_00 20:30

It definitely, you know, not just with Gusle, but the more I listen to your the more I see your work, the more more it's quite visible how your identity is a bit, you know, it's it's fractured, or at least but not not in a bad way, it's just like here and there. But it's really interesting to see how you manage to it it it still feels very cohesive, that's what I want to say. Oh, great. You know, like I know it's hard to maintain that uh connection. You know, you want to invest in energy over there and you feel the need, it's not like you can say no. I don't know if you feel the same.

SPEAKER_02 21:04

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 21:05

But then at the same time, this is where you live.

SPEAKER_02 21:06

That's it, yeah. So I'm I'm always kind of telling us like, oh, because I I've I've been working on another solo record like uh for a couple of years now that I've just finished, and then um I had it mixed and mastered in in Belgrade by a guy called um Godon um from the band Tapan. Um he's got a studio there, La Plant is his um is his business. And um, yeah, so I was just like, oh, do I get it mixed in Australia? But I really love Godon's sound and what he what he does, so I kind of just trusted him with it and um he basically just made it sound how I imagined it could, you know. So um and that's finished and it's yeah, it's called Odla's luck, you know, culture. Um uh it's kind of a conceptual album um of about yeah, sort of returning, um, sort of leaving, departing, traveling, and then kind of returning to this place um which might be, you know, referred to as home, but um yeah, it's it's it's got kind of a circular sort of narrative through it. Um but yeah, yet to be released. I'm just um I've just sent it to to Vladimir to see what he thinks. But um yeah, I might be shopping around for a label to release it. Ooh.

SPEAKER_00 22:09

I can't wait. I was about to ask you like what is next, you know, like what's what's um do you do you have at least like a idea when would you release it?

SPEAKER_02 22:18

I think well it's it's done. I've um my friend Rick um is working on the artwork at the moment. Um and my partner Sarah's a photographer, so she's having an exhibition next year also called Odlazak, um, because she's been kind of documenting my journey of of returning back for a few years now. So it's gonna be photographs from that, and that's for like November next year. Um so yeah, I don't know, it'd be sometimes.

unknown 22:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:42

I look forward to that. I feel like um you might resonate with me. Do you think there's anything uh different about this apart from Um I mean there's there's Gusla on it again.

SPEAKER_02 22:52

Um probably yeah. Uh yeah, it's it's hard to it's hard to uh it's got it feels like you know it's probably my my my third kind of solo album and it it feels somewhere in between the first two. I mean this um it's probably more you know more song based um than the last one.

SPEAKER_00 23:08

Like you're singing on one track. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 23:11

Um so you know, um I don't yeah, I don't I don't that's okay. Yeah, really hard to talk about my own my own music in it.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

Well that's why you're using music.

SPEAKER_02 23:20

Yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

Rather than some other f medium. Well, you are doing many mediums.

SPEAKER_02 23:25

But I mean I guess you know, some of the influence, you know, um it's ended up being a lot more guitar-y than I expected. Like we listen back to it, and there's quite a lot of guitar in it. So, you know, I really love like the Daruti column and some sort of 80s sort of guitar, guitar music, and then you know, there's some dub elements. Um and then, you know, like kraut rock has always been a bit.

SPEAKER_00 23:43

Yeah, actually when I first uh heard you play, apart from the boosle, I immediately felt like kraut rock. I grew up listening to a lot of kraut rock, and it was just and I feel like at in the Balkans it was really strong. I don't know how it was, you know, I can't say how it was, you know, uh growing up here and what was the music that was popular, but for me there in Croatia it was like Krautrock was really big. Um and yeah, you just like literally transported me there. I was like, whoa. It was that's why, you know, for me it was really interesting to see how you you're well-established Melbourne musicians, yes, yet you have a really strong influence of it's like you actually grew up there. I don't know. Like I don't want to focus on that as much, but it's just really interesting because of a lot of people who I've met who migrated here very young, like that it was it wasn't as easy to f you know find that grounding back home. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. Uh yeah, I wanted to ask you actually was there is there an artist like who really inspired you or like Yeah, um absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 24:53

Um Mita Subotic, you know, like I'm not sure whether you know him.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

I've I a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 24:58

Yeah, um went under the name Rex Illusivi, like King of Illusions, um and Sulba as well, and um yeah, just recorded a really wide range of interesting sonic, you know, experimental music. He's a he's a classically trained pianist, um, but yeah, then got into synths and he he won a UNESCO award for uh his second album uh in the moon cage, which um had lots of kind of um folk music mixed in with electronics and on the back of that moved to Brazil um uh to record and and continue his music career and fell in love with Sao Paulo and ended up there for the last 10 years of his life until tragically his studio caught on fire and he ended up passing of smoke inhalation really tragically. And um, but yeah, it was left behind a an incredible legacy and yeah, such a like on a on a world scale unique kind of sound, you know. And um, yeah, I would say he would definitely be one of my biggest inspirations uh for continuing to make music, you know.

SPEAKER_00 25:59

Wow, okay. Um yeah, another thing I I now we're gonna go back to to the first question about, you know, is this your full-time job? Um I guess you call this a hobby. I guess I understand because you don't wanna if it's work then it's it it sort of destroys the the the even the the beauty of it in a way.

SPEAKER_02 26:21

I think that's the fear, you know. Yeah I it's like music's so special like it, but if it became, you know, because I have had it like a you know a weekly DJ gig um where I'm just like every week playing records and even that started becoming a bit like oh you know it that's not it's not that fun anymore. So I was like I walked away from that. So it's like uh if making music was, you know, and performing was my full time gig, I feel like I would probably just um not do it.

SPEAKER_00 27:51

But at the same time, I feel like you have so many outlets, like you could like it's of course, I'm not saying that you should call yourself like an artist full-time. It's it's completely up to you. I'm just thinking that even the public art, you know, the projectionist's work is it's all you know in the art industry. It is, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:10

I guess you know, I guess I'm I am a full-time artist and we we call Little Project Company an artist-run organization. So, you know, whilst there is a lot of you know business management and you know technical stuff, um, you know, we are creating a lot art a lot of the time. Um so uh yeah, in terms of making records and performing music live, I think it's definitely, you know, a late night um uh task for me usually, you know.

SPEAKER_00 28:36

But do you do you so I well I guess obviously you don't you don't master your old music, but do you mix how m how much of the process Because I also saw that you collaborate a lot. So I'm just curious how much of the process do you um share with other people?

SPEAKER_02 28:53

Yeah, so th this is the first time I've had somebody else mix my music. Yeah, so my my first two records I've mixed myself and had them mastered. Um yeah, I I feel like I felt like it was time to, you know, reach out. I just um and just to hear somebody else's take on it. And I think now that I've done it once, it's probably something I'll continue to do is I'll get mixes into shape to a a level where you know roughly this is where I want them, and then I just um yeah, what what got on done with Olizar, I think is just yeah, really whiffed it um to a new level that I how many songs are there? Um there's seven, seven tracks in total. It's about forty minutes, it's under forty minutes, yeah.

No Typical Day: Touring Work, Studio Time & Night Projects

SPEAKER_00 29:32

I'm really interested to hear that. Maybe you you'll play me a once we press stop on the recording. Um and what is um I'm always this is something that I always ask everyone, like what does your typical day look like in the store? Oh, like what a typical day. This is Monday.

SPEAKER_02 29:51

Yeah. There is no typical day in my world. Yeah, it's like it's so varied. Um, you know, for example, you know, last week, you know, I was in Horsham for three days um working on a film to be um of a of a book. So yeah, converting a book into a film um that's gonna be shown at the um Natty Fringe Festival um this this year. Um and then I have days where I'm in the show.

SPEAKER_00 30:19

So what did what was your role? Sorry.

SPEAKER_02 30:20

Well So yeah, um projection designer and and tech um and editor, so um yeah, um it varies, you know. Some days I'm just in in my studio. I have a studio at Ballin Bullin Place in Brunswick. Um uh so yeah, often I'll be there editing or doing ad admin. Um but then yeah, a lot of my work is at night. Um so yeah, we have um projectors for you know, obviously projections after dark.

Current Project: Projections of a Current Future

SPEAKER_00 30:46

So Yeah, true.

SPEAKER_02 30:47

Um yeah, we're working on pretty amazing um project this week called Projections of a Current Future, which we've been working on for a while. Um with a few different uh artists. Um it's led by Auntie Carolyn Briggs um and Amina Briggs, um, and it's um retracing the the story of the eels through um through projection art. Um there's a few different sites that we're exploring around town through projections, so we'll be installing a few projectors this way you can running a tour.

SPEAKER_00 31:16

So is the process um like you know they reach out to you to also not just to I guess run technically the projections but also to pretty much be the projectionist to design the projections?

SPEAKER_02 31:31

Oh yeah, yeah, we're often in that sort of projection design space. Um we're lucky enough to have Admina Briggs working on this one, another um animator, uh Sean Healy, that we work with quite a lot. Um and then we'll bring our sort of tech expertise to it. Um you know sometimes we commission ourselves to create an artwork for a specific site through festivals and different different councils. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:54

Yeah, I only I haven't experienced any of your uh site-specific works. I've seen them online. I've seen you doing some projections on live performances, like with um There was a Baba Noir. Uh but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:08

Yeah, Type Pan Tiger Killers was one of my favorite kind of live VJ gigs that I used to do regularly with um Blake Oli Olsen and his band trio. Um it was like really high high-energy live shows, and I'm kind of using a lot of the Cymatics work, and um yeah, they were like And were you uh uh were you doing it impromptu or like improvising how much Yeah well I mean a lot of their live sets were improvised, so I would just kind of improvise the visuals with what I was hearing. I would have, you know, uh um a catalogue of of Cymatics.

SPEAKER_00 32:37

Okay, so you would record the Cymatics. Okay, so so that was the process.

SPEAKER_02 32:41

That's it, yeah. Um but you know, sometimes I'll do it live where I'll have a live feed, you know, stereo output going into my Symatic speaker and then macro lens and then and then do that live.

Social Media Pressure vs Letting the Work Go

SPEAKER_00 32:53

Okay. Wow, I want to see that uh live again. Um yeah, I also wanted to ask you, do you um I don't know, I'm just thinking, you know, about the things you are in the music industry, maybe it doesn't seem well, at least this is my reading from you know your Instagram and from your SoundCloud and whatnot. It doesn't it seems like you're chilled, you're not very much into like oh what's happening with the music industry, gamifying everything, social media, blah blah. But I still, you know, you never know. Do you feel pressured by how things are changing in? Do you feel like it's changing things? Not really.

SPEAKER_02 33:29

Music's like it's always been so kind of personal for me. It's just about the creating, you know. And um once I've made something, then it's like I just let it let it go. Let it go, that's it.

SPEAKER_00 33:40

You don't have a problem with letting go? You don't have a problem with finishing?

SPEAKER_02 33:43

No. I mean, well I do, yeah. Like this one last album definitely took way longer than it should have, you know.

SPEAKER_00 33:48

Um what is that? Well, how long?

SPEAKER_02 33:51

I probably what what year is it?

SPEAKER_00 33:54

It's 2025. It's uh September September.

SPEAKER_02 33:56

So it's probably like three or four years in the making, you know? Uh okay. Yeah. Um and I feel like it was probably almost done a year ago, and then I just kind of just like was like, oh maybe it's not there, and then maybe tweaked a little bit and eventually I yeah, I I saw God on when I was in Belgrade recently. I was like, I'm gonna send you the album to and then he just kind of just finished it and it's like, alright, it's done now.

SPEAKER_00 34:16

Okay. Yeah, it makes sense. Um well it's good that you're not pressured by it. Like you don't um it sort of doesn't interrupt your process.

SPEAKER_02 34:25

Not really, yeah. It's all I mean it's it's about the ritual, isn't it? Of of creating and and performing. Uh you know, I feel like uh yeah, in your music as well, it's probably a bit like that too, right?

SPEAKER_00 34:35

It is like I'm I'm trying to yeah. Um it's like I just can't not do the ritual and I can't just sit down and express what I'm thinking. Um but I do sometimes get into that rebel t rabbit hole of like going online and then, you know, just seeing that, you know, maybe I should be pushing more. I don't know, like I don't know. I just sometimes do get caught into oh, maybe I should push for more, but then at the same time I'm like I just wanna create music or whatever else. Yeah, yeah. Um and I think it's just yeah, just a confusing field for me sometimes. I don't know. Especially because I I feel like I still have to build uh my connections. And I think that's the the guilt.

SPEAKER_02 35:30

Yeah. I mean I'm I'm constantly going out, seeing music and constantly listening, and it's just like naturally making connections, you know, without really looking to, you know. And I find that's always the the best way to do it.

Deadlines vs Freedom

SPEAKER_00 35:42

It is. I I I feel like even just through having these conversations, I've made so much you know, so many good connections, like connections that last, connections that are well established, or even, you know, I don't know, collaborations. So I don't think that you have to push for social media, but I don't know. Depends on what do you want to get out of it. And um, but um what I wanted to say is do you ever feel like you because uh like only rec so I like the reason why I would ask this question is like I've been doing music for a long time and then only recently, maybe like three or four years, I started doing um multimedia stuff. Um and it's great, but it also at moments feels a bit overwhelming in a sense that like okay, so at the same time you have want to have things commissioned and worked on them because you like that, but also it brings in some money, right? But um do you have a problem with uh you know controlling the tension between okay, so this is something that you're doing for other people, or this is the music that you really want to do and like something that you want to say? Uh how do you manage that with time?

SPEAKER_02 36:56

I don't know. Yeah, like that's a good question. Um so like I guess, you know, um with my solo music, there's no pressure because it's you know, I I call the shots and you know, you know, like I can just take my time and no one's gonna force me to release anything or you know put pressure on me to like do anything. So like that can just be slow and organic. But um, and then for the public art stuff, it's usually you know on a deadline and and um you know I'm I'm working uh yeah to a timeline, I guess. Yeah, so that's uh there's such different worlds. Um so yeah, does that answer your question?

SPEAKER_00 37:33

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I guess it's just uh it's it's it's interesting because I feel like I'm my own worst boss. Like when it comes to my stuff, I'm like, oh, you know, you gotta release it right now, you gotta release it right now, or whatever, you gotta do this right now.

SPEAKER_02 37:47

Yeah. Um I feel like I'm I'm never trying to keep up with any fads or anything, so it's like it's not like you know, I'm in a rush to get something out, so it's like you know, in with whatever's going on. I'm just like making whatever I feel like making, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:00

True, true. But how do you do you think that you're now already established enough that like do you feel like you have to hustle a lot?

SPEAKER_02 38:08

Or like you know, for for not really, you know, like I play probably a handful of shows a year and that's enough for me, you know. Like it um uh yeah, like I said, it's not it's not my job, so it's like it's literally just but even for your job, like do you have to do you feel like um Yeah, we're in a in a place where you know we've been doing it for over ten years now and we just get lots of work coming through. And there's um I guess the way we approach projection-based public art is quite unique, and um I don't think there's any other companies that do what we do the way we do. You know, there's like center projection art that you know are great, but once again it's a very different um business model. Um but yeah, we work with communities a lot, run lots of workshops. We love like just really yeah, um responding to to place, you know, and and capturing stories, um working with First Nations quite a lot the last few years. Um project called the Dreaming Project, um, led by a uh broader artist called Dylan Singh that we've been collaborating with quite a lot. Um and yeah, like you know, this this country has so many stories to tell. Um, and you know, I think don't think we'll ever run out of work.

Festival of Fungi & Mushroom Culture

SPEAKER_00 39:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I've noticed that in your portfolio that there's like a lot of um that's why I would really like to experience them.

SPEAKER_02 39:27

Um if you can come to the Festival of Fungi. We've been we it's uh yeah, we work on a fungi festival out in Europa every two years, um, which we've we've done three times now for the last six years. Um unfortunately have to wait till the year after next um because we did it this year, but um we work with a mycologist called Alison Pullio, um who's absolutely incredible um yeah, uh uh fungi expert and photographer and artists. Um and then yeah, we we got there and and we we run workshops with the schools responding to fungi. So we do creative workshops, um animation, um, sound creation, um, performance, and then we capture all of this um in the workshops and and project it out onto um an old hotel at Neuroa for one night. Um When is that? Like uh it's usually in autumn. So um it'll be next one will be in 2027, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:20

Okay, you got me there because I I go and like I pick mushrooms.

SPEAKER_01 40:25

Cool.

SPEAKER_00 40:25

Uh that's I'm not uh well maybe yeah, I'm I I I sort of think that I'm not a nature person. Um but then mushroom picking is like I can just do that every day, all day. It's just something about the exploration. I don't know. Uh I started doing it two years ago and yeah, I just now do it every every year.

SPEAKER_02 40:46

Like um it's it's st still such a mystery, you know, there's still so much you know to learn about.

SPEAKER_00 40:52

True. Oh, okay, I'll definitely come to that. Um yeah, so uh what I also wanted to ask um is um just a little bit about your studio. Yeah. And just just to like um because one of the things I wanna, you know, tell our listeners, whoever is listening, um, about the space we're at right now. And you're a really good person to now do that as an ex expert in in site specific.

SPEAKER_02 41:20

It's the um it's the third iteration of my studio. So my first one was called The Womb. Um was probably three or four times this size, and it had a you know, uh a piano and a Hammond organ. It was a lot bigger, and but it was out in the out in the burbs, it was a fair way out. And um, yeah, it I mean it had a lot of special times, recorded a lot of music in there. Um, and then the second one was not far from here, it was kind of similar size, it was called The Tomb.

SPEAKER_01 41:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 41:47

As you can as you can see, I've got a bit of an obsession with Birth Death and actually released an album called Birth Death with um uh another band I played with called Wunderlust. Um uh and then this one is called The Twoom, you know, it's the it's the combination of the two, and hopefully it's you know this is it, you know. Um But yeah, behind you um we're looking at a painting um made at the Forum Theatre by a German band called Faust um when they toured um I can't remember what year it was, it would say at least 10 or 15 years ago. So they did that live on stage at the forum, and I I stuck around and and bought it off and then carried it all the way down. How much did you pay for it? Uh I think it was$200.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

Okay, wow.

SPEAKER_02 42:28

Um so yeah, carried it down Flenders Street and down to South Bangton, left it at a friend's house and then picked it up the next day because I didn't have my vehicle with me. Um, yeah. My village shoes. Um I've usually got my gusto in there, but I was playing inside.

SPEAKER_00 42:43

Yeah, I saw them.

SPEAKER_02 42:44

I actually saw them in another and then yeah, all this um uh the soundproofing I actually got not long ago from um Nick DJ L Grey, who runs an incredible yoga slash listening studio in Brunswick called Tender. Um they do like deep listening sessions.

SPEAKER_00 43:02

They're just putting up an event with uh Zoltan and um Genevieve or Genevieve, I don't know. I just saw it this morning. Yeah, deep listening, and I was like, oh I if I can make it, I'll go.

SPEAKER_02 43:13

Yeah, yeah, so it was really great space. So I got those off him, he was he was getting rid of them. Um and then you can see the ivy that's going into the building. Yeah, you have Android Is that a wine leaf? No, it's but it's an ivy that's going through.

SPEAKER_00 43:26

Ivy, yes. Okay, so we have some plans going through the building.

SPEAKER_02 43:31

A book that I pull out occasionally called Mixing with Your Mind. Um what is that? It's uh it's kind of a uh a a book about mixing and recording music, just you know, kind of simple tips about um mic placement and techniques.

SPEAKER_00 43:46

I will write that down. Mixing with your mind.

SPEAKER_02 43:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:50

There's a the sax.

SPEAKER_02 43:52

Sax, my yeah, 808 and 303 and um guitar bass.

SPEAKER_00 43:57

Yes, many lots. It's very cozy. You have a lot of like Like um bom I don't know, jam. I don't know how to categorize drums. Oh really? Okay. I can see that you have the same sound card that I am, SSL 360.

SPEAKER_02 44:14

Yeah, that one in the Fireface 800. Yeah, I kind of use that one for live enough in this one for I find that the praise in the Fireface a little bit nicer.

SPEAKER_00 44:21

Really? Uh I was like, I just bought it maybe like a few months ago, SSL 360, and it's really good for vocals. And I I I pretty much when I'm like uh this is another question. Like when I start doing music, I start with vocals, but I guess just because I'm most comfortable, and then I sometimes, you know, play the melody that I've sang, and that's how I build the song. Um how do you start? Is there a particular instrument?

SPEAKER_02 44:47

It's really different every time. Um I mean the stuff I make at the moment has like 12 layers of percussion, um, and that's it, you know. Um so yeah, I'm I'm I'm sort of moving into more kind of rhythmic-based music, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:02

How come?

SPEAKER_02 45:02

And have you been listening to the Yeah, I mean I I've always listened to rhythmic music. Um, but I guess uh yeah, I don't know, it's just what I felt like making.

SPEAKER_00 45:10

Yeah, fair enough.

SPEAKER_02 45:10

No, I don't know in in a in an ideal world I would have, you know, 12 percussionists playing live and um but that's not really feasible.

SPEAKER_00 45:19

Yeah, it's a bit yeah uh well you never know. I don't know, you know a lot of people, so maybe you could um next time you have a party, maybe you should get that organized rather than the party.

SPEAKER_02 45:30

That's it, but yeah, it could just turn into a really bad drum circle, you know.

SPEAKER_00 45:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:34

Um but yeah, I wanted to um mention this book, um Ex Ponto. Which is my artist's name by Iva Andrich. Um so I'd been looking for an English translation of um this book from 1918 of prose poetry and um couldn't find it anywhere. I just looked online, looked far and wide, it just it didn't exist. So I started translating it. So I started doing a translation of of an English translation. I was kind of like maybe a third of the way through and in 2019 or I was in Serbia um in um Kustengrad, you know, the filmmaker Emir Kustelut, he's got this like ethno village. Um and I was in the restaurant um with my partner having having lunch, and there's a library in the restaurant, and uh like right next to me were three copies of this book, ex ponto.

SPEAKER_01 46:23

What?

SPEAKER_02 46:24

And it's English tra like English translation, so half in Serbian, sorry, like half in English, but also illustrated. And I was like, What what how is this possible? And I asked the waiter, I was like, Can I can I buy this? And he was just like, No, sorry, it's you know it's not for sale. Um sorry, I was like, but I was like, you don't understand, I need this bird thing. They're like, I I can't find it anywhere. And he was just like, look, take it to your room, have a read. And just don't return it. Ah I was like, are you sure? He was like, yes, that's fine. So I was like, all right, well, give me your address and I'll send you something in return. So when I go back, I yeah, I I took the book and and and sent Emil the address to Emil Custer. It's a copy of my first record, exponto, as a as a as a exchange.

SPEAKER_00 47:06

So wow. Yeah. Just to give the listeners, although like I will name you as exponto, but like, so your artist's name is exponto, which means actually of the sea.

SPEAKER_02 47:17

Uh well, how would you actually encrypt uh once again I'm really hard to find an exact translation, but um I've the the ones I found is of the sea or of the Black Sea. Um and it's you know um the idea of for for me it's kind of a metaphor of like diving into the you know the deep sea of my the deep sea of mine to you know bring back these kind of ideas that are that are potentially hiding there, waiting to be discovered. Um and yeah, uh my mum's maiden name is Andrij and she's you know not far from Visegrad. Not far from Visegrad, so my connection as well.

SPEAKER_00 47:51

Um yeah, so Ivan Andrij is like a very renowned author uh from Bosna. Bosnian yeah from uh Visegrad.

SPEAKER_01 47:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:00

Um this is uh this is insane. I would feel like this is destined, you know, it's sort of like you caught up you've been caught up by your own, you know.

SPEAKER_02 48:11

It was so weird, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:12

Wow, wow. Well, you definitely deserve this book. And you know, wow. Amazing. Um, I think this is a great way to finish this episode. But oh actually, do you want to say something or like have you have I missed asking you something? Or do you want to ask me something? I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 48:35

Where well I'm I am kind of curious of where you know, uh I know it's you know it's not uh the podcast you've come to interview, but I'm kinda curious to hear about what you're doing at the moment with your music and where what's next. And I know you playing a dark moment for you this year.

SPEAKER_00 48:48

Yeah, that was insane. What's next? I just finished my album. That's why I was asking you about your album, how long it take took you, because it I feel like I've been postponing the ending of the album. It's like I think I've been talking about it as being finished for for almost this full year. But now I think I I let it go. So I'm I literally I think I've it's been a week that I've I've decided okay, I'm I'm letting it go. It's time. So I think I'm in that phase of just um just sort of realizing okay, it is finished. Uh I don't know if you ever have that sense because sometimes now some of the songs that I've disliked I now like, but some of the songs that I've made that I've liked now I'm starting to dislike. I just feel like it's time to get it out of out there.

SPEAKER_02 49:40

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 49:41

I don't know if you ever get that sense.

SPEAKER_02 49:43

Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, and I I almost felt that with my current album as well. It's just like I've just been sitting there for too long and um I think it was just getting it, you know, somebody else's ears on it and getting it mixed and mastered by someone else that kind of finished it for me. So um onto the and I was I'd already been working on so much new stuff and I was like I can't move on you know unless this is like done and behind me. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:06

Um Do you plan on having a launch or in the I think so, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:09

I'll do something hopefully later in the year. Um maybe next year. I I'm not sure when it will actually come out. Um if no one wants to release it. Oh, so you want um Yeah, I'll send to a couple um yeah, I've took a couple of labels and see if they want to put it out and if not, I'll just um lessen the stuff.

SPEAKER_00 50:22

Self-release. Well you were the you know manager of a record store. So you were also in managing the publishing stuff or was that.

SPEAKER_02 50:30

Was that for Dixon's records, you know? So it was um I I think the longest running record store in my album since the late 70s they've been around. And um, yeah, I I walked into a store while I was, you know, 20 years old at to start a union, asked for a job, and I said, I actually need someone and ended up staying there, went on to to manage a store and did a lot of the buying. So um yeah, I did a lot of kind of travelling around and picking up collections and bringing them back and you know, just lots of time yeah, sorting records. But that's great because you've been exposed to it. That's yeah, um, which you know I think sometimes makes it harder to make music because you've been exposed to so much. It's like deciding what am I gonna make today, you know? It's like um I love so many genres of music. It's um yeah. So now I just kind of just like try to just yeah, go in and play. And you know, I've never been one to kind of like pinpoint a sound or you know, like go out to make a s a a certain type of record. I just kind of just make music and see what what comes out.

SPEAKER_00 51:27

Okay, last question and then we'll finish. Um what would you what was the best advice that you ever was were given to? Is that like uh yeah, it can be anything. But I guess we're more in the creative context.

SPEAKER_02 51:44

It's funny you asked that because like the first thing that comes to mind, I don't know if it was good advice, but it definitely worked. I was um at a Serbian wedding when I was maybe like 15 um at the Serbian Sports Centre in Keysborough. And I was kind of enamored by this like you know turbo folk um trio and started chatting to the guitarist. Um, and I was like, you know, what you know, how do I how do I play like you know? And he's just like just go home and try to play as many notes as possible as quickly as you can. Don't think about what you're hitting, and just practice doing that every day. And so I did, and I was just like just to get my fingers moving, and then I started learning kind of tablature, and I think yeah, I don't know. It really resonated with me, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:26

Yeah, okay, I'll take that.

SPEAKER_02 52:27

And it kind of, you know, it helped, you know, in terms of improvisation, it's like just letting go and playing, you know. I really love that, not overthinking, you know.

SPEAKER_00 52:36

Yeah, yeah, playing. Yeah, um great, thanks for that. I think I'm I'm gonna definitely take that because I get a bit. I think I went me personally, I went too much into the structured, but now I'm like sort of fuck it. I just wanna I just wanna play, like have a good time.

SPEAKER_02 52:54

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:56

Um yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:57

But but in saying that, you know, I love the opposite end, you know, like I love artists like you know, Orin Umbachi, who's one of my favorite, you know, local um composers, lives abroad now, but you know, he will play one note for an hour, but just in so many different ways, you know. So I love that as well. The other side of not playing so many notes.

SPEAKER_00 53:16

Okay. I don't know if I'm gonna play that many notes, but yeah, yeah, okay. I'll take that. Um thanks. Thanks for your time. Thanks for having me. And um, good luck with your album. I can't wait. Hey, this is Lutia K. Music Talks podcast. Each month I sit down with musicians, music producers, and sound designers based in Melbourne to talk about the real challenges we face in the industry, whether it's breaking into new markets, battling imposter syndrome, overcoming writers' blocks, or just navigating the cruel world of social media. I approached these conversations as an artist myself, and like most of us, I'm also just trying to figure it all out on the go. I knew that it does job every last Tuesday of the month, so if you want to stay connected, you can just find my newsletter.