Ep 082: Matt Zirnsak from The Push Archery

On this episode, I sit down with Matt Zirnsak from The Push Archery. We talk all things Traditional Archery, what got Matt into the sport, why he started the Push, products he sells, as well as tips and tricks to make you a better Traditional archer and bowhunter.

Follow the Push Archery on Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/thepusharchery

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:21

Welcome back to the Caribou Media Outdoors Podcast. With me tonight is Matt Zernzak from the push. Archery, how's it going? Good. How are you, man? Good. Thanks for coming on here. I appreciate it. I've uh I've seen you a few times at TAC and I've seen your uh your quivers literally everywhere. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:39

Oh yeah, the Pocket Quiver.

SPEAKER_01 0:41

Yeah, the Pocket Quiver. They were at uh I think everybody had one at TAC, and then we uh I put on a a shoot up here in Ontario with a couple of friends of mine uh from the Full Job podcast. We get about around a hundred people come out. Oh, cool. That's awesome. And uh we raise money for whatever club is hosting us. So the last one we did about four thousand dollars to help and buy targets and stuff. We don't take any money, we just uh reach out to companies to donate prizes, and yeah, it's it's awesome. So I I could last count the amount of people at that that I saw with your quick. So that's great. That's great to hear. Yeah, it's awesome. So um what I like to do on here is kind of go back in time with people and just want to find out um how you got into archery and bow hunting and how it all started for you.

SPEAKER_03 1:33

Yeah, for sure. Um, so thanks for having me on, first of all. Yeah, this would be great. Um, but uh yeah, so my origin story, I guess, is I was I cut my teeth on freedom with my buddies in my buddy's van as soon as he could start driving, and we would go jump shoot rabbits, like that was our thing. We just absolutely love jump shooting rabbits, and then also I was uh I I grew up in western Pennsylvania, so I was a big rifle hunter like everybody else. We always look forward to opening day of rifle season. You have over a million uh rifle hunters in the woods on opening day of rifle season in Pennsylvania every year. It's it's wild, and so I would I would do that, and I did that for years, and that was pretty much the extent of my hunting. Um, but my buddies, you know, as we got older, uh they would start going over, they are started archery hunting and they were using compounds and everything. And my um I started getting really interested in going over in the summertimes to the local bow hunting club just to hang out with them because they'd when we were back home for the summertime, we would they would go over there every Tuesday night, drink some beer, shoot some bows, and I'm like, Oh, that that seems so fun! Yeah, but that you know, they were shooting at the time, this would have been you know 2003 to 2005 time frame, they were shooting like 1980s Hoitz compounds with their fingers, fixed single pin site, and they never took care of these bows. So anytime I was around them and the bows came out, like crap was flying off these bows, and like they were derailing them and stuff. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, this is archery, like this doesn't have a good safe at all. Yeah, so I told my wife um in February of that year, like, I want to start shooting with the boys in the summertime and everything, but I'm not not sure about compounds, completely uneducated opinion, to be honest with you. I'm like, but recurves and longbows look pretty cool, and fast forward to that Christmas, she got me my first recurve and down the rabbit hole I went. So that that that's where I got into got into archery and bow hunting, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:23

Robinhood, right? Like it's just we just it's the same kind of thing for me. Like I started when I was around seven, we went to like a um it's like a resort family trip. It was an outdoors kind of place that had a lot of sports, and you know, they'd have um, you know, you go for lunch and they'd they'd have uh a list of things for the kids to do, right? Give the parents a break. And they had like counselors and stuff that would take over and and take the kids to the afternoon. I remember it would be like meet us behind the gym for archery at one o'clock. Sweet. So that's kind of where I first learned about it. And then um and then I got on the archery team at school in public in uh public school, high school, actually, no high school, and uh you know didn't have a lot of school didn't have a lot of money for archery, right? So you got like arrows missing, a flashing, and you just kind of hodgepodge it together. Like, we're going to a tournament. I'm like, we are so that's great. So you know, kept it going there. We were going to tournaments and stuff, and it was just we just it was it was fun, right? We had a blast doing it, and then I kind of got away from it, and uh my friend who I was on the archery team with bought a compound and I didn't know what that was. Like, I remember seeing them at Bass Pro, and right. I remember this is embarrassing now to say, but I remember looking at them thinking, Oh, look, they have three strings in case you break one. Like I thought the cables were bad. Right, right. I didn't know it's the backup string, it's a backup string. So he was like, You have to buy one of these, I'm bringing it over to your house. Um and I'm I'm right-handed, but I'm left eye dominant, so I shoot left. And he's like, You gotta try it, you gotta try it. I'm like, Mike, it's yours is right-handed. Like, I'm not gonna I'll miss the target. He's like, just shoot, just do it. He brought over these like purple aluminum arrows, however, and I shot them all into the cornfield around my house. No kidding, but that kind of got it going for me again. So I'm shooting lots of compound now, but I I find that I keep wanting to circle back to where I started. So yeah, cool. I can see myself picking up a trabo at some point or that's awesome. Recurve of some kind. But um have you ever shot one like as an adult? Uh no, so not since yeah, not since high school, really. Yeah, yeah. Maybe a little bit here and there. Like I was in a I was in an antique store um near my cottage, and they had uh a red fiberglass like $30 starter bow. And I remember going to my uh my mom's friend's farm, and she kind of went into the closet and pulled out the exact same thing. Oh no, handed me some arrows and were like, go shoot the hay bales, right? Yeah, so I saw that and I'm like, oh my god, I have to buy that. That's awesome. I'm not I don't see myself using it, but I just needed to have it. Yeah, I need to have that a reminder of of the past. So how did um when did the push start and how where'd the name come from and all that stuff?

SPEAKER_03 6:30

Yeah, yeah, good question. So kind of back to continuing the story. Uh I fell in love with traditional archery after I received it that December, trained my butt off all year round. I mean, you could not get keep that bow out of my hand. I was just shooting and training and training, got to the point where I where I was like feeling very confident coming into the my first uh archery season with it. And over the first two seasons, I missed 11 deer clean over the back, and I killed my 12th over in my second season. So I shot six in the first season and four in the or five in the second season, and then I killed my 12th whenever I shot it in my sixth year. And it was just like just relentless stupidity, too stupid to know when to quit, type of attitude that I had. And you know, I I started getting like really frustrated with the sport just in general. But after I killed one, the next season went better. I killed two and maybe only missed one. And over the years I started getting like figuring it out and being able to handle my crap under pressure with a deer standing in front of me. Then I started shooting indoor archery. I I was just there with my bow hunting rig, I had my bow quiver on, 55-pound bow, still leaning over, run running my instinctive archery shot, like I, you know, bow hunted and everything. And I looked down the line, and there's this guy shooting uh a bear bow, which is you know, a 17 or I'm sorry, uh a 72-inch bow, essentially. It's a 27-inch metal riser. It's what you it's basically what you see in the Olympics, a long, more modern recurve, ILF limph fits, and uh they had stabilizers and sights and everything. So a bear bow is just a stripped-down Olympic recurve that has to fit through a 12.2 centimeter ring. And so you have all the weights and all the adjustments that you want on the bow, but they the whole bow has to fit through a ring. So he's down there and he's doing this funky thing coming down the string. He's string walking and he's aiming down the arrow and he's standing up tall like a man, you know, big T-post, classic style, poof, just ripping these shots, and he's hammering the gold. And I'm over there, like, if I can keep it in the blue and in, yeah, we're good. I'm happy I'm happy, right? I'm a bow hunter. That's all, that's all I care about, right? And I was just so blown away. My camera's goofing up here, but I was just so blown away at his proficiency that the next week I was a few lanes closer, and the next week a few lanes closer until eventually we're gonna be friends.

SPEAKER_02 8:50

Yeah, but we're gonna be friends, we're gonna be friends, and so we became friends.

SPEAKER_03 8:55

Yeah, he took me under his wing, and then I just got obsessed with competitive bare bow archery. So 3D tournaments. I I went all around the country on the IBO circuit there for a few years, shot every indoor tournament I possibly could. And what I started knowing noticing is I'm rubbing elbows with quite literally the greatest single-string non-sighted archers in the world, and I'm like pulling all this knowledge from them, but my shot percentage and my effect uh effective range and my lethality in the woods just started climbing year over year until the point where like I got really good at killing deer with a recurve by using everything I was learning on the tournament circuit and applying it to my hunting shot. And so back to the original question you know, how did the push start? Um, I I brought a bunch of people in. Once I started getting really good at putting down deer on a regular basis, I started bringing people under my wing. A lot of people started showing interest. They wanted to convert over from their compound. My all my buddies that were shooting compounds, they all one by one converted and wanted to, you know, get into recurves and longbows. And so I I brought like 20 some guys under my wing, show them like the process of how I shoot the bow, you know, some biomechanics lessons and get them outfitted with the right bow, with the right poundage, and then off to the race as they go. And so um, my original partner, my co-founder of the push, he was a really awesome compound bow hunter, and he just got interested in it. We went to high school together, so he reached out to me. I brought him through the program. He got really good really fast. And he we were like, he's really good at videography. I have the lesson plan. Let's just make a video for YouTube because I was just so frustrated with the lack of information out there that everybody that I would tell my story to, like, I missed 11 deer straight till I killed my 12th. I a lot of head nods, like, oh yeah, yeah. So I had a similar, I had a similar experience with that. Like, I haven't picked up my recurve since, you know, that kind of thing. And so we just wanted to put together a soup to nuts one-stop shop video, and it ended up being two hours long, taught you all about all the different types of recurves and longbows, arrows, aiming methods. Um, and it kind of went viral, as viral as viral could go in a niche community like traditional archery. Um, so that launched in 2016, and one video turned into seven, and then in 2017 we launched a podcast, and the stuff that we cover is like really instructional in form. So it's biomechanics, mental control, tuning, um, just equipment reviews, all that different type of stuff. And so the podcast and the YouTube channel just continued to grow. Uh, you know, 10 years later, we have you know in the mid-400s for podcast episodes and over 400 videos on the YouTube channel as well. Um, then we started filming our bow hunts because you know, we could give all the instruction from 2016 to 2018, 2019, but we were like, let's just show them. Like, that's also that's another great avenue to get people into the sport of trying traditional archery was like, let's show them how effective they can be in the woods and like just show us killing a bunch of deer. Uh, so we started doing those and the hunting videos got really popular, and um, yeah, and that's kind of the kind of the story of the push. And the push, actually, the name, the title of of the original film was The Push, a traditional archery film. And it was intended to be like, this is the nudge you need. There's so many tire kickers with traditional archery of guys that are like me, like you, like I've always wanted to come back to it. I've tried it when I was a kid, and you know, and eventually a lot of guys they just they kind of tech out, you know, they they reach all of their goals, they they shoot the 180-inch deer a couple years in a row, and then they're like, What's the next challenge? What's the next progression here in my hunting career? And so then they want to try something and like kind of reset the calibration cycle of like, all right, we're starting all over again.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

Yeah, time for another new challenge, right?

SPEAKER_03 12:50

That's right, yeah, exactly. So that's kind of that's kind of where we came. Our the push, our mission statement is to help expedite the traditional archery learning curve. So that's kind of where we're seeing.

SPEAKER_01 12:59

So do you find that when people come over from the compound side, do they stay? Do they jump back and forth? Does it uh so a lot of guys, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:09

A lot of guys, it depends on what they're trying to do with it. Some a lot of times you hear, I'm gonna shoot up my as soon as I shoot fill my buck tag, I'm gonna use my recurve to to fill a dough tag. You know, that you hear that a bunch. A lot of guys do that for a few seasons as they're getting comfortable, you know, under high pressure. Because a lot of what basically what's happening is these guys like will they're not getting proper instruction, and they're kind of approaching these weapons like they're mystical, and they're like seeing Legolas and Hawkeye and Katniss Evergreen in the movies, like jumping over burning buildings and cars and kind of hip shooting these recurves and stuff. And they that's cool. That is so cool to watch those movies, but it's not the way you achieve yeah, it's not the way you achieve accuracy with these bows. But some guys, you know, they go back and forth, sometimes they just use both all the times. I mean, some one of the greatest traditional bow hunters I know, Logan Glassburn. I mean, he he hunts every year with his recurve in his compounds, and that dude has more 170, 180, 190 inch deer with his recurve than anybody I know.

SPEAKER_01 14:14

Yeah, so yeah. So what's your your what's your effective range? Are you usually staying within because I know like uh whenever we host these tournaments, we try to we try to stretch it out a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 14:28

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

Um not like tack, but just not 40 yards, right? Like we try to 40 yards and then we try to make it a little more uh challenging at times, and and the three of us will be at a kind of like a novelty shot where we'll be at like 81 and a half, right?

unknown 14:45

Right.

SPEAKER_01 14:46

So people will come through and they'll they'll they'll shoot with us and they'll have to try and beat us at the target. And if they do, then they get a ticket for a 50% off gift card for vortex or whatever. So we kind of have fun with it that way. That's cool. And I remember the first time we did it, uh, a lot of people loved it, some people hated it. Most of the people that hated it were the traditional people, yeah, right. I get it, I get it. It's not fair, right? Yeah, that's like a party. You literally have to aim at the top of the trees, right? Yeah, um, but not all. There um there was one guy in particular who said that make sure you say that we're not all like that, right? So um, and there was a lot of a lot of uh a lot of the trad guys that and and girls that loved it and were just like this is awesome. I've never done anything like this before. Like usually it's 30 or less. Um so what do you what do you find personally for yourself like for for hunting, but then also for practice? Do you tend to stretch it out or do you oh yeah, for for practice?

SPEAKER_03 15:46

Like I'm getting ready for a hunt here coming up, and I was out shooting broadheads uh earlier today, and I was shooting my broadheads at 40 yards. Um, so I mean I come from the comp or the competitive realm. So we're shooting field archery. Um, so you know, NFA field archery, the field nationals are out to 80 yards with our with our bare bow rig. So it's like far distance outdoor target. If you go to outdoor target nationals, that's 50 meters. So 55 yards is is what you're shooting your entire round. You're shooting 144 arrows at 55 yards. Um, so those distances don't scare me as like the the competitive side of things, but I'm kind of Jekyll and Hyde on the subject because with bow hunting, just things can go wrong. High pressure situation, you can't replicate what you feel in a tree stand. You just can't replicate. I'm a competitive archer, my heart starts thumping, I get these adrenaline dumps, my my biology changes, heavy breathing, shaky hands all the time when I'm stepping up on the line at Lancaster to lay down a score for qualifications. That's great. Then that gives you tons of great reps of shooting high pressure arrows, but it doesn't replicate like a buck walking down that path, and the shot is eminent and like it's go time. And so I personally recommend everybody that's moving into their first season, no matter what you're doing in the yard, keep your shots at 18 yards and under. Like, I I'm a good shot. I am. I'm I'm above average, I shoot really well, I shoot really often. I'm blessed to be able to shoot a lot. And I hate shooting a deer at past 20 yards. Do I? You know, when the green light's on and everything's right, and you know, you kind of have that like internal subconscious green light as like you're watching your float, deer's calm, everything's looking good, you feel the tensions in the right direction. Like, okay, I'm gonna let it eat. And like last year I shot a doe at 23 yards, it's a great shot. But when I go back and look at all of our films on our YouTube channel from the past five years or so, I mean, my average shot shot distance is 14 yards, and so I I I just completely try to make all of my setups. I'm a mobile hunter, and everything I'm doing is like I'm trying to see the whites of their eyeballs whenever I'm shooting them, you know. That's that's the goal. And so I recommend like, can I can I go and keep most of my arrows out of 10, you know, eight, nine arrows out of 10 in the vitals at 30 yards with my broadheads? Yeah, absolutely. I do it all the time, every day. But I I hate shooting a deer past 20 yards. I really do. You know, it's it's really a game of how close, not how far with a recurve. It's just different, you know, it's definitely different.

SPEAKER_01 18:19

Yeah, yeah, it's always good to get as close as you can. It's kind of I think for me, I I like it more because you get to be more present in the moment and you're seeing the animal breathing, and like you said, their eyes and the everything, it's just that whole uh time kind of standing still. Oh yeah, it's that's what it's all about. Like it's a whole thing, but yeah, yeah, you know get me jacked up for hunting season, man. Yeah, I know, but you know, just standing too early in the year. You know, shooting from way far away just kind of takes away from it for me anyway. I just you know, there's times where I'll be like we can bait up here, so we'll bait for bears and for white tail and stuff, but there's times where I've been at 20 and I'm like I'm kind of too close. I feel like I'm too close to like the slightest little thing is gonna set them off. But then that's all part of the game, right? Right, right, absolutely. No doubt about that. So, can you go over your setup for for us? Your hunting in your competition?

SPEAKER_03 19:25

Yeah, so this is my this is my hunting setup here. Try to show the camera here. So this is a Hoit Satori. Oh, that's like yeah, it's a 17-inch riser. Um so what I do is I run it off of an elevated rest, it's a springy rest here, and it's attached to an AccuTune, which is a micro adjustable side plate, so it helps with tuning. Um, I'm running Uka VX Plus limbs. Uh, this is a 17-inch Satori. You can see behind me I have tons of Satories. I've like I have a little bit of a problem. I have two 21s, a 19 and a 17 here. So um, but yeah, this is I I bow hunted all last year and actually probably the previous three years with 21-inch metal risers with long limbs. So that makes a 66-inch total length bow, which is long. Whenever you look at like the average traditional bow hunter, they're running 58 to 62 inch bows somewhere in there. So 66 inches is is long. Um, but the transition that I have moving from my bare bow rig, which is right here, um, and that's a 72-inch bow. The string angle is really nice, it's soft, it's light poundage. And uh, what I've been doing is over the years, every single year, my my bows tend to get just a little bit longer um and a little bit lighter in draw weight as well. Just with modern technology of the limbs, modern broadhead technology, our understanding of tuning and biomechanics to shoot these bows, like you really don't like the 65 pounds or bust of you know, 30 years ago is is kind of over. Um, I hunted all the last probably four seasons with 41 pounds at my draw length, which is light. You know, it's it's really light. But what it does for me is I'm competing all the way up until hunting season, and then jumping into a tree and having to go from my competitive draw weight of like 40, 39 to 41 pounds, and then jump to like 49 pounds, 52 pounds for bow hunting. That gap is like try to make that turn in like a two-week time frame, getting ready for my first hunting season or my first hunt. Uh, it's just rough. So I've just been experimenting, bringing the poundage down, and it it's amazing. My lethality and everything is just on the rise because I can it the shot placement is so good because I'm my body's not trying to get out of an uncomfortable situation. I can get back, I can hold, run through my mental programming. Um, and I mean full full pass throughs on on this this setup for sure. Well, I'll give you the quick rundown. I'm running safari tough. My next question. Old school arrows. Uh four fletch configuration. These are these are feathers. Um Safari Tough old school arrow. It's a 516 diameter. And then I I run a VPA3 blade.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

Oh, nice. Yeah. Do you have any uh any issues with the feathers in weather or in rain or anything?

SPEAKER_03 22:21

Yeah, there's a product called trad veins that are really nice. They're like a real thin um plastic feather or vein that that glues onto your arrow that really is is malleable. Uh so it whenever you if you have any contact issue, they kind of act like feathers. Um so I usually tune up and they they fly pretty close to feathers as well. So uh I just tune up a few of those as well and have those in my quiver. So inclement weather, I'm just gonna put the snap that one of those on the string and you're good to go. That's one of the benefits of shooting off an elevated rest.

SPEAKER_01 22:54

It's really nice, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 22:56

Um, with the broadheads, do you do you tend to test a bunch or do you usually stick with uh I test some through the summertime, but for the most part, I don't I can't remember the last time I walked in the woods without a VPA3 blade, honestly. Like it just kind of does it all for me. It's it's nice, it's a great, it's it's a great broadhead, super easy to sharpen. Um, you know, pull it out of the dirt, strop it a few times with a bastard file and jewel stick and strop it on some cardboard or leather and it's hair popping sharp again and right back in the quiver.

SPEAKER_01 23:28

Yeah, it's hard to beat the the hole of a three blade for sure. Yeah, you know, yeah. Two blades are great, but then there's times when it's like, is it gonna close? Is it gonna but that three blade is like, nope, we're good. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 23:40

Usually, usually, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

Awesome. Um what are some of the biggest mistakes that you see um with the with traditional archery that people are making, maybe when they transition over?

SPEAKER_03 23:54

Oh, yeah, yeah, there's there's a few. I I would say the number one and most important one is guys basically throw out all of their sweat equity that they've accrued over decades of shooting a compound and just throw it out the window and then approach this bow completely differently. And a good example I always say is like I'm always shooting at all different right ranges and events. And if I'm kind of there and I have a compound guy that's kind of hanging out the practice range and I'm shooting, you know, they're they're always kind of side-eyeing you a little bit and like, oh, you shoot that pretty good. Uh those are cool. And then they share some stories about oh, I used to have one of those as a kid, and and I always offer you want to shoot my bow because you know, you can you can draw it to 27 inches or 29 inches, it doesn't matter, which is awesome. So I love offering, and they're no, no, no. And then a couple ends later, usually they're like, Okay, okay, let's let's do this. So it's amazing because all day at the range I watch this guy stand straight up in a classic T position, come back with his hinge release, you know, drawback, he aims the bow, addresses the thumb button or starts rolling his hinge release, and he's just keeps going bang and just a super strong shot, bang, and he's repeatable, doing it over and over again. Yeah. I mean, if if I took videos of these guys, man, it's just like the same over and over again. And then as soon as they get the recurve in their hands, their feet go wider than shoulder width apart, they bend over like they're taking a dump and they bend the bow over like 45 degrees, and they're just yeah, right? They're just can't even get their hand to their face, and they're just just winging them down there like they see in the movies, right? And it's like you have deck decades of sweat equity built into this beautiful, classic, super accurate form that you have with your compound, and then you're gonna throw it out the window because the bow doesn't have let off and it feels a little different. So, my biggest advice to these guys is shoot the recurve exactly like you shoot the compound, right? It's gonna be different. You're gonna have to have a finger tab to protect your fingers. You're actually grabbing onto the string, which is a little different. Obviously, you don't have a release aid, but some of these modern bows, like these Satori's that I have, the grips feel really similar, they're small, just like a compound. Hold that bow vertical, draw back to your anchor, cam over into your back. And that's another issue is the the biomechanics of this, is if you're at full draw, if you're looking at from from above, this elbow needs to be in line with the string or slightly past it. Because with the recurve, we don't have cams rolling over that are taking the poundage off. And with a compound, I mean, there's no offense here, but from a biomechanics perspective, you don't have to be as precise. You can just kind of draw that bow back, and once the cams roll over, it's not that much holding weight. So you can engage a little bit of bicep, you can have your shoulder girdle holding some of that tension, and then you're just manipulating the release, your thumb button or whatever. So, but with a recurve, our bodies are the cam. So you have to get into that proper position to hold that bow weight because if you're shy of alignment, so if you're viewing a recurve archer from behind and you're looking at them shoot, that tip of their string side elbow needs to get to the string or slightly past the string. And what that's going to do is that's gonna make the bow want to fold you over backwards. There's a really weird feeling you get when you get into the proper holding position for with a recurve. It's almost like you can sit there all day because the bow is pushing on your bones, it's pulling against your bones, your bone-on-bone alignment. So those are the two big things. One, don't bend over and yip the arrow at the target and try to like shoot instinctively. Just stand up tall, run your compound shot. You have tons of sweat equity built into that. Run that same exact shot. You're gonna come around with your shoulder side, you're gonna get your elbow back behind the string and you're gonna run your shot that way. And the third thing is I highly recommend people don't try to shoot instinctively to start. Let's learn what 175 feet per second looks like from an arrow trajectory perspective. Because we're so used to seeing 260, 270, 280 with a compound. Yeah, even now, you know, into the 300s. Let's let's just let's start learning what that trajectory is. And you can use the tip of the arrow. The tip of the arrow is a single pin sight, it's right there in front of you. Don't ignore it, don't stare past it and stare at the target. Like, let's use this, let's figure out when I come back to full draw and I stick the tip of my arrow on the target. At what distance does that arrow arc up and hit that target? And for most traditional archers, it's gonna be between 30 and 40 yards. You're gonna have a distance with the weight of your bow, the length of your arrow, the weight of your arrow that you can come back into your repeatable anchor, your repeatable back, you know, your back tension here, stick the tip of the arrow right on the target and then let it eat, and it's gonna arc up and hit there. And then from there, now you know what your fixed single pin sight is sighted in for. So let's say it's 30 yards. And just like a compound, if you only had one fixed pin and you're and it's set for 30 yards, if you're standing at 15, you're gonna hit high. So at 15, you need to stick that single pin below the target a little bit. So it's the same with a recurve. You just put the tip of the arrow five inches below where you want to hit, and it's gonna arc up and hit where you need it to hit at 15 yards.

SPEAKER_00 29:22

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SPEAKER_01 30:27

And that's sorry. Go ahead. No, you got that's considered your point on, is that right?

SPEAKER_03 30:32

Yeah, your point ons, whatever distance you can draw back into your same repeatable anchor, stick the tip of the arrow right on the middle of the target and shoot your shot, and it arcs up and it hits right there. That's going to be what your you know, quote unquote single pin is tuned for or is dialed into. And so once you start learning those gaps, and that's called gap shooting. So once you start learning those gaps, then now you can like it becomes really instinctive. You know, you're sitting there and you have a deer coming in at 10 yards, you know you need to be down by the the knuckle, right? And you could draw back and stick the tip of your arrow right there at the knuckle and then let it eat. It's gonna arc up and hit right in the vitals, and you can map all that out, you know.

SPEAKER_01 31:14

So it's a lot more mental preparation learning your basically your site window for before you go out hunting for sure. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:24

Yeah, I mean it's it's it's no different. Like, that's kind of why I always draw these analogies to the compound because it's no different. Honestly, these weapons are no different than a compound, like they're all they're doing is setting an arrow on a trajectory path. That's it. You know, so if that arrow is getting set on a trajectory path and you're repeatable on your biomechanics, you know, you're trying to get your biomechanics shooting a recurve to be as close to a compound biomechanics as possible. And if you can get that repeatable, then now the the tip of your arrow now becomes a really repeatable sight, and you can start aiming with that high. You can hold high, you know, 35 yards, 38 yards. If your point ons 30, you can hold at the top of the back, and you'd be amazed at how accurate you can be.

SPEAKER_01 32:06

And do you find there's a is there a difference or is it more of a comfort thing between split finger and three under? Yeah, I've only ever done the split finger, and when I saw the three under, I was like, what are they doing? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:19

I I highly recommend shooting three under for sure. Really? Oh, yeah, because you know, if if you have an arrow here, let me grab an arrow.

SPEAKER_01 32:27

Is that more because you're bringing it right to your eye?

SPEAKER_03 32:29

That's right, exactly. So if I'm shooting split finger, I'm learning, and I'm back here and I'm back here at full draw and I'm using the middle finger in the corner of my mouth, right? And then I I another big point is this back anchor is just like looking through your peep. Okay, so this has to be super repeatable. So a lot of people will say, I'm just gonna use the middle finger corner of my mouth. That's my anchor. But look how spongy this anchor is. You can move it all around, and an eighth inch back here is inches at the target of 20 yards. So you have to have a really repeatable anchor. I have a three-point anchor. The first one is the base of my thumb knuckle back behind my jawbone back here. My second anchor is the top the very base of my index finger up against my cheekbone, like I'm resting my head on a gun stock. And then I find a landmark on the string or on the knock of the arrow with the side of my nose. And so I've created a three-point anchor, which is a plane, and now everything's repeatable every single time I come into anchor. So that's really important. But if I come into this repeatable anchor, I'm shooting split finger, you could see where the arrow is in relationship to my eye, right? And so this is gonna represent a really far shot because if I want to stick the tip of my arrow on something, I have to really raise it up, right? And and that that launch angle is gonna be long. So if I shot an arrow like this from down here on this lower anchor, I mean, I my point on distance is probably 50 yards, but with a 50 yard point on, the halfway point is 25 yards, which is a really common distance we shoot. And and it that's gonna be a huge gap. Like you're gonna be literally aiming two feet to three feet under the target, right? At 25 yards. So what you do is you go to three under, which is underneath the arrow, and you come into the same anchor point, you can see how much closer that arrow is to my eye.

SPEAKER_01 34:18

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:19

And then there's a thing called string walking, which is what I do, is where you grab the grab the string below the knock of the arrow at a repeatable place, and it's no different than going from split to three under to a little bit of a crawl. All you're doing is trying to get that arrow underneath your eye. And so whenever I'm running a crawl, my I'm like literally sighting down that arrow like a like a shotgun barrel. I'm looking straight down that arrow. And what that's doing is that's bringing my point-on distance really, really short. And if the point on distance is short, then my gaps are short. And so I have a pretty cool system where I use the the base of the broadhead. So I align my broadheads vertically in my sight window. So that's what my broadhead looks like when I'm at full draw. And so I paint the back of the broadhead with white paint, and so I set my crawls to the very tip of my broadhead blade is 18 yards, mid blade is 25, base of blade is 30. But the real benefit to this is anything 18 yards and under, which is what I prefer to shoot, I'm sticking the very tip of my broadhead blade at the base of the chest. I don't care if it's eight yards, I don't care if it's 16 yards. All I gotta do is come back to full draw, and the tip of my broadhead blade just butts up against the base of the chest, and I can let it eat, and it's gonna stroke the the vitals.

SPEAKER_01 35:43

That's interesting. Yeah, I've never thought about that. Well, I guess whenever I did it, we never had broadheads on. So yeah, sure. That's a great way to look at it.

SPEAKER_03 35:51

It's just a it's just a really nice, you know, post site for aiming, and it's just a little graduated, you know, you can put the heart, you know, anywhere on that bladehead blade that you want, or even hold it a little low.

SPEAKER_01 36:03

Do you think um do you think it's more mental or more technique? What's what do you think on a side?

SPEAKER_03 36:10

I think they're they're they're very hand in glove, if you will. So they're very, very much tied together because if you have bad biomechanics and form and you're not in alignment and that and you're overbowed and you're shooting a heavy bow, and your body is screaming at you because the bow's wanting to fold you over the whole time at full draw since there's no let off, your brain, your mental game, is just gonna be screaming at you, like, get me get me out of this uncomfortable situation. So you're not gonna be able to come to full draw, hold there comfortably, aim the bow, and then move on with an accurate shot. Instead, you're gonna be like, it's just like kind of punching the trigger as soon as the sight pin bobs, you know, up into the gold for a second. You're like, it's like your bow's tied to your foot, you can't get it up on the target, and then you just drive by shoot it, right? So that biomechanics is really, really important, but also a good mental game is really important. So I I always push people to like focus on your weakest link and then circle back to the to the next. So if biomechanics are you're really struggling to to stay accurate, you maybe have a little bit of body pain, or it's really a struggle to stay at full draw for longer than three seconds, then you need to work on your biomechanic my biomechanics and your equipment a little bit, and then you can move on to some mental stuff.

SPEAKER_01 37:23

And what is it about the the limbs? I always hear people saying that they switch out their limbs. Um sorry, what was the what did you say you had on yours? Uh I have I it's called an ILF limb system. Yep. Was it was there another name you use though? Um what's the name of the company?

SPEAKER_03 37:41

Uh I have UCA limbs. I'm always hearing UCA. Yeah, UCA limbs are are really good.

SPEAKER_01 37:47

What what uh what makes them so so much better than what whatever would come with?

SPEAKER_03 37:54

So they're a monolithic carbon limb, which is really cool. So they're basically machining this profile, they're they're heating the profile, getting it to where it needs to be, and then they're coming back through and machining out all the excess to where they can get this limb profile that they want. They come in 80% carbon, 20% glass, and then 90 10, and then they do 100% monolithic carbon as well, which is really, really cool. So they're just really repeatable, really stable in all different types of weather conditions. Um, and yeah, swapping limbs. So the international limphit. So international limphit is this connection system here on the ends of the risers. So basically the limbs come and straddle this. Uh wish I had a set of limbs here. Hold on one second. So there's the limb fit. So there's a dovetail here, and then the limbs just basically snap right into the riser. And the cool thing about this like that. So you can just basically pop them out with your thumb, find that groove, snap them back in, and that's it, and the tension of the bow is what's holding these limbs in. Holding them in place. Yeah, so it's pulling it down against that, which is really, really cool. And so the cool thing about these bows, these ILF bows, set that stuff down, is that all of those limb geometries, so like this is my hunting riser, and it's the same exact geometry as that competition bow. So the distance from the detent of this dovetail to the actual tiller bolt itself is all standardized. And so I can buy limbs from a hundred different manufacturers and risers from a hundred different manufacturers, they're all gonna connect and they're all gonna work, which is really cool.

SPEAKER_01 40:00

That's awesome. Yeah, every time I see the Satori, I'm like, don't touch it, you're gonna want to buy one.

SPEAKER_03 40:04

They're awesome, they're so good. And the nice thing about ILF is like they're you can go and buy on Lancaster, you can buy a cheap $120 30-pound set of limbs, and you can invest in a nice riser like the Satori. And so you can buy those limbs for $150, snap them on the bow, get a string for it, shoot them until you get good you're working grow good on your form, and then you can just basically sell those limbs and then buy another $150 set that's 45 pounds, and you can slowly work your way up until the point whenever you're ready to invest in a nicer set of limbs, and then you can like dive into the hookahs, which is really okay.

SPEAKER_01 40:43

Um, what's something that you've seen um change in the in the community since you started? Um in the traditional community, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:56

Definitely like open acceptance of just different styles of shooting. You know, when we first launched our first video and we were, you know, talking about aiming the bow and string walking and coming down the string and doing all these advanced aiming techniques and stuff, like it was met with you know, half the community was like, This is this is amazing. I'm shooting better than I've ever shot in my entire life. And the other half of you know, and so, but it's been 10 years, it's been 10 years, and we've come a long way. And uh, you know, a lot of people are are super supportive of the push. And yeah, just it it's been it's been a really cool ride to see the community changing and being like very innovative again and kind of pushing it. I recently did a podcast uh with a guy that had left the sport, and he was a super innovative guy, and he made a really interesting uh observation of he shot a lot in the 60s and 70s, and then he left the sport, and then he came back in the early 2000s, and so he left during the time of when the compound got introduced, became really popular. Traditional archery kind of went away, and there was a few people continuing to carry the torch, and then there was a huge resurgence of traditional archery in the like late 90s into the early 2000s. And what he noticed was when he came back to traditional archery the second time, it was not open to innovation because they were in this preservation mode, they were basically trying to preserve the past in spite of advances in technologies and other weapon systems. Uh, and and so we have cut gotten over that hump now, but when now people are creating like really awesome limb designs and riser designs, and you know, just really pushing the performance limits of of traditional archery. It's really cool.

SPEAKER_01 42:44

Do you think there's any crossover between compound and traditional in terms of the technology? Or do you think they're oh, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_03 42:51

Yeah. I I mean our community, archery community in general, is so small. And so there's absolutely like when I talk to these big names, these big designers and engineers at different companies, uh, the connections are all over the place. You know, these guys were talking to the lead engineer at Hoyt, and the lead engineer at Hoyt's talking to this top athlete who's was influenced by this, you know, other engineer. So it's just amazing how how small the community is, and it's really cool.

SPEAKER_01 43:16

Where do you see it going in the next five or ten years? Continuing to grow.

SPEAKER_03 43:25

No, I I mean, I think you know, new broadhead technology. Um, but it we're getting to the point from a physics perspective that you just really can't do much more since it's you know a simple lever arm attached to a riser handle. It's it's really tough to like I can't see it going a huge step function improvement in in performance. Uh, but where I where I do see the community going, I I see the conversion from compound just continuing to grow in Expedite. And what I think I see happening is you know, with All the technology infiltrating the hunting community, these big names, these guys that are that are at the top of the game are using you know cell cameras and different technologies, like the technology for us to be able to information share, track specific deer in the woods, um, and and then also the effectivity of our weapon systems now. It's just it's incredible to me. It just still blow blows my mind the amount of 180 inch to 210 inch deer that are killed every year. It is unbelievable to me, right? Because we just know so much about the animals, we know where they live. We basically can track them at all times with our trail cams. I think I'm gonna start seeing what we're seeing right now is people are going, they're not really driving with where the community's going, and they're trying to get a little technology out of their out of their boat hunting game.

SPEAKER_01 44:52

Yeah, I found that this year, this is the first year I used a cell cam, and well, at least one that worked properly. Uh I was getting pictures non-stop of this bear that kept coming in, and I had him down, like he almost had a watch on, right? He was showing up basically the same time of the day, all like four times a day, all around the same time. Uh and I caught myself a few times thinking, Well, I'm not gonna go out because he's not gonna show up. I was like, fuck, it's taking the fun out of it. Like, yeah, there's something about going up to a camera and pulling a card and not knowing what's on it, right? Right until you go back, but getting those uh instant uh pictures, it's cool, but it also I find at least this year I've noticed, it's kind of like I almost want to put it away because the drive to go out and just experience whatever is gonna happen, yeah, was slowly starting to back off a bit because I was like, Well, it's not he's he's been the only bear consistent on this particular camera. Yeah, and I know he's not gonna be here this time, so why am I going? And I caught I've caught myself a few times, like, how dare you say that? Like, I know get out there and have a good time, right?

SPEAKER_03 46:00

But it's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 46:02

It's scary kind of how some of this technology can just start playing with her mind and trying to I've had a similar I had a really similar experience to that as well.

SPEAKER_03 46:11

Like, I I've put a trail cam out, um, like a uh cell cam up on top of uh the property, I we call it the hill. So there's this one like congregation spot, it's an evening feeding area, staging area, if you will, before they get to their destination food source. And if I know if I put a camera there, like I'm getting pictures of pretty much every buck in the area, if I have it out from you know late June to start a hunting season. And I just started like living and dying off of those things, and then what I noticed was I was getting ready to go hunt and I noticed the app opening up, like just it just became natural for me to be like, I wonder if something's up there right now. Am I gonna blow it out on the sneak up there? Right. And as soon as I started doing that, I I I felt that urge to do that. I was like, no, I'm done, I'm done. Because I I know it's you know, we see it on YouTube all the time. We see these, you know, these very successful bow hunters like in the tree stand looking at their phone, going like, he's on his feet, he's on the way here. And they get up and they get ready. And it's like, man, where's where's like the where's the mystery there? Where's like the that's you know, the mystery? That's it. So I I have I'm on year, I think this will be year three or four of just completely stop using trail cameras altogether. Oh, yeah, even the card ones, and it's been just awesome, man. Like, just it's refreshing because it's just you don't know what's coming. You get intel from the neighbors, you get intel from the property owners, and then you start collecting that intel as the season goes on, like what you're seeing on the ground, but also, oh, I saw this buck. This whoa, that's an awesome buck, right? You didn't even know he was like around, you know, and you see him exit, and then you have to start putting the pieces together. And it's just I don't know, it's brought the fun back.

SPEAKER_01 47:55

Brought the fun back. Yeah, that's awesome. Uh let's talk about these quivers. Where did the idea come for the bucket quiver? So this thing is wicked. I used it for the whole tournament, and it was just I'm like, this is so simple, I don't need I don't even need a hip lift.

SPEAKER_03 48:12

Yeah, so we our our first flagship product here uh is uh was the alpha pack, right? So this is a minimalist bow hunting pack. Yeah, it goes on your hip at the truck, it doesn't come off you until you get back to the truck. So it has all your essentials on your weak side at all times, and then we added the quiver pocket and it doubles as a quiver. And I'm glad we did because we saw a ton of these as as quivers as well. So these are really nice.

SPEAKER_01 48:36

I was I was stuck when I was looking at it because I saw the pocket one first, and then you showed me that and was like, damn it. I know, right? You came for this one, but now we show you something.

SPEAKER_03 48:46

That was that one's funny because people are always like, dude, that's a that is such a cool looking quiver and like very purpose built. But then whenever I give them the demo of like this is why it's actually a minimalist white tail hunting bow, like bow hunting pack, like that's all it is. And then we added the quiver feature later, and then the quiver feature turned out to be really awesome in it. So, but that one's a funny one because once people see the demo on they're like, Oh, that's cool. I now I want one of those too. But but the but basically to answer your question, the the pocket quiver um was we invented it. I invented it because I was honestly tired of putting my alpha pack on every time I wanted to go out, I shoot a lot of arrows. I'm I'm working here in the push headquarters all the time. I take breaks regularly, go out and shoot 12 arrows or whatever. And I was tired of putting on this big heavy pack every time or this big heavy quiver. So I wanted something that, as you probably saw, is getting up, getting bows. Like I wear gym shorts all day, every day. And I wanted something that could be compatible with gym shorts, and then that's how we designed the that magnetic quiver here. Uh, the magnet part was actually it's like it was designed to slide down into the waistband of gym shorts, and then uh, you know, iteration two. I'm like, well, we might as well make it a back pocket shape and fit most jeans shapes. And then once then when we kind of stopped there, we'd like got it on like second or third run, and then I sent it to two of my buddies. This was back in like 2022 or something like that. I sent it to a few of my buddies, and they just fell in love with it. And they kept saying, Every shoot I go to, everywhere I go, people were like begging me, like, where can I get these things? And it wasn't until like 2024 that I actually brought it. I was tired of hearing them say that, and I'm like, Fine, I'll make it. Like we started making them. I'm glad we did because they're so popular, you know. It's so good, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:35

And it's so awesome that you can you can adjust the angle too. Like, I I've had it in jeans, I've had it in I have the worm primitive pants, so I've I've got the pockets at the front. Yeah, so I slid I slid it in there, and then I find well it was like bouncing and hit me and almost hit me in the face. So if you just slightly turn it, perfect. Yeah, right. It's so it's so adjustable, and the magnet is so strong, it's awesome. Yeah, we use some pretty heavy-duty magnets, and uh the pocket you can hold your release in there, and the magnet will will keep it tight too. So that's awesome. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:09

So it's been it's been really good. Yeah, we went to the Seven Springs Tacks. So these have been out since 2024, roughly, and then like the traditional archery community, and all of our quivers are real popular in the traditional community. And then I was like, I our quivers don't care what type of bow you shoot or type of arrows that you're putting in them, right? They they work for everybody. So I'm like, I'm gonna start going to some TAC events and see how these are received from the from the compound community. And uh after TAC Pennsylvania in 2025, it was like okay, okay, we're going back.

SPEAKER_01 51:40

Yeah, we're doing we're gonna do more of those. Yeah, yeah, that was awesome. That that's where I uh that's where I first saw it. And I remember seeing them last year. This is my third time going. Saw them the first year, and then I was really looking at in the second year, but I think you were out of the green. I wanted to get the green. Oh, yeah, and then uh you had them this year, so I I had to grab it. So awesome. Wicked. Um, before we wrap up here, do you have a hunting story you can share? Hunting story. I'm sure you do, but yeah, can you think of yeah?

SPEAKER_03 52:13

I have I have so many stories. Um, I'll I'll I I'll give you one, like just an honest one. This was from a bunch of years back because uh I started it's so funny how this will humble you so fast. Is like I started going, all right. I I shot five deer this year with the trad bow, and then it was like nine deer in a year with the trad bow. And it like I started in my my streak of putting on perfect shots that didn't turn into all this is a this is a gut shot or whatever, like no rodeos happened. So I was on like this streak of if it was within 20 yards and I drew my bow back at it, like it was it was done. So I started like you know feeling a feeling a little tall poppy syndrome a little bit, right? I'm just like, oh yeah, this is this is great. I'm doing good. So I go into the woods and uh it's it's full blown rut. And I sneak up in a super crunchy day, and I do what I call the squirrel walk on super crunchy days, is you just kind of like put that first foot out and you just with your toes, and then you seat your heel, and then the next foot and you just try to sound like a rummaging squirrel, and it's amazing the deer won't even pick their heads up. You know, if there's deer on their feet as you're coming through these bedding areas, getting tight to the bedding areas, like they won't even pick their head up if the wind's in your face. It's it's such a great tactic, anyhow. Snuck all the way up into this tree stand, this ambush spot, climbed up into the tree, and once I got up there and settled, I look over and there is a really nice buck tending a doe, and the doe is is bedded down, and so he's like defending her. And this little it's like this, I don't know, this nest, if you will, if so tight, but it the diameter of the circle, this bedding area was probably only 30 yards, 35 yards. That's it, and so it's real tight, but I could see it in there. And this buck had three other bucks just circling it like sharks, and and the minute one of them stepped in there, he would charge them out of there and then go back to his dough. And then he had to do this. I watched him do this for an hour, and I'm getting jacked up because sometimes these bucks are on my side of this little bedding area and they're stepping in over here, so he charges at them, makes a couple rubs, and goes back in. Well, he I finally get my opportunity, right? And this is this is me. I'm I'm on a I'm gonna streak, Josh. I'm on a streak, and so this buck step steps out and he's broadside after chasing this little buck around, and I draw back and right over top of his back. Um that's the beautiful thing about these bows, is they're so quiet. Yeah, shot over top of his back. It was a controlled shot. I just I didn't range him, and I just thought he was, you know, obviously further than what he was. And so he kind of stands there. I get another arrow knocked, and now you could you could see in the footage, like that was like the unexpected miss. And now I'm like in panic mode. He has no idea what's happening. He goes back to making his rub. I come back to full draw, and you can see it's a complete blackout arrow, right? I come back to pow as soon as I get back to anchor, that that string goes through my face. He punched it right exactly right underneath him, and then that one that one made him kind of like and he like bounced back a little bit, and then he turns around, he's like looking back at my arrow stick in the ground. He's like, What the heck was that? He starts going towards him, and as you probably know, or most of your listeners know, if they get their nose near your feathers or your or your veins, it's over, like they're they're out of there. And so he's coming back and he's just about to get there. Come the full draw, and I run a good shot, hit him well, and he goes around and I watched him fall over, and I could see my fleshings of my arrow uh through the thicket, like pointing straight up in the arrow. I'm like, oh my god, but yeah, that's uh that's what happens when you get too cocky.

SPEAKER_01 55:51

There is a question that I do. I I could probably talk to you for three hours on here, but I'll I'll uh we'll save it for next time. Sure. Uh depending on how your setup is, but okay. Um when you're in the tree stand, do you take your quiver off your bow? I do not. You do not. I do not. Nope.

SPEAKER_03 56:12

They stay stays on my bow, just like that.

SPEAKER_01 56:16

Welcome to Team Quiver. What uh why why do you do that? Because it drives me insane when I see people do that, and so many people are against me on it, and they say that you know they they shoot better without it and all this other stuff. And I'm like, that is your that is your delivery system right there, your workspace. Why would you take away yeah or risk dropping the things that you might need again? Right. Perfect example is your story, right? Yeah, exactly. You might need to do a follow-up shot or take another shot or whatever. If it's hanging somewhere or in your pack or whatever, you're just oh yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 56:50

What's fall follow-up shots for me is like that. That's the main reason why I run it. Also, these quivers that I use, I use a cellway slide on that slides down over top. It's a rubber like gripper that slides down from the top, so you actually unstring your bow, and you can see that rubber gripper here like finches this, and so it actually dampens your bow, it makes it quieter. And then I also like a heavy mass weight bow. So also shooting it with a heavy mass weight, you got the bull barrel theory, right? Um, so I add additional weights to my bow. I like to beef up the mass weight of it. Um, and then also the follow-up shot, like or sneaking up on something, like if something like you get startled because there's a deer on the path there, like just slow movement to the quiver. You know, you get an arrow on, slide it down there. Like, so many opportunities come from being able to either get your first or sometimes your second arrow back on that quiver without getting detected, or onto your bow without getting detected, and having a bow quiver on just makes all the sense in the world to me. I like I have no idea why people take their bows, bow quivers off their bow. Thank you. Say that one more time. I have no idea why people take their bow quivers off.

SPEAKER_01 57:58

You all heard it. There we go. It's crazy to me. That's awesome. Thank you. You're welcome. Well, I appreciate you coming on here again. I I have a ton of other things I could ask you, and I'm I'm gonna have more questions as I drift towards the Hoyt Satory. Yeah, yeah. I love it. So I'll be hitting you up and definitely watching more of your videos. Um, can you let everybody know how they can find you?

SPEAKER_03 58:19

Yep, yeah, we made it really easy. Just search the push archery Instagram, Facebook, um, the pusharchery.com to see all of our quivers in our online school. We have some online instructional courses behind a paywall, which is really awesome. And then also we have our YouTube channel, the push archery, as well.

SPEAKER_01 58:36

That's wicked. Do you do you notice a difference uh between when kids get into the sport compared to adults? Do they do you find they learn differently?

SPEAKER_03 58:45

Um it it all depends. I mean, kids, kids are are tough because kids are tough, tough to give instruction to because whenever the pressure comes on, like they haven't been through a lot of life experiences. So it's it's hard to get them to you know fight through some of the target panic if they're if they have mental issues. Biomechanics, kids are really easy to coach. It's just kind of like do this, do this again, feel feel what it feels like to do this. You just drive their movements with like get your hand, grab this golf ball off your shoulder as you're shooting, right? And you just say that to them and they just they get it. They get it. Adults are much harder to teach form to because they have like decades of doing something incorrectly, and then you're gonna try to get it out of them within a session or two. That's tough. But uh, adults tend to to take the uh the mental side of of archery coaching better.

SPEAKER_01 59:33

Awesome. All right, great. Thanks again. I appreciate it. We'll get it from you. We'll talk to you soon. Yep.