Maria Skipper Schwenn - A lobbyist and a mother, paving the way!

Season 3 | Episode with Maria Skipper Schwenn 

In this episode of The Wavemakers Podcast, I sit down with Maria Skipper Schwenn, Director of Environmental Regulatory & Public Affairs at Bunker Holding and a long-time advocate for maritime decarbonization, regulation, and collaboration.

Maria has spent over 13 years shaping climate, environmental, and safety policies—representing Danish shipowners, working at the IMO, and serving on multiple boards driving the green shipping transition. Beyond her professional achievements, she is also a proud mother of six, a strong voice for women supporting women, and a believer in the power of collaboration.

We explore:
⚓️ How Maria unexpectedly entered the world of shipping
⚓️ Her role in pivotal IMO moments, from the EEDI adoption to global decarbonization strategies
⚓️ Powerful stories from ship recycling in India to migrant rescues in the Mediterranean
⚓️ How shipping culture is changing with digitalization, new generations of leaders, and more women entering the industry
⚓️ Leadership lessons: balancing toughness with empathy, and believing in yourself even when the going gets tough
⚓️ Maria’s vision for the shipping sector in 2040—and her personal hopes for the future

This is an inspiring conversation about resilience, purpose, and driving impact in one of the world’s most vital industries!

🔔 Don’t forget to like, share, and subscribe for more stories at the intersection of maritime decarbonization and digital transformation.

#Shipping #Decarbonization #Leadership #maritime

Subscribe to our channel and be the first to join future coffee conversations with the maritime change makers!

🔗 Related Resources and Links:
• Follow Gordana Ilic on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gordanailicphd/
• Follow us on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@BetterSea

📩 Have questions or comments? Feel free to reach out via email at gordana.ilic@bettersea.tech

Transcript

Hello and welcome to another episode of The Wavemakers Podcast where we feature the stories of the people leading the change at the intersection of maritime decarbonization and digital transformation. My guest today is truly a trailblazer when it comes to shaping climate, environmental and safety policies. uh she's been involved at the IMO. She's been the voice of Danish ship owners for over 13 years when it comes to these topics. Uh currently she's serving as the director of environmental regulatory and public affairs at Bunker Holding and uh beyond that she's also a board member at numerous organizations when it comes to the transition of green shipping. beyond policy and regulations. She's also a strong advocate for collaboration and women supporting women. And it is my honor today to welcome Maria Skipper Schwenn. Thank you so much, Gordana. I'm really happy to be here. It's been a story of synchronicity how you came here today and I'm really really happy for this episode. Behind all these titles, I wanted to ask you who are you? How would you describe yourself? Well, I am a very dedicated person uh with a background in political science and European studies. So, not the typical uh shipping background and now working in the bunga industry. I'm not a trader either. Um besides that, I'm a mother. I have I'm the mother of three and then I have when I married my husband, he had three kids already. So, we have six in total. Oh, wow. And then I just didn't think I had enough to do in my life. So, I got myself a hunting dog on top of that. So, uh so I would say I'm a political scientist working in doing advocacy in in the shipping sector and then I'm a mother. Those two words uh lobbyist and mother. I don't know how you manage it all, but maybe we'll find out. And what was your journey into shipping? Well, actually that was a bit of a coincidence. See, it's funny. My my last name is Skipper, right? So, I heard a lot, you know, I've been teased a lot about, you know, with that name, right? Um, but it was actually a by coincidence that I ended up in the shipping sector because I started out working in in Brussels in the European Parliament as a political assistant to one of the Danish members of the parliament and then I was going on maternity leave. That was in 2008 and the elections were in the summer of 2009. So I went back to Denmark was on maternity leave and I knew I was you know I was looking for a new job right and that was the only that was during the financial crisis. So I mean jobs were really they were difficult to get and then by coincidence and by luck I hadn't a former colleague of mine from the parliament in Brussels. She was working for the Danish ship owners but got a new job and then she told me she spoke to her boss and like why don't you come by for a cup of coffee and I did and I thought it was just an informal conversation but that end actually ended up being the job interview right uh so that's how I started out by working for for the Danish ship owners in 2009 uh just weeks before the cup 15 uh were was in Copenhagen so that was basically my my journey into shipping So, so by coincidence. Wow. That was an acceleration and then it never stopped. Exactly. But, but I think you know this industry is a club. Either you you you you're there, you know, for a short while and you leave or you stay and you may move around within the industry, but it's it is like a club. So, and I for the moment I couldn't imagine, you know, working in any other industry because this is so this is such a fascinating industry. And what motivates you to push for green transition so much? Where does that come from? Well, um because I can see that there is really a potential here. Um the shipping sector is is you know trans 80% of all goods if you look at this room every you know almost everything 80% of all things in this room uh has been uh on on the sea at some point right and at the same time the sector is is responsible for close to 3% of of global emissions right so there is a huge potential the shipping industry is burning the residual product so the nastiest heavy fuel oil right um and there is the potential uh for really decarboniz decarbonizing uh this sector and that's what what what drives me uh that there is something to to do. Was there any fun story in all these years within maritime sector or some memorable moment that also inspired you? I've had many uh moments to to remember um and if I if I can you know mention a couple of other examples and then come back to to decarbonization because I was also uh in charge of envir environment and and and security at Danish shipping. So first of all I would say I would like to mention the back in 2015 um some of our members were uh recycling uh vessels and as you know most of the world fleet is is being scrapped uh in India, Pakistan and Bangladesh right uh a lot of criticism it got got to the media uh Danish politicians the minister for environment got involved and that's when we decided that Danish shipping because we had also been told that there were actual improvements taking place in certain yards in India along the Alang beach in India. So we decided to do a a study uh a study trip basically to go and visit and see with our own eyes. This was before the EU ship recycling regulation was adopted. Um, but in order to actually see it with our own eyes. So, we went together with a couple of members and that was a really huge experience. I've seen a vessel being uh beached. Uh, I have a video. Basically, we were standing on the beach and this huge tanker just approached and it didn't stop. It was like at a certain point you took, you know, you you just started to move backwards because this huge vessel just were was just landed on the beach. but to visit and speak with those yard owners, a younger new generation that were so engaged in making environmental improvements, improvements and safety for the workers, etc. That was really really inspiring. Another example was when uh MKen the tanker vessel um operating in the Mediterranean had come across uh a number of people in distress uh and the small boat sinking. was migrants at sea. Um, and they did they did the duty of what seafares uh do. They pick up people in distress and they rescue them. But the thing was they got caught in the middle of the political uh deadlock between the Mediterranean countries. So they couldn't disembark these um I think it was like 37 pe 30 27 people ended up being on board Mkuchen for 37 days and it was really into there. I was also deeply involved in in in finding a solution. Uh and in the end it ended up being an Italian NGO vessel uh with the medical assistant that went and did a medical checkup uh on the people on board. And if and based on that evaluation, they um uh asked the Italian authorities uh for permission to call an Italian port. This was an Italian flag vessel, the NGO vessel. So therefore, Italy could not deny them. um entry into the port and that's how the migrants they finally uh got off and and and the situation were were were ended. That was one of the that was one of also a moment where where that I really still you know keep keep in my heart um because that were you know real people uh we were talking about the crew on board and these uh these migrants. And then last but not least uh when it comes to to decarbonization uh I still remember uh the day in 2011 at IMO when the EEDI the energy efficiency design index uh was adopted. That was the first measure setting uh energy efficiency requirements for for newvilles. Um I still remember the atmosphere in in in the plenary. It was it was it was really a special moment. The same when the 2018 strategy uh GSG strategy was adopted. It was uh it was a very very special moment and I really hope we're going to have the same uh kind of atmosphere uh on April April uh 11 uh in a few in a few months time when when hopefully we have the the approval of the up the midterm measures. That one is is going to be quite interesting. How does it feel also in these rooms at these moments? Is it like the tension, the excitement or some are scared of what would be the final outcome? There is a there it's a very special atmosphere. You know all the IMO delegations these are you know hardworking civil servants but they have been many of them have been have been there for years right? So they know each other right? So even though they may disagree and they come with different positions etc they all have a mutual respect for each other. So there is also a very you know nice and and and and friendly atmosphere almost like a little bit of an imo family right. So you would also hear jokes, you know, especially, you know, the chair would would, you know, would would would would throw a joke, you know, and people the whole room would start laughing and and, you know, but of course, you know, when it really gets down to to okay, now we're we're closing in on a deal, you can also see some some some tension and and and some, you know, there need bold steps need to needs to be made um in order for for a decision to to to be made. Um but it is a very special it is very special moment uh when people are looking around and know yes we we have an agreement and and people will start you know clapping and and yeah yeah it it must be very special to observe how all these conversations negotiations actually end up affecting and shaping the world and all the three stories uh indicate of how much it means to you also to drive impact act and to see it and to feel it. And yes, I think you're one of the few that actually gets the chance to be on both sides, like to negotiate for something, but then also to have that feeling of uh seeing it play out in real life. Yeah. Yeah, it's true. It's true. I mean, now especially, I mean, when I left Danish shipping, I wanted to get closer to the commercial side of things. I wanted to to learn more. So I've been on a steep learning curve for for the last 18 months. Um but but but really now I can see you know I can see bunker holding the number of of bofuel uh deliveries the number of ports where we're now have done the ground work so that we're able to actually deliver it takes a lot of work. I actually didn't know that before. Right. So for me it's been a huge learning experience to be able and and and and a true pleasure to be able to on the one one hand see the regulatory framework and then actually see it play out in practice. Right. Yeah. Yeah. With regards to that and being able to look back into the past 10, 15, 20 years, how do you see things changing? How did the culture change also with this? Yeah, that's a really that's a really good question. I would say things have really evolved, you know, since 2009. I think the pace at which the regulatory measures are are being adopted and implemented has really picked up, you know, um but you also see a younger generation now taking over as as CEOs and and and in the boardrooms. So there is a different uh approach. I mean I think it's fair to say I don't think I'm going to offend anybody by saying that that shipping is a quite conservative sector. Uh but that is really changing as well and you see a lot of um very courageous moves you see startups you see digitalization etc. And you see not the traditional shipping people you see I used to you know tongue and cheek say you know the the the guys with the funny glasses and the jeans you know because it's a different kind of people. It's it's it that they that they um that they take uh on board now. It's not necessarily the traditional shipping uh people, right? They need people that can do digitalization. They need people that can do cyber security uh things like that because in order to stay relevant uh for the future, this industry needs to also to disrupt uh itself itself in in in in certain ways. Yeah. They they need different profiles now differently. Exly. Exactly. And that makes it, you know, that makes it that makes it Yeah. That makes it funny, right? Just at MK, I mean, I think and again, I think I'm not going to offend anybody by saying that MK has, you know, been a very traditional company. And when I started in 2009, you know, even though I was working at Danish shipping, but, you know, we all knew that, I mean, MK, they had a dress code, you know, quite a conservative one, but that has changed. like they don't wear a tie anymore and and and things like that. You know, jeans are allowed and it's it's not that they can't dress up or that they don't, but it's just been, you know, different profiles and different people into into the into the shipping industry. That that does change things, right? Yes. And I have experienced that too. how uh there is now the culture of embracing who you are and how you feel more and showing up as you are at work. Exactly. And I have joined also in in that uh new age environment where we could just come in sneakers. There were people in sneakers as well and I would hear stories from some of the colleagues who have been there for a longer time. uh how it was and how it was quite rigid and uh very much defined and how that is now totally different because of this intersection of shipping and tech and by merk merging the two the culture has changed because it had to accommodate very different profiles of people. Yeah. You know better than that you your ex MK so you know you know of course. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And how did the industry shape you? What have you learned from the industry? I've learned about, you know, good business human. Uh I think that's really that's really uh what defines this industry, you know. Uh people can be tough. Uh but they the ones that are really good are also the ones that are really you know the good guys, the good ladies that you know they have an eye for, you know, the all their employees, you know, and take the time to uh to say good morning and ask how people are doing and actually mean it. You know, I I I sense that, you know, that's what it takes to be successful within within this industry, right? That does not mean that you you you can't be tough because I think you also have to be it's a tough business, right? But but I think really um it it it good people is what defines uh the shipping sector. I find it also interesting and I wonder often times how to balance those two. how to be human centric and empathic and able to notice slight changes in people while also being very businessdriven and uh professional and to have your boundaries. Yes, I'm trying to learn that balance more and more and that is that is you know that's the that's the difficulty about being a good leader not necessarily a manager but a but a leader that's when you can do both you know be both the you need to to set the course and give you know guidance and direction but at the same time also have the genuine empathy for the people around you right yeah and and and and be able to read them and be able to give the best working conditions and be able to see the difference in in your the people in your team. Of course, I'm not talking about, you know, a thousand company with a thousand employees. That's, you know, that's when you have people, you know, below you that will then be be leaders as well, right? But the people in in your core team, you really need to be able to tell the differences and be able to identify how to create the best working conditions for this person, how to make people strive, right? Yeah. Now that you're saying that, I'm also reflecting on the similarities of being able to identify these changes in human behavior and get the most out of this. And these are usually nuances and it's usually many months before something is brought up as okay this is something to work on and at the same time that same skill I would assume is uh very useful in the business context and being able to detect small changes in the market dynamics and to predict that of course. Yeah. But actually one one other thing you know when when when you said you know what has changed you know throughout the years that's the number of women in this industry. When I started um I was very often the only woman in the room. I was also the youngest. So for you know quite a few years I always felt that I had to be you know just a little bit more prepared than everybody else because you know I I had this clear feeling of I had to do a little bit more to to prove myself. Maybe it was just you know my own imagination because I was never been I was never been you know put down as not because not because I didn't you know do my job. Well, I've definitely seen some I've experienced some sexist remarks and stuff like that, but but just the fact when you enter a room, right, it does take a little you need to do a little bit more of that, you know, when when you were the only woman and you're the youngest. So, when I became a leader of of the team at Danish shipping, I was also the youngest and I was the woman and I was the one not with the technical background of this team. Um so that was also you know a challenge that that I had to to to work my way through. Um yeah yes I would assume the even the internal pressure maybe it's not even external but internal pressure to be able to rise the bar and to be able to steer the way. Exactly. Uh for people who are maybe domain experts and then trying to make an informed decision about that and how to guide them as well. Exactly. and and dealing with some very technical subjects such as decarbonization and environment etc. Like you know of course there would always be people in the room that were either you know naval architects or for former seafares etc. So you know just just just you know that always gave me a little bit of like okay I definitely have to be you know prepared like Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And now I will take you to a lighter course and I will ask you the question that we just discussed ahead and you said I have no idea what I will say but which ship would you be if you were a ship and why? Okay. Well, I would be an offshore support vessel. Hm. So an offshore support vessel uh is a vessel that is basically supporting the offshore sector obviously um but it can be it can be a variety of of of it can carry out variety of functions right but I think that's really uh defines me I can I can take on a lot of different tasks but it needs to have a purpose and an offshore vessel has the purpose of building the infrastructure in the the the wind uh farms, etc. Uh and and uh of course also oil oil and gas exportation, but but but definitely the purposedriven um purpose-driven vessel and that's how I see how that's how I see an offshore support vessel. This makes total sense now when I when you shared all these stories and also when I know uh your background. Yes. It's also a lot about the community and driving the change from that side. Is there any advice that you have gotten in the past that you would remember often when you were charting your way and your career in maritime? Yeah. um to always believe in yourself even when the going gets tough and you may fall but you but you'll rise again. That was a a wise person that once told me that. Um and yes when you when you deal with uh tough political um uh negotiations uh and you know in a costly on a costly pathway decarbonization that and there might be set setbacks right you don't give up you you continue to to to believe and sometimes you know I joke about you know when people are asking me so do you think we're going to get an IMO deal and stuff like that right I always like you know you may call me naive but I do believe that we will get a deal. If I didn't believe it, I I wouldn't I wouldn't be able to stand working with this if I didn't believe that it was actually possible. Right. Yes. That is probably one of the unique traits for everyone who is pushing the bar and being that front runner. Yeah. And again, it wouldn't come from an authentic place and with strength if it wasn't truly what you believed in. Yes. That I will remember now this advice. I also sometimes think I don't know what I'm doing but it feels right and I would still do it if if no one cared and if nothing would happen. So I guess that's the right way. Exactly. And sometimes you know believe in your intuition. Yeah. You know that's uh Yeah. And if and you will make mistakes. We all do. Yes. And don't be afraid of making mistakes. You know, it's better to to to make a mistake and then rectify and and make up for it than than not to do, you know, not to act. Mhm. I have had some moments also in the previous year or two when I thought okay this was at that moment it thought okay maybe this is mistake or this didn't turn out the way I planned and and then later when time passes I realized that was so good that it didn't happen it was not a wrong it was just a wrong direction for me maybe it's good for someone else but this was steering me down my own path and even when it came to this episode how somehow I had a translation I had no idea what I would do or if I would do it and then you tell me, "Okay, I'm free." Yeah. Again, sometimes we don't control things, but Exactly. They come together when it's Exactly. And things happen for a reason. Yes. And you may not realize that, you know, when it happens, but then later there everything happens for a reason. Yes. with those optimistic eyes and uh looking into the future of everything being possible. How would you paint that future? I think we have definitely we will see a different sector in 2040. We will see a uh a shipping sector ship or transport transport by sea uh with a uh less emissions. Um we will not we will be on our way to to net zero. We will not be there yet but we will definitely have you know different uh vessel types engines uh etc. There will be more of the the the methanol of the ammoniad driven vessels um underwater. There will also still be traditional uh vessels underwater but maybe we'll have you know um technology that will do the carbon capture you know things like that. I think there will be we will have several pathways to to uh to decarbonizing uh the sector and 2040 we will still have you know a lot of a variety a variety of these paths still uh functioning and then they will slowly be narrowed down towards uh 50 then I think we will also see a lot more of a digitalized uh industry uh a lot more seamless industry than we have today you know a lot of paperwork and stuff like that will be abolished completely changed. Yeah, exactly. Um and then I hope that we see more women in this industry uh both uh onshore and on board the vessels. Uh but I definitely think we will see a strong uh maritime sector and seaborn trade will remain the the the backbone of of world trade. Mhm. I'm now very curious of how it all comes together because we are seeing some of the pilots and I'm curious to see how different companies will choose their sets of experiments and then as you said eventually they will pick the most uh efficient cost effective ones but I think it's a fun time in history for the next 1015 years to see combinations. Yes. Yes. That's also what I, you know, when I meet newcomers to the industry, I'm like, you've joined, you know, at the right time because things are really picking up now. This, these are really decisive years that we're we're looking at, right? Mhm. How would you like your future years to be like and to shape uh when it comes to the industry or maybe not maybe privately? Um well, you know, those two things will have to be, you know, in a balance, right? Uh so uh so uh privately you know I I you know I love my family uh and my kids and and uh of course you know as they grow uh they grow up you know I would love to take them with me sometimes when I when I travel because I do travel uh a lot for work. So so uh hopefully that will be possible. um then I hope that we can continue you know uh contributing to the decarbonization by being the the biggest uh bunker supplier in in the world. I think we really have a role to play and also by shaping uh the regulation going forward. So for me, I really hope that I can contribute by um by helping bunker holding by sitting on the board of the international bunker um industry association, IBIA, that I can help also giving the bunker industry a stronger voice in this uh whole decization process because it's such an important part of the maritime value chain. Um, so hopefully, you know, with the things that I'm focusing on, I can play my part in in um in shaping the future. And when it comes to your kids, Yeah. are they curious about what you do or about the industry overall? Do they see themselves in it? Yeah, they they they're very curious. You know, they've built the they have the MK Lego vessels and they've built them and taken them apart several times, actually. No, they they are, you know, and and and and and my oldest she once did a school project, you know, on like to explain, you know, the decarbonization part, you know, a very of course very simplified way, but they are interested. They are interested and and and also fascinated by it. Yeah. So sometimes when we, you know, cross the the great belt bridge uh in Denmark um where all the big vessels will have to go out from the Baltic Sea, right? uh you know we sometimes use the the the path the vessel tracker you know on the phone so when we cross you know the bridge you know my kids would be like oh what what kind of vessel is that so yeah things like that but definitely they are they are fascinated I don't know if they're going to go into the to the industry right but uh but they they are curious and especially when I go travel you know they always ask you know what I'm actually doing so yeah yes maybe soon you can tag them along maybe I interview one of them in the future. Then you will have to Well, the oldest he can speak English, but otherwise it would be difficult. My Danish is really bad. You got tents, aren't I? Just kidding. Oh, I can I can uh read better than I can speak. Yeah, it's also a very difficult language, but you know, am I you're you're Serbian, right? Yes. Okay. I wouldn't even try to speak Serbian. I also play this game with Max like guessing which vessel is which like from a distance and then we actually check and verify who's right and who's wrong. Yeah, I think we can slowly wrap it up and I always give the opportunity to my guests to be the interviewer as well. So you're also free to take over the torch and ask them anything. Okay. So Cordana, what what's the best advice that you that you ever had? I had this label. I don't know where I found it or if someone told me, but I put it on my room door since I was very young. And it said everything you want, you can do it because you can do whatever you want. But what it means and how I understand is that if some thought or some idea came to you, it came and you were able to conceptualize that because it's meant for you and because you have the abilities to push it through. And this is something that I just hold in the back of my mind always. And when things get tough, I think to myself, okay, this came to me because I can do it. And it's hard and sometimes it sucks. But if it wasn't there, it wouldn't come to me. And uh yeah, sometimes it's it's challenging to have that responsibility with yourself, I think. Yeah. But at the end it is also very rewarding and I I like to remember that when it actually uh materializes itself. It can be various things but yeah I feel that I have that connection with my younger self through that statement. Wow. So yeah. So now I'm I'm I'm working for you know a huge company right? You're in a startup. Well, I don't know if you still call if you call yourself a startup, but I think we're still a startup. Okay. Okay. So, and you you're you're two people, right? Well, now we have 12 more people. Okay. Okay. Okay. So, okay. Let's let's rewind. I'm gonna So, but mostly people think it's just Max and me. I think because we are most often the faces of Yeah, exactly. So, that's what I thought. Okay. So, okay. But I'm I'm working for a huge company, right? Mhm. And you are a small although you're not just Max and you you are 12 more people but still a small well still with you know startup. What's your do you are you ever scared like you you jumped from you know a big nice job merk uh everything into starting your own. Are you ever scared? Oh, every day I go through these cycles every day. Like um I wonder sometimes like why am I doing this to myself? Like why can I not just be happy with a corporate and organized and you know cushioned life and uh but I accepted that it's my nature. So I have these thoughts, I hear them out and I also know that while I was at MEK and while I was also driving uh innovation uh portfolio efforts, I always in myself I always felt like I should be doing my own thing just because I'm so impatient and I want to be at the forefront of changes and I always admired the entrepreneurs that I was speaking to and I remember then that moment and then I justify my uh life of adventures. Uh but then at the same time because I have so much freedom and we can switch many hats, Max and I are pretty much covering a bit of everything. of course with teams but we still feel like we have to be on top of our game when it comes to every single segment of it and to grow also at the same time in all these different areas that we had no clue about but now we have to build some sort of expertise um I mean it goes from financial to commercial to business development to marketing efforts and onwards right uh so that is challenging and this is the times when I think like why am I doing this to myself and are we crazy that We've put so much into it and then again I remember like okay this is your nature and it feels good and it does feel good having that freedom to choose what you want how you want it and to execute and to change your mind tomorrow and to change the course because you feel that something needs to be changed that really resonates with my nature so it's a tradeoff but it feels like it's been five years it's been so much and such different experiences and I feel that I've learned much more about shipping through it because we were able to engage with different sizes of shipping companies with different stakeholders in the maritime industry and to really try to understand um the impact of regulations from their perspectives and through that also by building empathy and understanding for them. uh understanding why things are the way they are and why certain things are a legacy. Found much more appreciation for it even being traditional as people label it rigidness that people associate with industry is because of that because there are lives at stake. Uh so it's been a very enriching experience. I'm not sure I could do it but I definitely I I admire you. I think that's it's a really it's really courageous. Uh I'm not sure I could do it myself but I have to say that. Yeah. I mean how we started it it was just there was no rational thinking behind it. How do you then you know separate you know your your your work life and and and and private life that that that doesn't just all flow together or I don't know we don't it's all jumbled up. No it once you accept it you just like it. Where are you in in in in five years from now, 10 years from now? I hope we successfully materialize uh our vision for the company and we really from the beginning we really wanted this end to end maritime decarbonization um scope. I'm trying not to reveal too much about strategy, but I hope we get to build it up to to to make our vision happen. And then I hope uh we successfully exit and I get a dog shelter. I'm doing this to sponsor a dog shelter. All right. All right. But you have a dog now, don't you? Yes, I I have a dog. We actually So I had a dog. My parents had a dog. That was my first dog. And on this journey, Max and I also adopted a dog from Portugal. And uh now somehow every few months we rescue another dog and help rescue it. Um so yeah, I think both of us are very weak when it comes to animals. So if it was up to us, she would have 20, but we're trying to think how our adventurous life is not always the best circumstance for many animals at once. So now we just like help them and foster them for a short time and help them get a new home hopefully. But I really enjoy that and I I love u it doesn't matter if it's dogs or any other animals. But I just appreciate that uh candid connection and the unconditional uh love from a Yeah. from a dog or an animal. Yeah. uh and they just feel and heal and and it's such a beautiful relationship as well to also develop that trust. So yeah, that's one of my future goals and everything else. I don't know because I never thought I would be in shipping and here I am. So I'm letting some room for sub surprises. Definitely. I think there's definitely some surprises in store for you because you're brave. Well, with that, maybe we can um complete this episode and I hope everyone else enjoyed it and found something for themselves or will in the future and I look forward to doing another one in some time and seeing how things have changed. Thank you so much. Well, thank you so much, Guran. I really enjoyed being here and a really interesting uh conversation. I'm definitely also going to take that with me. Thank you.