From Oil to Innovation: Dr. Sanjay C Kuttan on Purpose, Pivots & Decarbonization

In this episode of The Wavemakers Podcast, Dr. Sanjay C. Kuttan — former CTO & CSO of the Global Centre for Maritime Decarbonisation (GCMD) — reflects on a 33-year journey spanning science, oil & gas, policy, and innovation. He shares lessons on authenticity, faith, and leadership, revealing how staying true to yourself and embracing change can shape entire industries.

A conversation about courage, reflection, and the quiet power of being the “tugboat” that drives progress.

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Transcript

[Music] Hello and welcome to another episode of The Wavemakers Podcast where we talk about the stories of the maritime decrimization leaders, what it feels to be them and to drive this transition. My today's guest has worn pretty much every possible hat, when it comes to innovation and decarbonization. His resume is basically a snapshot of all possible roles you can have: from research, to consultancy, to being the front runner and setting up research centers, working with authorities and then paving the way for the whole industry. His latest role, I think, let him pretty much shape the maritime decarbonization for the world and leave such a big uh print on it as the former CTO and CSO of the Global Center for Maritime Decarbonization (GCMD) and now he's stepping into a role of reflecting on his journey and guiding the next generations. With all of that that would take me an hour to tell you about. He also found time to be a painter, a writer, a poet. And his first poem was about chicken rice. So today we will learn who is this uh passionate and purposeful leader behind all these titles. Please help me welcome Dr. Sanjay C Kuttan. Good morning. Thank you so much. Geeez, you did a lot of research a little bit. I've been following uh you and I I really love when you share your poems. I think that's very brave. Thank you. And uh I also interviewed others and they recommended that I speak to you. And I'm so happy that the stars aligned and that we are here today. So in your own words, beyond all these hats you wore over the past 33 years, how would you describe yourself? I guess as an individual, I I would describe myself um in a way that I've always tried to be authentic, uh real to my own who I want to be. So uh you get what you see no matter which arena whether you know it's at a pub or in church or in the park or in the office you know uh I'm the same person you know I don't I have only one face and I try work I work very hard to make sure that people will always recognize me regardless where you I am so I try to be authentic uh all the time uh you know So, so people know how to deal with me no matter the scenario. You know, I think that's very brave and uh that's quite a role model uh for the rest because especially when you work in um let's say heavy asset industries. I think that's especially challenging and over the past 33 years I think the world has changed to become a little bit more open and emphatic. But how do you see that changing? How do you see uh that path of kind of going through these different industries with the authentic self? My my last job together with GCMD I was that was my eighth job. So I pivoted seven times. um you know I'm I started off as a pharmacologist and I did genetics uh research at um the university and then I pivoted into Exxon Mobile uh to do field engineering. Um so I think with every pivot I began to believe in myself uh and I had the courage to to try new things. So I mean every pivot was a very different job that I move into. Uh trying to leverage a bit of what I had but also constantly trying to discover new boundaries for myself. It was always not an easy decision. Uh every pivot has not been an easy decision because I've always entered a new area. Uh but I I saw it as a an exciting possibility of discovering myself and also learning. I love learning. I love learning new things and that's also partly why I tend to pivot because I reach a point of saturation and I want to wake up excited every morning uh to go to work. Uh so even when I was with Exxon Mobile for 12 years which is my longest stent I did six different jobs in Exxon Mobile which were very different. Uh so I always want to constantly be on the edge and learning. I don't mind being at the bottom of the learning curve. Um I remember one of the interviews I had my first interview with Exxon Mobile before I got the job and um the hiring uh director said to me he said but you know you're not an engineer you know you're a pharmacologist you know uh what are you going to do in field engineering which is you know with engines and lubricants which is tribology you know this is like completely something you never studied and then he said to I said to him I said is it rocket science science and he said, "What do you mean?" I said, "No, is it rocket science? Do you need to be a rocket scientist to learn all the stuff that you just mentioned?" And he said, "Well, not really." He said, "Well, if it's not rocket science, I can learn it, you know." So, I and then I put in the effort to learn, right? But that gave me the sense of uh if I really want to do it, I can do this pivots, you know? And that's since then is every pivot has given me more and more confidence uh that uh I can take on new things even though I I don't have the degree or the qualification for it. So that's that's been my journey over the last 33 years actually. I'm sure that even when it came to rocket science with that attitude you would be able to take it up. don't know. I heard rocket science is a bit more complicated the math at least but then you you will leverage the other superpower bringing communities together and now with computers and AI maybe it's much easier the gap is much slower closer you know so then uh from that skepticism you actually reached a point in your life when you were also setting up the re energy research center right what drove your curiosity when you were moving from oil and Yes. Towards pretty much driving energy transition and decarbonization. Yeah. I mean uh let's put it this way. It wasn't a conscious choice. It was a conscious choice to leave oil and gas, but it wasn't a conscious choice to to start working on um something else to drive uh the energy transition. It was an opportunity that presented itself. Right. uh when I was in university the group of us were already quite conscious about climate change and things like that you know so we actually I was then heading up the post-graduate uh society in N US uh and we used we had this huge seminar on the ailing planet which is really talking about climate change and uh sulfurification of the air you know through emissions and things like that um so that consciousness was already budgeoning in my university days. But you know those days we were accused of green peace wannabe and you know um but when I pivoted from Exxon mobile was not because I wanted to get involved with cleaner energy. It was I was tired uh 12 years I uh I was not learning anymore. Uh I had a disconnect with the value system of the organization. So I wanted something more true to myself. So you know and I applied for McKenzie and company and I got into Mckenzie uh and I love the consulting uh area and in fact I joined Mckenzie consulting with the oil and gas industry right uh but I used that to try and make and address the issues that they had at the day but I think the process of learning through tools and models that Mckenzie is really good at was a great addition to my own cap capability. So I learned as much uh there as well. So every pivot happens to bring me closer to cleaner energy. Then after that I went to the energy market authority and uh then when I was working at the energy market authority I had an opportunity to kickstart the electric vehicle program in Singapore to kickstart the renewable uh installation at Pulao Ubin and get into it smart grids and smart buildings, you know. So, you know, it just slightly I guess kept moving closer to close and closer to cleaner stuff, you know, after I joined DNV and then I was heading heading up the clean technology center. So I slowly got into it by just you know maybe by God's grace or you know that you know the stars were aligned that you know this is where I would eventually end up in sustainability you know and that a lot of that was also um building in the environment where that was not that much knowledge about the topic. Correct. It was really early days uh and uh there was definitely an ambition and desire to make use of energy better. So energy efficiency was really big and it should be and it still is uh you know but it was a desire to be better use of our resources right energy efficiency is just not about decarb it's about better uses of our resources and and I think that that that era was you know really building and technology was slowly catching up you know and that this digital world started coming up and industry 4.0 zero started happening. So it really kind of drove uh that whole transition a lot faster. Mhm. And uh which of these did you enjoy the most? Oh, technically I enjoyed all of them. I've enjoyed every part of my journey. It was a right moment. Right moment, right time for me. Uh no regrets. I've never regretted any move and I've never regretted uh any move into and I've never regretted any move out of. Right. Uh um yeah. So I've I'm always looking forward to the next uh what what I can contribute to the equation, you know, what I can help uh um and and I love working with the youth uh because they are also very hungry to do the right thing. uh I don't have that many platforms to work with uh uh younger people but when it does happen I'm always I'll always volunteer you know I always uh love talking to young people and you know sharing my little bit of my perspective on how things should work you know I think they complement that drive into action and the new things and uh kind of like fastpaced process and progress what do you think is your superpower. My superpower? Yes. Um, if I had to be completely honest, I think my super I'm a I'm I'm religious, so I think my superpower has been always believing in God. Uh, no matter what happens, I will always be okay. You know, I think it's the patience on in the faith and believing. Um so I think that assurance gives me my internal confidence that I can rise above anything. Mhm. So the confidence doesn't come from my past but I think comes from something greater than I am that gives me that ability to like yeah it's not that I don't get anxious it's not that I don't get depressed or you know it's it's not that right but you know that no matter how whatever setbacks that you can get through this and that keeps me focusing on forward rather than looking at backwards and saying oh should I have done this or should I make that decision decision you know I'm thinking of what is the next decision I should be making that is the right decision you know I always used to tell my team you know we we we we're trying to cater to all the different dynamics and sometimes it's good to understand it but your constant must be always you must have a clear idea what is the right thing to do right and then if you have that you try and make that work as close as possible to making sure the right thing gets done, right? And I think that's important. So, it's a it's um it it allows you to focus and never regret any decision because you know and believe that was the right thing to do, you know. Mhm. I can very much relate to this uh because I I use my emotions uh also as a compass and like I do some leaps cuz I also have pivoted etc. But I do it when kind of like internally I'm totally okay with that decision. It doesn't have to be rationally logical at all. But once I do that then I know that my full self was in it and I never had regrets because I know that for my body for my soul that was the right decision and it took me to something else and then whatever the process looked like it was my learning journey so then it's okay like that was a part of my growth but I can also relate to what you said like trusting in that cushion that no matter what happens you will be fine. I mean I come from Serbia. I grew up through the wars and like we were fine. And my mom was telling me during that period also many people lost jobs and she was walking like oh my god what will I do? I have this kid and okay like the situation is getting crazy and she said as I was wandering down the street thinking how will I like tell people and family someone walks out of a car Yena I was just looking for you and I need you. I have this job. I I thought of you and I saw you and and she told me this story to think like think somehow align and just trust yourself and trust the process. And I think for me at least that was kind of why I was brave to also like switch countries and pivot and uh trust that inner compass. Yeah. But maybe it just works out when we do that. Yeah. Yeah. I know my my friend Desh a very close friend of mine um he wrote a book called inner alignment and it's basically that core concept and once you're in align internally you know mind spirit and soul you know you know exactly what you want to do with your life then that gives you that ability to push through the hard times pushing through a good time is is easy right but pushing through the hard times that takes a lot of internal strength right and I think I don't think I'm there but I I believe I if I keep focusing on making sure I don't dis create any dissonance uh in that inner alignment or that confidence or that belief you know uh with everything I have and that's why being authentic is important right uh wearing only one having only one face allows you to have that uh internal alignment cuz otherwise you're grappling should I be person A, person B, person C, it becomes schizophrenic, right? Yeah, I think that's exhausting. I would forget kind of like what which role did I play? What happened? And I know that now with this conversation that you are someone who you said I think in one of the interviews you're always aware of the surrounding and kind of sensing what is happening but also that is where you draw your inspiration from and keep the nuggets observations to then put it into poems that you write. Uh can you share a bit of of that? like how does that process work like with kind of doing uh roles professionally that often ask you to be very pragmatic? If I reflect on the question and I reflect on my life, you know, over uh especially during my working life, I think it became very apparent in my early days when I started working. Um I would spend when I finished the day, I would spend reflecting on the conversations I had, how I made people feel during those conversations. uh you know and I would always go back and apologize the next day to a person which if I felt that my words weren't right you know I always try to remember what did I say to that person how did that make the person feel but when I started doing this I found myself also reflecting on the day's work you know what did I achieve what what went wrong what I need to focus on so I was taking a step back and breathing a bit and you you know and just reflecting and I think that consciousness kept feeding that you know that that whole behavior of uh self-consciousness and kept feeding on itself that made me more and more conscious of the world that I operated in right so it's not just it's it is the practicalities of work is also very important right to have that time to take a take a deep breath and say okay what what happened today and things. The challenge today is sometimes we don't have we don't okay we don't have the time we don't take the time because we're constantly being connected. Mhm. Uh and the the challenge is being connected with the external world constantly means we're sometime disconnecting from ourselves which is far more important to be connected to. if we want to start understanding ourselves to push ourselves through difficulties and you know new boundaries. So, we need to always remember to connect to ourselves. And I think poetry allows me to do that because I'm forcing myself to reflect on the world I seen, the the sounds that uh I hear, the words that other people uses, the visuals I see on TV. I I mean, I've written poems watching a movie since suddenly I realized that that means so much. I've now forgotten about the movie. You know, I I might be still staring at it, but my mind is now in a different world trying to write a poem about that that you know that moment that the movie showed, you know. Yeah. Yes. Your inner self is calling you for a debrief. Exactly. You know, I uh I do write poems, but I'm not brave like you to let them out into the world. Some have been out uh by my former professors but I also find it as uh and I don't do it I think as often like they kind of exist somewhere eventually find their way but I found that that is a way of me communicating to myself because as you said like you start doing something the message pops out drives you do this and do this and it's so easy to to get diluted in all these external wants. Yes. And especially if you try to be there for others and like if you are if communities are important then that's especially difficult I think and it's so good to have uh something that like bodies are so smart you know they always find a channel like okay the emotion thing okay come back the inspiration come back okay so now kind of taking the journey and the yeah Like let's say we are entering a port and you see many different ships and which one would be you? Which ship would be yourself? Oo that's an interesting question.

I would be the tugboat. Mhm. I would be the tugboat. That would be I mean that's the first board that came into my mind as I was reflecting on your question. It's there. It makes sure things happen safely. Uh it has more power uh in it than people uh imagine it to be because it's a small vessel. Uh but it's so super important. It has a role. Uh and it's a role that it's always hidden. You know, it's not people don't talk about it, right? you know, I'm not big for limelights or, you know, uh, things like that, but personally, I want to get stuff done. Uh, and if I can enable it and, you know, and the 24,000 TU gets all the credit, fine, right? But, you know, if I was the little tugboat that pushed it along in it safe journey into port, out of the port, into the into the birth, right? I would be a happy camper, right? So, you know, yeah. So, maybe I'm I'm the tugboat. It really resonates well with what we shared because they're so nimble, right? So, you can learn how maneuver, okay, get the job done. He's got speed and he's got power, right? Yes. I find it very impressive. I don't know how this little boats can move so much, but yeah. Okay. And uh when you now reflect back and you said you really like working with younger people, what would be your advice to someone who's totally new and wants to do something let's say in in maritime decarbonization industry how to map their journey and find themselves in it? Yeah. So I I I mean the first thing is to ask yourself what's your motivation, right? uh the the challenge always is uh buzzwords and getting caught caught up right so I think being very clear in understanding yourself uh because the maritime sector has so much to offer uh there's so many different parts that one can contribute to the maritime sector right so before you go and decide which door to open in the maritime sector I think it's really understanding yourself first and why you why you want to do what you want to do because the journey is not going to be is not going to be all smooth sailing right it's you're going to go through storm so that inner alignment and understanding yourself is going to be important and I think for a young person to to have that level of maturity and consciousness to understand themselves is also a bit a bit ask right so you can't expect that but I think the journey must begin from there right that you begin to to put in place the ability to learn about yourself as much as you're going to learn about the environment that you're going to be operating in. Uh once you understand your strengths and your passion, be it law or be it operations or be it digitalization or be it data or be it uh working with the crew, you know, providing uh uh uh safety protocols or even a listening ear like you know the missions to seafares, right? What is it that energizes you as a person? And then understanding that will then allow you to choose the plethora of work that's out there that supports the maritime industry. There is no bigger job than and another job. All these jobs are important. If they're not important, they won't exist. They will be naturally carved away or made redundant. But they exist because they are they're like a huge jigsaw puzzle. Right? Every piece is going to be important to make maritime work. So you got to decide which piece you want to be. Right? Uh and sometimes we need to be honest with ourselves. Is it status I'm looking for? Is it money I'm looking for? And if you're not honest with yourself, then you be you have a dissonance with your inner alignment, right? because you want to look good but actually you're actually motivated by something else right so being true to yourself right and know you know every job I took in my seven pivots I always took a pay cut it was more important for me to enter something that I was going to be excited because I always know that eventually the money will come right but the opportunity is very rare to that a window opens right so I think knowing that what really is important for you right if money is important there's no shame in that but is to be honest with yourself then you choose the right job to make sure that it satisfies that internal honesty and maritime industry is really very diverse and it is there's a spot for everyone but it's also as you mentioned intense and I can only imagine that if you're not fully in there like it can really run you down very quickly because it never stops. It's very global and I think that pace although people think it's very slow but actually in the background it's things are moving everywhere all the time and that pace can really uh make you face your own self quickly. But that's the beauty of it because it it kind of takes you to who you are and what you believe and stand for uh so fast. So and and now that uh let's say you have been quite a instrumental part I believe in shaping the maritime decarbonization for the industry with driving many initial pilots and setting it from zero to one. How do you see it shaping towards 2050? It's tough. Mhm. I I don't think I I think I I like um you know there's this whole idea of smart goals you know uh um and I like big hairy audacious goals. I like being stretched. I remember I had a team in DMV and we there was a fallout number and in the end we had to we had to grow the business by 700%. And everyone was all my whole team was like, "Come on, boss." You know, it's it's going to be impossible, you know. I said, "Yeah, but you know what it makes us begin to do?" It helps us start thinking out of the box. If we really want to get to 700%. What else? What do we need to do differently? If we had a smart goal that is achievable, blah blah blah, and everything, you know, it could be business as usual. Mhm. Right. But big hairy audacious goals makes us rethink how we do things. And I think that's IMO's 2050 target is not a smart goal is a big Harry audacious goal which is going to demand the industry to think differently if we're going to achieve this goal. Right? And it's going to and that is very important because we're not changing or decarbonizing because we want to play with the next clean fidget or sexy toy or whatever it is. We're doing it because we're trying to address the existential threat. Mhm. Which means we live or die, you know. So, we have to start thinking differently. And I think these goals are important. I I think it's going to be tough. uh and I'm quite sure we might not make it in 2050 but you know what if we get to 80% or 90% of the goal we would have done so much for the mother uh for the environment all right so so I think I think we must have that mindset uh you know that uh I I mean all these years I've worked with different organizations we were always hamstrung by KPIs you know we always say okay what's my KPI I need to do two or three or four or five, whatever it is. And we're just focusing on that five or that four or that three. And I mean, um, and I always remind myself and I remind my team, the eye is, uh, is not an imperative. The eye is an indicator, right? That's the that's the direction we want to go. So we should be pushing ourselves not to just achieve the five but can we make it 10. Mhm. Right. And if we can't it's okay. But if we rethink the way we do things, if we use innovation or we use different business models, you know, we become uh you know, we we open the fields the solution field and not get bogged down whether I'll get my bonus next year if I meet my KPI or not. Right? We can change a lot faster. We are always hamstrung by these targets that are pulled out from don't know God knows where right just to achieve something so that you can do some reporting to the stock market or whatever it is. But I think we short change human ingenuity by having that limit. If we wanted just to say what can we do right and how can we do it best and how can we do it faster you know what I mean and then we start rethinking the way we do things otherwise we'll just level to the most lowest common denominator and we say yeah okay you know it's comfortable it's comfortable right I think being dis having a discomfort with the status quo is an important driver for change, right? And being comfortable being in a discomfort zone is a very important driver for change. And that's the way we if we're going to fight this existential thread, we will need something like that. And we will need leaders who have the courage to to to to believe that it can be done to have the ability to inspire people who don't think that way to think that way. And to also make a decision when you're wrong, you're wrong and move and pivot and change and you know explore. Right? We we are operating at the boundaries at the frontiers you know like Star Trek right to go where no man has gone or no woman has gone before right so what are the rules there right so we need to have the courage and the gumption to push through these barriers without needing to have all the facts sometimes we know you know it's paralysis by analysis or you know what I mean uh and you know you want a sure bet, you know, and we're going into a a zone where we are making rules. So there no sure bets, right? Mhm. So that journey has to uh envisage and recognize that uh that you know we want step changes but step changes come with risk and risk has while has to be calculated but it is going to be a risk there's no sure thing you know I think that innovators don't get enough credit for doing that right like exactly kind of they start something where they have no guidance no one has done it before but then In today's world, everyone is pointing magnifying glasses like how they are doing, what is he doing? But actually, it's that journey even if it's a failure that gave a piece of knowledge to the rest so that we don't have to like try and fail in 100 compartments in parallel, but actually that person took a risk so that others can learn from it. And then the 10th one will probably do it really well, right? But they're trying to they're expecting the person number one to do it exactly like an engineer with a thick manual would do it. Right. Yeah. And it's it's you know when you use the word failure I also asked what is really the definition of failure. Right. Failure is defined by a target that you wanted to go for. Yeah. Right. But the success is that journey to get to that point where you didn't make the target. That success is actually going to be the basis of the next person building on like you just said. Mhm. So is it truly a failure? Yeah. Right. Yeah. You you have succeeded in going to a space where no one has gone before and push the boundary further out. You may not have got to that final destination, but you've actually paved the way maybe halfway. Then someone builds from there and then closes that gap. Closes that gap. So is it truly a failure? I don't think so. I think it's a perspective. It's a failure because we had this KPI. Yeah. Right. and your you know whether it's a the stock expectation or internal budget expectation but with that effort to go to that next journey is is a success you know I also like viewing innovation as kind of a portfolio like you invest this project to learn so much more and even like going to space right okay did you get to the moon or to Mars but how about all these satellites that we now have that improve the life today that we have on Earth. So, and I love one of your quotes how you wish that success is measured by the millions of hearts that we touch instead of the millions of dollars we make. And I I think that is such a nice reflection also on how you try to do things as well. Um, I also like to switch up the mics and instead of me always asking questions to allow you to ask questions to me as well. So, do you have any questions? Yeah, I mean, uh, why are you doing this? I think I just love people and their stories. And maybe it's that poet in me, but as I'm also like learning from reflections of myself, I was always really curious about others. And I was in such roles where I was kind of building communities or driving innovation by pulling partnerships and pulling communities and people together. And for me it's been really important to understand who I'm dealing with. But that was kind of the initial part. But the second layer is like identifying similarities that help me work with different people or even understand where some resistance came from. And it's usually just kind of when you scrape this surface level of maybe this one is doing it for the KPI like when you identifies common values and see each other that's when things move that's when you or someone else feels the freedom to remove that hat and actually share what's bothering them what's empowering them and I think that is the essence of progress when people feel seen and heard, then they they have the power to push through the hardships because they know that they're not alone. So also when it comes to driving maritime decarbonization, my hope is that so many others hopefully that are watching will recognize themselves in any of these stories and think that I too can be a part of this. I too canly these people who seem to be speaking on podiums or like silently researching actually are similar like me and to to try to remove the hierarchy and and to drive progress by kind of sharing the commonalities that drive us that drive us as humans. Um so that is why no it's it's um it's it's it's a lovely effort. Um, we need this more today than we ever did. Um, because especially the younger generation, they're getting getting tugged in different directions, you know. Mhm. Um, and they are carrying very different burdens. Uh, everyone carries burden whether you're rich or poor. It's just it's different types of burdens, right? Uh so I think having these voices that you are making an effort to to bring together and putting it out there and trying to help people make sense of the world they live in so that they can be more purposeful in their journey is really admirable. I mean I I I think it's uh and you know technology is allowing us to do this right is is leveraging the technology to be able to do something like this. You know if if we go back 30 years it's not as if 30 years ago this issue never existed. It's always existed. This is part of humanity right? But today to have the technology to actually then make an impact and leverage that technology right is what we should be thinking about how uh how do we actually use innovation and technology to deliver some of these uh you know insights and opportunities for people. No, it's really great. Thank you. And it was never more affordable. It's so easy before maybe you would see someone on TV but you don't know what you're experiencing is kind of like typical or not or maybe you have some inspiration but you're not brave but I hope that when people hear these stories they know actually Sanjay has experienced that this is normal I can do this like it's okay I will not know but I can learn and hopefully learning snippets of that from different backgrounds would um encourage others to pursue exist in the pursuit of driving something new, whether that's now hopefully maritime decrimization or just something totally different. Absolutely. Um instead of thinking that they're not worthy of it as well, the journey is quite fruitful and the experience is fun. So, so, so I I can understand where your energy comes from. What are your red hot buttons? What what makes what deenergizes you when I'm away from my values? And is that's interesting because sometimes you also need to put boundaries to other people, right? And I tend to get some to be someone who wants to kind of uh please others and be there for everyone. But not everyone has a good intention in this. So recognizing when I'm driven by that or even when um like others expectations, commercial expectations for example are driving me away from what I feel is my value and like I'm someone who been I've been in sustainability my whole life. That's all I wanted to do since I was young. Right? So it's okay understanding whether I'm I'm choosing some shortcuts because someone else is expecting me too. whereas uh what I really want to drive is this. So things like that and in daytoday life I uh one of the things I really hate breaking deadlines like for me it's and it's an interesting one because maybe it's telling me something about myself but I really don't like going over the deadlines or when we agree that project would be done at this point it should be done or like there should be communication if things are not going in the right direction. So uh I don't like arriving at this destination where um things are not as agreed or if there was no communication along the way. These are the the buttons. Right. Right. So is is that do you have a comfort food? Uh I really like frozen berries, frozen ice creams, stuff like that. But I'm quite a healthy eater and I've been like vegetarian pretty much my whole life almost since I was nine and later vegan. So I'm quite I think uh healthy but I love fruits and lots of that. Nice. Nice. Nice. How about you? What's your favorite food? My favorite food uh is actually um uh my wife is a great cook uh and she knows every time she sees that I'm like you know maybe the work is getting to me or something is getting to she she'll always make my favorite uh green chili chicken curry uh with um a yogurtbased uh vegetable uh and uh that I could eat that every day really. So even my domestic help is like sir you you know you're eating this three days in a row. So yeah but I love it. Yeah. So I think for me it's my wife's cooking. I really love uh and especially some dishes. It's really that's my comfort food. Uh as you can see I'm not so weight conscious. Uh I'm working on getting healthier for sure. You're just enjoying life. I'm just enjoying life, you know, because I went through a major operation and I was fighting to stay alive. Uh, and that really gave me time to reflect on what's important, what's not important. uh and uh yeah so I try to I mean it's not to live dangerously or irresponsibly but remember that life is fragile and you really need to at least enjoy it you know uh and have fun and and uh leave something behind that will live after you that people will either enjoy or respect. back but be thankful for rather savor the moment savor the moment you know yeah well uh your wife is also an award-w winning chef so I think I don't know about award winning but she's a great chef and she's won all our awards at home and friends you know so you know she's she and she it's her passion you know she's been doing this for only so many years but only now because of her recent retrenchment she's really now got into it you know what I mean as a a business, you know, uh but prior to that, I mean, you know, I think she's got more than 500 cookbooks at home and she's read everything from everything, you know, and she cooks any cuisine. The only one she struggles with, I would say, is Japanese, you know, because you need a very different skill to do sashimi and sushi and things like that. But other than that, she's like, you know, yeah, she she really she I think she's energized. She she when she's tired, she cooks and she's not tired anymore. You know that kind of thing. Well, that is also a signal of what we are meant to do, right? When it's recharging us. Exactly. Exactly. Right. It charges us rather than discharges. Yes. Well, since we started talking about uh lunch topics, I think it's almost the time to think about that. So, I will thank you so much for being a part of this and sharing this conversation. No, thank you so much. I really enjoyed this actually. I'm glad to hear that. Yeah. people usually um when we finish the session they're like ah this flew by. Yeah. And I I learned so much from all these conversations I also realized they become my steering wheel as well. I think we bring we are brought together with people at the right time. So thank you so much once again and I hope we get a chance for more of these. Thank you and you're welcome. [Music]