The Wavemakers Podcast

Chris Chatterton on Leading the Next Wave of Green Fuels in Global Shipping

• BetterSea • Season 3 • Episode 3

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In this episode of The Wavemakers Podcast, we unpack Chris Chatterton’s journey from traditional energy to renewables, his decade at the Methanol Institute, and how he’s now shaping the future of alternative fuels and carbon insets in his current roles.

Chris shares:

  • The untold story of early decarbonization struggles
  • Why methanol and ethanol could be the future of clean shipping
  • How to build resilience through constant reinvention
  • His surprising personal story of discovery and connection
  • What advice he gives to young professionals entering maritime today

This episode is a must-listen for anyone passionate about energy transition, alternative fuels, and innovation in shipping.

🎙️ Hosted by Gordana at The Wavemakers Podcast – where maritime transformation meets human stories.

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📩 Have questions or comments? Feel free to reach out via email at gordana.ilic@bettersea.tech

[Music] Hello and welcome to another episode of the Wave Makers podcast where we focus on the stories of the people front running the maritime decarbonization. My guest today I would say is a lifelong learner and an adventurer. He started his career in oil and gas in former Soviet Union countries and then moved his way over to setting up renewable energy projects, some multi-billion dollar projects even uh to then navigate towards maritime decarbonization and driving the maritime industry to uptake the alternative fuels. He was a former COO of the Metanol Institute and he's also a board member at EBIA and his latest venture is a managing director at the Green Maritime Group. But all these hats aside, today we will learn who Chris Chatterton is beyond all this and how it feels to drive the change. Welcome Chris. Thank you very much. I love your WhatsApp tagline. Whatever you are, be a good one. Yes. So, how would you describe yourself in your own words? Well, I think I would uh I would start off by saying that I'm I'm driven by innovation and execution. So, I'm somebody who likes to uh play the two extremes, I guess you could say. And uh they they're they're uh they're going hand in hand in everything I I try to get involved with. Um, and uh I'm a lifelong learner, I guess I would say. Uh, I like to uh I like to read a lot. Unfortunately, I don't get to read a lot of the things that I would just take pure pleasure in, but uh but uh in this day and age and with uh decarbonization uh really becoming the uh center stage, yeah, it's not just a a pilot program or a or a side plan. It's it's really the plan in in today's in today's uh business world. And um in shipping, it's uh no less the case. So, spend a lot of time reading about uh people doing fantastic things with uh new technologies and uh introducing new fuels and um I like to uh kind of connect the dots between these these two these two worlds. And how did it feel going back to kind of some years back before this was a popular topic? How was it for you starting from oil and gas and kind of moving your way uh to more renewable industry? It was miserable because nobody really I think enjoyed it or uh I mean not not many of us really understood it to to be fair and um there were there were many failures along the way. Um I I've been involved in quite a few different projects that uh started off uh well but um you know there there really wasn't the support globally for for these types of initiatives previously. So um even if I go back to my my days at the methanol institute um going back some maybe 10 years ago and talking about renewable fuels or renewable methanol and I remember I was always the last person to present at any event on the last day the last dead last and um usually they were sweeping up the floors and stacking the chairs while I was delivering my my my monologue. So yeah, so it's come a long way and um it's been uh very challenging but uh we're fortunate enough to be at a point in time where it's really like I say is taken center stage and um it's it's a very important initiative and one that affects everybody. So I'm happy to be in the space and happy to have uh you know made the sacrifices to get here. So it's been worth it. Yes, I can relate to you. Um because I joined mask just when they started the decisization journey. Of course, Mat being at the front side of it all and I would go to conferences. People were angry like people were very angry about the whole topic. So I can identify a little bit with that push back that you get. But when I look at your career, I see that you don't seem to be afraid of venturing into unknown. You like setting it from zero to one. Yeah, it's um one thing I can say about having come from traditional energy, you know, um and and and a few foray back and forth in into renewables and then back again and and now in shipping, it's made me uh much more resilient and um and much more pragmatic, a bit more grounded, you could say. Um shipping moves on a different basis. It's not uh shipping isn't uh isn't buying into hype. It's it's based on on um relationships. It's based on uh risk aversion and um and resilience. Yeah. So Mhm. I also wonder what is it about shipping so much because I've also experienced that it really grounded me and okay we will move but at our own pace and for good reasons. So what is your experience? What is about shipping that gave you that feeling? Uh well, I've always been, although I'm not an engineer, but I've always been technically inclined and uh and I was I was very into uh very much a petrol head, you know, in my youth, uh racing cars and things like this, motorcycles, and um I was just in awe of these engines uh that are propelling these massive floating, you know, behemoths. So uh and I was uh really amazed at the at the technology and the you know the people that were behind the technology. I remember the first time I I had the chance to uh uh to u to get introduced to to man which is now Everlands um in Copenhagen and uh the first time I boarded the Stanner Monica which was the first uh methanol retrofit. I think it's the world's fifth largest rope packs carrier but uh yeah just amazing machines and the amazing teams of people that uh that that operate you know such incredible machinery. So that that was really my uh kind of turning point. I was quite impressed by the you know it's shipping was even then was considered uh to be a bit outdated industry but uh I never saw it like that. It was for me it was quite high-tech you know it's quite and you can see now the the level of innovation the level of technology is uh you know it's just scaling at a magnitude in shipping especially yeah I also saw recently one of the LinkedIn posts that was explaining how even the requirements on the CV have changed so drastically how the industry requires for much more technical knowledge and uh and I find it to be fascinating I think like the the last few years in shipping I think it's totally transforming the industry in many ways. I mean the the two buzzwords are obviously decarbonization and digitalization. uh digitalization is uh is is really what's uh I think driving a new breed or a new wave of of of young talent into shipping and into similar industries which uh you know have uh sort of uh fell into a bit of decline but are now you know again based on technology available technology it's really really scaling uh you know very fast it's been almost 10 years for you in the metanol institute so You've been in this for a very long time. Yeah, it was a quite a steep learning curve for me. Again, I I'm not an engineer by training. Um so um getting to to uh understand uh from a from a chemical industry perspective, you know, um how how the how the product itself performs uh was was one level, but then um having to onboard it onto a ship, which I knew nothing about, very little about at the time, um was was quite another. and um um understanding the the technical language was yeah like a completely learning a new language. Yeah. So uh yeah I have many kind of funny stories about that where where uh yeah I was caught out but um fortunately I' I've been able to to refine my my trade and and my delivery a little bit over the years. So um yeah. So, so what would you say is your superpower? A superpower? Uh I don't know that I that I have one. Um although uh uh I was I was uh kind of diagnosed ADHD I can say when I was you know young and one of my sons is is a little bit ADHD as well. back in the day it was just called hyperactivity. But um but it's a bit of a superpower and I I tell my my kids this all the time, you know, don't don't think of as a liability. It's really a kind of a bit of a superpower. But uh in in my in my uh sort of line of work and and and with my um uh the work that I'm doing in maritime space, it's really about uh connecting the dots as I referred to before. So, I I kind of think my my superpower, if it if it could be worded like that, is uh is more about um you know, connecting people uh with capital and with ideas and and with execution. That's maybe my maybe maybe my strong point. Catalysis, you catalyze the something like this. Yes. Wow, that's really nice. And I have this funny question that I ask everyone. If you were a ship, which ship would you be and why? Um uh I just made a post about Lego and I used a Lego ship uh on LinkedIn not long ago, but uh I think if I was a ship, I would be something like a uh something like a multi-purpose, you know, midsize, something able to handle multi- cargos, you know, and uh I could for the most part go anywhere and uh you know, be more things to more people And uh and and as such I think I would be more valuable. And um uh in that respect I I I guess I I would probably also be able to uh to entertain um you know more more innovative uh voyages or more innovative cargo moves, things like this. looking a little bit forward and being able to guide generations that are coming into this space, what would you advise them how to find their path in this whole segment of maritime decarb? Because usually they come and they're like, "Oh, I want to do something in this space. I resonate with the purpose." Um, so how would you help them guide their way? Well, it's u it's not easy to bring young people into shipping these days. I mean because not not many want to really um I mean a lot have a passion for for sailing and and for shipping but uh maybe less so to to spend so much time at sea. So it's it's not easy to uh to to attract younger people and younger talent. But uh with the innovation of decarbonization, digitalization, that's actually driving a lot more interest uh for younger people to get involved. and um and they're finding that uh yeah there really is a lot of room to to uh to grow and in different many different directions. Um you know we have so many different types of propulsion now available you know we're commenting on this the wind sails and wind assisted propulsion for example but uh the new fuels like methanol ethanol um ammonia um uh require very high levels of of technical knowhow and expertise. So that I think is is one of the main um one of the main drivers and then enabling that is as I always suggest to people to you know follow your passion. Um I have one son who is very much into aviation so he's he's obtaining his private pilot's license right now. He's he's 15 and um and uh he's quite happy, you know, in in this space and I can see, you know, if if you're happy, you know, with what you're doing and what you're involved with and how you make a living from that, then um you're going to go much further in life for sure and uh you're going to have a better life. Um you won't see yourself as being stuck in a in a grind, so to speak. So, so uh my advice would be to yeah follow your passion but also to uh you know never never sacrifice good for perfect. So there's no perfect fit you know there's no perfect profession or no perfect technology. So um yeah follow your passion and and you know don't don't sacrifice good for for for perfect. And this was a lesson I had to learn I think because I was very much a perfectionist. Perfectionist. Yeah. Especially uh because now it's it's not my first time being an entrepreneur. So that journey very much teaches you to not strive for perfection because time passes and there's so many other things that you have to balance out. Yeah. But it took me a while I think over my 20s to get there and it's hard uh when I was doing research um I actually did catalysis like methane to meal conversions. Yes. So I was very much early in the game as well. And even that part where you're doing something that has never been done before and you keep failing. I remember I was doing this one same reaction 15 16 times a day setup. I was failing every day for eight months and eventually when it worked it was finally Chinese New Year. I was like still working and finally it worked. I was like I was crying out of happiness but at the same time I was like crying like oh my god it starts the next step now it's again that uh but then when I reached that point after eight months like I was so good in in the next steps and I didn't see that but it was perfecting that little tiny part of the whole equation that gave me all the skills I needed for everything afterwards and uh sometimes I feel like innovation doesn't get enough spotlight for that. Yeah. And believing in yourself. Yeah. So you Yeah. You That's good. So you managing your expectations and uh and you find at the end of the day that you're you're probably the the best expert, you know, out there. So I don't think I'm ever at that stage of self appraisal. But but yeah, that would help I think a lot because uh the doubt is a natural part of everyone's journey. And I also it's interesting because I hear that but also I gave a promise to myself you know early in my I think 20s and I said you will always do what scares you the most. So if I am afraid of something I will just do it and that's a rule. uh I still live by that and it's align with me but it's it's a challenging journey I would say but it was interesting combining these two like this doubt and just this kind of decision to just do it I'm with you because I I practically my whole career if you could call it that I' I've I've done the same you know any challenge I I I was always intrigued you know and uh and just wondering if I could do it, you know, from a personal perspective. And I always uh I always took the challenge, you know, if there was a choice, you know, I would always go with the let's do it. It's going to new places also many new It's taken me many different places and you know, I've met a lot of different people as a result. And um those experiences, they weren't all good, but the experiences were uh you know, fantastic uh building blocks, you know, that that helped me to to get where I am today. So, and when you look back, it must be a pretty exciting movie. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, uh really it's uh done all kinds of things and uh I can tell you just a little bit about my personal life. So, I was uh I was adopted from birth. I never knew my birth parents. But uh with technology came these uh DNA mapping apps. So I two years ago, two and a half years ago, I I uh jumped on two of them and uh I I found that I had three brothers. Yeah. And uh two of them are from the same mother. Yeah. So we got together, the two from the same mother, and uh uh connected right away, you know. uh really uh it's like we knew each other our whole lives. Yeah. But just met and uh you know we're all in our 50s at the time and um uh it was the same. We were we were kind of joking that we should probably have a movie because we have so many similarities. We all each have a son named Phillip. You know we all have a many other similarities that you know we you know never knew each other growing up. So it's kind of cool. Wow. That is just mind-blowing. It's just the first association is when you have that moment, you're like there is something greater like how does this happen? What are the odds of this? Right. Yeah. So it's it's quite uh yeah you can always learn something. Yeah. From whoever you're going to meet uh even you know today meeting meeting yourself you already have learned a few things. So I always had I actually wanted to adopt. I started with a dog but I always wanted this even when I was like a teenager and I was wondering how it feels to be on the other side. Yeah. Just like what is that experience like would I step into someone's kind of like territory? Who am I to write the future for this person? But it comes from a good place. Yeah. Yeah. It Yeah. That's probably, you know, one of the uh yeah, one of the noblest things you could do. Yeah. And uh well, thank you. 100% support. If you do it, do it. The reason why I was referring to kind of this journey of venturing into unknown and facing questions and still doing it is also because I feel that maybe as I when I was younger I wish I knew this because I wish I knew that that's a normal part of the process and that even the most successful people have that journey and that experience and I remember once um being with one of the Microsoft executives and he said in one of the projects that I've did done before and he said I still don't know what I'm doing. I just kind of I've done it so many times and it worked. So I just kind of have a trend of success that gives me faith that it will work. And when it comes to decarbonization also entrepreneurs working on a lot of this hardware uh tech facing expectations uh and these fears they're still doing their best into an totally unknown field. So I think they they should give themselves credit for paving the way for everyone else so that we can learn from each other. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot you can learn from from people in these in these roles that uh I mean there are many greats you know we're really fortunate to be in this point in time you know with so many uh fantastic minds doing so many fantastic things and um there there are some some trends you can pick up on across them but uh like you say probably the most prevalent is they these people are very persistent. they they they they don't give up. Yeah. And they're not willing to accept no for an answer, you know, if they if they believe in it. So they these are people of faith generally and um and uh and they have strong conviction to their to their purpose. they're purpose driven and u that's what I also try to uh to incorporate whenever I get involved in a in a particular project is to focus you know and and uh try to again because I'm not a technical person to begin with but uh try to try to uh boil down complex subject matter into more simple bite-sized u bits so that it's uh so it's easier maybe to to progress it and back to the different roles one can play within maritime I think marketing and communication is also very important especially because none of these projects would likely take off if there's no someone who's translating that in simple ways that can resonate with many and bring all the different stakeholders to the same page uh and people who are volunteering to join uh some of these test vessels and test technologies, they wouldn't be as excited to be a part of it. Yeah. uh so it's a very important role as well I think and it takes a lot of advocacy and and and uh raising not only the awareness but educating you know to to to at least a minimum degree so that uh uh different uh different faces or different uh people can um you know can relate in their own way and they can then um move to to support or or otherwise you know given the tools that they have at hand whether it's polic policy or it's a you know purely technical innovation or it's uh something to do with maybe how that product or that that asset is traded or how it's funded and so yeah there are many many aspects and uh it's only getting more complex you know and uh yeah that that's maybe one of the most challenging um things is just communicating how how how you can incorporate so many different um you know roots to to say to to sustainability um in a way that will make sense and that resonates economically and um say strategically. And I know that on LinkedIn uh lately you've been sharing strongly your opinions about ethanol as one of the future fuels. Yeah. Uh how do you see in your perfect world the world in 2050? So now you can scrape what is possible impossible in your painting. Really like methanol um from from day one because it's uh it's the simplest alcohol molecule and uh you know single carbon bond and and very simple to understand and we know uh a lot about it. It's been used as a fuel for many many uh many many years. Um, ethanol is really no different. You know, there's a lot known about it. It's a cousin to to methanol and uh so it's really not surprising that it's, you know, it's being um suggested to be used as a as a ship fuel now. So um and if I go back to say uh 2020 when when methanol was uh approved and confirmed for inclusion in the IGF code but IMO um it was always stated as methyl ethyl alcohols nothing less not just methanol and not just ethanol but but at that time um and that was just five years ago um the ethanol markets were focused on different application mainly gasoline fuel blending but over the past five years we've seen um more EVs come to market we've seen um uh more efficient vehicles in general come to market so they're consuming even less so uh and now we have the aviation industry beginning to to decarbonize as well um both methanol and ethanol are used as feeds for alcohol to jet pathway for aviation fuel, sustainable aviation fuel. And as it's been used uh um more so in in the chemical uh industry, it's it's also quite well known with with many many uh subvertical applications out there. Everything from cooking fuel to to boiler fuel. And now that's all all that technology is finding its way into into shipping where it's in demand to to find um lower carbon fuels. Methanol is certainly ticks that box and uh uh ethanol uh maybe ticks it even harder. So it's uh ethanol has even some advantages over over uh over methanol. It's it's less toxic significantly. So, um it's a little bit higher energy density, which is a nice thing, uh when we're talking about uh uh placing energy on board. And it's also already because it's a bio fuel, it's already low carbon. Um and it can be brought down to you know almost zero emissions with the help of say carbon capture technology which is another technology that's again finding its way not only into the into the market on the fuel production side for all these fuels but also now on board vessels. So you can see uh the market is uh developing rapidly and uh we we need all these technologies, we need all these fuels and uh yeah uh my uh maybe some of my more recent um activity has has been more focused on ethanol because we've we've been working on methanol for quite some time and it's there's a lot more known about it now as as a ship fuel and we have uh you you know, we're on track to to to see probably somewhere north of a thousand vessels, methanol dual fuel vessels by 2030. So, uh, ethanol can certainly play a highly complimentary role to to methanol's uptake. And, um, I I I believe that the the engine testing will take place, uh, in the next couple months. Mhm. So you can you can look to see more news coming from the engine OEMs themselves and uh and then we'll likely see by first or second quarter next year we'll see already ethanol uh re ethanol calibrated engines methanol dual fuel engines that have been calibrated to to run on ethanol. So, so it's yeah, it's it's nice to see these uh you know these base hits and it's nice to see the industry you know continuing to evolve and continuing to to embrace you know new technology and new fuels and and getting more options to handle the risks. So and and with every yeah with every option with every uh with every innovation uh you know it gets a little bit more affordable and a little bit more doable and a little bit more bankable. So yeah, so we like that a lot. Looking at fuels but also technologies, how would you compose your portfolio? I was asked that question actually about five years ago and um and I said I would at that time I I would just scrub my vessels. Yeah. But uh today uh I would uh I I I would probably still um look to to do some bofuel. I mean that's the lowhanging fruit. But uh we're quickly I think going to unless we see more feeds come available at a at a economically available that is um we're reaching the ceiling of what we can do how far we can go with with bofuel like use cooking oil you're referring to. So I would uh obviously uh use that but uh methanol is yeah it's an easy one you know really and u you can start with uh gray methanol you know you don't have to you don't have to start with all green you know that's we we are keen to let people know about this you know having a dual fuel engine is an option just like you say you that's the correct way to approach it is it's an option option. So, you can still burn fuel oil, but uh um you you can you have the option to burn another fuel and soon you'll have the option to burn two more fuels on that same engine, you know, methanol and ethanol. And um if you can do it in a cost-effective way, you can you can obviously, you know, bring down your emissions. So, you can not only be compliant, but if you want to go beyond that, you're certainly welcome to. um there's enough of the fuel produced globally. So um yeah, I would I would do the same. Bofuel, methanol, ethanol and uh and ammonia eventually I think will be uh it will be a good fuel. Maybe we'll see some biomethane but uh but anything bio generally tends to tends to be more localized. So uh it's more limited from a scale perspective. So, um, but having said that, yeah, uh, I would, if I had 100 million, I could I could easily, uh, retrofit, uh, you know, five or six ships. And if I have a midsized fleet, that's that's going to be good enough to get me to 2035, maybe beyond. So, so now we have an advice for smaller ship owner. Yeah. They can start. So, and that's maybe that's also one of the kind of the key benefits of the alcohols is that you can retrofit economically the these any vessel that's electronically, you know, ignited. Um, that's maybe 1995 1996 circa vessel. Um, so you can retrofit these to to an alcohol fairly fairly easily. What is exciting you in the let's say for the next one year which project that you're working on is the most exciting? Uh well if to be honest I have one other entity it's called carbon 3 and um this is focused on um scope 3 emissions in setting where we uh work to facilitate investments that are focused on mainly scope 2 emissions but those scope 2 emissions usually represent also a scope three emissions for another supply chain stakeholder. holder partner. So um we're working to develop uh this platform further to not only um uh as as I mentioned facilitate uh insetting of emissions reductions uh investments within the supply chain itself between say like-minded partners um but also to accelerate because if I can if I can uh receive a scope 3 emissions reduction production through my my supply chain partner. Um then maybe I'll be more inclined to to participate in his future projects and and uh and scale his his ambitions at the same time as well as uh lowering emissions in general and and and we do that by by insetting not by offsetting. Yeah. So I think this is quite exciting and uh I see it's also a you know beyond the the technology and the and the fuels which are driving you know scope one and two emissions um this is the next stage of of uh emissions reductions scope three and scope four where we where we really focus on the on uh higher levels of collaboration and and further supply chain and value chain integration. I am familiar with that as well a bit. Uh and I know also from the ecosystem perspective like okay we've been dealing with this for so long and it's depends always of the geopolitical situation whether we go all in or not and how much this type of activity you know sustainability it it really requires yeah a very very high degree of collaboration. one company cannot do it you know it just takes a lot of a lot of you know cooperation so um so it's not so much competition you know of course these are commercially sensitive um investments uh because uh you know policy is now driving the the the commercialization of decarbonization but uh but it's more like coopetition And so by by moving together and and and uh by focusing on insets and there are quite a few successful models out there many larger organizations are uh now even incentivizing their their top management with with insetting programs and and with a focus on scope three emissions. It's it's uh that important and it uh it's the scope 3 emissions in setting that that really you know like you say catalyzes the the sustainability you know of any investment. So yes that's a I feel that that is the lockin part. Yeah. And it's what binds the end customer and the originator in a way. Yeah. And with different uh activities happening, when do you find the time to unwind? How do you recharge? I mean, sometimes I hit the gym, it's almost like a little temple for me to to get in the gym, you know, and blow off some some steam. Um, but I like to play ice hockey. And uh I we we lost our rink here in in Singapore a couple years ago, but uh yeah, there's socks that we we may get a new one soon, but uh yeah, still still skating and um um trying to I had a back injury a couple years ago that sidelined me a couple times, but uh yeah, I like to skate a lot and uh you can find me in East Coast Park. uh inline skating as well. So, so yeah, I've done a lot of sports, but um those are kind of the the two I sort of hang with these days. And I have uh two kids still at home. I've got four total, but two kids still at home. So, quite active with them as well, too. Thank you. Well, I also give the opportunity to switch the mic. So, if you want to be the interviewer, you can. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Actually, um that's a that's a nice that's a nice option. And uh I I also have you know what we we talked a lot about advocacy and communication and and I think podcasts are really a wonderful way to do it because and we we've organized over the years you know lots of webinars and um you know um live events and things like this and they're always interesting but I think uh always in fact the most relevant panels are the say the the panel where there's there's no script, you know, there's no uh there's no presentations being made. It's just uh you know, point blank questions to to leaders in industry. These are always the the top panels like in some of the uh some of the shipping events and um it would be it would be nice, I think, to yeah to continue this type of series. So, I was I'm going to ask you if if you would be interested to uh help me to do this on on a couple of fugles. Yeah, I would be happy to do it. I think it could be interesting. Thank you. Well, I I find it almost it's more affordable nowadays to leverage these uh options and different channels of communication. And somehow there are two sides of why I'm doing it. One part is that I want to spread the message to engage the community because that's my nature. I love bringing communities together and I find it as a great channel to do it. And then uh the other part of it is that I really love the in-person connection and also we normally have the opportunity to see people just from the title that they are um doing at the moment and they switch companies and I have experienced also that people see me as what she says is this company's voice but there are so much that we learn as people throughout that the journey of playing these different roles And at the end I somehow believe that when we recognize each other as people um through some shared experiences or thoughts then this spark goes on and actually moves the change. So maybe not immediately, but I believe that someone maybe will watch it and take a sentence and maybe this sentence will carry them through in three years when they're facing a block or need extra motivation or wonder is this okay that I'm now experiencing. So I'm kind of throwing it out there into the world with hope that we plant seeds for future. I think it's absolutely the right way to go. I mean, I I pick up a lot of um those types of moments from my kids, you know, and they're only 11 and 16, the two that are still own. And um uh I I like for example um I had a I had a a very good friend, a former partner of mine. His niece used to be the uh the editor-inchief for uh Financial Times in in the US and she did a lot of interviewing of top people and uh really became a like an expert in top management. Yeah. and and uh and I see uh I follow one other person on Instagram uh uh his handle is school of hard knocks and um he's 22 I think 23 but he's interviewed everybody you know who's who just on the street you know one minute little yeah little interviews and um uh fantastic and and you can see he's uh educated himself to, you know, fantastically, you know, over the past two years that he's that he's been doing it. I think I know who you're referring to, but I just don't know the title, but I'm following the shorts on Instagram. He's interviewed everybody that's anybody. Yeah. So, it's like a well, we should do the same in shipping maybe. Maybe. Yes. Thank you very much for being my guest today and sharing your experiences and uh some glimpses of the past and I hope to do this more and that we can also look into it some years later and see if we were right about this portfolio. Wow. Let's hope. Yeah. Yeah. And thank you very much for having me. Thank you for reaching out and um yeah, let's hope that maybe something we discussed will be useful for somebody and they will take it to the next level.

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Gordana Ilic

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