The Wavemakers Podcast

Anil Jacob on his Why: Bridging Data, Safety at Sea and Maritime Decarbonisation

• BetterSea • Season 3 • Episode 4

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In this episode of The Wavemakers Podcast, Anil Jacob (Managing Director of OceanOpt and Head of Fleet Performance at BSM) shares his remarkable journey from sailing tankers to shaping the future of maritime decarbonization.

Anil discusses how first-hand experience at sea shaped his understanding of safety, commercial pressures, and subsequently - leadership. He reflects on building teams that embrace change, driving digitalization for fuel optimization, and guiding the next generation of seafarers to understand their impact on the shipping industry on its path to 2050.

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Hello and welcome to another episode of The Wavemakers Podcast, where we focus on the leaders and their personal stories at the intersection of shipping, maritime decarbonization and digitalization. My guest today started as an engineer on a tanker vessel and then worked his way up through different companies, some of the largest shipping companies to transport his career towards data.

And today he's a managing director of the emissions management platform OceanOpt. Please help me welcome my guest, Anil Jacob. Thanks, Gordana. Thanks for having me. Let's rewind and look back into your journey into shipping. How did that come about? How did you decide to get on a ship? Let's say I was just lucky enough to meet the right people at the right time.

So I started off my career as a fifth engineer on board a tanker vessel. And then, yeah, I sailed for about 17 years. And then when I left sea, I was a chief engineer by that time. And then when I was doing my drydocks, I met a lot of people who were from the office, mostly the technical students and the fleet managers.

So I used to send these reports to them and they were kind of impressed. They said that, okay, I mean, I think you should be someone who should be in the office because you're not just concentrating on the engine room, but you are kind of curious to know what's happening on the outside, not just what's happening inside the engine room.

And then I was reluctant in the beginning because I was kind of okay working as a chief engineer on board. There are a lot of responsibilities. That's what I was trained for. I was a pure technical person. But then what happened is that they called me for a temporary assignment in the office. And that's how I came to know what's happening ashore.

What are the other departments in shipping where this is kind of a business, and how the technical is just one aspect of the shipping business as such. So that gave me a lot of exposure. And sometimes it's only through experience that you understand, you know, what's really happening outside as I said.

So I had a good one year there then, you know Covid struck in between. And I was at home. I was planning to really come back on board the vessel. But then, you know, my, uh, sailing experience was mostly with big companies to start off with Shipping Corporation of India and then with most tankers. And, uh, finally I was with Bahri Ship Management and, uh, and I was in Dubai for the I mean, I was managing the same vessels that I was working on, so that gave me a good exposure.

But then Maersk called me back into their performance team in Mumbai, and that also happened by chance. So I was anyway sitting I was not getting my vessel to go back, so I thought I might as well join that. That would be an experience and that is my first experience with performance. And then I came to know that performance.

Although we talked about talk a lot about fuel optimization, it all comes to the data part where there were a lot of challenges. So that's that's how I, I came to know about performance and, you know, decarbonization as such. That kept me really, really interested in that field. So I was there for almost two years before I got a call from BSM to lead a team for decarbonization.

So I'm sure there might have been some internal references. But I have always believed that if you have, if you are sensitive, I mean very sincere to your job and you know you really like what you do. Obviously you will get the offers at the right time. So I was approached by the CEO of a company and he said, okay, why don't you lead a team?

The same team in in India. So then yeah. So that was one team that I built for BSM. Still working fine because there are a lot of clients that we serve for fuel optimization. And then we formed this company, Ocean Office, which is now looking at the same aspect for decarbonization solutions and platforms.

But the main focus is a digitalization and digital transformation and providing compliance strategies to companies. So I have basically moved from a technical person to a commercial person, and that's where I found the need that, you know, you need to be constantly learning things. And that's why in the meantime, I did my MBA from the Indian Institute of Management, which was also some big challenge I had to take because five days you're working, and then the next two days I and I, I was certain that I want to do a physical class, not an online one, where you get distracted more often.

And that's where I really wanted to learn the business as such, you know, and the different aspects. So yeah, so that has been an experience. And studying MBA has taught me a lot on not just the technical aspect, but more on the commercial and the different aspects which run the business as such.

So it's been going well now and it's been an experience. And yeah, I think I am really liking what I am doing. And I think the the aspect that I like the most is that you are contributing in a way to the digital transformation of the industry. As you know, the industry is in a major transformation era, and being part of it itself is to be lucky.

So that's why I said I'm just lucky to be at the right place at the right time. Well, I think it takes more than luck, but lack plays a role as well. And I remember when we were doing briefing for this, you were doing your final exam the next day. So I wanted to ask, how did that go? That would well, I mean, I in the two years of MBA, I've really known how to really crack the exam by now.

You know, because, you know, I mean, it's mostly based on case studies. You know, business is generally the I mean, big case studies, which are part of the Harvard Business School, you know, and then questions are related to that. So and in the class also we there's no kind of specific tutorial or it's that we concentrate on.

It's just case studies that we we look into. And you know, we discuss that with the professor. And being part of the IAM alumni gives you a lot of exposure because the professors, the people, the you know, that come for the course. I mean, these are people with a lot of potential from different walks of life.

And so that gives you a good amount of exposure. And the and the pedagogy also of IAM is really impressive. So I think rather than going to any college and just taking an MBA, it does not make that kind of an impact. Your perspective changes, you know, you become much more wiser person. So when I look back two years before, I would say that I am much wiser with a

different perspective altogether today. So yeah, your journey also tells a story about constant learning and upgrading, because it was your curiosity that made you move from being on the vessel to, uh, being in the office and working on data and kind of like catching these first waves of change. And, uh, were there any lessons that you learned on board the vessels that were useful now in life?

Yes, obviously, because I had two major, let's say, incidents on board that I had witnessed and I was part of. First was when I was a fifth engineer and I was working on the boiler. So those were double evaporation boilers where you do not have sensors for these furnace doors. So I was working with second engineer and um,

at that time you don't have UMS systems. You have watch. And so this third engineer comes to watch at 12:00, and then he has a normal practice of starting the boiler. And those were the days where you did not have permit to work systems and tags on board. So I was inside the furnace with the mortar man, and this guy comes and starts the boiler and suddenly the, you know, the first rough fan runs and we feel as if, you know, there's a big draft happening inside the furnace because we were cleaning the furnace.

And then I do not realize it because it's my first vessel.

And then suddenly we see that there's another sound coming in, obviously, because the draft is done and then it's ignition going to happen. And then there's this diesel pouring on top of me and the guys, and the boiler just misfired. And I was just lucky. So that was my first experience of, you know, how safety is so much important on board.

And that gave me a realization that it's not just work that you need to do. You need to kind of separate yourself from the daily work and understand it from a distance as to what are you doing? Where are you in that chain? It's not just doing the work, but it's your life. It's the life of people around you. That gave me a, you know, a feeling that, you know, are we kind of working in the right direction.

So and as I was saying, those were the times that You had the practice, but it all depended on the individual who's following it especially. So that was that was the first thing that I realized that, yes, even on board the vessel in the engine room, you must have proper safety precautions in place. And this comes from the thought of management itself, you know, what are the safety protocols?

What are the procedures? Needs to be there. So there should be somebody who should be looking at from a very high level saying that what happened here? What are the corrective actions to do. And that's that's what a manager does, right? I mean, you have operational people to do a lot of stuff. So I was really interested to know what went wrong.

And and then the chief engineer, because I told him that there's some problems. So he told me, okay, then you write something which, you know, can be prevented. So I made a proper procedure checklist. It was all there, but I made it a little more practical for the crew to understand. So that's where I realized that, okay, this is something that I already have inside me.

And then we were sick. And in the second incident where I was really drawn into what was happening outside, was when we were doing a main engine and

we just had very limited time to do that, and because we were going to the port, we were under pressure to do it and I was just doing my normal stuff as a fifth engineer, what he is supposed to do. So the second engineer is the one who's and the chief engineer who's basically looking at that. So I was doing my kind of role there in that, but I was constantly listening to this pressure from the captain saying that, okay, we need to rush, we need to rush.

There is commercial pressure, there is commercial pressure, and we need to start the engines by this time. And so that also kept me thinking, you know, why are we not able to kind of work safely? But at the same time, there is this pressure that's always being called as commercial pressure. Commercial So we did the recap within that time.

But, you know, it was under a lot of stress that we had to do. Although I was not internally satisfied. But then I wanted to know what is this commercial pressure? Because we are all technical people. We just know, okay, we need to do a job. This needs to be done within a time frame. But when there is a commercial pressure, I wanted to know why we can't be allowed a bit more time and what is this commercial pressure?

So obviously that was a job being done, not telling, let us say all the stakeholders, but we had to do it because that was something which was not good for the engine if we left it the way it is. So

that gave me an understanding that there are a lot of stakeholders in the whole shipping industry and then understood. Then I wanted to know what is this commercial? So it comes from the operator side that you have to reach port within this many days. And you know, there is the proper contract signed between the owner and the charter.

And obviously you need to be there because obviously that's a business happening and that that is something that I realize later that we are we are just one part of that whole chain of shipping business, but then

you find a lot of gaps in between. So this means that if you really understand the whole business from a distance, you know, as I was saying, you will really be able to close those gaps. So that's where I understood that I wanted to close those gaps, you know, because I and that's that's the realization that you get when you come from a seafaring background because there's because everybody says, you know, you are working on board.

There's a lot of dangers. But yeah, but they the seafarers are an essential part of shipping and they have to be on top of things now because of all these regulations. So even if you want to save that one ton of fuel, it has to come from somebody who's there on board. Right. I mean, he needs to say that the vessel is over consuming.

He should say that, okay, my main engine is not performing well or my boiler is consuming fuel more than normal. So I think bringing all the stakeholders together was a big gap in the industry. And as I'm saying, you know, that's where I believe, uh, I'm happy to be part of it because in the present role that I'm having, I understand all the dimensions of shipping, you know?

So when I'm doing something, I know what are the repercussions of not doing it or by doing it. What is the utility that you provide to the industry? So I'm happy that I've always been part of the seafaring background, because then it really makes you understand from from the basic level, you know, how

it affects all, all the people. So, so that's that's a these are, I would say two incidences that that made me understand that. yes, there is a bigger story that you also need to know, not just the day to day job that you are doing. So yeah, it's it was making sense of that experience and trying to find answers especially you start a new job and you already end up in such a stressful situation like, well, where did I come?

Like, what's happening? How to go from here? Right. So it's a it's also in a way a response to, to stress and to try to protect yourself going forward. But this commercial pressure, it sounds almost like, you know, big Brother scenario. It's just like you ask a very technical person that he's going to say that, you know, we had to do it because there was so much of commercial pressure.

This commercial pressure is a term which is there, you know, that every technical person who's onboard the ship knows, although the, the, the telephone comes from the bridge, from the captain to rush things up. But everybody knows that there is commercial pressure. It's just that everybody is everybody's not able to explain what it is.

Oh my God. It's crazy to think of the size of these vessels. Like, it's basically taking a skyscraper and, you know, putting it horizontally. And then there's like 15, 20 people dealing with all of this, the whole machine. And that's responsible for it. It just blows my mind. And then when you're in an office, some of these like become numbers and, you know, you're trying to optimize some difference in data, but actually you you kind of know that, okay, the and executors are the people, but unless you experience it, you don't know what it takes or why.

This data is now read. And it's not like. But thinking of what people on board are trying to balance at the same time under these circumstances, I don't know. It's crazy. Yeah. It's it's I mean, and that's that's still a gap because, uh, any performance department of any company needs to also have the seafarers on board.

Uh, if you really want to do that fuel optimization. And I think that's that's still a major gap. So, uh, we know as per statistics, energy efficiency is one of the important elements in driving this change for decarbonization. And what we have calculated is that a good 15% still can be made. You know, let's say fuel saving is possible through energy efficiency.

This means the operations on board energy efficiency devices technologies. So it is not necessary that all the percentage comes from alternative fuels or whatever we talk about. There's still this big percentage or I wouldn't say big, but at least this 15%. But that 15% could be a compliance option for one vessel, which is almost closer to the, you know, the capping.

So Uh, it's just that for this change to happen, you must have the seafarers understand it. So if you just talk to a chief engineer and say, okay, I want you to reduce so much of fuel. I mean, how how would he really understand you? Till the time he knows why. Why this is for. And you know, and why that one turns saving.

He needs to do what is that big change is actually translating to some commercial or let's say decarbonization targets that the IMO has set. He just knows that he's a chief engineer and he needs to maintain the machinery on board. Yeah, because nobody gives him another angle of, you know, saving fuel, talking about the engines and alternative fuels right there will be trained to work with it without possibly understanding the full implications of it, the risk they also put themselves in every day.

And luckily, okay, technology is also advancing. But we don't know. Though we never know with the first ones. Right? Right, right. How is it for you now? Working with people, driving the team and being more on the managerial side of things rather than, like deep in the data? Is it difficult to make that switch?

It was not easy. But obviously you meet a lot of like minded people, and that's the kind of people that you really want to work with. Generally, if you see and I'm not making a statement, generally, if you see technical people are very much happy doing technical stuff and they really don't want to move into management or commercial, but because I was always interested in knowing the larger picture and, you know, shipping as a whole, so that that's one drive that I had.

But secondly, I think you should also, as I said, you should also like what you do at the end of the day.

So people always say that work life balance is necessary. I mean, but if you if you are really liking your work, there is no work life balance. There's just life. So, uh, that's that's one thing which has always motivated me. And, uh, and you see a lot of people after you've moved ashore who have also come from, um, sailing background, and then you can readily recognize the person who you would like to take in the team because he has a much more, let's say he's having more passion to know what's there.

And I always look for people who want to learn, who want. I mean, so age is never a barrier to learn. I'm still learning at this age, and that's the kind of people that are going to drive the industry, in my opinion. Uh, they should they they at least should have a vision for the next 10 or 15 years. What I'm going to do, you know, what is the contribution that I am going to create.

And for that, you must be selfless as a leader. For me, uh, leadership comes with a first thought of, uh, selflessness because I have. I have also seen bad leaders. And why I say bad leaders is because they were very effective till the time they reached their leadership position, and after that, because they have started delegating work, they become lazy, they stop learning.

And and that's where the people under the under you also get demotivated because there's nothing to learn from you. So obviously you need to lead by example. And I think that's something that I have given as a motivation to my team. So I don't give these speeches or motivation, let's say classes, but I lead by example.

If I am there in the office, I am the first one to reach the right time. So I always show a lesson that you know you need to be on time. Because when you are a seafarer, you are always learning that discipline and punctuality. But I think it goes a long way because not for you, but for the people who are looking up to you.

It's important because that's that's one message that you are you are giving. And for decarbonization to happen, you need people who are kind of really oriented towards that kind of, you know, feeling towards the shipping industry. You know, what is happening, you know, how am I going to contribute, as I said?

And luckily, I have been, you know, again, fortunate to meet those people. And wherever I feel all all this is relatable. The first question to them is would you like to join me? So so yeah, we have a great team. And that's one of the reasons that we still are having a good rapport with our clients. Obviously there are challenges, but I think they find us trustworthy, reliable, and, you know, it goes a long way in creating that kind of rapport with all the people that you deal with.

So yeah, that's that's generally what I felt. I'm looking into the new generations. If someone comes in and intern first day. Uh, what is your advice to them? So we have a lot of interns coming in. I also have new joiners every month. Especially because we are now expanding. But my first advice to them is that just only look at learning for the first three months.

So there's not going to be any kind of job that's going to be given to you. You first understand where you have come. You know, the the company that you're going to work with. Where are we in this big shipping business, and which are the kind of teams or, you know, departments that we have? So then first, after, I think after the first two weeks, he or she will understand.

Okay, what is this? Is it actually something that my values can sync with? And then he or she will be interested in actually taking up that. So for me, it's very important that they they feel comfortable and they feel valuable and they also feel that, okay, this is something that I want to do because most of the people join, most likely because they are looking for a job.

But does this job really inspire you or are you really interested in the job? I think that's what we need to kind of convey them initially, and we need to give them an experience on otherwise you're you're kind of hiring a person who is not really interested in doing that job. Obviously we do our interviews, we do our evaluations, but that's for a brief amount of time, even the best of the interviews.

After a few months, you know that, okay, this is not the kind of person that you really want. I like how you said, okay. You should also reflect, is this something that's resonating with me? And I think that many don't look at it in such a way. They start looking for maybe a new role, a new job out of the need of survival or maybe new motivation.

And then they put themselves in the shoes where I hope I'm good enough for this, you know? But we rarely actually switch the table and like, okay, is this company for me? Because sometimes you can even have the best skills. But as you said, if you don't resonate with the values of the company or even just the values of that team, how they function dynamics.

Maybe you're the best talent, but not the right fit for that, right? And people don't ask themselves this revert question. And I love the first three months. Uh, I think it should be for mutual evaluation. I mean, it's it's also because you don't want to pressurize the person initially, you know, giving them targets, obviously.

I mean, this is something that you anyway, mentioned in the interview. I mean, on what is the expectation that you have, but you need to give them space to learn so that they can understand things better. So for senior positions, I first go into the mission vision values of the company so that I know that the company values and your own personal values are in sync.

Because if you don't want to be in a company where your values really don't go along, and the company also should be really happy to have you, it's a it's a mutual, let's say, a bond or a trust which happens. Right? Organization is made of people and they make the culture. And you need to first tell the culture to any new employee that's coming in so he or she can understand that, okay, I'm at the right place or I don't think this is something that I am looking at.

So that's the first realization that you need to give to somebody who's joining the company for the first time. I have personally given those sessions, and that's always there as part of the induction. The first day they have an induction with me for two hours, where we go into the website of the company, tell them this is the mission, vision, values.

This is what we are looking at. This is the management team, you know, and this is the kind of path that we are trying to follow. And, you know, is that something that you've been thinking when you were applying for this job is something we also ask in the interviews. Back to the new joiners coming into this industry.

How would you describe the character of the industry to them? Because maybe they're the first time in shipping. I just two weeks back, I was giving a session to trainee marine engineers near a maritime training center in Kochi, where our company is based. And I went to the fourth year students of BTec Marine Engineering.

So and I was telling them that whatever we have learned till now on the technical aspect, there is much more to it because this is something that, I mean, I was asked to come and, you know, brief about what we are doing and all that. So I said I would like to give them a bit more of that or more on the advice and more of the flexibility in thinking that they should now have, because they are just stepping into the industry.

They are going to be in the industry for the next 20, 30 years. So they should know what is happening in the industry right now. And I am the person who should be telling that because I come from the industry. Otherwise, they are just listening to classroom PD's and lectures on whatever is happening. Technical and I when I went to the Institute also, I realized that it's more of technical stuff that is given to them, but they are not being told what is actually happening in the industry right now, which is the transformation into alternative fuels and decarbonization.

And I mean, to be honest, you know, there's a very good need of the technical and the commercial to blend well. As of today, we talk about transparency of data owners and charters to share the data. So yeah, collaboration is number one. And number two, if you want to collaborate then you should not be working in silos.

And at the end of the day, the technical teams, the commercial teams, the financial legal, everybody needs to understand that we need to go together. So these are the things which I was telling them. So I was asking them this question. You might have heard of decarbonization. What is decarbonization.

So that first question itself, they are I mean very few people answer, but the rest really don't know what it is. So I feel that if I am going to serve on board a vessel as a fifth engineer and my chief engineer is coming to me, that okay, why did you, um, you know, overlook that spillage? Because he is also under pressure from the company to.

So I, I explained to them that why this is important and what is the effect that it's going to have when you know, on your specific job role. So I do a lot of, um, trainings to the, you know, budding seafarers because I have come up from that, uh, you know, level one day. So and that is exactly the guidance that you need to tell them so that they understand that what is in store and what is the kind of flexibility and in work that they might have to take from now on, so it is not going to be okay.

Keep your main engines are really in good condition and your boilers in good condition. But yeah. Why? Why are you keeping that, that that question of why is also important that you need to save fuel and that's, that's actually contributing to the environment. The present generation has a lot of people who are really caring about the environment.

But operationally, how you are contributing is something also that you need to tell them in return. So they will also be happy to do it. They they would, yeah. When they resonate with the bigger purpose of why they're doing it right, then they're not just executing tasks, but actually they have that bigger picture in mind.

And maybe I believe it opens the mind to different kind of thinking that will help them still achieve the same goal, because that's what they're steering for. And, uh, if you were the vessel, which vessel would you be and why? I would say, I mean, obviously you need to be a multi-purpose vessel. And as you know, you need to be a dual fuel vessel for sure.

Because, you know, obviously that's that's that is where you contribute in different ways. And as you know, today LNG, LPG, dual fuel is the norm. That's kind of already talked about as the intermediate fuel. And uh, as far as I know, there is no fuel which can be ramped up to such a level where in the next ten, 15 years we can supply the entire shipping sector.

And it's not just the main fleet which is going to consume this fuel. You know, the offshore sector is there. So there is a lot of takers or let's say consumers of all these alternative fuels which are coming. I think everybody is thinking that everything is going to come to the main fleet of vessels where we need to do all these decarbonization projects.

So I think that's the kind of vessel that I have. My

vessel, I would be a dual fuel multi-purpose vessel because then you really understand it from a multidimensional view. Hands on. Just taking care of all the moving parts. And that fits your role as well. Yes, I once asked this question and someone said I would be a yacht and I would just enjoy it. And I was like, wow, that's pretty cool.

Also like it's a good vision of life. Talking about visions. How do you see the world shaping towards now? Make it 2050 I think 2050. This target which is set by IMO. I hope we will achieve it, but I have a feeling that you need to set a target for sure, because if you don't set a target, nobody is going to achieve it.

So people say that it's a very ambitious target. Yes, obviously ambitious is a positive word, right? So you have to be ambitious in life so that you take the step towards reaching that target. And I also like the way that IMO has put it that 30 targeting 40 1770 targeting 80. So I mean so there is a minimum. But you know, there is a potential also that goes along with it.

Obviously, availability of alternative fuels is always a question, but I feel that the industry will have tech coming in and then the technology will mature at a stage where everything would happen, you know, because it's an opportunity for many players to have startups or technology companies which are going to support it.

Everybody said 2020 sulfur cap. Nothing is going to happen. But, you know, eventually 2020, we had the low sulfur fuels where the industry changed. So it's good that shipping industry is being regulated. But I have a feeling that it's not just the alternative fuels. It's going to be technology, it's going to be carbon capture, it's going to be energy efficiency devices, and it's also going to be a big change in the behavior of shipping professionals, including seafarers, which are going to drive the industry.

So I think 2053 for sure would be an interesting time where we will have the shipping industry much more. Um, I would say all stakeholders would be really professional enough to understand the contributions that they have done, and I think it's achievable. At least I am always optimistic on things. You know, we are all human beings with a lot of, uh, possibilities and potential and, you know, so, so I am really hopeful about that.

But yeah, obviously it's going to be a combination of all this, not just alternative fuels for sure. To me, it felt that at some point in the past years there was this high ambition and like, okay, how are we going to actually make it? Like because you have to spend time also onboarding all the stakeholders.

But I find it very interesting how at the same time, then there's this AI.

technology kicking in to speed up things. And I somehow feel that, okay, maybe we could actually make it because we are now empowered even more to be even faster and to get information faster to, uh, put information across faster. Also with like places like this being more available, um, to spread the message, the story, the learnings.

Right. So I also choose to be in the ambitious, optimistic bucket like five years back. Nobody really is even thinking about a podcast. Uh, and if you were even giving that kind of a concept, everybody would say, you know, what is it other than two people talking to each other? But yeah, obviously there's a lot of learning.

There's a lot of experience being shared. There's a lot of mutual value being added. So that I mean, that's where after meeting a lot of people, you become much more wiser. You understand perspectives of people and you are able to contribute more. You know, I think that networking and and those changes which are happening in the industry are are the ones which are actually empowering people, which is not happening in the past.

Yeah. And as you said, air has come now. So obviously getting information. So you basically optimize time. And that's that's going to actually have a much more, you know, stronger effect later. Yeah. And seafarers are also quite active on TikTok. And I think that's great because also they make their life closer to the rest.

And

even even as just an occupation, you know, like to someone scrolling this thing will pop up and they're like, hey, what are they doing? And maybe because it's very time, it will show another video of like the kind of stuff. So it would spark interest. And with shipping being always tuned on and so many passionate people, also always responding to meals out of that passion.

How do you find time to research? I am now starting to reset the last two years. I've never got an opportunity, to be honest, but then what I do is that at the beginning of the year, I block those specific times of the year where I'm mandatorily going to take a vacation with my family. So that means you already know that, you know, and I know there are classes for my children.

And I mean, but I really make it a point to say to my wife saying that, okay, this is the time that we are going to take a vacation and whatever happens later, this will not be something that we are going to disturb. So that's the kind of forceful reset that you have to provide in between. Because otherwise, if you are planning suddenly, it never happens.

And I did not have that flexibility, as you know, for the last two years. Saturdays and Sundays were always busy with classes. and then you have to do your projects, your submissions. You know you have, but you know, it was an experience and it really teaches you to to what extent you can stretch yourself.

And where is that level that you are going to have the burnout. So that is also a great learning that I had. So it it gives you a lot of resilience. You know this that's what I was saying. You know, I'm to be very honest a very completely different person after this MBA. It's not because of the MBA. It's it's the experience that you had to go through, especially in terms of time management and project management that you do apart from the normal work stress that you have.

So, yeah, I have done my research at the right time because I planned early in advance and I don't want to disturb that. Yeah. So that's that's something that I do. But reset for me is if you ask me, what do I do for resetting is basically, I read a lot of self-help books, a lot of leadership books, because that really motivates me.

Um, so reading is something that I do often, and I travel with my family to all the destinations that, uh, all of us want to go. So I make it a point that, you know, if my daughter tells me I want to go to Vietnam, then we go. So that's something that we did, uh, just a few months back. And, you know, so I said, what is your dream vacation?

She tells me her dream vacation. And, you know, we make it happen. So that's also so important for children, just exposure to different cultures, to just world around them, because then they put themselves in the shoes of others and grow that empathy for differences that I think help them later on. And these are the seeds that maybe as parents, you don't realize when it's happening.

But in ten, 15 years, when this grows in a person, you're like, oh, I just wanted to make her dream come true and take a moment to rest. And do you have any, uh, book recommendations to someone looking for the next advice? I think, um, Atomic Habits is a good start. Thinking Fast and Slow is another great book that I have read.

Um, so, I mean, and there are a lot of, uh, there's this, uh, one book which is called Do Epic Shit. But that's that's also something that really optimizes the time, um, you know, how to talk to anyone. That's also a very good book, which I have written. Really makes you learn how to articulate things to people, how to be brief, but to the point with the same kind of momentum and talking and, you know, so I think it's a, uh, you know, there are a few books, but these are some of the books which I would say would be really good from the.

And then also there's this recent book that I read from uh, which is uh, the author is the dean of my college. It's called Mindful Leadership. I've actually posted it on LinkedIn. Uh, and basically it's, uh, discovering the flexibility of leadership. You know, how you are, really. So it's going more on this adaptive leadership that is there.

You know, it's not the charismatic or the transformational leadership, but it's adaptive, adapting to the changes, you know, and understanding that AI is there only for helping. But, you know, obviously you need to give, uh, AI its space, but at the same time, it's human intelligence, which is much more needed because emotions come from human intelligence.

Um, I have always and there is this one thing that has always, you know, I've always kind of read this book and one sentence in which there's a conversation between two people and one is for AI, and the other one is saying that AI would not be the whole solution to that. And the way she phrases that is that I talk to the customer care of my mobile company, and then it's a chat bot replying to me and how badly I want to talk to a, you know, human out there, because I have a problem which the chatbot is not able to tell me, you know, or really help me with.

And so there is this human factor. At the end of the day, you need to talk to real people, which AI cannot, uh,

you know, substitute. So this is factor of sensing things only humans can do. I cannot sense things, you know, they can't understand the culture. So I think analytics is what they can do. But sensing the change is something only humans can do. I agree with that. And there was also another video that I saw.

It was a training where you can see it's an AI generated training. And I was like, oh my God, I just don't feel it. So it doesn't make me want to stay and look at it. I'm out. And that's also why I love doing podcasts in person, although you can get a lot also, um, through the video and remote, but it's just it resonates with who I am and what I like.

But I just like this moment and like, we get into a bubble and disappear. And with that, uh, I'll switch the mic, so I'll let the pressure off for you.

Do you have questions for me? Yes, yes, I have, because I have always been wondering, uh, about how you made this decision to really start up this company. Better see, because obviously you were with Musk. I know, uh, but, you know, you're doing a lot of stuff at the same time. Uh,

but how did you realize that? You know, this is something that you need to pursue. Um, and I also feel that you've taken the decision at the right time. And if I understand it correctly, you were in a very good role in the previous company. You had done a lot of projects and especially, you know, you being a very powerful lady that I know today.

Uh, just tell me what motivated you to make that change. It's obviously a risky call, right? Yes. My parents would tell you that I'm crazy in terms of making irrational decisions, just following my heart. But that's been how I operated my whole life. Getting from one thing to another is something in me was telling me, say no to this.

Say yes to that. Now is the time to change. And because it usually worked out, I started believing that inner call so at risk. So, um, I was working on very exciting projects with many teams as well and people. And obviously there was so much connection between us and I find I felt that like, um, I kind of moved them to be on the decarbonization train.

And then I felt so much responsibility when I decided to leave. But I was burning out, and it wasn't because of the load of the work, it was because I felt that my nature and this nature that has an urge to create was not fully true to itself, and that I had limited space for that. Although I had so much freedom driving innovation and, um, driving like changing how it's done as well.

But something in me was, um, like wanted to kind of steer my own way. And I've been an entrepreneur before, and, uh, my mom also has been an entrepreneur. So I kind of that is familiar to me. And I felt that calling more and more. You know, initially it was a thought and being in meetings and speaking to startups and feeling like, well, I just want like grab this thing and add this thing and like, help this and drive it.

And then it was exciting. Uh, I was mentoring some of the startups and now getting more and more involved with that process. And now when I look back, I saw this urge calling more and more to the point where I couldn't ignore anymore and I literally like, couldn't do anything else. My body just didn't want to cooperate until I actually picked up what I wanted.

So I felt that when I started doing something towards creating my own startup, I had endless energy. I didn't want to sleep. And when I started doing something else, the body would just fall sick. And then I started picking up these clues, and it was hard to make that choice because I was like, man, I have such a great role and anyone else would think this is a dream for the profile like mine.

And I had stability and quite a lot of freedom in that role. And like, my parents will kill me. Like, not necessarily, but like they were like, oh my God, here we go again. Out of her mind. But yeah. And then I talked to Max and he had similar thoughts of his own. And initially we didn't really know what we would do.

It was more like, okay, we saw the industry going in one direction and okay, let's just try, let's explore for the first six months and then find our way and you start getting answers. You start meeting people, you start creating your vision. You start meeting people who decide to be a part of that journey.

Right. And then that forms the culture of better see and how we do things and the product. Right. But you only do it once you start. Yes, yes. And I think then the the universe supports you because you act from your heart. So that's been the journey. Yeah. Agreed. I mean, it has been really impressive. Gordana and I have been to sessions where I have seen both of you present, and as I was saying, you know, the art of articulating things correctly, understanding the gap and proposing the solution is what it takes.

I'm sure those were challenging times where you had for sure some amount of self-doubt. I mean, would they succeed? I mean, those are the times where we think, okay, we've made this decision, but, you know, is that something that I'm going to regret lifelong? And that, as you said, the one that really I liked was when you said when you start meeting people and then you see a lot of people have also kind of taken such decisions, which really reinforces that feeling.

Right? That, okay, I may have taken the right decision then. It really

is something that kind of solidifies within you saying that this is the right. Uh. But I wanted to ask you that, um, uh, how has been the right so far after, uh, I know that's a good business. That and the company is doing well, I'm sure, but, uh, generally, any challenges in between? And what do you really feel is the challenge going forward also?

Mhm. It's been crazy. I think one day maybe we can make a movie out of that. But it's been a lot of ups and downs and not even like company wise but emotionally like expectation disappointment. And then you realize okay, this is leading me to another direction. And then when I think like I'm out of ideas, I don't know what to do.

The next thing is just shows up in the middle of nowhere, like, oh, we should do this. And it kind of works out. And people, you know, it unlocks something. So for me, it's been the biggest self-learning. And I see this tie up as a way of spiritual growth for myself, because it will push you, um, to the maximum of that moment.

Right. And you have to overcome some inner limitations, some inner belief. And whenever you say like, okay, I accept that the door is open. And I really don't know how to explain that rationally unless someone experienced it. But it was every time that a block happens when I haven't resolved something with myself.

And sometimes that's ego, sometimes that's a past belief. Sometimes it's like what you bring from the family. But you have to understand that this is their limitation because they haven't experienced the world the way I have. So it's been like that. And um, through that, learning how to trust my gut. And when we are meeting people and partners, potentially there are always so many options you can do that you you don't have to like, we could do this.

And sometimes, even when things seemed logically perfect, something in me was telling me no. And when I said no, like I don't care how logically it makes sense, it's a know soon after, like, I don't know, a few months, etc. I would get that reason why my gut told me no, and when I said yes, I was like feeling it in my body.

And it was a good decision afterwards. And that was the case with Max. Like he's also he's more rational, but he's also very in tune with his intuition. And somehow, like, we split duties, I feel that he's more of the executor and I'm the vibe maker. I kind of like sense what's the right time, and he is so good in making it happen.

Um, and here we are also leaning more towards his domain experience. I felt that you both complement each other, and I think, uh, in aspects of contribution to the company also, you both are rightly placed for the right kind of roles that you do. Uh, and I was just relating this to what I had read in the book.

So you mentioned about the sense of self, which is very, very important. What you are or self-awareness is something that should be there at the start. And then it also mentions how much productive you can be, which is basically your competence. And finally is to uncover the potential that you have. This is the third aspect.

So it is kind of a pyramid which actually in the book it resonates. So you are just touching upon those same points. So there is a lot of potential also that we have. We just need to tap it. And then uh, really challenge it. And so that, you know, we can do the best what we are capable of. Yes. And I think that's the best way to round it up and let it be the final message of the podcast today.

But thank you so much for being my guest and making this happen. Finally. And I'm looking forward to more. And I'm grateful that we get to be partners in this journey of shipping and regulations. Yeah. I mean, really happy to be part of this podcast. Uh, I've never been in a podcast before, but I never felt that this was kind of a, you know, let us say, a recorded session because we were just opening ourselves and just being ourselves here.

So thanks for having me. It's been a great experience and I think, yeah, I'm also looking forward to the business growing and, you know, uh, yeah. Changing the shipping industry as.


Head Shot

Gordana Ilic

Host