The Wavemakers Podcast

Emily in Singapore: Navigating Maritime, Empathy, and Change!

• BetterSea • Season 3 • Episode 5

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This episode of The Wavemakers Podcast features Emily Dove, Regional Sales Manager for ASEAN and Middle East at TECO Chemicals and one of the Top 100 Women in Shipping. 

Emily talkes about her shift from UK-based PR roles to senior commercial and sales positions in maritime, culminating in her latest vibrant presence in Singapore. Hear all about her brave pivots that brought her to shipping, adapting to Singaporean business culture, the value of empathy, diversity, and continuous learning in global shipping. 

This episode is a must-hear for you if you are navigating shipping or looking for extra motivation to take that professional leap of faith! 

Enjoy the conversation!

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📩 Have questions or comments? Feel free to reach out via email at gordana.ilic@bettersea.tech

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Wave Makers podcast, where we feature the stories of the people driving the change in maritime at the intersection of shipping, decarbonization and digitalization. My guest today started her academic career in history, politics and communication and then moved her roles between marketing, PR, communications and sales and navigated her way through shipping in various roles. But I think this is a very important role, and I think through that kind of a role, you live many lives of those you work with. She's also one of the top 100 women in shipping. And please help me welcome Emily Tow. Thank you so much for having me. It's a real pleasure to be here. Thank you also for making the time. Interestingly, the first time we spoke is when you reached out to me to talk about work, and then we got on a call and I was in tears because my dog died. And I was really surprised how you said, okay, just take a moment. Like scrape the agenda. Like, do you want to talk about it? So I was really touched and I wanted to thank you for that. Of course. No, it's, uh, it's important to hold the, you know, the points of being empathetic in this industry. You know, at times we're very much focused on what we just have to work and we just have to power through all of this. But I always think vulnerability actually is such a strength and it's such a power. And it other people will empower you when you show sometimes that vulnerability as well. And what can come out of it can be so different when you do go down that path. Um, so I think it's very important to show empathy still. And we, you know, we're we're a human business as well, still in maritime. And I'm sure we'll get on to more of that very soon. But we, you know, it's people and we're we're buying into people. We're selling into people. We're working as people as well. So it's a very connected industry, and it's just very important to still have that. The empathy and the sympathy at times. Um, and, you know, actually having that element of care makes you also want to work harder for each other and collaborate more. So it's great for that. I briefly mentioned some of the roles that we like to identify ourselves with. Right. But how would you describe yourself away from these roles? I mean, I would say I'm a communications and commercial professional in maritime now. Um, but as you mentioned earlier, I started my career, you know, reading English and politics and history, and it was a lot of written subjects because that was my strength as a as a teenager and at school. So I was always sort of advised to to stick on that path of having these written subjects. And that was at my core. And through that, what sort of careers then can you have? So journalism was positioned to me quite early on, and I grew up watching films and reading books and reading magazine articles and kind of aspiring to be a reporter or a journalist, someone that's, you know, gets to see the world working in a glamorous sort of industry like fashion. And that was what was positioned to me at the time. So when it was at the point of choosing universities, I thought, well, maybe I should read something like communications, media and business just to keep the landscape open a little more and not be too segmented in that one thing because although I'm being told this is what I'm good at. Is it actually the right thing? And can I decide that at 16, 17 years old? So luckily I had that mindset and I went into university doing that quickly, realized, oh, maybe I don't want a career in journalism. There's not too much money involved with it. It's a completely different landscape to what was positioned to me growing up. And I was in that era where digitalization was really kicking off and changing all these industries. Magazines were no longer being printed. Everybody's turning to other mediums, and I felt a little bit lost, actually, at that point. And I thought, okay, journalism isn't for me. And there's a natural segue from journalism into public relations, which I had been made aware of again as a teenager through work experience and family friends. So whilst at university, I thought, okay, maybe this is an industry I can pivot into. So did that and worked part time for a local company whilst I was studying in bath, and through that I thought, okay, this is something I'm good at. This is my skill set, this is where I can do account management. I can work with different companies, different people. I can keep it local and regional, or I could also see a future where it's broader than that. So I started my career there, and I think I got 22 and I was working with a regional B2C agency. B2C is not for me. I will just say, I, I just, I, I don't know why just did it give me purpose. And I'm really a person that believes in that value of having purpose in your role and creating an impact and really working collaboratively with others and just having a broader spectrum, maybe, and an end goal, a really big end goal. And this is where Blue Communications then became clear to me, and there was a job opportunity there to be on a very similar track to what I was doing already, but in a much different industry to anything I'd ever known. And, you know, my my entrance then into shipping was through this, um, through this company and through this role. And from there I was, um, on that track of, you know, doing public relations and, you know, you get entrances into, into marketing and comms more broadly in reputation management and crisis management, all these elements. So for four years, that's what I was doing. And I followed the natural trajectory, that is with a PR career and with a company, an agency like this. And but again, I kind of got to this point and I thought is this, is this it? What more can I do? What more can I deliver? What more can this company in this industry do for me as well? So another pivot kind of came at this point and I was sort of brave, I suppose. And speaking up to my line manager, Alastair Pettigrew, who is the MD at the company. And I said, I would really love to have a commercial role here. I have a hunger for like seeking out new opportunities and speaking to people and building relationships. And I know I've been going on this trajectory in PR, but I can see myself just offering more, and I see this gap in the in the business. And coincidentally, they were looking for they were thinking the same thing at the same time. So timing was perfect, really. And then this opportunity came up that I could be the business development lead for the company. And with that, some other responsibilities came in in terms of being responsible for the company's own marketing and media buying and planning, which is a kind of a trade advertising solution. So again, with that, I managed to to pivot and did that for for a year and a half, just over a year and a half. And I was really enjoying the role and I thought, I've made such a, you know, a great transition here. And it's all the skills I've known for so long, but I never thought I could do that. I never thought I could pivot into it, and I never thought then what would come today in that I'm working, you know, as a regional sales manager for Tyco Chemicals in Singapore. And I've got this fantastic opportunity to join this global industry, this global company, which specializes in marine chemicals for cleaning and emission control and maintenance and engine room. And I've had this incredible chance to to move halfway around the world to work in an industry that now I'm actually very proud to work with and kind of feel at home with that and feel so settled and comfortable with the whole transition because of the people around me and what's been positioned as a new career to me. And I'm just very, very grateful to those people and to my my now managing partner of our company. Gaurav, who's given me this opportunity and saw something in me I maybe didn't see in myself at the time, that 100 women in shipping has the younger version of. You ever think that that would be the recognition you carry? Absolutely not. And yeah, it's, you know, taking on this this, um, this opportunity with you. It's been a lovely reflective time as well to, you know, look back and think of, well, how has my how is my career come to this? And no, never did I imagine in my teenage years that I would be in this industry. And, you know, I think for a lot of people, we're not really, uh, shipping isn't really apparent to us. So I grew up in the countryside in Oxfordshire. I went to university not far from there in bath, and I was never really introduced to to do shipping. We didn't have family, friends in the industry, you know. My thought of it was, well, it's container ships and yachts, and I'd happily be sitting on a yacht at sea. Um, but that was kind of my, my knowledge and experience, um, of the maritime industry. So, yeah, when I first heard about it, which was through the job, as I mentioned it, it really did actually kind of think I took a step back and I thought, wow, okay, this is not glamorous as what I was thinking I would be doing. Um, in terms of I was thinking of going into publishing and PR and, you know, working for fashion brands and, but here's this industry that's facing real technical challenges and real issues, but real opportunity as well. And I saw this technical industry and this international business. And I thought I want a piece of that. And so I'm so proud that I've, you know, been able to serve it almost as it's been serving me and supporting me and never yes did I think that I would now be recognized. Um, as much as I have. And and again, coming from a position of public relations, you're supporting other people mostly. And now here I am again, because of the path that I've luckily been on. I'm now one of those people that gets to speak out. And I do have a voice. And shipping has given me that. The people in shipping have given me that. And I didn't think I'd ever be in a position of that sort of not even power, but just opportunity. Right? And to be showcased hopefully one day as a as a leader and to inspire the next generation and hopefully through more conversation with you today as well, hopefully can do that and put out to people the pathways that are within shipping and what's within their capabilities. There's something for you in maritime. Um, I think it's quite brave of you. You took quite some leaps. You know, it sounds from the story that. Okay. You know, when they happen and that led to another. But it was always your decision to be brave and switch industries and continents now. And what would you say is your superpower? Good question. I think linking back to the start of this conversation as well, empathy and adaptability. I would say I've always been passionate about connecting people and ideas and coming together as a collective and having an end goal that we can all reach together. So I also grew up playing quite a lot of sport, and hockey was my main sport, field hockey. For all those listening who were from colder countries and maybe think ice hockey, but no, mine was field hockey in the UK. And through that and playing team sport, that really grounded me also as a child and as a teenager and help me to realize when you come together as a team and and as people, it's incredible what you can achieve. And that feeling not just of winning, by the way, it's it's not even that at all. So even when you lose what you learn together and how you get through that together, it's an incredible thing. And I was lucky enough to kind of experience that as a, as a teenager in my 20s. And I've always brought that forward as well. And seeing those parallels from playing that sport and how it can be brought into working environments. And with that, I played hockey with both men and women. And I think, again, I saw from the young age that impact of having that diversity, having men and women and being able to come together, and it was a matter of disregard of your gender. Didn't matter where you came from, your background didn't matter. All that mattered was you were there as a team player to support, to lead and to get to that end goal and achieve it together. And I think, again, it just taught me such a valuable lesson at such a young age. And it also taught me, you know, how to be a good leader, how you need to listen and listen deeply. And I think that also then links back to your question of what is my superpower? And I think it is that ability when the empathy comes in, but it's being able to listen, hear what people's challenges are here, what their strengths are, their opportunities are. How can I also pivot myself at times to adapt better to that person? And now living in a new continent, it is a new way of doing business that you have to learn about also. And and what an incredible journey though, to be able to experience, you know, how businesses and people operate in Europe, in the US and now in Asia, and there are cultural differences and there are things to be aware of. And it wouldn't I would not have got to this point if it wasn't for us in Isn't sorry. It wouldn't have got to knowing that if it wasn't for this point of now being here. And I think just having that level of adaptive nerf is important. And I really do cherish that and cherish though the patience of other people. I wouldn't say I was naturally a patient person a few years ago, but something that shipping has has helped me with actually, is to become more so because an out of respect also for other people having patience for me because I am in a point still where I have a lot to learn and I've come into now a new market, new countries, new people. So I'm very respectful and appreciative of people who are allowing so much patience on me whilst I'm in this early phase of learning. And again, that's something that I hope next time we sit down and you ask me, what's my superpower? I'm hoping it will be patience. I shared that lesson from shipping. Also. You mentioned the cultural Shock. Is there some funny story of Emily in Singapore? Or is that so? It's been. Yeah. It's been an incredible like time so far. And it's gone very fast, though, I will say. And it's another point of reflection. And again, it's opportunities like this that help you to realize you just stop for a minute and think, oh wow, look how far I've come, but look how quickly this time has gone as well. And just make sure that you're always giving back and delivering this impact. I think in terms of a funny story, it's probably just with my, my colleagues and my learning periods of being like, okay, why is it how do I greet people here? And literally with one of them going through the whole process and pretending of, well, this is how you should do it. This is how people like to be received in Asia. Because although I've been before, it was mostly with events and you've got people from all over the world coming in, so it's actually still dealing with people outside of Asia, even though, funnily enough, you are here. Um, but no. So it's just kind of having those. I was having little practices before, so that's probably one of the funniest things that has happened, because I just genuinely wasn't quite sure how to approach people and how people want to be approached here. So I did have to ask a few friends here for that. Back to learnings. Also, I think now you're probably learning a lot about chemicals. Yes. And with that, a lot of technical stuff. Yes. Um, how has that shift been so at times? Of course. Challenging. But I just remind myself every time, if I get into that point of feeling, I'm not understanding this. Actually, no. Look how far I've already come and look at the conversations I'm already having. And I think it's important to learn off of different mediums. So it's really important to almost lock yourself in a room and put yourself to the side and just get into it just on your own. Learn the way you need to learn. So for me, I'm a note taker, which probably stems from the times of doing history and English. And the way of revising was to just take short notes and every time condense them smaller and smaller. So I just essentially was left with a buzz word, and then that buzz word in my head would unlock. Then this whole like chapter or whole part of that area that I needed to to remember for the exams or for coursework or whatever it was. So that way of learning has always been quite good for me. So even in this job, I've just put myself to the side and learned that way. So I've taken out my notes and condense them down. So I've just got those buzzwords that are left as triggers in my mind of and unlocking then the further information on it. But it's also important to take up the other mediums as well. And I think one of the best ways of learning is conversations with people. So it's going and speaking with your team internally, but, you know, not trying to. I think also important to kind of gather all your questions at once and really position them in the best way possible to that person you're delivering them to, and not to sometimes ask too many questions, but also to get them at the right time where they're in the right mindset also to support you. So again, I think that's where that superpower of empathy maybe comes in in thinking, okay, how does this person want to be received? When is a good time to to go to them and ask about it? And um, again I think from that learning take that and adapt it also into client meetings. And it's okay to say to people like, I am new, I am learning, and I may have some questions along the way, and I'd be very grateful for you to help me. And again, shipping is very open to that. And I found that throughout the experience of moving here, the openness of people to to meet and to have these conversations and to answer questions because they want to share that collective knowledge, because they know it's going to be mutually beneficial also. Um, so again, I think it's don't live in fear of asking questions sometimes, but also just make sure you are asking the right ones. And of course, if you can try and answer it yourself first, or try and think of an answer first, and then you can go to then the right people at the right time, position it in the right way, and then you can either validate your answer or find out why your answer maybe wasn't quite right. But yeah, there is a lot to to learn from me. And again, like I said, I like to use these different mediums of reading and listening and writing and conversation. And again, I think it's the it's the strength in combining all of those elements together. Um, but also just getting down and doing the job, I think is the best way of learning. So just being proactive and listening to strategies that are around you, the strategies that are in place, sometimes adapting those remaining agile is important, and just owning what you know now and know that the rest will come. And over time you will be great and you will have all this knowledge. But it's okay at the start to not know everything and to ask questions and to admit I don't know everything right now, but over time I will. Yes, most of the people in shipping have experienced some sort of that move and getting into the new, uh, topic. Um, from your first observer perspective, right? First, you are witnessing the journey and the industry from kind of an outsider, and now you're more, uh, deeper in. Have you seen it changing over the past, I guess like five years or so. Mhm. Absolutely. So when I first found shipping it was 2019. So we were just approaching the IMO 2020 sulfur cap. And even with that, from the conversations that I was hearing from my office through clients, it was all about how do we tackle this. We know we've already put steps in place, we've already got some technologies available, but how do we ensure that compliance is met? Because we know that there's this start date, but it's a continuation after that already. That early entrance just was very inspiring because it was a very collaborative approach that we witnessed for that regulation. And then of course, since we've we've seen the IMO adopting 2030 and 2050 regulations, we've seen, uh, the, EU adopting its own regulations as well, with fully maritime, as you guys well know. And we've know you've seen all these regulations coming together and everybody understanding together collectively. Well, what does this mean for all of us and what does this mean for the the broader industry and for the world? And again, it was just it's such an incredible industry because shipping connects us all. And again, that just brings so much purpose, I think, into into my life especially. But I think for all of us. But again, from those early days of seeing what the industry is doing and how it tackles these elements, I think we saw a real mind mindset shift when it comes to doing tackling these things together, because I think in the past everyone maybe was kind of on their own, and this is just from my experience. But maybe people were just dealing with things more independently. Whereas I think in the past five years and six years. Sorry. We've seen a lot more collaboration and innovative ideas. We've seen new companies and new people emerging with their ideas, with their innovation and, you know, bringing up these smarter, more efficient ways of doing things from their experience, maybe from other sectors or as newcomers, you know, emerging young talent and the younger generation and what they bring to the table, but also not forgetting the many first movers in shipping that were brave. Also in taking some very important first steps to provide learning lessons for the rest of the industry. And you know they cannot be disregarded. Some of them would have been failures. Some of them would not have seen the, you know, the benefits maybe per se, of taking that at that point. But we all have to remember that importance of sometimes failing as well. And Slight side note. One of my favorite F1 drivers, Niki Lauda, and I remember watching him take an acceptance speech for an award and he was saying, you know, obviously it's great winning in Formula One. It's what everybody wants, right? But how important is it to lose because of the learnings that you get for yourself and for others and the pathways that you put out? And that kind of always stuck with me. And I bring it now into that shipping context, like I've just mentioned, because it is important to go through that journey and, and to openly and collaboratively share this information and exchange that knowledge, because that is how we will continue to tackle and meet and exceed all these environmental regulations and other elements that that we're faced with. So I've really seen that shift, I suppose, in my kind of short time in shipping. It's only been six years and there's a lot more to come, and I'm very excited to see what's to come and to see all these different players coming together and again, from, from the even the industry that I'm in now, you are working with so many different people. There's not just one kind of core stakeholder group. It's a collective of people and companies and segments. And again, they all have their unique challenges. They all have their unique opportunities. And again, it's just taking learnings from all of those. And again, seeing how you can apply that to then different ones. And and again, I think that's something that younger generation I think is very good at doing as well in, in learning from other situations and bringing it in and sharing that. I think there's a very open, collaborative spirit naturally from those. But I think in shipping as well, we're seeing that dial shift and it's also going more in that direction too. Mhm. I'll take you up on the conversion of failure into success. Do you have any of your own examples when you thought something was a failure? Yes, I thought about this. Actually, I might give a few scenarios. Um, probably. Firstly, when I was 1718, thinking I want to be a journalist and realizing actually journalism is not for me, but now what do I do? I've been I've grown up being told this is what I'm good at. I don't know, another pathway unless I'm a history teacher. Um, so that was maybe the first recollection of it. Then I entered PR through the agency serving the maritime industry. And again, four years into that career and I felt, well, I've got this under my belt. What more can I offer? What more can I do? And again, at that point, I did kind of feel like I know I could continue in PR and there's this natural trajectory to it, but I don't think I want to go down that pathway and kind of follow suit of what a lot of other people have done. I think I want to try and create something new and be a change kind of that pathway that is so natural to so many people but just didn't feel right to me. And again, at that point, when I pivoted and I became a business development and commercial person again, in that moment, I didn't know if this would be a success or not. And I think six months into the job, it it was challenging, but I wasn't really seeing much reward yet. And then all of a sudden it was just like a light bulb moment and everything just clicked into place. And I realized, no, this was one of the best decisions I have made, and I'm so grateful that I was able to stay with the company, and they enabled me to make that change. And and then again, when this opportunity for a new job came up, which was very out of the blue, and this company, um, Taco, they saw something in me that I didn't even see in myself, and they offered a full commercial, full sales role to me. And I thought, wow, someone has seen something in me that I didn't even see her myself. And I've come from this communications background, so surely that's what I should be staying in. And even though I pivoted my career, I was still with the communications agency. And again, it just sort of unlocked something within myself. And I just thought, no, that's something that I can do and I should do, and it could be a failure. I'm not even scared anymore. And again, that's just something that the shipping industry has helped me to realize, and that the people within it have helped me to realize that don't be afraid of that failure, because it probably won't happen. But even if it does, it's also that's okay, you will find something else and you will find your purpose again. And it was just such an empowering feeling actually, to have that into to to move halfway around the world by myself, not really knowing anybody here, but I wasn't scared. I was so excited at what was to come, and I was okay with the fact that this might fail and that is okay. I am sure it wouldn't be a failure. I'm sure not either. But it's good for the mind to be trained. Yeah. Of course. Um, and now a question that connects you and shipping here. There is a big port and many ships as you're landing to Singapore. Which one of these is Emily? Oh good question. I think I'm a multi-purpose vessel because of the different hats I have worn in quite a short time period. This is a six month, six month, six year career so far in maritime and I have put on many a hat, spinning a lot of plates. I've been able to to carry different loads. Pardon my pun, and continue to learn so much. And I've always followed a mantra that a friend told me when we were we were younger is you learn in your 20s and you'll earn in your 30s. And again, it just gave me the opportunity to hold on to the fact that it's not it's okay if I'm not seeing these huge successes or huge rewards in my bank account and in other ways. And this is the most important time to to educate yourself and to educate others and to inspire others and to give back to your communities and to continue, of course, doing that in your 30s. But it just took off that little bit of pressure and again, enabled me to make the changes that I have and to pivot into the careers that I have. And I've always just hold on to that mantra. But now I am 29, so next year I will be 30. And now I think, okay, now his work is about to start. I'm only just getting started. And how exciting is that? Yeah. That's interesting. What do you expect from the 30s? Well, a lot of a lot of collaboration, a lot of success. Giving back to my communities, as I just mentioned, is so important to me. And, you know, we shipping is a male dominated industry. But again, the dial is shifting and things are changing. There are so many incredible people out there that are pushing for gender diversity. They're they're challenging that norm of that gender imbalance. They're associations. There are companies. There are people. There's a lot happening in in that area as well. And I think it's important to to reflect on this and to work with these associations and these people and these companies and to give what you can. So whether that's your skill set, what you've done with your career. So for me, it could be supporting with communications or event planning, for example. Or it's just being part of those communities and again, being vulnerable at times and speaking up and speaking out. And again, having platforms that you've created here in allowing people to speak and to give them a voice and to share these stories, that's what it should all be about. And I want to continue that in my 30s and continue, hopefully to inspire new people to join us in shipping. I mean, as I've explained, I've come from a communications PR background, never knew anything about shipping. And here, here I am today sitting here on a leading maritime podcast. There are so many opportunities in maritime. There are so many job roles, and there's a job for everyone from whatever your background, whatever you think you might be interested in. And I just think again, collectively, it's important to to share that and show that. And one way I do feel about inspiring people is to show and not always tell. And it's something I do with my my younger sister as well, is you can't sometimes tell your siblings or your friends or your people what to do. So instead, don't tell them. Show them. Show them the pathways that are available to them. So it's always something I've been really passionate about. And again, that was something that I did in Moving to Singapore is I showed my younger sister this is something that you can do. You're so capable of doing it if you want to make change in your life, if you want a new opportunity, you can go and get it because you are capable of so much and it might be in a new sector, it might be in a new industry. And that's okay. There's something there for you if you go after it. So making that shift and she made a shift, and she's also starting a new role in a slightly new industry and a new city. So again, it's just I'm so proud of her for doing that. And no, I do feel proud of myself too, because I was able to support in that, in showing, well, this is what people are capable of. And again, I just I would love for maritime to have a bigger voice. I think just in, in general and to others outside of it as well to, to show the prominence of it, the, the importance of it, you know, how it is connecting all of us and the power that it gives and the purpose it delivers back. So I would love to be able to do more and again, hopefully in my 30s, I'm able to do that more so as well. And uh, if you were to make a movie about your life so far or the life you wanted to become, uh, how would you name it? Oh, it's going to have to be something like Emily in Asia or Emily in Singapore on the one of Emily in Paris. Uh, because so many people have been messaging me with that and they've outscored Paris and put me so it's insert here or Netflix. Um, pending approval. Um, so something like that, probably just because it's already kind of got the brand association there. Um, so I can piggyback off of that. And would you have any questions for me? Oh, I suppose on your journey so far, what has been the most empowering thing for you, and has it been with just for yourself, or has it been with the whole company and with your partner, and what has probably been the most impactful thing on you? Oh, I wish I had this question before because I, you know, I sometimes ask these things what has been the most to max. And then ten minutes in, he's still thinking, I'm like, okay, does it have to be the most but like one in the top of it? Uh. Well, it's been in Mesquite was the moment when I was pitching one of the projects that we incubated from scratch in the innovation funnel, and then I was pitching it to like CEO minus two level to get the budgets for it to be deployed on a pilot. And, uh, we've worked so hard, like the teams and myself, uh, to prepare the whole case. And like, just the day before that, it looked like things have gone the other way around, you know, like we were like, well, what's this number about? And, uh, but when I pitched and when we found that it was approved, that made me really proud. Uh, I was like, wow, I can't believe, like, we're making impact. Yeah. Um, so that was one. And then the other part was also when we made a decision to just start, I was very brave. And I'm still brave of that moment. Uh, and now, like two years in, when you actually see that we managed to capture the clients and that we delivered what we said in the beginning, we would like the end to end product and that it's actually like, happening, you know, people are using it and it's pretty wild, um, to see how like two years ago, it was just a thought like, oh, I wonder if we can. But now it's a reality with all these ups and downs along the way and pivots and all of that. I'm very proud of these moments and the determination and also the kind of the resilience and bravery that we've had in ourselves and that we decided to trust when things seem difficult and people trusting in you as well. And look how that will look at your journey and look what you've achieved. And again, it's it's because of your the impact that people know you can provide. Your openness your transparency. And that's been that's enabled trust hasn't it. And and again being able to convey yourself your business, your your proposition in such a way and it unlocks in people's minds what that really means and what it means to them and, and the broader industry. Thank you so much for being my guest today. Thank you. It's been such a pleasure and delight, and it's been so lovely to sit with you and get to know you better as well. So really appreciate your time and the opportunity, and I'm looking forward to following the Emily in Singapore journey. Thank you. So I'm tuning in for episode 100 to reflect Apple. You can call me up and we can set an agreement up. Yes. Thank you, thank you.

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Gordana Ilic

Host