Is Your Workplace Quietly Draining You? | Kristen Chimack

Feeling the Sunday Scaries every day? In this conversation, Anthony Craiker and Kristen Shimek—executive coach and author of The Cost of Staying—dig into what a toxic workplace really looks like, how to spot the early whispers that something’s off, and a practical path out. Kristen unpacks her Growth Through Grief Spiral (Whispers → Letting Go → Possibilities → Integration), why the stability myth keeps us stuck, and how to take baby steps toward a healthier role or a full career pivot—without blowing up your life. You’ll learn how to reconnect with your core values, build a portable personal brand and LinkedIn presence, and reframe fear with one question that changes everything: What’s the worst that could happen? If you’re burnt out, misaligned, or just hearing that inner nudge that there must be more to life and work, this episode will help you act—before your job acts on you.

Download the first chapter of Kristen's book for free: https://kristenchimack.com/the-book/ 

Follow Kristen on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kristen-chimack/

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Transcript

Interview with Kristen Chimack

Anthony: [00:00:00] Welcome everybody, to another episode of Fulfilling Work Meaningful Life. I'm your host, Anthony Craiker, and I'm excited for my guest today. Kristen Schmack, author of the Cost of Staying. Thanks for coming on the program. 

Kristen: Thank you. I'm, I'm excited to be here and excited to have a great conversation with you today.

Anthony: Absolutely. So, Kristen, before we get started can you tell us about a recent, meaningful experience that you've had? 

Kristen: Yeah, actually just a couple days ago I was, I was coming off of vacation and kind of had those, you know, vacation blues where you're trying to get motivated and you kind of are just in a weird head space.

And I had a meeting with someone who I hadn't talked to in probably a year. And the first thing when we got on the call, I was kind of just. I had low energy. She said to me, before we get started, I just need to tell you that your book has changed the trajectory of my career. Wow. And that after reading it, she realized, you know, that she.

[00:01:00] Wasn't listening to what her body and her mind were telling her. And so she had gone in just the week before and told her boss that at the end of this year she was going to be leaving and pursuing her own passion. So it was one of those moments where I was kind of feeling like, you know, nothing's maybe going as I wanted to, or are people really listening.

And it was, it was validating and it was just really awesome to kind of hear. 

Anthony: That's, that's fantastic. Yeah. That's gotta be really rewarding to ha to have that kind of experience after pouring your heart and soul into a book. Yeah. Like, like that. Well, I'm excited to talk to you about your book. I've enjoyed reading it.

It, it resonated with me. I had a similar situation, a little, a little bit different than, than you but about. 16, almost 16 years ago now. 15 and a half years, I guess. I made the decision to leave my job. It was my first job right out of law school and I'd only been there for about a year and a half and I just, I was just.

Completely miserable in the job. It wasn't necessarily like a toxic environment like you were [00:02:00] talking about in, in your situation. But but I, I had another opportunity come up and I left, and I've been with the same firm now for 15 and a half years. And so I, I, it resonated with me when I read your story.

I was like, okay, I can kind of relate to, to what you went through. So let's start for our, for our listeners out there who are maybe in a situation where. You know, maybe they're unhappy in their job. Maybe they're dealing with a toxic culture in the job. How do you know when it's time to make a change?

Kristen: I mean, I think it's different for everyone, right? And it's a lot of it because it is a financial decision as well. It can depend on, on that aspect of, of your life. But, you know, for me, and when I work with clients, one of the things that I love to start with is. Getting clear on why you're miserable or why it's not good for you.

And so I know I do a lot of work and I started with myself on the journey of getting back to kind of my core values. I know for me, I, I had lost myself, right? [00:03:00] I had worked so hard to become an executive at this large organization that one day I sort of woke up and realized, you know. Who I am and who I am at work are two very different people.

Mm-hmm. And I'd somewhat lost myself. So I like to go all the way back to just really figuring out what are your core values and what's really important to you. And what I found both with myself and in working with, with many, many clients, is that when you get clear on those core values. Not just the words, but what do they mean to you?

You can start to really understand how you're disconnected when it comes to, you know, your, your, whether it's your professional life or a relationship you're in. It can start to become pretty. Painfully clear why maybe you're so miserable at work or having to show up in a different way at work or in a relationship.

So I always tell people, let's kind of get grounded and rediscover who you are. And then you can, once you kind of have those pieces, you can decide and kind of look at, maybe if I make a little, a few [00:04:00] changes, I can stay where I am and be happier. Or, you know what, there's just no saving in this. It's time for me to, to make it.

Pretty big change. 

Anthony: Yeah. Yeah. You've talked about working in a toxic culture at, at, at work. I, I, toxic is a word that gets thrown around a lot these days. And I, I think it's important for the context to kind of define it, define to the word toxic for us in this context. And what are some of the red flags that people should look for.

Kristen: Yeah. So for me, how I would define toxic is really an environment where one, you, you don't feel like you can be yourself. You cannot, you know, you don't feel like you can speak up or express yourself, but also an environment that's just filled with negativity. Mm-hmm. Whether it's rumors or gossip or you find that you can't trust anybody.

It's sort of all of those things together kind of create an environment that. You know, honestly, it's that pit in the stomach. I don't wanna go in there. Yeah. Is sort of how I would define, [00:05:00] define toxic. You know, it, it takes such a toll on you both personally, physically, mentally that that's when it really becomes a situation that you need to pay attention to what's happening and why it's happening and, and try and figure out what can you do to.

You know, keep your sanity in it while you're in it. But then also prepare to exit it. 

Anthony: Yeah. Yeah. When I left that job you know, 15 plus years ago that I was talking about, one of the, one of the things that I noticed after a little while and think my wife helped point it out too, thankfully. But you know, I would come home and.

I would just sit and watch tv. I wasn't engaging with my kids, you know, it was, it just felt depressed. I didn't have energy. And so I think those, maybe those kinds of signs are, or something to look out for, whether it's a toxic work environment or just a situation where you're just unhappy in the work that you do.

Right. 

Kristen: Yeah. I know for me, right, some of the signs were just driving into [00:06:00] work. I was thinking. I really don't wanna go to work. Yeah. Or, you know, you get, you're parked in the parking lot and you're like, I don't wanna get out of this car. But the other big signs for me is I, I started to realize I don't think I trust anybody here.

Anthony: Mm.

Kristen: You know, I didn't feel like there was anybody I could trust or confide in. That was a really big sign for me. The other really big red flag was, realizing that there were people in the organization who knew the environment was bad. And I, and I know they knew because they would, you know, check in, how are you doing?

We know it's rough. Are you doing okay? Yeah. How can we help? But then nothing would change. Right. It was, it was one of those we know it's bad, why don't you help make it better? But we really aren't gonna do anything to help you make it better. Yeah. And that was just a, a huge red flag when I realized one day, you know what, nobody's gonna help me.

I. But me. 

Anthony: Yeah. 

Kristen: And, and that was kind of, I think at that point I had lost trust that, you know, HR would help [00:07:00] or that senior leaders would help, or when I went and talked to the CEO, that he would help. And I realized that every one of those interactions that they weren't going to help. 

Anthony: So in your book you talk about the, what you call the growth through Grief Spiral.

And, and when you talk about Spiral Spiral, it's spiraling up, not spiraling down. Right. Tell, walk us through that, that process of the growth through Grief Spiral. 

Kristen: Yeah. So the growth through Grief Spiral was something that, you know, one of the things that I noticed when I was going through the process of thinking about leaving my corporate career and then even post.

You know, the, the two years that have followed since there was definitely a, a grieving process, but it wasn't grief like when I lost somebody necessarily in my life. And it definitely wasn't a linear process, which is how I landed on Spiral. So there's four stages in the growth through Grief Spiral that I talked about in the book.

The first one. Is called the Whispers. And I think I might have mentioned that a little bit earlier, but the whispers are [00:08:00] all those signs and those internal things that are going on that you need to start to pay attention to. And so often we write them off as, oh, I didn't get enough sleep last night, or I'm just stressed about this big deadline that's coming up.

Or, you know, I had something bad for lunch that's making my stomach turn. But it's those sort of physical signs that I, I'd often say the physical signs come first. We just. Attribute them to other things, but it's the knot in the stomach. My jaw's clenched in a meeting, or every time I have a meeting with my boss, I, you know, I start to sweat or get tense.

And it's also the mental signs where you're just exhausted, right? You, you don't know how to push through things. You're depressed you're sad. You don't trust people around you. So it's all those internal things that are happening to you that are the whispers. And sometimes they can be, you know.

They're the thoughts in the middle of the day, like, there's gotta be more to life than this. Or surely I could do something else. Or I would often find myself thinking how many days until I can officially [00:09:00] retire. You know, and, and they would start to be initially just little whispers or maybe once a week.

But they would grow to where I would think about them all the time, or they would almost scream at me inside my head. So that's the first phase of the whispers. The second phase is letting go. And it's learning to let go of all those things that you thought would, you know, make you feel successful or the expectations you believe others have of you, you know?

So for me it was letting go of. The company that I had believed in and trusted for a 30 year career and for, you know, 25, 26 of those years was great. Yeah. It was letting go of the executive role, the title, the, the, you know, everything that comes with that. Yeah. You know, it was letting go of that, it was letting go of the expectations I thought my family had of me, my husband, my.

Brothers, sister, parents friends, all of those things you have to [00:10:00] come to terms with and learn how to let go of them, but also redefine what success looks like, which is really the third phase, which is all around possibilities. And starting to think about what could my life really, what could it be if I let go of all of these things and choose to walk away?

And that's some kind of, it's fun to think about what could be, but it's also, you know, kind of. Pulls at you quite a bit when you start to think about how am I now gonna define success if it isn't this title, it isn't this, you know, six figure paycheck and the big bonus and all that comes with that.

What does success look like moving forward for me? And then the last stage is integration. How do you, once you've learned all of those things and listen to the whispers, and you're starting to come to grips with letting go of things. And redefining success and kind of getting excited about the possibilities.

How do you pull all that together and integrate it in a way that allows you to let go and allows you to sort of grieve the past, but be excited about the future all at the same [00:11:00] time. 

Anthony: Yeah. Love it. Yeah. In the book, you talk about a, a conversation that you were having with your husband that it was kind of an emotional conversation and he asked you what's the worst that could happen?

And I, I thought, I thought, what a great question, right. To, to kind of reframe it. How, how did that question help you reframe your own situation and make the decision to leave the, your corporate. Life and your executive position. 

Kristen: Yeah, I mean, it was a big question. It was one of those that sort of stops you like, well, what really is the worst that could happen?

I mean, nobody's gonna die, right? Nobody's gonna, nothing crazy like that is gonna happen. And so you, it helped me really kind of put into perspective that. This is a decision that I can make and it, and I know right at the, if I make this decision, I'm gonna be happier, which means I'm gonna show up better for in my marriage, in my relationships, with friends, with family and I'm, you know, ultimately going to move towards doing something that's in alignment with my values.

The [00:12:00] worst thing that could happen, you know, when we. Played through that conversation was, you know, you run outta money and you, you know, you can go to the extreme of, you lose your house and, you know, your relationship falls apart, all of those things. 

Anthony: Yeah. 

Kristen: But in the end, what really it came down to, the worst that would happen is I would go back and get a corporate job again.

Whether I, it probably wouldn't be at that or the organization I was at, but it could get another corporate job. And when I started to really think about it that way. That allowed me to then think about, okay, we've, we've built financial security. I'm fortunate in that my husband had a good job. And I'd also for a couple of years been preparing for either an early retirement or a departure.

So I had built what I called my freedom fund. So I knew that I had a year and a half to two year runway that I could work with before I would need to, you know. Make the decision to pursue another corporate, corporate job. And so, you know, when you started to plan for it and kind of lay it all out, the worst that would happen would be in a year or two, I would be looking [00:13:00] for another corporate gig.

Yeah. 

And thankfully that's, that hasn't happened and isn't gonna happen. So that's good. 

Anthony: That's great. That's great. Yeah. The, the subtitle of your book is Find Your Courage, choose Yourself and Discover What Awaits In Life and Career. Talk about cur finding your courage for a moment to speak to the, our listeners, like, you know, somebody's in that situation where they're, they're, they're hearing the whisperings that they've got that pit in their stomach when they're driving into work.

How do they find the courage to to leave? 

Kristen: Yeah, it's hard. It's, I won't lie. It's not an easy thing to do. What I really found and what I, what I tell those that I work with is finding your courage. Doesn't have to be the ultimate. I quit my job today. Finding your courage for me was very much about taking.

I, you know, baby steps along the way to get to the point where I could ultimately leave my job. And so, you know, often I, I work with folks to say, okay, what's one, you know, you, you [00:14:00] know, you're not happy where you are. You know that based on your values, that it's just not a match and that it probably never will be a match.

So what can we do today that will may move you one step forward to. Ultimately making a change. And sometimes that change is right, still staying with the organization you're in or in a similar job, but maybe a different boss or a different team. Sometimes it's taking a step back, so I, you know, I worked with one client, she was an executive and she moved back to an independent contributor role.

Sometimes it does mean leaving. And so it's really working through what is it that ultimately is going to make you happy. And so looking at where you're disconnected and, and what isn't working. And then starting to make a plan. So that could look everything for me. What it looked like is I started to have an idea based on my values, where I was in misalignment with my current company.

And so I knew whatever I was gonna do next, I would want it to be something that was transparent, that [00:15:00] filled my bucket from a passions and interest standpoint that I had flexibility over and freedom with. And so I started to just brainstorm, you know, so for a month I just took time to write down what do I think I would love to do.

And then I was really deliberate about connecting with people who do that today. And building a network outside of, you know, my current company at the time or my current realm of, of connections to start to just explore baby steps. How could I get involved? How could I help? And when you start to do that and you start to really be deliberate about your approach, it becomes easier to then take the big leap of, you know, I'm gonna quit my job and go do X. So I tell people, start small. It could be a side gig, it could be, you know, you volunteer somewhere for a while and that turns into something. But the key piece is really getting clear on why are you miserable today?

What's missing and what would fill that space? 

Anthony: I love that you advocate the baby step [00:16:00] approach to this. 'cause it, it, it could be really, really terrible for somebody to, you know, walk away, you know, from reading your book and say, okay, I'm, I'm calling in today and I'm telling my boss I'm never coming back.

Right. That could, that could create a lot of problems in their life. Yeah. Yeah. And so I, I love that you, you advocate for thinking it through strategically and. Allowing yourself the time to work towards leaving and not feeling pressured to just. Leave immediately. I think that's, that's a really healthy way to, to approach it.

Kristen: Yeah. I know for me, you know, I, I probably, I tell people, you know, I had planned to work till 62 at that organization, and then it's, you know, the organization had changed. I clearly had changed, so then it was, well, I worked till 58. And then I adjusted it to, I'll work till 55. Right. And each one of those adjustments, I, I had started to put more money into 401k, right?

I'd started to do things to prepare for an earlier and earlier departure. Then when I turned 50 that's when I, the [00:17:00] whisper started to get really loud and I started to think I'm not. Gonna make it to 55, so, so what do I need to do? Right. And that's where, you know, my husband and I, there, there's huge financial components to all of it, but Sure.

Right. We started to, let's take one less vacation, let's, you know, eat at home more. Whatever those things were to put a little bit more money aside every month in anticipation of an earlier departure. But even once I'd officially decided I'm leaving before this year's out you know, I made that decision in my mind.

It still took me nine months to actually sort of. Pull that trigger. Just to make sure that, you know, for me it was super important. I didn't wanna leave someplace that I wasn't happy to go to a place I wasn't happy. Yeah. And so, you know, finding and giving myself the time and space to figure those things out, super important.

Anthony: Excuse me. What would you say to somebody who's worried? Just, just worried about. Stability in, in their job, right? They're, you know, they feel like [00:18:00] they're in a stable job and that it makes logical sense to stay. 'Cause I, I kind of think of stability in, in today's working world as a, a little bit of a myth, right?

Because, I mean, we've seen people lose their jobs after years of working for. Major corporations, right? That all of a sudden they're in financial trouble and there's mass layoffs, right? And they, they think that the job was stable and, and it's not. And so in my mind it's kind of like, it doesn't really matter what your job is.

Stability isn't, isn't really a, a thing. So what, what are your thoughts on that? 

Kristen: Oh, I agree. And, and I was with an organization that most people started with and stayed with their entire career. Mm-hmm. So I had sort of what I would say the ultimate stability myth in, in my mind. And so I, I work with people a lot because one of the big aha moments I had was a couple years before I officially pulled the trigger and left when I would look at, for instance, my LinkedIn.

Platform. [00:19:00] My profile. It was like a walking commercial for the company that I worked for. 

Anthony: Mm-hmm. 

Kristen: And that was pretty what I started to then think about. Whether it was looking for another job or what if, you know, I leave, what would I do next? I started to realize everything I've built wasn't about me and my personal brand.

It was about the organization. 

Anthony: Yeah. 

Kristen: And that's where I, I work with a lot of people, whether it's college students who are just. Entering the workforce or people who are in the workforce and have worked with the same company for, for a long period of time, or just have ignored LinkedIn. I've worked with them a lot to help them kind of figure out what is your personal brand?

What do you want people to know about you? Whether it's you as an independent contributor, you as a, you know teacher, you as a doctor, you as a lawyer, you as a. Leader, what do you want people to know about you? And make sure that you are building that personal brand along the way because you never know what could happen in the economy or at [00:20:00] your organization or just right as you change and evolve.

You get a different leader and you just don't gel. It could happen overnight and. All of a sudden waking up and realizing I have nothing on LinkedIn, I have no connections, I haven't built my network I haven't spent time cultivating relationships outside of where I work. Then it becomes pretty daunting.

Yeah. To find kind of that next step. And so when. I work with people a lot on the effective networking, how to build your network outside of your current, current organization. How to show up on LinkedIn, what to even talk about. You know, that's not what you do every day. To build that network is just one of the things I've learned was super important in my transition.

Anthony: What about our identity? Because a lot of times our, a lot of, a big part of our identity, tho those of us who you know, have careers professionals, I is our, is our job, is our career. And so one of the, [00:21:00] one of the costs of leaving, if you will, might be that it affects our, our sense of identity of who, who we are.

As you've worked with people who have made that transition, how have you helped them through that process? 

Kristen: Yeah, it's hard, right? Because so often, and I find this a lot with Gen Xers you know, we get really wrapped up in the, the title and, and all of those things that come with it. And what we do all day at work.

One of the things that I've found has been super helpful is going back to core values. And I know I've said that before, but I usually start all coaching engagements with a couple key questions and they are. What did you love to do when you were five? What did you love to do when you were 12 and what did you love to do when you were 25?

Anthony: Mm-hmm. 

Kristen: And kind of reground people. 'cause so often I've yet to have an experience where what someone loved to do at those younger ages isn't what they actually love to do to today. What I find most often is they don't do those things as much anymore. And so I, I [00:22:00] work a lot with, okay, let's get grounded on what did you used to really love to do when you were younger?

How is that showing up in your life today? How does that show up with your core values? And then what do you wanna create forward? And so sometimes it's, it's almost less about letting go, although you do let go, but it's more about rediscovering. 

Anthony: Mm-hmm.

Kristen: Who you were, what you've maybe lost along the way because of just right.

The stressors, the pressure, all of the day-to-day demands that happen in life. And then how do you create something moving forward that kind of feeds. Those things that you really love to do. Yeah. Versus you have to do. 

Anthony: Yeah. And that's, that can be an exciting process, that process of discovery and redefining success and redefining our, our identity.

So, yeah. That, that's great. As we kind of wrap up here, talk, talk a little bit about the, this process of integration that, that last phase of the growth through grief Spiral. How, how, how does somebody. You know, go through that process of integration. What [00:23:00] does that look like practically? 

Kristen: Yeah, practically, you know, how it looks like is that, you know, as you become clear on, on your values, your passions, your interests, what you love to do it's then looking for ways.

To integrate that in your daily life. And so, you know, sometimes that's, you know, creating a business and, and really working within that passion point. Other times it could be that, you know, you work with your current leader or your boss to say, you know, Hey, I really love to train and help people. So is there a way within my role that I can do more of that?

And so. What I found so often is once you become clear on what those things are or what will start to fill that bucket a little bit more, then it's just always keeping that present top of mind and then asking as things come across your desk like. You know, do I need to really do this? Or can I say no?

Or how can I put things around my professional day in my personal life, whether it's [00:24:00] volunteering or, you know, helping out with kids', sports teams or whatever that is, that fills your bucket. How do I build in pieces of that so that I may not be getting it at work, but I've built it in, in other respects to kind of help integrate the joy moments along with maybe some of those every day.

Mundane moment, so to speak. 

Anthony: Yeah. Yeah. That's good advice. So where can people find you and connect with you if they wanna learn more about what you do and where can they find your book? 

Kristen: Yeah, absolutely. So I'm on LinkedIn all the time. Super active out there. So love to connect with people on LinkedIn.

It's just my name, Kristen Shimek. I also, my website, you can learn more about my coaching services, which is www dot. Kristen schack.com and then my book is available in all countries on amazon.com. 

Anthony: Awesome. Awesome. So congratulations again on, on the book really great accomplishment. If you could leave our listeners today with just one takeaway, what would that be? 

Kristen: Oh my one. There's so many. Probably my one takeaway would be [00:25:00] that, you know, I'm trying to think about the best way to put it because I wanna wrap in a couple all at ones.

But I would say, you know, if you aren't happy or if you find yourself thinking, there has to be more to just take. That first step whether it's, you know, reaching out to a coach like myself to talk about it, most of us offer free sessions or it's, you know, doing some research online. Just one baby step can start that path towards, you know, I.

Making your life more fulfilling. Because, and I say I used to say this all the time from stages at work, we spend way too much time in our professional lives not to be happy. And I think sometimes we choose to settle because of the security that it may bring us financially. And so it doesn't have to be that way.

You can be happy and fulfilled all at the same time. 

Anthony: Yeah. 

Kristen: Take that first step 

Anthony: act and don't be acted upon. 

Kristen: Exactly. Yeah. 

Anthony: Wonderful. Thank you so much, Kristen, for joining us today. It's been a pleasure having you on the show. 

Kristen: Thank you. It's been great. [00:26:00]