What Your Mirror is Telling You | Tobi Ojekunle

Rushing through life but still feeling empty? In this conversation, Anthony Craiker sits down with Tobi Ojekunle, host of the Mirror Talk podcast, to explore how self-reflection, gratitude, and faith can realign your work and life with purpose. Tobi shares the origin of Mirror Talk—learning from other people’s stories so you don’t repeat their mistakes—and explains the two meanings of “mirror talk”: speaking life-giving truth to yourself and seeing your own journey reflected in others. You’ll hear simple, practical tools for getting unstuck: pause–reflect routines, gratitude as a daily practice, time blocking and habit stacking, and the power of being fully present where you are. They also dig into mid-career pivots, why “work–life balance” is often a myth, and how faith anchors a meaningful life. If you’ve felt alone, behind, or off-purpose, this episode will help you slow down, listen closely, and move forward with clarity.

Check out Mirror Talk: Soulful Conversations at https://mirrortalkpodcast.com/ 

Tobi's social media:

Facebook https://www.facebook.com/MirrorTalkPodcast

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/mirrortalk.podcast/

X https://www.twitter.com/mirrortalkTO

LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/oluwatobi-ojekunle-29bb0a76/

Pinterest https://www.pinterest.ph/valtoybob/_created/

YouTube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFj3nBFVYJhsEGciiu52eEw

TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@mirrortalkpodcast

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Transcript

Interview with Tobi Ojekunle

Anthony: [00:00:00] Welcome everybody, to another episode of Fulfilling Work Meaningful Life. I'm your host, Anthony Craiker, and I am so excited to have our guest on today. I'm joined today by Toby Ojekunle host of the popular mirror Talk podcast. Toby, it's so wonderful to have you on the show today. Thanks for joining us.

Tobi: Thank you so much, Anthony, for this opportunity to be on your plot PO podcast. I'm really grateful. I'm looking forward to sh you know, having a wonderful conversation with you on this. 

Anthony: Me too. Well, let me ask you, I gave you a heads up a little bit of a heads up. Not much of what, but let me ask you, what's the most meaningful experience you've had in the last week or so?

Tobi: Thank you so much for that. I, when you, when you gave me the up, I was like, wow, there must be, I must think of something, somebody been running. But, but then I, I thought to myself, I don't have to think so far, you know? Into the past. I, last weekend I had, I had opportunity to spend time with some of my friends.

Mm-hmm. And as a family, I, I visit in another city from where I live in Germany. And so I, I [00:01:00] arrived there Friday evening. This is Monday of, at the time of recording, I, I have the Friday evening. I then the mother told me. Oh, I have to be in church. I'm a Christian. Mm-hmm. She has to be in church that, that evening I was like, oh, okay, lemme, lemme drive you.

And she has to stay overnight and have some retreats, stuff like that. In the choir retreats. I was like, okay, lemme drive you to church and then we'll go to, you know, I'll sleep over in the church and we'll come back in the morning so that you don't have to, you know, catch the train and, you know, maybe it could be inconvenient for you to get back home early in the morning.

Yeah. So, I mean, on our way to church, we started talking and I started to learn. From our conversation, I started to learn so much the importance of time and phases of life. You know, the phase of life that we are in and with lessons that we have to learn from those phases of life and how we should not rush the time that we're in right now, or the phase of life that we're in right now.

Because if we start rushing, we could become so immature for the next phase, and then we just rode through life that way and we become frustrated because we're not prepared enough for the next phase, and we are [00:02:00] already to move on to the next. I were not satisfied, not grateful, not fulfilled from any phase of life because we were just, you know, running through life without enjoying the meaning and.

No understanding the meaning and purpose of where we are, where we are at the moment. So that, that, that conversation for me, that's 40 minutes drive. That evening, Friday evening sounds very meaningful to me right now. I mean, it's something I'm still reflecting on at this very moment. 

Anthony: That's wonderful.

What, that's a great example. I appreciate you sharing that with us. So, let's talk a little bit about Mirror Talk, so on, on your show. And I, I've listened to your show. I've really enjoyed it. It, you, you encourage self-reflection and growth and things like that. What inspired you to start that podcast and what personal transformation did it spark in your life when, when you did?

Tobi: Yes. So about five years ago, I got this, you know, I was very, I was very not at first, basically, I was very, you know. Moved [00:03:00] my spirit basically to start a platform where I could learn from people's experiences and also share this you know, lessons with other people out there. Mm-hmm. I mean, years back, I've always been having this.

Ho in my mind, this passion, you know, you know, to start something that could impact people out there, but how did we, what, how did we get there? I have this passion for learning. I have this, you know, very, very curious mind. Some of my friends make fun of me that, you know, is curiosity that kill the cats.

So maybe I should, very careful, I should be careful with these things I try out and you know, how much curious I am. But I, I something I've learned in my life so far from my mentors also, and that's. The fact that it's, it's actually cheaper to learn from people's experiences, people's story. Mm-hmm.

Because you could take lessons from their lives and use it to improve your life and you could avoid, you know, making the same mistakes and that saves you a lot of time. Yeah. That way. Yes. And that could be very costly if you have ly same mistakes yourself. So at this point in my life, I started working already.

When I started noticing that I have this, this kind of [00:04:00] gap in my life, like I was not feeling complete. Like I was like, okay, I'm making progress in my career, but I'm not, I don't feel so round in terms of, you know my personal life in terms of, you know, relationships and every other part of life apart from just career.

And so I thought, I thought about, you know, reaching out to people, you know, speaking with them. And at the same time, a lot of people look up to me and say, oh, Toby, how do you, how are you able to achieve this? Are you able to get to this point in life? And at that point in my life, if I was, if I'm honest, I was empty basically.

I just like, I'm here, but I don't really understand, you know, losing the meaning or the purpose of life, basically. Mm-hmm. So at that point I was like, okay, if I'm able to speak with people like Anthony, for example, you know, have conversations with them, record it. Learn something from it and also share these lessons with other people out there who are probably going through the same thing who want to learn from this.

Then that way I'm able to, you know, kill. Best with one system, basically I'm able to learn and also impact other people, how they were, you know, willing to learn also. [00:05:00] And that's how the podcast started. 

Anthony: How has, has that changed you over the last however many years you've been doing it? 

Tobi: Yeah, so in the, in the last five years has really changed my life.

That's really helped me to see things in different ways, like changing my mindset basically to the, you know, to how I take things. I mean. Prior to the podcast, I know a lot about gratitude. I know a lot about, you know, being thankful for the things that you, you have or in the, in this journey so far I've been able to be more intentional about it.

You know, really you make use of the power of gratitude, for example. Yeah. And that way, and also see things in a, in a different perspective. Okay. Things are working, you know, for me, are not against me, you know, and understanding how to. Make use of what? Life places at my feet at every particular time of my life.

Mm-hmm. So that, that's really helped me from speaking with people and also knowing that I am not alone. I mean, that's one, like, one big lesson I've learned. Like [00:06:00] I've, I've, I've had opportunity to speak up about. 400, 500 guests. Yeah. Basically so far. And you learn from, you listen to your story. Like, wow.

Deep down within me, I'll be like, I'm not the only one going through this. I, I mean, I mean, might be exactly how they're experiencing Nepal, you know, in a, in a kind of version in a different way. Something maybe. It just one event that they mentioned out of a hundred things they said like, wow, I felt that before.

I've experienced that before. Wow. Okay. Then you, you judge yourself less, you know, you love to Yeah. You love to give yourself a little bit of more grace and love yourself more. 

Anthony: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's helpful, right, to have a community of people who, you know, have the same struggles or have the same questions that, that you have and, and when you come together, it makes you feel like you said.

Not, not quite so alone in, in the questions that you have. Yes. That's wonderful. So for, for people who aren't familiar with it, what, explain the concept of Mirror talk. For my audience. 

Tobi: Yes. So the concept of [00:07:00] Mirror Talk is about, you know, okay. So there, there are two parts to it. The first one is about yourself.

I must be honest with you. I mean, most times in the morning when I'm getting ready for the day, I get ready for the day in front of the mirror. Like, you know, after taking a shower mm-hmm. Just trying to moisturize and, you know, comb my air and whatever. And earlier I used to find out, I, I look at myself in the mirror and I see all the flaws.

Everything that's, you know. Growing up people make fun of, okay, my, the size of my body, size of every shape of my body, the eye. I mean, there are little details that people make fun of. Basically how your eyes look like, your ears look like how, yeah, everything. And then you see those things in the mirror and starts to, you know.

Hate them or dislike them right in front of a mirror. So the concept of mirror talk is looking at yourself right in the mirror also. And you know, saying is like having affirmations, basically also appreciating everything about yourself, you know, speaking to yourself because is this power of, you know, looking to.

Like we're speaking virtually right now, but this is power of looking someone right in the eye, you know? [00:08:00] Mm-hmm. And speaking to them, you feel connected to them. Yeah. And then looking at yourself directly in the eye, you are able to speak directly to your soul basically, and say, Hey, Anthony, I am beautiful.

I am handsome. I'm successful. Today is going to be a great day. You know, I'm going to achieve this. I'm going to, you know, fulfill that, which I'm meant to fulfill. I'm going to. I have this goal set and I'm going to, you know, achieve all these goals. That way you're able to, you know, pull through you, you're able to, you know, overcome all the self doubt that you might have and all the doubts that people might have over your life, basically.

And secondly, the mirror talk in is in sense of, you know, people's story, basically. Like mm-hmm. Like, I might listen to your story and I, and I notice, and to me to be like a reflection of who I am or what I have experienced or what I'm experiencing at the moment. And I'm able to see myself. Your story and that helps me to know where my shoe oughts more, or helps me to understand what to do, not to get out of the situation in which I am at the moment, [00:09:00] because if I'm able to identify the problem.

And also, and it's, and I also know the solution I'm supposed to take that way that makes my personal growth journey, you know, easier basically to embark on. Because if you share me your share your story and it's like a reflection to me, like a reflection of myself to myself, I'm able to see, oh, that is where I am supposed to, you know, I adjust something so that I can be.

Enjoy much more of free life or, you know, become much more happier, or, that is the solution to the issue that I'm facing. I, I sit right in front of me, right in the mirror. Yeah. Staring at me. I able to know what next to do. 

Anthony: Wonderful. That's, that's great. I, that's a really beautiful idea, I think. And I, I love that it, it's so easy to be down on ourselves and, and focus on our flaws.

But I love that you're putting something positive out into the world that helps people to really see the good in themselves and see the beauty in themselves and, and their potential to to go and do great things in the world. I love [00:10:00] that. How do you define fulfilling work? Because that's one of the subjects that we talk about on this show, and especially as somebody who is a content creator and you're focused on self rele, self-reflection and growth personal development.

What does fulfilling work look like to you? 

Tobi: Fulfilling work to me means, I mean, by the way, I love the title of your, I mean your podcast name, like fulfilling work, meaningful Life. That's like, I believe that's something that's very important to everyone. You have to, for me, I, I, I think one of my biggest goal is to have like a fulfilling, I.

I think it's easy to have a fulfilling life. Mm-hmm. And a meaningful life basically. So what does fulfilling life mean to me? Fulfill, it means basically being aligned to myself and aligned to my purpose. Mm-hmm. In life. What's my purpose? I mean, the reason why I am placed on this planet and once I'm able to, I, a fulfilling life.

Having a fulfilling work also, it's been aligned to that and knowing, I mean, knowing it [00:11:00] and being aligned to it, and a return feeling. Fulfilled or happy with it? Basically feeling, you know, at peace with what I'm doing. Yeah. Feeling yes. That I'm impacting people's life or I'm doing something positive, you know, for, for the people around me in this space that I find myself, what means to me.

Anthony: Many of my listeners are kind of navigating a mid-career transition or kind of reinventing themselves, or they're thinking about what their second act in life is going to be, whether that's career or you know, some other meaningful opportunity that they have. What advice would you give to somebody who feels maybe stuck or disconnected from their purpose in life?

Tobi: One, one thing I would say, I'm, I'm, I'm sorry to plug in again the podcast. No, please do. Please do. Yeah. But we have no, we have this saying pause, take a break, reflect on life. Ums like our tagline. Someone as that I, [00:12:00] facing Life, I would advise that person if I were the one, I mean in that, if I were in that shoes, I would say just, I mean, don't be too hard on yourself.

Everyone feels stuck at, at some time, at some point in life. So just, just pause and, I mean, take some time off intentionally to just reflect on how your journey has been so far. What were the good things that worked for you? What were the lessons you've learned on the way and then, you know, being. Also grateful for where you are at the moment.

Like not everyone has the opportunity to achieve everything that you've achieved so far. You are doing wonderfully well. I mean, that's awesome. Even to be able to be at that point where you're stuck is some, it's a privilege because a lot of people don't even have the opportunity to get half of what you've got so far.

Yeah. So being grateful for that. But yes, now you want to move on the, the best thing to do is then also to reflect on what you've done so far, you know, and then see, okay, these five things. Made me happy, made me feel [00:13:00] fulfilled in the past, you know, in what I've done and how can I, what are the five things that are related to these things that I could continue to do in, in my next phase of life?

You know? Mm-hmm. Using that to make the decision for the next steps to take, basically. Yeah. So if you enjoy, for example. Let's say you enjoy speaking with people more, for example, and next phase of your life involves maybe involve maybe speaking with people or not speaking with people. Then, you know, okay, I'll go towards this direction of speaking with people more.

Because I know from what I've been doing in the past, when I speak with people, once I engage with people socially, I feel, feel more fulfilled, I feel much more I feel up here, basically I feel accomplished. So then that helps you to make that decision, okay, now I can move towards that direction, you know?

Or is it about, you know, I. Some people let's stick creating content or, you know, speaking or interviewing people, for example. Let's use that. Okay? If you enjoy speaking with people, interviewing people like Anton's interviewing me right now. And that gives you joy and that gives you joy. Just summarize it, I believe.

When you're feeling [00:14:00] stuck, ask yourself What brings me joy? You know, what brings me, what makes me happy? What makes me feel at peace with myself and with what I'm doing at the moment? What can I do? And I'll forget time or like, what can I do and I'll, I even know if I don't get paid for it, I'll send it over and all over again, basically.

Mm-hmm. So answering those questions and looking at what you've done in the past that has worked for you could help you come out of that state of being stuck and then help you to know what next to do in your life journey. 

Anthony: What are your thoughts on time management? Because, and I've talked about this a, a a few times on the show, one of the, the, the, I think the, the most.

The, the most important commodity that we have in life is time, right? It's the one thing that we're always running out of, right? Every day we get a little bit older at, at some point we're all gonna leave this earth and, and go on to the next life. You know, [00:15:00] so we're all running out of time in a sense.

How do we make the most of the time that we have? And are there any. Practical tips that, that you have or things that you do that help you to be intentional about the way that you spend your time? 

Tobi: Yeah, I mean, I, I believe time manage as a time management is very, very important in my opinion. It's very crucial for want to be able to allocate time slots to, you know, different tasks during the day.

So for example, for me. What I do basically is it's good to have a calendar. It's good to have like a very functional, realistic calendar. Mm-hmm. Not 20 tasks and 20 tasks at, you know, we in a timeframe of two hours to be completed. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, it's very essential to, if you want to.

It's very hard to be disciplined and it's intentional about it Also, like have a calendar that's functional. Plan out your day if you can, like, you know, from when you wake up to when you have to go to bed. It could be very difficult for [00:16:00] people that, for example, with children maybe. Two, three children.

Yeah. And you, you know, have to, your children could disrupt it and they're allowed to disrupt it. But it's always important to then set like, you know, some goals for yourself, understand how your routines are how you work what's, what's your situation at the moment. I use that to, you know, block out time for yourself.

Mm-hmm. I want, one thing that also helps is basically, you know this, a bit stacking, I would say also like, so you could take it a bit personal. For example, you could say, when I wake up in the morning, let's say there are people out there that have kids middle-aged people that have kids. Okay. Maybe the girls or you know, the children wake up maybe at 6:00 AM Maybe I wake up a little bit earlier at 5:00 AM and I'll do, maybe I have to go to, I have to work out a little bit or do some reading.

For example. I could also do some stacking. I'm a bit stacking, for example. For example, and say, okay, I'm going to first. Have a cup of coffee and read a book at the same time, and then do a quick workout before the first child wakes up. [00:17:00] And then, then you, you, you able to take that out of your calendar and say, okay.

In terms of fitness, I've, you know, ticked the box for the day. Mm-hmm. And in terms of maybe. Being updated on a part of you know, information on what I'm learning at the moment or the next phase of life I'm going in at the moment. You can tick that box or so then you could have some time for the, for the kids and getting them ready for school and all of that.

And you know, that plays out, you know, as the day goes. And maybe in the evening also, you could block out some time and say, okay, for example, we are podcasters. I'm going to work on a podcast episode for an hour, for example, for between seven and 8:00 PM 'cause the girls are in bed already, you know? And then one does that.

I'm being, being able to stick to that, you know that. Time plan or time, yeah, the timetable that you set for yourself, or say ops. But I believe what I'm about to what I'm trying to say is that it's important to, you know, manage one's time and know what is taking your energy, what requires your energy in each phase of your life.

Also being flexible to know, okay, this is my situation at the moment. I'm a single person. I have all the time in the [00:18:00] world I can do more, or I'm a married person with kids and I have to commit time to children. You know, blocking those time on, on your table, on your timetable or your calendar or I have to spend time with my partner.

Blocking those time on your timetable or your sorry calendar helps you to then, you know, manage your type. I know, okay, at this time, between eight and 10:00 PM I am a father or I am a podcaster, or I'm, yeah. I'm, I'm a student basically. Yeah. 

Anthony: I like that. I, I recently heard somebody talk about this idea of work life balance, and he said that he thinks from, from his perspective, balance is a myth.

It's, it's not, it's not a real, a really an achievable objective. But his advice was to be whatever you're doing. Be present in that moment, right? So if you're at work, be at work, if you're at home with your family, be at home with your family if you're exercising, [00:19:00] exercise, and, and just, just be present in that moment.

And there are going to be times where, like you said, we have to be flexible. Sometimes we're gonna have to spend extra hours at work because that's. The nature of our job, right? Other times we're gonna be in a stage of life where our kids demand more of our time. Whereas, you know, if we're single or if we're empty nesters, you know, we have more more flexibility in our time.

And so the, the idea of balance, he says is a myth. But if we just focus on being. Where we're at in the moment, then we can, you know, live a life of intention and purpose and meaning and focus on those things that matter most to us in life. 

Tobi: Yeah, I believe that so much too, because it's very essential for one to be present and to Yeah, to be fully focused on what one is doing at the moment, because, i'll talk from personal experience. Sometimes I'm at work my day job, for example, and I'm thinking about some other thing basically. And then I'm not so productive enough at work, and then I [00:20:00] get to work. I have to work longer because I want to fulfill, I want to, you know, get something done and then, you know, it spills into the next.

Time slot I have for the next thing, and then I'm like worried about work because I had not finished what I was supposed to do. Right. And I'm not productive in at anything, basically, or not. I, at the end of the day, I didn't get to achieve any of the things I want to achieve because I'm not, I was not fully present as, you know, each of the things I was planning to do.

So I really, yeah, I, I, I agreed to that also, that it's very important to, you know, and when, when it's at work, then you know that, okay, I am right now doing this. Once I'm done with this, then I can switch on to the next thing. And I'm an, I'm, I'm another person and that's in that phase already. And then I do that basically, I feel I focus fully on that too.

Anthony: Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned earlier, you talked about your experience going to church with your friends and you, you're a Christian. How important is faith to living a meaningful life? 

Tobi: Oh, for me, as a Christian, I'll say it's very fundamental, but I believe, I believe [00:21:00] the spiritual controls, the physical for me, and then living a fulfilled life for me is connected to a lot of people, say the universe, you know, I, I, I'll say God, I say that God created.

Us to be on this planet. And there's a reason why he did that. You know, I, our parents Yeah. Came together and had us conceived us, but there's a particular reason why, you know, that spam met with that egg to form who I am at the moment. Yeah. So I, I, I believe that is very, I believe it's very spiritual, you know, that process of selection of which, you know, cell need to switch cell to from who I'm, I believe it's, it's divinely orchestrated, basically.

So. I would say living a fulfilling life is then going back to that source. You know, that caused the all orchestration to say. Hey, why did you place me here? What's the reason why I'm here? And then can you please, you know, enlight me a little bit and let me know what I should do so that I can [00:22:00] actually live a fulfilled life, like, you know, do what I'm meant to do so that I can at the end of my journey, because we are not here forever at the of my journey, I can, I can say, yeah, I came to this earth, I was able to do the five things or the two things that I was pleased here to do.

And yeah, I can go back. 

Anthony: Love it. Love it. Well, if you could summarize the legacy that you hope to leave with Mirror Talk, what would, what would that be? 

Tobi: Oh, wow. That's a wonderful question. The legacy I would love to leave is that we are, we are all great bins. It's one legacy I would like to live like we are.

You are enough. You are enough to fulfill your life journey to, to have a meaningful. Life to have a great, a great life. Like you are not, you are not just here just because some people make the mistake and they give back to you. Or just for, just for being here, [00:23:00] just for filling a gap or a slot. You are here for a reason.

So either if it's a legacy, I would like to, to, you know, live behind trade podcast it to be that everyone is, is here for a reason, and you have what it takes. You are enough to, you know, have a great and meaningful life. 

Anthony: Well said. Well said. Well, Toby where can people learn more about you and hear, listen to the show?

Tobi: Yeah, so I mean, we're available on social media, on Instagram, on X, but you could find all the information on our websites, which is mural talk podcast.com. There, you could reach out to us. You could also send us an email or by just filling the contact form, there's a contact, page and you could just fill it and the images trust and the team processes it.

And sometimes I answer it directly also. And yeah, that's, I think that's the best way to, to, to get across those, or the best way also is to listen to the podcast on all Yeah. Platforms. I think that's the best thing to do, to just search mirror talks, cerv sessions on any podcast platform and listen, take a, listen to the, you [00:24:00] know, to the podcast.

And that way you know how to get across to us. 

Anthony: So listeners, check out Mirror Talk soulful conversations. It's a, it's a wonderful show. And we'll leave links to the show, to your show and social media and all that in our show notes for our listeners to find you. Toby, it's been a real pleasure visiting with you.

I, I, I love what you're doing and I love your perspective on things. So thank you so much for coming on, fulfilling work, meaningful life. It, it was great to meet you. 

Tobi: Thank you so much, Anthony. I really appreciate this opportunity and I, as I said in the course of answering the questions, I really love your podcast title.

You know, fulfilling work, meaningful life. I mean, I have a question for you, but I didn't want to ask, you know, during the course, I wanted to ask you, why did you choose that name? Why did you choose that name for your podcast? 

Anthony: That's a great question. So I experimented, or experimented is not the right word.

I thought a lot about the name over probably a year period. 'cause it took me a while to get the podcast up and going. 'cause this is kind of a side project for me. I mean, in my real [00:25:00] job, I'm an attorney and so I'm busy and I've got kids. Two kids in college, but one's still at home.

And so it just took a while to kind of get the show up and going. But originally the show was gonna be called Truth and Meaning, a podcast about life. And I think it was my sister that actually came up with that name and I liked that name, but as I was developing the content, I wanted it to be a little bit more practical for the audience, and I knew that.

For a lot of us, the careers that we have and the work that we do is such a big part of our lives, and I've observed that a lot of people are just kind of going through the motions in life and they're not happy, they're not fulfilled. They have meaningful things in their lives.

They have family or they have a church or whatever it is. But it just because of the rapid pace that. We live today, and all of the distractions that we have, it's easy to lose focus on those things that matter most. [00:26:00] And so I kind of came up with this idea of what I call the meaning deficit that, you know, as a culture, as a society, I feel like there's this deficit of meaning that we have in our lives.

And so the mission of the show is to help people. Reconnect with the things that are most important to them. And for a lot of us, I think for most of us, that's the work that we do, right? And so we want to be engaged in fulfilling work, but it's also the other things in our lives , our families,

our spouses, our children, grandchildren our involvement in the community service, our faith, all of those things that make a meaningful life. And so that's kind of how I came up with the title of the show, fulfilling Work, meaningful Life. It was kind of going through that thought process over a period of time, and then eventually I just had to decide on a title so that's what I went with.

Yeah. 

Tobi: It's a, it's a wonderful title. I mean, we all deserve a meaningful life and we need to know the things that we need to, you know, make use of the tools that we need to [00:27:00] ensure that we enjoy you know, meaningful life and be being connected to our work or to the things that we do that gives us, you know, yeah.

Satisfaction or helps us to have a fulfilling life basically. Yeah. 

Anthony: Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, thank you Toby again for coming on the show. It's, it's been a, a wonderful conversation. 

Tobi: Thank you. It has been a privilege speaking with you.