Gael Le Bris on the AAM Infrastructure Investment Gap | The Ways We Move

In this episode of The Ways We Move, Nicolas Zart speaks with Gal Le Bris of WSP about the infrastructure side of advanced air mobility.

They explore airport readiness, vertiports, charging needs, U.S. vs. Europe, and why infrastructure is the glue that makes AAM possible.

Listen now and follow the show for more conversations on aviation, infrastructure, and emerging mobility.

00:00 Intro and schedule update
00:32 Guest intro: Gal Le Bris
00:59 Infrastructure vs vehicles
01:28 U.S. vs Europe
02:18 Gal Le Bris joins
05:34 AAM challenges
12:57 Investment gap
17:24 AAM examples
24:35 Florida’s role
30:03 European perspective
35:24 Global collaboration
45:24 Personal reflections
54:14 Closing thoughts

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you are, and welcome back to another episode of The Ways We Move. My name is Nicola Zart, and I am your host on this podcast, and we're going strong almost a year and a half. I can't believe it. And although I'm changing the pace of the content instead of once a week, I think I might be going to, well, maybe twice a month. Not because we don't have enough content, because it's the scheduling that's the hardest part. This next uh guest is someone I've known for a long time, someone I really like in the industry, someone who works a little bit more on the infrastructure side of things to understand what advanced air mobility means, what also it takes to make it happen. And his name is Gael Le Brice, who works at USB. And I'll let him introduce himself, but to give you a little bit of an idea of what we talk about is how complex infrastructure is, and also how interesting that most of the investments are on the vehicle side of things and less so on the infrastructure side of things, specifically considering that, well, without the infrastructure, those investments in vehicles, yeah, I don't know what we're gonna do with them. So we're gonna talk a little bit about that. We're gonna talk about how what it takes to really look at a uniform, coherent way of tackling infrastructure. And also here in the US, what is the difference with Europe? How is your um going about it in a fairly different way? Of course, we're all gonna get to the same place, as well as the rest of the world. I hope you enjoy this. As always, please subscribe. This really helps us, and of course, gives uh give us a thumbs up. And also please drop a comment. Let us know what you think. Have you heard about advanced air mobility? Have you heard about these flying cars, air taxis? What do you think of it? What do you think it means for your future? Would you step on an aircraft with no pilot? That's always a great question to get a conversation going. But without further ado, let's hear from Gael, who will tell us a little bit about what WSP does, what they have been doing, and what is going on in our incredibly multifaceted industry. Thank you all, and we'll see you soon again. All right, finally, Gail is on the podcast. How long have we been we've been trying to get you on the podcast for so long? You're finally here, guy. Gail is a great friend of mine. Gosh, me too, me too. Gail is a great friend of mine. I've known him for many, many years and always very insightful. But we'll let him do the introduction first, okay?

SPEAKER_00 2:39

Well, thank you, Nicolas, and uh, thank you, everyone. Uh, glad to be here. Finally, after I think over a year of talking, trying to find a moment for uh recording this podcast with you, uh Nicolas. I'm Gail Lebris, I'm uh vice president and technical uh fellow uh with uh USP. Uh very long story short. Uh I'm an iontical engineer, I'm a licensed uh civil engineer as well, former airport operator, and uh these days working on a brand uh brand broad range of different projects uh all across the nation and beyond. Uh we're doing uh master planning for airports, we're supporting uh aviation stakeholders, we're working, of course, in the realm of uh advanced air mobility. We've been involved with uh this journey for uh a long time now. Uh and uh if you want, we've been active in the domain of uh research, uh supporting projects with uh national academies, planning, supporting states and operators, and uh uh the design of uh facilities as well. So very exciting. Uh and uh glad to be here today with you, Nicolas, to talk about uh advanced air mobility and I think your internet is is is a little choppy right now.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

You know, it it's I'm glad you it's it'll be fine. I'm glad you said that. It's true. I think WSV is a company pretty much everybody knows about, but I'm not sure they actually know exactly what you do. And I was just struck about a year or so ago, I saw WSV trucks driving around here in Savannah, and I was thinking, wow, what else do they do? I mean, it's it's a broad range of diversity that you guys have out there.

SPEAKER_00 4:14

No, absolutely. It's uh it's a big firm, a big global firm with strong US routes, of course. Uh and uh we do pretty much everything in uh you know engineering and uh advisory environment and health, it's a big consultancy firm. And you might have seen uh uh uh a truck uh driven by my colleagues uh doing a construction management or uh bridge inspection or else. And uh when it comes to aviation, uh we we do pretty much everything from a strategic advisory to a project delivery. The only thing that we do is that we don't operate facilities. That that's pretty much the only uh segment, if you want, that we we don't cover, but everything from a strategic advisory to uh again, project delivery, including uh planning, design, TMCM, and else we're in.

SPEAKER_01 5:01

Yeah, and that's and that's why we get along so well because that's exactly what I'm happy with the infrastructure side of things, the planning, the understanding, the development, the conceptualization, all the way down to that when that uh shovel hits the ground, sort of thing. So I totally understand. Operations, yeah, that's a that's a different sort of person who does that. And I just it's just not me. I'm not an operations person.

SPEAKER_00 5:24

So um we do understand operations, but but we don't operate ourselves uh facilities. Exactly. Not myself, a former airport operator, so I do have a keen interest in operations.

SPEAKER_01 5:34

Yeah, and and in in your position, you need to, right? I mean, there WSV needs to also understand how how to do operations. Of course, in advanced air mobility, especially when you concentrate on an infrastructure, operations is something you need to fully understand and fully have under your belt. Tell us a little bit more about how did you guys get involved with advanced air mobility? When did that start?

SPEAKER_00 5:54

Well, that's that's uh an interesting uh story. You know, uh from my my past life, I did already have a keen interest in uh uh vertical flight. But uh the thing is that uh, you know, when we uh advise airports and and state departments of transportation uh about aviation, generally speaking, uh, you know, advanced air mobility is coming. What it is exactly and how strong it's coming, and else that that's subject to discussion. And I'm sure we'll talk about that in a moment. Oh, yes. But it's coming, and and our clients have questions. We ourselves have questions as uh technical folks, if you want. And very early on, we uh uh we were part of those uh discussions, you know, on that portion of the future of aviation when it comes to advanced air mobility. And for instance, again, we've been uh for instance uh uh doing research for uh the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering and Medicine, especially its transportation research board. Uh you can find our uh guidance documents on uh advanced air mobility, urban air mobility at airports, electric aircraft and hydrogen technologies, and else on the website of the National Academies. You look for uh uh the reports labeled as ACRP Airport Cooperative Research Program, and you find those uh guidance documents uh available uh for free on the National Academy's website. Uh, these were the, as far as I know, the very first technical guidance documents on the matter when they were released. Uh we've done also uh research for other clients. Part of it has been uh shared with uh AIAA, Vertical Flight Society, and else you can find that on their website or those research papers. But what what we we were interested in is not just that that research for the sake of doing research, is how we can turn that into actionable items for decision making, for planning, for design, for turning that into real stuff if you want. And we have re-injected that into the conversation that we have with uh airport operators, state DOTs, and and other stakeholders, you know, to see how we can pave the way for advanced air mobility in a way that is uh meaningful but also uh realistic, if you want. That's a five-minute version of our journey into AAS.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

And so many things you said. I want to jump on and talk a little bit more about it. But it's true that you guys have been doing a lot of the a lot of the deeper work that happens, and this is the part that I think unfortunately the public does not see. The public sees press releases, they mostly focus on the vehicles, they don't really see the whole infrastructure aspect behind that, which, as I like to say for the last 10 years, hey, infrastructure is the glue that bonds it all together. Without infrastructure, airplanes without airports, cars without roads, boats without water, trains, locomotives without rails or stations, what do you do with it, right? So you've got to be really careful too. Um, and you know, this reminds me of something also that we went through in the electric vehicle um world where I was working uh on from you know 2006 onwards, but in around 2009, 2010, I couldn't believe how many philosophical discussions we were having about does the car come first or the charging stations come first? And it was obvious. Well, the ch Yeah, I mean, chicken and the egg. No, guys, it's the egg, okay? I'm sorry, it's the egg. The egg gives the chicken. It's obvious, right? So the charging stations, of course. And it didn't. Everybody focused on the cars. And on top of it, we did have a standard, a charging standard war that also set back the industry. But I think we we lost and easily lost three years in the adoption of EVs. Now, thank God gas prices are up, inflation is up, so all of a sudden EVs have a new breath of life, but that's besides the point. But when it comes to aviation, it's a different, uh, it's a different culture. I mean, safety first, safety foremost, and safety at the end of the day. Tell us a little bit. You said something I want to start focusing on is my my talks with airports have been, especially here in the United States, have been fascinating. I find that half of them kind of think of, yeah, it's gonna happen down the road, but they don't seem to be too much in a hurry to look into it. And then another half is like, yeah, it's being forced upon us. We have to look at it. How do how do you see the uh the industry, at least here in the United States? Because I know it's very different in Europe.

SPEAKER_00 9:59

No, uh uh absolutely, and you know, airport operators, their uh focus, if you want, their top priority is of course to run airports on the day-to-day basis, right? It occupies most of their time, most of their brain, you know, safe and efficient operations, you know, pleasant passenger experience and else. That's their top priority, of course. But everything else, they all the airport professionals that I know, they they do their best to uh keep themselves informed about what's happening in the broader air travel slash aviation uh business, and they are very well aware of uh Advent Sun Mobility and Earth. Now they they do have very sharp questions about the reality of advanced air mobility because they have uh limited funding. The grants that they can get from uh the uh the federal administration or else you know it's it's limited and tight to you know very specific conditions. So they see that coming, they hear a lot of buzz about uh it's going to be the future of aviation, is going to be that big and else, but they say, Oh, hold on. Uh if I uh need to commit that kind of money, you know uh what's behind in terms of the reality of the market locally, you know, how is it going to help me to serve my community, you know, and uh to uh how is going to benefit, you know, how is going to impact my operations, especially when it comes to airside capacity and delay, you know, land use, uh uh uh availability of facilities and else, you know, all of that you know are important questions. And today we start having answers around that. There is the FAA, uh EIPP that is coming strong, and and hopefully the uh uh connection with uh commercial service airports is going to be made and tested and evaluated as well. Like this will have uh maybe a clearer picture of uh how AAM and uh uh you know legacy airspace users you know can can coexist. Uh but that's the kind of question that we get from uh our airport clients, very legit, legit, very sharp questions, and we are uh uh building answers for them and investigating these issues, of course, to provide meaningful guidance.

SPEAKER_01 12:09

Yeah, and I think you summed it up really well. My last conversation with the big airport was was with the Atlanta Airport. And so the the bottom line was basically we are aware, we're monitoring it, but we're not spending money on it. And it's true, when 99% of your budget goes into runway maintenance, you know, that fence that needs to be replaced and everything. Thinking about advanced air mobility is a bit of a stretch, and let alone, by the way, the energy, the energy that's gonna be needed in 10 years. We calculated roughly that we're gonna need about 10 to maybe 50 megawatt of power every day from five to seven o'clock, right? No, no utilities can produce that or even transmit that, right? Let alone even give it to us, right? Even if they put a substation, yeah, it won't do a thing. So there are a lot of questions, and I understand they're concerned because yeah, the budget is that. One thing that I don't understand, and this is perhaps you can help shed some light on that, is the investment business model is so different when it comes to vehicles. Now, for vehicles, you've got billions of dollars going in that direction. And for the most part, you you want to talk to these investors and go, hey guys, have you thought about the important part about those vehicles? Is they need to operate from somewhere? This is what we call adventure mobility infrastructure. But if you're going to put two to seven billion dollars in a vehicle and you don't put anything in the infrastructure, pray tell what will happen. And that's the part I don't understand. Why do we not see the same kind of excitement at the infrastructure level? Is it because infrastructure is not sexy? Do we think of concrete and roads and bridges and tunnels? I don't understand that part. And I don't know how to reach these investors to go, hey, you really need to take that layer into consideration because that's the glue that bonds it all together, okay?

SPEAKER_00 13:54

Yeah, no, that's a very good observation. Uh and uh, you know, first it's true that the flying vehicles, you know, they get more attention than the payment underneath. But but again, we we talked about that a minute ago. You need somewhere to land and take off. And actually, you know, vertiport facilities, generally speaking, many of them will be fairly simple, you know, vertice tops or whatever you want to call them. But there will be a need also for more complex facilities, providing amenities, uh services, connections to, you know, first and last miles and else. So uh there is a question around that as well, of course. Now, I do want to clarify something is that uh uh one may see a discrepancy again between the kind of money being invested into the aircraft versus what's going for uh what's going to the infrastructure. Okay, part of that that difference of uh literally order of magnitude does make sense because uh you know the uh the Hirschberg's rule, right? To uh uh any kind of aircraft of any size, and I insist any number of seats that is made that is going to be certified for uh transporting the general public, right? It's about one billion dollars, right? 1,000 engineers and a decade or so to get to certification. And and that rule has been verified over and over. And and either it's a small vehicle or commercial uh large commercial aircraft, it's more or less the same rough order of magnitude, believe it or not. Again, it's verified over and over. A few months ago, I spent some time actually uh running some some numbers, and again, if you correct for inflation and health, that has been verified over and over with so many different kinds of aircraft, size, countries, and health. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

And this is something we've said over and over again here. Absolutely. We've always said that the three golden rules of aviation.

SPEAKER_00 15:38

Absolutely. Now, uh uh a helipad or a vertipad, you know, very simple helipad ground level, you can do that for less than 100 grand, you know. An elevated helipad, you know, on a uh heli deck and health is uh let's say you can do something between half million dollar to five million dollars, you know, depending on again.

SPEAKER_01 15:56

Depending on where cost. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 15:59

Of course, for a vertihub and health that's different, it's kind of a small airport. So uh but uh what I'm trying to say here is that again, when you look at one facility, one heli uh whatever Vital facility versus uh an aircraft program, it's a completely uh different uh uh order of magnitude. Everything said, uh again, we said it a few times already. Uh we need an infrastructure in order to make that uh advanced air mobility emerge, you know. And we see that the some of these markets, you know, uh that that maybe where where we might see AAM bloom first, you know, they already have a well fairly good, you know, robust infrastructure for accommodating uh on-demand uh helicopter transportation. Now we need to see the gap right between regular on-demand helicopter transportation and AAM. You you already mentioned a few of the items. You need uh electric chargers, you need uh to have something that is capacitive because AAM, the promise of AAM, is to do high-intensity operations to fly and fly and fly and fly. Yes, yes. The closest we can get from that, you know, we have the uh uh we have Blade, you know, operating in the greater New York, you know. That kind of the flavor of AAM. You want something another market? Look at Sao Paulo, Brazil. I know I keep you know bringing that example every time I talk about advanced mobility. Perfect example. Pre-pandemic, I don't have uh uh fresher figures, but uh pre-pandemic we were talking about 400,000 helicopter operations flying over downtown Sao Paulo. You know, that's exactly more or less of the same order of magnitude of the number of aircraft operations that my former airport carry Charles de Gaulle when I left. Can you believe it? 400,000. There you go. Yeah, there you go.

SPEAKER_01 17:44

That's a very good point.

SPEAKER_00 17:45

Yeah. You need helipads or vertipads or whatever, you need hubs and else. Uh look at Sao Paulo, you know, the kind of uh uh uh infrastructure network that exists there. It's a lot of you know helipads, most of them elevated, bunch of more complex infrastructure for uh maintaining those helicopters, but also uh uh providing additional amenities and else. And uh uh again, if we want AAM to become that big, you know, that big of an operation, uh that's the sort of thing that we need to see uh happening elsewhere, uh plus on top of that the layer that you know for for charging the the EV tolls and else, all the specificities if you want of EV toll operations that needs to be uh addressed as well. So uh yes, there is a gap as of today, New York data, etc. name them if you if you want again to see AM happen the way we are uh we have been envisioning it, let's say.

SPEAKER_01 18:38

Yeah, and I think you made all great points. And and to Sao Paulo's point, I think also another thing that was important is the reason why there is such a thriving helicopter business out there is both necessity for one thing, right? The roads, you can't really use them, it's not that great, but also the buildings were designed to have around the hour helicopter flights on top of it. Something that we don't necessarily have here. Last time I was in Los Angeles, I looked around and yeah, indeed, there were close to 30, 37, their emergency helic, right? And so exactly. So that's the that's the big difference. Same thing with garages, right? Remember parking lots like back in 2017? We thought we'd fly from building rooftops to building rooftops, landing on a parking lot, except, well, guess what? Charging stations are extremely heavy. And on top of having then a transformer, and then you need to have hydrogen, and then you need to have sustainable aviation fuel, that's a lot of weight and a lot of space, which you don't necessarily have on top of these buildings. So, one thing that we've been also pushing for the last few years is to sort of get away from the idea of EV toll and verte ports only. That's a very difficult business case to make financially. But move more towards how about a multi port, right? A multi-port now we work with airplanes, helicopters, drones, EV tolls, East Tolls, EC tolls, you name it. It flies, fine, done deal. And now we can start to make sense of it. But you're right, we will still need to have these helipads, vertipads, whatever you want to call them. And then another point that you just made that which which was interesting because Rex Alexander, who was on the podcast a long time ago, said the same thing. You know what? A helipad, verti stop, if you wish. Yeah,$140,000. I can make you that and I can put a cone and air, you know, an air socket, and that's it, done deal. But as you move up, then you need more amenities, then you need more charging, then you need so on and so forth, and that adds up. And of course, it still leads us back to the same question. It's incredible that the vehicle makers can attract billions of dollars of investments, but infrastructure cannot do that. And I think maybe another way of looking at it, especially here in the United States and very different in Europe, and then we can talk about how Europe goes about it because it's a little different, obviously. But over here, the vehicle makers, where they're all modal transportations all put together, they do it on their own. They put everything on their own, everything. But airports, well, they're subsidized, right? I mean, they depend on federal money. And I'm not really sure about railway stations, but I'm assuming more or less the same thing. Roads are, gasoline is so on, so forth. So there's really this infrastructure philosophy that is subsidized by the government. And of course, that brings a whole new layer of two different players who work in two different fields with two different realities, and yet both of them need each other. So, how do we bridge that gap?

SPEAKER_00 21:23

No, absolutely. And for and for clarity, I don't necessarily like the word subsidizing because aviation pays for itself in the United States, right? This is money that is coming from your plane ticket, you're right, and you're right. What you pay for your gallon of uh of aviation fuel and it's reinjected into the system, just for everyone's understanding that's that's how it works in the United States for uh the public funding of uh of uh commercial airports and G airports as well. It's it's again aviation pays for uh for but everything said, yeah, as you say, you know, there is that big chunk of money that is available for maintaining. And developing and enhancing, right? Yes. And so we have that that chunk of money, if you want, that is available for uh maintaining, developing, enhancing our national airspace system and uh and network of uh uh airports, but but uh uh again uh it's tied to specific uh conditions. You know, there is a FAA handbook literally for those. And uh these conditions they don't come out of nothing, they come from a congressional mandate, you know. Yes, there is uh, as you may know, there is a task force multi-agency that is working on uh uh you know how to support the emergence of advanced air mobility and other advanced aircraft technologies right now. Uh but again, AAM is not necessarily eligible to those funds. Should it be? I don't know. That's uh a wild question because again, that money needs to benefit to the NAS and air travel, generally speaking, and one may say that AAM is a bit of a niche, at least you know, at his uh early stage, it will be a niche. Uh and at the same time, again, I I did mention that if you want to create a uh Vertiport facility at an airport to accommodate high-intensity operations, this is mobilizing resource from that airport, not just money, also land and else. So, what we've seen, you know, at some airports, there are yes, it's this idea that uh maybe, maybe that vertiport uh could be uh funded and developed by others, you know, or even maybe funded and developed by others at the edge of the airport property, not necessarily even at the uh within the airport property. That's what I've heard from from some airport operators. And and uh at the same time, you see some some interesting model. Look at what's happening right now at uh MCO, Orlando International Airport, right?

SPEAKER_01 23:56

I was gonna say Florida is a good example of doing it right, I think, right?

SPEAKER_00 24:01

No, no, I agree. And MCO is not not their money being poured into uh that Vertiport project, right? They issued an RFP, and uh uh they they basically the idea is to uh select a uh uh developer that is going to uh basically uh design, build, and operate uh that Vertiport, right? So uh the airport is not uh basically uh committing uh uh money onto that, right? And not taking the risk to develop that that that facility. That's a way also to offset uh the risk, you know. Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:35

Let's not stretch that budget. It's already stretched, right? Let's not stretch it into eventually, potentially, so on, so forth. So that totally makes sense, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 24:43

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

You beat me to it. I was gonna introduce why Florida gets it, um, and other states are still talking about it. I mean, when we think of like when I think of the first three states that come to mind when I think of adventure mobility, predominantly Florida, but I also think of Texas and I also think of Utah. But why Florida in 2023 all of a sudden decided, hey, public interest, verteports, multiports, money needs to go into that, offload it from the airport. To me, it seems like a no-brainer, right? Everybody should be going, yes, that's the way to do it. And yet to this day, I don't see any other states doing the same thing. So what makes Florida so unique? And by the way, and just to clarify, this is what also makes our country so unique, right? Because yeah, you have a federal government and it sort of you know tells you to go in one direction, but each state is important freedom to do whatever the heck you feel like doing, and for the all the right reasons, because traffic in Florida is very different than it is for me here in Savannah, than it is in Texas, than it is in New York, than it is in Washington State. But why is Florida? Why did they get that?

SPEAKER_00 25:53

And and and for the record, of course, uh Florida has been very active in advanced air mobility, but other states as well. We could talk about uh North Carolina DOT and what they've been doing, uh for instance with uh UAS, you know, for emergency uh they're they're part also of uh passenger air mobility uh as well at the forefront of that as well. You just mentioned Washington State, Texas, California, and else. I mean, uh a lot of states are uh very involved and absolutely exactly so, but with why Florida, well, there is that uh uh those uh uh if you want, uh what do you need, right, to be on the top top list of uh the emerging markets for advanced and mobility, right? You need uh uh uh you know urban centers that are at uh decent distance that can be covered by vitals, you know. You need a certain power of purchase as well, because again, we could talk about the affordability of IAM for a while. It's not going to replace mass transit as I still hear sometimes. It does have to cost. Nothing does, nothing does come out cheap on-demand aviation, and it costs money again to fly aircraft and for a good reason. You know, you need to pay for that safety, for that experience pilot, and else. But anyway, that's another discussion. Why Florida back to Florida? Again, there is that uh uh interesting setting, if you want, in terms of urban density and spacing of urban centers and else. There is also that vision and support from FDA, Florida Department of Transportation. And that's very important as well. When you have a state that has a vision for innovation in mobility and not just AAM, and also other uh players, other stakeholders that are interested in. I'm talking about fiat in the greater Tempa, for instance. True, and and others, you know, they they have that that interest in uh advancing uh AAM, you know, for good reasons. That that helps a lot, you know. You know that Hef Dot is uh they have that Suntrack facility uh that is uh a great test bed for so many technologies, especially uh when it comes to connecting automatic vehicles, and they want to integrate that uh aerial component, if you want, to to the facility. It's all that ecosystem that is being supported by uh the the state of Florida uh and all that ecosystem of stakeholders, you know, all along the value chain that is interested in uh in doing something in Florida. And that that's very important again. It takes a team across all the different domains to to make something like AAM happen.

SPEAKER_01 28:22

Yeah, I and I think you know, in many ways you're right. Geographically, Florida is perfect. I mean, the cities are there's a golden triangle, they're all there. But Florida is the one state where they actually understand the potential of investor mobility, right? Yeah, it is air, but it's not necessarily air. This is all the mobility points, the dots that cannot be connected by car, by train, by boats, by traditional conventional airs uh, you know, airplanes or helicopters. This is where uh AAM really comes in strong. And of course, when you think about it, well, Florida is perfect for that. Geographically, population density, you're right, purchase power is good over there. So I think it will lead the way going forward. In fact, I just printed an article on electricairmobility.news talking exactly about that. Why does Florida get it and other states maybe not as much, but there is a geographical point of importance. I mean, Texas is huge, right? Over here in uh in um in in Atlanta, I mean in Georgia where I live, you know, it takes me almost five to six hours to drive to Atlanta, right? And a flight is 30 minutes, right? If I want to drive to Augusta, it's two and a half hours of no highways, right? Um, we do have rails, by the way, and that could be easy to put a pendular train on it. We'd be there in a few hours. Um, so we're still working on these things. But the problem is that, well, there's nothing much in between, and that's where things really uh and I'm not saying that Macon and Dublin are not great cities, by the way. If you like music, you want to go there, but that's that's a bigger problem. Florida does not have these problems, so maybe Florida will be sort of the blueprint for the rest of the uh the country. I don't know. We'll see how that uh comes out. I did want to make a segue into because we're we're you know, we both have European routes too. In Europe, things are very different. Airports are not run the same way, everything is very different, of course. Lots of differences between FAA slash DOT and YASA. Tell us a little bit more about how things are being seen in Europe because for me it seems more like a top-down kind of decision making, whereas in the United States, it's uh let's start with an idea and you guys figure it all out down there, kind of thing, right? I don't know if that's a good way of saying it, but I think it's probably the most diplomatic way of saying it.

SPEAKER_00 30:29

No, the the the business business culture is different, the regulatory culture may be a bit different as well, but at the same time, a lot of things uh have been happening there as well. Yes. And if you want to talk about uh infrastructure, I mean uh and and even airport operators, they've been uh uh pretty involved in those discussions. Again, their uh top priority is the operations, maintenance, and development of those commercial airports, but it doesn't mean that they don't have any interest in that. You've seen uh group ADP, aeroport CD Roma and and and others, you know, investing, you know, practically speaking, investing into uh uh AAM infrastructure, right? Or the the prospect of uh doing business in in AAM infrastructure, right? So uh it's happening there as well. Wheez again, all these the caveats that sometimes it might be harder to make things happen there than in the United States when it comes to doing uh pilot projects, experimentations, demonstrations, and else. And sometimes it's because of the regulatory burden, sometimes it's also uh because of a pushback, either from the public or local officials. Again, it's a different context, let's say.

SPEAKER_01 31:40

It's a very different. No, but you you said something that that is really uh, I think to me, is a head scratcher. When you think of the vehicle makers in Adventure Mobility, 99% of them are right here at the United States. But when I think of infrastructure, it's in Europe, right? Skyports, Blue Nest, uh, Urban V, I I know we know them very well, actually. ADP has been very strong in that. Aeroporti di Noroma, same thing. So why is that over here we're focusing on the vehicles, and over there they seem to be focusing more, and not to say that Ascendance Technologie isn't around, right? We do know they're there. By the way, ERC, which I'm really glad to see they're finally up and running, and hopefully we'll be on the podcast soon enough. It just seems like in Europe there's the infrastructure in the United States, the vehicles. Why? And I I get it, the geography is different, the structure is very different, but it's bizarre that it turned out to be like that.

SPEAKER_00 32:32

Well, again, it it might be easier to find investors and to create startups to, you know, do big projects like a new aircraft here in the United States than in Europe. That's one thing. Yes. Now on the infrastructure side, again, I think that why do we have so many ventures and else around the development of IA infrastructure versus the United States? Well, one reason is again airports in the United States, uh, most of them are publicly operated. Yes. In Europe, they've been privatized, you know, a long time ago. A long time ago.

SPEAKER_01 33:06

It's a very different business model.

SPEAKER_00 33:07

Private firms, private companies, right? And if they see an opportunity, a business opportunity, they will go after it. Now, uh, everything said, uh, you know, uh, how far are they into investing into AAM infrastructure and committing resources and else? See what I mean? So it's it's it's it's easy to create a vehicle, you know, to to you know, advertise services around uh AAM, especially if in your uh mainstream business you have good engineers, designers, planners, and else, you know, for for running your traditional airport business, you have can have that cross-pollination and not necessarily committing fully those resources to the AM business. That's also part of the why, if you want, in my opinion, why we see so many such a companies, if you want, around uh AM infrastructure uh in Europe. But it doesn't mean that elsewhere we we don't see startups and and businesses around AM infrastructure and here in the United States, north of the border as well, and and other parts of the world, we see uh champions emerging around uh not only uh brick and mortar infrastructure, but but if we want to talk about brick and mortar infrastructure, the vertiports, but also the equipment for recharging Evitols, the software solutions that you need to uh enable that uh advanced air mobility traffic management that is still in the coming and but but it's coming at some point. Exactly. And also connecting the dot between legacy aviation slash airport uh solutions or ideas and how we could inject that into AAM, thinking about collaborative decision making and else, you know, that uh can benefit as well uh not only AAM per se, but the integration of AAM into the broader thing of uh commercial aviation, right?

SPEAKER_01 34:55

Yeah, I th I think you said it really well, and it's interesting to see how two continents can go about it very differently, approaching the same problem. And by the way, we'll get to the same solutions, there's no doubt about it, right? But how two continents can go so differently, and if you really look really deep down into it, there is a thread. And that thread, I'll leave it up to you guys watching or listening to this to figure out what it is. And if you haven't figured it out, well, you know who to talk to. Come and talk to me, tell me talk to Guy, and we'll explain things to you a little bit more in greater depth than what we're doing here today. So, and that's also another thing, too, that that I found really interesting is talking to other regulatory bodies around the uh the planet. One of the last ones I spoke to was in the Emirates, and it was really fascinating to see, you know, the question was point blank. How do you guys, because your environment is very different, short of the temperatures, but the airspace is different. How do you see advanced air mobility um happening? And they said, you know, one of them explained it in such a neat way. I thought, oh, that was perfect. She goes, you know, we're watching IASA, all right? And then we're watching the FAA. And here we are in the middle. So, although we take from IASA a lot, we have our own little special unique cases there. Same thing in India, same thing in Japan, same thing in Australia. And even my Chinese friends, you know, these guys are probably the luckiest because they have an economy that can just make it sustainable, they don't care. So it's really interesting to see how all of these different regulatory bodies around the world are happening. And last week, by the way, we had NRA Technologies, we had Brent Clevan from uh NRA Technologies, and I found that they had they found these systems. So they have a platform that works anywhere around this planet, and then they just put the right modules around it to make sure it fits with their uh regulatory bodies. And I thought, wow, isn't that amazing? That single universal UTM platform, where after that you can say, well, in this case, you need that module, you need that module, you know. So I'm I'm hoping we will find that, especially on the charging protocols and things like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:53

No, and I think that uh you're touching a very important point here, is that uh aviation were a global industry, but also a global community. And we've seen we've seen that in both commercial and general aviation, is that we've learned so much from that diversity of perspectives and experience, you know, different regulators, stakeholders from different parts of the world with different approaches of the same problem, but in different contexts, also sometimes. All of that, you know, it's uh a huge value in terms of cross-pollination and learning from each other. We've seen that in flight safety, in operational efficiency, in the design of aircraft, airports, whatever. You know, we learn so much from talking to our folks, our colleagues from different parts of the world. And that's what makes us stronger, safer, and more efficient. Yes. And I think we'll be the same for AAM. That's why it's so important to talk to each other, you know, across the different regions, across the different cultures and health. It's because again, it's uh AAM is emerging, emerging fast, and we need to learn fast.

SPEAKER_02 37:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 37:55

And one way to do that, it's again, you know, share perspectives, ideas, and lessons learned.

SPEAKER_01 38:01

You know, that's uh it's such a great point because the one thing that I'm still very sad about is you have three poles in in adventure mobility: the passenger vehicles, they get all the publicity and even the money. Then you have the drone guys, and they're on their own, they're in all they're like, whatever, we know we're gonna be first, like that. And then you have the infrastructure, and we're like, need money, need money, need money. But all three of them need to be working together because they will be working together. You don't have a choice. You cannot work without that, that cannot work without any of that. And perhaps drones and passenger vehicles, they they can operate very differently, but ultimately you'll be operating from the same place, guys. So yeah, we need to. We used to have a lot more, I think, talking or or communicating before. Now we're sort of seeing you know companies get a little bit more serious, but we need to continue that momentum of talking and having uh panels where everybody gets on stage and talks about it, especially again, if at some point we we want to shift from uh small-scale experiments, if you want, to something that is really mainstream.

SPEAKER_00 39:02

And you were just talking about drones and heart. Uh, think about the lower space, how it's going to get busy. You will have drones delivering stuff. You will have uncrewed, you know, EVTOL, Listol, whatever, you know, flying without pilots, you know, from A to B to deliver cargo and health. You will have, at least at first, you know, piloted passenger EV tolls, stores and airs, you know. Plus, let's not forget the the legacy users. There are still things happening in the lower space. There are still aircraft. There are already aircraft flying. And the goal is not to obliterate, you know, uh deprive those uh users from access to the air space. We need to make things happen for everyone. We need to share that uh resource at the airspace and and airports as well, are you know, and again, AM, it's it's part of the future of aviation. It's not the future of aviation. We think of the 99 remaining percent of it as well. Uh so that that's very important. And it's not just for the lower space as well. It's also when we come when it comes to uh uh accessing airports, that's a big question that that I'm being asked all the time by airport lines. What will be the impact of AAM on capacity and delay? If uh the trade-off is we need to there will be uh more delay for commercial flights, that's a big no-no. So we need to, it has to be a soft integration of AAM into existing operations, otherwise, we're running into some serious issues, if you want, in terms of peaceful coexistence between all of those activities.

SPEAKER_01 40:43

Yeah, I th I think you said it really well. AAM is a intermobility solution, that's what it is. And it happens to be by air. I mean, it could have happened any other ways, but yeah, it's efficient and it works this way. And actually, you remind me of something a few years ago. You invited me on one of your studies where a lot of stakeholders came in and we you were asking us questions about how important is it. Remember how important is it that the hail riding taxis are closer or further away then and everything? And that's the kind of stuff that happens at the infrastructure level, which I personally find extremely exciting because I was gonna say something horrible. Not to say that vehicles are limited, but vehicles are fascinating, right? I mean, air aircraft are fascinating to start with, but I find that the infrastructure is extremely rich in complexities because it's not just a lending pad, it's not just a runway, it's not just a stole port. It's where do the cars go and park? How close is it to recharging? How do we integrate light rail into this whole idea? Is there enough electricity or energy to bring in here? Do we have to have local energy and storage and everything? What does the uncrewed traffic management and does it integrate with ATM? How will ATC handle it? And then you have to start thinking about well, all the local zoning uh restrictions that you may or may not have around firefighting, EMS, um, military, uh police. Wow, it is such a complex, multidimensional jigsaw puzzle that to me it dwarfs any other kind of technologies around it. And hence that to me, that should be such a given for all the investors. They should just go and go, wow, this is really where it's at. And yeah, it is. And in the long run, that's very rich value chain. It is, it's a very rich value chain, exactly. And and I think that sometimes we kind of just get sidetracked by the shiny objects. And yes, I mean, my God, you know, I've I've been close to all of them. I've seen a lot of VV tolls fly, and man, it's amazing. Did I tell you I was at Salinas in in uh Joby and we saw the S4 fly, and it was funny because you could only hear it for about a hundred feet as it was taken off, but then you couldn't hear anything except for the chaser. And at one point, a big Sikorsky came in at the same time. All three of them were in the air, and it was amazing. But you know what? The only thing we heard was the Sikorsky, right? Obviously, heavy big helicopter. But it really made me understand how this is important. This is a multi-mobility solution here that's congealing slowly together. And by the way, you know, train stations of the E's and 50s were already designed as big cities with underground railing system and parking lots and tons of stores and everything. And we're sort of revisiting this when we think of Verda hubs and these beautiful, lavish Verda hubs that we used to have, these drawings. I miss these drawings. They're so they made me dream, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_00 43:37

Yeah, yeah. That's interesting that that vision of uh of uh you know urban vertical flight, you know, is is not necessarily new, but now it's it's finally uh uh coming through. And you're absolutely right. I mean, uh if it was as easy as painting an age, you know, on top of a parking garage, uh it would already have happened. Uh and and and uh uh we were talking about parking garages and else, and just for uh everyone's Benefit here. Again, if you're thinking about creating a vertiport on top of a parking garage or parking facility, there are a lot of different parameters to be taken into consideration. It's not just about the bearing load if you want. It's also about downwash, outwash. It's about fire prevention and suppression. It's about access. It's about so many different things. So many different things. I know there are very cool renderings out there, including from us, but uh it may look simple, it's not that simple.

SPEAKER_01 44:31

Well, and that's that's a good point you're making because it has to look appealing to the public. And this is something I've done, by the way, for the last 20 years is I'm always talking to engineers and founders and everything, and I understand what they're trying to do, but then I turn around and I have to explain it to the public. So, how do you make something that that is extremely complicated, palpable, and excited to the public? And it's something I'd love to do because that I get it. I totally get another thing, too, when we talk about parking lots, right? Whether they're multi-leveled or not, you have you ever noticed they're usually inside a city in the middle of buildings and everything? So, hey, dropping in from that, that's a lot of energy to get out of it again. So, downwash, outwash, yes, there's there's a lot, it's extremely complicated. I think most people have no idea how complicated infrastructure can be. And for me, that's why it's so exciting. And I've always loved it, I've always been part of it for the last 20 years. It's just it's been great. Guil, we're we're getting into the part where we start to get a little bit more personal here, but um, tell us a little bit about your motivation. What what gets you out of bed in the morning? Why do you do what you do?

SPEAKER_00 45:35

Well, we have an hour, right? Yeah, and I say encyclopedia. The short version. I'm I'm a pure aviation product. I've I've always been fascinated by aviation. As a child, you know, I I knew I would want to work in that that that field uh, and especially as a as an engineer. I'm a pure aviation engineering product, you know. And what excites me is it's uh what aviation brings to the world. We might not realize that you know every day, but the unique mobility that aviation brings to the world, you know, it's something that no other transportation model can do with. And and I love trains, I love transportation technologies and else. But when it comes to ship a bunch of people or a load from A to B, you know, across mountains or rivers or whatever at high speed, it's aviation and nothing else. You know, yeah, and it's not just about air travel, it's also about emergency services, it's about emergency relief, it's about so many other use cases for that great technology that aviation is. Absolutely. Uh and connecting people together, making things happening in terms of business opportunities and else. You know, one example that I like to mention is that uh the country of Costa Rica, for instance, you know, they made the decision to uh preserve their land and to basically ban any you know mineral extraction operations on their land. But they need money to live, right? So and to keep improving you know their uh uh uh you know uh way of life and else. So what they decided is to turn to green tourism. Yes, fantastic. Green tourism. How do you bring tourism in Costa Rica? Uh-huh. And that's the problem. You need aircraft for that. So, yes, aircraft can be an ally to sustainable development, you know, to making our world better and else. Of course, it has negative externalities, like anything else. Hey, look at that.

SPEAKER_01 47:38

What comes out of my mouth? Carbon dioxide, okay? Come on. That is true. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:42

So we have our duty, of course, to uh make aviation more sustainable. And as an industry, I think we have a plan for that. But again, I'm very proud and excited to be part of uh the aviation community. Uh, and uh yeah, that's that's what makes me uh you know wake up in the morning and go to work, you know. And it's uh again keep aviation alive, making sure that aviation for all happens, you know, and that uh we can keep uh innovating, you know, for uh for everyone, you know, all around the world and all across the country for this regard.

SPEAKER_01 48:15

That's that's actually you said it really well. And you're right, Costa Rica actually has done a lot of great things there, and our friends at Blueness has done a lot of great work over there and that's just one example.

SPEAKER_00 48:26

That is just one example. Exactly. If you want to learn more about that, actually, uh December uh 24, we released uh a great study called The Future of Airports, a vision of 2040 and 2070, right? Uh, and uh uh it's not just about airports, we talk about aviation generally speaking, and uh you can find great contents on that if you want to learn more about uh again what what aviation brings to the world and how we can uh uh you know make aviation more sustainable and and beneficial to more people, of course, all around the world.

SPEAKER_01 48:59

You know what? Maybe this is something I'm gonna put up on electriccaremobility.news, like a sort of a library of where you can get a lot of these things. And I'll I'll get all the downloads. I I've read a lot of what you guys have put out there, and it is really well done.

SPEAKER_00 49:11

Well, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 49:13

The next question, I don't know if you want to talk about that. We can always edit it out, but you come from a long lineage of airplane people, like your family goes back. Didn't you tell me like you were somehow related to an early French airplane designer or something like that? I kind of thought I remember seeing that in some some discussion we were having, or was it an online discussion? Somebody was talking about. I can't remember. And if not, then I totally hallucinated it.

SPEAKER_00 49:40

Yeah, actually, I'm the first aviation person in my family, but I don't think it's a pure hallucination. I don't think it's a pure hallucination. It's because there is uh Jean-Marie Le Brice, same name, uh, same family name. That was it. Very little known, but it's a pioneer of aviation, and most likely the very first person flying in uh heavier than air, you know, and doing an ascending flight, you know, that happened in the late 19th century, you know, in uh Finister, Penerbet, you know, uh Western Brittany. Uh and uh it was a glider, okay, but it had that vision of uh you know an aircraft. And and you look at the the model, and it looks actually you know like uh one of those uh early aircraft that will fly a few decades later, you know, with an engine. And yes, uh part of his vision was uh actually to uh leverage that that that technology in order to do search and rescue at sea, you know, because he was a seaman, you know, that was his background. Uh and he funded that uh glider on his uh uh own money, you know, uh got got a bit of support, but basically did everything on his own. Uh great story, great personal story from from Jean-Marie Le Bris. And again, he's one of the pioneers of aviation, but uh unfortunately that's a little known story that that deserves more uh visibility in my opinion.

SPEAKER_01 51:03

That was it. That was the thing. I'm sorry, and I automatically assume that it was yours. But that's something we need to do a little bit. Yeah, I know, I know. I that's something we need to do a little bit more research on. All right, for the very last, uh very last question. What would you like people who are listening to us or watching us, what would you like for them to walk away from from everything that we've talked about today? I'm putting you on the spot.

SPEAKER_00 51:26

Okay. Well, uh Advent Center Mobility is is finally happening in very concrete words and terms, I think. Uh again, uh uh the EIPP, the FAA EIPP, you know, that program that is going to uh create pilot projects across the nation, you know, bringing all kinds of different stakeholders together to make things happen, to test, you know, uh AAM and see how it can happen. I think it's going to uh uh uh help advance advanced air mobility a lot, you know. Uh so again, it it's coming, it's very exciting. I would say keep you know educating yourself about uh uh AAM because there is uh a lot of buzz around it. But uh, you know what? Go out there, you know, see a demonstration, you know, make an opinion on your own, you know, of you know, about all those questions, about noise, about you know what it can bring to your community uh and else. Uh again, an EVTOL is a very different thing than uh a conventional helicopter. It's still on-demand aviation when it comes to advanced air mobility, but in a very different way that with uh today's helicopters. And there are all these use cases that will be built around advanced air mobility as well that are uh beyond the pure uh on-demand uh service, if you want. It's coming soon, it's coming strong, it's coming near to you. So uh uh again, I encourage everyone to to learn about advanced air mobility and to uh make your own opinion about uh that that very exciting innovation that is coming to you very soon.

SPEAKER_01 52:54

Yeah, and I think especially so if you're young, you're in school, you don't know, you are attracted to aviation. Let us tell you that the future of aviation is.

SPEAKER_00 53:03

It's not just about flying aircraft. Yes, absolutely. Well said. It's all the ecosystem around that. It's a good paying job, incredibly good paying jobs for everyone, from the mechanics to the pilots to the flight planner, flight scheduler, whatever, and else, you know, uh it's yeah. When I when I was talking about what what aviation brings to the world, it's that as well. It's a whole aviation ecosystem. Everything that innovation around aviation enables for other domains, you know, and again, all those uh good-paying jobs, you know, uh and and uh uh for all kinds of different background degrees and else, you know. You can get into the aviation business, you know, from your uh community college or else. Again, learn about aviation, so many great opportunities. And it's a great family, it's so exciting and so many opportunities to uh you know move across domains from a job to another and else, uh, depending on what you like, what you want to do with your future and else. If you are young folk, you know, listening to that podcast, learn about job opportunities, career opportunities in aviation. You will never regret your choice if you decide to join aviation. I never heard anyone say I regret so I regret to that that I made that choice and that now I work in aviation. It's a great very exciting job in else.

SPEAKER_01 54:17

12 years ago I switched over. I never regretted it, not once. I mean, there are tough times, but overall, no. And and shameless blood, where would you want to where do you want to go to learn about these things? Well, hey, here's a great podcast that we have here. It's called The Ways We Move. This is exactly where you can find out a lot about mostly aviation, but we do try to talk about other things. And of course, the other sister website, electricairmobility.news. Gail, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us. And I really appreciate it because I know your schedule is tight. You've got a lot of work, you got a lot on your plate, but we also appreciate everything that WSB does, and uh certainly look forward to writing a little bit about that so that people can see where else they can go and get some more uh information, all that. Gail, thank you very much. Please come back whenever you want. It's a open invitation, absolutely, and then I look forward to uh seeing you again, huh?

SPEAKER_00 55:08

In a year. Fly safe, everyone.

SPEAKER_01 55:10

Thanks.