Why Nobody in Vertical Flight Can Do This Alone — with Francois Lassale of VAI

This week on The Ways We Move, I sit down with Francois Lassale, the current CEO of VAI — Vertical Aviation International, formerly HAI — and it turned out to be one of the richest conversations we have had on this podcast.

VAI represents the largest vertical lift association in the world, and Francois arrived at its helm at what he rightly calls an inflection point. Helicopters, drones, and eVTOLs are converging in the same airspace, with the same DNA and the same infrastructure challenges — and somebody needs to hold that community together. That is what VAI does. And Francois is the man who left Bali to do it.

His background alone is worth the listen. Born in Zimbabwe to a French father and a South African mother of Dutch descent, raised on a farm where he learned Zulu, deployed to Angola as a soldier in a Zulu commando unit, then the Royal Air Force, then the French national reserve — all three commissions simultaneously. He flew Harriers. He was a VIP helicopter captain and Special Forces pilot. Then the airline world, the UAE Presidential Flight, offshore safety in the North Sea, and three helicopter companies across Indonesia, Papua New Guinea, and Australia — run from Bali. His wife has followed him around the world more than once and kept the house in Bali. He still owes her.

In this episode we get into:

• Why VAI rebranded from HAI to VAI — and what vertical means for an industry that now includes drones, eVTOLs, and everything in between
• The investment gap that should concern everyone: roughly $6.5 billion went into helicopter innovation over the last five years while $28.5 billion went into AAM — and infrastructure received almost none of either
• How helicopters, drones, and eVTOLs share the same DNA and will operate in the same airspace — and why that makes VAI's institutional role more critical, not less
• The 10-year workforce cliff nobody is talking about: the average helicopter mechanic today is 56 years old, and the pipeline is not filling fast enough before AAM adds its own demand on top
• The Docklands Railway story — how London's autonomous train went from nobody will get on it to nobody thinks twice — and what that tells us about public trust in autonomous aircraft
• Why Florida leads the country in AAM infrastructure readiness, and why the airport funding model is the blueprint every other state should be following right now
• The FAA's $12.5 billion ATC modernization and what AI-driven airspace separation means for a sky shared by helicopters, drones, and eVTOLs
• Why vertiport should become multiport — and the real complexity of building charging, fire suppression, and certification for an entirely new class of aircraft into existing infrastructure
• VAI's data-sharing platform: anonymous, non-judgmental, benchmarking-driven — and why sharing safety data is the single most powerful thing an operator can do to protect their business and their industry
• Why safety is the currency of credibility — not a compliance checkbox, not a marketing line

Francois closes with the line he carried out of the Royal Air Force: keep the blue side up. And the reminder that none of this — not the aircraft, not the airspace, not the infrastructure, not the public trust — gets built by anyone working alone.

CHAPTER INDEX

00:00 Introduction 

00:06 Episode overview and guest introduction 

03:15 Welcome Francois Lassale 

03:29 Growing up in Zimbabwe, learning Zulu, serving in Angola 

05:09 The Royal Air Force, Harriers, and the path to helicopters 

06:00 VIP pilot, Special Forces, and the airline world 

06:52 UAE Presidential Flight and the move to America 

07:20 Offshore safety with Helioshore: oil, gas, and wind 

07:48 Running helicopter operations across Indonesia, Papua New Guinea, and Australia 

08:05 Why VAI came calling — and why Francois left Bali 

10:20 Replacing James Viola at the helm of the world's largest vertical lift association 

11:31 The VAI mission: bringing the full vertical lift community together 

12:35 Helicopters, drones, and eVTOLs: shared DNA, shared airspace 

15:23 Nobody can do this alone: the collaboration imperative 

16:17 The investment gap: $6.5B for helicopters vs $28.5B for AAM 

17:30 The FAA's $12.5B ATC modernization and what it means for shared airspace 

19:28 VAI's role: keeping heliports open and converting them to multiports 

20:39 ACAS, TCAS, and AI-driven separation in congested airspace 

23:25 Why vertiport should become multiport 

24:35 Infrastructure priorities: energy, public transport, and the full ecosystem 

25:27 VAI's five strategic initiatives and five-year plan 

26:43 The 10-year workforce cliff: average mechanic age is 56 

28:37 School visits, scholarships, and Rotor's autonomous Robinson helicopter 

31:27 The US vs. Europe infrastructure investment gap — and why it exists 

33:50 Why infrastructure is less attractive to investors than aircraft 

35:06 Florida as the model state: the airport funding blueprint for AAM 

38:35 The Docklands Railway story: public trust and the autonomous transition 

40:18 Horses, steam engines, EVs, and now eVTOLs: how technology adoption always goes 41:24 Francois goes electric: the Porsche Taycan 

42:41 What gets Francois out of bed: leaving Bali for Virginia to help lead a global industry 

46:09 Key takeaways: collaboration and safety as the currency of credibility 

47:24 VAI's data-driven approach and the benchmarking platform 

49:09 Start with the question, then collect the data 

50:32 Making the invisible visible: advocacy for the vertical lift industry 

51:35 Closing: keep the blue side up

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Good morning, good afternoon, good evening wherever you are, and welcome back to another episode of The Ways We Move, the podcast that highlights innovative mobility solutions and the people behind them. My name is Nicola Zart, and I am your host on this podcast, and we're going strong almost a year and a half with still plenty to talk about. Um, and that's why I'm very excited about today's uh guest is François LaSalle, who runs VAI, the um well, the rotary flight uh uh group, international group that changed its name from HAI to VAI, and we're going to talk a little bit about why they did that, what the scope is, and also how Francois is replacing James Viola at the helm of the nonprofit. And what is the gold? What is it doing? Now I started laughing because I knew that Francois Lassa has a very French name, but doesn't really speak French. So we do joke a little bit about that, but I was very impressed with Francois's background from you know down to Africa to the UK, Indonesia, now in the US. Francois brings a wealth of experience and information. And definitely VAI has a lot of great things going for it right now. If you don't know anything about VAI, you should definitely head on over there. This is really the helicopter industry that brings it all together. They also work closely with another dear good group of ours, and that's VFS, the Vertical Flight Society. And together they do slightly different things, but also work together well. And it's a great family. It's a great bunch of groups to have that really represent advanced air mobility very well. And we're going to talk a lot about how does that conventional airspace, these conventional helicopters, how do they look at these so-called flying cars and air taxis, or what we now call advanced air mobility, AAM for short. How does that integrate into all of this? And of course, and always the importance of infrastructure without roads, cars mean nothing. Without rails and stations, well, trains are nothing. Same thing with without airports. Well, what do airplanes and helicopters do, right? So we do broach on that very important topic there. Please like and subscribe. This means a lot to us. It helps us bring up our numbers, it helps also Google uh push us up on YouTube. Go to our website, our sister publication. It's called electricairmobility.news, where you can also find a lot of articles. And I bring in about 20 years of experience when it comes to electric mobility specifically on the infrastructure side of things. I have a very good idea of what the ecosystem looks like. And this is what we do over here. We talk about all of these things. So, well, let's let's have Francois introduce himself and tell us a little bit about what is happening at VAI. Thank you all for watching. Please like, share, and subscribe always, and let us know your thoughts. What do you think the future of vertical flight looks like? Are we on the right track here? Well, Francois, thank you so much for being with us today on the ways we move. I'm very excited because we we've tried to schedule this for a little while now. But well, please introduce yourself. Who is Francois?

SPEAKER_00 3:29

Nicolas, thank you very much. And it's a very um when we get into my background, it I think it blows a few people's minds because they're like, well, hang on, you sound English. You have a French name, but you're actually African by birth. So it's confusing to most people. I speak colloquial French, I speak Afrikaans, obviously, and I speak Zulu because I learned Zulu growing up on the farm in South Africa. So I was born. I'll teach you how to say Saturday, Nicolas. Saturday in Zulu is Kabelu. You've got to be able to do the click. Um Kabelu is Saturday.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

I know how to do this.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

There we go. You've got it perfect. The tongue click. Kabelu. Yeah, so you know, I I spent obviously time growing up in Zimbabwe. This is where I was born, to a French father and uh a South African mother of Dutch descent. And so that's why I'm a mixture of everything. Whether I didn't get to learn French at school, I had to learn colloquial French, and as we talked about earlier, while my father was slapping me around the head swearing at me, I learned how to say a lot of French swear words.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Swearing in French, lovely.

SPEAKER_00 4:33

So, and I, you know, I I I joined the army in South Africa as a soldier. I was uh an infantryman in a Zulu battalion because I spoke Zulu to as a requirement. So it was a commander unit, uh, a Zulu commander unit. And um I went to war in in Angola. I served in Angola as a soldier. I uh, you know, I I was flown into the back of combat many times in the in the back of a helicopter. And uh I used to sit on the step with my feet out the door, going across the trees, going, Oh, this is so cool. And landing and jumping out to get into a firefight and looking at the pilot and uh and he was waving goodbye to go back for a cold beer. And I at that was that my epiphany was then like, I'm in the wrong job, I want that job. Uh yeah, exactly. So that's how I that was my sort of oh, I'd like I'd I'd like to do that. And no opportunities in Africa, so I ended up immigrating to the UK, whereas um I was a school teacher for a while, teaching geography and P, but while I waited to try and get into the Royal Air Force, I ended up getting into the Royal Air Force. And uh in this time I had to serve my French national service because I have a French passport. So yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I had to do uh I became a reservist in the French Army. I was still commissioned in the South African Army at that point, and then I became a commissioned officer in the Royal Air Force. So I was a commissioned officer in three militaries at the same time. Uh which exactly. Oh dear. So but uh started my journey in into aviation in the Royal Air Force uh back then. Um and uh I've been doing it 35 years, so we could go on and on and on about my my background, but you know, I I wanted to fly helicopters, I flew both fixed wing and helicopters in the in the Royal Air Force. Um, and uh I was very fortunate to be a VIP captain in the Royal Air Force on helicopters. I flew the Puma and also worked in the Special Forces, so I was a pilot in the Special Forces um and uh but never saw my my wife. And when she fell pregnant, it was time to try and get a more stability and went to the airline world. So I was in the airline world for for 20 odd years and uh ended up serving uh in the Royal Flight or the Emiri flight, now presidential flight in United Arab Emirates. Uh then left there, emigrated to the to the US because I did an exchange tour with the US Air Force in Colorado Springs, loved it. And so ended up moving there. Yes, yeah, exactly. Absolutely so I loved my time in America, but then we we ended up moving back to to the helicopter world and back to London as I uh worked with a a company called Helioshore, which was improving safety in the offshore sector. So oil and gas, wind farm and search and rescue. And I did that for six years, and then was offered a position as CEO in Indonesia, in Bali, with an operation down in Bali. It was uh utility longline flying helicopters for mining companies, but we ended up doing search and rescue and um a whole air tour operations. We did a whole lot of stuff with five bases across Indonesia. I got promoted to the group managing director of comp of the companies in Indonesia, and then uh Papua New Guinea, and we had a leasing business in Australia. So I spent my time down there. Uh and then VAI came calling, and so um ended up with the opportunity to come uh to VI, move back to the US, uh to Virginia and Alexandria, and uh that's where we are. It's a very potted history, Nicholas, of uh myself. There's a lot of avenues we could go down.

SPEAKER_01 8:05

Yeah, I feel like I'm with someone I can relate with because I also lived all over the world, went to international schools, so I I definitely understand that very, very well. Yeah, I definitely understand the pace very well. And also I'd come through that saying goodbye to friends all the time. I mean, that yeah, we're very familiar with it's yeah, your family has to be understanding.

SPEAKER_00 8:24

And my wife has been blessed, she's been dragged around the world and she's been very understanding. Um, and uh I dragged her from Bali to come to America, and let me tell you, that was a big deal. So I owe her a big one.

SPEAKER_01 8:35

I I understand. Uh you know, Bali, it would be hard to wrench me away from there. I I would say definitely uh I mean uh I I have a great idea of where I'm gonna spend my retirement if ever I do retire, which I don't think is all that likely in the end. But um there is one question I wanted to ask you. You said you were trained as a fixed wing pilot and as a rotary uh wing pilot. So when you were with the uh UK Army, you never thought about flying those uh VTOL C TOL uh Harriers, the ones that um you know ironically kind of uh ironically I did actually. You did? Holy cow. So that is one heck of a fast I know the history of the aircraft. That's a fascinating airplane.

SPEAKER_00 9:17

Or is it an airplane or yeah, well, I was called aircraft. So I I uh I went through flight training and and part of that process was to hold they in between courses they sent you somewhere to hold. I was saying I wanted to fly helicopters. The Air Force was saying, no, no, no, no, are you crazy? You must fly jets. This is what the Air Force is about. So they sent me to a Harrier Squadron. I uh I was kind of holding down the Harrier Squadron for two and a half years, so I got to go and fly harriers for a while. Um and then eventually they found uh they found a slot for me on helicopters, so that I went I went to go and fly helicopters. So um I was very, very, very uh lucky, very lucky.

SPEAKER_01 9:53

Yeah, because it I know a lot of people who have both experience, but to have the Harrier experience in the middle, now you have that middle ground, and that is one interesting aircraft, you say the least. So fascinating. It gives you really like a great background, so you are definitely in the right position. So so you you replaced uh James Viola now at uh at VAI. You actually went through the transition of the new naming. Were you there for the transition of the new naming, or was it on the I was it?

SPEAKER_00 10:24

It was under Jim. That was Jim's leadership uh to transition the company in or the organization into something that was gonna be much more relevant to this new world that we're looking at. I was part of it because I I was actually on the board at that time as the international advisor. So so Jim Jim approached me and said, Would you we we we're gonna rebrand it, but we have I in our name, and we're not that international. You know, we've got we've got members in 70 countries around the world, but you know, our focus has traditionally been the US market. Uh and I was like poking him in the ribs saying, Yeah, you you're not international, you know. So uh the board voted me in as uh as the international advisor, and I I joined I was on the board for three years, so I was very fortunate and and went through that branding um uh change uh in 2024, uh when we launched in Anaheim, I think it was Anaheim, yeah, it was Anaheim.

SPEAKER_01 11:18

Yes, it was in Anaheim. I used to live in Long Beach, so for me that was also you know, by the way, both of them were such easy drives for me. Long Beach to Anaheim, Savannah to uh Atlanta. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

Yeah, much easier.

SPEAKER_01 11:31

Much easier than traveling 12 hours anywhere. Yeah, absolutely. Exactly. Ah, okay, so you were also part of the transition. So tell us a little bit about um yeah, tell us about the transition and what what does VAI do now? And I like the international aspect of it, obviously.

SPEAKER_00 11:46

Yeah, so I I I'm very fortunate because the board is very progressive, I think. Uh, we've got a very good board, and the board recognized the need for that, the need to be more international, the need to be more relevant to the whole vertical lift community, and the desire was there to make that change. And so they made the change. And Jim was the person who kind of transitioned that the organizer from HAI to VAI. Um, and at that point, he got a great offer to go off to gamma. Um, and um, and and I was very fortunate to be selected to to step into the role. And so, and that's one of the reasons I took the role was because it was it's an exciting inflection point for us as a community because I saw the opportunity of well, we've got drones, you know, with the likes of Google and Amazon and Zipline and these major players who are gonna be using these things in congested airspace, and then you've got the advanced air mobility folks, you've got all the new eVTOL stuff, which is not a dystopian future, it's here. Um and then you've got the helicopters, and we're all operating in the same airspace, right? And we we share the same DNA. I think I think it's important to recognize that we're more alike than we are different. Design philosophy, sure, the way they operate, da da da, all that sort of stuff is certified, it's gonna be a little bit different. But for me, that was a fantastic opportunity to join at this time to now take the organization forward. So that's what excited me. And when I left the businesses I was running in Southeast Asia, people are like, Are you are you crazy? Why are you doing it now? You know, you're leaving a good job here and you're living in Bali, and why, you know? And I said, Well, it's not just to lead uh the VAI team. I said, this is an opportunity to help be a part of shaping a global vertical lift community. So to have some influence across a global community is a much more attractive thing for me. Um, and and to help shape this new inflection point we we we're staring at. So yeah, it was pretty cool.

unknown 13:57

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 13:57

So we kept the house in Bali because my wife wants to keep the house in Bali so she can go back every now and again.

SPEAKER_01 14:03

I would hope so. I would hope so. There's so much to do in Bali. I think Bali, well, the whole Indonesian islands, including Malaysia and everywhere pretty much down there, is just so ripe for advanced air mobility, or at least the potential of advanced air mobility. And that's something that I also wanted to ask you when it comes to VAI. I also think of VFS, and you guys are different, but also I mean, actually, when I think of advanced air mobility, my pillars are VFS, VAI, and uh AIAA, although AIAA to maybe a lesser extent, but also indeed AA too. But you guys have always been there, you guys have also been very open and friendly to us. I mean, I remember going to Anaheim years ago, and AAM was always welcome. And we've also gone through the transition from AAM is going to replace everything to whoa whoa whoa no, not at all. AAM is really going to connect the dots that are not currently connected. Correct. I I've really enjoyed this a lot. So, how how do you guys see the future? How integrating UTM into regular ATM with everything that we have right now under 5,000 feet is a major head scratcher for for most of us. And of course, thank God we've been working for a long time. But how do you guys see all of this going forward? And and what is the role of VAI in all of that?

SPEAKER_00 15:23

Well, I'll let you know that uh the one thing I do know for sure is that nobody can do it on their own. Nobody can pull this all together on their own, right? It's just not possible. Um, and that's why for us collaboration is absolutely key to everybody's success, including our own. Um, that's why we work with Vertical Flight Society, Angelo and the team there. Uh, we're actually gonna we I was just talking to them the other day on the phone. Uh and we're gonna try and do something for the first time as a joint fundraising event. We're gonna try and do that. Yeah, yeah. So that that that that's the area in which they're very strong is is fundraising and raising scholarships. And that's something they do very well. And so we're like, yes, absolutely. Let's work together on that. Let's let's, you know, let's do something together. So but that's exciting. Um, and obviously we have a very broad brush of things that we do as a as an international organization. And um I think for me, working together with with everybody is is a key enabler to the success. The airspace integration, you you raise a valid point. So, so, and it's something maybe we spoke about earlier, but I think that when you look at the whole vertical lift community, there's a lot of heat, money, and energy behind this advanced air-mobility, right? I I know they don't like the name, but let's stick with it for the moment. You know, if you look at how much has been invested over the last five years in the helicopter industry, just the helicopter industry in hybrid propulsion, low emissions, low noise, new rotor blade design, it's about six and a half billion. And these are very broad brush order of magnitude money, right? There's as much research as I could do, but that's tucked away in OEM budgets, in the manufacturer's budgets. When you look at how much has been invested in advanced air mobility over the exact same period, it's about it's about $28.5 billion.

unknown 17:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:12

So there's a lot of money, and that opens a lot of doors and it generates a lot of energy. And in certainly in the US, there is the the the administration is is is being very progressive about integrating advanced air mobility and drones into this airspace. They do want to be seen as world leaders, which is it's great. I mean, it is ruffling feathers because it's trying to move the government faster than it's used to moving, right? And so That's very well said, you're right. When I talk with uh Brian Bedford and Chris Rochelow, you know, they've got their hands full. They've they've got a very clear remit to to move this along. And but again, uh if I look to the agencies, if I look to ICAO, if I look to the operators, if I look to the manufacturers, if I look to us as associations trying to pull that all together, nobody can do it on their own. And that's why, you know, as we talked about earlier, the um the manufacturers of advanced ambitious, the the the new guys on the block are very focused on build design certification cell, right? That is a normal OEM journey, manufacturers' journey. Some of them are looking bigger than that, some of the look you know are looking at charging infrastructure and electrification, some are looking at the the bigger components like Eve, are looking at how they integrate ATC and how they bring that uh airspace integration together. You look at the cool stuff that the guys um beta are doing up in the the northeast in in terms of the you know, in terms of the cool stuff they are doing, it's it's mind-blowing. So they're not they're looking beyond just the certification of the machine. Absolutely. Which is interesting. And and like I said, each one of them has a slightly different approach to how they're going to do this, which is also interesting because it makes it challenging for the FAA in certification.

unknown 18:57

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 18:58

But the one the one key element where you know we can't help them with investment. That's that's their deal, right? They're working through that process. A lot of them have got agreements with airlines because it's very attractive. Have a big order book with the airline industry. But we're going, uh VAI, we're the ones that work in that vertical airspace that you're gonna be using. We're the ones that are keeping the the flight routes to the flight corridors open. We're the ones who are working to keep the uh we're the ones who are working to keep the um the heliports open in New York and Indy and uh various other places like that, you know, where we're in LA. And so these are the very things that you're gonna be using, that infrastructure you're gonna be using, which is what VAI does. This is what we do very well. And we've got a a very powerful lobbying team, we've got a very powerful regulatory team that works with the FAA, works on the Hill, and keeps these businesses going, right? And so and so I think a lot of the advanced MW folks are kind of looking at us going, Oh, yeah, actually, you're right. That that is true. You know, we need to be part of the VAI family because you know finally it's taken a while, but I think they they kind of see that now. And it's not it's not gonna be the skies is aren't gonna go dark even through their own admission with these machines overnight. It's gonna be a gradual integration. And the good thing is trying to put put all the dots together. Um, the FAA has got twelve and a half billion dollar cash inject to start um the advancement of uh new ATC. It because we're gonna have to. Yeah, there's only so much human controllers can do, right?

SPEAKER_01 20:35

And yeah, well, McGraw ADI, we yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 20:38

Um so when you when you think about drones, AM and helicopters in the same airspace, you you're gonna have to use ACAS, the new, the new version of TCAS. Uh you're gonna have to use AI and modeling separation, and it's you know, it's not gonna be it's not gonna be a controller sitting at a radar screen anymore, right? It's that that will have to evolve from that, you know. So and it's it's dragging some of the folks who've had a lot of freedoms in airspace in America, they've been very, very, very lucky in this country. Oh, yes, but in congested areas that's gonna change a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

And there's a little bit of hang on a second, uh, you know, I I want to be able to fly turning off your transponder because you don't want anybody to see your fishing spot is not a great idea. I totally understand, I get it, but uh now it's dangerous, guys.

SPEAKER_00 21:24

Yeah, and I think I think in the uh the vast majority of the US, where it's open air space is fine in a class D airspace, but when you get into class B and TMAs and congested areas, we've got to be sensible about this. And that's where BAI is you know advocating for the enhancement and safety and how we bring all this together. That was a long answer to your question, I think, Nicholas.

SPEAKER_01 21:44

And you've made so many points, and I'm struggling to remember. Oh my god, there's so many things I want to touch on. But you I think the the best point you've made so far, and this you know, this is my fourth disruptive technology um introduction into our civilization. This reminds what you just said how every of these AAM companies have. Have one little forte or four, four, as we say in French, right? But it's a big, gigantic puzzle right now, and it reminds me of the computer industry in the 90s. Everybody had one little thing that they were much better at. And so it's gonna be interesting to see how all of this uh comes out. Beta, I was, you know, I did try I have a very funny story about the beta simulator. Speaking of fixed wings and rotary wings, so I took off, you know, with my collector, I push forward and you know, we're flying, then I totally forget. I'm I feel like I'm in an airplane and want to come back down and hit that vertipad, except I'm thinking of it, you know, nose down, regular airplane, and whoa, what happened? So come back and come back until I realize, oh yeah, helicopters call crawl, crawl, crawl, crab. I haven't seen so far a company that really embodies all of it, and everybody has you know, WISC Autonomous, Beta has the ecosystem. My goodness, can we talk about the ecosystem here? Because I think it's so important. Every company has something that uh they can chip in. That's why it's so important you're right to work together. And you guys really are in the center of it all. I'm glad that they finally see teleports are the way to go. And by the way, one thing that we've been pushing so that they kind of get away from this idea of vertiport and EV tolls only is multi-ports, because indeed, like you said, we want drones to work, we want regular helicopters and airplanes to come and play with us, but yeah, we have to figure out what the ATM situation is, and so the big sticking point as well.

SPEAKER_00 23:28

Correct. Yeah, there's a there's no point in having a heliport just for helicopters or a verteport just for AM. It has to be as you say, multiport. That's true. We didn't I haven't used that word before, but multi-port is does make sense, right? And certainly if you're designing and building one, you'd be crazy not to make sure is certified for all things.

SPEAKER_01 23:49

You know, on the on the infrastructure side of things, I mean that's one of the first things we do look at is not so much the airspace, but the closest point of energy. How much energy can we get? Can we get local energy and storage? Uh we're gonna need electricity eventually, hydrogen, who knows, sustainable aviation fuels. But what is the public transportation? Where's the closest rail? Are there any waterways? I mean, uh it really is a a sort of a multi-port approach to it. And and again, I think it points to how advanced air mobility is yeah, it has the word air in it, but it's really linking the dots that are not currently connected right now. And I think your transition is really is really well done at the right time. And again, it is vertical flight, so so you guys are in the right place for this. So so you you've been hearing positive feedback around that notion.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

Yeah, uh absolutely. You know, I think the important thing to to ultimately realize is that they are still aircraft, they're aircraft. Right whether it's a big drone delivering Amazon parcels or it's a or it's a uh an EV toll or it's a helicopter, they are still aircraft operating in the same national airspace. And the biggest thing that we have to assure ourselves of is public trust. Right. So that is front and center a priority of literally every single one that we've spoken to and we've met. And that's why it was important for me to hit the road and go and visit everybody, which we've done, and we've we've met everybody in that is front and center. Now, I will say that our our board at VAI helped to create five strategic initiatives. And what I've done is as I've onboarded the organization is we've now created our five-year plan. And that is in service of those initiatives. The one thing that large associations like VAI tend to fall into a trap of is trying to be everything to everybody.

SPEAKER_02 25:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:45

And it's not possible because we have such a wide sector of constituents and members. And so we have to be very focused and targeted on in what really matters and what will make the change and what will keep safety, because safety underpins everything we do as an industry. I quote this regularly, but safety is the currency to our credibility as an industry. And so when I talk about public trust, I'm talking about safety. The rest does follow, right? So if if as an industry we're taking responsibility for our industry, we're advancing technologies to enhance safety in our industry. Not only you keep them flying safely, because you keep them flying safely, you gain public trust, businesses grow, and so it goes, right? Counterintuitive way of doing it, but that's exactly how it works. And as I look at the industry and we look at the whole ecosystem, the one thing that we haven't touched on yet, and it's one of our key strategic initiatives, is workforce development.

SPEAKER_01 26:42

Ah, yes. So yes, yes, yes, yes. Good point.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

Yeah, because you've got you've got a lot of new technologies coming in, and you you're gonna need to sort of fill places. A lot of them will be piloted, so there will be a pilot. Certainly some of them in the initial stages and they may move to autonomous, but some of them are designed to be piloted. You're gonna need electrical engineers and mechanics for this new world. And where do they traditionally pull from the helicopter industry? Yeah, you know, by and large, by and large.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

Yeah, yeah. It's once you know how to work on a helicopter, you you can pretty much figure out everything else. I mean, airplanes are I'm not gonna say easy, but they're probably slightly ever so easier.

SPEAKER_00 27:25

Yeah, oh, definitely. Um mechanically, an aeroplane is like way easier than a helicopter.

unknown 27:29

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:30

You're like it's uh what do we say, it's a million parts flying in close formation. A helicopter, you know.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

Very well said.

SPEAKER_00 27:37

All thrashing in opposite directions.

SPEAKER_01 27:39

Yeah, I you know, the the other one that I always like is helicopter pilots said, Oh, you guys in your airplanes, you can go to the bathroom. We can't.

SPEAKER_00 27:46

No, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 27:47

It's a hands-on experience, and there's no there's no the focus is on from the moment you hover to the moment you land and even after and before.

SPEAKER_00 27:56

Yeah, and so it's one of our strategic initiatives, workforce development. So we're we're building that out. It's part of our five-year plan to be very serious about building a pretty robust scholarship scheme. We have a foundation, so uh BAI has a foundation to to do that where we can accept donations and scholarships. We're working with the Vertical Flight Society and and we'll work with other sectors of the industry. We we had a good meeting with Ember Riddle the other day. I've been on the road talking to a lot of the schools, and uh we've visited schools in California, in Texas, in Arizona, in Florida, up in the northeast as well. So I'm going and visiting everybody.

SPEAKER_01 28:33

You know that you know that big one in Atlanta, right? Georgia Tech?

SPEAKER_00 28:36

Yeah, Georgia Tech, yeah, of course. Yeah, it's true.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

Fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 28:40

We visited a company called Rota in near Boston. And so what they're doing is they're working closely with Robinson on taking a helicopter but making it autonomous.

SPEAKER_02 28:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 28:51

And it's a bunch of young guys out of MIT who just, I mean, it was really cool to see it. Um, and and and again, a completely different approach to it, right? So they're taking a certified machine, but they're making it autonomous. So we're moving pretty quick. This industry is moving pretty quick, and this the AI wants to be at the center of it to make sure that all this comes together. But again, as I come back to my point about workforce development, we are staring at a 10-year cliff, I think. If our if our estimates are right, in terms of pilots and mechanics, just in the helicopter world. Never mind advanced air mobility or or or or the the um UAS world or RPAS world. So um the average age of a mechanic today internationally is 56 years old. And yeah. Incredible, right? And we we're not filling the pipeline quickly enough.

SPEAKER_02 29:44

No.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

So we've got to be smart about how we do this. This is before advanced air mobility starts getting traction and growing and employing more and more. Um, you know, is there's gonna be a demand to meet those requirements as well. So VAI is looking at trying to look at the whole ecosystem in areas where we can help support keeping heli ports open to be converted to multi-ports to include vertiport, electrification, fire suppression, which is gonna be important because it's different to traditional fire suppression, completely different. Absolutely. And um pulling all of this together is gonna require a big push. I don't want to diminish the amazing work that the advanced MBT folks have done in designing, building, and certifying these new technologies. It's mind-blowing. But I'd say it's almost the easiest part. Because when now you look at getting public trust, you look at electrification, yes, the the the how to build out the grid to provide high power units for rapid charging. I mean, this is a big hurdle, right? There's so much to do on the ecosystem side, as you said earlier. This is where VI wants to play a role and wants to try and help, and this is where workforce development can come. This is where bringing the community together to think about this, we play that role because these are all our constituents, and so we can be that conduit.

SPEAKER_01 31:02

Yeah, you you again you said so many important things in here, and it's public desirability that comes into it. Uh, you know, in aviation, you wake up with safety in mind, you go to sleep with safety in mind, you are basically working with human beings directly. Uh you're putting them up in the air, simple said, right? So you want them to land correctly and all of that. Um and you're also highlighting a really important thing. You're right, that and in every mobility and transportation uh segment, yeah, there is the vehicle, but then you have the infrastructure to the side. And so we were having an interesting conversation yesterday with Gailis at uh WSB. We were talking about how interesting it is that in the US, 97% of the vehicle makers are right here in the US, but in Europe, it's infrastructure, they have the infrastructure, the adventure mobility infrastructure companies out there. So we were trying to figure out why is that. And of course, then we started talking about well, you know, airports are privatized, maybe in in Europe. That might give them a bit of a leeway there, but whereas over here they're not. And so we're trying to figure out why is the discrepancy, and this points to our original conversation around it's incredible that about 97% of the funds are on the OEM part of it, which is the vehicle. And then you look at infrastructure, and there is practically nothing right now. Yes, we've heard about updating heliports and making them, you know, withstand the the heavier tonnage of these um electric aircraft, but there's a lot there's a lot of complexity. We've had Rex Alexander many times on this uh on this podcast. Um there's a lot of work to be done. And then finally, you you you said something that you and I have in common. We were both teachers, so I love educating people. One thing that we noticed in 2006, I was getting interested. I I came from a very traditional Bigatti Alfa Romeo Ferrari kind of world. And then all of a sudden I saw these electric cars, and I'm thinking, what the heck is that? And this is 2005, right? But I I drove one and I thought, heck, you know, this is like a you know, a lagger and an IPA. It's still beer at the end of the day. I like it. Um but the first questions we were starting to have thinking about the infrastructure is who is going to work on that? Obviously, electricians, right? And we have now that same problem in advanced air mobility is who is going to work on that? What does MRO look like? Because certainly overall cannot be everywhere at the same time. But you're going to have to ship these aircraft sometimes across the country to get them uh fixed. In the case of Indonesia, what happens when you're stuck on an island somewhere? Do we need a boat? Do we so there's still a lot of work that needs to be done? And I think, and that's really on the infrastructure side of things. And I think this is where you guys will do probably the best work here. At least that's the way I'm looking at it.

SPEAKER_00 33:49

I think so. I think um, you know, if you look in the it's certainly in the US, why is there so much energy here in the sector from the manufacturer standpoint to get these things? So whether it's PE, venture capitalists, investors, it's sexy to invest in aviation. It's not sex, it's not sexy to invest in infrastructure. No, I mean I I don't want to I don't want to break it down to that. There's a there's a million other reasons, but it's less sexy to spend money in infrastructure. That's where where us with all of our constituents, the manufacturers, the end users of these things, and the current operator community lobbying and working with governments, working with states, working with ICAO, working with IASA in Europe, working in other parts and regions of the world, and Brazil, very progressive. Very progressive in this area in Brazil, right? With the regulators. But I I come back full circle to what I said at the beginning. Nobody could do this on their own. And that's where governments are going to have to step in and say, okay, well, you know, we've got to provide some form of tax relief or subsidies or investment in this infrastructure to make it work. Because, you know, they they've they've put a lot into ATC. That's a good start.

SPEAKER_01 35:04

That's a good start.

SPEAKER_00 35:06

But that's in the US, right? And uh and in Europe, they they they're very progressive in infrastructure, probably much more so than here, but um a totally different operating environment.

SPEAKER_01 35:15

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 35:16

And much more congested. So and a tougher environment in which to operate, too, as well.

SPEAKER_01 35:22

That's true. I mean, the philosophy is very different. It's more top-down decision making, which probably facilitates a little bit, but at the same time can be a little bit slower, clunkier, bulkier. Over here, it's we get an idea, then we find the investors, and then we get going. But you know, again, pros and cons everywhere you look at it. But you actually made a really interesting point, and government should always step in to kind of get the ball going, but of course not, I mean, I'll take it forever either. And I think one state that has done a brilliant job, as much as beta has done a great job to transition from an you know a UAM air taxi company to an ecosystem taxi company with hey, by the way, we have two aircraft for you, is uh Florida. Florida really absolutely got it right to fund these vertebards, fund these multi-boards with the government money for now, and then after that, it will pay back uh through traffic, which is by the way, exactly how airports function, right? All around the US, right? You need that that federal money to get going, and then we buy the tickets, and that gets back into the system. And hey, it works pretty darn well. But Florida so far is the only state that has done that. I just wrote an article for the our website, electricairmobility. And it's it's fantastic. It's it's already there. There's the the blueprint right there. There you go.

SPEAKER_00 36:43

Yeah, it is some states are pretty progressive in this area, and um the northeast as well, are very progressive. Northeast too, yes.

SPEAKER_01 36:49

Yeah, definitely up, Utah, yeah, Washington, even Washington State, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 36:54

Yeah, I mean they've got the the uh the drone community have done a study in Dallas for a long time, for about 10 years now. So they've they've fully invested in that. And that that was actually you remember back in the day? It must have been about goodness me, when this all kicked off, it's been going for nearly 15, 20 years now, but probably about 10 years ago, they were talking about Uber working with one of the, I can't remember who it was, one of the advanced air mobility companies. Wasn't Lilium, it was one of the other ones.

SPEAKER_01 37:20

Yeah, it was. I mean, yeah, you you mean Uber Elevate when they had, you know, Joe B. Archer, all of these guys, and they were presenting. I mean, they gave us a blueprint of sorts, right? I'll be a bit naive at the time, but that was that was the impetus. That was the wow, finally we can do this.

SPEAKER_00 37:37

They said they're gonna start flying, and it was Dallas and Dubai, I think, and they're gonna start flying, I think it was 2025, they're gonna start flying with piloted vehicles.

unknown 37:45

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 37:46

I think they're still pursuing it in in Dubai. I don't know about Dallas, but anyway, Dallas was trying to embrace that as well. So Texas is pretty pretty progressive in that area, too.

SPEAKER_01 37:55

Texas is pretty progressive. I think that's one of the things that we also notice is that again, this is aviation, right? We're we're more conservative because of safety, because safety is first and foremost. We're not gonna be flying in New York City just yet, guys. We're gonna start flying where there are less. Uh there are lots of fields, lots of places where we can land safely. And of course, just like EVs, you know, it started with fleet owners, it was cargo, it was, you know, deliveries and things like that. So we're seeing that we're seeing that maturity in the in the industry. And I think it's uh and it's it's amazing that you guys are right there too, as a sort of a bridging platform between conventional airspace and this new wild frontier of uh of the air.

SPEAKER_00 38:35

It will happen over time. I think it it will be a transition. Let me give you an example. In London, there's a small airport in London called City Airport, which was sort of a more you know City Airport, right? So it's an international airport, but it's a small airport, and it was designed. It's a short runway. It's an interesting approach from a from an airline perspective, pilot perspective, it's an interesting approach. Um but that's why there's only small aircraft going there. But they built the Dockland Railway line from City Airport going into London, and that was an autonomous, that was an autonomous train. There was nobody driving that train. This was years and years and years ago. Everybody refused to get on it, nobody would get on it. We need a driver and a conductor. We're not stepping a foot on this train. And that's always an interesting story when I look to the world that we're looking at now in terms of public perception, public trust. You know, would you get on a machine without a pilot? And Dockland, okay, it's train, so it's different, it can always stop. But uh but the the thing is that the public refused to get on it. So they went, okay, we'll put a driver and we'll put a conductor on it. They sat there with their arms full because there was nothing they could do, you know, there's no controls. They just sat and that made made the public happy. They would get on it, and I think a year or two afterward, they pulled them off, and it's been going for decades.

SPEAKER_01 39:54

I've I've always wondered, you know, the the very first person who jumped on a horse and realized, wow, I can go faster and I can haul a lot more. The other ones, what were they saying? Whoa, we were not supposed to go on that. I I used to be a skier, and when the carbon fiber skis were coming out, could be not, but there were posters that said if God intended us to ski on fiber skis, we'd have fiber trees. And so, hey, you know, it's the way it is. Steam engine, same thing, electric motor, same thing, gasoline engine, same thing. New technologies do that, and biologically, we are supposed to keep 1% going back just in case anything happens to save the race. I totally get that, but it should not be the dictating factor. This is a once in a in a lifetime amazing revolution in our in our societies, and we're seeing it right now. And it's funny because when I think of autonomous, there's so many things that we now take for granted. But in the 90s, when I was teaching and computers were coming in, yeah, there's a lot of oh my goodness, and the classrooms are gonna be filled with computers, and well, lo and behold, there's still teachers in the classroom, we're still using our computers. In fact, we don't think give it a second thought, having a cell phone in our pockets listening to everything we're saying. Exactly. You know, you gotta do it slowly, the transition. Hence the public desirability, which is so important and dear to us, is we have to make it seem like it's cool. And quite frankly, the first time I saw an iPhone, I really didn't feel like I really wanted to watch a movie on a s on an iPhone. But yeah, in hindsight, that was a great move.

SPEAKER_00 41:24

Oh man, I was such a geek, man. I bought the first iPhone, I loved it when I first came out. Yeah, and now you've believed how do we live without these things? And then and then it's like, why do we live with them? They're so distracting. Uh and we're addicted to them. It's uh we've got full circle, right? Full circle. And um I've I've I've I've bought an electric car now and I love it.

SPEAKER_01 41:44

Yes, it's uh which which one did you buy?

SPEAKER_00 41:48

I got the Porsche uh Porsche Tycan. So yeah, so it's a rocket ship.

SPEAKER_01 41:54

Yes, it is, it is, it is. I uh I I got to see the uh lucid air in 2017 when Peter Rawlinson was uh introducing it to us, and it was just I was like, wow, we we've made it. And by the way, that was also one of the reasons why in 2014 I switched over because I felt like the Eevee world was already happening and and everything, but it was something else to see. Um, oh, it was uh who was it? Dufour aerospace uh flying already an acrobat airplane for for 45 minutes. I thought, wow, that's it. You know, and this is it now for sure.

SPEAKER_00 42:27

So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:30

We're now getting into the more personal part of this podcast. So I want to ask you more personal questions, such as what is wrong with you? What are you doing? I mean, this is absolutely insane what you've taken on as a role, as as what you're trying to do. So tell us a little bit about your motivation. What what gets you out of bed in the morning to do the things you do instead of just get a good old job and don't think twice about what you're doing?

SPEAKER_00 42:52

Yeah, I it that's a good that's a good question, Nicolas. It's so um I was your wife to come in and say, Yeah, no, she'll she'll give you an answer. She's probably not gonna give you the answer that I'm gonna give you. She'll she'll give you she'll agree more with what's wrong with you? What's wrong with your head? Look, I um I was running uh three businesses in Southeast Asia. It was it was a pretty good deal, it was a good gig. Um, you know, profit sharing the companies and uh um you know running a team of two two helicopter operators and at least a business, um, mapping out the future for building out a bigger group um of companies. Um living in Bali, it was you know, it was pretty cool. Um and then uh this opportunity came up, and um everybody said, Are you are you sure you want to are you only going to run a much smaller team? Okay, yes, it's the biggest, the biggest vertical lift association in the world, but it's a much smaller team compared to running three companies. And and I said, No, you're missing the point. The point is the ability to lead or at least. Least help lead a global industry and help shape a global industry. That is far more exciting. And it's far more exciting. It's it's very exciting. Not more exciting than what I was doing, but very exciting. And we're at this inception point. This inception point of bringing these communities together. So drones, advanced air mobility, and helicopters together, how we integrate that community, how we bring them together to understand that we are all vertical lift. We said that we share the same DNA. We're all operating the same aspose. We're all aircraft. And how do we do it safely? How do we how do we gain public trust? How do we, you know, it's so much easier to have that conversation with regulators, with lawmakers, with customers, with end users, with everybody if we are leading our own industry uh as safely as possible. So that for me was um one of the major driving factors to uh leaving our house in Bali and and moving to Virginia in Washington, DC.

SPEAKER_02 45:00

What a difference.

SPEAKER_00 45:01

So my my wife's still reeling from that decision. I think I'm gonna have to pay dearly for it. But uh this is so exciting. It's such a cool point to be, and I think I said earlier, you know, where we're now representing a much larger cross-section of the aviation industry, and that's to be at the to be at the front of that and and help lead that charge for me is incredibly exciting, and I'm very passionate about it. So um, yeah, that that's probably how my wiring in my head works. You know, when going to fly helicopters in the air force from fixed ring to helicopters where you thought I was crazy. Like, why do you want to do that? And I was like, I just love the idea of vertical lift and helicopters. So that's probably I don't know if that explains it, but that's probably uh the wiring in my head. It does why I ended up here.

SPEAKER_01 45:48

Yeah, it does. The passion is very palpable, and you know, the right man for the right job definitely that that comes across very well. And maybe another question to follow up with that is you know, for those uh who are listening or watching this podcast, what what would you like them to walk away from everything that we've talked about today? I know it's a very cliche kind of question, but it's also an important one.

SPEAKER_00 46:09

Yeah, I I I think there's a couple of things. For us, collaboration is very important. So I want people to understand that BAI is about collaboration. Yes, we we are one of the largest in the vertical lift community, but for us it doesn't that doesn't mean anything less than we we we want to uh collaborate in part with other folks in the industry to help move the needle. So for me, that's very important. Safety is the currency to our credibility, so it does underpin everything that we do and everything that we talk about and everything that we stand for. We created our values in VAI when I got here. I just wanted uh set out our values. It was part of the rebranding where the board worked on it, and uh, and what I did is I sat down with a team and we worked on our values, which comes out to an acronym called Spirit. And so and the S obviously stands for safety right at the beginning. We put safety first. Yeah. So, you know, and I and I think um so that that's that's kind of what we stand for, the space in which we stand, representing our community, and it's bringing the whole community together is the important part for us.

unknown 47:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:12

And the other message I'd like to give is nobody can do this on their own. What's gonna help us, and and I think another takeaway, is the fact that we are going to be pursuing data very aggressively. We've already started that program. So we will be data driven. The complexity is you'll have so many constituents making a demand on your time saying, hey, you should do this, you should do that, you should do this. And it's difficult. You get pulled in 50 directions. So we're gonna be very focused. The data will lead us in the right directions. It'll it'll highlight to us what matters, where the weak signals are, where we need to focus our limited resources and our attention. And that, um, and I say to the helicopter operators out there, and soon to be the advanced air mobility operators, the most powerful thing you could do to protect your operation, to protect your livelihood, to protect our industry, is when we do these focused studies, is to share data with us. And sharing data is very powerful, lessons learned, knowledge sharing, best practice. And then if you have a problem, you share that in a confidential, non-judgmental, anonymous way. And we've we we're building the platform to be able to do that. And I've done this before in a previous life with the offshore community, and it worked wonders because the operator community owned it, and it was the most powerful thing we did because now it allowed them to benchmark themselves. So um that I think that that there's so many other things I could talk about, but those are kind of the highlights and takeaways.

SPEAKER_01 48:38

Yeah, that and I think that that last point is very important. How to come how to offer a space that is non-threatening where you can share without feeling that you know your IP is gonna be shredded apart. I think that's really important. I've been using AI for the past three years, so I'm an avid AI consumer, and getting all of that data sorted out is something that that really will help with. It's not gonna run verteports anytime soon, but eventually one day, you know, that but that's besides the point. Let's shape today's future right now.

SPEAKER_00 49:08

Correct. Correct. And I always say correct, and I always say, you know, sorry, sorry, stepped on you there, but I but I always say the most important thing is you've got to know what question you're trying to answer. That's the start point. That's and so we will not be saying give us all your data and we'll figure this out. We have industry advisory councils, we get together with a bunch of very smart people. We'll look at what data we have today and where we need to focus, and we say, okay, well, what question do we want to answer? Let's get that data. Then we go to the community to say, give us that data. If you're in it, you get the benchmarking tools. Um, if you it's you know, pay-to-play. So if you're in it, you get the benchmarking tools. So it's it's about understanding what questions you're trying to answer. Then you focus the data on that. You build the smart analytical and AI platforms to help us produce reports. And we we are focused on getting an impact report into every lawmaker's hands every year. Very, very important because as an industry, we've been pretty poor at selling ourselves. And we're different to the airline industry, right? Because the airline industry moves people. We move, we do a whole lot of other things, right? We we put out fires, we save lives, we rescue people offshore, we we help produce uh barrels of oil, we build pylons, we build cell towers, we build infrastructure.

SPEAKER_01 50:20

Roads, infrastructure, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 50:23

There's so many things we do as an industry that people just don't see. And um, and um how we support GDP growth, how we support employment, that's kind of invisible to a lot of people. They just go, oh, these things are noisy. You know, it's like no no no. And so we that's one of the other things that we're gonna be doing with uh with data. So safety and advocacy are our two initial focal points on data.

SPEAKER_01 50:45

Well, I I I have to tell you, I have a lot of juice towards that. Advocacy is something that I've always done pretty much all of my life, actually. So that I I do uh understand that, and also just trying to get people to understand that hey, infrastructure is sexy, and even if you don't get that, well, infrastructure is the glue that bonds it all together. With that infrastructure, yeah, billion dollars investments are doing a diddly squat, right? So get on with it because infrastructure is sexy. And you made such a great point. You're right. The whole uh vertical flight industry does so much, and yet not uh not a peep in the press. So that's why we have this podcast so we can talk about these things and get people excited about it. And so it's been such a pleasure having you on the podcast today. I mean, truly an open invitation. There's so many other things that we need to talk about, and I really do look forward to having you back on the podcast. Um thank you, Nicholas. Um yo, absolutely, my pleasure. Um, any last words of wisdom before we say goodbye?

SPEAKER_00 51:41

I don't know if I've got words of wisdom or wise words. Um, but uh we'd always would always say at the air force keep the blue side up, stay safe, right? Um, and uh uh yeah, for me for me it's um you know safe flying to everybody. And uh uh I I look forward to joining you in the next one, Nicholas. It'll be fun. There's lots more to talk about.

SPEAKER_01 52:01

Absolutely, absolutely. I'll I'll share my line is uh there are more solutions and obstacles, you know. We just need to find them, that's all.

SPEAKER_00 52:08

Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 52:10

Thank you, Francois, and we will see you again very soon again.

SPEAKER_00 52:15

Thank you.