Episode 31 - Len Jessop - It is Not a Broken System "ALETHOPHOBIA"

Episode 31

Guest - Len Jessop & his partner Angela 

On this episode I am joined by author of A Lethal Phobia, Len Jessop, and his partner Angela — who wrote the foreword to the book.

Len is a father who has not seen his children in nearly three years. His love for them has never waned, his door remains open to them forever, and he is so proud of them both.

Shaped by a stoic father and a mother with a heart of gold, Len's personal story is one of sacrifice, resilience, and defiant endurance. We also find time to talk about rugby league.

In this conversation we cover the domestic violence industry and the uncomfortable truth that deaths are rising despite record funding. We discuss a peculiar and largely unknown Queensland law that Len believes represents a genuine risk to anyone accused under it.

We talk about how compliance, self preservation, and institutional preservation consistently appear to take precedence over uncomfortable facts — and why those who challenge the accepted narrative so rarely find institutional support for doing so.

We talk about the designed machine — Len's argument that the system is not broken but functioning exactly as intended. His criticism is directed at systems and institutions rather than individuals — and that distinction matters.

We discuss perception versus reality — and the framework Len developed for getting closer to truth. Base Reality plus Context plus Cui Bono.

He talks about choosing life when the darkness was at its deepest and why he believes nobody should throw away their ticket.

This is an honest, evidence based, and at times confronting conversation about a system that affects far more families than most Australians realise.

His book — A Lethal Phobia — is available now at alethophobia.com.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Father's podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered. If you're going through the fair full court process, particularly as a father, then this podcast may be relevant to what you may experience. Some things we discussed in these episodes may be triggering, and if you suffer from any form of mental health-related conditions or subject to domestic or family violence and need any assistance, then please call 500 respect in the hospital. The views and experiences discussed by people on our show are not necessarily the views and opinions of Brocke Fathers Podcasts or their guest speakers. We strongly advise you to seek your own independent legal and professional advice that the Brocke Fathers Podcast will not be laudable, answerable, or accountable for any loss of damage or litigation resulting from discussions on our platform. Right, this podcast is now in session. Guys, the judge is running late to court. So whilst we wait, I'd like to take this moment to acknowledge our platform sponsor, Straight Up Construction. At Straight Up Construction, they take pride in delivering high work across every trade. From new builds to renovations, no job is too big or too small. Director Luke Miller and his dedicated team tackle every project with integrity, hard work, honesty, and a commitment to delivering superior quality results every time. Straight up Construction is built on the belief that strong foundations matter just as much in the bones of the home as they do in the heart of one. Family should stand strong and every loving parent should maintain their right to be a part of their children's lives. Straight up Construction believes that in trusty spirit, everyone deserves a fair go. That's why we're proud to have Straight Up Construction as our platinum sponsor. With their support, we continue to produce the Broken Fathers Podcast and try to light on the struggles of men who have been let down by the system. Good morning, listeners and viewers, and welcome back to the Broken Fathers Podcast, Australia's first and only podcast dedicated to addressing family court issues from the perspective of fathers. I'm your host, Percy. Before I introduce my next guest, just a reminder the link for my podcast merchandise is in our bio on Insta, Facebook, TikTok, or just go straight to fkvx.au. Now, on today's episode, I'm talking with Len Jessop, author of the new book A Lethal Phobia, joined by his partner Angela. Len is a father who has not seen his children in nearly three years. He has navigated family court, criminal proceedings, and every institution that sits between a parent and his children. And what he found may go further than most people in this space have ever documented. Even if you think you know this space and or subject, there is research and evidence in this book that will stop you cold. He found a system that rewards narrative over evidence, a piece of Queensland legislation he believes can convict without injury, without witnesses, and without corroborating proof. A domestic violence industry receiving beans and funding while female deaths from intimate partner violences are rising, not falling. And he found that in Australia, a documentary presenting peer-reviewed evidence about male disadvantaged was banned from cinemas, while a handbook describing how to systematically destroy a man was sold freely without a word of protest. One word explains all of it alethophobia. The fear and rejection of truth. This is not one man's story. It is an evidence-based expose of the system that cannot afford to be honest. Len and Angela, welcome. Did I pronounce that word again? Probably.

SPEAKER_06 3:23

Expose.

SPEAKER_02 3:24

Or could corroborating. Somewhere a bit of a tongue twister. Guys, welcome. Thanks for coming down. Um appreciate you both for taking time out of your day to get here. Um before we crack in about your journey and also the book, I think it's important to know uh, mate, where were you born and what life was like for Len and both Andrew growing up, but we'll start with you then.

SPEAKER_01 3:47

Yeah, how far too?

SPEAKER_02 3:49

Mate, it's your this is your story. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:52

So I basically um I was born in New Zealand, um, Auckland, New Zealand, and uh then we traveled over uh to Samoa.

SPEAKER_02 4:03

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

Up here, and um that was where I had my first primary school and um it was wonderful over there. And then later on we came back to New Zealand and um and then life eventually led me to uh from New Zealand to Australia.

SPEAKER_02 4:21

How old were you into Samoa? Uh I was around about four siblings? Yes. How many? Uh three others. Oh yeah. Uh what was the purpose of moving to Samoa?

SPEAKER_01 4:32

Not really known. Okay, I was brought up in a very strict uh uh environment where children uh didn't ask questions, they followed. And uh dad was dad was a very stoic individual. Um and mum a loving heart of the family woman. So Yeah, nice.

SPEAKER_02 4:51

Yeah, I uh my grandfather's Samoan. Okay. Yeah, my grandma's Fijian, my dad's Q, my mom's Australian, but everything's in Lebo or Greek, so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:59

Yeah, well I I I usually got the the Lebanese or the Mediterranean look and and uh no I'm not one of them, but uh no I'm very proud to be, you know, have that part of me in me and and uh yeah, it i it it it gives you a good sound basis in life.

SPEAKER_02 5:17

Who do you go find Lee League Union?

SPEAKER_01 5:18

Oh no, I was I was originally a rugby union supporter, uh coming from New Zealand. Um but half the reason why I left New Zealand was to come to Australia because I was sick to death of the favoritism showing in the media to rugby league. Yeah, to against rugby league. So uh in regards to supporting I uh I followed a like anything else, I followed a um underperforming team, always like the underdogs. Yeah. And uh so I supported um Cronulla with with uh Andrew Ettinghausen and and uh it was just like anything else when you're a youngster you you you follow speed and back in New Zealand uh the only way we could get rugby league, the Winfield Cup, was to go up to the local video store and and and it'll give us a two-hour yeah, something like that. Uh uh a two hour uh coverage of the Sydney Premiership at that time. And so, you know, ET was quite quick back in those days, and and then like anything else I just followed through with that.

SPEAKER_02 6:21

Yeah, nice. So how old were you when you came to Australia? I was twenty-seven. So New Zealand, Samoa back to New Zealand? Or New Zealand, Samoa, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:28

Yeah, so New Zealand, then to s Samoa, and then New Zealand, and then 2002 came to Australia.

SPEAKER_02 6:36

And so what when when you finished high school, what was the plan then?

SPEAKER_01 6:40

First job or no, it was uh I basically survived school, I'd say, uh uh as opposed to dominated school. Yeah. Um a lot of my crew left in '92. So um we had one more year, and my mum wanted me to do it, and because I come from a strict family, um, you didn't really question that, you just did it. Yeah. Um, and uh so I survived uh my last year, and you know, there's always positives to whatever situation you're in, and uh made formed some really strong relationships back then.

SPEAKER_02 7:17

Yeah, nice. So when you first moved to Australia, where where'd you go? Brisbane?

SPEAKER_01 7:21

I was always Brisbane because in my tertiary studies, when I was doing my tertiary studies, um I uh kept on coming over to Brisbane to watch the state of origin um and uh in the semester break and uh basically with New Zealand there was always that thing about rugby union. Um so with Brisbane, it was you know a rugby league town, all the rest of it, and uh you know Lang Park was always great to go to and I went to the 10 10 10, I remember that, you know, pouring rain and you know, people getting taken out of the stadium because they're suffering from hypothermia. You know, and it was a and uh that was before it got developed. And uh I said, you know, New Zealand had a smaller market, an employment market. You had to obtain experience you know, and and if you couldn't get that, it was a catch-22. You w you finished your studies, but if you haven't got the uh experience, you wouldn't be getting a job. So it was like, oh well, I'll go over to uh uh Brizzy and without a job and uh you know just work my way up from there.

SPEAKER_02 8:34

Yeah. And what your first job here?

SPEAKER_01 8:36

First job was a teller.

SPEAKER_02 8:38

A teller.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

I've never been I never worked in banking. Oh yeah? Yeah, so I I was a teller and uh you know I worked with four other ladies. Uh and uh uh basically uh there was a bit of an environment, but you know, it was a starting block and and like I said, you know, I've always preferred to work at the very bottom and then understand the foundation and then work work my way up. Just a plug it.

SPEAKER_02 9:01

Yeah, right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:03

How long did you do that for? Uh about a year, and then the boys, the the the lending boys basically said, you know, uh we should get you behind the scenes, and then I became a loans clerk, and then from there became a residential lender, and then from there I I basically then uh became a junior account executive in property. Who and well what bank was that with when you first you know because I knew of the rugby league, unlike every other uh institution that supports the corporate sports like union and AFL and and cricket, uh St. George was affiliated with Rugby League, so it was kind of like fate. And because it was opposite Cronulla, I knew that it'd be close by if I had to do training in Sydney.

SPEAKER_06 9:51

Oh, because of the league.

SPEAKER_01 9:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:52

Well that's yeah. A lot of people forget that uh St. George or I Illawai, they've uh got the record for eleven straight premierships. Yes. You know, so yeah, everyone talks about premiers and hats off to them, but yeah. I think was it there in the seventies or something?

SPEAKER_01 10:06

Well well this is where this is where the rivalry comes. And the rivalry comes because and a lot of people thought before it was ten years in a row, but it's actually eleven. And it was because of the Rabbi League at that time had unlimited tackles. So if you had possession, you couldn't. Yeah, so you if you had possession of the ball, you basically dictated it. And because of what was happening with St. George at the time, um Cornella came in and stopped it. So the moment Cronulla came in in 67 with Penrith, they stopped St. George winning um uh the premiership again for the twelfth time, thirteenth time, whatever. I'll just learn that. Well, because they they they took the some of the players.

SPEAKER_02 10:52

Ah, okay. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:54

You haven't got that whole market to yourself. Yeah. So um yeah, yeah. So I was I was mad researcher on rugby league back then and the rest of it.

SPEAKER_02 11:04

Um well I'm glad you didn't follow the Broncos because I hate Broncos.

SPEAKER_01 11:08

There's a bit of a soft spot when I go to Lang Park. There is a bit of a soft spot because you know, Brisbane's given me a lot.

SPEAKER_04 11:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:15

And uh I I never forget So you're you're Queenslander? No, I'm New South Wales supporters. That's good. Same. Because of uh, you know, because of the because of the Crenola. And the thing was was that I actually felt sorry for Queensland back in 2000 and uh year 2000. Uh because they got beaten by 50. Yeah, yeah. And uh and uh you know the supporters started to go to AFL. Oh, did they? There you go. And uh Queenslanders don't like losers.

SPEAKER_06 11:42

Also because the Lions were winning.

SPEAKER_01 11:43

That's right, they don't like losers. They like winners. And and so I went, oh, you poor Queenslanders, you know, State of Origin's all about Queensland. Uh because if New South Wales won it continuously, Queensland might, my theory, swing over to a uh uh a different sport or whatever that are winning. Yeah. So Queensland continually need to win Original. This is the theory of his that we're better.

SPEAKER_02 12:15

Queens leading Broncos?

SPEAKER_06 12:17

No, I don't go for Broncos.

SPEAKER_02 12:18

What do you go for?

SPEAKER_06 12:19

Well, I don't really have a team currently, but I used to go for Canberra. But yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:24

What did you go for Canberra? I don't know. You still did either. That just shows my age.

SPEAKER_06 12:32

My dad was a rugby league referee growing up, so I was my life was rugby league, and then I went off it for a long time until I met Len. So now it's my life again.

SPEAKER_01 12:45

Uh um, but uh yeah, no, I I uh I've been I'm pretty outspoken. I think you kind of like figure that one out pretty early. I'm pretty outspoken. Um and I basically said to a degree that they've got to keep the money flowing. And uh and uh basically in regards to the origin, I've always questioned some of the selections and I go, well, you know, it's got that I don't know if you've heard of that basketball uh game between the Washington Generals versus the um what was that great basketball with all the skills uh the uh the American team, what's it called? Globetrotters. And I said, Oh, well, is it the Globetrotters again versus the Washington Generals, which means Queensland's gonna beat New South Wales. Because they pick a bad side. Because the Washington Generals haven't picked the right side, so of course they're gonna lose. It's just by how much. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Because you look at it and you go theory. Well, it's a theory, it's a theory, but it's like, well, why would you have that play? You know, he gets dominated in club football, but you still pick him because there's a lot of politics in the New South Wales selections. And uh so then uh no one likes to hear that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 14:01

I um so at um I assume at one point you meet someone and have kids.

SPEAKER_01 14:10

Yeah, yeah, no, I sure did.

SPEAKER_02 14:13

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SPEAKER_01 15:42

You know, it's it's it it's a chapter that um a big chapter. It's it's a big chapter and it and it forms um a a big part of your life. You know, I was uh I was affected for uh a big period of time. Um and uh at the end of the day, you know, when I look back, there's some fond memories. You know, you're gonna be able to do it there there's no doubt about that. Uh I just made wrong choices. Um and I got no one else to blame except for me making those wrong choices. You know, that's what an adult does. Um, you know, and um well I believe. Uh and um so when I look back, I only remember the good parts. Yeah. Um if you don't mind me asking how did you meet your ex-partner? Oh, we kinda like um we kinda like uh worked in a certain at a certain particular place. Yeah. And you know how people talk and all the rest of it and and and uh you know, rumours go around and and uh so then me, 'cause I'm usually up front, I then asked the question. Yeah. So i i it started from there.

SPEAKER_02 16:59

Yeah, right. And um how long were you guys together before you had your your first child? How many children do you have, sorry? Oh, I ha have a couple. Couple, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:07

Yeah. So but the first uh you know, we we went uh probably you're looking at uh sixteen years in.

SPEAKER_02 17:14

Oh yeah, well, okay.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

Yeah, so you know, we there was different look, you know, communication is key uh is a key and people have different versions and everything else like that. Um and uh yeah, I I I uh w we didn't have children until a long time. I wanted children early on because my dad was old. Um you wanted to give them a I wanted to play with them in the same team. Uh what you know, and that that was uh that was one of those things, you know, you league league people they have kids young. You you look at it, they're always around babies. And uh or you know, you want to play with them in your same team and and so you know the earlier you can have them, the more likely you're gonna play with them. And um so Did did you guys get m married at one point? Oh yeah, we sure did.

SPEAKER_02 18:05

So how long were you so sixteen years before you had kids? How long were you together before you got married? Ten. Ten, okay, yeah, wow.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, we we we had a relationship that um we kind of like we're together without the actual marriage certificate, if you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_02 18:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

You know, we kinda like so uh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:24

Yeah, okay. Um which is kind of unheard of these days, I guess, you know, different generation like people getting married like w within twelve months. Oh, are they? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 18:36

It's either quick or they wait for a long time.

SPEAKER_02 18:38

But you know, I always said if you know, if I was gonna get married or or have kids that I wanted to be with, uh, you know, when I met my ex-brot six months she was pregnant, I wasn't expecting that, and I always thought I'd be with someone for at least two years, and even that's not a long time, but at least it's some sort of fudge factor filter, but that that's not how it played out. But um Alright, so together six uh got married ten years later, still together another six, then you had your first son?

SPEAKER_01 19:05

Yeah, well, just go back a little bit. Sorry. No, you are um one of the key things with me is uh I like to keep my word. Yep. Alright, because I'm I've been brought up the old school way. And there is only one thing that I fear, and that's God.

SPEAKER_04 19:24

Are you Christian?

SPEAKER_01 19:26

Well, I wouldn't say I'm a practicing you know, one practice. Yeah, Christian Christian belief, but but the whole thing is is that when I devoted myself uh when I got married, that was huge. Like it it was wasn't one of these commitments. It it's commitment, you know, you're either for it or you're against it, you know. And um, you know, I I I I did my vows in front of God and I and because I have that belief, you know, I would do everything anything possible to make sure I kept to those vows because I view them higher than the human uh aspect of it or it's a very spiritual thing. And um so when things were happening that weren't uh favorable to me, you know, you're kinda like because you're being brought up and say, well, you know, you made your bed, you lie in it, you know, and you know, you gotta do whatever you need to do, you need to compromise, you need to think, you know, all this kind of stuff. You're kinda like when you stand back from a outside looking in, you know, you're kinda like trapped in a bit of a way because you've gone, well, hey, I I just gave my promise that for thicker and you know, for th better or worse, all that kind of stuff. That's very important. It's not just oh yeah, something hasn't gone my way, I'm out of here. Um and I believe, and I once again I'm gonna be outspoken, I believe today's culture makes a mockery of marriage.

SPEAKER_02 21:01

I agree, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:02

And and they put on stupid shows. Yeah, which which basically just rubbishes the whole commitment and digging in and working as a team, you know, it becomes all individuals as far as I'm concerned. And I came from a not from an individualist uh viewpoint. I I always came from a family that you're you know, like a unit, like that's where the Pacific Island background comes where you you you're family oriented.

SPEAKER_02 21:32

I want to know this I was trying to look, I was speaking to someone the other day about uh I want to know statistics in regards to islanders, like say some minds, the divorce rate, 'cause you don't I mean, I could be wrong, but you don't really is the divorce rate higher in in the islander culture 'cause I do not know.

SPEAKER_01 21:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:48

But uh sorry, yeah, w I was speaking to my partner about this the other day in regards to marriage these days and you know, it doesn't have a high success rate and d you know, I think social media's played a big part, you know. Um probably some other factors, I'm not too sure. I haven't dived right into it. But um, you know, Mass, I mean, how many seasons have they had and how many successful marriages I think they had one in the first season and that's it? It's not really marriage.

SPEAKER_06 22:11

So yeah, I know, I know, you know, but um But it's a it's a sim it's a it's an example of what society's like in a broader sense though. Yeah that people was like there's always an option to get out or find something better rather than commit to the thing you actually said you're committed to.

SPEAKER_02 22:28

Yeah. Plan B, plan C is a temptation in the background.

SPEAKER_06 22:32

Yeah, there's no real commitment or um yeah, longer view, it's always which we agree on. One thing we agree on. We don't agree on everything.

SPEAKER_01 22:46

No, no, we definitely don't agree on everything. That's the beautiful thing about it is that you know uh w with Angela, you know, I we talk about we we we forever talk and we talk about a whole bunch of different topics, and you know, she can basically agree on one uh believe in one thing and I can believe in another. But at the end of the day, even though we disagree on things, it's okay, the love and dedication and care for the other person is still there.

SPEAKER_06 23:12

Yeah, there's no my way or the highway.

SPEAKER_01 23:14

Yeah, and it's and it can be confrontational in regards to the topics that we talk because I can talk about nearly any controversial topic, um, and so it's harder for Range. Um, but at the end of the day, our relationship is not disingenuous, it's real. And I really appreciate that.

SPEAKER_02 23:36

Nice. Yeah. Um, so sorry, where you had your first son. Um I don't know if you how much you want to go into that, but was was there any, you know, sort of cracks in the relationship leading up to that at a certain time frame in the relationship?

SPEAKER_01 23:53

Like there are cracks in the first week. Uh like, you know, when you when you analyze it and I'm an analyst by trade, um there were there are cracks and there are red flags probably on both both sides, you know, to be fair. Um but you know, we're kind of like chalk and cheese, and we kind of like just balanced out. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like, you know, we weren't we weren't really similar, but we were chalk and cheese. So her benefits would negate my weaknesses, and my benefits would negate her weaknesses. Do you know what I mean? And so you're balanced, but were we really on the same track in a lot lot uh a lot of different things? No, to be fair, I w I wouldn't say so.

SPEAKER_02 24:41

Um can you remember, you know, I always ask every father coming becoming a father for the first time?

SPEAKER_01 24:48

Yeah, well, um i it's the greatest thing that's ever happened to me. You know, and um, you know, she did a magnificent job. Uh and I I always I always, you know, state when people do a great job. Yeah and and she did. Um and uh, you know, just I can still see them now and all the rest of it, you know, me cutting the umbi umbilical cords and you know, but me also being very fearful for whatever reason of you know, the things that can happen where kids get disappear or anything else like that. I've always been very safety first, risk adverse um in regards to that. Uh so um that kind of like, you know, later on in life I moved away from the service centre. Not the service centre, the the uh child care centre because I believed that children can never be looked after properly uh based on numbers uh as opposed to a parent that stays at home and looks after them. Yeah, because you've got so many other kids to look for and all the rest of you know, they can only do so much. And we'd turn up sometimes where certain things weren't done. And you know that to me, when you have kids, you know, y they come first, but that's just me. And that that means you go backwards, you do, because they need you. And um I guess that's a bit different from a lot of people where they're forever trying to like evolution, they're trying to forever increase or improve themselves. And for me it's more a consolidating period because they need and then once they've can talk and all the rest of it, then you start worrying about yourself and your career. That's the way I believe in, anyway. Because there's only a short period of time, yeah. Really, when you think of it, and then when you grow up later on, you can look at the mirror and you go, Well, I did the best I could.

SPEAKER_02 27:05

Um and was the time distance between having your second child? No, twins. Oh really? Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01 27:13

So we had we had twins. What was the time um gap minute? Oh wow. And uh the the we we had them and um that's why I mean she did a magnificent job. And I was always very I remember going to a concert with her and I was very protective, you know, because she was showing and all the rest of it. And uh so yeah, no, no, no. It happened and uh yeah, so instead of the normal family where it's usually one, we had two and different sexes. So you know, it was uh it was it was challenging. Uh uh you know, any any parent, you know, it's challenging. Yeah. And uh and uh you know I all I recall was that many other people had par uh had children and uh not to um not to stroke you know a bit of arrogance or anything, but usually whenever we went to parties we'd be able to put one down. Uh the only reason we couldn't match the other parents was because we had to put two down. Yeah. But but uh they're the best things that ever happened to me. Yeah. Uh the the birth of the children.

SPEAKER_02 28:27

And what was life like at Justin at home, first time parenting twins too?

SPEAKER_01 28:31

Yeah, well that will, you know, and my dad died soon after. Oh, sorry, yeah. Yeah, so you know, he he basically um there was a Skype video that we did, and he finally because I was I'm the youngest of the family. Yep. And where was he living?

SPEAKER_02 28:47

New Zealand. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:48

So we had a Skype and uh, you know, he he was able to see them, and I I can still see him reaching, uh yeah, reaching for the kids. And um uh I was just glad that he finally saw them, and then after that, you know, it wasn't too much longer and and and uh he passed away and yeah, and so you know she did she did a great job looking after them because I obviously had to go to New Zealand. Yeah. Uh so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:14

Uh is your mum still off? Yeah. Back in NZ?

SPEAKER_01 29:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The heart of the family. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the old mother. Yeah. So uh yeah, a wonderful, wonderful person.

SPEAKER_02 29:25

So where do we go from here, mate? You've had your twins, fortune your old man's passed away. Uh w w what what's life looking at from from here moving forward?

SPEAKER_01 29:34

Well, the career, like I was I was um my working career had uh you know, there'd just been a trajectory up. And um uh so I was basically concentrating on that. And uh I was in, you know, writing to executive credit committees, you know, strategic papers, all the rest of that kind of stuff, and and um so uh, you know, there was a bit of pressure there because I'd gone to a new organization. You you know, you had to start from the bottom to a degree on the systems and everything else like that. And you know, at home you got, you know, kids that need attention, you know, ETC, ETC, but uh and so I eventually just went, you know what? I work with cash flows every day of the week, I'll figure this out. And uh so I basically implemented a few strategies to make sure that we never went back uh financially. And uh if anyone basically missed out, it was me. You know, because you you you're basically making a conscious choice, and that's what my family was brought up on was to be selfless to help the other person. And uh that's a very underrated trait, I believe, in today's society where it's a lot about me, me, me. Uh we were brought up in a different way. So um is that air conservation here? I think it is, isn't it?

SPEAKER_06 31:07

And you should just say what you did then, which was to actually stay home. Yeah, no, actually. It is a little bit cold.

SPEAKER_02 31:13

Yeah, you just tell me because I don't want you freezing the death on me.

SPEAKER_06 31:17

No, you're making it colder.

SPEAKER_01 31:26

Um sorry, maybe. Yeah, yeah, so just like you know, Angela said. Um yeah, no, I so once I did that, um, because I believed uh the kids needed a person at home to look after them. Um once certain things were set up and because I knew when cash would come and cash would go, all the rest of that kind of stuff, I then basically decided to with approval, decided to resign from my career. Uh uh even though I was on that trajectory. I resigned and I basically stayed at home for a couple of years and uh basically um made sure that they got the foundation and everything else that they needed to. And I I tell you what, you tell me many men or even women that would sacrifice their career for their kids, there wouldn't be many.

SPEAKER_02 32:25

No, it's the first one I've heard.

SPEAKER_01 32:27

You know, it's one of those ones where because like I said, because I worked in cash flows and I knew when the big bills would come and all the rest of it, so I timed it and I used the tax system to do whatever it needed to do to our benefit. And and uh and if there was, you know, because I work in risk risk management and all the rest of it, I basically had mitigants. So in a financial sense, we never went back. Now you tell me when you lose a good income, you tell me how many families out there don't go back. That's near impossible. But because I prepaid a lot of expenses twelve months in advance, there was no outlay needed, if you know what I mean. Well played. Do you know what I mean? So that so so I remember walking, because I I re I I vividly recall walking from Lang Park, and um what had actually happened in that stage was a certain organization was I felt tried to trying to convert me back to rugby union. So they were putting me up in the corporate box. I think I went to about five or six games, and they'd even pick you up from your house. And because I knew I was a league, and I'm in the corporate field, so I'm a bit different, you know, because league's just seen as a lower class sport in the corporates, right? Only St. George's really the one that's been recently. And um, you know, I just went, yeah, we're just as good as any other sport out there. Yeah. And uh so, you know, I kind of but I remember walking home because I needed to make this big decision, and when I'm walking home from Lang Park, I basically uh figured out okay, this is what I need to do. Yeah. And so that's what I did. And I tell you now, it was then the hardest two years of my life, but it was very, very rewarding. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very, very rewarding. I'm the youngest, the only ones I used to look after were the dogs. Like they looked after me. And now I've got two kids, and I'm having to and then you're and then you're watching TV, and the TV's all kitty programs, and you're going, you're losing mentally, you know, a lot of things. But you're seeing your kids grow. And that that is priceless. And and uh, you know, uh people underestimate that because when you grow up later on, you wish that you'd done that. And who were you satisfying? People that seeing you buy another house or anything else? Like who are you really satisfying in the external part? And and and and a bit of the stuff that's in my book is where I basically say that your internal satisfaction, the man in the mirror, is a bigger satisfaction than public reputation. Because public reputation is oh, if people like you or they don't like you. But if you basically had that internal strength that you can look in the mirror and go, hey, you know, I've done whatever I've done, you know, I didn't hurt anyone, blah, blah, blah. I'm a good person, blah, blah, blah. That's all you need. And you know what's right and you know what's wrong. Yeah. That's the the big part, you know.

SPEAKER_02 35:41

So you mentioned those two years, um, you know, the hardest two years of your life, but priceless. Yeah, they're and actually helped out helped me out later on. Well, what happens after that two-year mark?

SPEAKER_01 35:54

Well, then I went back into um I went back into uh into work um because now you get into a stage where they're going to be nearly entering school.

SPEAKER_03 36:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:05

So now they can talk. Now that you don't have to worry about whether or not they chew something that they're not supposed to have chewed, or do you know what I mean? Like when you're a parent, it is harder, I don't care what anyone says to a degree, the parent job when they're from zero to four years, is harder than going to work. Going to work is easy compared to staying at home, and we have to be patient. You have to basically, you know, you you're basically caring for those people to make sure that they're they're they're not doing something silly or you know, and you become tired and all the rest of it. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:46

Um so you go back to work?

SPEAKER_01 36:48

On a part-time ma basis. Part-time. So then I'd be looking I'd be working for a couple of days, and then basically the rest of the week I'd be looking after the children.

SPEAKER_02 36:59

Yeah, I got you. Um was your ex at the time, your partner at the time, your ex was she working?

SPEAKER_01 37:06

Yeah, she's she's always been very, you know, career-minded.

SPEAKER_02 37:09

Yep, yep. Um how did she adapt to parent-parenting life then?

SPEAKER_01 37:15

Well, I guess the the this is kind of like the tricky one where only she kind of like knows how she adapted. Yeah. Um, so I'm gonna be pretty political on that. That's right. Uh you know, she look, she's got her strengths. And she had strengths, and uh, like for you know, and um shared contacts, uh, she's more, you know, uh socially uh fluent and uh compared to myself, I'm a bit more of a loner.

SPEAKER_04 37:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:43

So um, you know, and uh you know, we we benefited from from parts of her connections and all the rest of it.

SPEAKER_02 37:51

Yeah. Um do you have more kids later on down the track? No, I wouldn't mind having kids with Anne, but so do you just ship the twins down? You've got the twins? Yeah. Okay, that's it. Okay. Um I assume at some point crack crack starts starts f I know you mentioned it early on, but um uh at some point down the track do you uh uh is there like a hiccup in the relationship that sees you go you you your different ways?

SPEAKER_01 38:28

Um what what do you mean?

SPEAKER_02 38:31

Like well so like I'm just trying to try and do do your timeline. Um so like is that is there a certain point where the r the relationship breaks down?

SPEAKER_01 38:38

Yeah, yeah. Th you know the the relationship uh kind of like um you know, like I said, we were we're a chalk and cheese and so there's things that we kind of like disagreed on, whatever. Um but it kind of like it kind of like hit a point um after the kids had entered school and um I don't know what really happened in regards to whatever went into people's minds or whatever it is, I don't know. All I know is uh uh basically I saw a change in behaviour. In in in the kids or you Oh no, no, never the kids. Never the kids. There are the the kids kids and I were like that. How how were the kids at the time? Around about uh well they're just before they went to school. What primary school, high school? Primary school. So uh six years old? No, like younger than that. Younger than that. Yeah, yeah. So so basically, um, you know, only only that person knows what was going through their mind at that time. I don't. Um all I know was that I was just trying my best to keep the family together. And that's you know, and one of the things which was a strength but also a weakness was the fact of my pledge to God.

SPEAKER_02 40:01

What were some of the things that changed in your your your ex or your partner the times? Like mannerisms or behavior?

SPEAKER_01 40:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well see, the thing is is that um like I said, I'm a I'm an analyst. Yeah. So I I I look at body language, I I've got a good memory. And so if I can sorry.

SPEAKER_02 40:26

Memory of an elephant.

SPEAKER_01 40:28

Well, this is the interesting thing. When I really care about something, I've locked in. I'm locked in. I don't really there's a lot of things that I don't care about. And my my tension just goes elsewhere. I can't even remember.

SPEAKER_06 40:41

But you remember what people said. Yes. And then if they change what they say, you go, hang on a second.

SPEAKER_01 40:47

Well, that's the great thing. Hang on. And it's used to get annoyed at me. I'll hang on, you know. And it's because um when I'm doing the hang on, I'm going, well, I'm rewinding the tape. Yeah. And because you know, it's um yeah, anyway.

SPEAKER_02 41:08

Oh, um, so y your twins, they've just started school, you notice uh mannerisms or behavioral stuff changing with your ex partner at the time or your ex. Um where two from here.

SPEAKER_01 41:23

Well, well, basically that then led to um uh it became combative. Yeah. Like the the relationship, you know toxic. It eventually turned toxic. I didn't want it to turn toxic. Um, you know, and I've got parts of it probably where I'm to blame, you know. When you ever get into an argument or a disagreement or whatever, there's always two parties, there's never one. And uh it just depends on the percentage that you've um contributed. Um and uh I just you know yeah, it just went toxic and um yeah, yeah. Alright. Yeah, it's pretty, pretty, pretty hard because you you gotta be careful on what you say. Yeah, of course toxic. Like I remember when I, you know, I I didn't know what was going on. Um and all I wanted, you know, was you know communication. There was a communication breakdown. And uh when, you know, and then people start thinking this and that. It's pretty hard to you know, work in. And um I I just recall, you know, I went, okay, well, this is I can't keep going on like this. And so I said, well, you know, I'll I'll I'll take her out to dinner and you know, give her flowers, all this kind of stuff, you know, kind of like, you know, and send a loving message and you know, she reciprocated i in some way. And uh but then, you know, went after dinner, even though the dinner was civil and everything else, you know, it just wasn't there. Okay, well that's we've had a good run. And and I remember going home and and um and I remember saying, you know, we've had a good run. You know, let's not get the lawyers involved, let's split everything 50-50. Yeah. And how did that convoy down? Well, let's just say that you went right at the start and then it changed. Well, you know, um it's pretty I can only say from my side, I can't say from their side, and from my side, I wanted everything to be done like that, get it over and done with. And in my book, I basically put eleven recommendations where the family caught when you when you're doing going through that battle, you can actually solve. It within three months. And but they because of the money ching ching that the lawyers and everyone else basically earn, they basically make sure that it becomes worse than it needs to be when it doesn't need to be. If you really wanted to s like we're adults, so if you really wanted to sort something out, you go into a room, you get whatever you want to bring, but you sort it out then and then it's over and done with. I agree. You know, it's can be easily fixed.

SPEAKER_02 44:30

But you know So at that looking back now, well, at that point in time, you know, the communication breakdown, you know what's going on, but now that fast forward today, do you know what was the breakdown? Do you know why she changed the way she did?

SPEAKER_01 44:44

Yeah, well, I've got my own uh understandings and everything else, and and you know, they would they would I reckon people would know uh looking from the outside in, they would know what went on uh more than I would. Well I don't know if you want to talk about was it c did she meet someone else or was it something like that or was it just Well it depends on the timings and and the timings are uh kind of like you know, like I said, I don't want to be saying something that is inaccurate. From my perspective, I put two and two together. Yep. And sometimes when, you know, when there's more than uh when there's you know, you got a couple and then other people enter their lives. I'm I'm picking up what you're putting in, yeah. Yeah, yeah. You basically, you know, uh, you know, uh it happens all the day. Yeah, things change, you know, and um so yeah. Alright.

SPEAKER_02 45:45

Um so you where so you you get back from dinner, you have that chat, um, you wanted to just communicate like adults, go about business, amicable, smoothly. Obviously it doesn't go that way.

SPEAKER_01 46:01

No.

SPEAKER_02 46:02

No, it doesn't. What uh what what were some of the hurdles you faced here in in this new chapter? When I say new chapter, this next chapter of the uh div divorce or split, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 46:12

Well see, I was I was told I was told uh they needed time.

SPEAKER_02 46:21

Is that a tactic now?

SPEAKER_01 46:24

Well you know, uh I can only say what I got told. And I got told that the person needed time. Now I was meeting other people in regards to associated to to you know the uh the social group or whatever um and not one of them told me what was going on. So I have more disappointment there. Um you know, and that cons that was consistent throughout this whole thing was there are people there that I don't know how they can look themselves in the mirror. And I'm not talking about my sp I'm not talking about I'm talking about other people that so-called friends, so-called friends that all of a sudden disappeared or basically, you know, I I I was actually quite disappointed in them. So um yeah. And uh so anyway, uh a situation that should have been resolved quite quickly took years.

SPEAKER_02 47:35

When she said I need to take time, what time frame we're looking at before I suppose proceedings started or before paperwork are finally.

SPEAKER_01 47:41

Oh see, I I uh see when I said look, let's split everything fifty-fifty, as I put the keys down on the kitchen table, um it was a couple of weeks after that then we implemented the fifty-fifty uh share.

SPEAKER_04 48:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:04

Right. And now she was sweet with that? She was the one that she was the one that created it. Okay. Yeah. Unless I've become a right hander. Um, you know, and uh it wasn't me. And so, as usual, like anything else, I just went along with it. And um and then I've got text messages from other people that said, Oh, well, you know, uh, they borrowed it off here. They borrowed what offset there? The schedule. Okay, oh, okay. Yeah. That's where they got the schedule for them was from from another person at the school. And I've got text messages of that. Um, and um which is nothing really big anyway, at the end of the day. And so we went, we basically had them equal share. Um yeah, for for uh nearly three years.

SPEAKER_02 48:54

So it for the first so well three years, uh it was you had sh fifty-fifty um custody, so somewhat smooth, I guess you could say. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like it was solidified. But um proceedings going background about it.

SPEAKER_01 49:12

Oh, there are there are, you know, um I I'd say there were uh what you expect when things go a little bit south. Yeah. In regards to uh different parties and how they behaved and all the rest of it.

SPEAKER_02 49:28

What uh I feel like you're limited you're being careful what to say, which is fine. But uh so I just want to make clear, so you've split up, but for the first three years you've got the kids 50-50, um, so that's that that's great, right? But there's obviously other stuff going on in the background. Is it is it to do with finances or property settlement, or can you say or no, it's it's not to do with that.

SPEAKER_01 49:51

It it it's more to do with um I brought them up in a certain way, the children. Uh they've got a different they've got different skills as though they're bringing up in a different way. So for instance, I was a very hands-on uh parent. Yep. And so I would keep them away from devices, yeah, for instance. So I would take them out to the local park, I'd teach them martial arts, street, all this kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 50:18

What what what year are we in now? What what year are we talking?

SPEAKER_01 50:21

Uh we're talking uh well, we're talking eighteen. 2018? Yeah, yep, sorry, sorry, carry on. And uh so I was trying to teach the children things that their peers wouldn't be taught. Like and so I would take them to church on a Sunday morning. Why? To teach them patience because you have to sit there and you have to you know, you can't move around or anything else, so they have to sit. I taught them patience and self-control. And I slowed things down because everything, when you really look at it today, everything's so fast. I said it just just teaches you these skills. And then afterwards we go to McDonald's and have an ice cream or something like that, we go to the park. We did a lot of travelling, we go to Stradbroke Island, go for hikes, all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_04 51:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:17

Um so they they you know, it was never give you an iPad and you can play with it. No. It was more everything was involved, boxing. I'd bring in equipment so the kids can box, jump, all that kind of stuff. I got them into the exercising and and everything else, and to get their confidence, you know, to make sure that hey, you're confident and you can protect yourself. That was a very important thing.

SPEAKER_02 51:42

So um Correct me if I'm wrong, she's sort of changing their their upbringing or their way, their lifestyle.

SPEAKER_01 51:50

Well, she's like I said, chalk and cheese. Yeah, okay. So she would be more traditional in in the sense of what the average parent out there does, which is more the electronics, more the technology. Kind of that easy fix to give the children away. I I wouldn't say it's an easy fix. I I I I I I uh it's just that she is more proficient in technology than I would be. So we're just basically working on so the the kids are actually well balanced when you think of it again, because the intellect through the technology and all the rest of it, I can't do. They've got the going to the church, learning s patience, learning self-control, all that kind of stuff, I'm teaching them. So the kids, in essence, uh get both sides. Okay. That's how I see it as.

SPEAKER_02 52:40

And then what happens at the three-year market? You mentioned it was shared 50-50 for three years, obviously something happens. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:48

Well, what happened was that I got charged. Oh no. Yeah. So um the kids and I were were basically uh you couldn't have got a stronger relationship. It was they'd run to me every time when I picked them up from school. Every time. And not walk. And you just, you know, and everyone could see that. And you know, you I had a great photo at the school, all this kind of stuff, blah blah blah. And um things were changing, everything was changing. And uh my partner at the time, she was talking to the kids as well, right? When you have your phone calls, you know, just a quick twenty seconds or whatever it is. And we were all gonna meet on the following Wednesday.

SPEAKER_02 53:40

When you say your partner at the time, so you're seeing someone again.

SPEAKER_01 53:42

Yeah, I was seeing it, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. And um so we were gonna meet for State of Origin. Yep. The first State of Origin game in 21. And uh because based on the schedule. So I drop them off on a certain day. The next time I see them is this particular day. And so we had that all planned up. Um, but later that day after I dropped them off, where they're skipping into the hallway and waving goodbye to me, everyone's happy. Uh I go back home and continue working, and then I get a knock at the door, and there's two plainclosed detectives. And so, you know, I'm going, well, what's going on here? Right. And um, so anyway, so I let them in and uh basically I said, Look, I've got this, you know, email I need to send off. And uh so let me do that because I'd worked this is interstate, so I need to send that email. And then once once they basically got down, I, you know, rang the lawyer and I said, Well, you know, they just want me to come down to the the station.

SPEAKER_03 54:54

The old trick.

SPEAKER_01 54:54

I I had well I actually had no problem going down to the station. And uh but I needed someone to be there. Yeah. Like I can't go by myself. And they said they they won't be coming. And so I said, Oh As in the person you called to Yeah, they wouldn't want to come because I think, you know, you know, uh people think one way and and you know, another thinks another service thinks another, you know, and and I just went, Well, you've got nothing to hide, you just go down, right? Anyway, but because that happened, uh they basically uh said something in regards to a certain incident. Um and uh I recall it and I go, Oh, yeah, I'm not too worried about that, because that was you know three years ago. Three years earlier, right? And there was already a DVO on me at that time. Yep. So I was already under the DVO of that particular incident, right? Alleged incident. And so it didn't worry me at all. And then when I got to the watch house, and they gave me hot pizza and I drink.

SPEAKER_02 56:02

So is this a breach? Is that what they're trying to get you on? No. No. And um Are you able to say what I was for?

SPEAKER_01 56:09

Well the it was the September situation was uh an alleged assault. September 2018? Yes, yep, yep. Yeah. And the kids were there. They saw everything. And I wanted the kids interviewed on that night because they're the only ones, you know. The witnesses, yeah, yeah. Right? And what no, they didn't want to interview the kids. You know, my kid was basically saying certain things, or you know, because they could see the marks on me. They go, Are you okay, Dad? All the rest of that, blah, blah, blah. The cop has never wanted to interview the children. Yet they put the children on the DVO. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 56:54

But they didn't stop you having custody.

SPEAKER_01 56:56

It didn't stop me having custody. But what I'm saying is is that um they didn't need to do that. You know, if you want to interview the kids, interview the kids. You know, they're right there. They can speak for themselves. They can speak for themselves. All right. But they didn't want to do that. And, you know, it's these type of things that you're going, why aren't you just asking the question? Yeah, because the m misunderstandings can be blown out of smithereens when it's you know, when it's not dealt with at that very time.

SPEAKER_02 57:29

I'll pause you there real quick. I have um surprisingly, I have a lot of support through cops. They talk to me, some have left the job because of dealing with the whole DV. They understand that we're going to jobs and we know we're about to stuff up this person's life, but we're we're bounded by a legislation, there's not much we can do. And um I had a a cop from another state call me, he just said, mate, like you don't understand how much backing you have down here. They won't tell you online, um, but you know, they love the space that you're doing because they're you know, they're sick of dealing with it too. This certain individual happened to him. But I had one cop tell me, and I'm trying to get him on, but he's busy, and he can come he will come on and say because he's not in. He said, as QPS officers, we are trained that when we arrive on scene, that even if we believe the male is the victim, we are trained to take him away as the perpetrator.

SPEAKER_06 58:20

Yeah, well that's exactly.

SPEAKER_02 58:21

And I said, mate, we can he goes, Yeah, yeah, he's just busy. I said, like, can you come on, identify your face? He's like, Yep, yeah, I'll do it. So crazy. Yeah. The lady that's coming on from DV Connect, who used to work at DV Connect for some time, it's in their training training manual, their policies, that if a male calls up claiming to be the victim, you are to I won't say coerce, you are to what's another word for coerce, uh, convince that they are the perpetrator. It's in their training manual.

SPEAKER_06 58:53

Yeah. It's like, uh what?

SPEAKER_01 58:55

Well see, the thing is, the history is is that I was the first that went to the coppers. I was the first to I've heard this. If you I've heard this story a lot. And when I went and saw these people, and I've got the evidence to back it up, when I went and saw their people, they didn't do anything. Yet I go over, and not only do they come out of the woodwork, they then basically put in something that's ridiculous by putting the kids on when there was no situation, it was a mum and dad situ disagreement, all the rest of it. One's completely I've got scratches all over me minor injuries, yet I get done on that. Yet when I had evidence of other stuff, they didn't have the courtesy of even writing up a report. I know that I know that situation. You know what I mean? And that's why I mean you go and do your due diligence and you look at the history and the timings, you go, well, why didn't that person do whatever they needed to have done? They've just made it worse for, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:08

So I it just showed to me, well, it was perceived, I I perceived it as one rule for one and one rule for another.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:20

Yeah, I agree. Um, you know, the whole DV space, it it it's it needs change. And um, you know, I I'm guilty. Um I've had two put on me, beat one, just had another one put on me shortly, but I'm guilty in the past before I end up going through this chapter. If someone said, Oh, that guy's got a DV on him, I'll I wouldn't bash it. I'm the first one to put my hand on, I'm guilty of doing that.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:41

Now that I've been through it, I'm like, well, well, this is see the DV space, see the thing is is that I'd never heard of domestic violence. The only one I can recall from domestic violence in the movies was Once We're Warriors. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:57

Which is serious.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:58

That's serious domestic violence, right? And a lot of it's when you look at the studies, and this is where I get into trouble because I tell the truths. When you look at the studies, the main reason for DV is either financial pressures or alcoholism or or basically those those are the main two. Those and and basically, so if someone's basically and when you look at the once warriors situation, they were poor, the guy lost his job. Poverty, yeah. You know, and and they didn't so they didn't have much money and they were drinking a lot of alcohol. I hardly drink, and we had money. Yeah. You know, so and you even look at the ages of the statistics, um, I was 42, you know, uh in regards to certain different laws where the average is 32. But people don't want to dig. See, and that's what I do, I dig. And they don't want to dig because the unfortunate truth comes out. And with DV, when when I got charged with it, I I I started researching DV. And everyone that I've come across in all the years, and I've asked a simple question whenever they're talking about DV or anything else like that, who's the first person that created the first DV shelter? None of them say a word. They do not know. Yet they're supposedly are trained on DV, and they can't even do the basic 101. So then people like me are seen as a threat to the system because I do know who the first person is in England, and I do know the history, and I do know I do know what she says, but it doesn't fit the narrative. See? I've seen that one, that clip, yeah, yeah. You know, and when you get people that can back up what they say, you are an enemy, and then the other enemies connect because the narratives are all connected, and then you become an enemy of the enemy, and uh that's how a lot of them who don't like each other just gang up because they can't confront you one-on-one.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:19

Do you follow the the Tin Man in the UK? Yes. I've spoken to him, he's gonna come on at some point. Oh, that's excellent. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um so what's crazy is my um I might as well say it now because this will come out in two weeks. Um my partner's gonna announce it this week, but her charity's finally r registered, so she's got an ACNC, Men's Emotions Matter movement, and um she wants to be the first to do a DV shelter for men in Australia because there seems to be a lot of DV shelters for women, but there doesn't seem to be one for men. But um by the time this episode comes out that that will already be out.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:50

But um They used to have one, but I think it shut down. Oh really? Yeah. I didn't know that. Yeah. I think it was in Victoria. Yeah, okay. Yeah, so but the the but the whole thing is is that with the DV, it's such a massive industry.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:03

I agree. And and I believe it's sorry, Cut you. I I had a mate a Pauline Hanson said too, and I had a I had an ex-cop mate. Uh sorry, he's sort of cop ex-army. He told me, mate, don't talk about the DV on your podcast because it's a big cash cow, they'll they'll come for you. And I thought it is. They've already come. They're probably coming in. I I know there's genuine DV out there. We all know that. But in my opinion, there's more fake DV out there than there is genuine. And when I say fake because people are using it as a tool or tactic to gain advantage, whether it be in family court or financial gain or touch on this.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:39

This book which will get me into trouble one way or another. Yeah, you know, this book basically in here, and if have a look at the back part, back page. And you can see basically you need a host.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:00

So I'll I'll read the uh back of the book for the viewers at home listening. So a a lethal phobia, a fear or dislike of the truth. Most people believe the systems around them exist to protect, to serve, to do deliver justice. Most never question what they are told. But what if that belief is the illusion? When one man began to look beneath the surface, he discovered something far more unsettling than chaos or incompetence. A system that works exactly as intended. Not broken, precise. A machine designed to feed on the vulnerable, safeguard the institutions, and maintained by those who profit most from its design. What follows is a journey through betrayal, sacrifice, and quiet endurance. From courtroom shenanigans to the emotional toll of defending one's children against institutional indifference. This is a story of survival within a structure that benefits the powerful while consuming the vulnerable. It is lived. Experience of confronting a lethal phobia, the fear of rejection of truth in a world that whispers you can't handle the truth. And there's a diagram in the back here. It says, attack the high income earner father. And there's a gentleman sitting here on a big cache of money, and then there's some arrows pointing to pharmaceutical industry, medical industry, domestic violence industry, counsellors, services that benefit, supervised service operators, family court services, legal fraternity, and the police force. That's a very good thing. They all benefit. Yeah, I I agree.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:33

That's the that's that's the alethophobia. See, when and see when you do your when you do your um due diligence on the system and the funding, and that's in that book, and you look at the rates of DV deaths per 100,000, um, there was trajectory that was going down. Now the last couple of years, where there's just been a massive uh amount of money being directed towards it, it's actually got worse. So what's going on? Like, hang on, in the early 2000s, when the money given towards DV was state funded, state funded, it didn't start hitting until I think four or five years. Actually, I'll I'll basically pick it up so I'm not wrong. But the actual what it's basically happening right now is that, and I'll show you here because it's in this book, have a look at the years, and you look at the funding, and then you look at the different social events.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:48

Gillard's name in there.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:50

Yeah, yeah. It's a first but first word, I think Gillard. Yeah, so if you look across and you swing across, rate per thousand, you you will see that the more money that they're funding the D V industry, the more female deaths are actually occurring. Crazy. DV's not going down, it's going up. And why is that? And so in that book I basically explain the reasons why it's going up. And and and but the problem is is that instead of fixing the problem, they call it a broken system. But they kind of like know what needs to be fixed, but because of self-preservation, institutional preservation, they basically close turn a blind eye, correct, make sure make sure it's uh divisive, the environment's divisive, and so then they're actually feeding the DV industry, which then feeds every other industry because people are going nuts, because it makes no sense.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:54

So for the viewers at home, I'm looking at the book, and correct me if I'm wrong here, Len. So 2000 to 2006 is all state funding.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:00

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:01

Then from 2010 onwards, so 2010-2011, Gillard was the PM, the Minister of Social Services was Jenny Macklin, and there was funding of 1.8 million. Yep. And I won't go through the years, but that was 2010 to 2011. We're now 2023 to 2024, uh 643 million,900,000 with Albenizia's PM and the Minister of Social Services is Amanda Risworth. And I won't go through everything, but that's what that's how much we've gone up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:33

So that's the kind of stuff that's probably going to get people knocking at my door. Um because that's the truth. That's the unconfronting truth. And see, where I get the see, the thing is that the Australian criminality statistics, that that's raw data, right? It's not touched. Well, I think it isn't. What then happens is that the other side, which I'm talking about, the anti-mails and all the rest of it, get that data and then they strip, probably strip away stuff or they tweak it. I'm an analyst. I used to have to write submissions where I s where a negative situation had to become a positive. I know that. All right? And so that's what they do. So then and then when you go through the algorithms, it has been told in the algorithms itself that only certain data is selected when they're providing an answer to a question relating to DV. So a bit like how uh Twitter used to be more left-oriented, and then Musk came in and went to X, and that's more right orientated, certain material is eliminated from the common researcher. And it's only if you know then you go, well, no, that's wrong, and you basically are having an argument with AI because you know that you've you know what you know, and and then eventually it concedes and goes, Yes, you are right. It's because of this ideology and everything else, and the certain algorithms that people cannot get access to certain studies unless they have known pre uh before. It's designed that way.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:12

Well, uh before we keep digging on the book, I thought I try to finish your timeline. So you've gone down the police station. Um and is that we're up to? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:22

I went down to the police station and we're going, oh god, you know, I love cop shows. I love cop shows and we're not and just to go a little bit back, I was brought up um I used to read these books called The Three Investigators, and they're a bit like the Hardy Boys. Uh and I can't remember the female side, but there's a female side thing. But the three investigators, they basically always solve crimes. And as a young kid at primary school, I used to read that forever. And um so and because I liked cop shows ever since I was young, yeah, they're always the good guys. Um I went, oh well, I'm just gonna go down to the the watch house, you know, whippity-doo, right? And so I remember going in and I saw the pizza in the drink, and I went, oh well, that's obviously to take my DNA. Well, I'm hungry, so I'm gonna do it. I've got nothing to hide. You just go, oh, cool, hot pizza. Yeah. It's like you're just oh yeah, it's just a different place. And it's a watch house. But that's just me. And um, so anyway, so I'm going in there and I'm eating and all the rest. And then they then I basically got presented before these there was a bunch of them. I can still picture it now. It's like no, it was like two coppers were in the front, and then there was a whole line. Like there was there's there was just not three or four people, there was more than, you know. And they go, Oh, so and so, and I'm going, and and uh you have been charged with strangulation. And I went, strangulation? Like where where the F did this come from? Do you know what I mean? So which freaking date did this occur on? Right? And so they give me a date, which is freaking nine months before the other one, when we're still going out and everything else. And I was just I was just like, you know, you you just you just go, what what the hell? And then they said the next one, which was oh, you you know, you're charged with the salt. And I went, oh, yeah, I know that date. You know, I got you know, that was the one I was talking about, how they added the thing that that was the original DVO. The original DVO was put on for that, not this other one that was so-called nine months earlier or whatever it was. Do you know what I mean? So so that was the that was the big shock was that one.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:53

Um then because that happened the because you you had shared 50-50 up until then. Three years. And then obviously this plays a part, and then uh well, what what happens here? You can't see the kids or the toilet changes.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:07

What what happened then was um I remember them saying the date and I'm going, nothing makes any sense. Do you know what I mean? And you're trying to solve something, and you go, well, you know, people would go, well, why are you trying to solve it? You know, and you go, well, because uh you know, we all know that the justice system, you know, the legal system, justice system, whatever is not, you know, right. It's not a justice system, it's a legal system. So you're actually guilty before you're freaking innocent. You know, where's the due process? Due process seems to have disappeared. Um you know, the moment you get a a TPO or an ABO on you, or DVO on you, people already judged you. Oh, yeah. You know, and and and you're going, you know, and that's the best, the best thing, some of the best things that come out of that is you see who the real people that support you are. Yeah. And and and it brings a smile to your face because you kind of like knew that initially anyway. Yeah. But there's also disappointment about other ones, but yeah, it is what it is. But yeah, so that that was the and I never forget that the the the guy, they could see my reaction to that first one, which was like, like, where what where'd this come from? Right? The second one was like, you know, just had to go through the motions, yeah. Yeah, because I know I never did anything. So that was the, you know, and I remember telling my family, and they were going, What? Do you know? It was just like, where's this come from? Because we had been keeping up to date for the last three, four years nearly. And then all of a sudden this comes out of the blue. And then if you look at the law, and once again, that's in this book, that's gonna get me into heaps of trouble.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:54

When you look at the law, I had no chance. I had no chance because uh based on the law itself, and was brought in for a good reason. You've got to remember. This law was brought in for a good reason. It was after the task force had done s uh done their job uh because of Bate and Clay. 2012.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:23

What was that about again?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:23

I remember the Well, he murdered his wife because he was having an affair. And he didn't want, you know, uh and all the rest of it. He was he there was a third party involved, and he basically went on the screen and basically said, I never did anything, and it was like, yeah, well, then you find out he was having an affair and all the rest of it. And so, you know, um I won't go too much into motives and everything else, um, but in regards to the actual law, and that's why I want people, that was one of the main reasons why I wrote this book. Yeah, people need to be aware of this law because I've survived it uh through, you know, great support and everything else, um, but the average Joe won't. You can be convicted with no injuries, no witnesses, no doctor's report, and you can be convicted. And it's seven years in prison. Like you and it because it's in a domestic relationship. So you can basically have a disagreement with the person that you you're going out with. This is how scary it is. It's actually quite scary. You can actually have based on the law, which is usually literally taken literally taken, you can basically have a relationship with another spouse. You might have a disagreement, you come home, and all of a sudden the police knock at your door and go, uh, we're gonna charge you for this. No evidence is needed. This is generally speaking, no evidence is needed. All right? No doctor's report is needed, no injury is needed. And even if there are marks, as per the law, even doesn't prove whether or not it is. So and then you look at the conviction rate, it's in the high 90s.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:39

Well that um that is scary. I don't know if you that message that I sent before we started, I just said to my to that person, I said, Oh, um, I'm about to do a podcast, I'll call you later. That person's facing strangulation charges. They're gone. Well, we'll speak offline afterward, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:54

Well, I know I I see I was interested in in the McGuire case, right? Josh is a bit some Owen. Yep. Um, and all the rest of it, and I felt for him because I went, you read the law, and plus I don't know anyone, plus I've peeved off people because I've been mouthing off about the DV industry, so there's a lot of enemies on my side. Um and so I've been watching that, I've been watching that case, and because of what I know, and this is court of appeal decisions, not just a normal decision, this is court of appeal, and they've basically eliminated any ambiguity. So, yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy. No witnesses, so it's a one-on-one. This is the alleged situation. You can have a one-on-one, no witnesses, no doctors. Uh, you can you can have Mark's yes or no, and the judges based on the court of appeal will still uh convict you.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:05

But you didn't know that at the time.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:06

No, I didn't know that at the time. So here we are spending hundreds of thousands of dollars going to a situation where I had no chance really at all, because Marx can be invincible.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:21

Invisible.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:22

Invisible. Oh, that's pretty amazing. I'm invisible now, but someone did it to me.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:29

That's and but this is law. Yeah, and this is the scary part. And like I said, because I've been outspoken on DV, you know, uh I I believe I believe I was targeted. No doubt.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:48

No doubt. So how did this play out with your um court court proceedings? Uh like obviously Family Courtney. Well, see the family.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:57

Family court, yeah, that they would have brought it up, I assume. Oh, of course, you know, everyone's kind of like, you know. Don't don't worry about, you know, who the person was that brought up the children and, you know, was the protector and, you know, made sure that any bullies at school got done for and all that kind of stuff. Don't worry about that. No, we'll just go on the certain narrative that uh, you know, this and that. No one wanted to know, they all were judges from afar. But if you go in and you check for yourself, you do your due diligence, you know, it it's confronting. And um so what actually happened was that the the legal system was they had their hands tied. The police had their hands tied. Uh, you know, given the given this uh the environment out there, the social environment out there, the the you know, the money being poured, the advertisements, everything else like that. And you you you basically um it's like a thousand people on one. And yet we get told, oh, we we shouldn't be bullying people You know, until you know this and that. And that's where I remember forever through my life I got told perception is reality. And I said, no, it's not. Perception is a lazy way of you basically with your prejudice and your bias, and you you see someone like, say, for instance, I see, you know, people see people with tattoos or something. Oh, yeah, they're rough, tough, all the rest of it. Some of the kindest people have looked that way, as opposed to some of the cleanest people are dirty inside, like they're dirty. But but because they're popular and all the rest of it, everyone just goes along with the the game. And um so lost track of where I'm going here. Um perception is reality. When a person walks through a door, straight away they will have a perception of that person without even knowing anything about them. They will like them or dislike them or don't care or whatever. They've already formed that basis. And that's where people go off is I'm too lazy to know this person, so I'm just gonna basically stereotype them or basically uh say that's that's what they are. And that's because of all the upbringings, all the way that's been taught to them by other people, all the rest of it. Yeah, and so I I promoted this this formula, this IP formula, where I say, if you really want to know a situation uh in a better way than perception is reality, use perception as your base. There's your base. Now add the context, historical, current, behavioral, all the rest. Add that context in. Alright? Now you're starting to understand what this person is or the situation is. When you've done that, then add in QI Bono. And QI Bono is a legal term, which basically says who benefits. Then you basically put the QI Bono narrative or whatever into it. Then you can see what is more likely a true story as opposed to the easy, oh yeah, perception is reality. Because that gives you a more objective viewpoint when you take in perception, context, and Qi Bono than it is if you just go perception. Yeah. And that's where I've outlined in the book, you know. But put the context in. If you want to get involved and you want to know the situation, don't go bullying other people just because they've got these things on them. You know, do your do D. But they don't want to. Because if someone's got a DVO on them, if you support this individual that's got a DVO on them, you are then socially isolated. There is a massive social risk. Oh, you support thuggery and all this kind of stuff. But if you go and play Switzerland, or you go and say, well, you know, that person's a thug or whatever, socially acceptable. Come to us. Do you know what I mean? But if you basically go, no, I don't know the situation, I'm not gonna comment on it. You know, I'll I'll go and ask them myself. You're more likely to be more respected in my eyes, then I let's just go along with the the flow here and believe it believe one side. And and that's the whole thing. It's there's always more than one side to it, and I've never had a problem with anyone if they've come from a different side, because I've always believed I'm actually quite fair, and that was illustrated when even though I'd looked after the kids in their early years, and even though this and that, I said, we've had a good run that's split everything 50-50.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:22

Because it's fair. Yeah. You know.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:25

So how how many years in uh family court did you do?

SPEAKER_01 1:26:29

Well, one this is another one that alethophobia came up. No one wanted to recognise that I was the first one that put the first submission in because I was getting tired of life not moving on. Yeah. And um, you know, once again, you know, no one really cared about that. You know, I'm trying to move on as soon as possible, and and I've I've got the evidence, but the narrative is against the evidence. The emotions are against the evidence. Emotions always win.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:03

So six years, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_01 1:27:04

Well, that that was six years. Yeah, well, well, I I did it in nineteen. Yeah, wrapped down. And we didn't finish until twenty-four. Yeah, wow. Right. Let's split everything 50-50, yeah, you know, back in 18. The other side. Which is yeah, draining. You know, I lasted three years, I was broken. But see, the thing is is that I don't have a uh like and and I've got it uh people look at me weirdly in the in a certain way. But the system to me is the issue. And and because if they can't figure out what's going on, then they shouldn't be in the roles that they're in. You know. Um because to me, even in hindsight, after writing the book Okay. But but then when you do an overview. Which I do a lot of the times, if they used common sense and all the rest of it, then these people don't get their money. Common sense doesn't prevail though through the 26th. No, because what what happens is that, say for instance, you get accused, right, and you haven't done anything, you get accused. Mentally you're going WTF, right? So what do you do? You either eat more, drink more, or take pills. So the pharmaceutical industry come like benefits. The medical industry benefits, this is all financially. Yeah, I don't know what's going on, doc. I better go see a counselor. They benefit. Um do you know what I mean? Yeah, they all benefit from your misery.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:55

I've said this scenario before, and it's you know it's a bit of a broad scenario, but I just said imagine uh uh as of today, moving forward, if someone put someone put a TV on me, okay, no worries, I'm not gonna go to court, I'm not gonna fight it. Um if if everyone just thought, no worries, I'm not gonna play this game anymore. Well, who's rocking up to court? Yeah, no one's rocking up to court to fight anything, courts are quiet, and the same as family court, like uh this is just a scenario, you know. Imagine no one rocked up to fight for the kids or five of the probably sitting on the you know, court is just gonna be dead quiet. That means, you know, judges aren't getting paid, bro.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:33

Yeah, but so sorry, so you're a judge right. The only problem with that theory is that people are selfish and they only worry about themselves. And that that's why it will never work. The other thing is that even if you do solve it, and you look at the Australian criminality statistics over the years, assault was one of the biggest. I think Australia had the worst in the early 2000s, something like that. And so what actually happened was that the police force did a magnificent job and they reduced the assaults to be quite low. Problem. What are they going to do now for a role? You have to actually be able to do a role, so you need to be paid. So what did they do? They implemented speed cameras to get the revenue flow in, right? So with the DV industry, where it was forever state funded and you and you had a certain amount and then it was reduced over time, with millions invested, yes, um, basically you've got to keep those numbers up in order for the money to go through. It's a bit like councils, they have a certain bucket of funds. If they don't you you see that movie falling down. No. Falling down with Michael Douglas. And he goes, uh, what's what's wrong with the road? You know, I was walking here before and there was nothing wrong with the road. Now they're fixing the road, right? And he goes, Oh, I'll get you something to fix, and so you know, he blows it up. Because they need that funding. And I I've known people that have worked in council, and if you don't use the funding, it goes. It goes to someone else. And and and and DIS as well. And and and the role. So your job or whatever is then you become expendable. That's that's that's that's the thing. And so with and so when I was walking through the forest the other day, and I was thinking, and I was like, eh, you know, you you gotta keep on recording the DV, right? And you'll implement certain things like coercive control and all that kind of stuff, right? And you will save a certain portion of people, right? That, you know, and remember, DV's tragic. You save them. But the problem is by broadening those laws, making it wider, you're actually capturing a more bigger audience that you can charge who don't deserve to be charged. And and really people don't care at the end of the day. And it's quite sick because really, you know, everyone kind of like knows what DV is. It's not well well, that's what I mean. You know, you you treat your partner as best as you can, you don't hurt them, you don't do this, you know, you know, it's pretty basic. But now you can have a disagreement in a text, and then you're charged. And then you're labeled. Yeah, I know. It's do you know how ridiculous it is? And they know they can fix it, but they benefit from it. Yeah, I know. The legal fraternity benefit from it. They need to broaden it. And going back to that other situation with the assault coming down and implementing speed cameras, if you and w it's economically better if people, vulnerable people, get done over. Economically better. Because if you were to fix up the broken system, which I believe it isn't, it's a damaged system that can be fixed, if you actually fix that up, there's a ray raft of unemployment and you create create a recession. That's what it is. And because all of a sudden, you don't need a lot of these services or as many as you had to because people aren't going silly or needing help, because it's like, oh yeah, that makes logical sense. So that's what they do, they they actually feed, and that's what I mean. The broadening of the laws, yes, saves this little portion, but it captures a wider audience that people were going, oh, is that DV or isn't that DV? Yeah. It's quite sad.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:00

Yeah, it is. What it blows my mind how that there's people in prison right now for replying to a text message. Because I've, you know, obviously they've DVs put put on them, the first thing to do is they'll message, hey, what are you up to? And I replied, nothing, breach. And the next thing you know, and I was just thinking, it just blows my mind.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:19

So so you you step back and you go, okay, say for instance, that's To me. That that's entrapment.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:25

That's entrapment. It's should be charged. Entrapment is basically even when you're recording people without their their knowledge that Queensland allows. So so if but what I'm saying is again, it emphasizes that point. You put the numbers there, they record the numbers, that means more funding. But if they wanted to solve it, they wanted to solve DV, they've got to actually make it more common sense, the laws, and adults act like adults instead of little kids. And that comes down to accountability. And to me, if you're an adult and you want to get into a relationship, well, choose wiser. You know, and they'll go, Oh, you're blaming it on the victims. No, I'm not. You're an adult. Choose your person that you want to be with more better. You know, and that's the hard truth.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:21

And that's the hard way we learn, I I guess.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:24

And and until people are kind of going, oh, you know, you know, say for instance there's a person here that's got a, you know, red flags and everything, well, they're showing the red flags, move away, going to someone else. Yeah. You know, there's billions of people on this earth, you know, you know, and but the unfortunate thing is, you know, you're bringing in self-confidence, you're bringing anxiety, you're bringing in all that stuff. But at the end of the day, if you got a good group around you, and if you're a mature adult, you should be able to choose wiser your partner. And when you, you know, and that's my fault in my situation, was that lack of self-confidence, um, you know, trying to do the right thing, all the rest of it. I was I was my biggest enemy. You know, no one put a gun to my head and said, you've got to marry this person or you need to go. It was me making that decision. And that means that I need I had to take the consequences of making that decision. Not, I yeah, but they shouldn't have done that and they shouldn't have done that. Well, hang on. The system allowed a lot of that to happen through narratives instead of you know doing a thorough job. I that's where, you know, I my emphasis in this book has always been it's a system I'm attacking, and and you know, I know everyone will say it's a broken system. No, it's not a broken system. You want s if you want to solve something, you'll figure out a way to solve it. But the problem is, is that the people with the money make the final decisions. And like going to the coppers that you said, you know, there's a lot there's a lot of good coppers. Yeah. No doubt. But they can only do so much. Because they don't want to lose their job. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? If they do not follow the guidelines from the above, then they're risking their job. Yeah. You know, and and it's like, well, their hands are tied. And you'll wonder why. You know, a person I know has told me they are leaving in droves. Yeah, for that's it. And all the mainstream media keeps telling you is that they're being recruited.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:37

A lot of credit coming from overseas. Like uh in New Zealand. I work at the hospital, UK.

unknown 1:37:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:43

I work at the hospital, and uh South Australia even have their own ad, South Australia Commissioner, police commissioner, they've got a ad where they're it's literally a legit ad saying we're recruiting from overseas, you'll get a certain countries obviously, but you know, you you get a visa, you get this, you get that, because I ran into on I was working at the hospital Christmas Day, you know, so I'm on double time and a half, etc. I bump into a mate I served with in Afghan, he's a QPS officer, and we're having a chat, and uh obviously you know you have a lot of paramedics and police officers that bring patients in, etc. And I said, Oh well, what's uh rate are you on today? He goes, flat rate. I said, What do you mean? So as a QPS officer, 365 days a year, doesn't matter if you're public holiday, you're on a flat rate. Now, if you go over time, for example, on Christmas Day, if you went overtime, he would be on quadruple. But he said to me, I can guarantee you I'm not gonna get overtime today. So imagine we can Christmas no wonder they can't hold anyone. Imagine Christmas Day, flat rate. Like, where's the incentives? Yeah, probably the busiest day of the year.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:39

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:40

See, I I I I I remember uh, you know, I was I was brought up watching there's this uh American show called Chips with Eric Estrada and Larry Wilcox and and then you know I I really admired the police. I really did. I really, really did. And I know it would be an extremely hard it'd be the last job I'd ever want to do because you cannot win. You know, if you go what you go down one path, you're gonna get hammered by the legal fraternity. If you go down another path, you you know your morals are questioned. You go down another path, you've got your colleagues having a go at you. I I really feel for them because it's a no-win situation, and then you get idiots that basically call them derogatory names. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So they can't win, and and you wonder why so many commit suicide.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:35

Right? I heard one QBS officer tell me that uh they have their station had a quota. Sorry, uh a female had come in to put a deer on someone, and this female police officer turned away. Said, no, there's no evidence. And she got in trouble by her OIC and said, Why didn't you put one on on on him? And um she said, Well, I don't, you know, I don't know what exactly what she said, but she said there's just no evidence to put one on him. And the OIC said, No, put one, I've got a quota to meet.

SPEAKER_06 1:40:08

That's right. Oh my gosh. So that's true.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:10

Yeah. And so the way she told me is you you can imagine, you know, we'll make it up Southport police station being Lee Broadbridge. This this was how it was playing to me. Every OIC of this station is looking for promotion. So when it's promotion time, well, my police station put 5,000 DVOs. Well, hold on a sec. My police station put seven thousand, you know, everyone's looking for that promotion.

SPEAKER_06 1:40:32

It's just a numbers game.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:34

I'm just thinking, man, like that is it's sick.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:36

It is people's laughs. Absolutely sick. It is and they laugh when they go home and they're having beers and everything else, laughing at someone's misfortune.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:45

That's what I mean. I couldn't as and I know that this because some have messaged me and they've they've left because of this. I just morally I couldn't do it. I'm like, good on you. And is that air consumption yourself? And then um, you know, I just think, man, imagine like how do you see like how does Albanese sleep in a butt how do you know knowing some of these officers are uh sleeping on it, knowing that they've gone and just turned someone's life upside down like that, you know? Um well it's pretty simple. Well, I couldn't, but I mean No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:12

The the the the kind, compassionate, um, empathetic individual can't, the human human person can't, but they're just some crazy evil people that that you know probably they got neglected or at w at some child age or got beaten up, you know, and they had some issues here and there, um that that that just readily can do it, and you go, how can you do that?

SPEAKER_02 1:41:37

I feel like it's probably going on spiritually here. I feel like the universe repaids it somehow. So let's just say these officers or these mums that are doing XYZ now, at a later on in life, it comes back to them, and let's just say one of these police officers put a TV on for no reason. When later on in life they might have kids, that scenario is gonna happen to their child, and they're gonna sit, yeah. You know, it's calm, it's karma universe, like what uh you know, and they think, oh Jesus, like you know, you're laughing back then, but now this same pain that you've caused is happening to your son and now you're a grandparent thing, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:10

Well, people ask me when they when they saw the evidence, they said, why did you never go down that path of charging and it's pretty simple to me. You know, it's we're not in a relationship, there's no point destroying a person for what? Do you know what I mean? Like I got attacked and all the rest of that kind of stuff, and I've got the evidence, but I never went down that track of charging someone. You can't like just go let bygones be bygones, you know. Um I've got the evidence I could easily go and get people charged. Why? Like who does that benefit? And the biggest risk I had, and this is where I don't have you heard of King Solomon? I have. King Solomon, and and there's a tale of the parent and the child, the two child the two the two parents, uh the two women and the child, and they're basically both fighting over the child saying it's theirs. And King Solomon basically said, I'm gonna cut this baby in half and you can have one half and you can have the other, because you're both squabbling about one party said no.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:43

The other side can win. Because you never wanted you never wanted that to happen. And so when people say that you've lost access to your children, they do not understand what you had to do because straight away you get an uh a picture or uh a label gets put on you, or he has he doesn't see his kids.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:07

They don't know the true story that if I had attacked in regards to a legal position, the kids would go to foster care. And we know what happens in foster care sometimes, bad things. And so you had to basically do what you needed to do. Take the hit to make sure that strangers don't look after them because you don't know what these strangers will do. And you see you see examples of that. And and I can look in the mirror and go, hey, you know, even though I've got all the evidence in the world, I'll never do that because at least they've got one site that they're used to. Yeah. And so you just carry on with life and you and you're basically you're taking that hit and it hits daily, but you know that you're done the right thing but not going down a certain path, even though it rips you rips you apart.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:15

Now that is a loving parent.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:20

I feel your pain and frustration. I've got exactly what the judge said about me tattooed on my hands. A bit hard to read because it's get too emotional. Um, but uh it's just about the sacrifice for my daughter, and um, you know, I had to let as three years I was fighting for her to keep in the country came to a point where I had to um I I had to make that sacrifice and let her go because I was broken, but at the same time I didn't want to keep dragging her through it for years. And um, you know, crazy enough, two years uh she's been gone two years now, but I got contact yesterday. When I say contact her, um my ex had reached out to my father and sent some photos and videos. So um yesterday was a emotional day, but you know, I thought serving my country was sacrificed, but what a joke that was. But um, you know, um letting my daughter go knowing that you know people from the outside or haven't been what been in our shoes will just they don't know the contacts, they go, Oh, he he quit or he doesn't care, so they they got no idea, but you know, um see the the the first line that came across the prosecutors that I was a violent man.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:33

That was the first thing he said. I I couldn't I I didn't do well in league because I just couldn't inflict damage on another human. Yeah. Like, you know, and I I love the game, but you have to have some dirtiness in you to exceed. I never had that. I've never hurt anyone in my life. Yet they basically straight away the first line was, oh, he's a violent man. Where's your evidence, man? Yeah, try it. You know, and and um it's just you know, I've never been in a fight, the boys walked away because I saw a fight as you either win and you get done for assault, or you lose and you're in hospital. And and that's the same thing, like you know, um as a sport itself, I never I could I I had the the intellect, I just didn't have the dedication that, you know, I see a person there, yeah, I'm gonna injure them. You know, and um that was just you know sometimes I wish I I I represented myself. Because, you know, you got the and I remember self-representing and going back to that fault thing where I said, Look supervised vision had supervised visits, it went for a couple of years. And so the option was either I think there was an option of taking the kids on the weekend or something like that, every second weekend or something like that. I why would I have that? We had three years of 50-50. Now you basically put me in a supervised center, then I uh we we should go down this route. And I said, nah. I'm stopping it right now, and if I you know, if I lose or whatever, I lose, but we are not mucking around with this whole two hours here or two hours there every second weekend. That's nothing. That's actually it actually is not I I see it as no benefit to any of the any party. And um so that's why I went I went for 50-50 or 100 or zero because straight away it was like you knew you're gonna lose. But that's what one of the things I love about myself is the the the selfless part where you go, someone has to take the hit. And maybe I'm too traditional or whatever, I believe the male, if they're a leader, uh they have to take the hit.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:22

During that six-year court court battle, six years, and do you meet Ange during that point? What point?

SPEAKER_01 1:49:29

Yeah, yeah. Ange w Ange and I crossed paths in uh twenty-three.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:35

I might cross over to you then, give the big fella a break and um how did you guys well actually tell us a little bit about where you're from and where you grew up?

SPEAKER_06 1:49:44

I'm a Queenslander. Queenslander. Grew up in the country. Whereabouts? Uh a Dolby.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:49

Well, uh so Cherry Creek, you know, Cherry Blackbutt?

SPEAKER_06 1:49:53

Oh yeah, Blackbutt.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:54

Yeah, me and some army mates bought avocado from there back in the day. I sold out, the boys still got it, but yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:50:00

Yeah, well so I'm you know, I've lived in a few different places but I came back to Brisbane uh settled here. Yeah. And um yeah, I'm where'd you go to school?

SPEAKER_02 1:50:10

In Dolby. Dolby, yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:50:12

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, got out of there as quick as I could. Wanted to explore the world a bit and yeah, but um I'm a bit more adventurous I guess than some country people. Yeah. Um but yeah, I'm pretty happy being in Brisbane now, not too bad. Did you go to many radios growing up or no no I'm not that country, but I did go to a couple. I went to I went I went to one.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:34

It was that you know, Crozness. Yeah, yeah. And you know what? It was awesome. I I mean they still have the man. Yeah, I want that's the one I want the one and I want the one and I have been doing. But I remember they had a um they had a ring in his western uh van there, merchandise. I was like, oh you know, buy a full kit, you know, I'm from the city. And someone said to me, don't call me like, no, you can't buy stuff from there. I was like, Why? Because apparently it's I don't know, the owner was involved in a pedophile ring or something. I don't know. So I said, Oh, I'll go buy some Larry and Williams like no, that's what City Sleek is. Oh yes. Yeah, so I went and bought to um DFA bought a full Ariot kit. Anyway, yeah, crazy. So anyway, you grew up grew up in Darwin.

SPEAKER_06 1:51:19

Yeah, and I'm uh I'm a designer, I've got my own business. Just um yeah, Len and I met I think when we were meant to meet the right time. Right time. Yeah, yeah. So we um I'd been single for a few years and after having my own marriage and everything's very calm in my world comparatively. And um yeah, we met around the time that he actually stopped being able to see his children. So I never got to meet them unfortunately.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:50

What's it like? And I hope you don't mind me saying 'cause you know, it's um you know, I speak to my partner about this all the time. I said, you know, it's it's not easy for her to date, and I refer to me as a broken father because, you know, there comes a lot of toll, trauma, energy and that absorbs on her and because you know, there's days like yesterday was a good day, but I mean the the good the the bad days outweigh the good and there's days where I'm just low on energy and she has to absorb that, you know, like I'm not saying that's what happens with Len, but you know, what's it like?

SPEAKER_06 1:52:20

No, I think that's I think that is the thing where we met and I was he needed me to help him and um I didn't know that really at the time, but I think um he's helped me a lot too, I have to say, like so many ways. Um, but I think that's what makes it work. We actually really there for each other and um we are very connected, so the emotional side can be a lot because there's a lot of emotion um because he's a very caring, sort of selfless person, and um he might come across as kind of brutally honest, but he's also that way because he cares so much. And um yeah, we've been through a lot together in in such a short period of time. Yeah, a bit. And uh yeah, that you know, I probably came into it very naive actually, um, about this world of um marriages going badly, or divorces going badly, and children and V and parental alienation, and I didn't know anything about any of it. I was probably one of those people looking at people with a DVO thinking that we're a bad person and judging them, not knowing having ever come across anybody in my life who had that. And so um I have definitely had my eyes opened. And you know, I had definitely come across women who are very selfish and um out to get it all and win everything, but I just I don't really associate with people like that, so um I'd never had never kind of seen the outcome of that. So yeah, it's definitely not just in that area, also in politics, and we talk about a lot of stuff, so um the yeah, my eyes were open to not just yeah, that, but yeah, we yeah, I think my kids were like, what what's going on? But that you know, I think I'm a I'm a lifelong learner, so I'm always interested in really understanding. So I don't just take his word for it, you know. Uh he's told me a lot of stuff, but I also then you know go and look at myself and really um I'm not an analyst, but I definitely do my homework, yeah. So I um yeah, what what I found really shocked me actually. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:39

Yeah, it is, and I have a lot of female supporters like obviously they're dating a broken father or seeing one and they they see the hurdles that they're facing or the their journey, and you know, it's um it's it's a shock, it's a shock for everyone, but that's why I do the podcast. So um so you guys meet you you obviously hard deep and family call at the time. Um was that hard to open up? I was self-representing at that stage.

SPEAKER_01 1:55:08

So yeah. Well, just before self-representing, actually. Yeah, well so actually I was with the representation uh when we first met, and then a few months after that, then I started self-representing. Because um maybe I'll just turn this a bit.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:22

What um was it hard for you to talk to Angie? Open up to Angela, like for example, I remember going on a date uh when I was going through family court, and I was seeing my daughter and um every second Saturday, Sunday for at that point in time, I think it was three hours on a Saturday and Sunday. And it was a Saturday night, and she asked me, Oh, what'd you do that? I was like, Oh, I I saw my daughter, I have her every second weekend, and she's like, Oh, so you had it today? I'm like, Yeah, so who has her now? And I said, Well, uh my my ex has her. She goes, you know, and she's just asking questions, like, so how does that make sense if you have a second weekend? I said, Well, I'll have it tomorrow for three hours. She's like, Why do you only have a three hour? I'm thinking. There you go. And I'm thinking, well, I see in supervised care, and she's like, What do you what's that? And I'm thinking, Oh man, this is you can't skirt around the and but you know, and I don't blame them. And then they're looking at you going, Oh, what what have you done? And it's like, well, I haven't done anything, but Well you yeah, you have to. Um but and I get it, and they're kind of like and it's just like, man, I it just yeah, I can't do this. It's just yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:56:24

It's a difficult convers it's a difficult stage, I guess, because you're just getting to know each other, but you can't hide that because it's well, it's you're just really you're in the middle of it, right? You're in this situation where you're it's your everyday, you have to deal with this thing. And um uh yeah, Len was very upfront with me at the beginning, and uh that was a lot for me, obviously. Because I'd like okay, well, I remember having this conversation with myself going, Well, are you in this? Are you really you know, there's you know, that was also around the criminal trial period as well, so it was a lot. And I guess it comes back to that thing of um what Lynn was talking about before about internal satisfaction versus public reputation. And you really probably live your whole life worrying about what other people are gonna think. Um and so you definitely think about that at the time because you're like, well, hang on, what if what are people gonna think about this situation? But we were just so meant to be it was just undeniable. Like within a couple of months, we were just so clearly, we were just, you know. And so you're like, Well, I can't deny this thing. It's there's a lot, it's a lot, but I know in my heart and my soul that I'm this is happening for a reason, and I'm meant to be in this and walk beside him through this. So um yeah, probably uh people from the outside probably think I'm crazy. I'm sure they have thought that or said that to me.

SPEAKER_02 1:58:04

Um, but uh you know that this person is um your person, so yeah, and it's you know, just why I'm so vocal, you know, when I get online, I speak about when I face child protection, child safety, and because I know there's so many other fighters in the same position, but they don't want to talk about it, so they feel like they're gonna get judged or they feel embarrassed.

SPEAKER_01 1:58:23

I'm like, no, I'm no, I'm telling this because there there's an important part here where it's once again it's the ability to look at yourself in the mirror when I was basically dating after my um marriage, right? Everyone knew I told them. Because they need to know. This is the person that you're going out with. You need to know. You know, and because I knew about the philosophy um because I knew about the philosophy uh statistics that's not tampered by misandrist uh ideologies or whatever, when you look at the raw data, I knew that the the children are most at risk based on statistics with the biological mother and the stepfather. Right? It's not the father. And when you think of an animal kingdom, the animal kingdom protects its own. And so when I started going out with Angela, I contacted her ex-husband and I said, Come over. Well, not uh no, I wasn't coming, he was coming over to drop something off, and I invited him in and I said, Have a seat, we need to talk. Because I want you, the ex-husband, the father of her kids, to know who she is going out with, and this is my thing. That is very confronting, but because the man in the mirror, you know what's right and you know what's wrong, you have to be man enough to go and have a cordial chat and go, I think you should know this. This is this is this is what I'm going through at the moment, but because I'm a father myself, I know that you need to know. Do you know what I mean? And then my conscience is clear because at least the father of her kids understands who Angela was going out with, because that's the right thing to do.

SPEAKER_02 2:00:36

Yeah, I and I did that with uh not my current partner, her kids are you know um 27 and 23 and the the father's a way another say, but with my ex, she had two kids, um five and seven, and we went to football. And the first thing I did, I just went over to her, hey mate, I'm Percy, just sort of introduced myself. Obviously, um dating your your ex, but you know, there's days, weekends I'm gonna be around your kids. I just sort of introduced myself. There's anything you want to know or ask, because I just think that's the right thing to do. And it's what shows a man, yeah. And I'll expect that to happen to me. Obviously, my girl lives in another country, whatever, but you know, I just think that's the right thing to do. Um so yeah, no.

SPEAKER_01 2:01:14

Because you're on a hammer to nothing. Like, you know, you like if you put yourself your situation where you know, if I put myself in the situation that uh, you know, say I'm Angela's ex-husband or whatever, you know, you still feel for that person, right? You you had kids together, you just can't you can't disconnect like that. So you you you are you are like if you cared for that person, you do care about who they're going out with. Do you know what I mean? It's not a control thing, it's it's it you actually care because your kids are going to be around that environment. Yeah. Right? And you don't have any control of that environment. So the best thing to do is is introduce yourself to out of respect. I see it as respect. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. You introduce yourself to the other side and go, hey, this is who I am. You don't need to like each other, you don't have to be best friends with each other, but it's the courtesy, it's the real like that that shows guts instead of you know um the alternative. Well that's how I see it as. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:02:20

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:02:21

You know, I see because, you know, hey, we're we're men.

SPEAKER_06 2:02:25

That's just that you're an upfront person.

SPEAKER_01 2:02:27

Yeah, I'm very I'm too upfront sometimes.

SPEAKER_06 2:02:30

And um, you know, that's always a preference, I think, than people who are like if they're not if they're sneaking around, then what are you hiding, I guess. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:02:42

So how does um so you guys meet you halfway through, I think half three years in probably at that point, family court three years ago? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:02:51

Well, yeah. Oh no, no, no, no, no. Family court finished twenty-four, yes. So, you know, it was basically towards the end.

SPEAKER_05 2:03:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:03:00

How does family court come to an end? Um I r I I basically lose everything. What lose everything if you don't mind me, it's like the judge, what the the handing down or or the judge or what what was the the system beat me.

SPEAKER_01 2:03:15

That's it. You know, um and that's why I wrote the book. No, apart, you know, there's many reasons why I wrote the book, but um the system beat me, and it's not a broken system. It's a well-designed, well-functioning.

SPEAKER_02 2:03:32

Uh before we get in the book, I just want to try and finish the family court journey. Um so you haven't seen your kids for quite some time now?

SPEAKER_01 2:03:38

Yeah, well it's it's uh nearly three years. That's not because of court or eye, is that just because of the Well well you know, when you know you're gonna lose and you're gonna get slaughtered, you really don't care what the technicality stuff is. Yeah, at the end of the day you don't see them. You know, who cares what you know is written? You know, y a piece of you put out there.

SPEAKER_06 2:04:04

So you had no choice.

SPEAKER_01 2:04:06

Yeah. So, you know, i i it's one where the faster you uh accept being destroyed, you know, losing in every possible way, the the easier it is for your mind. Uh the more you try and resist the the reality, uh you'll be funding these people more and more day to day. And that's why I went down in Canberra and I did that speech and I said, No matter uh what happens, um uh take the good and the bad of life. Because once you give up that ticket, there's no coming back. And so, yeah, you'll have some rocky times and bad times, but then you'll also have some good times. And you've got to concentrate on the good times, not the bad. But that the whole that's that's that's life. You know, don't just get into alcohol or uh take drugs, you know. Hey, you know, just get that internal, come on, I've got this. Believe in yourself, I've got this, you know. You don't need the alcohol, you don't need the drugs, you don't need the pillars, all those things. Half of these people have got problems themselves.

SPEAKER_02 2:05:24

Yeah. Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_01 2:05:26

And one of the and one of the biggest things, what a person a person going through a DV or whatever, get a dog. Trust me, I got I know. Get no, get a dog, like get get a dog. My last guess or said the same. Whether you're a female or a male, get a dog.

SPEAKER_02 2:05:45

I I think uh everyone asked me today, like, man, how are you still standing? I was like, mate, my American XL bully, everywhere I've moved, he's been, he's gone, you know.

SPEAKER_06 2:05:54

So unconditional love. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:05:56

Unconditional. They don't care what you have, they don't care what you've got, they don't care about anything, they just love to see you. And you know, and as far as I'm concerned, I've been a hundred percent correct every time I talk to it. What dog you got? Oh, it's not my dog, it's not her dog. Well, it's my dog.

SPEAKER_06 2:06:14

She's a Boston terrier crosswitter poodle, so they call that a bossy poo. A bossy poo. Or a bossy shit, as I say. Okay. She's yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:06:25

She's very spoilt by that. I I I I I've got a very close affinity uh with uh dogs from when I was younger in Samoa all the way through. When people were p like when family members were playing with family members, I'd I'd be sitting next to my right hand mate, my left hand mate, whatever, and it'd just be me and we're watching.

SPEAKER_06 2:06:48

You and the dog.

SPEAKER_01 2:06:50

Me and the dog. And and it was always where's Len? He's playing with the dog. Always the dog. And then they pass away and then another dog, and then I have an affinity with them.

SPEAKER_06 2:07:01

And that's why I've you know So why there's a page on uh acknowledgments of animals in his book.

SPEAKER_01 2:07:07

I've written down every animal.

SPEAKER_02 2:07:09

Well, let's talk about the book. So uh so you start the book post-Family Court Right? Or June? No, I've done this in the last No, just in the last six months.

SPEAKER_06 2:07:19

Six months. Oh, wow. How long it takes? Being I've been going, come on, you've got to write this down. You need to get it.

SPEAKER_02 2:07:24

It was after Canberra when we went down to Canberra. So what what date do you go to Canberra? Just 19th of November, International Men's last year?

SPEAKER_01 2:07:32

Yeah, yeah. That's right. Yeah. Came back, started writing the book and said, Len, you got a time limit.

SPEAKER_06 2:07:36

Oh, that's right. I gave him I gave him a timeline.

SPEAKER_02 2:07:40

That's very impressive. And he actually banged out a book, yeah. Yeah, you banged out. So how how long take you roughly? Three months, something.

SPEAKER_01 2:07:47

Yeah, it's a pretty much it's been three months when we did the first draft.

SPEAKER_02 2:07:51

How does making a book work? I mean, I I've never written a book. Well, you write it, then you get a published.

SPEAKER_01 2:08:01

And uh once again, i i uh uh the it's all consistent, but I'm a pluger. There's nothing fantastic about me. I haven't got some fantastic brain or anything. I'm just a pluger. And I because I believe in the spiritual God, I let I I basically put all the components around and then it just over time it somehow guy, it just somehow connects. I don't know how, and all of a sudden, oh yeah, that chapter goes with that chapter, oh yeah, that memory goes with that. But if I had to write it out, I'm gonna do this chapter here or this chapter, no, I can't do. And see, doing this book is consistent with my tertiary dissertation paper, which was the last paper I wrote, and I had to present that in front of the professor of ethics at the at the tech. I went to tech. And so, and I'm going, ethics is a load of rubbish and and social responsibility, all the rest of it. People basically say it, but they don't actually do it. Now, back in those days you had to go to the library and read a whole bunch of stuff. And so when I did that dissertation, which I got you know a very good mark for, it basically showed the evidence of what I basically said. Now, a lot of people when they were doing their dissertation paper went for something, you know, popular or whatever, but typical me, I go, what's controversial? I'm gonna go into that and I'm gonna basically prove that that narrative is wrong. And so when I went through the American books and all the rest of that kind of stuff, it showed, yeah, people basically say that they they want social responsibility, they say ethical, uh, you need to be ethical, but when it comes down to the bottom line, when you need to do what's right, you will do what's wrong in order to survive.

SPEAKER_06 2:10:00

So it's the same principle.

SPEAKER_01 2:10:02

It's the same principle self-preservation, institutional preservation, you know, and and so it's funny when I did that paper, you know, tw over twenty-five years ago. Yeah. I come and done another controversial book where you know I talk about a whole bunch of different things.

SPEAKER_02 2:10:27

Like when I look at what some of the things the viewers can expect reading your book.

SPEAKER_01 2:10:31

Oh, well, if you want confrontation, this is this is the book for it, but it's got the evidence behind it. Yeah, the scientific evidence. So it just talks about um things, you know, obviously I'm introduced, and then what alethophobia is, and that gives examples of that, um, why people don't follow what the evidence shows, uh, and then it talks about the dangerous law, the DV industry. Um it talks about, you know, a classic example is they will promote a book where it's called How to Destroy a Man, but when the Red Pill came out by Casey J, where she was a previously a feminist, now she's no longer a feminist, and she did a documentary on men's rights, they ban it over in Australia. You see the difference? How to destroy a man is publicly promoted, the red pill is banned. Do you see? And so I get get into that kind of stuff, and uh but the best the I like to talk about controversial topics. I don't know why, I just do. And and um so I I talk about the designed machine and then a lethophobia in the wide wider world, and that's where I go into the D V funding and I show the tables and Everything else, and it's clear as they it's more funding and more deaths. You know, if you're implementing strategies, wouldn't you go, why are why are the deaths getting worse when we're putting more funding towards it? Like we're talking trillion uh billions of dollars here compared to state funding. Do you know what I mean? Or two million bucks or whatever. And so I do talk about uh suicide and I talk about the Bondi Beach tragedy and uh I talk about Oh, so that was, yeah, you've just banged that out most recently.

SPEAKER_02 2:12:34

Yeah, yeah, the Bondi yeah, the Bondi the Bondi Beach. That happened October, November last year.

SPEAKER_01 2:12:40

Oh no. Um November last year. Was it last year? Yeah, it was last year. And so what it was was um once again, people go to to to in my opinion, people go towards the most popular. But really, if you have lived through being isolated from society and you feel that you're that rock bottom, anything is possible, sadly. And that's where I said I I I needed to dig. That's what dogs do. Dogs dig. And and I digg and digging, and then I found, and what they do with the media, they usually put what they want you to read, and so straight away I do the opposite and I read the middle part. Because I know the other two are trying to direct me on how to think. So I basically read the middle part. And in an article on the Bondi Beach, it said that a witness, a colleague, basically said that the son attitude and persona and behavior had basically changed since the breakdown of the relationship between him and his mother, uh, his mother and his father.

SPEAKER_04 2:13:57

Right?

SPEAKER_01 2:13:57

So you go, oh yeah, that's okay. Why is that in the middle? So then you go and read up a little bit more, you dig about the the father. Because I saw the father, when I saw the footage, and it's awful footage, when I saw the father move around, it was like he had given up on life. You you you watch him, and you I think I've watched too many movies, but if you watch his body language, he's moving like he just can't be bothered, and he's just hoping someone shoots him, to be honest. That's in my opinion. So you go, okay, I'm gonna search on the father now. So I started doing some searching on the father. He had been isolated from his family because he married this woman. So now, not only, if I'm getting this right, not only is he lost all connection with his family, like his biological family, the son, uh he is he's now disconnected from the the mother, right? So now, because he's put all his eggs into one basket, it's come undone, it's come undone, his son, who loves obviously his father, is just following what his father's basically doing, and this is all opinion. And so when you've put all your eggs into one basket, and that basket's flipped over, and you're at a certain age in life where you've you know, you can't like live life, you then basically try and find something that comes from your earlier life that gave you foundation, that gave you belief. So then they start going into what made me feel better, going to you know, the Islamic or whatever it is. But like when I felt bad, when all my eggs in my basket went over, I then went more back into my Christian give me space, give me strength, give me all this. People have different religions and all the rest of it. I'm not saying anything to have a go at any religion. I'm just saying you when you're in desperation mode, you try and retrace your steps and go, what made me feel more comfortable? Do you feel?

SPEAKER_04 2:16:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:16:20

Because you're already disillusioned with the whole world, right, with your life and how it's going. Yeah. And so to me, they were promoting immigration, they were promoting all these popular things, racism and ISIS, even though ISIS is the opposite, all that kind of stuff, right? They didn't do their DD. Now, and and you know, an ISIS flag, and you go, well, ISIS is actually, you know, when you do your study, you go, there's a lot of rubbish. Is through a family breakdown. No, they can't focus on the family breakdown because they implemented laws in 75 to make sure that no fault divorce came. Right. So they have to focus on the emotional trigger points, which is oh, this is an immigration issue, so one politician follows that, yeah, uh, it's uh domestic violence, so another politician follows that. Uh it's um they they make up whatever reason they need to make up, but at the end of the day, in my opinion, the Bondi Beach was born, the the tragedy was born from a family breakdown. Yeah, well, interesting. And because when like I said, when people feel that they've lost everything and they've reached a certain age in life, they don't care. And you know, it's it's a tragic event for everyone. That was right, they're they're pushing the anti-Semitic line. That's the other one. But, you know, and they're rem bringing in October 7 and all this kind of stuff, and that's another story. But but but but what I'm saying is that you why was the emphasis not put on the whole breakup? And why is it put in the middle of a long passage of things to read? Because people haven't got time to read the whole thing. They rely on that. So they can push through a narrative because people haven't got time. People are going from here to here to here to here. They haven't got time to read the whole thing.

SPEAKER_06 2:18:24

Do any more research themselves. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:18:26

Yeah. But you get people like me who like the question and critique. And so that's why I am deemed a threat, because I will go down that line of critiquing and then backing it up with evidence. Um, so I've become the problem. That's why this book with the the D V, the strangulation law, you know, getting making people aware, hey, this guy basically said, you know, the strangulation law is this. Is that true? Do your research and you'll be shocked. And um that's why when I when I basically go through this, you know, I talk about everyone's favorite, Donald Trump. You know, but then I also talk about uh uh democracy uh democracy versus oligarchy. And I always believed, I remember do you remember that show, uh that movie um Wall Street. Yeah, Wolf Wolf of Wall Street. No, no, no, no, Wall Street. Wall Street. No, 1987. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he and there's there's a scene in there, and it's got um Buddy, now Buddy, you you don't think that we live in a democracy, do you? Yeah. I can't remember that one. Well, yeah, but he's basically saying it to Charlie Sheen. And he said, you know, and he basically says that, you know, the average Joe means diddly squat. It's the people with the money that control the world, right? And so I was going, oh, can I find something scientific to back this up? Because I've always believed, and I remember telling the kids, it's the oligarchs that rule the world, it's not the presidents or whoever they are. They're just puppets put in there because they've been funded to be put in there to make certain things happen. And I came across it, and there was a Princeton University study, so Princeton America, and it basically said that when it came to policy making, the elites 90%, 91% determine what policy is. And so what they do is and so therefore, what democracy do we have? Nah. We are designed, and this is the thing, it is designed and marketed in a way that you think a certain way. So Donald Trump, for instance, right? He either like him, dislike him, hate him, love him, whatever. He's a polarizing uh individual. Now, because I've always believed that the American the the the president of the United States is not even near the most powerful person in the world, even though it's proclaimed that he is, he has to basically do uh whatever the people that funded him into place want. So if someone basically gives him money, they're not giving it for free. They want a favor in return. So they and and so the system, if they want something new or whatever, the oligarchs all get together and they basically will fund a certain candidate for change. So something fresh, Obama came in after the wars. All right. Then they basically did it fresh again with with Trump coming in who was anti-the narrative. And so it talks about my reasoning for saying, yeah, well, if we're talking about some of the concepts that we've talked about today, self-preservation, all the rest of it. You tell me a person in this world that if they're getting money on uh on the left hand side, if they're getting money, right, they're getting remunerated, their family's being looked after, and everything else like that, or the right hand side, Charlie Kirk or JFK, how many people would do exactly what Trump has done given the situation? My family prosper, I prosper, I keep my life, or you do what Charlie Kirk did recently, come out and say things against the funders that put you in a certain position. He was a future president as far as I'm concerned. Well, didn't he get taken out just like JFK? You know? So it's like Vladimir Putin basically said everyone's got great ideas when they get into the office, and then the black bags arrive. You know, and so I've tried to talk about certain things. I talk about very controversial things that will pee off certain people, and I'm not there to pee off certain people, I'm getting there to I want awareness and I want dialogue. I want people to keep talking about it because it's not clear-cut. And what I've seen of this world uh to date is very inverse. It's like a uh an act, and people are playing their role plays and all the rest of that kind of stuff. And one of the key things is control, and one of the other key things is compliance. If you're compliant, everyone's happy with you. If you start rocking the boat, you're gonna have a whole bunch of people after you. And see, when my relationship finished, I started getting in, I started looking at uh domestic violence awareness Australia, and I would make comments on that. Now, given my name, I'm not gonna be a John Smith. And I believe I personally believe uh when I went into battle, I had a hell of a lot of opponents. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. And that's why when I people can come up and say certain things and they go, oh yeah, that's just another asshole or whatever, you know, it's got an opinion. When it's backed up with scientific evidence, you're a threat. And that's why they tried to destroy me. The system tried to destroy me. It wasn't individuals, it was a system that tried to destroy me. And this is my FU to the system.

SPEAKER_02 2:25:27

Well where's the book available? Online or so just for the viewers at home, so you've got official world. Uh it hasn't been long. It will be available.

SPEAKER_06 2:25:38

Probably by the time this comes out, it'll be available on the website.

SPEAKER_01 2:25:41

Yeah, or yeah, whatever it is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:25:47

Okay, so the web well, what's the website called?

SPEAKER_06 2:25:49

Alethophobia.com. That's A-L-E-T-H-O-P-H-O-B-A-I-C-H-A-C-H-C-H-C-H-C-A-A-B ishophobia.com. You should look the word up though, because what's really interesting about it is if you've never heard of the word before, it's really just the fear or dislike of the truth. And all those things that Len was talking about are examples of that. You know, we don't want to really know the truth because it's hard. So m most of those examples, the controversial ones, are there because they are very good examples of alethophobia.

SPEAKER_01 2:26:24

Yeah, I gotta emphasize one one key thing. Angela and I love each other immensely. But but it does not mean that Angela agrees with everything I say, and vice versa. So some of the stuff that's in this book, Angela will have a different uh viewpoint, and I respect that, and she respects me uh putting it out for discussion or whatever. And I have no problem discussing a whole bunch of stuff uh that's written in that book, and that's where I've made sure that uh my emphasis of the book is not individuals, it's the system, and it can be fixed if people really want to fix it, you know, and the only reason they say it's a broken system is because they think it's too far. Well, if it's a broken, get rid of it, you know, put in a new system. That's what you do with something that's broken. You broke you break a glass or whatever, what do you do? Do you just try and put it all together and say, oh, it's a broken system? No. It's a well-designed, even with the pictures, well designed. What's it saying?

SPEAKER_02 2:27:32

If it's not broken, don't fix it. So maybe that's why they're not fixing it.

SPEAKER_01 2:27:36

Yeah, well, you know, and I I I think I you know, I remember I I think I'm the only one that's come out and said that it's not a broken system. Well, that's gonna have arrows coming my way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:27:48

I do have a few I I do see that comment come up a fair bit from followers saying it's not a broken, it's a well-designed, lubricated machine.

SPEAKER_06 2:27:56

Uh, it's the money train.

SPEAKER_01 2:27:58

There's a there's a great photo in here. Um here it is. And if you wanna it's up to you if you want to read that or whatever.

SPEAKER_06 2:28:08

Oh, it's a bit hard to read in a bit. Bit hard to read, maybe. But it's the same principle of the case.

SPEAKER_01 2:28:12

It's the same principle where where I'm having a go. The real evil people are the uh are the oligarchs. And they're the ones that basically feed off the feed off the vulnerable.

SPEAKER_02 2:28:24

Is it that bottom paragraph?

SPEAKER_01 2:28:26

Well, that that bottom paragraph, yeah, but i i i i it's just basically going along the lines of a double a d a d uh a Donald Duck rant you know, ramble or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 2:28:38

I'll read this bottom one. These people who own the government, who run the formidable industries, particularly the legal fraternity, sickly enjoy from up high the constant chaos and the division between normally good social citizens. Why? Because these people who designed our system intentionally ensure that the ridiculous short-sighted laws are passed to fit their agenda. When they are permitted to be legally instilled into society coupled with filmsy social narratives and deciduous propaganda, it fundamentally leads to society and gener in general feeding off the most vulnerable or the unluckiest or the most unfortunate in society. Yeah. The only winners are the oligarchs. Oli oligarchs. Oligarchs. The only winners are the oligarchs and the industries.

SPEAKER_01 2:29:30

Yeah. You know, and that's where I talk about the Trump situation and um how it's it's bigger than what people think. And like I said, when people need to do favours, you either do them or you or you know, something happens.

SPEAKER_02 2:29:51

Um is there anything we missed?

SPEAKER_06 2:29:53

I know there's not enough hours in the day to think about the family court journey, is any well I think that maybe the the meaning of the title of the book around alethalphobia and why that is the title.

SPEAKER_05 2:30:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:30:05

Do you want me to say that? No, you can you can say Oh well, just from from uh you know the word alethophobia which we've talked about, but alethophobia really at the end at the essence of it is what is what is the risk? The risk is that without people confronting the truth, without fixing this broken system, what is gonna happen is you're losing men to suicide. You're losing family, family structure, everybody becomes an individual because it's everybody every man for themselves or every woman for themselves. So that is the thing that is most at risk. Our children, you know, those are the people that suffer. So without confronting these things properly, we're just continuing to destroy the family. And men are just expendable. And um I think that's really one of the like that to me Len writing the book was so important because he's been through so much stuff, and you go, well, don't want to let that go to waste. You've got to use that to help other people who are in this situation or completely unaware that this is even going on, and we need to do stuff to remedy it because otherwise it's just it's yeah, it's involved or forty. Yeah, it's it's it's tragic.

SPEAKER_01 2:31:24

Like if you it's either you you want to fix the system or go away. That's really it, because if you're just gonna come and say, Oh yeah, no, system's going well, the rest of it, blah, blah, blah, well then.

SPEAKER_06 2:31:36

Yeah, but that's not looking at the truth.

SPEAKER_01 2:31:38

No, that's not looking at the truth, because then that's what I mean. You look at every like I said, that's scientifically evidence there. And um it's just make people aware. Just make people aware. Just like what we talked about before when you showed me what you showed me. Um, you know, at least he knows people.

SPEAKER_02 2:31:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:31:58

Yeah. I I I I I'd pissed off people with my truth. Do you know what I mean? Because it's not socially acceptable, even though I've got the evidence to back it up. Yeah. It's not socially acceptable. At least he's got connections, so he's got a chance. I had no chance when I look back at it.

SPEAKER_02 2:32:14

Um, well I've got some conclusion questions, but I'll make sure any other Well, we didn't talk about parental alienation.

SPEAKER_01 2:32:22

I didn't really want to talk too much about, you know, uh it's, you know, everyone anyone that's been on the podcast, you know, wishes that they had what they had before. Uh or you know, um it's a sad situation.

SPEAKER_02 2:32:36

Um I'd say it's it's gr it's like grieving for someone that's still alive.

SPEAKER_01 2:32:40

Yes. You know what I mean? Well, that's where even in that book I wrote, I I woke up from a dream and I wrote what the dream was, and it's heartbreaking. Um but you just gotta continue with life.

SPEAKER_00 2:32:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:32:58

You know, you just you just have to, you know, and every time I think my life is not going the way I want it to go, I think about the people that are in war battles, the people that are hungry. Do you know what I mean? They're being bombed every day or something like that. That that is a hard that that's a hard my life is, yeah, I've got my own crosses to bear, but hey, uh I've got a roof over my head and I've got you know food and drink and I can drive a car.

SPEAKER_02 2:33:28

There's always someone else doing it tougher. Yeah, and like they're just uh just down the road here's Burley Bears. And um there was a young I think he was maybe 19 or 20, less than six months ago, his plane, tackled, broken neck.

SPEAKER_01 2:33:42

Oh, that guy from Burley I thought it was up, normal. Okay. Okay. I'm pretty sure it was Burley Bears.

SPEAKER_02 2:33:47

Okay, yeah. Forgive me if you full back from Yeah, just you know, just like that, you know. And it just brings humbleness, you know.

SPEAKER_01 2:34:00

I mean and uh yeah yeah you've got to live with hope as well that the future and that was the that was the main reason and it's when I look at it I'm going, geez, I'm pretty loud. But the problem was was that when you're there when you're there the the the MC was very quiet and I'm going, well if you're gonna speak, make sure everyone hears you. I you know and and I and so that I had to put extra volume except for that stupid fly around on my at the time I was and then I said it even worse. Vexatious mischiefs.

SPEAKER_06 2:34:37

To me, that speech was an important point for Len to get his um to tell his story, but also to talk about why suicide isn't the answer. But it's very hard for anybody in that situation um when people are pushed through these sort of circumstances is like you can understand why like give up one in four hundred trillion. Chance of being born?

SPEAKER_01 2:35:03

That's so that's nine months, one in four hundred trillion. And you know, that's a hundred times or whatever it is, greater odds than winning the lotto. Yeah, and so you're gonna throw that life away because life isn't easy, or you know, you've had some rotten luck. You gotta be strong enough internally to basically go, you know what, I'm gonna put that to the side, I'm gonna breathe. Tomorrow's a new day, and I'm gonna try my best, and and and and you just you go from there. You don't get into alcohol or anything else, or pulls, pulls, because that's just as far as I'm concerned, that's bringing in an external element from what you are internally.

SPEAKER_02 2:35:54

Yeah. Alright, well, I might move on to these conclusion questions. I'll ask both of you the same question. Um the questions are tailored towards fathers, but even when I have a female partner, I guess I'm always asked because you know it's always good to get their view. First one is any advice for fathers knowing what you know now, would you have changed anything during the court process?

SPEAKER_01 2:36:15

If I had more self-confidence, I would have self-represented from the start. Same. Yeah, so if I had more self-confidence, you know, it's all these stupid little technical things, and like I said before, I don't like technology. Technology doesn't like me. And um and uh if I had if I'd done that and I had a bit more self-confidence, um, yeah, it would have been better. Would have been better. But then you just don't know. Yeah, well, you just don't know. There's different elements at play, there's there's a whole bunch of different things. So if I'd gone down there, who knows? Um I don't I I really don't know. It's no easy solution, that one.

SPEAKER_06 2:36:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:36:53

A bit hard for you to answer that one, but no.

SPEAKER_06 2:36:56

I didn't really have an answer.

SPEAKER_02 2:36:58

Yeah. Um how do we change the s system? Excuse me. Which part? Exactly. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 2:37:06

Like if I if I look at the like if I look at the family one, if I look at the family, let's say the family law, I've got it in here. I've got eleven tips. Um and where one is um excluding third parties from negotiations, like it's between two adults. That's right. Eliminate, you know, too many people. There's too many cooks in the in the kitch kitchen, as far as you know. And I think that when you put the children first, there is no reason why things cannot be solved within 60 to 90 days. Yeah, I agree. Because and if and the first thing you gotta the first thing you gotta uh uh understand is do you really care about your kids? Oh yeah. Well, do whatever it needs to get done and do it as soon as possible. Why drag it on? Do you know what I mean? And these people, the first thing they're gonna come to, I run a business or I run this or anything. No, no, no. You just get into an accountant, give us all the financials, bang, done. Next. But they don't do that. There's no advantage for there's no incentive for the legal industry to do that. Because they basically, if you delay it more and it becomes adversarial, then who benefits out of that? They want it to become they changed laws, they changed the family court laws to instead of 50-50, now it's you know, one way, really. Yeah. Why did they do that? Well, being the cynical person, I'm going, well, the DV rate has come down, now they want to increase it now. And that you know, that's the cynical part. But but what I'm saying is is that you know, if you want parties to resolve something, make them do it quicker, they will do it. Anyone in this world, if they really want to do something, they will do it everything so quick nowadays. But they don't. Why is that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:39:13

Yeah, well said.

SPEAKER_06 2:39:16

Yeah, no, a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_02 2:39:17

Oh, a funny one. You're on death row, the guard comes and asks you what you want for your final meal, drink, and dessert. I've had a lot of people that don't have a sweet tooth on that, I don't get it.

SPEAKER_01 2:39:29

Oh me.

SPEAKER_02 2:39:31

Hot meal?

SPEAKER_01 2:39:32

No, no, I I wouldn't want a hot meal. I'd want, you know, you sugar galore. You get dessert as well, but I'm a greedy guy. You only want dessert. Yeah, no, I I you know, I uh that is one of the biggest regrets in my life is not having a bigger stomach.

SPEAKER_02 2:39:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:39:54

Honestly.

SPEAKER_06 2:39:54

You can eat more food in the floor.

SPEAKER_01 2:39:56

I I am so disappointed when I go to a feast and I fill up too quick and I'm going, that's pathetic. You're supposed to be half islander or whatever, and you know, all this kind of stuff. What do you go to? Jimmy's custard. You got donuts, you got you got anything sweet, anything sweet, plus burger and fries.

SPEAKER_06 2:40:19

Burger fries and a milkshake.

SPEAKER_01 2:40:23

Hungry jack, someone. KFC always pops up. I I want a piece of everything. So KFC has that and basically, you know, sambuk of there or whatever it is. Zembrero. Zembrero and oh, it's barbecue pork from the Chinese, you know. It's a whole smoggers ball, but I can't fill it.

SPEAKER_06 2:40:42

He'd want a feast.

SPEAKER_02 2:40:43

Give it yourself.

SPEAKER_06 2:40:44

Ah, geez. I don't know. Um I'd probably go for ice cream.

SPEAKER_02 2:40:50

Yeah. What about hot meal?

SPEAKER_06 2:40:53

Hot meal. Oh, yeah, probably like a curry. Oh yeah. Yeah, something. Chicken curry spicy or something punch.

SPEAKER_02 2:41:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:41:04

Something memorable.

SPEAKER_01 2:41:05

Maybe your last meal.

SPEAKER_06 2:41:06

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 2:41:06

Like mine.

SPEAKER_06 2:41:09

Uh, probably tequila. Tequila. Margarita. I'm a margarita girl. No, I I I often think about that. I don't really have a favourite meal, but I definitely have favourite desserts.

SPEAKER_01 2:41:22

Which is my enemy. I think we had, didn't we have one stage we had seven, two litres of ice cream?

SPEAKER_06 2:41:28

In our freezers.

SPEAKER_02 2:41:29

Well.

SPEAKER_06 2:41:31

That's your fault because you go shopping. It's my fault. Just keep buying them on sale.

SPEAKER_02 2:41:36

Um if you're in a room with every single person you'd met or interacted with on this journey, who is the first person you'd be drawn to and why?

SPEAKER_06 2:41:47

Yeah, that's definitely the truth. Yeah, each other. Vice versa, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:41:53

She's she she's been like a guardian angel to me. Beautiful. You know, she's um to me, you know, when people and I've said this before, when people talk about Lotto meeting Angela was winning Lotto. Beautiful. No, I got nothing. Right? She's she's a gorgeous person and inside and out. And it's very rare. And uh it I was very I was very fortunate.

SPEAKER_02 2:42:21

Beautiful man. Love that. Um two more to go. What strategies or tips help during the process that you could recommend to any listeners?

SPEAKER_01 2:42:32

Get a dog. Definitely get a dog. A dog is just a tremendous creature. Um the other thing is uh don't beat yourself up. Like there's enough people out there that will do that. Um, and stick true to the people that uh have always been there by your side, family and a couple of good mates that I have that I've known nearly forty years. And even though they live overseas, as nice as you know, we just need to catch up and all of a sudden it's like, you know, like yesterday. Yeah, just like yesterday. And we don't need to talk each day or anything, each month.

SPEAKER_04 2:43:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:43:16

But you know, when you hit rock bottom, you know, it's amazing how the relationships still survive. So um and the other thing is just you know, uh uh don't be angry too much at the other side. But understand it's the system. And that's what I've tried to do and communicate is it's the system at play, it's not the individuals. And it's a bit like a rugby league game. You know, if you can play certain advantages your side in that game of footy, and if you win, everyone just remembers the winners, don't they? They don't remember the losers. And you know, it's just human nature of people doing whatever they need to or have to to survive. Um and when you have and when you don't have that hate or dislike internally, you know, you've got disappointment. You feel better.

SPEAKER_06 2:44:18

It's lighter.

SPEAKER_01 2:44:19

Yeah, it's so much lighter. You know, you go, oh, you know, this and that. And and but unfortunately, some people uh still need to be able to work on that. And I'd recommend that, you know, just you only live life once, and 50 years time we're gonna be hardly talked about, 200 years' time, no one's gonna talk about us. Why are we wasting time here? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:44:42

What about you? Maybe what strategies help during maybe what strategic tips would help uh another m partner out there that's dating that I fellows gone through the process maybe.

SPEAKER_06 2:44:53

I think you have to listen to your gut. That's your number one anchor in this journey. And that's for both sides, I think. Everybody you kind of second guess yourself and let listen to your head or whatever, but if you listen to your gut, you know and your heart. Um you know what's right. And I mean in my life, whenever I didn't listen to my gut, I usually find there's a payback for that later on, so you gotta trust it. And um and I think you'll find that you'll come out okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:45:25

Last one. I know what it is. You know what it is. Take your time. You want me to ask her first? Yeah, you go first.

SPEAKER_01 2:45:33

I've always believed, and this is the funny thing, I've always believed that women are stronger than men.

SPEAKER_06 2:45:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:45:38

I do. Any any message for your children?

SPEAKER_06 2:45:43

Uh well, probably I would save to them. Trust your gut. And um don't care so much about what other people think.

SPEAKER_02 2:45:50

How old are your children? You don't mind me out? Uh, they're all teenagers. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:45:53

So I think for me it's a matter of you know when you look back at your life what was really important and when you did things that um you know you were meant to do, and if you don't um trust yourself, like you're the person, as Len says, you're the only person you can really trust. And that's the thing to remember. Like if you're worrying about other people all the time, you're not really living.

SPEAKER_02 2:46:21

Yeah. All right, big fella. Then you're ready. Well, well, leave for the children's message for the children.

SPEAKER_01 2:46:29

I'm just so proud of them.

SPEAKER_02 2:46:32

Yeah, it's um take your time, brother.

SPEAKER_00 2:46:37

Yeah, no, it's um I am so so proud of them. They didn't deserve any of this.

SPEAKER_01 2:46:46

And um I want them to continue doing what they're doing, whatever it may be.

SPEAKER_00 2:46:52

And that uh my doors are my doors always open and um you know, the infinity, infinity, you know, that that connection we had.

SPEAKER_01 2:47:05

And uh they just need to live their life. You know, look after themselves, look after you know, each other and um just know that, you know, uh their their dad tried the best he could. And uh even when he knew he was losing or he was gonna lose, he still remained committed. Um uh and uh you know, if we meet, we meet. Uh if we don't, this is the way life goes. Um but just know that uh I love them forever and uh this is one of the main reasons why I wrote the book. So you know it it gives them a chance um to understand you know a lot of the situations and uh they deserve to know because there's no use me keeping hold of certain things. At least this way there's an opportunity. Now that's up to them. And whether it be later on or whatever, that's up to them. My conscience is clear. I've done whatever I could. Yeah. And uh thank you so much for having us on.

SPEAKER_02 2:48:31

No, mate, thank you both for coming on. Um I've no doubt they're gonna see this message one day, you know. So um but on behalf of the Broken Fathers podcast, I'd like to thank you both for coming on, taking time every day to come down. I hope it's been like a relief or a weight off the shoulder to help you move forward knowing that your story's here and time and date stamped, and um wishing you both nothing but the best moving forward. And for all the viewers, and this is the book will be online in a couple weeks, roughly, give or take. Oh yeah. I don't want to rush. Yeah, okay, don't just stay tuned. Watch that space. Um and yeah, guys, anything from anything we missed before we close it up?

SPEAKER_01 2:49:14

Uh no, you know, um I'm wondering to see what happens from this. Well we'll we'll find out. You know, people don't like I said, people don't like the truth, you know, and the stuff in that book. There's a lot of truths there. There's gonna rattle a lot of them and and uh and uh but you know at the end of the day I actually want things to be better. The intention is wanting to think better but not people close their eyes and think oh yeah and use ex you know and blame this or blame that, you know. Uh one of the key things to any relationship is choose wise and follow your gut and uh whatever happens, happens, but you know, um just for people to look after themselves and know that the sun always rises in the east every morning and not to beat themselves up.

SPEAKER_03 2:50:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:50:15

Alright guys, we'd hope you were thank you. Thank you so much for coming on, my man. Thank you so much, Ans, appreciate it. Cheers.