217. What It’s Really Like Working Inside a Prison as a Therapist with Ana Godoy

Working inside a prison as a therapist is not something most clinicians ever picture for themselves. But for Ana Godoy, it turned out to be one of the most humbling, eye-opening experiences of her career.

In this episode of The Traveling Therapist Podcast, I sit down with Ana, a bilingual social worker and licensed clinician based in Southern California, to talk about what led her to take a contract role inside a California state prison, what the work actually looked like day to day, and how that leap eventually opened doors she never expected. If you've ever thought about doing something completely outside your clinical comfort zone, this one is for you.

In This Episode, We Explore…

• What drew Ana to correctional mental health work after 25 years in schools and family services.
• What it was actually like walking into a prison and running groups with incarcerated individuals.
• How contract recruiting works for mental health clinicians in California, and what to expect with pay and benefits.
• The telehealth options now available inside correctional settings, and why some positions don't require you to be on-site.
• How Ana is now channeling her experience into independent facilitation and consulting for families navigating the California Regional Center system.

Connect with Ana Godoy:
Website https://mifortaleza.us/
Website https://allthingslatina.com/

Are you ready to take the plunge and become a Traveling Therapist? Whether you want to be a full-time digital nomad or just want the flexibility to bring your practice with you while you travel a couple of times a year, the Portable Practice Method will give you the framework to be protected!
➡️ JOIN NOW: www.portablepracticemethod.com/

Connect with me:

• www.instagram.com/thetravelingtherapist_kym
• www.facebook.com/groups/onlineandtraveling/
• www.thetravelingtherapist.com

The Traveling Therapist Podcast is Sponsored by:

Berries: Say goodbye to the burden of mental health notes with automated note and treatment plan creation! www.heyberries.com/therapists

Alma: Alma is on a mission to simplify access to mental health care by focusing first and foremost on supporting clinicians www.helloalma.com/kym

Transcript

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SPEAKER_00 0:02

I'm Kim Tolson and I'm the traveling therapist. It's my passion to teach therapists how to navigate online private practices and multiple income streams so they can travel the world. I'm a digital nomad with a virtual insurance-based private therapy practice and a multi-six-figure coaching business. In this podcast, I will discuss my journey as a digital nomad, I'll chat with other traveling therapists, and help you navigate the complexities of running an online insurance-based practice. I'm so glad to have you with me on this journey. A year from today, what would your dream private practice look like? Would you spend less time chasing claims or only working with clients who value your skill set? What if you had more time for yourself? AMA empowers you to confidently accept insurance backed by an all-in-one EHR that simplifies scheduling, documentation, and day-to-day practice operations. Your dream practice is closer than you think. Learn more about AMA at helloAMA.com. A year from today starts now at helloAMA.com. Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of the Traveling Therapist Podcast. I'm excited for our guests today. You guys know I try to bring a wide variety of guests, and we have Anna Gadoy here with us today. She's caught a little bit of a different traveling therapist story. And even before we hit record, we were trying to like, we're thinking like, well, how can we tie this into like being a traveling therapist and all of that? So I think you guys are going to find it interesting. Anna, welcome to the podcast. I'm so glad to have you here. And I always start out with that question like, how'd you go from being a typical therapist to a traveling therapist?

SPEAKER_01 1:49

Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here too. I'm a little nervous. I'm trying to conquer those jitters. I was here in Southern California for 25 years as a social worker, then got licensed, and then that's when I started, you know, looking around and saying, you know, I really can go after my dream job, which I always wanted to travel around when I was younger, but because of you know being a single parent and trying to be in a career and be stable and have benefits and retirement and all that, I really couldn't just get up and go. However, about three years ago, a couple different things happened around the same time in my life, my personal life. And so, you know, the license came around and I said, you know what, maybe I need to get out of my current environment so that I can continue to grow as a person, as a professional. And so I didn't want to do any drastic changes and like leave the state because I really, really love California. So I looked, you know, where else can I go? And I ended up actually being recruited by a contractor that works providing mental health services in the correctional setting. And so, yes, it was a totally different field, a totally different population to work with. But I ended up in Northern California working at CMF, which is a California medical facility, which is like the hospital prison of California.

SPEAKER_00 3:23

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

Totally different population because I had been working with families, kids, school districts for those 25 years, and then now going into like kind of a medium, minimum security prison. And hearing their stories and the day-to-day sadness and a lot of bad things that we have to deal with. So it was a totally, totally different experience, but it was very humbling.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

That's really interesting. Yeah. Could you tell us a story maybe about like an incarcerated individual that really like it impacted you? Or maybe even like, how did you decide you wanted to work with incarcerated individuals? Because to me, that seems scary. I actually had a job in an agency, but I worked like for an agency, like bachelor's level, and they made me like the prison liaison. Like, I don't know how I got this job, but I because I specialize in substance abuse, they were like, you're gonna be the prison liaison. So I'm like this 20-something, you know, like right out of school. And I'm like having to go into the prison. And I, you know, I don't think they were like murderers on that level. They were more like it's like the county jail more, but still, I remember it, you know, evaluating for schizophrenia, like just people that were just like not on meds or anything. Like it was like baptism by fire, like they would say. I still remember it. It was like scary. Like I'm I think back now, I'm like, I was pretty brave to just like hop in there and just do this. Like I knew nothing about what I was doing. That's me like getting off on a tangent, but just like with did you have something happen that made you want to work with incarcerated people, or you just thought it'd be super interesting?

SPEAKER_01 4:56

I have been fascinated by the correctional system for a long time, just you know, how it works and like crime and deviancy and you know, delinquency. I mean, I worked at group homes when I was younger. I was in Juvenile for a little bit, but I also I did go up there and work at the county for one year and then the prison the next year. But I honestly was like you, I didn't really know exactly what I was getting into because I had never been in a prison or visited or have ever even been arrested and like thrown in the jail cell. So all of this was foreign to me. But you know, at the point that I was at in my life, I was like, you know what? I need excitement, I need something new, I need novelty. I'm tired of the you know, humdrum, monotonous life. And so I signed up and yeah, once I got there and realized like you are working with murderers and horrific crimes that they've committed. And so I think I started panicking the first day when I was already on site, and so they said, you know, you're gonna do groups, all groups, right? No individuals. So it was pretty intimidating, you know, to have you know eight grown men, sometimes 14. Some of them were are are like their stature is like a football player to you know a guy that's nerdy and looks like a librarian. But so when you get in there though and you actually do the work, they're just people that are hurting. And so basically I fit in. You know, people were like, Are you scared? Or you know, do you and I would say no, it's I kind of feel at home.

SPEAKER_00 6:30

I kind of like it.

SPEAKER_01 6:31

In some way, in some way I feel because um because being a non-judgmental presence and being around people that you know have learned, not all of them, but there is a lot that they have regret and they have changed their thinking about life and how precious it is. And you know, they made mistakes, but so you do deal with a lot of depression and sad feelings and regrets and anger. You know, right now, actually, there's a really high number of suicides and um celly murders, which is, you know, the two two guys living within the same cell. It's overcrowded. I mean, it's just an eye-opener to be in there in this locked facility and see the day-to-day stuff where I had zero idea of, you know, working my regular nine to five job for so many years, no idea about what's going on in these facilities, institutions.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

Yeah, yeah. I I remember, you know, from a social worker perspective, you're an LMHC, but I'm sure you got the same type of training, like just like a systems perspective. I remember thinking that myself, like the system is so screwed up, it's like, yeah, okay, they made one mistake. Like, let's like, how can we rehabilitate? Like, I remember having that, like, sort of, you know, young mental health advocacy type feeling about it, you know, like like I want to change the system. And, you know, I guess I learned that you really it's hard, it's hard to change something like that. So, how do you help them cope? But I hear you with that. So, so you liked it. I mean, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

I did, I did, and like I said, it it was uh an eye-opening experience because, like, let's just say I played a video of like resiliency and making the best out of your situation, and then I'd look over and I'd see this guy that was like six, four, three hundred pounds, look like a football player with tears streaming down his eyes. And so I knew that deep down some of them had been impacted, and you know, others not, but for the ones that were open and were healing and were processing or had been processing, because some of the guys, I remember one of them saying he had been there for 45 years. Another guy was on death row in San Quentin and had been transferred to CMF where I was at. So they all have different stories, but yeah, just seeing that though they're still, you know, hurting unprocessed traumas that would come to surface in the groups and they would be vulnerable and you know, share a little bit about what happened and so that's why I'm saying it was it was just a learning, a huge, huge, I think like a spiritual education, you know, that you you can't get it from a book. It's like these are real life in vivo experiences that touch you and you know, you take that with you.

SPEAKER_00 9:19

Yeah, that that's so interesting. You know, before we hit record, we were chit-chatting about this a little bit, but uh it's interesting. So it's if somebody's listening to this, like I know it's probably maybe it's different in every state how this operates or works, but if somebody's like, yeah, that's my calling, like I want to be working in the prison system, that sort of thing. How did the recruiter thing work? And then you had mentioned before we hit record that like there's contract links with this stuff. So you do like contracts. And then we were talking about like in California, for example, you could literally transfer from institution to institution if say you wanted to maybe just travel all around California as a traveling therapist and you know, live and work in different places. Like that is actually a viable option for somebody that might want to do something like that.

SPEAKER_01 10:05

Yes, absolutely. There are a lot of recruiting companies out there because what the prison system here in California has done is that they are using contractors for their mental health services. There are still some state employees, clinicians that do provide services and that are state employees, right? But they do use a lot of the contractors to fill in gaps or just you know to find like the employee pool that they're needing. And so that's how I ended up finding or coming across this contractor. And because you're not a state employee, and there are some downsides of being with the contractor, for example, a lot of them don't pay vacation hours, they don't pay holidays, the health benefits are not as good as being a direct state employee, but the rate is very good, and then a lot of times, like with me, there was a relocation incentive. So when I looked at the whole package together, you know, I said, Yeah, this is this is the change that I'm looking for, I think. And so went up north. But from there, when that contract was over, you know, I could have I could go to San Quentin, I could go to Stockton, I could go to San Luis Abispol, different tohache, you know, in the mountains, so different cities, and you know, still get that correctional counseling that I enjoyed, but also kind of like I said, the novelty effect of be just being in a new place, new people, new environment. So it is an exciting opportunity for someone who can just take that leap and is very versatile where they can just get up and move. And so yeah, it was a whole different experience than being the career person I had been. But yeah, it was it's it's awful a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_00 11:48

Yeah, that's very cool. And especially if you're like totally comfortable with it and you like the work. I mean, why not? So, how long is the typical contract with this type of thing? Like six months or yeah, six months to a year, like you can choose, or they just have different like options available.

SPEAKER_01 12:03

Yeah, you work with the recruiter to kind of let them know what you're looking for, they let you know what they have open, they have prisons, they have like intensive outpatient programs, they have other facilities, they have like working from home for workers' compensation. So there's the recruiting company has a lot of different contracts, and so once you're in with the company, then you can go on their dashboard and see what's open, maybe go to an area that you want to go to, see if there's anything there. Like I know a San Quentin, right? You know, they're hiring a lot of clinicians because they have this whole like revamping of their approach to rehabilitation. So they're having like a lot of classes and different groups going, and so yeah, San Quentin was on the dashboard when I was mid in between contracts to to go to a different place.

SPEAKER_00 12:54

That's amazing. So, how do you find a recruiter for that? I mean, just Google like mental health prison recruiters, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 13:02

You know, what I did was I went on Indeed and I put a resume up there.

SPEAKER_00 13:06

Oh, okay. And then somebody found you. Okay, and then you kind of got into the recruiting system or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 13:13

Yes, and what's going on too in California because there's such a shortage of therapists, and I think it's nationwide, but definitely in California, that it's kind of like a root a mini recruiting war where like I'm st I'll still be contacted by other recruiters even though I'm already in a contract and you know, just just an FYI when that contract's up, you know, do you want to come and work for the school district? Or do you want to come and work, you know, for just a different entity that is needing clinicians, ASAP?

SPEAKER_00 13:42

So when you say, and and please tell me if you don't want to say, but when you say like it, they pay a pretty good rate, like what are we talking like? Is it like hourly or is it like a like a compensation package, like we'll pay you $50,000 for the next three months or six months or whatever? Like, how do they pay?

SPEAKER_01 13:59

You know, the recruiting companies pay you from my experience and from me talking with other clinicians that were also in this recruitment market, it seems like they mostly pay the hourly. Some of the contracts include benefits, some of them do not. It kind of depends on like what you negotiate and how much they they need you, maybe. But so around I would say like the first company I was with, it was almost 60 an hour, but then the second company I was with was 75 an hour.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

Okay, gotcha. Nice.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

And you know, they both included benefits, a little bit of sick hours. So, you know, that kind of a of a job kind of I think works well for if you have your own benefits, you know, because there is it just seemed like it would work for some maybe somebody that had a spouse that has benefits and a stable job and then kind of doing the this type of work because you can, you know, make very good money right away. And then they also take a lot of clinicians that are not experienced and have no background in forensics, so it's pretty easy to get into.

SPEAKER_00 15:09

Now, do you have to be a California resident for something like that, or do you think they're like recruiting from other states, or do you not know?

SPEAKER_01 15:15

Yeah, it's kind of a weird question. I don't know if I came across somebody from another state. What I do know that they're doing though, because again of shortages, is like they're doing telehealth with psychiatry from out of state. And I know that they are still doing a lot of telehealth for just clinicians.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

Oh, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 15:34

Yeah, so so some in some of the positions you don't have to be on site.

SPEAKER_00 15:38

Oh, well, that's interesting. Yeah, that makes it a lot more flexible.

SPEAKER_01 15:43

Yeah, and you know, for me it was different because since I was doing only psychoeducational groups, clinical groups, I had to be there because you know it's not so effective telehealth with group with a group format.

SPEAKER_00 15:56

Yeah, it's a little bit hard.

SPEAKER_01 15:57

Yeah, to manage all of that. But so being on site, you know, for me, it was you know a requirement because of doing groups, but I I also liked being on site. Yeah, a lot of therapists do.

SPEAKER_00 16:10

A lot of therapists do. They're like, no, I want to sit in the room with my client. Me, never. I would never want to see that pen. There are a lot of therapists that want to for sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:20

So so that's so yeah, I was there. I was there in the trenches, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:23

Yeah, that's awesome. I think this is super interesting. People listening might be like, Wow, I'm gonna go look for a a prison recruiter right away. See if they can find something. It's really interesting, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:34

Oh, yeah. It was a total, total different experience than what I, you know, have had. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:41

And then since then, you've left you've left the prison system, right? And are you just all private practice now? Or I yeah. What are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 16:50

I am doing private practice with again, there's a whole bunch of agencies out there that are like, you know, private practice management companies. So you sign on with them and they bring they give you all the referrals, but they take their cut. So that's what I'm doing right now, but I am trying to break into a couple different new opportunities, and I think a lot of it has to do with where I'm at emotionally, where I need newness, I need novelty, I need something that's gonna excite me. And so yeah, I record really easy. Yeah, I I need to be resuscitated, you know, back to life. So one of the things that I'm doing is becoming doing, I have this company that I started and it's you know still in the beginning phases, but I'm trying to become more of an advocate and social worker through this independent facilitator role that the California Regional Center system has implemented, which is called um self-determination program. And so it's basically being kind of like a social worker, but kind of like through the family, through the consumer, through the client. And so it's kind of like the job I had before, but now instead of being employed by the actual regional center, it's more of like being employed by the family.

SPEAKER_00 18:10

That is so interesting.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

It is a totally different way of doing work and services. But sometimes, and what I'm noticing too as a trend is people being more involved and engaged in their own treatment and also having that authority over their funds.

SPEAKER_00 18:31

Uh, the the families you mean, like they've got control of the disability, whatever funding is is support. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 18:40

So it gives them a little bit more authority, more autonomy, more choice. And so that's kind of like what I'm trying to tap into. And then another thing that I'm also looking into is uh 3D printing, which has absolutely nothing to do with people.

SPEAKER_00 18:53

Well, let's hear about it. I love stuff like that. But I bought a 3D printer one time for my nephews, and they did make some really cool stuff from that.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

Yeah, yes, you can make amazing things, and so that's what I'm saying. Like at this point where I am emotionally, spiritually, personally, professionally, I have this like energy of looking into things that I may not have of before because of, like I said, being, you know, an average middle income taxpaying American citizen. Now, you know, I have more liberties. I retired from my previous job, and so now I'm more of like a freelancer. And so I started seeing these uh 3D printers and like some of the little, you know, cute little novelty things that they were printing, and like some people are making, you know, businesses out of it. And I've always kind of been a creative artsy person too, and so I bought one, I'm waiting for it to get here, but you know, I'm like excited like a kid. I keep checking outside to see like it was a box. There is my box there.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

Yeah, oh, that's exciting. Yeah, that's really exciting. I love that. I'm super creative like that too. I just like to make things, you know.

SPEAKER_01 20:03

Yes, yes, and so it's kind of like self-care too for us.

SPEAKER_00 20:06

Yeah. So the the business with the families, like the incarcerated families, was that the consulting you were talking about? I know before we hit record, we were talking about like consulting. Is that what you were talking about? Or is there some other like consulting thing you're doing on top of that?

SPEAKER_01 20:20

No, the consulting has nothing to do with the prison, it's more of um working with developmentally disabled families, which is what I was doing way before.

SPEAKER_00 20:30

Nice. Okay, cool. Okay, that's very cool.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

So it's being kind of like a social worker that's hired by the family to advocate on their behalf to work for them. But no, it has nothing to do with the prison. The consulting is it's just helping people navigate systems here in California, like special education, the regional center system, accessing services, and then you know, the whole like appealing denials from resources, county programs. So it's a lot of work and information to know for parents that are totally unfamiliar with these systems.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

So interesting. Part of this podcast, we always like talk about entrepreneurial type stuff. So, how with that consulting thing, is that like something like you're still able to like they can use their insurance somehow, or is that like a private pay, like like a retainer? And here's the services, I'll help you navigate till you reach this goal kind of thing, or like how like how does that work? I'm curious.

SPEAKER_01 21:27

The way that it works is it's exclusive to the regional center system. So in California, developmentally disabled Californians are served by they're called the regional centers of California. Okay, so just like you have the mental health system and you have the educational system and you have the correctional system, the system that is responsible to serve developmentally disabled Californians is the regional center system, which is a huge system. They are the ones that fund this new model of. Of social work.

SPEAKER_00 22:01

I see. That's really interesting. So you're like a consultant and they would reach out to you and say, Oh, well, we have Anna. She's a consultant. She's bilingual. We had we'd share that she's bilingual and knows everything about navigating the prison system. You know, when you're when you can't advocate for your loved one or something like that. So they would connect you or your loved one is autistic or something in neurodivergent in the prison system. Like she knows everything about how to navigate that. No.

SPEAKER_01 22:28

No, no, no, because it has nothing to do with the prison system. Nothing.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

Okay, nothing to do with the prison system. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

Everything else, everything else you just said was on point. But it's with the regional, it's with the regional center system.

SPEAKER_00 22:39

Gotcha. Okay. That's not the prison system.

SPEAKER_01 22:41

Yeah. So basically that's what it is. It's like, you know, this family has an autistic child and they're confused and they don't know where to go. How do I get therapy? Who's going to help us? He's out of control. Maybe we have to have the you know, we have to call the police on him because he became violent. We don't know, you know. Then he, you know what? Anna Gadoy, she's an independent facilitator. She's bilingual. She has worked with this regional center giant system. She worked there for 25 years as a as an employee. Now she has her own private independent facilitator company.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

That's amazing. Yeah, yeah. So smart. Got it.

SPEAKER_01 23:18

And it it helps the family. Ultimately, who's the one that benefits from all of it? Is that is the because they get to stay at home with their family where they're going to be taking care of the best that they probably will be taking care of, you know, because you know, when there's a developmental disability, a lot of times we require non-stop attention and supervision and caring. And so that's the goal is to keep, you know, family members intact, prevent out-of-home placements, and just, you know, make sure everybody's happy and safe.

SPEAKER_00 23:47

That's amazing. Yeah. It's bringing me back to my autism services days. I I worked for Autism Services Center all through like my bachelor's level school. And yeah, I mean, it was the same thing. It was like you're pretty much a social worker having to find all the resources to help the families and also respite, like I was also a respite care for the autistic kids.

SPEAKER_01 24:07

Are you from California?

SPEAKER_00 24:09

No, this was in West Virginia where I went to my undergrad in Huntington, West Virginia, and there was Autism Services Center there. And yeah, I had to do essentially the social working, but as a case manager, but also a lot of I did a lot of the respite care because it was like, you know, they paid you hourly to go sit with. I would work it with autistic teenagers to go sit with them and like fix their lunch and make sure they're not spreading like one. I had one that would like put feces on the wall. Like I had to like keep it from doing that. So just all that direct care. We were like direct care staff is what they call us, like respite workers. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

It's very similar to what's here in California, which is the region, the regional center CISO. Yeah, they are the ones that fund respite, they fund behavior modification programs, they fund all kinds of things for developmentally disabled Californians.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

That's such a smart idea. It's like I used to work there, I know all the ins and outs, I know everybody there, I know who you talk to, but you need this, this, or this done. I'm gonna be your consultant that holds your hand through this whole maze of resources. Yeah, that's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

Yes, yes. And we're called independent facilitators, but I also still do consulting with other uh families that are not going through that model of the self-determination, but they still want to appeal, you know, a denial for social security income, or they want to appeal this other denial from the school district. So I still consult and help them, you know, just give them information and navigate through the process. But yeah, it's kind of like, yeah, be diversifying and using this knowledge base that I already have.

SPEAKER_00 25:47

And that's I mean, that is the whole point of this podcast, really. It's like take all the skills that you have. We have the most unique job in the world. We can totally create anything we want, we could be anything we want, you know, and build that life that we want to live around, like whatever we make ourselves into. If you want to be a consultant, be a consultant. Yes, you can do it, you know. You've got the background and the license to back it up. So that's really very inspirational to hear you talking about that.

SPEAKER_01 26:14

Yeah, you just have to take the leap.

SPEAKER_00 26:16

Yeah, just start, just get started, see where it goes.

SPEAKER_01 26:18

Yes, yeah, that's what I told myself was you know what, just do it and see what happens.

SPEAKER_00 26:23

I love that. So, how do people find you? They want to hear about your consultancy, or maybe they live in California and they need your help. Like, how do people find you to work with you or learn more about what you do?

SPEAKER_01 26:35

Yes, my company website, which is nefortaleza.us, and that is uh the multi-service agency where I provide clinical services, I provide independent facilitation, I provide consultation, couples counseling. So there's a couple different services that you know you can explore and connect with me on. Then there's also the other website that I have that I really love that I have had for, I don't know, 15, 60 years. I never did anything with it. So it sat around for a while, but I'm starting to develop it more now, which is called all thingslatina.com. And that is more of just like the Latina lifestyle or experience here in Southern California. So I like that one because you know, we it's just a more of a cultural things that are happening in in LA or in Southern California, just coming from people that were born and raised here.

SPEAKER_00 27:32

Yeah, you know, that's awesome. Wow, you're doing a lot of really cool stuff.

SPEAKER_01 27:36

I think I'm sewing my oats and making up for time.

SPEAKER_00 27:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

You know, uh of things that I wanted to explore many, many years ago, but just didn't have the time.

SPEAKER_00 27:45

Yeah, I love that. Yeah, because you were a young mom. I read your bio. You were young mom at 15 or yes.

SPEAKER_01 27:52

15 years old, I had my daughter and was oh, you know, just a really hard, difficult experience on a lot of different levels. But, you know, I was able to dig my way out of that situation with my parents' help and you know, ended up going to college and having a pretty decent life.

SPEAKER_00 28:11

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 28:11

So, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

Well, thank you for taking the time today to come and share your story and inspire others.

SPEAKER_01 28:17

Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 28:23

Thank you so much for listening to the Traveling Therapist Podcast. For show notes, links, and downloads, head over to thetraveling therapist.com where you'll be able to learn more about my journey, the courses I've created for you, and other exciting resources to make your dreams become a reality. If you've enjoyed this episode, please share with your traveling therapist friends, subscribe to the podcast, and if you love this episode, please leave a review.