We Are Coping and We Are Capable: The Women of The ATS

They are coping and they are capable! They are the women of Britain's Auxiliary Territorial Service! Much like the American women of the WAAC, WAVES and Women's Marine Corps, the women of The ATS filled the roles of cooks, transportation, clerical roles and mechanics. The only difference? The ATS women were conscripted and granted full military status and yes, even their most well-known member, then Princess Elizabeth of Windsor. Grab your coffee and a fresh sinker and join us in The Clubmobile as we dig into the service of The ATS and the differences between the US Women's Military and Britain's. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Hey guys, here come the dollars. They got fresh sinkers, hot coffee, and the sweetest smile.

SPEAKER_03 0:15

Welcome back to the Club Mobile, everybody.

SPEAKER_01 0:18

Hi everyone. Welcome back.

SPEAKER_03 0:20

So happy to have you joining us today. Um good old-fashioned me and you having a yep.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

Yeah. Just me and you learning again from each other and and figuring new things out. It's I think this is a really cool topic. I've been excited to talk about this one.

SPEAKER_03 0:36

I'm very excited to talk about this. No shade to any time we have guests on, honestly. Because they're all so much fun. But I thoroughly enjoy the ones where you and I get to sit down and go, hey, we learned something. I want to talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 0:53

Yes, that's really always very fun. And I like that we can then share it with everyone else. What we've been rabbit holding. Learning, yeah. What we've been unraveling. If only you guys could hear what we edit out of these episodes, though. Oh no, please no.

SPEAKER_03 1:11

It's I sneeze. I sneeze a lot. That's really what it is. It's a lot of me showing it's a lot of me showing my age. I sneeze a lot and I complain about the fact that I slept funny and hurt my back.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

That's literally all I edited out last night when I did stuff. I all I had was sneezes and pinch nerves.

SPEAKER_03 1:30

Oh well, don't get old, kids.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Oh god, Jesus. So today we're going to be talking about the ATS, the Auxiliary Territorial Service. We're on your side of the pond now. We are, yeah. I was about to say we're on my end of the spectrum. Uh, this was an offshoot of the British Army for women. And it was formed in 1938, and it was, of course, the purpose was to free up male soldiers for the front line. They got a lot of empty spaces to fill, and they begrudgingly let women leave the house and leave the kitchen as usual. Begrudgingly. Begrudgingly. I never try to frame these things negatively, but I always feel like it was always begrudging.

SPEAKER_03 2:14

The men are always so surprised. Every time we read a book and the women do something really, really badass. The men are always so surprised. And it's like, still, you're still you're still surprised.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

You're still shocked.

SPEAKER_03 2:30

You're still shocked. Like, come on, guys.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

But the ATF had a really cool story and a really cool start.

SPEAKER_03 2:39

Their history stems back further than let's say their US equivalent, which would be like would be the whack, right?

SPEAKER_01 2:44

Yes, correct.

SPEAKER_03 2:45

Their history is rooted deep into World War One.

SPEAKER_01 2:51

I did not know. It was one of those groups that it started in World War I, it was disbanded, and then they uh restarted it for World War II. In this case, many members of the ATS were former members of Queen Mary's Army Auxiliary Corps, the QMAC, and they joined the ATS in 1938. The QMAC was formed in 1917, and it was again the same purpose as the ATS, but this was during World War I. Right. And the QMAC was the first time women got to serve in the British Army as things other than nurses. And then it disbanded in 1921 post-World War One. Right. So they restarted it in late 1938. And the ATS's first chief controller was a former QMAC named Dame Helen Gwynne Vaughan, which is a very fancy name.

SPEAKER_03 3:39

Yeah. I didn't look into her, but I Dame Helen Gwynne Vaughn, that is a name. Yeah. You Brits are really, you Brits are just everybody's got a name, everybody's a dame, an OBE. It's like, and we're just over here in the States, like Joe Smith.

SPEAKER_01 3:59

I didn't look into her, but I assume she was of some high status and some aristocratic um connections because she's a dame and has two last names. Yeah. So I'm that just, you know, process of elimination. I'm gonna say that she was very up there. She was up there. She had rank. Very on the chain. The ATS had some really cool, notable members that we will get into. Oh yeah. But for now, we're just gonna go through the basics.

SPEAKER_03 4:28

Yeah, I was very surprised to find that the age limit for women was higher than a lot of. I mean, you were letting in women between the ages of 17 and 43 were allowed to join. So women between the ages of 17 and 43 were allowed to join, but the rules were relaxed for those that were previously part of QMAC. So you could join, if you were previously part of QMAC, you could join if you were up to age 50.

SPEAKER_00 4:56

And I'm assuming that was because they wanted experienced people.

SPEAKER_03 5:00

They probably were taking those experienced women as leaders. Like, you know, um what's the word I'm looking for? Like like a battalion chief or like a platoon leader would officers would be the older women. And then but the 17 is what gets me because 17 is extremely young.

SPEAKER_01 5:18

I mean, 17 is extremely young.

SPEAKER_03 5:20

The US wouldn't even allow anybody under the age of 18.

SPEAKER_01 5:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:24

And if you wanted to, you had to have special written, like parental consent.

SPEAKER_01 5:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:29

In the US.

SPEAKER_01 5:30

Britain was very Britain was very desperate. They had been at war since they've been at war since 39. Yeah. So many men went overseas before, obviously. Yeah. American soldiers went overseas. Um they were growing very desperate. Britain was in it for a long time. Yeah, for strange things such as wood. Like they only had like a stockpiled amount for seven months to build ships and airplane parts. So the men that cut down the trees were no longer able to cut down the trees. So they had the land.

SPEAKER_03 6:05

Yeah, the land grows and the land army.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

And they had the the women's forest corps as well, who um they could volunteer from major 14.

unknown 6:15

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

Yeah. So it wasn't unheard of for young women to volunteer. A lot of these women, however, did not volunteer. After the ATS was granted full military status in 1941, where women were still not allowed to undertake combat roles or go overseas just yet. A lot of these women didn't actually volunteer off their own backs. Conscription happened in England around 1941. In December of 1941, Parliament passed the second National Service Act, which widened the scope of conscription to include women. So it wasn't just men that were drafted. I guess conscriptions are were drafted.

SPEAKER_03 6:56

Yes, conscription is the British equivalent to being drafted.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

All means the same thing.

SPEAKER_03 7:01

We want you basically.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

Yeah. So in 1941, it called up all unmarried, childless, and widows into service, and they had to be between the ages of 20 and 30. If you conscripted into the army, you were entered into the ATS, except for nurses who joined another offshoot called Queen Alexandria's Imperial Military Nursing Service. What a mouthful. I'm not even gonna attempt the acronym. Quaems Quim? No, because I was about to say a really rude word. Quim no, let's not even bother with that. Anyway, that offshoot dates back to the days of Florence Nightingale. That is how old that institution was. So I assume a very well respected and very well-rounded institution to join as a nurse in the army. Technically, they all serve with the British Army, therefore they could wear rank badges and they could be promoted to the equivalent of officer, the equivalent of you know, exo, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_03 8:10

It really does go to show not that you know they begrudgingly let women in, but even so, the difference between the the ATS and the British Army and the WAC and the US Army was that, you know, yes, the WAC was the women's auxiliary army corps first. So there's the WAAC before they were the just the WAC, which was, I assume, the same as the ATS before they were, you know, kind of brought into the military in 41. But Britain was so desperate that they were like, we have to draft women. Whereas the US was like reluctant to even let them volunteer.

SPEAKER_01 8:57

The US was far more begrudging than Britain.

SPEAKER_03 9:00

We really were far more, you know, they really didn't, they they did not want to loosen the reins on women in the US. Absolutely not. It was a fight to get the women to volunteer. It was a fight for the women in the WASP who volunteered to even have military status, but they were trained. They had Air Force training, they were Air Force discharged at the end of their their civilian service, but they weren't military.

SPEAKER_01 9:27

They were given the um it just they were given their discharge the same way any man was given an honorable discharge, but uh they were not militarized. It doesn't make sense.

SPEAKER_03 9:40

She they had official Air Force discharge paperwork, but no, you're not you're not military.

SPEAKER_01 9:43

No, you're not. The reigns were a lot looser in Great Britain, I think purely from desperation.

SPEAKER_03 9:49

Out of desperation, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:51

I don't know how either the US didn't appear that desperate or they were lying to themselves.

SPEAKER_03 10:00

That a lot of the books we've been reading lately, they're talking about how the US um how the US was, you know, not against the war, but no, we're not gonna join. No, we shouldn't get involved. No, we shouldn't get involved. And granted, yes, they were just coming off the back of World War I, coming off the heels of the depression. They're trying to kind of build their economy back up. So, of course, the one thing that I guess the government is gonna say to reassure its civilians and its citizens is no, no, no, no, no. We're focused on coming back as a stronger nation. We're not going to war.

unknown 10:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:42

And I think that by broadcasting that, they may or may not have shot themselves in the foot in a sense, where Japan heard they don't want to get involved, they're not gonna, they're they're out, out, they're laxed, they're too relaxed. Let's hit them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:01

Yeah. And I think that opened that opened.

SPEAKER_03 11:04

And that opened the floodgates, and then we were forced. And then one, and then we reached the point of begrudgingly let women letting women volunteer because well, we kind of have no choice at this point.

SPEAKER_01 11:13

Then the desperation sets in. The desperation sets in. There was no preparation. I feel like Great Britain had some kind of preparation from like 30 30 cents. No, we were not prepared. We were not prepared. So at the outbreak of the war in 39 in Great Britain, 300 ATS members were billeted to France. They were not allowed to take combat roles. Um, so they were recruited as cooks, clerks, and storekeepers. So again, women's work clerical jobs, clerical jobs. They did, however, assist with the evacuation of Dunkirk, and it was a number of ATS members that were some of the last Brits to leave the area.

SPEAKER_03 11:59

That was impressive when I read that, that they were part of the Dunkirk evacuation. That's incredible.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

It was incredible. I completely agree. And then post that in 1943, roles were expanded for women, and they could then work as orderlies, drivers, postal workers, and ammunition inspectors. They could not shoot a weapon, they were not allowed guns, but they could inspect the ammunition. We're gonna get you this close, but yeah, again, I feel like it's the same old tale every single time. Like it, not to be repetitive, but a lot of these stories at like the cusp of it are very repetitive. It's women joins war out of begrudging desperation from her government. She's not allowed to do anything, and then they disregard the work that they ended up doing.

unknown 12:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:56

Taylor's old as time, honestly.

SPEAKER_03 12:58

Somebody make a Disney princess out of these women.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

They wouldn't like it. No, they wouldn't like it. But these women could serve in any theatre of war. They were sent here, there, and everywhere. Honestly, they were sent to Europe. A lot of them were sent to the China, Burma, India Theatre of War, which I would love to get into later on because it's such an unclean.

SPEAKER_03 13:20

That's such an interesting obviously.

SPEAKER_01 13:22

We have the European theatre, we have the Pacific Theatre, and those are the two main things that you hear about. I don't ever really hear or read much about the CBI Theatre of War. So that will be super interesting to get into it.

SPEAKER_03 13:37

Yeah, very um infrequently does it cross cross our paths.

SPEAKER_01 13:42

And it's only if it's vital information, it's if it's like a passing quote or like a passing description.

SPEAKER_03 13:48

It's always like you see the ETO, you see the PTO, and you see North Africa, Italy, North Africa a lot as well. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 13:57

Yes. Rarely do you ever see Charnover, India. So that'll be really interesting to get into. And a lot of these women served over there too.

SPEAKER_03 14:05

They did, yeah. There were 56,000 women that served with anti-aircraft units, but they weren't allowed, once again, not allowed to fire.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

They weren't allowed to fire the guns.

SPEAKER_03 14:15

Imagine. Didn't we just see a video of the Australian Air Force, the Australian Women's Air Force where they were testing the guns on a B-24?

SPEAKER_00 14:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:25

And I watched it like two or three times, and I was like, that's brilliant. They looked, it was so cool. They weren't very high up, they weren't wearing full gear, but oh my god, they were just in the waist of these forts. They were in the waist of these heavy bombers hiring machine guns to test them.

SPEAKER_01 14:50

And the way they did it with such ease as well. Like they looked so flawless doing it.

SPEAKER_03 14:55

They were they had their sleeves rolled up, but her hair was pinned, and she had her headscarf on, and she just looked so flawless behind this gun. And I wonder how many men got into their bombers not realizing that a woman fired that gun first.

SPEAKER_01 15:13

Probably so many of them didn't know, which I find I always find that amazing.

SPEAKER_03 15:19

It tickles me.

SPEAKER_01 15:20

It also tickles me knowing that it was a woman first, and perhaps that they were not exactly happy about it. I think that's just the time, though. I think that's just the way the way things were. I don't think it was uh a lot of it, yes, was a slight against women, but I don't think every single man had, you know, something against a woman.

SPEAKER_03 15:42

No, I don't think every single man. It's just that the the way that history paints the picture, it's that the it's a very wide brush, and it just says men begrudgingly let women join the armed forces. Yes. You know, it's a pretty wide spectrum brush there.

SPEAKER_01 15:57

In terms of expanded roles, this is one thing I found super interesting. The 500 ATS personnel were trained to operate the Cine Theodolite, which is a photographic instrument used for collection of trajectory data. So these women were then given roles in STEM essentially. Before STEM was an acronym or a thing, they were given a chance to operate this machine that only men had undertaken previously. So I found that really, really cool. However, these new roles were not without risk. 717 women were casualties during the war. And the first was Private Nora Cavany, who died while operating a predictor on an anti-aircraft site near Western Shore in Southampton. And she was only 18 at the time of her death, incredibly young. So war is dangerous for everyone, not just the men on the front lines overseas. It is for the even for the women out there and here that serve their country.

SPEAKER_03 17:04

The more we dig into things, the more female casualties we come up with, the more I start to realize, and not start to realize. I mean, I've always, you know, but the more it really hits you that there's so many women that gave their everything, truly gave their everything, and never came home.

SPEAKER_02 17:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:29

And you have to dig to find out who they are.

SPEAKER_01 17:34

Yeah, I wasn't aware of this woman. I she has a small Wikipedia page. We do a big episode where we get into like the basics of things and then we get into the individuals. I would love to get into her story a bit more, depending on if we can find any more apart from the Wikipedia page. Yeah. But yeah, that I feel like we're really Yeah, we have people, we have rabbit holes to fall down. It's we have people in rabbit holes. I'm sure we will find a way to give her a good, a good answer. Absolutely. Absolutely. This next part I found incredibly interesting because not only women of Great Britain were allowed to enlist in the ATS, women of the British Empire as a whole were allowed to enlist. And 5,000 ATS members served in the Middle East, with 80% of the members of that being locally recruited. That's incredible. Which I find amazing. It's something that I did not take into account. I thought it was just people from Great Britain itself, and that I didn't think it was the whole British Empire could then.

SPEAKER_03 18:41

But they were also very, you know, Britain was very Great Britain was very non-discriminatory in terms of who they were taking in. Because even when we go back to the ATA, there were a number of um different ethnicities that served in the ATA. Indian men and women, Australian. I mean, they took whoever wanted to join, could spare their, could spare their time. Exactly. They took whoever wanted to join because A, they were desperate, but also B, they were way less discriminatory and way less stringent, I feel like, than the US.

SPEAKER_01 19:18

Yeah. You know, you say that. You say that, but this next part I found out.

SPEAKER_03 19:25

Um I say that for I say that for a reason because I always go back to the women who flew with the A, the women who flew with the ATA and even the ATA in general, the women who flew had insurance. They were paid equal to men. And then I look at the women from the WASP and I'm like, no insurance. If they died, they passed the hat around. Made the bare minimum.

SPEAKER_01 19:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:47

As civilians. So when I look at it in that from that lens, and I'm like, like, I would have gone to the ATA too.

SPEAKER_01 19:56

I wouldn't have come back and joined the WASP like a lot of the women of the ATA do.

SPEAKER_03 20:01

No, I would have gone with the ATA and I would have stayed with the ATA.

SPEAKER_01 20:04

I'd have stayed my butt there. I would have gone back and forth. Um, but upon you saying that, that it was less discriminatory. Just wait. Hold on. 300 women from the West Indies served in the West Indies Auxiliary Territorial Service. A third of them served in Britain. They were invited over to join, essentially. At first, these women were rejected on grounds of colour. And later, with claims that they'd struggled to adapt to the British climate and the way of life. So a lot of British men in charge thought it's too cold for them. They will not do a good job, which is a terrible excuse. Yes, it's cold, but we get stuff done.

SPEAKER_03 20:46

It was cold in the Ardennes Forest, too. But the 101st got it done.

SPEAKER_01 20:51

Fine, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 20:53

I mean, that's a ballsy thing to say, right? It's cold, it's gonna be hard for them. Cold is cold. Sorry.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

Cold is cold.

SPEAKER_03 21:01

Cold is cold and warm is start using that as an excuse to not go to work anymore. It's cold. I'm a woman, I'm not gonna get anything done.

SPEAKER_01 21:08

I'm but a woman. However, it goes back to the desperation thing again, where in 1943 the demand for extra personnel meant that not only these women were admitted into the service, but also black women were admitted into the service as well. And that I think also you read the stories of how well the 6888 were received in Birmingham. Yeah. And they had no segregation, they could go anywhere they wanted to. At whatever time, they were not banned from anything. I know that they said they had an excellent time in England and in Europe itself, that they were allowed to do things that they were not allowed to do at home. So, yes, it became less discriminatory. I think it began less discriminatory in terms of gender and equal pay. Right. It did not extend to people of other colours. Until 43. So they got there in the end. Unfortunately, isn't that the saying we hear more often than not?

SPEAKER_03 22:08

They got there in the end. But it's true.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

And it it took the desperation of needing more personnel in the ATS that they were like, fuck it, here you go. Right. Whatever. The Newark Experiment. I found this story really interesting and I wanted to put it in. There was a secret trial named the Newark Experiment in 41. And that proved that I really don't like this quote. It gave me the ick so hard. Had proved that women were capable of operating heavy searchlight equipment and they coped in conditions on the often desolate searchlight sites in order to replace men and free them up for overseas battle. I do not like the way it was worded. Alas, that is how it was worded in the findings, that they were capable and they coped in these conditions. As I was reading it and putting it in our notes, I was sat with my teeth like gritted. Like I do not like the way that it's written. No, that's um, I I don't I didn't like that. Not one bit. However, that's the way it was written, and I don't want to reword it and not get it correct.

SPEAKER_03 23:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:29

So they were used to free up male personnel, and they began training in real in Wales. Yes, that's how you say it. Because I can see you staring at the word saying, How do I say that? Rill. Real. Real, like thrill, but without the TH. How would you have said it? Ryle. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:52

Once again, the ugly American, ladies and gentlemen. That would be me.

SPEAKER_01 23:59

I've been to Wales, but I've never been to Rill. Um, I've heard of it, obviously. Um, sounds like a real thrill. We're keeping that in for um, you know who's gonna appreciate that? Josh from Foxhole. Oh you will appreciate me saying that you're side-eyeing the word, how do I say real? And then we're keeping that joke in. Oh my gosh. Josh mate, that's for you. Have have a laugh. Have a pause.

SPEAKER_04 24:28

Have a laugh on us, Josh.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

There you go. But they were first employed in searchlight troop headquarters in July of 1942. The 26th Searchlight Regiment became the first mixed regiment with seven ATS women troops posted to it. So they had a mix of men and women. If I I'm guessing a few men, enough men in the British Army stayed put, did not go overseas, and I don't think it was anything but to train. Yeah, to train these women who were capable and coped. The wording is I don't like it.

SPEAKER_03 25:08

No, the wording is terrible. But the wording is not ours.

SPEAKER_01 25:11

So the wording is not ours. They then formed the All Women 301 Battery. So after being trained by these men, they then all came together and they formed the 301 Battery. And by August of 43, this compromised of 1500 women. What an achievement to go from a mixed regiment to 1500 women. I hope their tagline was we are coping and we are capable. Oh my god, these poor women. We can tell that this has been itching in my brain.

SPEAKER_03 25:46

It has. Yeah. You guys can't see her face, but I can see her face, and she's getting a little twitchy over there. The eye is the eye is the eye is going.

SPEAKER_01 25:55

I know we have mentioned conscription a couple times in the National Service Act. I really wanted to get into that really quickly and tell people what it was. Because yes, while it was the same as being drafted, obviously women were not drafted over here. No.

SPEAKER_03 26:13

God forbid they draft the American women.

SPEAKER_01 26:16

Jeez, I know. They didn't, as long as they didn't volunteer, geez, stay in the kitchen. As we mentioned, Parliament passed the second act of the National Service Act and it called upon unmarried, childless, and widowed women between the ages of 20 and 30. As personnel needs were getting bigger, married women were called up later, but not those who were pregnant or who had young children. I believe under the age of 10 was the benchmark. If you had a child under the age of 10, you were not to be included in this in the conscription. These women had a choice of what they could join, which I found incredibly interesting. So they could join the ATS, they could join the Rens, they could join the WAF, or they could join the Transport Service. And options later expanded into the land army.

SPEAKER_03 27:06

But that's the same. I mean, they were yes, they were drafted, whereas our girls just went out and volunteered and they were like, I'm gonna join the, I'm gonna join the waves, I'm gonna join the WAC, you know, the spars. They could still pick, but they were of their own sound mind to say, I'm volunteering, I'm picking the Navy, I'm picking the army, or the, you know, yeah. Whereas these women were we're taking you, but here are your options.

SPEAKER_01 27:34

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 27:35

We're taking you, but here are your options.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

I like how even though they had to join, they were given an option.

SPEAKER_03 27:43

They were given an option, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:45

So it wasn't as like closed in as you hear conscription, you hear being drafted, you're like, oh god.

SPEAKER_03 27:51

No, you hear that word and it freaks you out a little bit, I would imagine.

SPEAKER_00 27:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

A lot of women objected to conscription, which is not surprising. A third of people on the on something called the conscientious objectorist were women. But despite this, by 43, nine out of ten women were taking an active part in the war effort in Great Britain. And this was in terms of conscription, it was in terms of home front work. Right. I feel like they counted active part in the war effort as something as simple as you're rationing correctly.

SPEAKER_03 28:26

Even going to the I mean, like they had Rosies, Rosies in Britain, they just weren't called Rosies, they were factory workers.

SPEAKER_01 28:33

I mean, I know they were factory workers, but they had different names for them. There was lumber gills and there was something else. Yeah, there was Rosies, the equivalent of an active part in the war, or if it could mean being enlisted, you know, rationing correctly.

SPEAKER_03 28:50

Victory Garden. I mean, although I don't know, were victory gardens a very big thing in the Great Britain?

SPEAKER_01 29:00

Yes, they were, but they were not labeled victory gardens. They weren't labeled, they were just we are out of food, grow your own food as a necessity. Whereas obviously Victory Gardens here in the US began as a way to send food to England. It was bundles for Britain. Right. That's that's what that was for. But then when the US joined the war in 41, I believe we all began swapping things.

SPEAKER_03 29:27

Yeah. Like the Lend Lease Act kind of just kind of fell by the wayside, and it was just, hey, you need this, you need this, let's trade.

SPEAKER_01 29:34

Yeah, trading a lot happened, trading happened a lot, from what I from what I know. Um, but it was never labeled a victory garden. We you can tell even from as early as World War One and World War II that Brits are not gung ho about anything. It there was never they have like really cool propaganda posters and like we need you stuff, and women wear this face cream for your man to think you smell like an ice cream cone, you know, stuff like that.

SPEAKER_03 30:03

Oh, yard Yardley's, right? Is that the British comedy company?

SPEAKER_01 30:06

Yardley's it's never victory, it's never the yeah. I again another thing I were always very nonchalant, yeah. Very serious people.

SPEAKER_03 30:20

I'm currently reading Elizabeth Richardson's book, The Red Cross, and she talks in one of her letters about how um the the Brits, you know, they just keep going on about their day. They go to the theater, they do this, they do that, because they they just, you know, she quoted it in such a way that she was like, you know, they they figure if death is going to find them or a buzz bomb or a doodle bug is gonna find them, it'll sooner find them at the theater doing something that they love, whereas they're just waiting it out at home.

SPEAKER_01 30:50

Yeah, Brits kind of just got on with it. They just got on with it.

SPEAKER_03 30:54

And at that point, it's 44 now, she's over there and it's 1944. At this point, they're at the point where they're like, Yeah, we just need to get on with it. We've been in this for so long. Carry on, keep calm and carry on. Whereas she was complaining that America had absolutely a minimal grasp on what was actually happening and what it was actually like. I agree with that completely.

SPEAKER_01 31:18

I also agree with that. Um, we were far removed.

SPEAKER_03 31:21

We were far removed from it, location-wise, far removed from it.

SPEAKER_01 31:25

Yeah, in many ways. And I feel like uh politically it was ignored. I feel like uh the British government was telling the US that this is gonna happen, you must prepare. And the US government was just not my problem. No, we will help you, but this is not my problem.

SPEAKER_03 31:44

Right, we'll help you, but we're not inviting it to our doorstep. Agreed, and then it showed up uninvited doorstep, very uninvited, it showed up very uninvited on our doorstep, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:54

Which is, I assume, was a great big shock. But um, we're uh Brits are a very serious people, we're very nonchalant, we're very I would assume it was a great big shock.

SPEAKER_03 32:03

Unfortunately, there's nobody left in my family that we can ask.

SPEAKER_01 32:06

Yeah, um, there was obviously there was the V for Victory, and there's the famous pictures of Churchill with a big fat cigar in his mouth. Oh, yeah, uh doing the V for the hand, yeah, the hand thing. Um, but it wasn't like victory garden, it wasn't you know, wearing lipstick for it was a British woman's just wearing lipstick, yeah. Um I wish I wish we had been better. I know that by 44 everyone's exhausted their doorstep since 39 physically, and prior to that, whispers of it could imagine.

SPEAKER_03 32:46

I mean, they held on with their they dug in and held on. I mean, so you have to give them credit for sure for for resiliency. They were the only the only ones that he couldn't yeah, Hitler couldn't get in.

SPEAKER_01 33:03

No, never, never could properly invade. Um I think it's a testament to the people protecting themselves, absolutely. Absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 33:12

I always go back to that quote where I've seen it shared a number of times on on Instagram, but it's Hitler built a fortress around Europe, but he forgot to put a roof on it.

SPEAKER_01 33:24

Yeah, he left it wide open, he didn't complete the job.

SPEAKER_03 33:28

No, he thought he did, he thought he could, which is why I think that the the the Great Britain really was able to dig in and hold on.

SPEAKER_01 33:38

Yes, absolutely. By the E Day and the demobilization of British Armed Forces, there were 190,000 members of the ATS, and by war's official end, 250,000 women had served in the ATS in some capacity.

SPEAKER_03 33:53

That's a large number of women. That is that is a lot of number of women.

SPEAKER_01 33:58

From what I can gather, a lot of them did not they stayed for their conscription service and then they were out. Yeah. It seems to be that only the women from World War I who were with the Queen Mary auxiliary. Yeah. It seemed they stayed for the long haul from they were career military, yeah, all the way through. And I feel like it proved that a woman could do anything a man could do. Again, it's the same theme of everything we talk about is that a woman can do it and sometimes better. And these skills that they gained were used for when the NHS was born. These women had the skills to be able to be employed by the NHS and really begin an excellent service. And then in 1949, the ATS was absorbed and they formed the Women's Royal Army Corps, which was the RAC. And again, women women were taken seriously only after a time of trouble, only after a time of war. They were not taken seriously previously too. Because of course they weren't. Deep sigh I have deep sigh, utter shock. I'm excited to get into like the notable members of the ATS. One of them is very commonly known. The other one, not so much. So this I didn't know this person was, I did not know this woman was in the ATS. Winston Churchill's daughter. I did not know that until we started researching.

SPEAKER_03 35:26

Um I guess if your father is Winston Churchill and you know, you can't really A, hide from conscription, B, your name is pretty pretty big, and I'm assuming people would want to know, well, what are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 35:41

I know that she was in the ATS and the British Red Cross, and she did work with the Women's Voluntary Service for a number of years before joining the ATS. Oh, so she was very active in just wartime service in general, yeah. I'm not sure how accurate this was, but do you recall in SAS Rogue Heroes in season one where they take Churchill's son with them on that mission where they all have to put they've all got the big silly beards and the that's Churchill's son? I'm not entirely sure of the accuracy. It's funny, I don't want to burst my bubble on that. I remember that. Those big stupid beards, the glued-on be they could have just had them grow a beard. But they glued these. I'm really upset that we didn't go through that when we interviewed Karin Silver. I'm upset we didn't talk about those atrocious glue.

SPEAKER_03 36:39

Well, he was in that scene, wasn't he?

SPEAKER_01 36:41

With the Mary's been a minute since I've watched yes, it's been a minute since I've watched season one. Mary Churchill Solmes served in the ATS. Um, and like you said, she volunteered quite a bit during the war. She worked at the Red Cross and she worked with the Women's Voluntary Service from 39 to 41. And following this, she joined the ATS. She really got stuck in, truly. She served in London, Belgium, and Germany, all in mixed anti-aircraft batteries.

SPEAKER_03 37:10

That's incredible.

SPEAKER_01 37:11

And she reached, yeah, she reached the rank of junior commander, which is the equivalent of officer. And she also accompanied her father on many trips while she was while she was serving with the ATS. She served as his aide-de-camp on overseas travels. Um most notably his post-war trip to Potsdam, where he met with Stalin and Harry Truman. And she was awarded an MB for her meritorious military service in 45. That's amazing. She did quite a bit. She did.

SPEAKER_00 37:40

She did quite a bit.

SPEAKER_03 37:41

She really lived up to the name Churchill.

SPEAKER_01 37:43

Yeah. I'm not entirely sure if it was necessary for her to deal with that, but the fact that she found it within herself to volunteer that much in multiple branches and help the war effort that much, despite her place of status. Yeah. Yes, and despite her place in the hierarchy in terms of the country, um, very impressive. The second notable person, I feel like, is obviously you are gonna, if you hear the ATS, you are gonna know this. Princess Elizabeth, later Queen Elizabeth II, she enlisted after she turned 18 and 44. So while the age was 17, she could have joined prior. I believe she probably had to have special permissions from her father, which would make sense. I know her sister, Princess Margaret, was in the Girl Scouts. She was obviously younger. So around the time that Elizabeth is enlisting in the ATS, I believe Margaret is 14.

SPEAKER_03 38:43

Right.

SPEAKER_01 38:43

So she's too she's too young to too in the military. She is in the Girl Scouts, though, and they did a great amount for the war effort. I believe they took part in the bundles, like they were collecting the bundles.

SPEAKER_03 38:57

I believe the same, the same of the Girl Scouts in the US as well, yes.

SPEAKER_01 39:01

And I think that's how the swap started to happen. However, despite needing the special permission, her father, King George, made sure that Elizabeth was not given a special rank or special treatment during her time of enlistment. So he did not let her enter in as a junior commander, he did not let her flaunt her status around. He wanted her to enlist as a civilian wood. He wanted her to enlist as Elizabeth Regina. So she joined as a second Subaltern and was later promoted to junior commander.

SPEAKER_03 39:37

I would have said Subalton correctly.

SPEAKER_01 39:40

No, I know, but I have to remind myself to say it correctly because I've watched that episode so many times that my brain instantly goes.

SPEAKER_03 39:50

I was just watching it this morning. I was laying in bed watching it. My brain goes to my brain automatically goes to Anthony Boyle wrapped in a towel wearing just his crush hat. What's that gable tracing? Oops. What's that gable?

SPEAKER_04 40:11

What is that gable?

SPEAKER_03 40:13

But no, that's where my brain goes to him kind of pacing around going, subaltern.

SPEAKER_01 40:19

He's opening that letter and he's just mumbling to himself.

SPEAKER_03 40:23

It's very cross-coded. It's very Harry Crosby coded.

SPEAKER_01 40:27

Yeah how to say it, which is why I made that face.

SPEAKER_03 40:30

Oh, I thought you you were looking at me, and I'm like, I would have said it correctly.

SPEAKER_01 40:34

I know how to say it. I'm making my brain um say it properly. Because again, all I can see is Cros mumbling the word subaltern to himself, opening that letter. Um so she was promoted to junior commander.

SPEAKER_03 40:48

But she earned it, not just because she was the princess.

SPEAKER_01 40:52

Yes, she trained as a mechanic in 1945, and she took a driving and maintenance course at Aldershot. Aldershot is in Hampshire, and the newspapers dubbed her Princess Auto Mechanic.

SPEAKER_03 41:08

Very important I love the pictures of her changing the tires, and yeah, she looks so happy in her service. So free. So free, no, you know, she's not under any kind of royal pressure. I just I think that her military service kind of shaped her in a way that she ruled as queen.

SPEAKER_01 41:32

She knew that by serving her country, she was already serving her country. Does that make sense? By serving her country in the war effort, she knew it was coming. Yeah, she knew eventually that she would be queen.

SPEAKER_03 41:45

Not as young as she became queen, but yes, eventually she would become queen.

SPEAKER_01 41:50

So she serves her country prior to then serving her country. Correct.

SPEAKER_03 41:55

Is that making sense? She was it was almost like you know, preparation. She really was, she was preparing for it. But I love the photos of her changing the tires and bent over the hood of the trucks. Yeah. And where her parents are there, the king and queen are there inspecting, and she's just ready for inspection, and they're smiling at her, trying not to be like so proud.

SPEAKER_01 42:20

But yeah, it's really very it's really very funny that tradition carried on because there were multiple times when Harry and William were in the army and the queen came to inspect them. And there's one picture of her and Harry, which I find so funny, where she's poked him and he's trying not to laugh. And the picture is she's giggling. Yes. Even though she cannot treat him as her grandson at that moment, she has poked him in the rib, and does he's like trying not to giggle, and she's giggling at him. It's it's a great picture.

SPEAKER_03 42:55

Princess Anna.

SPEAKER_01 42:55

Did she serve as well in the military? Yes, all the children did, all of them did, all of her children did, and the grand William and Harry, I know for sure. Definitely.

SPEAKER_03 43:06

Oh no, William and Harry, I know for sure.

SPEAKER_01 43:08

Don't think Eugenie did. I don't think Beatrice did. I think just the the male um. At that point, yeah, correct me on that.

SPEAKER_03 43:17

I there's an interview, and I forget if it's with William or with Harry. They were on, they were on their base, they were serving. It's Harry. It's Harry, and some kind of alert alarm, and he has to he rips the microphone off his uniform and he runs. And it's so it was so impressive to see it as an American, because I'm like, how many of our would as an American? I think that the royal family is very impressive in the sense that oh my god, this is just this magnificent kind of hierarchy. I know you have certain feelings on it. Uh yes, but just because I'm you grew up you're Irish, even though you could. Up in the UK, you're Irish. Like, I and I there's no slide. Listen, I grew up in America, I'm Italian.

SPEAKER_01 44:06

I mean, there you go. There you go. I from what I remember with that interview, I remember I watched it live because obviously it was it was Prince Harry. You can see him listening to the interviewer, but you can also see his eyes. He's watching what's going on around him. Yes. He can hear the commotion, hears the alarm, and someone pats him on there is no communication, like oral communication. Someone pats him and he rips it off and he runs. Yes. So 2013.

SPEAKER_03 44:34

So okay. So yeah, we were. I mean, I was older at that point, 2013. I was out of college, I was yeah, working already. So I remember it very vividly. Yeah. But yeah, I was Americans are always very enamored with the royal family, I feel like. And it's because we don't have that here. It doesn't exist.

SPEAKER_01 44:56

Yes. Yeah. I uh yes, again, I have the UK.

SPEAKER_03 45:00

You guys, you have the you have the you have the queen or the king, and then you have the prime minister. We just have the present.

SPEAKER_01 45:06

I love the scene in the crown where I believe her and Philip are on honeymoon in the in the safari in Africa.

SPEAKER_03 45:12

And she's telling them how to fix the gene.

SPEAKER_01 45:14

And she says, Move over. I was a mechanic in the war, and they're like, We can't fix it. And they're pouring water into it because it's overheating. And she's like, What are you doing? Move. Tells all these men to get out the way.

SPEAKER_03 45:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:27

Um, and she fixes it. And she's I remember she slams it shut and she goes, There you go. And Philip's looking at her like hard eye is like Bugs Bunny. Oh, yeah. It's really nice.

SPEAKER_03 45:39

A picture of her all as an older woman. This is not from the crown, but as an older woman, she's behind the wheel of her Range Rover or her Land Rover, and she's got her little scarf. And it almost looks like she could barely look over the steering wheel, but she's driving that truck. And I'm like, yeah, this woman was just she was just so damn cute.

SPEAKER_01 45:57

She was so cute, and um, she my favorite video of her is where they're at I don't know what event it is, but um cows! She sees cows and she yells cows. Yes, she's so cute. She didn't go overseas, she spent most of her service at training facilities. So while her father made sure she was not given a special rank or special treatment, I don't believe he was gonna let her go overseas too, like in too far into the war combat. But she still was the face of the ATS, and I am very sure it encouraged a lot of young women to also pick the ATS during construction so that they could be with Elizabeth. During her life, she was known to diagnose and repair faulty engines. So she was telling everyone off if they had if they had bad bad cars. Um but no, I I found this so fun. I love getting into stuff that I should have learned at school. It's such a shame that they don't teach you for you.

SPEAKER_03 47:04

I mean, like this, we would have never learned this in the States. No, you it always surprises me. Like war was on your damn door, the war was on your country's damn doorstep.

SPEAKER_01 47:17

And I learned about rationing and the blitz and evacuation, and that is the most I can recall.

SPEAKER_03 47:25

We learned about the Holocaust.

SPEAKER_01 47:28

We also learned that in high school, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:30

And Pearl Harbor, you learn about the Holocaust, you learn about Pearl Harbor, get Pearl Harbor, very, very minimal. I remember one year in school, the teacher was like, if somebody can come in tomorrow and tell me what the importance of the date is, and it was December 7th.

SPEAKER_00 47:43

Right.

SPEAKER_03 47:43

If somebody can come in tomorrow and tell me what the importance of the date is, um, there was like extra credit or bonus or something like that. So I'd gone home. I remember going home that night and I was like, and I was young, right? So at this point, young enough, Band of Brothers isn't even out yet. Yeah, there is no reason that I should be hovering watching my dad watch Patton or anything like that. Like I was Patton. That is his jam, I swear. Um, at this point, like I'm saying, like I used everybody knows I've said it a thousand times, I know World War II and my dad, this and that. I'm too young for it at this point, right? Right. Maybe I'm 11, maybe not even 11, maybe I'm pushing 10. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 48:23

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:24

So I went home and I'm like, what is the importance of December 7th? And my dad was like, it's Pearl Harbor Day. And I said, Well, what's that? Teacher asked, you know, if somebody come in tomorrow and what's the importance, so he said, Oh, it's Pearl Harbor Day, a day that will live in infamy. And I went in the next day, and the teacher was like, Did anybody find out what the importance of? And I raised my hand and I said, It's, you know, a day which will live in infamy. It's Pearl Harbor Day. And that was kind of where we learned a little bit about Pearl Harbor. But we were young, so they're not gonna get very gritty with it. They're not gonna give you the death count, they're not gonna give you the casualty list. You're not gonna get, you know, you know, you learn about the USS Arizona, you learn that it was Japan that bombed the United States. But then, like you, I I remember very clearly at that point, kids in school, kids in school are very ruthless. Any Asian kid in the class at that point, they were like, you bombed our country. The other kids were like, You bombed our country. And it's like they they didn't know anything. And this is why it's really it's like you don't teach it properly, teach it properly, or don't teach it at all.

SPEAKER_00 49:39

Agreed.

SPEAKER_03 49:40

And a lot and I very clearly remember a lot of the Asian kids being like, Why are they being bullied?

SPEAKER_01 49:45

But yeah, kids were bullied kicked on for something they didn't for something that happened at that point, you know, 60 years ago, 50 years ago. Yeah, it's insane, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 49:55

It's nuts to me, but but kids are ruthless.

SPEAKER_01 49:59

I I really I really enjoyed learning about this, and I'm really happy to share it with everyone again.

SPEAKER_03 50:05

This was really, really great. I was very happy to learn it. I was very happy to research it.

SPEAKER_01 50:10

It helps people, you know, again, fall down the same rabbit holes as us, find even more cool people that that served with the ATS. Um, I'd love to get into more in-depth the women that we mentioned, Nora Cavany. I'd love to do an episode. I would love to learn more about Nora Cabney. I'd love to do an episode on conscription as a whole. Like this opened so many, again, it unraveled so many things that we could get into later dates. And I love episodes like this where we focus on one thing, and then as we are telling our listeners the information and what we learned, we're like, oh, we could go into this, we could get into this, we could make episodes about this. So um, I found it really fun. Um, and I really hope that everyone enjoyed it. I enjoyed it, I had a great time.

SPEAKER_03 51:00

I had a wonderful time.

SPEAKER_01 51:01

Thank you everyone for listening.

SPEAKER_03 51:03

Yeah, thanks everybody for hanging out with us, for listening. We had a great time.

SPEAKER_01 51:07

Really hope you enjoyed it. Any questions, feel free to reach out and we'll try our best to answer again if we got anything wrong.

SPEAKER_03 51:16

Any suggestions, too. You know, if you know something about the ACS, if you know something, shoot us a message.

SPEAKER_00 51:23

Yeah, do that. That'd be really cool.

SPEAKER_03 51:24

Shoot us a message, shoot us an email. I mean, we're not at this point. You guys know we're not hoity-toity about our information. If we get something wrong, we want to correct ourselves. If we missed something, we want to include it.

SPEAKER_00 51:37

Agreed.

SPEAKER_03 51:38

You know, absolutely. We compensate in coffee and donuts, so just you know, come hang out with us.

SPEAKER_01 51:43

Yeah. Thanks again, everyone. Thanks, everybody. Bye. Bye.