Church is messy. Friendships are hard to find. Life in a fishbowl is awkward. But what if…it’s worth it? Such a great convo with Stephanie, Jessica, and Jenna about their new book Pastors’ Wives Tell All!
Whether you're a pastors' wife, or a female pastor yourself, living life in a fishbowl can be hard. We talk about parenting, marriage, and finding friends when you're in church ministry.
Things mentioned in the Podcast:
Pastors’ Wives Tell All: Pre-order Here
Get Your Preorder Bonuses
Find out everything that’s happening at their website
Follow Pastors’ Wives Tell All on Instagram
Join Sheila at Bare Marriage.com!
Check out her books:
And she has an Orgasm Course and a Libido course too!
Check out all her courses, FREE resources, books, and so much more at Sheila's LinkTree.
Church is messy. Friendships are hard to find. Life in a fishbowl is awkward. But what if…it’s worth it? Such a great convo with Stephanie, Jessica, and Jenna about their new book Pastors’ Wives Tell All!
Whether you're a pastors' wife, or a female pastor yourself, living life in a fishbowl can be hard. We talk about parenting, marriage, and finding friends when you're in church ministry.
Things mentioned in the Podcast:
Pastors’ Wives Tell All: Pre-order Here
Get Your Preorder Bonuses
Find out everything that’s happening at their website
Follow Pastors’ Wives Tell All on Instagram
Join Sheila at Bare Marriage.com!
Check out her books:
And she has an Orgasm Course and a Libido course too!
Check out all her courses, FREE resources, books, and so much more at Sheila's LinkTree.
Sheila: I am so thrilled to have on The Bare Marriage Podcast some people I’ve never met in real life, but we have met online so many times. This is Stephanie, Jessica, and Jenna from Pastors’ Wives Tell All. Hi, guys.
All: Hi.
Stephanie: We are stoked to be here.
Jessica: Yes, we are. We love talking with you, Sheila.
Sheila: Yeah, I feel like you’re on the other side of the mic this time. Usually I’m talking on your podcast.
Jenna: Yeah.
Sheila: So this is fun. We’re here to celebrate because next week you guys have a huge milestone. So your new book launches on Monday I think, Pastors’ Wives Tell All. I can never remember subtitles. I don’t even remember my own subtitle so your book is Pastors’ Wives Tell All. What is your subtitle?
Stephanie: Navigating real church life with honesty and humor.
Sheila: I love that. You guys, anyone who follows you guys on Instagram, you know you’re always there. You’re dancing. You’re talking, and you’re keeping it real. You’re really good friends in real life.
Jenna: Yes.
Jessica: We are.
Stephanie: The best.
Jenna: We live right around the corner from each other.
Stephanie: Yeah, I could literally jog to their house.
Jessica: And we’re at different churches too, different denominations, all the things.
Sheila: Which is so super cool. I got a chance to read an early copy of your book so thank you for that and got to endorse it. I really appreciate that honor. I thought as I was reading through it I saw some themes that I just knew would resonate with my listeners and those are the ideas of how can we stay authentic when we’re in a culture which is really rewarding inauthenticity and can make you quite sad and feel like you’re trapped? But that sounds depressing, and the book isn’t depressing. It’s actually quite funny, but I think that’s just something a lot of us struggle with.
Jessica: Yeah, for sure. One hundred percent. Authenticity is so hard, and I think that’s one of the things that we love to talk about is to be authentic, to be yourself is really the thing that we need to be because that’s who Christ created us to be. But you can’t be authentic until you learn who your identity lies in, and that’s so hard for people to learn. I mean I’ll be honest I didn’t learn that in my twenties. It was my thirties before I could kind of walk in my own skin and know who God called me to be, but then to share and be authentic in my friendships and to be vulnerable. That’s very hard for me to do. To be vulnerable with the people of our church and our friends and even my husband on occasion. To really bare all and let them know.
Stephanie: Pun intended. Bare.
Sheila: It is hard to be vulnerable and to be authentic when you live in a fishbowl.
Jenna and Jessica: Yeah.
Sheila: And that’s what happens to pastors’ wives, but it doesn’t only happen to pastors’ wives. I think a lot of us feel that way for different reasons, and I think that’s what people will really relate to in your book. Of course, because I am who I am, I want to focus on certain chapters more than others in our conversation. The one about how pastors’ wives get headaches too I thought was great--or fake headaches too.
Stephanie: You’re welcome.
Sheila: You open that chapter with I think just some real honesty about some of the awful ways that a lot of us were taught about sex. Stephanie, tell me about culottes.
Stephanie: Oh, heavens. Yes, I grew up in a church--and it wasn’t like this in my home which is funny. It was just at the church and the church activities and my Christian school I went to. Girls and modesty was probably one of the top topics. Your body was something that you had to hide. It could be evil. It could be used as a weapon. It’s this awful thing, and that’s what I grew up hearing over and over and over again. We would walk around in these parachute pants is what I felt like, but they weren’t pants. They just came like below your knee and were awkwardly like flapping everywhere as you walked. It was a whole awkward situation. I even had to swim in them a couple times.
Sheila: Oh, my word.
Stephanie: And there were no guys there. It was all girls, and we were told we had to wear the culottes and a T-shirt to swim.
Jenna: I feel like--
Sheila: Okay, can I just say as the mother of two lifeguards how dangerous that is?
Jessica: Yes.
Stephanie: Yep.
Sheila: Like that is seriously dangerous. We should never--you’re not supposed to swim in anything that is not a bathing suit because it--yeah, just not good. Not good at all.
Stephanie: Oh, 100%, but the safety didn’t matter. What mattered is we needed to protect the guys and their eyes and what they’re seeing, and we could cause them to fall. That put a lot of shame on us which is why I resonate so much with you, Sheila, and what you’re doing and your work because I was left with a lot of distorted views and thinking. It took a long time for me to break free, and I’m still breaking free from some of it. There are times I’m still going right back into that weird, “Oh gosh, is this okay?” or, “I’m feeling awkward with my husband,” and it shouldn’t be that way. But I know where it came from. I know the roots. I look back, and I go it’s those darn culottes. What the heck?
Sheila: Okay, Jessica, tell me about the Oreo.
Jessica: Oh, gosh.
Sheila: This is disgusting so everybody listening--
Jessica: I still like Oreos.
Jenna: I’m shocked that this actually happens.
Jessica: Yeah, so when I was in middle school, I had a teacher that was trying to talk about just virginity and abstinence and all of that and being used and calling it being used. I remember him opening up an Oreo and talking about like, “This is going to be an example. I’m going to pass this Oreo to the first person and let them bite or lick the icing, and then you’re going to pass it to the next person.” Of course, only one or two in, we were like, “Ew, we don’t want to do this.” He’s like, “That’s what it’s like being used. No one will want you. You are tainted. You have been used.” So it was just like oh, gosh, but I remember thinking back going man, so many people that do have sex before marriage and find Jesus or knew that they made a mistake, they’re going to go with that all the way to their marriage bed, thinking that no one’s going to want to be with them. Also we would always hear you’re taking all of those people that you’ve slept with or did the things with, you’re taking them to your marriage bed. That was something that I was taught.
Stephanie: Which is so warped when you think about it.
Jessica: Yeah, but it was just--it was so gross, but it did. It hit me, and I was like I’m not going to do any of that. I don’t want to be used. I don’t want to take people to my marriage bed other than my husband. So many things like that that’s just--I know there was good intentions. He learned it from somebody else which then he taught it to us, but it was just gross and really gross. Yeah, I can’t get it out of my head.
Sheila: I think none of us will ever look at Oreos again the same way.
Jessica: You’re welcome.
Sheila: That is awful. Jenna was making this point in the book--and I love how in the book you all tell your own stories--but to sum it all up, you were just taught that boys were sexual in a way that girls aren’t.
Stephanie: Correct.
Jenna: Yeah.
Stephanie: That I wasn’t supposed to be actually, like that was weird or wrong.
Jessica: Which is so wrong.
Jenna: We were the gatekeepers for not just our own virginity but for theirs too. As if we could cause them to not stumble or have these thoughts, you know what I mean?
Sheila: Right.
Jenna: You go to youth camp, and all the boys were like playing basketball with their shirts off, all sweaty, and then the girls were told, “Cover up. Wear a one-piece bathing suit, but then also put shorts and a T-shirt over it,” as if we were going to cause them to stumble by wearing--by not wearing a T-shirt.
Jessica: Because our belly buttons are so sexy.
Jenna: So sexy, and our shoulders.
Sheila: But all of this--we’ve talked about this a lot on the podcast, when you get these messages when you’re 12, 13, 14, 15, it carries with you into your marriage. How are you supposed to put those things behind you? I think one of the interesting things about pastors’ wives--and you can correct me if I’m wrong--but a lot of pastors’ wives tend to come from a lot of the super conservative--like you get a lot of the super conservative influence because if you’re going to marry a pastor, chances are you went to Bible college or seminary or you were in the places where future pastors hung out so that does tend to be conservative spaces. You often went to the youth rallies, to these summer camps. I know growing up I heard the really toxic messages, not from my church. It was from the extra stuff that we did, like those youth rallies.
Stephanie: That’s so true.
Sheila: The huge youth rallies, the huge summer camps so it was the kids who were the most involved. You’re the kids who were the most Christian, the most--I don’t mean the most Christian as had the biggest faith but like the ones that were always--
Jenna: Always in church.
Sheila: They tended to be the ones that got these messages more than any others, and then you guys ended up marrying pastors.
Jessica: Yeah, couldn’t get away from it.
Stephanie: I’m going to be--I was just going to say I’m going to be honest and even early in the youth ministry days, we had little purity talks and things because that’s what I was taught that you tell these girls, and that’s what you do. I didn’t realize at the time that any guilt I felt or shame, and I honestly didn’t have sex before marriage, but I felt like I’d gone too far. That’s affecting me now, but really that was shame that shouldn’t have been there because I was free from that. God had saved me from that, but I was still living in guilt and then telling them, “Well, you’re going to have this--you’re going to have guilt and shame if you do this.” I’m trying to scare them just like it was done to me, and I hate that I was like that in my young twenties before I knew better. It’s a problem.
Sheila: I did it too. I did it too. I still regret a couple of the newspaper columns in my local area, but when you know better, you do better, right?
Stephanie and Jessica: Exactly.
Jenna: Yeah.
Sheila: A lot of us--we just grew up with this, and we’re victims of it. So I have a special issue with the way that the churches treat pastors and their wives around sex. This may be a commonality that comes up a lot in this podcast episode, but why is it that the church expects the pastor and the pastor’s wife to talk about sex and to be sex experts? Because I see that a lot where--I’ve seen that in so many churches where--and now the pastor’s wife is going to talk to us about how to be really--support our husbands sexually. It’s like do you guys ever just feel awkward?
Jessica: I was going to say thank goodness our church is not like that.
Sheila: Oh, thank goodness, yes.
Jessica: I don’t think any of ours are?
Stephanie: No, what we’re in now is very--all of us are in much healthier places, much healthier churches that aren’t doing those same things that we grew up with, but I know exactly what you’re talking about because I have been there.
Jessica: Yes, and that’s one of the things I was going to say. I think that we have to be vulnerable. It is the hardest thing to be vulnerable about when you are a pastor and a pastor’s wife. But I think there are moments where you can share things like that especially when my husband and I do a lot of marriage counseling and talking with women and men. Yeah, that conversation comes up a lot or before they get married there is a talk where we talk about that and share. So I think that--I don’t think that should be put on our shoulders because we are just like you. We have our struggles, and we have our great moments. That’s the same with our marriages. We don’t have perfect marriages. Just let everyone else out there know, our marriages are not perfect. They are a work in progress, and we have to try every day to love that person and to not be selfish. That goes into the marriage bed as well, and so yeah, I think that those talks should come from vulnerable conversations and should come from speakers like Sheila. Bring Sheila in. Bring in (inaudible) to talk to your churches. If the pastor’s wife wants to talk about it, then, of course. Some feel very called to talk about that, then do what you’re passionate about. But don’t put that pressure on the pastor and the wife to be the only ones carrying that load.
Stephanie: But I think where the pressure comes from is--okay, the pastor and his wife--the pastor preaches a lot on verses about marriage, about family. It comes up naturally in Scripture. Even if you’re going verse by verse, you’re going to come to these Scriptures about marriage and family. So instantly as these attenders--church attenders hear their pastor talking about marriage, they think, “Oh, I bet he is just the perfect husband. He has all the answers. He knows all the things,” which therefore his wife must be the best wife ever. Usually, you know, your husband is trying to talk you up a little bit, the good things from the stage or a lot of men are doing that, and they’re not talking about the hard things. They’re not being completely vulnerable and saying, “Hey, you know, my wife and I--we got in a fight the other night.” Now ours are pretty good about doing that now.
Jenna: Yeah.
Stephanie: And just saying, “We all sin. We all fall. We all struggle,” and the problem has started at the top because when we share those things, we’re not vulnerable. We’re not authentic if I can say that word. Then it bleeds over into their thinking, “Wow, they must just really have it all together. I need to ask the all the questions about all things marriage.”
Jessica: Yeah, they just think we’re experts.
Stephanie: We’re not.
Jenna: We’re not experts.
Jessica: We’re not. We struggle just like you--
Stephanie: We’ll point you to a good therapist.
Jessica: --in all areas.
Jenna: There you go.
Sheila: I think that that’s so important to understand because I’ve seen these things happen. I mean I get sent them all the time, you know, a pastor and his wife give a sex talk, and it’s horrible. It’s like but we should never put pastors and their wives in that situation where that’s expected. I just think that’s a lot, and I’ve also been in situations where you’re in a women’s Bible study or you’re in a women’s event and a topic comes up, and there’s some discussion as to which way is the right way. Everyone turns to the pastor’s wife to make the final decision, to pronounce judgment as to what is right. So you are expected to be experts in a lot of things when you’re really not necessarily. I mean you all have your areas of expertise. Everybody does. Everybody has like a few areas where, yes, I know an awful lot about this. But none of us is experts on everything.
Jessica: Right.
Sheila: And I think’s what contributes to this pressure to be inauthentic that we have to always fight against because it’s not coming necessarily from you. It’s coming from the expectations that people are heaping on you.
Jenna: Yep.
Jessica: That’s good.
Stephanie: That’s a lot.
Jessica: We hope that you read that book and you hear that we are just like you.
Sheila: Yeah, and especially with parenting. I think this really--this is difficult because this affects your kids, right? You said that there’s two different expectations for preacher’s kids--that they’re either going to be hellions or else they’re going to be these perfect--
Stephanie: Bible scholars.
Jenna: Bible scholars. (laughs)
Jessica: They should know the books of the Bible and be able to, you know--
Stephanie: Whatever you need, they’ve got it.
Jessica: They can counsel you at five-years-old.
Jenna: It is so funny though that it’s like the polar opposites of each other, but that those are both like stereotypes on pastor’s kids.
Stephanie: It’s very true.
Sheila: Yeah, so how do you--and you guys did a really good job like in the book of trying to maintain your kids’ privacy and not putting them on display either just telling stories, but how do you protect your kids when they’re in a fishbowl like that?
Jenna: Oh my goodness. That’s hard. It’s really hard, but I do think that bringing them into what you’re doing like and being honest with them about a lot of things obviously depending on what their ages as to what you say to them, but I think that just making them a part of the ministry is huge. Letting them know that it’s a part of our world not just ours as husband and wife but--I mean you can’t protect them from everything. But I do think that you can have those conversations with them and let them know that you’re not perfect and that it’s okay to make mistakes, you know, because a lot of pastors’ kids feel like they can’t make mistakes.
Jessica: I think also like to go along with what you’re saying, Jenna, is how we are to them in private needs to be how we are to them with the people of our church and out in public because I think they need to see that we are the same parents, that we aren’t trying to put on this fake mask of parenting when we’re around people because that’s one thing I know that a lot of people have grown up with. They would say--I know people that said, “My dad was pastor, and he would act like he’s the best friend to everyone as he was talking to them in church and then get in the car and all he would do is yell at us. All he would do is abuse us. All he would do is”--like they had complete different lives. So we need to make sure that we are being vulnerable with our kids and making sure that they see that we are the same. But we also aren’t putting expectations on them. And I know I did early on when they were younger going--I felt like they needed to look perfect as we walked into church, that they needed to be quiet and sit still. I mean, gosh, I used to like when we were at conferences, I would have them sitting for hours, just, “Be perfect. Don’t talk. Don’t whisper.” Because for us, it looked like if the kids were not doing right then it looked bad on us and therefore looked bad on our husbands and therefore the church would judge us, that we must be doing something wrong behind the doors. But to really truly be vulnerable with our kids is such a hard thing but so good to do. And then also I would just say one thing for us is letting them know that they are part of the ministry like Jenna said. I have--if Jonathan and I have a marriage, I mean a couple coming to our house, and they’re sitting on our couch, and we’re having marriage counseling, but they have a child or, you know, we’re like, “Hey, girls, you’ve got to go to your room for a little bit,” we kind of say, “You get to be part of this ministry. You can go in that room and play and hang out but also pray for us. Pray with us. We need your prayers. They’re important,” Or, “You watching their toddler while we’re talking with them, that is part of the ministry because if you’re not watching their toddler and keeping that toddler focused, then we can’t focus on what God has called us to do.” So it’s a team effort. So really bringing them in but also letting them have time without church. Sometimes I’m like nope I’m going to let them stay at home because they just need to be because I want it to always be a place that they love. And so far, I mean knock on wood, and I know that could change, but so far they love being at church. They’re like, “Mom, it’s okay. I want to go to church. I want to be there.” But we always have those voices and hear those PK kids going, “I hated being at church. I was at the church all the time, Monday through Sunday.” So we also don’t want to put that on our kids.
Jenna: Yeah, that’s good.
Stephanie: Yeah, I think there’s a balance. There’s a healthy balance in between letting them in on the ministry and then also letting them know that okay we were called to this. You didn’t have a choice, and you’re in this house now, and we get that. And you can rest, and you can take a break. But also just one more practical thing for me and my kids, I tell them, “We can talk about anything. I will not judge you. If you’re struggling with something, you can tell me.” Sometimes they tell me more than I want to know. I’m going to be honest with you. Like I even have a safe spot where one of my children, he really likes to go to the safe place and talk with me, and it’s just our place. And everything stays there. He can tell me anything. There will be no judgement. There will be no getting into trouble. You just tell me your thoughts and your feelings and whatever. So two of my children especially are very open, and the third one--he still will come to me, but two of them love that. And they need to talk out things, and one of them even when they mess or up or usually I know about it because she just flat tells me. Just like, “I need to tell you something.” I’m like, “Okay,” and then, “Two years ago when you told me to,” I’m not kidding. Like this happens. It’s like a little Holy Spirit comes on her, but I love that they feel comfortable to do that because I think that right there if you build a good relationship with your kid and they are struggling with church things they’re going to tell you.
Jenna: So true.
Stephanie: That’s so important. They’ve got to know that they can be honest with you and say, “I don’t want to go to church today.” I’ve actually had one child who really was having a hard time on Wednesday. We have youth group that night, and it’s busy. I took him home. We just went home, the two of us. I told my husband--I said, “He is falling apart. We don’t need to be here. We need to go home.” My husband was like, “Okay, go.” Thankfully I have a husband like that who’s not worried about what people are going to think if we leave or what’s happening. And that right there I think goes a long way with our kids.
Jessica: I think one of the other things is I pray that--I’m really glad--we had a lot of hurt from the church that we were a part of, and my husband ended up getting fired which we talk about that on our podcast. And I remember for a long time, we’re still in the same community, and I just remember even at a young age, the girls didn’t quite understand what was happening at the time. We were adopting Olivia in the process from China, but now, when we drive past that church, they’re like, “Isn’t that the church that hurt you?” They’re just like so--I’m like, “Yes, you know, it was a really rough time, but we had beautiful years there too.” But God got us out of that church, and now look where we’re at, and just try to let them not be angry at that church, you know, because it’s not all that church. The people inside that church some of them hurt us, and you know, I think that’s really hard for PK kids. I think that’s where a lot of things happen. They see horrible things happening, and then they get a really warped view of the church. And then that’s what really messes with their head as they get older.
Sheila: Yeah, I have seen that again and again. I know that this is something that we--like in the work that we do, we struggle with as well is to just not talking about the work that we do with my grandkids who are still so young because you don’t want them to get jaded. You don’t want them to think, “Oh, all these Christians are terrible.” Because it is a warped view because the truth is yes, some people hurt me, but some people did not, and most people didn’t, and most people treated us well.
Jessica: Exactly.
Sheila: But there’s always those some, right? There’s always those some.
Jessica: There sure is.
Stephanie: They can do some damage.
Sheila: Another big theme in your book, and this isn’t unique to pastors’ wives, but I think that there is something special or it manifests itself differently is just the constant stress of always being on call. When your spouse is always on call and when you’re just carrying the emotional load of what so many people are going through in your congregation. I remember when our son was really sick, and then he passed away. It was the middle of the night, and we called my pastor, and he came down to the hospital at 3:00 in the morning. And he sat with us, and then he had to go home, and he had to go to work the next day. And I always really, really appreciated him for that, but you can’t do that every night, right? Like you can’t do that all the time. And how do you draw boundaries as a family where you’re still serving people who need you, but you’ve got to have your own time too?
Jessica: I think we could all give advice on that.
Stephanie: Jenna, you want to start?
Jenna: Yeah, I would say boundaries are huge. For me specifically, we are calendar people. If it’s not on our calendar, then it does not exist.
Stephanie: ADHD probs.
Jenna: Yes, so my husband and I have to be communicating about what’s happening when as far, you know, just our day-to-day ministry stuff goes. And he’s not in a like lead pastor role. He’s not a youth pastor right now. He’s a production director, and he disciples his team at this time. And so, that looks different for him every single week, but we make sure to put it on the calendar. And I think as long as you are protecting those boundaries and you are spending time with your family and your spouse, alone time with your spouse, I think that when those times come up where it is a spontaneous thing, and you feel like--I think the Lord will speak to you. Because there have been times where I’ve felt like, oh, I need to go be there for this person right now, and it wasn’t planned. And it wasn’t on my calendar, and I may have had to, you know, ignore something that was on my calendar, but I think as long as you have your boundaries set and you are spending time with the Lord, and your family time is your priority and your first ministry, I think that when those times come, it makes it a lot easier and less stressful on the family. So I just think that’s huge. Just you’ve got to have your boundaries. Communicate, all the things.
Jessica: Yeah, I would say that we are pretty good with boundaries. We definitely--my husband is a lead pastor at this time, but we’ve also been--but we were in youth ministry for a long time, but I will say it is hard because both of us are very relational so we do spend a lot of time on the phone. We do spend a lot of time on occasion on vacation, sitting, staring at the beach counseling people through things. So I think in those moments especially in our twenties and early thirties I think we could have done better. I think that we have to like get to the point where we know that these people can function without us. I think that’s very hard a lot of times when you want to be there for people, and you want to go sit at the hospital with them. And my husband would have been there right with you, and I would have wanted him to be there. I probably would have been there too, like that’s--that works for us, but that’s not every pastor and their wife because all personalities are different. And we’re all created differently, but I would say that we don’t turn off our phones. And that could be a bad thing sometimes because I’m just like okay, I’m not God. They need to go to God first and then get help, but also we really tried to at our church our village--we have village groups which is like, you know, small groups that meet during the week--and so we really tried to push and create a new culture that you don’t just need the pastor and the pastor’s wife. So that’s creating a new culture of you need the people, the body of Christ, so if there’s a hospital, you call your village group leader, and they come rally around you. Of course, they’re going to let us know, and we can make a choice of what we’re going to do with that, but you don’t need us. You just need the people. Stop putting all the pressure on us, and I know that’s hard for big churches, but big churches come with bigger staff too that can go and do those hospital visits and go do the counseling.
Sheila: I remember years ago there was a woman she--her husband was in the military so they had just been posted to my town, and she’d only been in the church--she’d only been attending for like three weeks, but she had been to women’s Bible study and sat beside me. And her son was diagnosed with diabetes. He was only one-and-a-half, and he had to be admitted to the hospital. And her husband was at work so I’m going--she gave me her key. She called me. I went down to the hospital, I got her housekey, and I had to go into her house and get her a week’s worth of clothes, you know. This was a woman I didn’t even know, and I’m going through her underwear drawer.
Jessica: You’re amazing though. Good job.
Sheila: That is your village, right?
Jessica: Yes, it is.
Stephanie: It’s funny because last night actually I had a college student or I’ll say college and career because technically she’s career, but she reached out, and she was like, “Hey, do you have some time tonight or tomorrow morning where we could talk?” I knew that today was just going to be nonstop, and so I said, “Sure. Let me just get home, get my kids to bed, all the things. You can come over.” Well, it didn’t happen the way I thought because two of my children in two different ways needed me. And it got to the point where I knew it was going to be late, and so I just reached out and said, “Hey, I’m so sorry. Can we reschedule because I’ve got two kids just really needing me,” that sort of thing. And she was totally fine with it. And I think sometimes we think in our heads that people--they need us right now. And they cannot wait, but Jessica is right. They can go to God.
Jessica: They need to.
Stepanie: They can sit on it for a minute before they talk to us anyway, and that gives her a little more time to pray and process before coming and talking to me. And she was okay with it, and there are times of course if there’s a death or if there’s--I mean yes, we drop everything, and we’re like--and our kids get it. They’re actually praying for them. They’re going, “That’s so sad. That’s so hard,” especially my daughter. She’s so tender, and even though she’s tough, she’s very tender when it comes to people hurting or suffering or death, and she will pray right then with tears in her eyes for these people. And I think bringing them in on that too going this is what we can do right now. Yeah, Daddy’s got to leave because he needs to go be with this family, but we can pray for that family right now because that’s really hard. And that just gives them more empathy too so once again it’s that balance of bringing them in but then also okay saying no to a few things when those things can wait. And I think people just don’t realize a lot more things can wait than we want to say can.
Sheila: Yeah, and this is something I think--it’s not only pastors’ families. I know we went through this a lot because my husband is a pediatrician in a town where it was really under serviced, and so there were lots of days where there was nobody on call, and when there’s no one on call they call him anyway. I remember my youngest Katie’s second birthday party, my husband got called away because there was a shaken baby who eventually passed away, and it’s like you can’t say no to those things even though it’s not technically your job. I’m not on call. This isn’t my responsibility, but then who’s is it?
Jenna: Yeah.
Jessica: Exactly.
Sheila: If it’s not mine, then who’s is it? And so he had to go. And what we found sometimes is that the only way we could get any peace was to go on vacation, and so we did get out of town quite a bit when--in those years. And we just needed that because yeah sometimes life is just rough. There are a lot of demands on you because of your job, and yeah, even being mindful of different strategies but that’s just so important to talk each other about because it can get so busy.
Jessica: Well, remembering quality over quantity. You can be with your kid all day long but still not spend time with them. You can be with your husband all day long and not spend time with him. So that’s another thing kind of like what Jenna was talking about. If I know that if I’m home with my husband for 30 minutes, then we are going to do something very intentional in those 30 minutes. And it’s going to feel even better, you know, than spending the whole day with him being in opposite rooms. Like be intentional about that, be intentional with your children so then when you do have to go away it doesn’t feel as stressful.
Sheila: Yeah, exactly. Okay, we were talking a minute ago about how our kids can see when other people hurt us and then can kind of go all momma bear on their parents, but I’ll tell you that the biggest test of my faith over the last few years has been other people like how other people who are supposed to know Christ, who claim to know Christ, how other people have treated me or I’ve just messed up things that should have worked easily. Stephanie, you wrote a story in the book about that youth pastor vote like when the church was voting on whether or not to have you as a youth pastor. Can you tell that because that was really--that hit me?
Stephanie: Okay, so you’re talking about the first church that--
Sheila: Yeah.
Stephanie: --we went to interview for? Yes, okay, so we really felt that God was leading us to this place. I mean 100%, went, loved the people. Felt like they loved us too, were just excited about taking this first step into ministry. We were like, “Yes, God is saying yes to this so we’re going to say yes.” And then the bottom fell out. So my husband gets the call, and I still remember it because I was with him, and at the time, we were actually just engaged. We were not married yet, and he--I looked at him, and I’m all like--because I knew it was the call because I knew the number that was calling. I was like, “Oh my gosh, it’s them.” I’m so excited. I’m waiting. I’m going like this. I am excited, and he just looked like someone had knocked him to the ground. And I looked at him, and I was like, “What’s happening? What’s going on?” He said, “It’s a no.” I’m like, “What do you mean it’s a no? Are you being funny?” I thought he was joking. He said, “No, we got a 74% vote, and we needed 75% to get the job.” And I looked, and I went, “What?” He said, “And it’s worse.” I’m like, “What do you mean it’s worse?” Because the whole time he’s on the phone, he’s just nodding his head, and he’s so--he’s looking surprised, shocked, all of these things. He said, “The church is like splitting.” And I was blown away. The pastor was upset. He had decided to go ahead and resign. It was a whole thing. The whole thing blew up, and the friend that we had made at this church who happened to be a deacon was crying on the phone and going, “I don’t understand. I don’t understand what happened.” And in that situation, I remember being like, “God, what are you doing? What is happening? You called us to this place, and now the bottom is falling out.”
Sheila: And for everyone listening, it wasn’t that they didn’t like your husband. It was that a few families didn’t think there was money in the budget for a youth pastor.
Stephanie: They just didn’t think it was the right time. We really don’t need a fulltime youth pastor. Yes, money and then there was this also funniness about how he wasn’t married yet. Yeah, he’s going to get married, but he’s not married yet. There was just these weird--it was just a few families, but those few families waited until the last minute and shared all of these things and these arguments broke out. And it blew up. And that was our first taste of ministry life, and we were going we haven’t even started and already everything’s gone wrong.
Jessica: Welcome to church.
Stephanie: I had this vision as a child that church was supposed to be a place where you get to be an adult and now life makes sense, and there’s no more fussing and fighting and gossiping and arguing. No, for the most part, church was a good place. That was in my head because that is what was ingrained in me, and I didn’t see all the ugly because a lot of the ugly was swept under the rug or behind closed doors. It was shocking for both of us.
Sheila: Yeah, and I can just imagine, and you know, you think that God is bringing you somewhere. It looks like he’s opening doors, and then these few people can really wreck things. And I’ve seen that happen over and over again in a church where a church looks like it’s doing well. It’s serving the community. It’s making disciples, and then there’s just a few people often power-hungry people who seem to just get control and wrench it away. And how do you support your spouse when they’re the target of that?
Stephanie: Man, I know Jessica is probably going to have a lot to share on that. I’ll start. She’ll do all of the finishing touches I’m sure. It’s funny because my husband is actually the stronger one in our relationship. He’s very steady and very--he doesn’t care what people think of him which I’ve always been like how do you not care what people think? He’s like if God says to do it, you just do it, and we just deal with it. And yeah, he was upset in the moment, but then he very quickly bounced back and was like, “All right, God, what’s next?” whereas I’m going--freaking out but God told us to come here so what in the world is he doing. I don’t get it, and I have all the questions. And so really it was him calming me down, but in that moment I did tell him, I’m like--and I did bring it back down for a minute, I said, “There’s got to be something else, like God has us.” And I think at that time, I thought he could do no wrong. I mean we weren’t even married yet so I’m going he hung the moon. I’m like you’re so great, like you’re such a wonderful youth pastor, but then now even when people talk bad about him because that has happened before, I go they’re not seeing your right or I get a little defensive. And I think that helps him too because he’s like she’s got my back. When I get defensive for him because if I don’t then it’s like, “Wait, do you think I’m doing a really bad job too?” I think just being mindful, like I’m honest with him but also I try not to discourage him with my words. I don’t always get that right, but I think when I can point out the truth that I see in him of the good that I see in him that helps just those words and he thinks he’s not a words of affirmation guy but I can tell that words help a lot.
Sheila: I think most of us are.
Jessica: I was thinking of Ian and you with that certain situation at another church with the letter --
Jenna: Oh, yes.
Jessica: -- and how you kind of handled that.
Jenna: Yeah, at a previous church we were at--it was a very, very traditional--it was a church that we had not--the type of church we had never been there in that type of church before, but we were there for a total of four years, and there wasn’t a whole lot of discipleship on really any of the staff’s part from what I can remember. I just remember that my husband worked so hard, and he had multiple roles at this church and even was expected to do things that weren’t technically in his job description which that can happen. But we always joked that he wore so many hats at this church, and if he did have a morning off, he would always be called off the hook, multiple times, and so when we had finally felt like the Lord was calling us away from this church, we actually gave the church a maybe year-and-a-half notice which I know that’s a long time.
Jessica: That’s fabulous.
Jenna: We knew that they were really in no hurry to fill positions, that’s just what we had seen over the past few years, and so that’s why he went ahead and gave them that big of a heads-up. And the entire year-and-a-half that we were there at the end there was no direct--they made no moves to try to find somebody to fill his position, and he was really good at discipleship and teaching other people, but there were other people that were under him that were super frustrated as well. And the type of church that we were in, a new pastor--we had literally seen a new pastor come in maybe three times like in four years so it was crazy. So this last pastor that came in, I just remember he was only there for maybe a month before my husband and I left. And he started telling people in the church that loved us and he didn’t know because he hadn’t been there--he didn’t know us at all, but he started telling people in the church that my husband left things in a mess when we left. And oh, this wife right here--I was so mad because I was like how--I mean anybody who knows us and knows our hearts and knows how much my husband did and how hard he worked and just how hard he loved people, they know that’s not his heart. But yet here’s this man who doesn’t even know us, and he’s telling people and those people came to us and they were just like we just want to let you know this what’s being said, and I don’t like confrontation. I don’t often feel as if I want to go burn a house down as Jessica says in some of her stories, but I wrote an email to the lead pastor and I was like I can’t leave things unsaid about this. This is not fair to my husband. We gave you guys a year-and-a-half notice before we left, and there’s been no interest in trying to fill that position, and that’s not our fault. My husband has worked above and beyond to help not leave things--
Jessica: A mess.
Jenna: --a mess. But yet that’s what is being said about him, and he responded and was like thank you for saying this. I never actually got a chance to talk to that man. I had to forgive him, and he was not there long after we left from what I hear, but man, I just--I did as Stephanie said, I just had to reaffirm with my husband like, “Hey, babe, you know that that’s not true, right? Because you went above and beyond at this church. You fought tooth and nail to bring that church forward and to disciple people, and that’s all you can do is just know that’s what you did. That’s not what God thinks about you.” But that is hard. That is so hard when you hear somebody saying negative things about your husband or they’re going through something like that, but reaffirming them and just letting them know who they are in Christ and just saying all those sweet things to them, that definitely helps especially--my husband is words of affirmation so he really appreciated that.
Jessica: Well, they both said a great deal so I would say the only thing--go read the book if you want to hear about church hurt because I talk a lot about it.
Jessa: Yes, she does.
Jessica: But I will say I am that girl that was ready to go burn houses down. I was angry. I think it was righteous anger because we--the enemy had come into the lead pastor and a few people and had really done a lot of damage and ended up, of course, secret meetings, ended up firing my husband, and then lying about it to the whole congregation of why we left. And so I would say with that, I really had to lean on and he did too on Exodus 14:14 which we talk about a lot of be still and the Lord will fight for you, and so in those moments of me wanting to literally go have a knockdown drag out, and I could envision it in my head, and it was lovely. I had to remember that Jesus could do even better than me, and so I had to rest in that because it was really hard so during that time, we just had to really encourage each other. Sometimes not talk about it. Be around people that were going to hold us accountable and tell us who we were in Christ and that these things were not truth because it can still even if you know the truth, it still can get to you on any given day. So you definitely have to have that full body armor on constantly or just even the smallest thing can get to you or you can just envision things and it really brings you down. So yeah, definitely have to let the Lord fight and just stay closer, and it really did build us like our relationship it created a closer bond in that moment, and we learned a lot on how not to be as pastors. So we walked into the next season of life going we do not want to be that so what we learned is how to not to be, and that’s truly super important to do.
Sheila: Yeah, I think the church has a unique ability to hurt people like that because there’s all these power struggles, right, and often that happens in church because you got a group of people who is altogether and they are looking for leadership of some sort so people who want to be in power who should often never be in power, but they gravitate to church spaces. So even if most people are healthy, it just takes a couple. It just takes a couple. It can really hurt, and you see that often with a lot of professions--caring professions where people can really get chewed up and swallowed out because you wanted to help. You’re in this because you care and you love, and yet, other people are not necessarily in it for the same reasons. That’s hard when it’s a Christian space because we’re supposed to be focused on Jesus and not everybody is.
Jessica: Yeah, got to have discernment that’s for sure.
Sheila: That in itself is hard to accept and process. Another big theme of your book that I think comes out and definitely your social media because you’re very active on social media and you’re very funny is the idea of friendship. That’s what you guys model all the time. You guys met each other in different weird ways, and you stuck close together. You have matching tattoos.
Jenna: We sure do.
Stephanie: Yep.
Sheila: That’s so cute. But it’s not like you guys have always had a lot of friends, and friendship has been a struggle you said in the book for some of you so can you speak to that because I know there’s a lot of people listening who are like I need a friend, and I don’t have a friend?
Stephanie: Well, for me for years, I had this problem of trying to be whatever anybody needed me to be. So I tried to be everybody’s best friend, but I didn’t really let people see me. I don’t think I was ever fully vulnerable in friendships, and it came to bite me in the behind when we were in our first church ministry. I was trying so hard to be everything I needed to be to fit in that people were turned away from it. They turned away from me or they misunderstood me where all I wanted was relationship. All I wanted was to see these people thrive, but trying to be something I wasn’t was pushing them away, and so for years I would sob and then it turned into some people--there was some gossip and different things that would get back to me that really cut deep because these were people I really loved and really wanted to accept me. And as I was going through that time and I am crying out to God literally just sobbing constantly like Lord please fix this. What do I do? Help me know what to do to make it right, and every time I tried to make it right when I did kind of bare my soul it blew up in my face. And so I just remember thinking Lord I just want people who want me for me and will see me, and I can see them and I just want to be comfortable in a relationship for once, like fully. And not that I’ve never been, but when you move away from home and you’re not around your family. You’ve gone to college and your closest friends all live in different states, that’s hard. It’s hard. You feel kind of isolated, and when we moved to this town where we’re in, I remember thinking I’m going to be 100% myself. You can take me or leave me, but this is who I am. I’m a little bit loud and weird and crazy so I’m not going to act like I’m not so that you’re all weirded out when I start acting like myself because that would happen. So I noticed that I started actually building some friendships even within my church. I was like wow, this is so cool. They like me for me. They think I’m cool, like me. And then as the Lord was laying on my heart about ministry and I knew I was called to something, it had not fully come to fruition yet, but I felt like God wanted to bring the church together through women so diversity just all of these things that were really heavy on my heart. And so I thought what better way than a women’s conference. Let’s do a women’s conference. But it’s not going to be my conference. It’s not going to be my church’s conference. It’s going to be the community conference. So we want everyone to come together, and so I started reaching out trying to find other women in leadership in other churches and so I ended up getting connected with Jessica because her husband and her are at another church leading of course even today the same church such a precious church, and I’d heard so many great things about her. They were like you have got to get her on your team. She’s so good at everything, and I’m like okay. Well, bring her to me. Let’s do this. There was something different about her. When we got on the phone and we talked, it was like for a solid hour about everything and I remember thinking wow this is what I’ve been looking for. And I got off the phone and I’m like I want her to be my friend. I’m telling my husband oh my gosh. It felt like a first date or something. It was weird. So I’m like--we just connected. I feel like she’s this soul that’s been meant to be with mine. I don’t know. And then she and Jenna had already been building this relationship. They had served at that church that had hurt Jessica for several years. Had not really gotten close but then finally started after that ended up going to coffee or doing a few things together with her families and they were already like oh my gosh. Here’s this girl who’s just as weird as I am. Like we can be fully stupid together, and we both just laugh hysterically. So she ends up introducing me to Jenna, and then all three of us, we were just like oh my gosh, we can be fully ourselves. We don’t have to worry about them judging what I say or do. These are the first people I had fully opened up. There was a couple things in my life that I had never told anybody ever, and I opened up to them. And they were fully loving and fully committed to being like, “Stephanie, that was so long ago, and that’s not who you are”--and speaking truth over me. But like yeah, if you mess up, but you got to move on. Like just speaking truth or calling me out, but then not saying I don’t want anything to do with you anymore, but saying hey when you said this it hurt my feelings or it bothered--I’m like oh my gosh. I never even thought. I’m so sorry. And like we could talk those things out, and there was humility among everyone and just saying I love you and I want the best for you. I had never experienced that before, and so now we realize--we know what we have is special. It is not lost on us. I thank God for it every day, and I’m like Lord I know that seasons come and go and friendships come and go, but I’m like please let this one stay. But I know that we have to have open hands for whatever God has for us, but I think when you finally do have open hands and you say Lord I’m going to be exactly who you created me to be whether people like it or not, you’re more apt to find those people that are your people. It’s much easier to find them I think.
Jessica: You have to definitely be vulnerable.
Jenna: Yeah, for sure. I think that’s where realness happens and real truth, real, true friendship or friendship unlocked as one of our friends said. That’s when that happens when you can actually let your walls down and you’re not worried about what anybody thinks. You have the accountability, all that.
Jessica: Just to let you in, this is the only podcast we’ve said this on, just to let you in on our friendship, we literally have had like just at our houses dance parties. And when I say dance parties, we sometimes will do our own dance, and everybody else sits on the couch and laughs their heads off while we dance by ourselves being completely goofy. Like I wouldn’t do that with hardly anybody, but to just go I feel completely comfortable that there is no judgment. There is just laughter, and I can be free to be me, and that is rare. Like Stephanie said, that is not lost on us, and so I think that as people listening out there that might go I just wish that I could have that, I’m not stupid and goofy like y’all and that’s okay. You don’t have to be stupid and goofy if that’s not you. Just be you.
Stephanie: You will find other people.
Jessica: You will find other people, and another thing is there’s a lot of ways that we are completely different from each other. Don’t look for people that look just like you. Look for people and let the Holy Spirit lead you to those people, and it’s okay to have friends, but then you need that inner circle. So also be okay with not bringing everyone into your inner circle because they don’t have the right to be there, and that takes time. That takes time and the Holy Spirit leading them to be part of that, but then once they’re there, be vulnerable. Talk. Laugh. Enjoy each other, and be there for each other. Don’t mess it up.
Jenna: That’s right.
Sheila: So if somebody were to walk into your church, let’s say they just moved to your community, they’re on their own and they want to find a friend, what would you tell them to do?
Stephanie: Don’t wait for someone to talk to you. I think that’s the biggest thing. Jenna will say she’s the most introverted of the three of us, but she has learned that sometimes--and she’s even said like even though she’s so introverted, and when we go to retreats, she’s probably the nervous about meeting all these people and talking and conversing and all of the things even though she does great at it, but she feels very nervous.
Jessica: Nobody knows she is because she’s out and about. She’s like do-do-do-do, you know.
Stephanie: She says that she is breaking out of her shell a bit by being on like the host team at her church. She has purposefully stepped outside of her comfort zone so that she has to greet people and see them, and she has learned that she loves it. If all of us would just say, even when it’s not comfortable, I’m just going to say hi. If it doesn’t work out, it doesn’t work out. Or I’m going to be like hey I’ve noticed that our kids are about the same age, would you like to go to coffee? Or go to an older lady that maybe you would never think of like if you’re--let’s say you’re 30 and there’s this 70-year-old lady, and she has all this wisdom to be like hey do you mind if we maybe do brunch together or something? I would love to pick your brain or talk with you or ask you questions. You don’t know who’s going to be your people until you reach out. Like if you’re just waiting for it to come and you’re never proactive, that’s hard. I get it. There are people with social anxiety. There are people who are introverts. And sometimes God will bring someone else to do this, and you will find people that way, but honesty you’ve got to just get off the bench. You’ve got to just say hi.
Jenna: Make the first move.
Stephanie: You’ve got to do something or find the other person that looks just as awkward as you in the room, and they’re looking--they’re not talking to anybody. They’re a little--they might be socially awkward too. They might totally get you and be like oh my gosh yes. That’s exactly how I’m feeling, but you’ve got to be you. You’ve got to make the first move even if it is a new church.
Jessica: You’ve just got to step out.
Jenna: I mean I was just going to say there’s so much freedom in that too. Once you do like make the first move and you go up to somebody and you’re like hey--because I feel like a lot of the time, we put on a mask, and we feel like we have to be somebody that we’re not just so that somebody will like us. But that’s people pleasing. If somebody says they don’t struggle with people pleasing, I’m sorry. I think that’s probably not the truth because we all struggle with that at some point, but there’s so much freedom in being able to just be you and who God has called you to be. Once you’ve figured that out that you’re not supposed to be like somebody else. Like God created you uniquely so there’s just so much freedom in being able to have friends that you can be able to just share all with and to be vulnerable with and have them hold you accountable for things. Pray for you. There’s just--it’s something really special so make the first move if you’ve got to because it’s so worth it.
Jessica: And I was just going to add ask questions. I think as a generation I think people are--there are so many people that didn’t learn how to ask questions because they’re parents didn’t ask them questions. Their friends didn’t ask them questions, and so that’s really hard for them. My mom was an amazing mother and did that so well. So I want to know everything about everybody that I meet, and I want to go deep. And I want to hear all of the things, and I want to encourage you through it and laugh with you and cry with you. And so that might not be you, but that doesn’t mean that you can’t change. So like ask questions and don’t be--
Jenna: Be curious.
Jessica: Yeah, be curious. Also don’t be the one always talking. You probably haven’t found friends because all you do is run your mouth and so you’ve never given anybody the time of day to actually talk. So you also need to look inside and go what might be going on with me that’s causing me not to have friends. Make sure you do that but then ask questions and get to know people. Care more about them than them getting to know you. Care about them. Don’t be selfish.
Stephanie: And take that mask off.
Sheila: I know there was one church that we ended up having a rather bad experience with and we did end up leaving, but there’s parts of those years I spent there that were really good and one of the things I so appreciated, I was involved in praise team. I led a praise team for several years, and on that praise team we had a teenage boy. We had a guy who was in his sixties. We had a couple of single women. All walks of life, very different ages, genders, everything. We wouldn’t naturally have hung out together, but seeing each other on a regular basis you really got to know each other. We’d have inside jokes. It was a special time because there’s not a lot of other places other than church where you do get into these weird relationships with people that aren’t exactly your age, that aren’t--that don’t hang out in your same social circle. But you can feel really connected and really known and loved. That was special. I could still go back--but again that came because I went and got involved. I served on that praise team. Sometimes yeah if it’s hard to make friends, volunteer for kitchen duty at a potluck.
Stephanie: Yes, something.
Sheila: Volunteer for the nursery, and you’ll end up talking to people who are also there. Because I know that’s hard, right? Nobody wants to go through life alone.
Jessica: Yeah.
Sheila: Well, thank you for joining us. Is there anything else that you really want to say to people about why you wrote this book or what encouragement that you want to give if we haven’t covered it?
Stephanie: We wrote this book because we want to see a healthier, thriving church body. Not just leaders, but the whole body of Christ. We want to see it start from the top because we’re coming from that perspective, but we want to bring truth into the church of the problems that we’re facing, but then bring the hope that can come with healing and how we can actually do that like practical steps, walking you through. How can we do a better job of leading in the church when it comes to marriage, when it comes to parenting, when it comes to just the church hurt we’re seeing and abuse, how can we step in and maybe make some progress with that or help people walk through those hard things? We just want to see a healthier and more whole church.
Jessica: Yeah, we want people to also--all three of our testimonies are in there of so many things that God has done through our lives and our husbands’ lives and our children’s lives, and so we know that if we’ve shared our stories and given God glory and everything that that is what changes lives is the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony. So we believe that this book is anointed and it is ready to go out to whoever would read or listen and we hope that it changes lives. That is for the nonbeliever all the way up to the senior pastor, that we are all the same and we are created equal. And we need to start living like that and to love people according and then also to know that we want to make you laugh too. We want you to cry. We want you to laugh. We want you to know that we are the same, and that every pastor wife that you look like and every leader that they are the same. They deal with the same struggles and hopefully you have heard if this is going to be the first time that you’ve heard it, that we are the same. So stop putting us on the pedestal. We all struggle with the same things, and so we hope that comes across in our vulnerability for sure.
Jenna: I think that you did a great job summing that up right there.
Jessica: Yes.
Sheila: So the book is Pastors’ Wives Tell All. It launches on Monday.
Stephanie: April 30.
Sheila: April 30 so this is April 25 when this podcast is coming out so just a couple more days. You can preorder it now. Remember that when you preorder early on most platforms, you are guaranteed the lowest price and the more people preorder--you cannot believe how much that helps authors because Amazon will order more. If everyone orders on the day that it launches, Amazon often doesn’t have enough copies or wherever else you’re ordering from so when you preorder you tell Amazon hey this is going to be an awesome book so you better order a lot of them.
Stephanie: You better get a lot of them. That’s right. And then also they get gifts if they preorder and they go to our website pastorswivestellall.com/book you will see a button somewhere on that page that says claim your preorder gifts. If you click that and fill out that little tiny short form, you will be given several fun things like the audio version for free.
Sheila: Oh, wow.
Stephanie: You’re going to get some cool lock screens for your phone that are just for the people who claim these. They’re really super cute, and then also some printable encouragement cards, things like that, and you get put into the giveaway for--we’ve had one like every month since we started with preorders, and now in the month of April, we have one more so you’ll be put into that giveaway. It’s pretty cool.
Sheila: That’s pastorswivestellall.com/book. Is that right?
Stephanie: Yes.
Sheila: And I will put that link in the podcast notes too so you go preorder, get your bonuses, and thank you so much for joining us.
Jenna: Thank you, Sheila.
Sheila: It’s great to talk to you on this side of the microphone.
Jessica: Very much.
Stephanie: We appreciate you and what you’re doing.
Jessica: Yes, very much.
Stephanie: You’re amazing, like we love you so much.