Bare Marriage

Episode 288: Is Sex a Want or a Need?

• Sheila Gregoire • Season 8 • Episode 288

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Is sex is a human need within marriage? Let's address the tension between those who see "need" language as potentially coercive and those who feel legitimate sexual desires shouldn't be shamed. Psychological research does classify sex as a human need, but the real issue is how couples can co-create a reality for a mutually satisfying sexual relationship. Rather than pressuring reluctant partners, couples should focus on building marriages where both people genuinely want and enjoy sexual intimacy.

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Sheila
Is sex a need or want? And can Christians please, please, please stop misrepresenting research? Hello. I am Sheila Gregoire from baremarriage.com where we like to talk about healthy, evidence based biblical advice for your sex life and your marriage. And I am joined by my daughter, Rebecca Lindenbach. Hello, hello. And this is our second last podcast of the season.
So we are going to be joining you next week for a totally different kind of a podcast. Yes. As we end off this season and in the month of June, I'm not on my blog, so I'm on social media quite a bit and you'll have these podcasts. But in July, I'm taking off both the blog and the podcast to rejuvenate and hopefully get the first draft of a book written.

Rebecca
Now you are still posting on Substack in June, right?

Sheila
Yes I am. Thank you for mentioning that.

Rebecca
Because you keep on saying I'm on the blog, but we do have like a whole blog post coming out every week.

Sheila
Every week where I'm just rewriting some of my most popular posts and my most influential ones from several years ago. So a lot of you who have only just joined me, have never seen them.

Rebecca
And you tell on yourselves a lot because often people are like "Sheila, I just want you to write a summary post about obligation sex." And you're like, "I did. I did that five years ago. Yes, I did, I did."
And so you can join my Substack. It's totally free. And it's just another way to keep in touch with me. And so you can find that link in the podcast notes. And of course, Rebecca is still writing our Friday emails as well.

Rebecca
And I will say it's a good problem to have when there's just so much stuff out there that people find it hard to find it all. So I really hope that if you're someone who has joined on recently to the Bare Marriage podcast, or if you're someone who you're like, I know I read something a while ago, but I can't remember it, check out what's going on because you might have something fun.

Sheila
Yes. And we are glad there's so many of you have joined recently. I keep getting emails from people who say, I just found you a couple of months ago, and that's always nice. Especially people who, like you said, "you're the first voice that I've heard say these things, and it's really validating to me." So, you know, welcome, welcome to people who have been here for a couple of years now, who've been present with my whole journey, our whole journey. And just a special shout out and thank you to the people who support us on a monthly basis, either through Patreon or through the Good Fruit Faith initiative of the Bosco Foundation. And so when you give even $5 a month in Patreon, you can join our exclusive Facebook group and get all the behind the scenes stuff, which is super fun.
And then if you live in the US and you want to get a tax receipt, you can also give to the Good Fruit Faith initiative and you'll get a tax deduction for that. And you know, we have so much planned that we can't do it on our own. And so we've been doing all of this on a shoestring budget, all the research we've done on a shoestring budget.
And so your donations help us grow and just help us dream bigger. And that's what we're doing this year with translations and all kinds of new podcast series that we're hopefully going to be launching next winter, and all kinds of fun stuff. So thank you for that. Our aim in the month of June is to get 50 new monthly donors for the Good Fruit Faith initiative, so we would love to see that. And if you can join us even for $10 a month, that would make such a huge difference.

Rebecca
Absolutely.

Sheila
Yeah. So enough of that. I have a couple of quick things that we want to talk about.

Rebecca
First of all, we do have to warn you it is really stinking hot today for like no reason. And so we do have the window open. So if you can hear cars, apologies. I know that bothers some people. But you know, what bothers me is being way too hot and sweaty.

Sheila
Yes. And hot flashes and stuff like that for me. So we do have the window open. It might be a little bit louder. So sorry about that. But I have a bunch of really quick things that I want to talk about, Becca, before we get into our big thing about whether or not sex is a need.
So I have been noticing a trend online where Christians pick and choose research to share. That supports what they want to believe but doesn't give the whole picture. And it really bugs me. Okay, so one of the areas that we see this is in how Christians talk about cohabitation.

Rebecca
Yes.

Sheila
Okay. Because, it is a fact that cohabitation is linked to higher divorce rates. Yep. Okay. Now it's not a huge effect size, but there is an effect size there. And this has been known for several years. And I mean, I even used to write articles about this.

Rebecca
We learned this in university. Yeah. That cohabitation leads to longer leads to higher divorce rates than marriage before living together. Right.

Sheila
And so people have been saying, see, it just proves that if you wait for marriage, for sex, then everything will be better. And we shouldn't cohabitate. That's actually not what the research says though. Like in this particular area, that's not the whole picture. And it is important to give the whole picture because there's an increasing number of studies that show that it's not the cohabitation itself, it's why you cohabitate.

Sheila
And so.

Rebecca
It's cohabit. It's like, no, it's cohabiting. That's why you call it why you it's not a habitat.

Sheila
Yes, you're right.

Rebecca
It's why you have it.

Sheila
Yes. Okay. Because if you live together but that if you, if you live together and then you end up getting married, but at the point where you chose to move in together, you weren't planning on getting married. You were just like, oh, we enjoy being together. It's cheaper to be to share living space or whatever that is really linked to higher divorce rates.

Sheila
It's called the sliding versus deciding effect. So you kind of slide into marriage instead of making a decision to get married. It's like we've been living together for this long. We may as well get married, right?

Rebecca
Well, now also like quite frankly, if you're cohabiting and you're, you know, much, you're probably more likely to, you know, frankly, accidentally have kids and stuff as well. Versus if you're being purposeful, like if you're doing the if you're doing the well, I guess we may as well move in together cohabiting. Right? You're going to be more lackadaisical in other areas as well.

Rebecca
And so you may end up with unplanned pregnancies and kids. And that adds strain to relationships. And it just kind of like it's a bit of a self-selection group as well.

Sheila
Yes. But if you cohabit, if at the point where you move in together, you were planning on getting married, you're just like, we don't have the money yet. We can't get married for the two years because of our education or a job situation or whatever it is, but we know we're going to get married. There is no increased chance of divorce.
And so I just think that's important to understand because I think often Christians can be very judgmental and feel very superior to people who cohabit. And like, we're not seeing the whole picture.

Rebecca
Yeah. Because here's the funny thing. So I was in university and like, again, no one's saying that the stat isn't true as a whole. Absolutely. Cohabiting higher divorce rates because of situations like this. I have this teacher for one of my psychology sociology mixed classes, where she was actually the one who was going over these statistics about family, like family structures and stuff with us.
And she was saying that, you know, cohabiting tend to lead to higher divorce rates. And then she goes on this incredibly long diatribe about how this definitely isn't the case for her, though. So she's like, yeah, like, I mean, I've been with my boyfriend for ten years. You know, we met in grad school and we've been together ever since and we're super, super happy.
And like, what? I like to be married, like. Absolutely. But that's not something that he prioritizes and like, you know, and he loves our kid. And that's all really great. And like, I think I'll be okay if I never get married. And it was so obvious that she was accidentally telling us far more than she planned to. And that's the problem. Here's the thing. Like what we're not saying is that, like, what often happens is one person wants marriage and the other person doesn't, and so they end up cohabiting as the compromise. And that is not good. You deserve to be with someone who is committed to you. 

Sheila
100 Percent.

Rebecca
Yes. But at the same time, we as Christians often have this weird idea, because our religion has become so tied up in marriage and sex, it's almost like the only reason why you're Christians is because your marriage and it's like life is better than other people. And so there's this idea where like, oh, no, but if you're saying that the cohabiting rate, as long as a committed is the same as if you get married, then what you're saying is there's no point in getting married.

Rebecca
And it's like, or we don't just do things to be weird. Kids in the playground be like, neener neener, my marriage is better than yours. Like where you have other reasons behind the decisions that you make. Or being a Christian is about more than just owning the atheist. Yes, or like this is the thing. Or it's like if you feel like just the, the, acknowledgment that there aren't punishments to not living a Christian, a Christian cultural lifestyle is threatening to you.
I would just take a big step back and ask, what is your faith based on? Because if your faith is based on just serving other people and being a servant to others and emulating Christ and living, you know, sacrificially, then this shouldn't be threatening.

Sheila
Okay, here's something really funny though. Yeah, okay. Because what is the Christian's response to, oh, you shouldn't cohabit.

Rebecca
Get married.

Sheila
Yeah. Well, you should just get married quickly. Quickly. Yeah. Because it.

Rebecca
Would work. And I think said that where it's like, why are you getting engaged for so long I think.


Sheila
Yeah, well, Josh has such people.

Rebecca
And the other weird family vlog group, the Lebrons, did the whole. Yeah. I was like, just get married. Just get married, just married, folks just get married. And I'm like, don't. Okay.

Sheila
Yeah. So, interesting. There was interesting study that I pulled. It was from 2015. What's it called? Like Diamonds Are Forever and Other Myths or something like that. I'll, I'll put a link to it. It's more looking at like whether the amount of money that you spent on the ring in the wedding is related to divorce rates, but but it has some interesting facts that aren't about that.

Sheila
And one of them is about the length of dating time. Yeah. And what they found here, I got to read it. Hold on. Compared to dating for less than a year before, a proposal dating 1 to 2 years significantly dropped the future likelihood of divorce by about 20%. And dating three years at least dropped it by about 50%.

Rebecca
Yeah, that makes total sense.

Sheila
So the longer that you date the the lower your divorce rate in the end.

Rebecca
Yeah. Well that's not, that's not necessarily the case because there are other and it gets, there's a, there's a return, there's a point of diminishing returns. Yes. Where if you're then dating for seven, eight, nine, ten years.

Sheila
Your like.

Rebecca
Yeah. It's like you don't ever get divorced because you never get married. Yes. Yeah.

Sheila
I think, I think the longest is 3 to 5. Yeah.


Rebecca
Like since like a normal amount of time that you're dating. Right. Like like so. So it's not like you have to deal with people who are. And you know what, again, you don't have to take this as a threat if you didn't. I was with Connor for 18 months, I think. Yeah. And then we were married. Something like that.
Something ridiculous. Yes, it was, but it was great. And you know what? We also did wait an entire year before getting engaged because we were like, we can't get engaged before year.

Sheila
Yeah. So I think we did. We did about the same thing too.

Rebecca
But this is the thing is, you have to understand that the typical advice here, which is just get married and get married quickly, is actually more likely to cause the negative effect that they're threatening people with. Then the idea of cohabiting is.

Sheila
Yeah, because the effect size here is larger than the effects.

Rebecca
Happening. Yeah.

Sheila
So it's like.

Rebecca
Yeah, no, you need to have time to get to know who someone is now.

Sheila
And again. We know there's always outliers everywhere. We're outliers ourselves. But what bugs me is when Christians hyper focus on one stat. Exactly. They don't show the.

Rebecca
Whole.

Sheila
Picture of that stat. And then they ignore other stats.



Rebecca
Well, they're actually more important. If you are one of the outliers, it is your responsibility to understand if you're an outlier. Yeah, right. Like I don't go around to people and say you should get married super quick because super young and super young because I'm like, oh no, no, no, I was weirdly mature. Yeah. But I have a lot of people, people who are just like, oh, they're getting married the same timeline I wasn't.
I was like, oh, that is a red flag. Yes. Right. So understand that if you are someone who's an outlier, don't try to make other people conform to what you did understand. You know what the general consensus of what healthy is, is and figure out why what you did either did or didn't work out. Yeah, okay. Just just put it out there because like we always get comments like, well, I did this and I'm like, we're not attacking you. Yeah, okay.

Sheila
Yeah. Lots of people ask me how they can support what we're doing in changing the evangelical conversation about sex and marriage. And I want to give you two quick ways. One is our patron group that we pretty much always mentioned on this podcast, but the other for people who have a little bit more money they want to invest or some money that God has said, hey, I want you to use this to seed the kingdom.

Sheila
The good free Faith initiative of the Bosco Foundation supports what we do. And when you donate money through the Good Fruit Faith initiative, it helps us do things like write more academic papers, create podcast series that we're hopefully going to be launching next year. Gets our work into other languages and more.

Rebecca
And if you live in the United States of America, you will also get a tax deductible receipt for your charitable giving.

Sheila
So please take a look and join us. We're specially looking for monthly donors so you can give even as little as $10 a month. Do you realize that if everybody on our newsletter list gave $10 a month, we would be making $450,000 a month? Imagine what we could do for focus.

Rebecca
A family would be quaking.



Sheila
Exactly. So please, will you give us some money and help us do what we do on a bigger basis? So there's just one. And again, like, I think the attitude that I really want people to understand is it's so often we feel like we gravitate to these stats that prove that Christians are doing better, but we don't need to be in competition like there isn't.

Sheila
There isn't a competition. We can rejoice when people do well in marriage that aren't us too, right? Like, isn't that what we want? Yeah. So we just want people to do well. And so sharing information about what does make things best, like being intentional, don't move in if you're not going to get married. Okay.

Rebecca
Don't move in hoping that he'll finally appreciate you and decide that here the right one for him. Like move in because you're both like, yeah, we're never we're never break it up. This is forever. It can work.

Sheila
We're not saying that Christians should cohabit. It's not. We're saying, but we are saying that we shouldn't expect non-Christians to act like Christians. Exactly. And if you have non-Christians, friends or family members who are totally committed to one another and who are living together, let's stop being so judgmental. And let's look at the stats and say, you know what?
They have a really good chance of having a healthy marriage when they do get married. So let's support them and let's like be their community.

Rebecca
And also let's just mind our own business.

Sheila
Yeah, like we do that.

Rebecca
Can we just rediscover the spiritual gift of minding our own business? Yeah, I don't like this. Like, it's very, very honest.

Sheila
Because we can do something because we believe that it's the right thing to do. And we believe that this is sacred without it necessitating us judging everybody else who isn't like us. Let's we can still love them, and we can still support them, and we can still celebrate when they're actually doing things that do lead to relatively good outcomes.

Sheila
Right?

Rebecca
Yeah.

Sheila
Yeah. So anyway. All right. Speaking of relatively good outcomes, let's look again at what not to do. So this was actually shared on the June 6th broadcast, a focus on the family. Rick Pidcock, who writes for Baptist News, a good friend of mine, shared this. And then I went and listened and shared a transcript of it.
And people kind of went crazy on social media. So I thought we could just talk about it briefly. So I, I'm not going to say who this couple is because it doesn't matter and I don't want to beat up on them in particular. Yeah, it was just on the focus on the family broadcast on June 6th, and I will link to it in the podcast notes. Let's listen in.

Speaker
Very early on, we started to experience conflict in our communication style. As we mentioned earlier. And there's a pressure to just say, well, you know what? If you don't like it or if I don't like it, we'll go separate ways and we will see that. And oftentimes in relationships prior to our relationship this you could just break up with a person and move on.

Speaker
Right. But as we read the word, we realized that if we could just break up in our dating season in our life, we could divorce, right? And we believe that God hates divorce. Yes. As I said in Malachi chapter two, it he hates it. And so we knew that we wanted to be with somebody for a lifetime if we got married.

Speaker
Right. And so we didn't want to start practicing the muscle memory of breaking. Yeah. We just it was something that we did. We wanted to discipline ourselves through while we courted each other.


Sheila
And so back. You certainly wouldn't want muscle memory and.

Rebecca
Breaking, of course. Muscles.

Sheila
Yeah.

Rebecca
I think this is just ridiculous. And I'm sorry. If you're dating, you should have breakup muscles.

Sheila
Oh, yeah.

Rebecca
Like, you should be able to be like, yeah, this isn't working. I'm out. Like, I only was in, like, again, like one other way. Rebecca is an outlier, but I've only actually ever had one solid, actual exclusive relationship. Right. But before that, I dated a whole bunch of people and I also just stopped talking to and said, yeah, I don't think I want to go out again a whole bunch of times.
Yeah. And as a result, I felt very confident when I knew the right one, because I had had a lot of experience. First, if you're so scared of breaking up, I'm worried people also don't just try it. Yeah, like you can't just give the guy a chance if you feel like you can't break up, right. Whereas I get I went for coffee with everyone cause I knew I could just stop.

Sheila
Yes, I know, like actually feeling. And this is we talked about this in our book. She deserves better. But feeling like I can break up means that you do give people a chance that you're not even sure that you would work with because, you know, and you get to know more people and that that's actually a good thing in the long run.

Rebecca
And a lot of those people for me, actually became very good friends of mine who were very treasured friendships for a long time, but are both ways.

Sheila
And you went to some of their weddings recently? Yes, yes, yes. Right. So like I it just it just boggles my mind that focus on the family is still spreading, a purity culture trope. And just after this, after this, clip that I played, Jim Daly jumps in and agrees with him about how you don't want to practice breaking up.

Sheila
So it's like he actually gave his his stamp of approval to this.

Rebecca
Also, can we just very quickly just to end this section two, can we just say for once and for all people don't divorce because they've got strong divorce muscles. People divorce because their marriages are bad. And so if you're saying that you're worried that people will divorce because of their divorce muscles, what you're really saying is that, like, you think that we should have people weaker and more and less independent and more reliant so that they just can't get out, even if it's bad?
Yeah. And it's like, that's just not the way you think it is. Why don't we just have good marriages?

Sheila
Which actually, shows that he also had a really dumb take on Malachi, too. We assume that Malachi too says God hates divorce. That's actually not what it says in the original language. And just to go on a little rant for a minute, Malachi two, which has that famous thing that's quoted all the time, got his divorce does not actually what it actually says is God is angry at the men who are faithless to their wives and who are and who are putting their wives in these compromising situations and sending them away.
And God is angry at that. So this is not a verse talking to women who are being abused saying, hey, God hates it when you divorce your husband. This is a verse of God talking to the men who are hurting their wives and saying, don't do that, that's bad.

Rebecca
You're also allowed to both hate the fact that divorce has to exist, and also agree that it has to exist. Yes, like I hate the fact that adoption has to exist. It's horrible. Every single child should have the chance to grow with their biological parents. Yes, that is just reality. Also, that's not the world we live in. And so thank goodness.

Sheila
That there is there.

Rebecca
Is a chance, you know what I mean? Like there's and it's a complicated situation. Divorce is the same way.

Sheila
Yeah. It's less.

Rebecca
Yeah. And just like with adoption for example, some adoptions are frankly traumatic and should not have happened, but others are life saving and necessary and a blessing to everyone involved. Yes, but still hard and same thing with divorce. It's like we don't need to have this weird like don't get the divorce muscles. You might accidentally do a divorce bench press.
Like, we don't need to worry about this because this is just a complex issue that is allowed to be complex, and we don't need to make black and white.

Sheila
Yeah. Amen. Thank you for that. Okay. Last quick thing before we we deal with the big one is, I have been getting in some tiffs on Instagram quite a bit lately because a bunch of trad wave influencers and, and other more conservative Christians have been putting up these reels, and I think they've all gone to school to learn how to put up a reel that would go viral.

Sheila
Yes. With like girls dancing and videos of different things. Anyway, they put up this reel that claims that stupid stat that when men come to Christ, 93% of families follow. But when women come to Christ, it's only 17%. Beth Allison Bar and Rand is a Port Cruz, and I debunked that on a podcast last year. I will put a link in the podcast notes.
Basically, that stat was found in a Promise Keepers workbook in 1996 without any citation.

Rebecca
Yeah, I just like vibes best.

Sheila
Yeah, there was no there was no citation to any study. And then it has been quoted so many times since, as if it is a real thing, and no one has ever been able to come up with a study. There is a Swiss study that has different numbers. That's talking about something slightly different that shows that men are more influential, but there's also far more.
But that study was from like the 80s or 90s. There's far more recent North American studies that show that both mothers and fathers are influential and mothers are slightly more influential. Yeah. So it's like, can we just please stop that? But again, when I bring up the fact that this stat isn't true and that these people are spreading false information, they'll say, well, it doesn't matter because it's teaching people something.




Rebecca
Yes, it's teaching them crap that you pulled from your butt.

Sheila
Yeah.

Rebecca
It's not like, okay, great. Well, he taught something, okay. And also, my son tried to teach me that turtles are amphibians a while ago like that. He was wrong.

Sheila
Yeah, yeah, I think, and what they're saying is they're trying to teach women how important it is to pray for their husbands because their husbands are so influential. But that is a horrible stat to say to single moms. Yeah, it's a horrible stat to say to women, no matter how hard you try. There's only a 17% chance your kids are going to stay Christian.
It's not true, and it's totally demoralizing.

Rebecca
And you could just tell women, if it's so important to you, you could just tell them and pray for their husbands. Yeah. Like you don't need you.

Sheila
Don't need to lie. And this is the problem. This is what all of these things have in common is they're sharing what they think is a truth or stat. And it isn't based on any research.

Rebecca
Or it's twisting research or omitting important.

Sheila
Yeah. And let's just stop, okay? Let's not be weird. Like Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. We don't need to lie. We don't need to have misinformation. Okay?

Rebecca
And again, it is okay. Like you will be okay if an atheist has better sex or a better marriage than you like, you will be okay.

Sheila
Yeah.


Rebecca
Jim. Daly.

Sheila
Yeah.

Rebecca
Like it will be okay.

Sheila
Yeah.

Rebecca
You will not spontaneously combust. Jesus is not going to see you when you ascend to heaven and meet him face to face and say, you almost made it. But you know, Jill and Gary like you can't. Jill and Gary are an actual couple. We know we can't do that. But you know, if you know, like, you know, Clark and Tiffany from down the road.
Yeah, they were doing it, like, a little bit more than you. And so you failed as a Christian because you didn't have sex as much as that atheist couple down the road. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, straight to the bad place. Like, that's not going to happen. He's not going to say, oh, almost well done, my good and faithful servant.
But you could have done it more like and that's what a lot of this stuff seems to be. It's like we have to own the atheists in specifically the marriage realm or elsewhere. There's no reason to be a Christian. I was like, there are so many other reasons, and you don't need to lie about fathers. You don't need to lie about marriage.
You need to lie about cohabitating. You don't need to lie about any of these things. You don't need to live a frickin divorce. Mazel tov. You know what happens? You know you don't have to do this. You can just be honest and say, hey, maybe actually, Christianity should be about caring for the poor instead of, yeah, you know.

Sheila
And we can do things because we want to love Christ and we want to treat the things, the sacred that he considers sacred without being super judgy to everybody around us too slowly, you know, like like let's just let's just love people and let's honor God because we want to honor God, not because we want.

Rebecca
To. We'd be much better ambassadors of Christ if we did that anyway. Yeah, so.


Sheila
We told it. But okay, so those are the quick things that I want to talk about. Now we have a major thing to talk about, which has been all over social media and the blog. Like sometimes topics come up and then they come up everywhere and we find ourselves having multiple conversations about the same thing in all different places.
And we thought, let's just make a podcast about this. And so you were getting most of these messages and you've been thinking about this a lot. And so you've been thinking about some scenarios that you want that you want to share. And so let's jump into is sex. Indeed.

Rebecca
Yes. Because we've actually had every now and then like we have 7 or 10 people ask us like the same question in the same week and like, okay, let's just do a.

Sheila
Podcast, let's just talk about it. Because yes.

Rebecca
We've had these conversations in multiple spaces in our patron group. We've had emails to the newsletter, we've talked about it on Facebook. We talked about it on Instagram. There's all sorts of places. These are getting talked about this week. And so, if you're listening and you're like, hey, I was one of those people, you're probably going to see some of our conversation in this podcast.
But what we're pretty much getting is people saying that, you know, there needs to be, you know, some more conversation about sex being me because half the people are saying, I'm getting these people saying that men need sex. And I know that's not acceptable. How do we combat that? Because, you know. Yeah, what they're saying is that saying that men need sex is, in essence, saying that men get to demand sex from their wives.

Sheila
Yeah, let's saying that I have a need to use your body.

Rebecca
Exactly which. Which like not acceptable. Yeah, yeah. And we all agree that's not what. Even if we agree that people need sex, that is not what needing sex means, right? But then the other side is saying, yeah, but like, what about those of us who are in marriages where our partner is just not trying? Yeah, right. Like there's stuff going on and they're not doing the work.



Rebecca
And so yeah, I do feel like I am frankly struggling here and that there is a healthy amount of expectation that sex should have in a marriage. Sorry, expectation of sex that you can have. Right? Yeah. That is a normal thing that people shouldn't be demonized.

Sheila
For, right? Because sex is an important part of a healthy marriage. Yeah. You know, and people get married with the expectation that sex will be a part of our lives.

Rebecca
Well, and literally it is. And this is the thing that's unpopular as it is in marriage vows to have and to hold that genuinely.

Sheila
Yeah. With my body, I've worshiped the old ways of saying.

Rebecca
Yes like you do vow, in essence, that this is going to be a part of marriage. Now this don't worry, we're going to get into the nuance of this. Do not worry. Okay? The other thing too, is that like, the reality is you are not going to find a psychological theory that says a sex is not a human need, right?
You are not. And why do we say that? Because these are descriptive. Descriptive not prescriptive. Right. We look at what do human beings do and in what order we procreate before we have security. Yeah. As a species, we also people will do dangerous things socially, physically to have sex.

Sheila
Like.

Rebecca
This is a thing. People will do this both, men and women. This is not a man thing. This is men and women. We have babies before we have the jobs that make us feel like we are doing great. So we often talk about that idea of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right? And how like feeling secure and like thriving in your work and feeling like you have a great community where you are known and your loved.
Those are all higher tier needs. Yeah. And, sex actually gets dealt with before that.

Sheila
Yes.

Rebecca
In like virtually every single theory of human behavior is we are having.

Sheila
Sex before.

Rebecca
We are doing all the things that actually make us feel like we are thriving as people. Right? And we are willing to sacrifice things in order to get sex. Yeah. And now I will say again, I know this is not the individual experience of many of a lot of people, but when you look at these psychological theories, it is describing how human beings in their natural state tend to act right?

Sheila
Yes.

Rebecca
So no, you are not broken or depraved for wanting to have sex.

Sheila
Yes.

Rebecca
Right. But now I think we've heard from people. Is, this idea that there was one, one example that was given I thought was actually a really good way of putting it, is that we all agree sex is not a need like water and food, but even take the need for food. Okay? You technically only need to eat beans, rice and greens to survive.

Rebecca
Like you can survive on an incredibly bland diet. Yeah. But none of us wants that and none of us makes us do that unless we genuinely have no other option. The minute that we have options to do more, we do more.
And the same is with sex. It's like sure you're getting the bare minimum. Kind of like technically it's like but but it's not wrong to want to have one that feels vibrant and intimate and lovely and like you are just getting to revel in each other, right.

Sheila
And act and that is, that is the only well that is the sex that really does contribute to and sexual satisfaction.

Rebecca
So this is the thing where it's like, no, like, hey, sex is not in need. In the same way, even with our need for food, the need for food is only for beans and rice. But we all know that we want and need more than that in order to have a thriving life. And is for sex, right?

Rebecca
So here's the.

Sheila
Thing. Yes.

Rebecca
This is a complicated conversation, you know, because it's been done so badly for so long.

Sheila
Yeah, because what we have said is that.

Rebecca
Not we personally, but like the church.

Sheila
Yes, yes. And let me let me actually quantify this. Yes. Okay. So when we wrote the Great Sex Rescue, we looked at the 15 best selling sex and marriage books in evangelicalism. And, we analyzed 13 of them. Two of them just didn't talk enough about sex to analyze. We analyzed 13 of them, and  we applied a 12 point rubric of healthy sexuality.
You can download that rubric and you can see how each of the books scored. It's kind of fun. The link I'll put in the podcast notes. But one of those 12 points was about obligation. The idea that a woman is obligated to give her husband sex when he wants it, the idea that consent doesn't really matter, that just he has this need and she has to provide it.
And that is the one that the book scored the worst on. Yeah. Like of all 12.

Rebecca
They were all pretty bad.

Sheila
That one scored the absolute worst. Because our resources have really, really pushed obligation and coercion.

Rebecca
And that's often where this men need it. In a way, you don't understand.

Sheila
So it's, it's Kevin Leman telling women that during your postpartum phase, you need to give him handjobs for oral sex because he'll be ready to climb the walls. It's scary. Thomas telling women that it's a good idea to send naked photos so that his brain is neurologically fixated on your body.

Rebecca
And that you need to meet his sexual needs the way that you meet your newborn's hunger needs in the mills. Right.

Sheila
That's what it all is. Yeah.

Rebecca
Yeah. So that's been the message for a long time, right. So that's why this conversation gets really tricky because we also found.

Sheila
And we also know that that message is highly correlated with higher rates of sexual pain. Oh yeah. It's one of the biggest things that explains it's not the only thing, but it's one of the biggest things that explains why evangelical women suffer from, you know, two times the rate of sexual pain disorders. It leads to lower orgasm rates.
Here's something else that's interesting. Okay. When you measure, like when you look at teenage kids or single people who are about to get married, women and men both have roughly the same excitement about the sex they're.

Rebecca
Going to have.

Sheila
They do women fantasize about sex as much as men do? They are super, super hyped up for sex. But then when you get married and sex is bad for women, women stop wanting it in the same way.

Rebecca
Well, exactly. And that's where it gets complicated, because we found, and I know people are probably going to be like, say this with me at this point. But when it comes to like frequency and being satisfied with your sex life in these kinds of things, right? As long as there's five things present, you tend to be fine. Let's go through them together. No porn use, no sexual dysfunction. Intimate during sex. Happy marriage. No pain.

Sheila
Yes, yes, those are them.

Rebecca
And oh no no no no orgasm progression is in sexual dysfunction. Yes yes. And both of them are orgasmic okay. So this is the bare minimum sex is. So in other words the sex is good. Yeah. They tend to have sex. So here's what's really tricky. We're going to go through a lot of scenarios to show you why this is tricky because people come and say like you know, but we need to be able to talk about sex as a need so that these people who are the higher disposed aren't being shamed by their lower drive spouse for having these needs.
And I'm like, okay, that does happen.

Sheila
That does happen. But this is also where it's tricky.

Rebecca
Studies have found that as long as it's good from the beginning, women and men have about the same.

Sheila
Yeah.

Rebecca
Likelihood of having a high sex drive. Yeah. Okay. And the reason I'm talking about this in a gendered way is we just don't have a lot of, like, high libido women talking to us about this, right? Because often the situations, if there is someone who has a higher libido, who's the wife? They're often like, yeah, my husband chooses porn over me, or my husband has health issues, or my husband, like, there's, there's there's reasons they're, that are not, anyway that are, that are not the same dynamic as what we're talking about right now.
Yeah. But what ends up happening is, you know, the unfortunate reality is that your sex life is often a direct result of your own actions, whether they were done in knowledge of where that was going or not. Yeah. So what often ends up happening is we have a lot of people who are like, you know, the first couple of years of marriage are really rough.
We did these things badly. I was a bad husband for a long time, but now I've been a lot better recently and I'm improving and I'm growing and I don't. And it's just really hard for me because I'm doing all this stuff and she's still not prioritizing this. And so how can we talk about how, like, you know, it is okay that I have needs and it's like, yeah, it is okay. You have needs. And also like the problem is that no study is going to find that emphasizing how important sex is to you is going to make her want it.

Sheila
Yeah. And this is so key. Please men understand this okay. Like telling your wife that you need sex is not going to make her want it, okay? It's actually probably going to do the opposite. Telling her you need to give me sex because I'm super frustrated isn't going to magically wake up her libido.

Rebecca
So let's okay, let's do like a scenario here just to show. Because here's the situation I think people understand the theory, but they don't see how it actually acts out. Okay. So say you have Tim and Britney okay Tim and Britney get married. Sex is bad from the get go because they don't have sex education.That is not their fault.

Sheila
And they were taught that as long as you wait sex is going to be amazing. And in the marriage you want, we had the stats of what people do on their wedding night, and basically, couples are more likely to bring him to orgasm before they try intercourse than they are to bring her to orgasm before they try intercourse, even though she's the one who needs the.

Rebecca
Hey, here's but the scenario. Tim and Brittany. Okay, before they were married, Tim and Brittany made out all the time, and Brittany was always the one to put on the brakes. This is a very, very common dynamic among Christian couples. So Brittany was always wanted to put on the brakes. Tim was just having the best time of his life making out.
And then they get married and sex is quick. It is orgasmic for him and she just feels nothing. And they're like, okay, well, the first time's often rough for the girls. So like, you know, it's okay. And they keep having a honeymoon and the sex remains quick and.

Sheila
Yeah, and she doesn't even know how to talk about what she wants. Yes.

Rebecca
Because they haven't had a sex education until.

Sheila
They were told that sex was going to be amazing if they waited. And so. And then sex is amazing. And so she starts to wonder if something's wrong with her.

Rebecca
Yeah. And so what ends up happening is this dynamic happens and she feels like, yep, I love Tim. And they like feeling close. But then over time, the mental load builds up and like, she's starting to feel frustrated. And then they have kids and she's still and he barely orgasms.

Sheila
And every time she's doing the dishes, he grabs her boob.

Rebecca
Yeah.

Sheila
And it's like, it's like.

Rebecca
All these things. So Tim and Brittany in this, in this marriage, now we're like, sex has always been something that she does for him. And now they have kids and she's exhausted because kids are awesome. They taking point on because like, that's the case in like the vast majority of marriages and then like you fast forward 20 years into their marriage and she's just not in the sex.
She's still having sex and she's like, I still love you. Like I want to feel connected, but like, gosh, no, I'm not going to, like, I don't want to. I don't have the energy to do more than this. Like, let's have sex on Tuesday nights because the kids are away at youth group, and that works for me, right?
Like I can get in the right headspace is fine. And he is feeling like, gosh, this sucks. Like, I wanted more than this. We both wanted more than this. Why won't you get with the program? And he wants us to say he's you're right. Brittany. Tim is not wrong for wanting to have sex 2 to 3 times a week and want to have to be flirty and have you pull him into a closet to make out and hide from the kids like that.
Is Tim's not wrong for wanting that. And we're like, no, Tim's not wrong for why that Tim also did not make that bed. Yes, he's at the same time as Tim. In Britain, you're getting married. We have Caden and Peyton getting married. You know, Caden is also very excited about sex. And Peyton is also very excited about sex.
And both of them are also making out like mad. And they're both going a little bit too far. And both of them are kind of like, we should put on the brakes, but I don't want to. And they get married. And you know, from the get go, Caden makes sure that Peyton has an orgasm and he's just so excited about being like, oh yeah, I am the best.

No one has ever had sex better than me, ever. Right? And he makes sure that that is kind of his identity in their marriage is that she brings her pleasure. And maybe that's because he got sex education. Maybe it's also because he was paying attention to what she was doing when they were making out, when they were dating.
And he realized, I can get this girl hot. Yeah, right. Because he was taking initiative and also making sure that people want to stop, but also because he was focusing on what she wanted when they were making out. He wasn't just doing what he wanted. Right? So even just from the kissing stage, he has now set the scene for sex to be good for Peyton.
Right? So then they get married and Caden is just like, you get three for every one girl, and then they just come home from the honeymoon and they are thrilled with each other. And then, you know, life happens and they have less sex and it gets less frequent, but it's still really good. And when they're when she's pregnant, she stops orgasming as easily because she's pregnant.
But he makes sure that, like when they are having sex, it's still like as close to orgasm because they can possibly.

Sheila
Yeah. And he gives her a huge massage and just makes it really good for her.

Rebecca
But here's the thing. Like the whole time it's been very mutual, right. He helps like he was terrible with the mental load. But then she brings it up and he's like, oh yeah, you're totally right. And they fix it. Early on. Her whole marriage has been where Peyton isn't doing this for Caden. Peyton and Caden are doing this together.
Yeah. And so then, yeah, no wonder Peyton wants to grab Caden and throw him in a closet and make out with him, right? Because this has been a rewarding experience. Her entire relationship with him. And so Caden, frankly, has earned the kind of sex life he wanted, which Peyton also wanted.

Sheila
Which, by the way, Britney.

Rebecca
Also wanted when they got married.

Sheila
Yeah, but.



Rebecca
Tim actively did things that took that from Britney, and so he does not get to reap the benefits that Caden gets to reap. And, Peyton gets to reap with Caden because he made a bed that served him at the expense of his spouse. Yeah. Did he do that in a mean way or with intention? No. But it doesn't change the fact that he did that.
And this is what's tricky, because Caden doesn't need us to tell Peyton to have more sex.

Sheila
Is Peyton.

Rebecca
Peyton sex? She wants to have input the entire time. Okay. Tim wants us to tell Brittany to have more sex, and I'm like, I just don't think Brittany should have more sex. I think Tim should work towards undoing what he has done and creating the kind of relationship where sex flourishes.

Sheila
And that means having an honest conversation about how you messed up and saying and then and then not saying. Because this is what often happens when people read the Great Sex Rescue, and I hear about this a lot, the men will read it and go, okay, I did everything wrong. So now we're going to do it right from the beginning.

Sheila
So tonight, you know, we're going to do is we're gonna have like a two hour session and I'm going to figure out how to give you an orgasm. And it's like, and she's like, I don't want you to touch me. Yeah. Because even if he's like, yeah, I did all of this wrong and now I want to make it better.
You what you what you did was you took away my, like, her ability to set the stage for her sex life. Well, and so you now need to let her take the lead a little bit and show her that you are trustworthy and that you really do care about her experience.

Rebecca
Well. And also, like, quite frankly, the reason why this is a tricky conversation is because there is not an easy answer. No, because even if by no fault of your own, and because you had bad information, you did things that led to a very selfish sex life that you did not fix early on. Yeah, right. Because a lot of people make mistakes in the first two years.
First three years, like a lot of people. And it doesn't seem to impact stuff because they naturally change. There is a level where it's like.


Sheila
Yeah.

Rebecca
You didn't change for 15 years. You have to take ownership of that, and you have to realize, like, maybe you don't actually get to want the things that we showed.

Sheila
Up, you know, here's an example. And we put the story, I think, in The Good Guys Guide to Great Sex, but I got an email from a, from a guy or maybe a comment on the blog where he was saying, you know, I would desperately love for my wife to reach orgasm, okay. But she just doesn't want any foreplay.
And every time I try something, she pushes my hand away and she says, no, just go ahead. And so for 17 years I haven't been able to give her an orgasm, but it's like buddy, for 17 years you have been using her when she's not enjoying it. And even if she is telling you to go ahead, like the fact is, for 17 years you cemented it into her body and her body remembers this isn't something that I enjoy.

Rebecca
Yeah. Well. And okay, let's do another scenario then on that, on that note. Okay. Right. Okay. And this one is tough, okay. This one is not nice. And you know we're not trying to oversimplify things, but this is just how it is okay. Two couples both of them have sexual trauma before the relationship. The women have sexual trauma before the relationship.
Right. Because this is again, what we often get is the husband did not have sexual trauma. The wife did. Yes. And these are often the men who are talking about how my wife won't get over her sexual trauma. Yeah, right. Here's the thing. I do believe, and this isn't a hard thing to say. Okay? So hear me with all the grace.
If you know that you have trauma in this area before getting married, please do. If you want to get married, it is on you to do work and to work at this because.

Sheila
Which means going to a licensed trauma therapist, like a therapist who is trained and evidence based trauma therapy, if not just someone is going to talk to you about it.

Rebecca
And not everyone who has experienced trauma is going to have PTSD. But if you're someone who you know that you do, you know that you have find it hard to be touched. Certain ways you find even just kissing is a little bit like you're not able to fully just be present. Please, it is your responsibility because this and that happened to you and is stealing your ability to be present in these areas. If you want to have a marriage, a sexual relationship, please do get help with a licensed therapist before you get married if at all possible. So if you're someone who's listening, who is engaged or dating, who has this in your past, first of all, I'm so sorry. It's not fair that you have to do extra work.
It's not right. It's not just, but also it is not fair to yourself or the person you love to just not deal with it. So yeah. So if you're in a dating relationship and making out is triggering like that is not something to say, well, we'll get married and then it'll be okay because we'll be married. No, it actually won't.
Your body will remember. And there are licensed therapies that honestly really, really help okay. And again I'm not saying like a lot of people have experienced assault and do not have trauma triggers. That is true. So like you, it's if you need that. Okay. Yeah. And but at any point if you need it. So that's the first thing I will say.
Okay. But now you have these two couples. Okay. You have, Kyle and Brandi, right? And you have Mark and Jeanette. Okay. So you have Kyle and Brandi and Mark and Jeanette. Both Brandi and Jeanette experienced, unfortunately experienced sexual assault before they were married. Right. Like, that's just a terrible thing. They went through. What was Brandi's husband name?
Kyle.

Sheila
I don't know, guys.

Rebecca
So Kyle and Brandi are very much of the opinion that, like, well, it's different because we love each other, right? So they get married and she is very triggered, but is kind of like angry at herself for being triggered and frustrated and doesn't want to put that on her new husband and feels very broken.

Sheila
Right. And so she internalizes a lot of that shame.

Rebecca
She internalized a lot of it, and he knows about the assault. But he's kind of been like, but I didn't do it to you, so why are you having problems with me? Because I didn't do it to you. And that is very common. We hear that all the time where men say, well, is not my responsibility because I didn't traumatize her yet.
Right? Yeah. And so they have sex that is triggering to Brandi. And it is. And eventually she just continues to feel such a distaste for sex because it's continuously triggering and emotionally exhausting. And she feels like I should want this. I should like this. I can't get over. Maybe they get really into soul ties theology, and they try to do a bunch of, like, stuff with their church to help her feel better about it, but nothing really works. And they keep having sex because she knows that he needs it and she just feels like this is horrible. This happened to me. I'm broken forever. Yeah.

Sheila
And remember, every time they have sex and as this happens for.

Rebecca
Years and years.

Sheila
And years, it is reinforcing to her body.

Rebecca
That this is.

Sheila
This is dangerous. This isn't something that's for you. This is somebody using you.

Rebecca
Yeah, yeah. On the other hand, we have Mark and Jeanette. Right where Mark knew that Jeanette had this trauma. And so they decided that they were going to always go at Jeanette's pace and that they were never going to do anything that Jeanette didn't really, really want to do. Even with kissing evil, holding hands. And over time, you know, I mean, Rachel, Rachel you're talking about in a book and a great tech rescue.

Sheila
Well, you actually, I yeah, I quoted her, in the great sex frustrated interview with her, but she talks about this in a beautiful way in her memoir, too. Just about how Jacob, her husband Jacob and Rachel did. Hollander, of course. The first one to come forward in the Larry Nassar trial. And has been really instrumental in helping sexual abuse victims, especially in the SBC and other Christian spaces.
But, you know, she had this history of sexual abuse, but her husband understood that and walked through those traumas with her and was very open. Okay. So when you feel triggered, tell me, we will calm down. We will breathe together, center. And then those things stopped having as much of a hold on her.





Rebecca
And because really able to let go because he didn't see this as a thing that was getting in the way.

Sheila
So he saw this as a way that he could serve her and honor her instead of something that was stealing something from him.

Rebecca
Exactly. And so this is the situation now. You have Kyle and Brandi where they've had traumatizing sex, even though, you know, technically, she always consented. Technically. Right. And now. But you have Marc and Jeanette, who, you know, because I feel weird talking about people that we know. So I'm just going to put it back into two actual terms.
But you have these other people where at no point was Mark like, I'm frustrated that you are traumatized at me. Yeah, right. It was like, no, I love you. Your story is my story. Your burdens are my burdens. Your hurts are my hurts and your pains are my pains. And so then sex wasn't ever something that she felt like.
Man, I'm so inconvenient to mark that I have this baggage. And I know this is hard language, but this is the story that I hear over and over again applies.

Sheila
Especially the sexual pain too, because that's another thing that we hear. So it's not to say sexual abuse, but it's like one has been is this is something you are doing to me. And we're going to try even if it hurts. And one husband is like, no, no, no, we're not going to anything that ever hurts you. You know, I'm going to walk with you through therapy.
I'm going to support you. We're going to figure out what we can do without it hurting you. But I never want to hurt you.

Rebecca
Yeah. And I think this is a thing where. Where we get a lot of messages from men where they don't realize their Kyle. Because they say, my wife was raped, and I feel like it's destroyed our marriage. And I'm like, why?

Sheila
Yes.

Rebecca
Because a lot of people now again, there are a lot of people who get married having not dealt with their stuff, and they refuse to deal with their trauma and they shut down. And we do hear from people where it's like we tried to have sex like once, and it's been five years and it hasn't happened again, because she's so traumatized and I don't feel like it's right to divorce someone because they were raped before they're married.
But what on earth do I do? Like, I know that sounds ridiculous, but we get those messages.

Sheila
Those are those that do.

Rebecca
So that's why I'm saying it like that. It is important for you to understand that it is not fair to expect someone to enter into a sexless marriage without their consent, because we're not willing to deal with our triggers. Absolutely. Like that is just not fair, right? And we need to stop acting like people are holier for not having sexual desires, because sexual desires are natural.
They are actually the base. If you have had a healthy relationship with sex your whole life, the base experience is a pretty high libido. Yeah, that. It's like studies have shown that it's pretty consistent.

Sheila
Yeah, having a low libido is often something which is the product of.

Rebecca
Something is going.

Sheila
Messaging or something. Yeah, something going awry in your life. And I think that's not well understood because in Christianity we've told women you naturally have a low libido. It's like, no, no, no, we actually found the great sex recipe that certain messages lower libido. Like, if you believe all men struggle with lust, it's every man's battle. You are more likely to have a low libido than if you were never taught that.
So there are things that artificially lower your libido, and having unsatisfying sex out the gate and continuing to have unsatisfying sex massively lowers your libido.

Rebecca
And so here's the thing it is not like I do want to stop seeing people say, well, you just should. You should just be okay with never having sex again, then that is not natural. That is not healthy, actually. Like genuinely, I can't find a study that shows that it's easy to expect someone who has a sex drive to just not want to have sex again, or to be able to function perfectly fine without getting that met.
That's not realistic. It's not based on evidence. And if we're going to be evidence based, we also have to be evidence based about stuff that necessarily doesn't doesn't fit with our personal agendas. Because I do see that a lot from women who've been really hurt for like where I'm like, yeah, fair on you. Yeah. I'm like, yeah, you're not getting any judgment from me.But we don't get to then weaponize, you know, research by omitting stuff because it doesn't fit with our agenda. Even if the agenda is to protect people who you feel have been wronged. Right. Which is fair. But you think so? The first thing is, genuinely, it's not right to not be willing to deal with the stuff that's getting in the way.
If you want to get married, yes. If you're like, you know what, I'm happy never having relationships. I still think it's always better to deal with our stuff, but that is your prerogative. Like no one is forcing you.

Sheila
It's only if it's only impacting you. That's your prerogative. But as soon as it impacts other people, you really do have a responsibility, especially if you're getting married to someone. Like it's important to care for them and you're pledging to care for them.

Rebecca
And so that's the thing. But at the same time, the majority of women are willing to deal with their stuff. But like because we see this in the number of women who go to therapy, the number who are buying these books, the number of women who are going to these soul ties, exorcisms to make sure that they can get all this past experience, like women are doing stuff.

Sheila
We’re not in favor of soul ties.

Rebecca
No, we're not. By the way, anyone who hasn't read has listened to the Soul Ties podcast. Now's a great time to go to that. Find out what I really think about that. Yeah, no, but here's the thing. Most people are willing to try to fix it. And so if we get a message from a man who says, you know, we've been having sex only like once a week, but I really wanted sex more like 2 to 3 times a week.
And I just feel like the person who assaulted my wife has ruined our sex life. I'm like, you ruined it because why didn't you go at a pace that allowed her to enjoy every step of the way? Yeah, right. And it's like, this is if we're having frequent sex and she's not into it. That means that you did.
In fact, do things. And it was not only that person who assaulted her. You solidified those messages. And that might not feel fair. Yeah, but the thing is, I think that the kinds of people who do that are also likely to have ruined their sex life, even if there wasn't past trauma. They just have a really nice scapegoat. Yeah, because the same things are involved with Tim and Britney where it's like he wasn't paying attention to what got her horny. Yeah, she wasn't paying any attention to her. Yeah.

Sheila
And there might have been like but like we said, there could have been really understandable reasons. But there's one more. Can I do one more scenario? Have you done all your scenarios? I was there, you are okay okay. I'm not going to do two different couples because I can't remember all the names. But this came up a whole bunch of times in like a one week period when we were writing, I think it was the good girls got great sex and it made it in there.But a guy wrote in and said, you know, when we got married, I loved sex and my wife always orgasm. She loved sex too. And we would have sex like once or twice a week. And I was and she loved it. And I was saying, why can't we do this more? Why can't we ever do this? More? Like, why is it only ever once or twice a week?
And then she just stops wanting sex. And now we have sex like every six weeks. And so here's a woman who was enjoying it, who was reaching orgasm. But what she kept getting was you're doing it wrong. Yeah. Like, no matter what we do, you are doing it wrong. And I think and I and then I heard it from a bunch of other people too, is the same story but slightly a different thing was just like, you know, we were having sex a bunch of times and I was liking it, but he kept nagging me at a time.
I said, no, the days that I said no, he would make me. And so it's like these guys are having, yeah, you know, relatively good sex lives.

Rebecca
But once again, they are not considering the environment they are creating for their sex.

Sheila
Yeah. And so she's like, well, I can never win. Yeah. Like I am always a disappointment to him. Sex is something which is equated to me with something that hurts our relationship because I'm never good enough for him. And so then they just stop wanting it, even if it is good for them, because it has created this negative dynamic.
And that's why it's so important to not see sex as something which you would just get devoid of the relationship. Like sex is the expression within your relationship of everything. You are together. It isn't something you just get from your spouse or that you're entitled to from your spouse. And I think when we see sex as like, I like God made sex to be awesome.
And so I deserve the hottest sex life I can possibly have. And unless I get that hot sex life I can possibly have.

Rebecca
That I'm unhappy.

Sheila
Then I'm not happy. And you see this even if it's not with frequency, if it's like my wife just won't do this one sex act that I really want. And so, like, she'll do all this other stuff that I enjoy, but she won't do this one thing. And you've been nagging her about it for years, and then you just turn her right off.

Rebecca
Well, and that's not the situation. So when people say, well, you need to talk about how sex is a need, how varieties need, how are these things you need? I'm like, okay, but here's the thing. Research shows that if she has a good sex life and she enjoys sex, she's more likely to do freaky things. She's really high frequency.
She's more likely to be experimental. She's gonna do a lot of stuff.

Sheila
Yeah, like.

Rebecca
I can't like every single, like, measure of. Like what? What people are asking for when they talk about wanting us to tell women in particular. Sex is actually a need that is going to naturally be much more likely to happen if she's having great sex. Yeah. And I think that's what's so tricky. And so, you know, there's one last kind of example which is the other side of it.
Okay. Which is okay. You have Deborah and Ryan, right. And Deborah and Ryan started out rough. They were Tim or. No. Let's do Tim and Brittney. Okay. Let's go back to Tim and Brittany. Okay. It's one sided sex, bad mental load. 20 years later, she's just like, I'm just done, right? And she's having pretty sex once a week, right?
And it's bad. But he's like, well, at least I'm getting off, right. Like, quite frankly, just to be crass, but to truly be what it is. Right. And then Tim is one of the guys who reads a great text rescue and is like, I am scum of the earth, like I have screwed up and he has a real come to Jesus moment.
He's Paul on the road to Damascus. He is like, I'm so sorry he does. And then he does everything right from now on. Okay? And Brittney still loves Tim, Tim and Brittany. Brittany does not want to be divorced from Tim. No has. Tim is also becoming a fantastic dad.

Sheila
Yeah, Brittany actually wants a great sex life. She just could never figure out how to get there.



Rebecca
Well, and also, it's like Tim was like the kind of guy who, like, didn't clean up, but like, they still had good conversations. They were still always friends. It's always respect each other. Like he wasn't mean. He didn't belittle her or anything like that, but he was just a lazy, lazy man who was entitled, okay? And now he's like, I was a lazy, lazy man who was entitled.
Yeah. And he spent five years and they've because they read it when it first came out like, and they spent like four years now working on this and he's been like so good. Like he took the huge sex fast. He was like, you're right. I have been entitled here. I need to make sure that I'm able to function without this, like being on my terms and like, we need to figure out how to fix the arousal piece, all this stuff, and they figured it out.

Rebecca
But she just still doesn't really want to put in the work to try to fix it. And she feels like it's unfair that she should have to write. And I'm like here's the situation.
It is unfair. Yeah. Flat out it's unfair. Also you have a choice here because you can choose that. You'd rather have a marriage where neither of you are thriving or having a really great time, but at least you're still together because Tim's not going to divorce Britney over this. Tim knows this is his fault. Tim was like, no, I will be in a sexless marriage.
That's my life. I need to, but I just don't want to. And I don't think it's good for either of us. And it's incredibly frustrating to be the one who was the bad guy, but also was the only one pushing for change to be better. Right? So Britney has a choice here. Yeah. And the data does show that if Britney does not start to prioritize this and start to also do the bit to be like, okay, I'm going to be open to changing and having this be better.
And I'm going to realize that, no, it's not fair that this was stolen for like literally two decades. Not fair.

Sheila
And now I'm hitting menopause. And, you know, I'm never going to have the sex drive that I.

Rebecca
Had when I, when they were dating or whatever. Like, like it's not fair. Okay. But if you don't put in the work and if you don't decide, like, you know what, this is something that he's not broken for wanting. This is, that was stolen from me, you know, and seeing it that way versus, like, he. The problem is not his sex drive.
Actually, the problem is that you were not allowed to.

Sheila
Be sexual.


Rebecca
To have one yourself. Yeah. Like that was taken.

Sheila
That was taken from you.

Rebecca
You are also going to do your marriage and that is the unpopular truth. It's like in that scenario, it's not that she needs to be told that he has needs and he's fine for having those needs, and you're the problem. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is you get to have needs too. And so like, let's figure out like at some point when you are married.
Yeah.

Sheila
What you're doing here. Let me try this.

Rebecca
Yeah.

Sheila
Let me try this one. Okay. You've been hurt in the past and you've had something stolen from you, and nobody can change that. Yeah, he cannot go back in time and change that. He cannot magically do things differently. And so you're now looking ahead at the next few decades of your marriage. Yes. And you can say, I am just so hurt.
And I am just overwhelmed. And you know what? It's just going to take too much work to fix it. And I am fine just coasting. But is that what you really want? Because you do have the possibility of thriving. And the way that you thrive is to realize this was stolen from me. But that doesn't have to define the rest of my life.
I can choose to say, you know what, we're going to start again. Let's jump in. Let's make this a big research project. Let's rediscover each other. Let's do it the way we should have done it. And let's maybe find and build this marriage that we wanted to begin with. Let's figure out how to have that marriage that I wanted the day that I walked down the aisle.
Even if it is 20 years too late, and even if I can never get those 20 years back.

Rebecca
And I think in those marriages you again, it is a choice. You know, but we're not going to lie to you and say that both choices are equal. Like no one does have evidence based support that it will lead to you being happier, you being healthier longer.


Sheila
And we have some help for you. I just want to do a plug. We do that to help. If that's you, we have an orgasm course. If you've never figured out the orgasm piece, it has a husband's edition too, so that you can each take it, and learn from it.
We also have a libido course. So if orgasm is your issue, please get the orgasm course. We also have a Boost Your Libido course. And that's for women who can reach orgasm but just find that their libido is tanked. Okay, so don't get the limit. Of course, if you can't reach orgasm, because that's the problem. Yeah, but for those of you who like.
No, I can reach orgasm. I'm just tired. I just don't see why I should have to want this. I don't understand why I don't want it. The libido course is really for you. Okay. So that is our take on whether or not sex is a need. I know, Rebecca, you've been thinking about this for a long time this week and come up with all these scenarios that you wanted to share.
But I think that's what's important to remember. Okay? Is that. Yes, sex is important. Yes. You know, people get married wanting sex, and this is valid. And it doesn't make you less spiritual if you want sex. But if sex is a need, then have the kind of marriage that is going to lead to great sex and let that need motivate you to create that kind of marriage instead of seeing that need, quote unquote, as a reason to pressure your spouse to give you what you want.
So, so and I hope that that is a mindset shift that we made clear, because, no, we're not saying that you don't have autonomy over your own body, but it is valid toward sex. But then let's look at the dynamics in our marriage and figure out how we can get there. And if you're the one with a higher drive, then you have to figure out how we can make this up to my spouse.
Okay, so wrapping up, I got this note. Can I read you this note that I got today? Okay, so a woman said, I just wanted to thank you for making our marriage so much better. We read The Great Sex Rescue a couple of years ago so that someone who read it four years ago, and after 38 years, we finally stopped having sex every 48 hours.

Rebecca
Oh my word.

Sheila
We recently read your latest book and it's like my husband's eyes have been opened. He has changed so much in the last couple of months. It used to be that I was enduring being married and now I actually enjoy our life together. Oh, that's. That's lovely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And now they're finally creating the kind of sex life that they actually want, instead of just being performance based and duty based.
So nobody wants to do this.


Rebecca
Well that's fantastic.

Sheila
Yeah. So thank you for joining us. Join us next week on our last podcast of the season where we talk about fiction. So this is kind of like, like all the people, all the younger people in our team. Yes, our big, big, big fiction fans. And they're constantly sharing book recommendations.
And while we don't normally talk about fiction, we did have that one. We did have that one podcast about romance novels, but we just want to talk about how fiction can actually enhance your life and your marriage. In good ways. Interesting ways people may not have thought of. So that'll be a fun one. Very different to what we normally do.
And then we'll be back in August for the rest of the podcast. So thank you for joining us. All I hope we were we're gonna put all the podcast links, in the, in all the links that we mentioned in the podcast notes. But we'll see you next time. I'm Barrett. Bye bye.