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Bare Marriage
Episode 291: How Professor Neil Reaches Young Men Stuck in Misogyny
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Sheila Wray Gregoire interviews Professor Neil, a popular social media creator who critiques toxic masculinity and problematic topics he finds in the manosphere. They discuss how certain Christian pastors and influencers spread harmful messages about gender roles, sex, and marriage that mirror incel ideology. Through reviewing harmful clips from pastors Josh Howerton & Josh McPherson, professor Neil shares his approach to changing minds through facts and research.
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Sheila
Welcome to the Bare Marriage Podcast. I'm Sheila Wray-Gregoire from Bare Marriage.com, where we like to talk about healthy, evidence based biblical advice for your sex life and your marriage. And we are back. Our podcast came back after summer break last week. Where Rebecca and I were talking about how do we change people's minds who are deep into authoritarianism.
And that's going to be talking about over the next few weeks. And this week I have on a special guest, Professor Neil. And, you know, one of the fun things about being on social media is that a lot of people, a lot of you listeners send me reels, that you think are interesting. And one of the people that I am most likely to get reels about or from is Professor Neil.
So people are always sending me Professor Neil's reels, because he does a great job showing how a lot of Christian pastors and Christian influencers are just saying really dumb, offensive things about women, about sex, about marriage, about relationships. And he breaks it down and deconstructs it so well. And so as we're talking about how to change people's minds, how do we get people to see what healthy marriage looks like, what healthy sex looks like?
I just thought listening to Professor Neil and how he handles that might be a good idea.
So that's coming right up. Before we get to that, I do want to say a special thank you to the people who make this podcast possible. You know, I know that so many of you have read the Great Sex Rescue. You’ve been listening to the Bad Marriage podcast, and your life has been changed.
You've realized that Jesus does want freedom for you. Jesus does care about you. You do matter to God, and your marriage matters to God. And life is not supposed to be about just suffering. And God loves you as a woman.
And many people have just said, you know, I have just found such freedom. And I want other people to hear this message.
I want to get it out there. And so I want to tell you how you can partner with us to do that. You can join our Patreon group. We have, gosh, I don't know, about 600 people on our private Facebook group. It's super fun. We talk about all kinds of things. I often bounce things off of people before I share them on the podcast to see what everyone thinks.
It's just it's a great place. It's a safe place for us to go on the internet. And then we have people who maybe, they're in the US. They want to get some tax deductible receipts, and they have a bigger gift to give. And so you can do that through the Good Fruit Faith initiative of the Bosco Foundation.
And you can also just give on a monthly basis too. So if you want information on joining our Patreon or becoming a monthly donor, please see the links in the podcast notes. Because together we can get this message out and we can start to change hearts and minds. And now, without further ado, I'm going to bring on Professor Neil.
Sheila
Okay, people, I am so excited about this next guest I have with me, Professor Neil. You may know him from Instagram, Tik Tok, all kinds of different places. Love you, Professor Neil. Welcome to the podcast.
Professor Neil
Thank you so much for having me.
Sheila
And you are so your fellow is an Ontario. Like what are we? Are we Ontarians in Ontario?
Professor Neil
Yeah, yeah. It's Ontario is all those like the standard sort of A N suffix. Right. It's not like Moose Jaw or Halifax where they just.
Sheila
Yeah. What is it Halegonia? Haledonian
Professor Neil
It’s Halegonian and Moose Jaw is Moose Javian.
Sheila
Wow. Yeah. Well you learn some new Canadian.
Professor Neil
Little fun facts.
Sheila
Every day. But you live in northern Ontario. I live in southeastern Ontario, but we are still in the same province. And it is great to have you. You are? And what are you actually a professor of English? English?
Professor Neil
Yes, English. But my, my, grad research was in men, in masculinity and the representation of Men in masculinity in popular culture. So that's that's how I came sideways into this field that I'm working in right now.
Sheila
Okay. And many of you have probably seen Professor Neil's videos. So what you tend to do is you do stitches to, like, comment on something terrible that someone has said and you show why it's terrible. Yes. Extremely refreshing. We're very grateful.
Professor Neil
Yeah. And that, you know that too, happened by accident in just something that I started to do, honestly, for for fun.
Sheila
Yeah.
Professor Neil
My, my TikTok account was, about the stuff that I teach. You know, it was about, like, literary analysis, a lot of comic books because it plays really well on social media and, and, and, like my, my whole stitching and saying, hit me with it at the beginning of a video like that happened by accident.
And people thought it was really funny. So I'm like, oh, hey, maybe, maybe I, like, stumbled onto, to something here that that'll really work and speak to people.
Sheila
Yeah. How many years have you been doing it?
Professor Neil
I've been on social media for just over four years now.
Sheila
Okay. Yeah. Okay.
Professor Neil
Speaker 1
This particular focus is is a little more like two and a half.
Sheila
Right? Right. Well, I love it. Glad for what you do. And I just wanted to talk to you today because I thought our audience would be super interested because a lot of what you take on is the stuff that is right in our field. So looking at Evangelicals, especially American Christian, saying crazy stuff about gender and sex and marriage and relationships, etc. so I want to play a recent clip that you did.
So this is one of your I tried to find the most recent one that I thought would resonate with our with our audience. I'm just going to play it now. And so this is Professor Neil in action.
TikTok Man
What most men just don't get about women.
Professor Neil
Hit me with it.
TikTok Man
Women reciprocate. They do not initiate.
Professor Neil
Right off the bat. That is completely untrue. Even in traditional relationships, women are frequently initiating the conversations about what is happening with the kids this summer after school, on vacation, with meals, with clothes. Basically, any domestic task. This a purely ideological claim with no basis in reality.
TikTok Man
If you lead with purpose, she follows.
Professor Neil
She leads, you ou follow because, hey, we take turns. News flash: there’s are several instances in which men would do well to just follow.
TikTok Man
If you move with strength and confidence, she meets you with softness.
Professor Neil
I want to hit pause for a second on the point that he's actually making or not making as the case may be. To talk about this sort of rhetorical strategy that's been deployed here. Not unlike like conspiracy theorists or cultists, because ambiguous truisms like if you lead, she will follow. If you have strength, she will show softness. He is hoping that you will hear that and apply a sort of motivated reasoning.
You will operate with confirmation bias. Because sure, every good team that I've been on also had an effective leader. It only makes sense that the physically strongest people should do the heavy lifting, so that the physically weaker don't have to. Then he hopes that you will apply that reasoning to a situation that is entirely different, and not at all comparable, so that you lead yourself to the conclusion that he wants you to get to.
The problem is, this is an abuse of logic.
TikTok Man
If you make her feel loved, she makes you feel respected.
Professor Neil
If you really feel like you have to purchase respect from your partner in exchange for love in some sort of warped transaction, because you can't get respect any other way. You're in a whole lot of trouble.
TikTok Man
And if you slack, then she’ll pull back.
Professor Neil
As far as all of the overgeneralized dimensions that you shared so far goes? This is as close as anything gets decently reasonable, but it also works in both directions, in any direction, in any relationship. Which means it's just a personal observation and ideally so profound as his military dramatic delivery would maybe make you think it is.
TikTok
That's just the way feminine energy works. It responds in amplifies.
Professor Neil
It's not because feminine energy is not real. It's just a fancy way to say women's roles under patriarchy.
TikTok Man
So if you want more from her, you've got to get more from you.
Professor Neil
Look at that. A second statement that actually made sense, which is universally applicable to everyone and, painfully obvious.
TikTok Man
Because men initiate, women reciprocate.
Professor Neil
Doesn't matter how many times you repeat it. It will never be true.
Sheila
All right. You know, what I really like about this is that you did something crazy. Totally crazy, and that you used facts and stats.
Professor Neil
I mean, this is the benefit of having all of this experience in a classroom. Writing research papers. I'm really just taking what what I already do professionally and and moving it to. And this is no, like, small feat, but moving it to, like, that 1 to 3 minute format where it's just punchy, boom, boom, boom, but yeah, it's I'm probably making it sound like it's, so simple and anyone can do it, but I'm coming from 20 years of experience when it.
Sheila
Yes. Right.
Rebecca
If you're looking for a tangible way to change the conversation, make sure that for the next wedding shower that you attend, you get a copy of The Good Girl's Guide to Great Sex and The Good Guys Guide to Great Sex, because these are the books that will change the conversation for the next generation of married couples, introducing healthy, evidence based and biblical teachings from the get go.
Instead of having to wade through that toxic garbage for years before you finally find The Great Sex Rescue. So for the engaged couples in your life, why not get them the guides?
Sheila
Yeah. And one of the things I've really appreciated too, is that you use so much peer reviewed research, like, you know, you'll have on the background for those of you who were only listening. So if you're watching on YouTube, you saw the actual video, but if you're only listening, like in the background, Professor Neil will be talking and it'll have different journal articles and you'll be pointing to, you know, some of that.
This is this is what this journal article says and etc., etc.. Which yeah, I really appreciate that because it's like, let's just deal with some actual facts here.
Professor Neil
And, and you know, not that I want to assign homework to anyone when they're watching my videos. But I of course, I strongly encourage people to go seek these articles out. And, and if this is interesting or even if it's upsetting and you want to go in and debunk it yourself like, well, okay, here, here you go.
This is the title. This is the author. Go find it and have at it.
Sheila
Right. And do you get like, have you been noticed on the street? Where are you? Oh, you're in Sudbury. Is that. Yes, yes. So do people recognize you?
Professor Neil
You know, in Sudbury, not so often, but, I cannot walk down a sidewalk in, like, a major North American city, without people, saying hi, or just, you know, the strangest was, I was in Las Vegas walking down the sidewalk and, and a woman with her family just held her hand up and, and was like, so I, I high fived her.
And she said thank you, and just kept on going
Sheila
Just kept on going, I love it.
Professor Neil
And it's it's. Yeah, it's it's nice.
Sheila
And what about your students?
Professor Neil
Oh, my students. They are actually very funny about it. I will always know that a student is familiar with my work because they will find a way to work. Hit me with it into a conversation.
Sheila
I was going to say. Is that. Yeah. Hit me with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Professor Neil
So I'll ask a rhetorical question. And this happened recently and somebody in the room just went hit me with it. Okay. Yeah. Hey actually that contextually that worked really well. That was.
Sheila
Clever. Yeah.
Professor Neil
Or even more recent than that. Somebody just walked into the room and shouted it. And then, the only danger there is that it can really cause our conversations to go sideways, because they now want to know all about social media.
Sheila
Right? Yeah. Tell me how I can get famous.
Professor Neil
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's, unfortunately, I don't know if, you or anybody who is listening has seen that pyramid of, Spotify artists say, you know, you have the big chunk down here who the base of the pyramid will never make it. All right. And you have the tippy top, the the 1%, who like, if they're lucky, they'll make 100 bucks a month.
Sheila
Yeah.
Professor Neil
Unfortunately, social media works a whole lot like that.
Sheila
Yeah. Yeah, it absolutely does. And if you're a Canadian, it's even harder because some of the platforms don't pay if you're Canadian.
Professor Neil
Yeah. Oh yeah. That's I actually I'm I'm sorry. I'm like going off in all sorts of directions.
Sheila
Yeah.
Professor Neil
But I actually recently joined a group of social media content creators that is, trying to, to form our own little lobby group. To talk to government, to talk to platforms and also try and raise money to, to build a sustainable Canadian community of content creators. Because, yeah, TikTok isn't paying us.
Instagram isn't either. Facebook and YouTube do, but it's a lot of work.
To to build anything sustainable.
Sheila
Yeah. Absolutely. Okay. What I would love to do now is play some of the clips that my audience deals with on a constant basis, and I'll let you react to those. So I'll do I just I'll start with this one. A ton of people have sent me this. It's a clip from a sermon by a megachurch pastor named Josh McPherson.
You may recognize him, people with his trademark beard. He often does interviews along with Josh Howerton. So it's the two. Joshs. We'll hear from Josh Howerton in a minute. He's the famous one that did that wedding night terrible joke. Stand where he tells you the stand thing. People will know that, I did a huge podcast on that one that went viral, but this is Josh McPherson, good friend of Josh Howerton’s and he is talking about how terrible women are on Instagram.
So let's listen in.
Josh McPherson
Gotta get a handle on this issue of seduction in the life of the woman. If you wouldn't send me a picture, why would you post it on your Instagram page? That's the test you run ladies, when I send this picture to my pastor because my wife has shown me pictures of some of you on Instagram and you should be ashamed of yourselves.
It's like, oh, well, we read, you know. Didn't you see the asterisk there on the bottom of page 37,000? It says here women are to act modestly unless they're by water or on a boat, and then they're allowed to dress like the Proverbs five woman. Ask yourself, ladies, every picture of yourself. Ask yourself when I send this to Pastor Joshua's phone.
And if you wouldn't, don't post it online for a million men to ogle. By and large, men lust with their eyes and women seducing their bodies. God has a word to say for men who watch for it. And God has word to say for women who act out or dress like they'd like to.
Sheila
Okay, Neil, how about all of those women and their sin of seduction?
Professor Neil
Oh, God. You know, what is the first thing that I thought of here? And anytime somebody complains about, you know, women, seducing men. It is how these men love to pick and choose, right? It's it's it's the woman's fault for seducing you. And then we conveniently stay away. And, you know, I, full disclosure, I was raised Roman Catholic.
But but you know nothing about plucking out eyeballs.
Like, that's, Did did I just make that up? Was it a fever dream? Because nobody seems to pay a whole lot of attention to that line. And it causes me to think, actually, I have a friend who's, a biblical researcher who is very prominent on social media as well. His name is Dan McClellan.
Sheila
I love Dan McClellan. Yes.
Professor Neil
And, in the point that Dan McClellan makes here, and I think it is very apt, is that, these sorts of, you know, whether they're, they're, a pastor, a priest, another social media influencer, they're very good at negotiating the text to arrive at the answer in the interpretation that they want.
And, and I appreciate Dan here because he's always reminding us, that these, these books are rarely speaking as clearly and uniformly and universally, as men like
Josh McPherson, claim that they are.
There's, there's a lot of ambiguity. There is a lot is lost just in translation and in the, the moving from one cultural context to another. And I always try to keep in mind and repeat this as well, that, you know, this interpretation is an act where we come to it with a certain intention and a certain bias, and we're usually looking to confirm our bias.
Right? This is what I I'm guilty of this too. When I'm researching a video, I usually start from a place of I'm pretty sure that this is true. And so I'm going to look for something that validates what I believe to be true. And the important thing is that you don't stop right there. Right? Like, okay, well, but but but maybe maybe it's not true.
And I have to go look for the opposing argument too. I'm working on a book, and this happened to me literally yesterday. That that it was, is about, the psychological mindset of goal setting. So when you set yourself a goal, what's the most effective goal type of goal to set? And, and the first thing that I found.
Sheila
Well, okay, it's it's is it something that's. Well, it needs to be measurable I know that.
Professor Neil
The measurable part is the easy one I think so. So people are saying like you never say I'm going to do my best.
Sheila
Right. Because. Right.
Professor Neil
What, what is your standard. What's.
Sheila
Yeah I'm gonna, I'm going to increase sales by 22% in the first quarter. Yeah it.
Professor Neil
Should be. It's specific precise measurable. And where the disagreement comes out is that up until the 1990s, the research also said, that your goal should be modest. It should be moderate.
Sheila
It's okay.
Professor Neil
That you can achieve.
Sheila
Yeah, I thought that too. I was about to say it should be something relatively small. Yep.
Professor Neil
And so the research has shifted in the last few decades to say, actually, it should be, as difficult as you can tolerate. Okay, draw the line at the point where you are almost certain to fail and set your goal just below the.
Sheila
Isn't that kind of like weight training because you're supposed to like, like, choose weights and like to fit? What's it called? Failure or to.
Professor Neil
Yes, you.
Sheila
Can't do it.
Professor Neil
Yeah, exactly. So it's like choose the weight that you can lift eight times.
Sheila
Yeah.
Professor Neil
If you can lift it a ninth time then you went to light.
Sheila
Right.
Professor Neil
And embedded in that two hour. Okay. But but you should also have smaller goals that get you there. So maybe that modest goal is a goal that you set along the way to the ultimate goal.
But I went in there thinking like I was familiar with this. Like oh goals should be modest. Don't, don't set yourself up for failure by setting a goal that is too difficult to reach. And then I start doing the reading and I'm like oh oh wow. My my understanding is like firmly planted in the 1980s. Like I need to, to, to update my understanding of this whole field of study.
And to take that back as well to the sort of men that we're talking about here. Like that their understanding is, considerable older than 40 years.
Sheila
Well, yeah. What I think is so funny, too, is because there is one thing he said, which research in the last five years has disproven, which is that, you know, men were born to be visual and to have this sin of lusting and neuroscience research. The meta analysis from I think it was like 2019 and 2021, we've we've referenced them before, shows that women are just as visual, just in different ways.
Professor Neil
Absolutely. Yeah. And and you know, and it leads us to these like very self-deceptive places too. There's there's very interesting research on what men and women find attractive, both what we say we find attractive and then what, observation appears to discover we, you know, we actually find attractive which are largely the same. There is not a huge difference.
We're not we're not so unaware. Unself, the the big. Sorry, I, I have a habit of like, running off like a squirrel in two adjacent.
Sheila
But that's okay.
Professor Neil
The big difference is actually smell. We are not aware of how important smell is in attraction.
Sheila
Okay.
Professor Neil
And to evaluate that are self assessment very low. But then observed assessments say that it's actually like in the top five. Top five. Factors. But otherwise we're pretty good at self evaluating. An exception though is that men believe that physical attraction is more important in their self-assessment than is borne out by observation.
And women believe the opposite, that it's not very important in their self-assessment. But then observation says almost identical importance. So so we hear these lines, we hear these narratives, and we convince ourselves that it's true. And then you see, you know, men in actual relationships where, to an outside observer, and even if you were to ask them, you know, what is it about your partner, physical beauty, it's going to be there, but it's not at the top of the list.
And with women the same, but in reverse, that, in fact, it turned out to be more important than they would have thought if you would just ask them in the abstract.
Sheila
Right. That's so interesting. The other thing I think about this video is, as a woman sitting in that congregation, I am never going to tell his wife anything. Like, why is his wife bringing Instagram pictures to her husband of the woman in the, like that is weird.
Professor Neil
That detail was while, yeah, I know that there are so many of these men when they start telling stories and and you wonder, like, is there no such thing as, like, privileged communication?
Sheila
Yeah. Like like. Yeah. So. So you got your wife's, like, scrolling around the parishioners social media so that she can tattle on them, like, that's just weird.
Professor Neil
Yeah. Like she's she's policing them.
Sheila
Yeah.
Professor Neil
Yeah. Not, not this sort of community that that I would be eager to join.
Sheila
No no no. Exactly. Okay. Here's, here's another gendered one. This clip is from the end of a marriage conference. So, Josh and his wife, Jana Howerton, had just. This is a different a Josh. This is the one without the beard. They had just done this marriage conference, and, they had a question about what to do when a husband in a marriage was being very, you know, inappropriate, was hurting the wife.
I mean, you could interpret the question as being downright abusive, but it wasn't clear in the question they were answering. And so here was Josh's answer.
Josh Howerton
Encouragement in the mouth of a woman is strong in the heart of a man. I hear this a lot like man. You'll hear me talk about wives respecting and following the leadership of husbands people will say, yeah, but I'll respect him when he's respectable. Listen, you cannot disrespect a man into respectability. Give him a crown.
And then he becomes a king. So our job is to speak into him what God sees in him. And then he becomes that
Sheila
I think that's perfect advice, Neil. Don't you think? I mean, if he's being an idiot, just treat him like he's wonderful.
Professor Neil
Yeah, that'll that'll solve everything. Right.
Sheila
Won’t it?
Professor Neil
You know, this is another one of those instances where I find the rhetoric that they employ really ironic. Because who who is really the leader in that situation? Yeah. Is it the person wearing the crown or the person who has the ability to place the crown on anyone's head?
Sheila
Yeah.
Professor Neil
Who can deny you the crown? In fact, I'm like, it sounds they're like like the the wife is the one who is totally in control. And they don't they don't get that. They don't see any irony there. You would think that if, men are the the natural leaders of the household, why do they need someone to tell them that they are the leader?
To choose them.
Them? Like, why can't he pull himself together all on? So, yeah, it's just it's it's this odd, contradictory space that they seem to expect women to occupy, where they're, they're constantly either being mother to their spouse, or they're expected to obey them like a child.
And, and that is such an awkward and strange position to put your.
Sheila
Yeah. And at the same time, you're looking after him, doing all the mental and housework. So he's your dependent too. So it's all just. Yeah, it's all a big fat mess. The other thing that I find so interesting, and I find that evangelical preachers do this a lot, is they juxtapose or they, they make this false dichotomy of either you are respecting him and giving him this crown, or you are disrespecting him.
So, you know, you can't disrespect a man into respectability, but like there is a whole lot of stuff between those two extremes, and they just never say that that's possible.
Professor Neil
Yeah. Like there's no room here, for what we would call an equal relationship, right? There's no shared responsibility, shared leadership. When when people start talking in terms of leading, you know, I think that that's that's not necessarily, a harmful way to be talking about relationships, but, how about we talk about how, we alternate taking the lead?
This this is something that happens in my own relationship where we are constantly checking in, and where, you know, in some ways, my wife and I, do sometimes occupy those sort of traditional gender roles. She's she's currently, a stay at home mom to our one year old. She's also a working actor.
So she happens to have a job that that is very flexible most of the time. So, so our lifestyle just just happens to work out that she has this, this role that two outside appearances looks like it's very tradition. And that's not necessarily bad. So. So she's taking the lead, on a day to day basis with, with parenting.
Because I'm working. She's at home. Nothing wrong with that. It's when we start to to figure a relationship is having a single leader, which you and I both know isn't true, because he probably doesn't know how to work the dishwasher or do the laundry. So it's happening in his own home. But that just doesn't fit into the the narrative that they build and the story that they tell.
Sheila
Yeah, yeah. It's just it really is crazy. And it's like in all of these narratives, you can see this, this common theme of you can't expect a man to do the right thing unless the woman first does it. Right. So if she's got a picture up on Instagram, you know, obviously he's going to lust, right? If she isn't respectful, then obviously he's going to treat her badly like.
Professor Neil
And and you know this. Yeah. This also gets back to a point that that I like to make at least once a week. Which is that whether it is a lot of these social media pastors or, you know, it's something someone like an Andrew Tate, that no one hates men the way that they do.
No one thinks less.
Sheila
Yes.
Professor Neil
Of men than they do. Because what what you take away from this is, Well, men are unthinking monsters who cannot control their most basic urges, to be the worst person imaginable unless they have a woman who is capable of taming and controlling. Wow. Like, do you hear yourself talking? There's, like, I am sometimes accused of of being a man hating man.
For thinking that, you know, we are all capable of self-control and self-regulation and being good to other people like that. But that's the man hating part. Guys look in the mirror.
Sheila
Yeah, I know, it's like. It's like I believe that men can be honorable. I believe that men can be good guys. And somehow that makes me a man hater, because I'm saying, hey, you know what? Not all men lust. Hey, you know what? Not all men look at a woman and immediately undress her. Some people actually respect women's opinions.
Like, how can you say that you're a man hater. Yeah I know, I don't know why more men aren't offended I really don't, I don't know why more men don't walk out of sermons when pastors are saying stuff like this.
Professor Neil
And, you know, the, the short answer there is that they're, they're getting something from it. Right? That they're, they're reaping some sort of bonus or benefit and a lot of the time it's, it can be very comfortable to sit in that space of, Oh, like, treat me like a child in these circumstances. But treat me like your father in these circumstances.
And, Oh, it just so happens that, you know, these situations alternate to my benefit all the time.
Sheila
Yeah. And in one end, no matter which situation it is, always give me sex on demand. So.
Professor Neil
Totally. Yeah. Okay. If you don't care a whole lot, about the the health and happiness of the people that you're interacting with. I think that sounds like a great scenario to be.
Sheila
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Okay, so you mentioned about these social media pastors and there are quite a few of them. There's obviously there's the two Joshs there's Mark Driscoll, there's all kinds who do crazy stuff online. What is your impression like as an outsider? Like what do you think when you see these?
Professor Neil
Wow. I mean, so many thoughts that a lot of the time. And this is actually very funny. I have responded. I have stitched, I have critiqued, at this point, a couple hundred different men on social media.
And what's actually very striking about it is that if I don't know who they are before I see the video, in most cases, unless they have a giant cross in the background, which some of them do, I think Mark Driscoll often has, the iconography behind him. I wouldn't know. I would not be able to tell the pastor from the misogynist dating coach, who who is very honest and open about the fact that he thinks that, women are objects, and that they are there to be used instrumentally.
And, you know, when, when you find a better one, get rid of this one and replace her or, you know, collect as many as possible, like their Pokemon.
Sheila
Right?
Professor Neil
Like, until I click on their bio or I see something where, they're reciting a Bible verse, I wouldn't know one from the other. Which which is kind of horrifying.
Sheila
It is. Okay. So here is the $64,000 question. And this is what keeps me up at night. How do we get through to people who believe like this and who watch these guys, like, do you are you making a difference? I mean, I like to believe you're making a difference, but I watched all your videos.
But I already agree with you.
Professor Neil
Sure.
Sheila
So is it breaking through? Do you think?
Professor Neil
Everybody who works in the space that I work in and we share these stories, we talk to each other? Everyone has stories of breaking through to people. I, I receive messages, on a pretty regular basis, either from, men who, who say that, you know, something wasn't sitting right with me. I didn't have the vocabulary.
I didn't have the words to put to it. But something that I saw in your video clicked. So that that does happen, I hear from actually even more often I hear from the partners and mothers.
Sheila
The moms? Okay.
Professor Neil
To say that they share my videos with the men in the boys in their lives, in that they have conversations, you know, them,
Rebecca
Speaker 3
Hey, you. Yes. You just been listening to the podcast for a year or two already. Who has not yet gotten the Great Sex Rescue or She Deserves Better. What are you waiting for? You know that they're good. You've been listening to us for weeks. It's time for you to understand what the fuss is all about.
We hear from people all the time who say, listen, I've been listening to your podcast for two years, and I finally read She Deserves Better. And I had that breakthrough because it's put together in a completely different way than these podcasts are.
So hey, stop putting it off by our book. You know you like us already, so why don't you just head out over there and grab it?
Professor Neil
Now, I also get messages from angry men. So I'm certainly not reaching everyone. But my hope is that there are enough of us operating in this space and that we take a variety of different approaches.
You know, I, I have, friends, colleagues who, are more combative than I am and really take an approach of, of shaming and ridiculing men who hold these beliefs. And then on the other hand, men who approach it much more like they are, a counselor, in, in trying to invite people in.
And that works for some people as well. So my hope here is that there is a large enough variety of voices and approaches that someone will be able to speak, a language that will breakthrough.
Sheila
Yeah, because I think I tend to be more on your side and that I really like sharing, you know, the peer reviewed research and say, okay, this person is claiming that this is true, but it's actually the opposite, right? Like women are just as visual or whatever, like marriage is. And this is what we've found. You know, marriage, is that where he makes the final decision actually do worse then marriage is where you have a full partnership, etc., etc., etc..
That's a hard sell though, because people are so against research like, oh, you can't trust research, you can't trust data, it's science is all biased, etc., etc. there's
Professor Neil
There's this, story. It's become a meme that gets shared on social media now, and it's it's apocryphal story. I'm not I'm somebody could have very well invented it. But it was somebody saying they ran into somebody at a dinner party who said that they believe anyone's mind can be changed. You just gotta show them the truth.
And the person telling the story, said, well, actually, research shows that our confirmation bias is so strong that even when we are met with the truth, it's far more likely that we will double down on what we believe to be true in the first place. And the person who had been arguing, you can change anyone's mind, and they say, well, I don't think that's true.
And I think about that when, when I'm making these videos. Right. That knowing that, certainly any one video that I make is unlikely to change somebody's mind all on its. But it's not universally true that people are allergic to data. And, and I just have to find an opening. Maybe this video will, will crack the door open just a bit, but that's all you need if you're willing to watch another or entertain a prolonged discussion about this topic. I don't, I don't expect that, you know, a two minute video posted to Instagram, is going to rewire somebody's brain. But we also know that that the algorithms might pick up on the fact that, oh, hey, you watched that entire video, and then you left a comment. Well, maybe you'll want to see another one.
Sheila
And side note here, people, please listen to what Neil just said about algorithms, because this is why when you hate watch it like when you hate watch a video of someone is super toxic. You're going to get more of that in your feed, but you're also giving them engagement so that the algorithm will show that hateful video to other people.
So let's stop hate watching. Okay, I'm off my soapbox. Yes.
Professor Neil
No. Excellent point. And I the other note that I want to add here is, that I also have, this like a very self-conscious approach that I'm taking and, and, and I'm also conscious of the fact that men are more likely to listen to me, because I am a man, first of all. And there's research out there as well that says men are far more likely to listen to men.
It's unfortunate. And, and hopefully I can be a gateway to listening to women. But but I have that little in and I'm going to take it, and I'm, I also do it with the style that I employ. Like, I'm, I am loud, I am sarcastic, I can be a little combative and aggressive sometimes. And this is a very conscious decision to, sound. And you see it structurally in the videos that I make. I'm taking the fight to them. I'm not just, trying to to to reason and be compassionate with men in the manosphere. I'm, I'm trying to knock them down a peg, because I know that that sort of style is appealing to the sort of men that I'm trying to reach to.
And again, not not for everyone. And it's not going to work with everyone, but but no, no one person is going to be everyone's cup of tea.
Sheila
Yeah. And we need everybody. We need everybody in the fight for sure. I mean, one of the things that always strikes me, and I know you've picked up on this a lot, some of the other people who are in similar spaces do as well. But how much these guys are telling on themselves, like, like, dude, do you not realize what you just admitted?
Professor Neil
Like it's. Yeah, it's wild. Especially when they, What what they're describing feels so incredibly niche and specific.
Sheila
Yeah.
Professor Neil
And I'm like, wow. Like just just doing like a cursory look at the research on this would tell you that what you're describing is, is like your experience is, is not common at all.
Like you need to really do some really, deep introspection here. Because yeah, this is especially when they admit to something scary.
Sheila
Yeah, yeah. And I, I mean, for me, because we talk about sex so much on this podcast, but the guy that we're about to listen to on one of his podcasts, he made a really big deal about how you can't tell if a woman is aroused.
Dude.
Professional Neil
Like like all of the guys who, who don't believe in female orgasm.
It's like, oh dude. Do you know what you're saying right now?
Sheila
And they're saying it with their whole chest. Like they're putting it out there. And it's like nobody went to him, you know like like these videos that have been live for ten years or something and nobody went to him and said, you might want to take that down like, oh yeah, anyway.
Professor Neil
But you can't save people from themselves when they're no cases.
Sheila
But it's, it's amazing how how the lack of insight when you're in a community which is so insular. Where this is the norm. Okay. So speaking of Emerson, let's listen. This is a clip from a sermon. So it's not a reel. This is just a clip that I took which and we've talked about this before, a couple of years ago on this podcast, but where he's talking about men stonewalling and, and wanting to punch someone in the middle of an argument.
So let's just listen.
Emerson Eggerichs
But the men. Why were these men withdrawing? Well, members, they said today they were measuring the BPMs, the beats per minute of the heart. And during these conflicted moments, the men's heart beats got to 99 beats per minute. That's warrior mode. So when a man is in that kind of state, he has to calm down. And he knows if he continues to have this face to face heated fellowship, it's going to escalate.
And he doesn't want it to escalate because men know physiologically they can lose that. So they have to withdraw because that's honorable among us as men. The honor code dominates. So when we're in heated moments with our best buddy, we drop it, forget it, and we exit because the relationship exceeds this issue on the table. You are more important to me than this topic.
And when we had that moment, my best friend doesn't go. Emerson, you come back and talk to me.
He's not in my face because he's not insecure about this. But when a woman is insecure and that disconnect happens, it's threatening at the core of her being.
Sheila
Okay. So when he gets really upset, Neil, he's being honorable and he leaves.
Professor Neil
Yeah. I guess if if the choice is only punch somebody in the teeth or walk out the door and there's no other option available to us. I guess in that one circumstance I can almost understand. And then I remember that. No, I can also, you know, learn emotional self-regulation.
Sheila
Yes.
Professor Neil
I can do breathing exercises to calm myself down. I can communicate like a grown up. Yeah. This is is wild. And it's exactly what you were describing with the like. How do you not realize you're telling on yourself?
Sheila
Yeah. This guy. Yeah. He took he took, research from John Gottman. And John Gottman found that 85% of people who stonewall are male. Okay. And what Emerson has talked about in his book is that 85% of men are Stonewallers.
Professor Neil
This. You know what? This this actually reminds me of, is there there are stats being misrepresented all over social media right now, people that just don't seem to,
understand
Sheila
And for wait for those of you who didn't get the difference, okay, all poodles are dogs. Not all dogs are poodles. Okay? 95% of men are murderers. 95% of murderers are men. They're not the same thing. Okay. Go ahead. Yes.
Professor Neil
Yeah. No, no. And that's actually, a great example right there. And I think people that makes it obvious to people. Right. When if likewise. Like 98, 99% of, of people who sexually assault are men does not mean that 99% of men will sexually assault someone. I see this, this same error is made, for example, if you see something like, I think the, the number that gets recited is 70 or 75% of same sex couples between women will divorce.
Sheila
Yes.
Professor Neil
And it's like no, that was a study out of Britain. It said of all same sex couples that divorced, 75% of them were women, 25% were men. Which seems it still seems high. But then the majority of same sex couples in Britain are between women.
Sheila
Right.
Professor Neil
So actually the difference is not very large at all, and certainly not 75% of all couples, just 75% of the divorces that happened in a given year.
And part of the what makes this difficult to push back against, you know, is just that, they see it so quickly and it sounds so good. And here I was trying to explain. Well no, it doesn't work like that. It took me a minute to get through it and explain it. And and even when, when you were offering, you know, I, you know, this is, it's this kind of error.
It's so much more work. To explain how and why they're wrong.
Sheila
Yes. Yeah. And it's so much easier just to just to latch on to it for sure. Yes. So when you're okay here, let's do let's do one more. Yeah. What. Because we're on a roll here. So we'll we'll revisit Josh McPherson talking about a woman's, the basic woman's curse okay. Because this is this is what we hear all the time.
This is women's biggest problem. So here we go.
Josh McPherson
The curse element is I think I can do it better, I talk more, I'm more relationally intuitive. I know the kids better than he does. I think I can do his job better. I want his job. I aspire to his job. I'm going to undermine his authority. He tries to exercise his job. This is women, your curse, which only the gospel can unravel because your natural position is to doubt him, to question him and to usurp him.
Sheila
All right. This is I mean, it's to me talking to you. This is embarrassing. That this is what is taught in evangelical churches. This is just embarrassing.
Professor Neil
This, well, there's so much going on. Like what struck me, and and he was not at all subtle about it is the description of women, as, like, satanic?
Sheila
Yeah.
Professor Neil
Like all of the adjectives that he was listing there at the end, like an important reminder that as much as these guys seem to hate men, they hate women even more. Women are just pure evil. I like to hear him talk about women. I can't believe that, he could ever be capable of liking, much less loving one.
What? Why would why would you ever want to get married if that's how women are? Like, yeah, it's wild.
Sheila
Yeah. And it's just, it's this framing too, of like, every time she disagrees with him, she's trying to usurp his authority. And it's like, what if she disagrees with him because she's right.
Professor Neil
Oh, totally.
Sheila
And that's missing from the whole conversation is the fact that she might actually know more than him.
Professor Neil
And there's no potential that like, she she just wants him to step up and be better and be his best self.
Sheila
Yeah.
Professor Neil
It's like, no, she could only be questioning if she plans to overthrow him. So. So there's no ability for us to to help one another or support one another. It's it's all a ruse. I guess.
Sheila
Yeah.
Professor Neil
And like, also, sort of embedded in there is, is. Yeah. The, the assumption, that he's totally right. She shouldn't question him because I can only imagine he's never wrong.
Sheila
Yeah. And they and they would say it's like a worst sin to call out your husband for being wrong than it is for him to be wrong. And like if he, if he's wrong and he leads the family down a bad path, well, at least they're following God's natural order. And so God will bless them for at least following God's natural order.
But it's like it's so that that is better than her speaking up and saying, hey, this would actually be a better thing to do.
Professor Neil
Yeah. Like, yeah. And and I hear in there too, echoes of, sort of your, your more standard victim blaming. Because if, if she doesn't question if she doesn't push back when he is very obviously doing the wrong thing. Then after the fact, we're almost certain to hear like, well, well, why didn't you speak up?
Why didn't you say something? Yeah. If you knew that it was wrong, why didn't you stop it? So there is no way to win here?
Sheila
No. There's no way for a woman to do it right. Absolutely no way. So as you listen to, like, you know, Josh McPherson, say this stuff, I'm scared. This really does sound a lot like Andrew Tate, right? Like this sounds a lot like all these incels.
Professor Neil
Yeah.
Sheila
And how concerning is that to you that this stuff is growing in popularity?
Professor Neil
Oh, very. When my, my older daughter, had her, eighth grade graduation a couple of years back, they gave all of the students an opportunity to put an inspirational quotes on the projector that was playing during the beginning of the ceremony. And half a dozen kids chose Andrew Tate’s quotes.
Sheila
Oh, my.
Professor Neil
Gosh, we're talking about 13, 14 year olds. Yeah. He he is everywhere. This, overtly misogynistic language of the man. It's fear is everywhere. It's in evangelical sermons. And as much as I would like to believe that, and I know that that we're making a difference, we're pushing back. But there's so many more of them than there are people doing the sort of work that I'm doing.
And, I'm glad to see that the number of men, talking about healthy masculinity and positive masculinity in to our vocally anti misogynist is increasing. But I don't know that our numbers are increasing at the same rate that their numbers are increasing. So it really does feel sometimes, like we're, we're I don't know if you've seen the, the video that was posted recently, there was a flood in Venice and somebody to be funny was bailing out the sidewalk.
Well, the canal was higher than the sidewalk dumping buckets of water right onto the sidewalk. I mean, it does feel that way sometimes, you know, when I'm feeling, a little more pessimistic. Yeah, about things. But we just we just have to. We have to keep on pushing back and talking, because there's there's no other option.
Sheila
With Gen Z and Gen Alpha, it seems like there's such a big divide because on one hand, my impression of of Gen Z. And are you teaching Gen Alpha right now? Like, is that where we're at, or are they not at university yet?
Professor Neil
No, because they would right now. They would. I know because the the cutoff is just below my older daughter.
Sheila
Okay. So you still got Gen Z
Professor Neil
So they're their Gen Alpha is just entering high school now okay.
Sheila
So so you've got Gen Z. So I feel like so many of, young men and I know a lot in my own life who are so much healthier than my Gen X counterparts where at that age, you know, like, they they know how to talk about their feelings. They're very respectful of women. They're totally like, they don't freak out if someone's breastfeeding in public.
They, you know, like there's there's super, super, great. But then there's this divide where if they're not great, they are so far down the road.
Professor Neil
Yeah, yeah. And, and I think that this, owes a lot to the, the way that especially online, we live in our own little subcultural bubbles. Right. Yeah. And even like, I would describe myself as terminally online. And I also have, you know, for better and worse, people are always sharing videos with me. I don't have to encounter this stuff organically. People send it.
Sheila
I know I'm the same way whenever I critique something or do things because someone sent it to me. Like, I don't go around watching this stuff. Yeah.
Professor Neil
And so I feel like that's less true of me than it is of most people, because I'm not just following my algorithm. People are bringing me things from outside all of the time. I still needed to sit down with, a YouTube explainer. The first time I heard the word skibbity, it. And it's like, what?
And at that point, it had been around for months.
Sheila
I don't know what it is.
Professor Neil
Skip it. Toilet. Okay. It's, I could not possibly do it justice. I could describe it to you. And I wouldn't blame me if you were like, you're just making this up on the spot and you're doing a bad job because it has to do with a YouTube war between heads that pop out of toilets and sing a Bulgarian folk song to techno music in their war against the camera heads.
Sheila
Okay, this was not a phenomenon I was familiar with. Yup.
Professor Neil
But you know, like ten year olds love it.
And yeah, you can, you can like go find this committee toilet explainer. There's a guy on YouTube who, who has like a multi-part series where he really gets into it. It's so strange. But you know, there are those of us who exist in a world where Skibbity toilet never reaches us, despite it being the biggest thing.
My tweens and and those tweens. Like, like I'm just another middle aged dad. I'm like, who are you? Like, yeah, we live. We exist in these worlds. We socialize, we make friends, we build community. But they may be entirely distinct from the experience of, like, anyone, in our daily, in real life, which is not an experience that you or I would have had.
Like we. No, even even if we had different social circles in the towns where we grew up or the schools that we attended. We were at least aware, that they existed. We had some sense of the hierarchy that they fit into and the rules, the social expectations. And, and now they're so, so little of that appears to be the case, especially when we're operating online.
Sheila
Yeah, yeah. And there's such a big overlap between the incel and the church that it's getting really scary out there.
Professor Neil
So I describe it as like the tendrils of the manosphere now reach out into so many different spaces. It's why, you know, 15 year old, looking for fitness advice. And there have been multiple studies of apps now, that show that all you have to do is click male when you create an Instagram account or a TikTok account, and within half an hour you will be exposed to the manosphere.
It doesn't matter why you're there, doesn't matter what your interest is, the algorithms know that by virtue of being a young man, this is probably going to appeal to you. And, and part of that is, is, you know, just part of the design of the algorithm. And, but that's it's also intentional because then these “man coaches” recognize that, okay, if the algorithm is going to feed me, the 15 year old who just wants to figure out how to build muscle, then maybe I can I can cut down that half hour if I start offering fitness coaching too, right.
If I have an e-book about how to to build muscles and get jacked, and it does not surprise me that they would also see opportunity then in religion. Yeah, I'd say like, oh, here's another place where they're looking for identity and community and belonging. Hey, I've, I've already cornered the market on that in my way. Those are transferable skills.
I’ll start marketing myself to them too.
Sheila
Yeah. So scary. Well, we really appreciate what you're doing to push back. And, you're funny. That helps.
Professor Neil
Thank you.
Sheila
And using facts, it's all great. So I'm going to share, professionals accounts in the podcast out. So go check them out, subscribe. Watch this stuff, share his stuff and don't hate watch. Remember people do not hate watch. Do not drive the algorithm in the wrong direction.
Professor Neil
Don't. Don't feed the monster.
Sheila
Don't feed the monster. Do you have do you have hope for the students in your class? Like are you noticing hopeful signs at all?
Professor Neil
I do, yeah, you know the the most important thing and sort of the starting point for all of this I think is curiosity.
If there is a willingness, a some open mindedness, you know, like I was saying before, if you can get crack the door open just a little bit, then there will be a willingness to communicate, and maybe the potential to build community around. Yeah. And that's. Yeah, my, my students, I have a bit of an advantage there, which is that, you know, they're there to listen to me talk.
Sheila
Yes. They can't leave in the same. Yeah.
Professor Neil
So so that's and you know, they they already take me seriously. They, they already see me as a type of authority. You know, in much the same way that these men standing in front of a congregation do, even if, you know, we would argue that they're they're not using the opportunity to educate, but, you know, to to indoctrinate.
Sheila
Indoctrinate. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks, Neal. You know, again, you have a good, semester as it starts again in September. Enjoy the end of your summer.
Professor Neil
Thank you.
Sheila
So appreciate Professor Neil's voice. You know, we need all kinds of different voices and I think it's actually kind of sad that we have to have a professor from a secular university, calling out Christians because they're doing such a bad job of representing Christ, and that's embarrassing. It shouldn't be that way.
But it is. And I'm grateful that his voice is there. And I'm also hoping that maybe our voice gets loud enough that pastors stop saying such stupid things. So that's the prayer going forward, is that the evangelical church will just get healthier. And so, thank you for listening. Thank you for spreading the word. Another way you can help is to subscribe to the podcast.
Wherever you're listening or watching. Subscribe on YouTube, subscribe on your latest, your your favorite podcast app, and remember to leave a review if you've read any of our books. Great Sex Rescue, the Marriage You Want. She Deserves Better, The Good Girl’s Guide to Great Sex, and The Good Guy’s Guide to Great Sex Remember to leave reviews. Rate them five stars.
Tell people how great they are because the more you leave reviews, the more people see them and buy the books too. So that's another way that you can get the message out there and we can change people's minds. So thank you for joining us and we will see you again next week on the Better podcast. Buh bye.