Episode 292: Hear Sheila Answer Men’s Questions about Healthy Marriage & Sexuality

Recently Sheila was on the Three Percent podcast, talking about what healthy marriage looks like. The hosts asked Sheila questions a lot of skeptical men had—so we thought the bigger Bare Marriage universe needed to hear this! Listen in as they play devil’s advocate, and ask the questions so many men have when they hear what we say about libido, about mental load, about porn, and more! Let’s change the convo in a healthy way. And thanks to the Three Percent podcast for letting us share this recording!

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction: Reaching Men Caught in Toxic Teaching
• 7:22 Defining Healthy Masculinity
• 11:36 Sheila's Journey from Mommy Blogger to Marriage Researcher
• 17:43 The Five Toxic Premises of Evangelical Marriage Teaching
• 21:15 How Subtle Harm Becomes Normalized for both genders
• 32:37 What Does The Data Say About Building A Healthy Marriage?
• 44:39 Moving from Unconscious Incompetence to Partnership
• 51:39 Breaking the Shame Cycle Around Sex and Intimacy
• 1:06:25 Hope: How Small Changes Create Ripple Effects for hope and positive change
• 1:08:19 Conclusion & The ways you can support and share the message of Bare Marriage

Transcript

Sheila

How can we reach Christian guys that are getting caught up in the every man's battle philosophy that are being taught that they deserve to be in charge, that they are in authority over women, and that the biggest problem in sex is that women won't give it to them enough. And not that they don't really understand that sex is supposed to be intimate.

That's why we're gonna be talking about today on the Bare Marriage podcast. I'm Sheila Wray Gregoire from baremarriage.com where we like to talk about healthy, evidence based biblical advice for your sex life and your marriage. And you know, one of the things that we're talking about in season nine, which just launched, we just came back from our vacation, is how do we reach people who are still in the thick of it and it's been quite the month in the news.

You know, we've had high profile, evangelical leaders, like Doug Wilson profiled on CNN. 

Him and his supporters calling for the repeal of the 19th amendment, which allowed women to vote. We had the Secretary of Defense, the fourth in line to the presidency, retweeting that and agreeing with it. It's it's it's we're in the middle of a difficult season.

Right? 

And the thing about Doug Wilson is that he's not an outlier, okay? People are treating him like he's an outlier. But all that he is saying is what has been said in mainstream evangelicalism for years. He's just saying it out loud. He's just, you know, but what Doug Wilson is talking about is the logical extension of our bestsellers like Love and Respect, like Every Man's Battle, like Lies Women Believe.

You know, when we tell women that they're a little bit less equal, should we be surprised when people then talk about women like they're a lot less equal? As soon as you make women less equal, whether it's a little, little or a lot, it's going to end up in the same place. And so today, as we were talking about how to change people's minds, I want to do something I've never done before, which is I want to play an interview that I did when I was a guest on another podcast.

Earlier this summer, I was on a podcast called the 3% podcast, and the guys are going to tell you why they call it 3%. I really like their ideas there, but it was two guys, I believe they're therapists, who have this podcast trying to help men, you know, delve deeper, get to that extra 3% that that everyone holds back.

And, what they ended up doing was asking me some questions that we often get in the comments on social media from men, especially, who are disagreeing with us, who are pushing back. And these guys, they weren't disagreeing with me, actually. They were just playing devil's advocate. They were asking the questions that so many men want to ask.

And I just thought, you know what? Maybe that would be a good one to play so that you guys can all hear what I would say. And sometimes it's interesting to hear podcasts that I'm the guest on because it's like I'm wrapping up everything that I believe about one thing in one podcast. When you listen to our podcast, we usually go super, super deep on one particular thing, whereas here we're talking about everything in one podcast.

And so it's a little bit different. And they gave me their permission to share this entire podcast with you. And so I'm going to let them introduce it. And then we will listen in. 

Blake

Hey everybody. This is not somebody from the Bare Marriage team. I'm Blake Roberts.

Jamie 

And I'm Jamie Haig. 

Blake 

And we are both therapists and co-host of the 3% podcast.

And we wanted to take a second to just record a quick, specialized intro for you, because we had the privilege of having Sheila on our show, and she wanted to release the episode to her audience, and we were just so grateful that she was able to come on and have this conversation with us. We've been impacted by her work as therapists and as followers of Jesus, and it was a rich conversation, about many important things.

And we know that you as her audience have been deeply impacted by the work that they are doing. So we really just hope this conversation is a gift to you and that it continues to just further the conversation of what does it look like to be more honest and more vulnerable with ourselves, so that we can heal from a lot of the harm that we've experienced?

Jamie

And 3% is a men's mental health community, based on the idea that at our very best, we are generally 97% honest, and it's the 3% that we keep to ourselves of emotions, needs, desires that keep us bound to shame and loneliness from which a lot of these other issues stem. So today with Sheila, we talked about how we can vulnerably share with our spouses so that we can try to get on the same team. So pull up a chair and let's get into this. 

Blake 

Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of the 3% podcast. Today on the show, we're welcoming someone who has been leading a pretty, honest, research based and much needed conversation around healthy sex, marriage and faith, and especially in spaces that typically avoid the hard stuff. We have Sheila Wray Gregoire on today.

She's the speaker, bestselling author, the founder of Bear Marriage, which is, I'm sure we'll talk about more more about what that is. I know it's a lot of different things. It's an amazing podcast that has over 200, close to 300 episodes, maybe just full of wisdom and important conversations. And it's where her and her team are helping people untangle harmful teachings and rebuild relationships that are grounded in emotional health, mutual respect and scripture.

And she's written several books, including The Great Sex Rescue, She Deserves Better, and her latest book, which we're going to talk about today, The Marriage You Want, which was co-written with her husband, Doctor Keith Gregoire, which I'm sure that was a really fun, exciting journey to write a book together. And it's all about moving beyond stereotypes to build a marriage you want, that you don't just survive, but one that you genuinely love. 

And so for the people that are new to this episode, if you've skipped past the intro really quick, the concept of 3% is that at our absolute best we're 97% honest with ourselves and others, and it's the 3% the things that most typically bring us shame, that we keep to ourselves, that keep us stuck in shame and loneliness.

So what we wanted to do on this show with our guests is bring on people that embody sharing the 3% in their own lives and in the work that they do and why I was excited to have Sheila on the show is because she, they do just that. 

They have really hard conversations and, and challenge popular Christian teachings that have, and dynamics that have hurt people, that have abused people, just stereotypes and all these different things.

And they also offer something better, something that is a partnership, which is what, again, we'll get into today. And so she, she really models, having vulnerable and honest conversations about things that we typically avoid in a way to lead us closer to each other and to God. So, Sheila, welcome to the show. We're glad to have you.

Sheila

Thank you. It's good to be here. 

Blake 

Yeah. One thing we like to start off is we haven't done it with every guest, but we want to get in the habit. 

Jamie 

We want to get in the habit of it. That's right. 

Blake 

How would you asking every guest this question? How would you define healthy or holistic, is kind of the word we use, masculinity?

Sheila

I think it's about initiative. It's somebody who takes initiative to notice the things around them that need caring for, and then takes responsibility for the things that they can take responsibility for. And I think the reason why that's a masculine trait is because there's so many things in a woman's life which just happened to her that she has very little control over.

You know, when you're pregnant, your body changes and there's nothing you can do when you're in labor. 

You know, you cannot put it off like it is just happening to you. When you have a baby, that baby needs you. You have to feed it like there's so many things that happen to women that they can't do anything about.

But with men, it's a choice. And so you think about Philippians two, where it says that where to have the mind of Christ because he didn't consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing. And that's the thing. Men have the ability and the privilege to walk through life without having to care for others.

Yeah, so healthy masculinity is putting that privilege aside and saying, no, I'm going to take the initiative to notice when people need help, and I'm going to use my strength, etc., to help them. 

Jamie 

Oh. Wow. Yeah, I I don't think I was quite prepared for that. 

Blake 

She's ready. 

Jamie 

Yeah. To think about being able to walk through life with the privilege of not having to extend care to others.

And you can see that on display from a number of men in positions of authority. 

I know there's also this push back against, you know, there's a lot of young men hearing like the traits about you are bad, too much or like the way you're holding them is harmful. 

And I want to be careful to frame up what you are saying as an opportunity and not just something that's inherently like, you don't do this well and this is wrong with you.

So what I hear you saying is it's a beautiful gift that men or trait that men can have to use strength to care well for those around them. 

Sheila

Yeah. Because if God created both of us to be helpless and very, you know, very, constrained by a baby, by whatever, then humanity would be in a whole pile of hurt, you know?

So, like, we need somebody who is, to a certain extent, free from that so that they can still get the food when she can't get out of bed. So that he can still, you know, do all of these things, make sure that everyone is taken care of. And so, you know, I think that's what masculinity is, is realizing, wow, I have the freedom, you know, that that women don't necessarily have.

And so this is great because I can use that for other people. 

Blake

How as as far back as you want to go or as deep as you want to get into it. Before we started talking about the book. You to to me from the outside are like you have a very specific niche and especially within like the evangelical space talking about, all those things that I mentioned in the intro, how did you get there?

Sheila

Oh, it wasn't, it wasn't intentional. I also say, as a Canadian, I have a niche, you know, niche is one of those weird words.

Blake 

I don't I still don't know how. I don't know if it's niche. If it's niche. 

Sheila 

Well, I know American say niche. It's just like it's a French word is niche. But anyway, but I think Canadians and Brits are the only ones who do that.

They do. 

Blake 

That’s funny. 

Sheila

Probably Aussies too. And Kiwis. Anyway, when I started to mommy blogging in 2008, so I was, you know, I got on the mommy blogging train, I was doing housework, organizing, parenting. And the more I talked about sex, the more my traffic grew. And so my blog kind of became like this Christian sex space, which is weird, you know?

No one, no one sets out to do that. And, and I became this Christian sex lady, and I was mostly just producing books that talked about, you know, how to have healthy sex. The Good Girls Guide to Great Sex, which I've since completely rewritten, 31 Days to Great Sex, etc.. 

And then I had this experience in 2019 when, I had a headache, I was procrastinating, and I was on Twitter and people were debating whether they needed love or respect, and they were referring to the bestselling book Love and Respect by Emerson Eggerichs.

And I thought, I have that book. This is an awesome way to procrastinate. So I went and got it, and I turned to the sex chapter, and it was like a nuclear bomb went off in my living room because I read, if your husband is typical, he has a need that you don't have. That need is for physical release.

If he doesn't get physical release, he'll come under satanic attack. And there was not a single word about women feeling pleasure to, or about intimacy. And I just thought, if that is what is being taught in evangelical resources, what are we, what are we going to do about it? And I had never really read a lot of other Christian books because I was afraid of plagiarizing.

And I thought, well, I love Jesus. They love Jesus. We're all saying the same thing. And that was when I realized, oh crap, we are so not saying the same thing. 

And I had working for me at the time, Joanna Sawatsky, who's an epidemiologist and statistician. She was home with her baby and just wanted something to do.

And my daughter had just graduated from psychology with a psychometrics background and survey design, and she was working for me. So we just decided to do research. And we've since we've done four huge research projects, we've been published in academic journals. And, and a bunch of books behind us just looking at how our messaging in the evangelical church can actually end up hurting people, both men and women.

And we need to do better. 

Jamie 

What what did the focus of what was the focus of those four surveys? 

Sheila 

Okay, so we started with our biggest one, which was 20,000 women for our book, The Great Sex Rescue. And we were specifically measuring how a lot of teachings around sex affected marital sexual satisfaction. We followed that up with a very similar survey for men.

Then we did a survey for women on how the things that they learned as teenagers affected them long term in church. And then the most recent one, which was really I think our most fun one was we did a matched pair survey, for the marriage you want where we surveyed both men and women in couples.

And then we were able to see, okay, if a husband believes this, how does that affect the wife or if a wife does this how does this how does that affect the husband? So they didn't know how each other answered. But we were able to match people up. And it was really neat. 

Jamie 

Oh wow, that is awesome.

So 20,000 women? 

Blake

Yeah, I think that's important to note because like a lot of what you talk about is not just your I'm not minimizing your ideas and like the way that you can see things.

Sheila 

Oh no, you can minimize my I did this is the point is that we're data driven. 

Blake 

Yeah. That's good okay.

So it's like this this stuff that you're so passionate about and that you're putting language to is, is not just an idea that you had, but it's like backed by real stories of people. 

Jamie 

I, I heard you and Keith talking about the Marriage You Want on your podcast, and, and he was referencing, even giving a talk at a marriage conference where someone came up to him afterwards and was like, how do you know that things you're talking about work. The way that I heard that is that you two were speaking based on a curriculum somebody else gave you, and then you were just kind of along with what you were saying already giving a message that you were like, this is this is biblical. So it must be true. Is that what I was gathering from that story?

Sheila

Yeah. So we started speaking at a large marriage conference in Canada that puts them all across Canada. It's affiliated with the larger one in the US. I won't mention it ‘cause it doesn't matter which one it was, but they did have a curriculum that we had to use, and we started when we were in our mid 30s.

And some of it we just thought, okay, this just isn't true for us, but we figured, well, maybe we're young, maybe we don't know. And so, you know, we like obviously they must know more because they've designed this whole conference that's been heard by thousands and thousands and thousands of people. So we use that curriculum. But we would put in stories that we felt more steered it in the right direction.

But, you know, we still stuck to that curriculum. And it was really only when we started doing a lot of our research that we realized, no, our gut feeling was right the whole time. You know, often we go along with things because, well, that's just what we're taught in church. Like, that's just what we're taught is a Christian marriage.

And it's like, but that doesn't actually work. Like, you know, and maybe we need to start asking harder questions. 

Jamie 

Could you tell us a little bit more about, from your perspective, what you feel like? What are the things that were taught? I could say, from what I listen to you and what I felt like I was taught, but I'm kind of curious.

I've heard you say a few times, like, this is what we have learned. This is what we're taught in the evangelical space. And how you're shifting away from that. But what do you feel like? The kind of the foundational truths that we were taught are so that we can then help them navigate this conversation of what does it look like to move away from that?

Sheila

You know, I like to say there's five big things, okay, that pretty much any evangelical marriage book will all say. And these five things unite pretty much every single marriage book. 

And it's based on one faulty premise. And then the other four things flow from that faulty premise and the faulty premise is this: that men are in authority over women in marriage.

And people use a lot of proof text to show that, that is one particular interpretation of the Bible, for sure. But if you look at data, though, that actually has very negative outcomes. So as soon as you put a husband in authority over the wife, as soon as you say the husband makes the final decision, marital satisfaction plummets, sexual satisfaction plummets, and the divorce rate skyrockets.

And we're not the only ones who found that John Gottman, who was the world's premier marriage researcher, found that there's an 82% chance of divorce when men make the final decision in marriages. 

Jamie

Did you say 82%? 

Sheila

Yes. Now, the thing to remember is that the majority of people who say they believe it do not act it out.

So people are saying this is what they do, but they're actually acting as egalitarians. And that's why so many people's marriages in evangelicals were actually quite good. Like evangelicals do tend to have better marriages in the general population, but it's not because we're following our teachings. It's because we're not, so we have the best parts of church, you know, we love Jesus.

We have the Holy Spirit in us. We understand about love and sacrifice, and we're in a good community. And all of those things give you a great marriage, but we're not acting out the toxic stuff. As soon as you act out the toxic stuff, bad things happen. So you have this faulty premise that men are in authority over women, and from that flow for other things that we're often always taught.

So if you believe men are in authority over women, there has to be a reason. 

And so that reason is that men and women are polar opposites. They're totally different. And you can't really understand each other. And then from that you teach people, okay, if you're having trouble in marriage, it's because of your expectations. Don't you realize you should go to God for your needs?

You can't rely on someone else to fill you up. That's God's job. And so if you're not happy, you need to go to God. 

Then you tell people that and maybe that helps them for a little bit. They start journaling, they start doing more devotions. You know, they start trying to deal with the problems in their marriage that may not work.

So then they come up with this one. Marriage is hard. God created marriage to make you holy, not happy. Marriage is meant to refine you. Don't you realize that marriage is supposed to be hard? And then people say, okay, well, I guess I just have to keep at it, and then maybe they go at it for a few more years, and then you throw this one at them.

You can't divorce no matter what, but don't worry, because your reward is in heaven. So the more that you love this unlovable person, the more that you respect this, unrespectable person. The more you're going to get a reward in heaven and that's basically Christian marriage teaching in the evangelical church. And those things don't work. 

Jamie

Yeah. When you lay it out that way, it sounds abusive.

Blake

It is. Yeah. And it and it happens. Yeah. I imagine, like, obviously there's such a spectrum, but that those four, five things that you mentioned happen in very overt ways, very clear ways. But also, I would imagine that this is kind of a question, very subtle ways to? And I think every time I say the word subtle now, I think back to our conversation with Dan Alcindor, on the show.

And he said, the more subtle, the more satanic.

And I imagine that, like in even in these books and in these when you're like sitting under like a spiritual authority, if people like if that, if these five things are happening in such a subtle way that you can be impacted by it, in harmful ways and not even really like, be aware of it because it's not super clear where you're like, oh, whoa.

Sheila

Well, let me, let me take one of them and just walk you through what happens.

So let's say that you're taught that marriage is hard, okay?

And with all of these things there is an element of truth, right? Like that's why they're able to keep up at it. Because there is an element of truth. But let's say you're taught marriage is hard. So then you know, you're in a relationship. Let's say you just got married and you have your first conflict. And it isn't going well. You're not happy, but you figure, oh, well, I guess this is just what marriage is. And so instead of saying, oh, wait a minute, like, we should be able to get through this, you figure? No, this is just the instrument that God is using to refine me. And so I need to go pray more, etc..

So you don't see red flags. So if you're in an abusive or really, toxic marriage, you think that's normal. 

And it can lead to people marrying abusers, both men and women can end up marrying abusers because you're told relationships are hard. But it can also mean that even if you're in a marriage which could otherwise be healthy, you don't use proper conflict resolution techniques because you figure, well, this is just what marriage is, as opposed to, holy cow, I don't want to live like this.

Like, what are we going to do about this and figure it out, you know? 

Jamie 

Right. 

Sheila

And the way that I like to put it is life is hard. Marriage adds complications to life, right? You have another person that you're going through life with. You have two sets of jobs, two sets of families that can get ill or lose work or have some sort of crisis.You often have children which bring a lot of complications, or you can't have children when you want them, which also brings a lot of complications. So life is hard, but marriage and marriage brings complications. But your spouse should make life easier, not harder. And your spouse should not be the reason that marriage is hard or that life is hard.

Jamie

Yeah, yeah I, I work with a few couples in my therapy practice. It's not my primary thing that I do as a therapist, but it is some because I work in a more rural setting. So I kind of see a general population. And one of the things that I've been working on with my clients lately, some of whom are Christian, some of whom are not, is moving from unconscious incompetence to unconscious competence over time.

So it sounds like what you're saying is that the message in the Christian church is that if you encounter unconscious incompetence, that's just what marriage is, and the refining will be that you can just suck that up. 

Sheila 

Yeah. Yep. 

Jamie 

That does not sound fun. 

Blake 

Or effective.

Jamie 

Or effective, or healthy for any kind of relationship.

So if those are the five, what I want to talk about all of them. But the things that both Blake and I work a lot with is sex addiction. It's part of our stories. And I know that I've even heard you reference that this is Every Man's Battle. I don't know if you've heard of Sam Jolman?

Sheila

Yes. Yes, he's a good friend. Yes, he's been on our podcast, too. The sex talk you never got. Yeah. Yes. 

Jamie 

So he came and talked to us as well. And we really resonate with the idea that in the evangelical church, a lot of men, if not all men, were taught this is the battle that you will always fight. That sex is something that you should not do at all before marriage.

And then when you get to marriage, it's time to turn it on and do it really well. And that's something that I talk to my own clients about. How do you deconstruct the narrative that you were given that this is prior to marriage, something that's super unhealthy or demonized? And then when you get to marriage, it's something that you now not only need to see as healthy and put in the context of holiness, but you need to be really good at without having proper education or any kind of help understanding.

Like what even is pleasure? How do you have open conversations about this? Especially when the entire context of this and I know I'm rambling, but the entire context of this is based on poor communication to begin with, so it's not even modeling helpful communication about sex for later. 

And I heard you talk about the idea that men get to do whatever they want, and women need to fill in the gaps of men's lack of psychological development.

Blake 

Oh my gosh 

Jamie

And, and and I thought how I think there's a yes and to that in the work that I have experienced as a therapist. Which is women are it, I guess, in the evangelical space. But this kind of seems like a more at large issue as well, that women have been culturally trained to, we talk about it as using the full 64 box of crayons to color their emotions.

Men are given a box of eight and really only socially encouraged to use two of them. And so it kind of feels like this. Again, unconscious incompetence of you do have a lack of psychological development. Maybe as a man and that's now showing up also in your sex life, because you don't have the ability to appropriately communicate that, I feel incompetent and under-resourced in this area that's very vulnerable, embarrassing and difficult to talk about in our marriage now. And then the big things that are given also are I'm trying to be careful about how I say this because I'm not actually disagreeing with you. I agree with you big time, but I think it can be really shaming for men now to hear this pendulum swing where it's like, you guys need to really rise to the occasion, kind of, I think, yeah, the way you talked about it is like mountains being made low and valleys being raised up, which I agree with.

And so how do we encourage that in a way where it's like, hey, we 've been given this mountain that maybe you're unconscious of and your gift, like you were saying at the beginning, your gift is how you use that to care for others. 

Sheila 

Yeah, I think I think it's also seeing that the mountain that you've been given has hurt you.

Like there's so much shame that we heap on little boys, like so much shame. I think in some ways we keep I wouldn't say more than girls, but it's a much more negative, sin message. With girls we're kind of taught that you're responsible for everything around you, but with boys, you're taught you're bad. You're just bad, right?

Because we don't distinguish between lusting and noticing and we don't really teach what lusting means. And so you have a 12 year old boy, you're starting to have erections. And he notices, you know, a girl is now wearing a training bra and he gets like, he's curious. And the message you're given as well, you've now hurt Jesus, right?

You have nailed his hands into the cross because you got that erection. And, and so, you know, we don't tell boys that this is normal. Like, you know, finding girls attractive is not lusting after a girl. You know, having interest in sex is not lusting. But you're taught God doesn't want you ever to think about sex.

God doesn't want you ever to be attracted to anybody, because that's a sin. And so what do you do when you are 14 and you're attracted to everything because you have so many hormones? And so you start thinking, God has given you this absolutely impossible thing. Like it’s absolutely impossible to do what God wants you to do.

And so the only option is to make sure that girls control themselves and girls help you out because you can't do it yourself. And so it's up to girls. And that's how this shame message happens. And that's how a lot of the responsibility gets put on girls, which ends up hurting girls too. But it also makes boys feel helpless when you're not, because we've labeled things sin that aren't sin.

Yeah. You know, and so there's so much shame that's heaped on men. And then they go through life, you know, the vast majority, vast majority of Christian, teen men and, and young 20s men are involved with pornography. So you get married with porn in your past with all of the shame in your past, and you're thinking, at least marriage will finally make me feel better.

Right? And so at least, at least with marriage, I won't be drawn to this stuff anymore. And you probably still are, right. Because porn and sex are not the same thing. And it's still a huge big mess. And what you've never been taught is that having sexual attraction is normal. Having these feelings is normal. There's nothing wrong with that.

It's okay to desire your wife. But intimacy is a really beautiful thing. And instead we're using sex to run away and try to cure this shame and sin we feel instead of sex, as a way to celebrate the relationship that you have with your wife. 

And so that's what I mean by the fact that the mountain, it can actually be harmful because, you know, the mountain lets men say, hey, it's going to be my wife's fault if I use porn.

Hey, my wife is going to be my sin management tool. But that ends up hurting men because you don't experience what it means to just have a healthy sexual drive for your wife without all this other stuff, you know, mixed in. 

Jamie 

Yeah. Well done Sheila. 

Blake 

What are you going to say something?

Jamie 

I have some curiosities. So I'm curious going from the five big things that it feels like the church maybe sets up this inappropriate foundation.

I know you even talked about the top ten selling books, well top ten selling Christian books have been the same. There's only one from 2017, and then everything else is 15 years or older. 

Blake

Wow

Yeah, and the vast majority of them are actually from the 90s. 

Blake

Wow. 

Jamie

So the data from the books in the 90s is probably even older than the 90s.

Sheila

Yeah, actually there's no data. Oh, it's another issue is that of the books that we looked at, in our research project with this 14 bestselling sex and marriage books, and in those 14, there were 11 peer reviewed citations, not 11 per book, but 11 overall. And the majority of them were from Tim Keller in theological journals like Tim Keller and Meaning of Marriage did a lot of theological journals. So it's not just that the data is from the 90s. They didn't use data at all. 

Jamie

Yeah. So I guess my curiosity takes me to, if this is what the foundation is, what does the data suggest about what helps a marriage and what can we as men,

because this is primarily a podcast to help men develop into a more holistic version of themselves that they, in a marriage they want to show up in and they want to be a part of, and they help lead that. So what does the data suggest and what does that tell us about how men can show up in a more helpful way?

Blake

Great question. 

Sheila

Honestly, it really comes down to partnership. It's like, are you both putting in the effort like all the effort that you can, are you taking initiative to look at what your partner needs? Are you working on yourself to make sure that you're the best you know spouse you can be? It's just, are we functioning as a partner or are we functioning in a roles based marriage?

Because when you function in a roles based marriage, roles like men do this, women do this, that both, tells you what you can do, but it also exempts you from other things. And it's the exempting from other thing that's really the problem, because you both need to be putting in 100%. That doesn't mean that you both do the same things. But it means that together you sit down and you say, okay, given our circumstances, our giftings, our interests, our passions, our money situation, our backgrounds, etc., what is the best way that we can care for our family? And that's going to look different for everybody. There isn't a one size fits all. So it's like, are we being partners and are we making decisions together about how we can do the best we can.

And that's what really, really matters. Yeah. And then that has repercussions for all kinds of other things that we talk about in the marriage. 

You want like, you know, are you able to emotionally show up in the marriage, which is a huge problem for a lot of guys? It can be a problem for a lot of women, too, like just because women in general are better at emotional connection and openness than men does not mean that each individual woman is good at this, because they're not, and it doesn't guarantee that she will be better than he will be.

But, you know, emotional connection matters. And then just splitting responsibilities matters. You know, we think that the two biggest issues in marriage are. Well, let me ask you, what have you always been told are the two biggest issues in marriage…

Jamie and Blake

Sex and money. 

Sheila

Sex and money, right? Yeah. And, we measured it, and they're not, not by far.

There's something that's way more important. So we measured marital satisfaction on a scale of 1 to 100, and most people are in, like the 60 to 90 range, like there's not a lot of people sitting at 20. Okay? So it's not like you're you're throughout the thing. So little changes matter a lot. So if you have money problems that drops you by about five points.

So it's significant. If you go from having sex, once a month to having sex several times a week, that's a ten point increase. Okay? So significant, but it's not like astronomical. But if you go from sharing housework and mental load to one person doing 90% of it, you see a 30 point drop. 

Jamie

Oh!

Blake

Wow. So, wow.

Sheila

You know, people think sex is the biggest problem. It's not. It's mental load and housework. And that applies whether or not there's a stay at home parent in the relationship. 

Blake

And I would imagine that it is not I, I thought of a few clients right when you said that where we do like that is a theme of conversation in our sessions is the mental load and the housework and while that is like certainly an important factor that needs to be, talked about a named within the couple, I, I would say at least for some of the clients I'm thinking of, it's like it is about that, but it's not about that.

It's about all of the back to what you were saying, the unconscious incompetence and biases and, all the stories that we make up about our spouse and, not feeling seen and not feeling heard, which comes back to like, probably some all these different things. And so, like, just then reorganizing the structure of, well, okay, well I'll do this and then you do that will make it more even workload, just for the sake of having an even workload is not the same as having and maybe doesn't need to be, but like, working on that workload as a partnership with the intent to connect more emotionally. 

Sheila

Yeah, to me, I think the big thing is really, even more than like, who does the dishes? It's who's carrying the mental load for it all because that's what, what really exhausts women, especially since women do carry the majority of it.

So can I give you an example? What I mean? 

Jamie

Yeah, please. 

Sheila

Okay, so let's say that we'll take a couple, we'll call them Sandra and Mark. And let's say that Mark says to Sandra, you know what hun, you've been working so hard. You're so tired. How about you take Saturday off? I've got the kids. I've got this. You could do whatever you want. And so she's super happy. She goes. She works out at the gym. She goes to a coffee shop and reads her book. She's had a great morning. She comes home around lunch and, you know, there's dishes all in the kitchen, but the kids are super happy. They've made pancakes. You know, every everyone's happy, and that's fine.

So she starts to do the dishes and she realizes that the present for the birthday party they have to go to this afternoon is still unwrapped on the kitchen island. And she's like, well, that's okay, I'll just go wrap it. And as she goes to get the wrapping paper, she sees her son's science fair project. And like, it's still the same as it was last night and it's due on Monday.

And then she thinks, oh my gosh, did Caitlin practice piano yet? Because we have to go to this party this afternoon like it's not going to get done. And so she says to her husband, you know, did this get done? And he's like, well, you didn't tell me. And she's like, okay, there is a family calendar. This stuff is circled and starred.

We were talking about this at dinner last night that the science fair project has to get done on Saturday, because Sunday we've got church all day and then your mom's coming over, you know, like there is no time if we don't do it now. 

And so now I'm running around like a chicken with my head cut off for the next two hours before we have to leave for this party to get the kids to doing all this stuff.

And I look like the bad guy, Right? And he's like, but I gave you this great morning. The kids are happy. It's like, okay, but this stuff still needs to get done. And he's like, well, you should have told me. And she's like, why was that my job? Yeah. You know, we were talking about this at the table with the kids last night.

But if you don't realize, no, this matters. I need to keep track of this as well. Then I can just go right over your head, and it doesn't occur to you. And that's what. That's what happens in so many families. And that's what completely burns her out, is that she feels like I am the default for everything.

And, people take me for granted. And it's not every marriage, but it is a large portion of them, like things like kin keeping. We asked, we asked people, okay, when it comes to your mom who looks after, you know, her birthday cards, her Mother's Day cards, etc. like when it comes to extended family, who cares for your extended family?

And in about half of marriages each person cares for their own, but in the other half, the wife cares for both of them. There's very few marriages where the husband cares for both of them. It's the same thing with making medical and dental appointments in about half of marriages. They each make their own appointments and in the other half she makes them for both of them.

Very, very few. Does he make them for both of them? 

Blake

Yeah. Yeah. And back to your story of Sandra and Sandra. And work when it doesn't. This is why, like what you described, where he goes. Well, you didn't tell me. And then you said, well, we talked about it at dinner last night, so there was it wasn't like there was all of this stuff that she had on her mind, that there was never any communication about thatm, he was just supposed to know. It was like they talked about it. There was conversation about it, and he did hear it. And I'm like, yeah, I've never been there. But I'm sure Jamie has.

Jamie

Right. It's just me. 

Blake 

But this is why it's so important for us as men to do our own work, because I know for most of the men that would be in that example, when he's not hearing or not listening in the midst of that dinner conversation, it's not because he doesn't care. It's not because he doesn't want or doesn't desire for most men to take the mental load off of her to be supportive. It's because of a lot of reasons, but it's because he's so disconnected from his own story.

I'm kind of I'm speaking for myself. I'm just saying this. And he's thinking about work, and he's thinking about his performance at work and what he needs to do, or he's in all of these other places because his where he gets his value or where he think where he's trying to get his value is is so much wrapped up in this, like, performative doing.

And so the reason he's not present is because his disconnection from his own story is taking him into all of these other worlds, even while he's with his family, and he doesn't even know that he's not even aware of that. 

Sheila

But I would just push back and say, you know, women who work still have you know, they still have all of that other stuff on their minds as well, but they don't have the luxury of not paying attention to the science fair project.

Jamie 

Yeah, yeah. And if I can explain the unconscious incompetence to unconscious competition.

Blake

Yeah, I ask you to define that.

Jamie

Because I didn't actually explain it earlier. I just said it in the way that it relates to this. I think part of this is knowing what was modeled for you. And so the unconscious incompetence or the showing up at the dinner table and not taking on the mental load could be you didn't really see that modeled for you when you were younger.

And so the unconscious incompetence is this is my role to your point earlier about the evangelical foundation. That's unhelpful. 

Blake

This is just how it is. 

Jamie

This is my role is I, I work and then maybe I help the kids make pancakes, but I don't do anything else. And moving from that to conscious incompetence would be.

So the the pattern goes unconscious conscious conscious unconscious. Unconscious incompetence to conscious incompetence, which is basically how I say it is spitting in the soup of a problem. So you see that I am not helping with the mental load. I notice I don't show up in all of the, you know, for me, and even the example you gave about buying for both sides of the family, that even if I want to buy my mom a gift, or even if I think about it, my wife Elizabeth has already been thinking about it.

That shows my now, conscious incompetence. Like even if I'm starting to think about it, if she starts the conversation with me because I thought about it but didn't communicate it, that's still incompetence. Then moving from that to conscious competence where I say I'm thinking about this, not sure what to do here. I'm thinking about the kids needing to go to this party and practice piano.

And maybe I'm doing that imperfectly, but I am thinking about it and I'm trying in it, and I'm trying to help carry the load by being consciously competent then unconscious competent, which is when you have such a routine and pattern of those things. Yes, that now you are the team together and you both, you share that mental load and what it sounds like you are saying Sheila, is that somewhere in that conscious competence and unconscious competence space, once you move to that side of the scale, not only does it increase marital satisfaction for whoever was holding the mental load on their own prior. Primarily the female, but it increases overall marital satisfaction?

Sheila 

Very much so. So men who take on the mental load have better marriages.

They have better sex lives. They just. Yeah, couples just enjoy each other more. Yeah. Because you feel like partners and, and I wish that this was, more taught, but instead, we're often just taught this gender role idea, and it doesn't work. And that's why we see. And multiple studies have shown this, is that women's marital satisfaction drops much faster than men's.

Men's often stays pretty high, like men have much higher marital satisfaction than women in general. But women's drops and it tends to drop in a predictable line. And we call this the Unfairness Threshold, where, like for the first five years, she can basically put up with anything. So she can put up with dissatisfying sex. It doesn't bother her that much.

She can put up with doing most of the housework. Doesn't bother her that much. She can put up with doing all the kin keeping like in those first five years. She's like, well, I guess this is just my role. This is what I do. I'm happy. By year ten, it's starting to bugger. By year 15, she's had it.

And by year 20 she's often out the door. And that's when marriage is sexless too. 

Blake

That’s such a long time.

Sheila

So we see like the marriage hasn't actually changed. It's just that her ability to put up with it has just gone. It's just gone. And so it's so much better if couples in the first few years of marriage when nobody knows what they're doing.

Jamie

Right, right, right. 

Sheila

If we just talk about this stuff, like if we just make it like, like say, okay, I'm not happy with this, you know, I don't know what to do. I don't know how to change it, but what I do know is that if this keeps happening exactly the same way as it is, I'm going to be super unhappy in 20 years.

So, you know, it's not whether you can put up with it today, it's whether you can put up with it for the next for for the rest of your marriage. That's that's the key thing people need to start asking themselves. And if you can't put up with it for the rest of your marriage, even if you're okay today, you need to make an issue out of it today.

Jamie

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. As our sponsors often say to us, you need to play that tape to the end. 

Blake 

I have a question. Could you really quickly, because this will help me set up my question. Could you really quickly share what you did? I think it was on the episode that we were referring to about your book.

I think it was Isaiah 40, the mountain and Valley. Yeah. Analogy that you put language to. Could you say that really quick? 

Sheila

Yeah. Okay. I won't be able to quote the passage properly, but there is, there is this passage in Isaiah where God is talking about how he's going to make the crooked paths straight, and he's going to create, like the smooth road for us, you know, and smooth roads are super important in farming times and times without cars, you know, smooth roads mean that you can get places that life is much easier.

They're very, very, very beneficial. And the way that he builds these smooth roads is that he brings the mountains low and he brings the valleys high. So the people and if you think about it in the human context, what God wants is for us to be partners. God wants, God wants for the road to be, to be equal, to be level playing field.

And that means that the people who are up high, who might have things easier, they need to get down to the trenches. But the people who have been down low, they need to learn that their voices matter and they need to become a little bit more important. And what often happens in the church is that we give the same, we give the wrong advice to the right people, because in the Bible there's lots of versus the talk about bring the mountains low, but how we're supposed to sacrifice, we're supposed to forgive. 

We're supposed to love one another. We're supposed to not think of our own interests, but also think of the interests of others. Right? Like, there's lots and lots of verses that can bring the mountains low, but there's also a lot of verses that can bring the valleys up, you know, verses about, injustice and about caring for the poor and about caring for those that are that are lower down and about how we're not supposed to play favorites and how we're supposed to, you know, care for others. 

But what often happens is that we teach those who are already high up the, the messages, that let them stay high. And then we teach those that are low the messages that would keep them low. So instead of teaching the low people, hey, you know, just as mad as you get to be risen high or no, we teach them.

You need to forgive more. You need to love more. You need to sacrifice more. And we teach those who maybe have more. Hey, you know God made you to be a leader. You're supposed to speak out. You're supposed to do all these things. And so we're not leveling the playing field. We're entrenching these things. So instead of creating this lovely, you know, path that makes things easy, that makes life joyful, we're actually reinforcing the crooked paths.

Blake

Yes. Beautiful. Okay, so that sets up my question. Well, and I'll try to get through it. Usually I ramble and then Jamie, here's what I'm trying to say. And and succinctly says that he's like my ChatGPT. Okay. So. When I'm thinking about a marriage based off of everything that we're talking about socially within the evangelical space, there is this inherent if I'm just borrowing the language, so correct me where it doesn't fit.

If I'm borrowing the analogy, there's this inherent hierarchy within the marriage where the man, because of everything we've talked about today, is kind of to use that, like the mountain on the mountain. And then the, the female is kind of in the valley. Is that fair to just paint a broad picture? Okay. 

Sheila

Yep, yep. 

Blake

And I think that we see a lot of men in the world today, like Jamie alluded to earlier and positions of power who are on the mountain and are aware that they're on the mountain and are okay with being on the mountain.

They're like, this is my place. This is where I should be. And you should be down there. And, those people are difficult, right? And they have a hard time hearing a lot of the stuff that we're talking about. And then I think of men. A lot of the men that I work with that are like the people pleasers and like the nice guys and, they have a really, like, low sense of self, meaning there's lots of toxic shame. They may be in the relationship on the mountain, just because of all the stuff we talked about that, like, just inherently puts him there. But he's not the guy that noticed that knows he's on the mountain and is like, okay with being there and needs to be knocked down.

He actually feels like he's in a completely deeper valley, but like nobody else is, even because of the way that he views himself and the shame that he has. So is this picture I’m painting making sense?

Sheila 

Yeah, yeah. Yes. 

Blake

He's like in this position because of all of these other things that have gone before him and the things that he participates in that keeps him there.

But he also is like, not there. What would you say to that guy? 

Sheila

Yeah, I think so much. And we talk about this in both chapter seven and eight, in our, in our, work on emotional connection. Is it so much that keeps us back is not understanding our stories and then reliving those stories in really counterproductive ways.

Blake

Yeah. 

Sheila

And I think what, what I would say is that a lot of times when we don't have emotional language, when we're looking to other people to emotionally regulate us because we just have a hard time with anger, we snap easily, because we're so focused on shame or because shame has such a hold on us that anything we're very easily triggered.

You know, you feel defensive. So it's very difficult to have open conversations and, and yet, because of the shame as well as because of just the way that we were wired for connection, you know, these guys often have a really, really deep need to feel close to their wives to feel like I'm accepted and I'm loved. But they can't open up and become vulnerable enough to truly be known.

Blake

Right? 

Sheila

Because that's our desire, right? That's our heart's desire is that someone truly knows us and they still accept us. 

Jamie 

Yeah.

Sheila 

But your wife can't truly know you. If you weren't able to show her who you are. And how can you show her who you are if you aren't even in touch with that? If there's so much of yourself that you're running from.

And so these guys often have. Yeah, all of this shame that is constricting what they're doing and that is being really counterproductive in their marriage. But at the same time, they want to connect. And so what do they do? They channel those needs for connection into sex. And they have this super high need for sex, which isn't just a sex drive.

It's not just libido. It's like, if I don't have sex, I'm not accepted and loved because this is my only way to feel accepted and loved. And it puts such pressure on sex. Sex was never meant to have. And when you try to use sex to feel connected while you're not doing the work of connection. As Michael John Cusack talks about, sex can feel really shallow.

And it's one of the reasons why I think 16% of women in our survey said their primary emotion after sex was feeling used. You know, because it's like he's using me to feel something, but he's not really doing the work of connecting. And so those feelings of, you know, desperation. And it is a desperation. I think it's a often it is a real desperation for sex, especially because it is the only method that you have to feel connected.

Those are real, but they're not actually based in a desire for your wife in the proper way. They're instead often based in a desire to run away from the shame that you're feeling and, and run away from true authenticity. And so often, what shows up as sex problems isn't actually a sex problem. But it can become the biggest thing that they fight about because it's instead of sex being something which draws them together, it ends up being something that pulls them apart.

Blake

Yeah. 

Sheila

And so I think that's where guys can, can feel. Well, I'm not actually on that mountain. I'm in the valley because I'm so desperate and she's she's got this thing that will make me feel intimate, but she's holding it back. She's not giving it to me. She's got all the power here. It's like, well, that's not actually what's going on, you know?

So can we explore that more? You know? 

Blake

Yeah. We're made to be known. It's hard to be known without taking the risk of being seen. It's hard to be take the risk of being seen if we're not aware of the pain that we carry for the ways that we weren't seen. 

Sheila

Yeah.

Jamie

Yeah. And I again, want to come back to, I think it can sound like we're saying do more, do more, do more to men. Which in a lot of respects, based on the data is fair. 

Sheila

Buy your mom a birthday card. 

Jamie

Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. And I also want to be clear to those men that what you're saying is that in changing the way you operate, it's not even necessarily doing more, it's doing differently. But in doing differently, we're not asking you to do differently. So that you can maintain the same level of satisfaction in your marriage, and that your wife can finally feel satisfaction in your marriage, that she will feel satisfaction in your marriage based on the data. And that's a great thing. And also, what Sheila is suggesting is that you will feel more satisfaction in your marriage to, whether you can believe that where you are or not.

And that might be some of the result of the unconscious incompetence that we experience. And our shame won't let us see, is that changing some of these patterns, although it feels like a monumental effort, can. \Because for me, like, sex was different for me. I was sexually abused Sheila. And so, like, I wasn't looking to connect through sex.

Sex didn't have safety around it for me. But I definitely felt like one of those guys who's in the valley. Not it. Not the mountain. And I can say from my side of the street that still doing the work on my own story so that I can show up with an understanding of my needs and a curiosity and care for the needs of my wife, drastically changed my satisfaction in my marriage because of yeah, that dip that you're saying for for women is real.

And I think the satisfaction rating for men might be shame based. Like, if I were to, if I were to guess if a man's like, yeah, I'm so happy. Like, you might just be like self-protection. Based on all the guys that I meet with. It's like, you're really, really happy until I poke on these things, and then you're like, yelling at me in my office, and I'm like, I don't know that you're happy as much as, I wonder if this was one of the,oh, here it is. I don't know if you're happy as much as you. This was on your podcast. I don't know if you're happy as much as you are ignoring the reality of what's true to stay safe and what you think God's designed for marriage is. 

Blake 

That’s it.

Jamie

And so I, I it's a I think what you are suggesting and I hope guys will hear is not we're trying to because there's all these movements.

I'm so cautious about this, Sheila. There's all these movements in, like, the manosphere and like, male, like top like this more toxic male culture to go, well, nobody sees me. So now I'm going to shift all the way over here where I'm extreme. And, I don't want to necessarily cater or pander to that narrative, but I do want to be caring towards it by saying, we're not just saying be better.

Sheila

Yeah. 

Jamie

Like what Sheila's suggesting. What the data is suggesting is that by changing the way you operate, going from an incompetence in areas that are unfamiliar to you to an attempt at competence, you will, 30 point difference on a 100 point scale is massive. 

Sheila

Yeah. 

Jamie 

Like that's not marital satisfaction that only goes to your wife. That's not satisfaction relationally. Like try this with a friend if you're not married. Relational satisfaction is not something that only belongs to the other person in that as you do better, you don't get anything in return. I just want our listeners to hear, like, we're not trying to say, we're not trying to add to the shame that you're not enough. We're saying there's something totally different offered to you.

Sheila

Can I can I say something helpful to you? Because I find this really helpful in the data? 

Jamie

Yeah. 

Blake

Yeah. 

Sheila

Okay, so I think, we had, all kinds of different what we call outcome variables. So, like, the things that we want, the things that we consider good things in marriage, things like, I have shared hobbies with my spouse.

I enjoy spending an hour with my spouse if I am in a car ride for an hour and we talk, I end up feeling better. We have high libido. I feel emotionally close during sex. I feel like my spouse cares about my opinions. Like all of these good things that you want in marriage. Okay? And each of our charts, the Marriage You Want has so many charts, it's actually quite fun.

And each of them has, like, at least 16 of these super fun things that you're looking for, right? Here's the cool thing. When one of them gets better, everything is more likely to get better, a little better. So it's not like you have to look at that and say, okay, now I have to share hobbies with my spouse.

I have to work on talking with my spouse. I have to work on having a higher libido. I have to work on being emotionally connected during sex. That's not what we're saying. What we're saying is like when you start moving towards connection, it has ripple effects on everything else that are good. Now, some things, like if some things go really, really high in tandem, okay, if you start working on making sure your wife has an orgasm, you know, when you have sex, then guess what?

Libido is going to come up there too, right? Like some things go hard in tandem. You might not necessarily have shared hobbies in the same way, but you're more like the two. But like the libido is going to move more than the shared hobbies, right? Because then they're more closely related. But even things that aren't that closely related, they're still more likely to get better.

So when you work towards connection, even on one thing, you're more likely to see everything else get that little bit better. 

Blake

Yeah.

Sheila

And so, you know, we're not saying, hey, you got to take your entire marriage and change it. We're saying it just let's start being intentional about this. Let's start and especially, and the reason I think those chapters, we put those chapters at the end about emotional connection, especially on opening up emotionally, and learning how to talk about emotional stuff, you know, working on your own emotional regulation when you can work on that, like everything gets so much easier to deal with.

Blake

Yeah. 

Jamie

Before you wrap up, I just want to say one thing. Yeah, it does sound like you're I mean, that is so cool what you just said about the data. And I hope everybody gets the book so they can see these graphs. But I think, one thing that is really cool, and I think it goes all the way back to what you're saying at the beginning, is if you use your privilege to be able to care for them, then you might create the safety in which these things have the opportunity to change.

Like the fact that you're bringing up sex and like if your wife, you might be like, well, why doesn't my wife tell me that she's not enjoying sex? Well, maybe she has never learned that it's safe to tell you that she's not enjoying sex. And you might if you're asking that question, it's probably in response to she's wondering if sex is safe for you and you're feeling uncomfortable with saying whether it is or is not. 

Just notice. Like if you don't feel safe, you have the privilege that Sheila's talking about that would give you more safety than your wife feels to explain. 

Blake

Yeah. 

Jamie

How you feel in in a sexual relationship and you have the opportunity to Blake and I say a lot that vulnerability breeds vulnerability.

And if you will lead with the safety of saying how you feel in some of these situations, it will breed safety for your spouse to do the same. And likely that's probably what compounds these things. Helping you. 

Sheila

Yeah, I love that. Can I just also say one other thing to clarify about this? If your wife doesn't feel safe to, you know, to say that she's not enjoying sex, that may not be because of anything you're doing. This may not be your fault at all. And that's one of the big things that we really want people to understand from our surveys, is that so much of this is because of how women are taught about sex. Yeah, right. Like we're taught that if you don't give him sex every 72 hours, he's going to have an affair or watch porn. He's going to lust after other women. He's not going to be able to get through his day. You know, if you mention to him that you're not feeling good sexually, then he's going to feel so devastated that he won't be able to function like the stuff that women are taught is so bad. And you may not believe any of it. But she came into marriage with all of this baggage. And so one of the best things that husbands can do is to just say, hey, what were you taught about sex? Let's just talk about it now. Holy cow, that's awful. I never want you to feel that way. That is not me, you know? And just. That's such a gift you can give your wife.

Because often the reason she doesn't feel safe isn't you. And I just want men to hear that, too. 

Blake 

That's really well said. What I was going to start to wrap up by saying, if if couples feel stuck, what's like one thing that you would encourage them to move toward the marriage that they want, but you just gave like three, that were like, so good. And, I mean, I know we could keep talking for, for hours about this really appreciate you giving us the time. And, there's so many nuances to this conversation. And for the listeners, if you're, like, curious about it and it stirs things up, pay attention to that and go check out the Bear Marriage podcast, because there are 263 episodes that dig into all of the nuances of this.

So we're grateful for you and for taking the time, if there's anything that you want to add, you can, but also you've been given some nuggets along the way, so don't feel like you have to. 

Sheila

Yeah, no, I just yeah. Please join us at baremarriage.com. You can get links to all of our books. Like Great Sex Rescue, Good Guys, Good Girl’s Guide to Great Sex.

And our new book, The Marriage You Want. We have an orgasm course. If that's been difficult for your wife. If you click under courses, we have an orgasm course. Libido course? We even have a course. Talk to your kids about sex and puberty so that we can raise kids with better stories than we were raised with.

Jamie

Awesome.

Sheila

Yeah. And then our Bare Marriage podcast every Thursday. 

Blake

Awesome. 

Jamie

Sheila, you're so cool. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks. The Canadian and me, you know? 

Jamie 

Yeah. Yeah

Blake 

It's the niche in you. 

Jamie 

Nice. 

Sheila

Yeah. Yeah. 

Blake

Well, thank you for being with us. Thank you guys for joining us on another episode. 

Jamie 

We're glad you're here. Keep coming back. You're worth it. 

Blake

See you next week. 

Sheila

I hope you enjoyed that. I'm going to go deeper into what I said about the definition of masculinity and what it means to be a man. Because I came up with that on the spot. And the more I've been thinking about it, the more I think that it really does relate to what Paul was writing in Ephesians five about men loving their wives as Christ loved the church and laying down his life for them. In other words, he's laying down the privilege that he has, and he's giving himself up for her. So I'm going to talk about that more on the blog. So please join me and baremarriage.com and make sure that you're subscribed both to the blog to social media to like today, will you please subscribe to one thing that you are not currently subscribed to so that you have different ways to hear from me? So if you watch on YouTube, make sure that you're subscribed there. But join me on Facebook too. Or maybe Instagram. You can just search for BareMarriage on Facebook, search for Sheila Greg, or on Instagram or on Threads.

But join me in one other place so that we can keep contact and remember, it helps so much when you like and subscribe wherever you you listen to Bare Marriage content because when you like and subscribe, you teach the algorithm that this is something good and then they're going to put it in front of other people's eyes too.

It's such a simple thing to do to spread the message. And please take a look at the free ebook studies that we've got for both The Great Sex Rescue and she deserves better that we talked about that are just launching. That's another really good way to spread the message that you can get, group study going with your friends, your relatives, Zoom with all your sisters, whatever it may be. But let's talk about healthy stuff so that people don't get sucked into the unhealthy. 

So thanks for joining us on the Bare Marriage podcast. Really appreciate being here. And we'll see you next week for a really touching interview about, better ways to read the Bible with Zach Lambert and what he learned as he started reading the Bible through a Jesus lens.

This one really touched me. I loved his book and I'm excited to be sharing with you next week. So join me on Bare Marriage. We'll see you again. Bye bye.