Bare Marriage

Episode 294: 4 Christian Women Talk Menopause--and Perimenopause!

• Sheila Gregoire • Season 9 • Episode 294

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I brought together three dear friends to have an honest conversation about perimenopause and menopause because so many of you have been asking about it. We shared our real stories and talked about the challenges like brain fog, weight changes, and sexual adjustments, and my dry eyes that nearly drove me crazy! But here's what I want you to know: menopause isn't just about suffering through symptoms. Each of us found our voices during menopause, finally standing up in toxic relationships and getting angry about toxic teachings we’d tolerated for years. 

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Sheila
Let's talk menopause. I'm Sheila Wray Gregoire from baremarriage.com where we like to talk about healthy evidence based biblical advice for your sex life and your marriage. And one of the questions that I get so often from women is let's talk about perimenopause. Let's talk about menopause, because what the heck is going on? And so I invited three of my favorite people on to this podcast today to talk about that.
We're going to get to them in just a minute. Before we do that, here's something you're going to do for me right now. If you love BareMarriage, and if you love listening to our podcast, wherever you listen to this, will you please rate it five stars or tell other people about it? Even take a minute and share the podcast that you're listening to, because chances are there's other people who need to hear about menopause, too, as well as all the other wonderful things that we talk about.
And remember, you can get extras if you join our Patreon. For just $5 a month, you get access to our Facebook group, our exclusive Facebook group where we'd like to talk about all kinds of stuff and where often it's my patrons who give me ideas for podcasts or fodder for some of the fixed it for you guys that I do.
So that's a great place to find community. And they also get some extra unfiltered things too. So check us out at Patreon.com/baremarriage. And now, without further ado, here's our interview with my friends.

Sheila
The interview everybody has been asking for is for us to talk about menopause. And I have three of my very good friends from different stages of my life here that I want to introduce to you. I have Kelita Havilland and Rosemary Flaaten, who I met. We've been trying to figure this out back in 2008, maybe when we spoke at the girls night out across Canada.
And then I have Doctor Merry, who's a psychologist who has been on the podcast before, and we are all going to talk about our experiences with menopause. So first ladies, will you introduce yourselves? Kelita.
Go ahead.

Kelita
Hi. Nice to see you, Sheila. And you other ladies. My name is Kelita Havilland. I'm a singer, songwriter, speaker, comedian and author, and I make my home now in the Puerto Vallarta, Mexico area.

Sheila
I'm so jealous. I don't know.

Merry
Why are we still here in the cold? Well, it's hot now.

Rosemary
But it's hot now.

Sheila
Rosemary, what about you?

Rosemary
Yeah. So I'm a Canadian. But now living in Arkansas, I'm the executive director of a center for Healthy Relationships. So we we provide resources for relationships with it's marriage or college students. And I actually have Sheila to thank for this job as in, you posted the posting for this. And because it's, you know, the posting had she did a great grow on that, she was passing it on.
I took a second look at it. And here we are now living in Arkansas for the last three years.

Sheila
Yeah, I know, I heard about the job. They approached me about it and I'm like, I like what I'm doing, but I really wanted to make sure someone healthy got the job. So I'm so glad you're there, Rosemary.

Rosemary
Thank you.

Sheila
And then Merry Lynn, you were on our podcast a year ago with your book Rebecoming, which I love. We live in the same city and you go to Rebecca’s church.

Merry
Yes, yes. So we're newer friends. Although again, back to dating. We were dating. We dated we did speak at some conferences together, but didn't really have a chance to chit chat. But yeah, so Sheila mentioned I'm a psychologist and have been practicing for over 30 years. I was just doing the math, a little bit scary.
And, I live in the county, so I'm a Canadian living in Canada. Yay.

Sheila
So I've been asked to talk about menopause, and I thought, oh, my goodness, that is such a huge topic. But I thought, why don't I just get three friends together with me and we can just chat and tell people what to expect now that we're all on the other side of it. So ladies, when did you first notice that things were changing?

Merry
Oh gosh. I'll go first because I, I went into perimenopause early. I was probably in my late 30s, maybe early 40s. So of course I had no idea what was going on. Hot flashes, waking up drenched in sweat. And I thought, there's something wrong with me because that's not normal, right? So I went to see, medical specialists, and it turns out I was in burnout.
And apparently, from what I was told, the hormones that produce cortisol and stress hormones and all that are impacted by our female hormones. So because I was, like, really intensely under stress and I was really using a lot of my adrenals, it impacted my female hormones. So all sorts of wonky things started to happen that made me feel like I was aging before my time. So that was my experience of it. The good thing about having gone into it earlier was that because it was so unusual, I really sought out some help to try to get that under control, because there's no way I was going to go into 20 years of perimenopause, menopause and, you know, lifestyle changes I had to do.
I big time have had to learn to deal with my stress. That was a big thing. My, medical practitioner, she was like, I can help you with all the other stuff, but if you keep pumping and stress, nothing's going to work. So that was really, really significant part of my journey. So I'll kind of start with that, and I'll let the other ladies speak about their entry into this wonderful season of life.

Kelita
Right. I was actually on a missions trip to Cambodia. Oh, and, you know, it was very hot, oppressively hot. The humidity was over the top, and all of a sudden I started getting these heat surges, and I'm like, what the heck is happening to me? And it was like I was starting to count them and I'd get I count, like I'd get 14, 15 a day.
And and finally, after being there for three weeks, I it I figured it out. It's like, oh, I'm getting hot flashes. So I think what happened was being in a hot climate and being in a foreign country, and just the stress of that, that is where my hot flashes started and that was that was horrific and very, you know, made the trip not so pleasant during.

Sheila
Do you remember how old you were?

Kelita
Oh, gosh. Okay. Are you guys good at math? Because I'm terrible. My son, my son is now 32, and I think he was 13.

Merry
So, so 20 years ago.

Sheila
20 years ago.

Kelita
Okay. So I was 47. 47. Yeah. When that all started. I mean, I had mood swings and stuff like that before, but no real physical, issues until those hot flashes started coming. So that.

Sheila
Oh, it's raining for the first time in nine weeks. It's raining. I'm sorry.
I'm so excited.

Kelita
I know we need the rain.

Sheila
Hardest parts of my job is just the impact on your faith. When we started looking into all the toxic teachings in evangelicalism and sex and marriage, I was left thinking, how could people who read the Bible do such harm and not seem to care?
Like, how could God let his Word be misused like that? And it really did, caused me a lot of consternation for a couple of years. Well, when I read Zack Lambert's book Better Ways to Read the Bible, it was just so comforting because it showed me that the problem was not the Bible. The problem was the assumptions and the lenses that we have often read the Bible through.
And, you know, Zack shows the four harmful lenses, but also the four healthy lenses. And I especially love the Jesus lens. So if you haven't read better ways to read the Bible yet, please get it. It's just out with Baker Books and the link for it is in the podcast notes. You know, I actually have a similar story to Merry.

Sheila
So maybe I'll jump in and that like Merry, I was fairly young when things started to change, but I didn't I it was it was mostly due to stress, and I didn't realize that stuff wasn't normal. Like, I always thought, as you go into your 40s and into menopause, things just start getting worse. Like everything starts breaking.
So, my periods actually started getting really, really heavy. And it was gradual, right? So you don't realize how out of control it's getting until, you know, I got to the point where I couldn't leave the house on my first day of my period, or it would I would bleed through. And I just thought, oh, this is just what happens as you go through your 40s.
And I have a friend is a family doctor. And I was joking to her one day about having to sleep on a towel. And she looks at me and she goes, you know, that's not normal, right?
And I said, no I didn’t know that's not normal. And and I, I had a total breakdown because I was so anemic. And I was speaking a ton. I was, it was actually when I was with you girls, I think, like we were speaking a ton across Canada. I was doing so much traveling, and I just had, like, I had a breakdown one day after I came home because I was so tired, and I went to see my doctor and I just had fibroids, but I didn't know that wasn't normal, like, I didn't, you know, and so I had a uterine ablation when I was, I think 42 or 43, which they do now instead of hysterectomy, which is great. They just stick something up there and burn you again. So I don't know, I was asleep, but it worked great. And then, yeah, all the bleeding stopped and my periods were really light until I hit menopause after that. But again, I just didn't know that that as things got worse, that you were allowed to see a doctor about it, you know.

Merry
Well, because you think menopause is typically late 40s, early 50s and it just happens. Your body is falling apart and it is what it is. It's it's it's it's so fascinating because, research around female health is not great. And most physicians aren't taught they may get an hour of training on menopause. So, and I have a male doctor on top of that.
So this is not something that he had personal experience with. So I wasn't really getting the guidance along. But it's the same thing as you, Sheila. I had, I was I think it was the event I was speaking. I was standing up there, and then all of a sudden, gush, like, luckily I was wearing black pants.
I had about six pads on, and it still went right through. And, and then I went and changed, went back up to speak. And as her gosh, this is not normal and ended up having to see a ObGyn and she says, oh, you've got polyps. And so the blood accumulates. They're bleeding heavy. So I had to go for surgery, DNC and ablation as well.
And she came out, she says, oh my gosh, you have polyps like this big like 12 of them. And she was like so joyful.
I figured this out of me. I go, where are they?
They I want to see why keep them in a little jar for me? She said, oh no, no, no, I threw it out. I was mine anyway. Sorry.

Sheila
Yeah, and I was, I should just, I was, I think I was 42.

Merry
So yeah, it's probably about that time. And then the doctor said you're going to periods went really late. And yeah that's just going to take you to menopause. And sure enough, it took me to menopause. It never went heavy again. It was so great.

Sheila
Yeah. It was it was wonderful. What about you, Rosemary?

Rosemary
So I think I'm in. I know I'm in menopause because I'm having a hard time remembering what it was like.
But when I look back, I think late 40s, I was probably starting to get a few hot flashes. There was the cognitive side. I was really stressed about that, but that actually became came out of something else. My mom had early onset Alzheimer's, and so late 40s when I was actually 50. That was about the time that she had started to show signs.
So I actually that was probably more of an issue for me than what was happening with my uterus. And I actually went and had a full psychological workup as a benchmark. And that helped alleviate some of that. You know, I didn't know what was normal. Again. Right. We talked about we don't talk about this. I thought, is this happening to me?
Because it had happened to my mother. But at that same time, I was starting to get really heavy periods, very, very heavy periods and ended up having a complete hysterectomy. I had, I had a cyst this or a growth the size I said, it was like I was 13 weeks pregnant, so I had and I've opted to have my, ovaries removed. So I was at 52 when that happened. So I went into immediate full blown, menopause at that stage. And, you know, there's a lot. I was actually just reading an article this week in CBC saying, you know, women who women have a higher incidence of dementia. And it's not just because they're living longer and that actually are estrogen plays a big part of that.
And so a part of my dealing with kind of this immediate, onset of, a full blown menopause was using anestrogen patch. And that has really helped, so but everybody's story is so different, right? Like, even as we've just talked here with all of us or, you know, we've had some medical assistance, in dealing with this, I remember my mom like, she would go to bed for two days with with migraines.
Right. Some women have that, and there's just. I don't think there's any. There's there's no right path through it. And you look back. Oh, I could have done that, or I could have done this, but really, it's you just do your best with what you have available to and what you know. But I would just, like, get as much help as you can through this.
It's kind of like I remember when our first baby was born, you know, that we were in the stage. Don't take any medicine. Like, just do it all natural, right, of having an epidural. And it was like the best thing to do. And it was just like, well, you go with what you can at the moment given given what you what your reality is.

Sheila
Okay. Here I want to come back to the hormones this act. But I actually wanted to talk about what you said about the mental stuff because my dad had early onset Alzheimer's as well, and. Yeah, and he passed away, in his early 70s, but he had it like, since early 60. And so when I have had a few mental things and it, it has made me worried, you know, but so probably I should go get a baseline as well.
But the weird thing is I lose words like, I can't, I can't always think of words and my spelling. Every now and then I spell a word wrong. And I have had perfect spelling like I used to win spelling. I have had perfect spelling for as long as I can think like it's it's a big thing for me.
I love spelling and every now and then I can't remember how to spell a word. And it's the weirdest thing.

Merry
That's a real thing. That mental fog is. Word finding is one of the biggest ones that I have, and I speak. I mean, you speak, all of us speak and I write. And so I'm there with a client and I'm trying to express a word, and it's something super basic, and I just can't come up with the word, and it's off.
And then I beat myself up, and then I worry, is there something wrong with me? But the more and more I talk to other women who have gone through menopause, that brain fog, hard time finding words it seems to be so common. And I think for women who are high achievers or have done well or. Yeah, like using their brain is just a natural thing.
And so you don't think about what happens if it starts to kind of fail you and then you do worry, is there something wrong with me? Right. So I might not have the same breadth of vocabulary, or at least immediately, but hopefully you have better wisdom.
That’s the hope.


Rosemary
I just finished, getting my doctorate, and I was part of what almost held me back. It was that hump that I had to get over was this, am I going to be able to remember all the things that I need to remember, especially in my defense, like doing the defense of my dissertation? Am I going to be able to remember, you know, who wrote this and what articles attached to that? Because that's part of it. And I had to work really hard on that. And but I also did realize that fear was actually hindering my capacity to do that and that at sometimes it's just really, you know, I can't remember who who that was or, you know, I'll make a statement like other nouns are always the first to go.
You know what? I am who I am, and, yeah, please still pass my dissertation.

Rosemary
It's concerning, at this stage of life, right?

Kelita
Yeah. Something that maybe not all of you could relate to, but maybe some of those of us who speak. I don't know if you find that your voice is changing, because as a singer, you know, I've sung my whole life. It's a gift. You know, I I've done it all in the singing area, and now I have to really change how I sing the songs that I've been singing for a long time.
Like, my voice has become lower, and so I don't. I don't have the same range, the same capabilities. So that has been, you know, as I'm sitting listening to you like there are parts of us that we have to realize that they're going to evolve and change, but then with what comes with that is a bit of grief, right?
Grieving, the grieving, that memory that we used to have that word recall, we used to have all of that. We you know, what nobody tells us is that really appreciate those really beautiful good years. Because when you get older, some of those things start to fade. And, and we don't really appreciate what we had.

Rosemary
Yeah, it's funny too. You you mentioned that we just had our first grandbaby. So holding this little girl and and I have been a musician singer all my life. Not professional.
As you. Yeah.
I'm singing to her and I'm hearing my voice and I'm like, it sounds different than the last time I held a baby. You know, 30 years ago. And. And you're right. I hadn't equated it. That it's. It could well be the effect of menopause.

Kelita
Wow. Yeah. You're right. That is. Yeah.
Yeah. I remember when Ann Marie retired and I thought, why is she retiring? She's only like, I think she was maybe 65 or 66 around where I've been these last few years. And I thought, she's in good shape. Why is she stopping? And then I thought, well, maybe now that I'm in that age, I'm thinking maybe that's why, you know, her voice is changing.

Sheila
Yeah, yeah.

Sheila
Well, so you mentioned you mentioned grieving things. Yeah.
Are there any things that anything else that you guys have grieved? I know this is a silly one. This is really silly. Okay. But I think a lot of people go through this, but I just I gained 15 pounds. I can't lose, you know, and it's only 15 pounds and it doesn't matter. And we shouldn't be putting our worth in what we look like.
But I think what it made me realize is how much I did put my worth in that, which is something which is, pretty much completely genetic for me. Like, it's not, you know, it's not. It was it it's just luck of the lottery, you know, the lottery genes, right? But when suddenly it's not easy to lose weight anymore, it's like, oh, yeah.

Kelita
That's a big one. Like where I live, there's a lot of younger women that are going into their 50s, and that is the biggest thing I would say that women struggle with is that menopause weight that they gain, especially around the middle, and that they just no matter what they do. And I know I've got a friend, she's a health women's health expert, and she's now starting to go through it.
And, you know, it's just part of that change. And, I think there's some times where no matter what we do, diet, exercise, that is it's not moving. And we have to, like you said, accept that. And and we have to, you know, we have our mothers. We can look back and see how did they look, right.

Sheila
Yeah. I mean. What it's made me do is like, you know what? I'm not trying to lose weight anymore. I just want to be strong. I've never been strong. My whole life. And so my goal is I want to be able to do two pushups by Christmas. Just two push ups.

Merry
And cheering you.

Sheila
But yeah, I just want to feel strong and I feel like if I don't do it now, it's only going to get harder. Right.

Kelita
So and that's what we hear a lot about our is is keeping our bones strong. Yeah. When we get, when we get to this age because we, we deteriorate our bones, we, we lose a lot. And so that is one of the most important things is keep keep moving and, you know, do do small weights, even if you have a set around the house and you don't belong to a gym, at least, you know, start lifting those.

Merry
I've been giving this some thought, Sheila, your question about the grieving as we go through changes. And for me, because my living requires me to use my brain a lot, and also as somebody who's, generally creative thinker, I, entrepreneur, all of those things. So I've been finding that my fluid reasoning skills, which is my ability to apply the box and be iinnovative and have the energy to kind of start up new ideas seems to have really lessened.
And, I do know that for women who are older, our crystallized reasoning is stronger. We have much more historical insight and memories. And so with that comes wisdom. But see, I like being called wise. But then it also feels like that's an old word that you use for aging people. And so sometimes I do miss how fast my mind used to go boom, boom, boom, boom.
And I'd have all these ideas. And then I actually be able to do it. Now it's like I have an idea and it's like, what was that idea again?
You know what? Frankly, I don't have the energy for it.
So yeah, okay. That's it.
And so for me, I have some fears as I my mind, I'm finding, is shifting. My dad had dementia, although he didn't have it till late in life, but I fear that the thing that sort of maybe is part of my identity, but it is certainly part of what I do for a living is a thing that I'm starting to lose.
And so, that's the thing I would say. But at the other side of the coin, I would say there's also a growing sense of, well, maybe that's a season of life and it's okay to just kind of gracefully move into that and not try so hard to be that young person that I was before, because that's not possible.

Kelita
A huge that's a huge one. Yeah. What you've touched on there. Yeah.

Sheila
Okay. Let's just let's just go over for listeners who may not know what menopause actually is in brief. So first of all, what age. So you're officially in menopause when you haven't had a period for 12 consecutive months.
So for me I was pretty young like I was 48 now. Which I know was yeah is is really young. What about the rest of you?

Kelita
I was 50.

Sheila
Yeah. And then Rosemary, you said you were 52.

Rosemary
Yeah, I was 52. And I had had the equipment removed.

Sheila
Yes.

Merry
Yeah. See, this is my menopause. I don't remember, but it was definitely early 50s. It just stopped. And I was fortunate because a lot of women, it stops and starts and so it's like I hit menopause. Oh, no, I didn't, I hit men. Oh, no.

Sheila
Oh, yeah.

Merry
It just literally just one day it stopped. And then it didn't never came back. And it was early 50s. So yeah, that's when it started happening.

Sheila
Yeah. Yeah, I was really and but I started my period so young, I kind of feel like I owed. Like that.

Kelita
How old were you?

Sheila
When I started my period? I was like, almost 11.

Speaker 3
Wow. So it was. Yeah, I was really young.

Kelita
Yeah. That is. Yeah.

Speaker 3
So yeah.

Sheila
But I know, I know kids are younger now, but for them I was like my, the youngest by like two years of all my friends you know. Anyway so what if and then once you go through menopause your hormone levels change. You know, estrogen really decreases. And we don't realize all the things estrogen is responsible for, like bone health.
So osteoporosis is really common after menopause. Heart health. So we're in greater risk of heart problems. Estrogen also regulates a lot of sexual function, which we'll get to in a minute, but, you can find a lot of differences, especially with lubrication, because estrogen really regulates the blood flow to the genital area. And so it's the weirdest thing because you can feel mentally and physically aroused without being lubricated at all.
And it can cause, the vagina to atrophy where the muscles just aren't as strong and they. And the lining for the vagina can get really thin and brittle, and it can start. Things can just start to sting. So keeping things moist is always a good idea. And and maybe we'll talk about that in a minute. But, that's something that a lot of people notice.
And then there's all the hot flashes.
And I know my husband wants to explain the medical reason for the hot flashes. Does anyone know the medical reason. 

Merry 
It's just sucks.

Sheila
It's like it's like because you don't have constant like you don't have this constant hormones. It'll be really low and then all of a sudden you'll get a surge of estrogen and something will happen. Anyway, I don't, I don't know, but it's like a surge of hormones and you're just like, what does a hot flash feel to all of you? What do you go through?

Merry
I haven't had one I love very long time, but it's like this, just this inner burning inside of me that kind of is there. And I can't explain it because the temperature outside is fine. I want to take off all my clothes. Yeah. Even if I was completely naked, I'd still feel hot because it feels like it comes from inside.

Sheila
I always feel it worse on my neck. Like my neck gets really hot first and then. And I went through years where I couldn't wear any of my hand knit sweaters like I was. I would every day I would be in a t shirt and then a cardigan or a blazer, like everything was layers. Like my my entire wardrobe went to layers for about 6 or 7 years.

Rosemary
Yeah. I feel it on my head like it's like the from my, the pores of my hair. Is coming heat like it's just. And you know, you put your hand here. Oh, man. My head is hot.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I do it elsewhere too, but that's mine starting.

Merry
You can actually see heat rising from your body.

Sheila
And you've seen those. I have you seen those videos like on TikTok of women outside in the cold. They kind of football gamers and their skin is rising from there.

Rosemary
I don't doubt it. And there's that. I forget how somebody else, I heard somebody describe it, but it's kind of like the the one leg outside the blanket. Oh yeah. Yeah. Whichever is right or left is always outside the.

Merry
Yeah. That's so annoying.

Rosemary
I was. Always had a queen bed. But we've been talking about getting a king because just him being close.
Too much sometimes, right? Like, I just, I just need it's he's hot. I mean, you.
Know, you know what I mean? He's hot.

Merry
Okay. Now we're going to talk about sex.

Sheila
We got a bigger bed, too. We got a bigger bed, too.

Kelita
Yeah, yeah. And my husband has complained over the years, and he still does that. I'm so hot, he can't be near me.

Merry
Yeah. Yeah. It's like sizzles right.

Sheila
Any if you have insomnia too like I I've. Oh yes I wake up in the middle of the night. Can't get back to sleep.

Merry
Yeah.

Kelita
You know another topic, surrounding all of this that a lot of women don't talk about and don't realize is that when our bladders are beginning to leak. Oh, yes. That's all part of the lack of hormones. And I think a lot of us think, oh, you know, it's just because I've had X amount of babies or whatever.
But, from the some of the reading that I've done over the years is that it's, I don't know, it's the lack of estrogen and progesterone.
But that can be huge in so many of us. And as a singer, I first started experiencing that if I was on stage and I was singing a really a song that had a lot of a lot of power in it, all of a sudden I'd be hitting these high notes and it's like, oh my gosh.
Yeah, or laughing. I just naturally every time I knew I was having a good laugh, I'd cross my legs before that. Have you guys experienced that?

Sheila
Yeah I think I've heard a lot of women do. I went through a lot of pelvic floor physiotherapy exercises which I think it really helped for other issues. But yeah.

Rosemary
And that's a really good that's a really good point Sheila. I think women at any stage, pelvic floor, physiotherapy was huge. I, I went shortly after my hysterectomy and, and just it was a really, really great awareness of, of our body which we, we often don't get, especially as younger women or we didn't in our generation anyways.
So yeah, that was a great.

Kelita
Yeah, that's really key I think the pelvic floor exercises.

Merry
I think for me, one of the gifts of going through, early perimenopause and because I was in the height of my career raising kids and all that was that it forced me to look at my body because this is the problem for a lot of women is they just have been taught to endure. And so you put up with it and you think that this normal part of aging and you feel like you can't do anything about it, but you can. And so I think one of the advantages for me, having gone into it earlier was that, no way. I can't live like this for this long. And so I did seek help, and I found helpful to have some support around my hormones, and especially a support around my, stress as well. But in doing the support around my hormonal health, a lot of the symptoms actually dissipated.
So I haven't had some of the things that you've been describing, but that's because I kind of got an early handle on it. So I think for the women, depending what age or stage, I mean, if you're already well into it, there's still things that you can do to be better. But when you're younger, there are things that you can do to help.
Like you said, the pelvic floor exercises can be phenomenal to help with that little leaking that happens, and just dealing with your stress can be a part of it.

Sheila
And and prolapse as to which is really common. Like when organs when organs start to fall trying to like, what are you doing?

Merry
Yeah. Yes. The thing that really sold me, though, to be honest, because that's vanity. I was seeing a natural path and she says, you know, if we get a handle on your estrogen, it's going to slow down your aging within five years of a menopause. Well, I don't mind slowing down my aging. So I don't know if it's genetics because, Asians, we kind of look young, like we look like a teenager until all of a sudden we look ancient and we're.
So I could be in that stage. But, so I feel like, while I think it's important to be honest about all the struggles it is and to pay attention to it earlier and get some help, that also, there's some really positive things about that as you work through the grieving in the mourning and the changes in the processing, that in some ways forces us to process things that maybe we would just ignore.
And if we're able to do it, there can be some really great, things that come out of this season.

Sheila
I think so, too. And that's where I want to land at the end. But I have a few more things to say. Okay, share my story about how I got on hormones, which I waited way too long. And I had the weirdest menopause symptom that I haven't heard anyone else have, but it was horrible. It was dry eyes.
Because, you know, you lose lubrication in all kinds of areas of your body.
Including your eyes. And, and a lot of people don't struggle with this, but I, I did and I do. I was on these, these drops, and I was allergic to the drops. So I had to get non preservative drops and it wouldn't help. I'd be taking these things like 15 times a day. They went everywhere with me and my eyes were so uncomfortable I could barely sleep and I thought I was going to lose my mind.
And I was seeing optometrists. I was I was taking all kinds of different supplements and nothing was working. And that is what made me say to my doctor, I think I need to go on hormones because I was avoiding it for a long time because my mum has, my mum had breast cancer when she was very young.
And, you know, I thought maybe there's an elevated risk. There's been a recent study that shows that there's not. So I had a good talk with my doctor, and we decided that, you know, the risks of osteoporosis and heart disease are actually worse than the risks of breast cancer for me. And if I'm going through this where I'm not sleeping, that's bad.
And I went on a super low dose and my entire life changed.
It's like I need drops maybe once every other day. Maybe.

Kelita
I had dry eyes too. She laughs. So I, I feel your pain. It's not fun. Yeah. And especially when you're about that, no one, especially when you're working on the computer and yeah, yeah.

Rosemary
Yeah I haven't, I have dry eyes and I had indicated that. So that's a real thank you for sharing that. That's I there's probably a lot more of us then just have never put the two and two together. Yeah.

Sheila
Yeah. So it was actually someone at the, the supplement store that said, you know, you probably, you know, instead of taking stuff directly for your eyes, you should probably take stuff more for estrogen because probably related to menopausal. I'm like, oh my goodness, I never thought of that. So yeah.
But yeah, I do regret, like, I think I could have saved a lot of years of hot flashes if I had gone on.
A little bit earlier.

Kelita
So yeah, I know I still, I know some women who are way older than me and they're still getting hot flashes. I'm like, why aren't you doing something for that? Because I think there's a lot of fear out there.

Sheila
I just I kept remembering this conversation, like over the last five, ten years, this conversation has come back to me. Many times that I had with Kelita probably 15 years ago, when we were still the girls. Are that where you sat me down and you said, oh my goodness. I went on bioidentical hormones and my life is so much better 
My libido is back.
My like everything. So yeah, you got to do it.

Kelita
It really helped me for sure.

Merry
Now I it helped me a lot too. I'm. I'm a true believer not to be pushing it for people who are uncomfortable. Or they might have some medical reasons why they couldn't. But in general, the large majority of women I speak to who have gone on bioidentical, which is just easier to absorb, a bit more natural ways of doing the hormone therapy.
Just have had helps with, with sleep, with the cognitive fog, with the, I'll call it chapped lips.
It's not down up here, but down there.
And, definitely with the hot flashes. So I haven't really struggled with that for a while.

Sheila
And there's other things people can do too. And this is not meant as a medical podcast to please talk to your doctor. Health care provider, whatever. There's so many different things and so much depends on your medical history and your family history, etc., etc. but, you know, for for, sex and lubrication issues, there's also estrogen, estrogen cream.
You can take directly in the, the, the genital area. There's suppositories, vitamin E suppositories can work amazing for lubricating, the vagina so that it stays supple. A lot, lots and lots of things that you can do. So just talk to your doctor and medical provider. But let's talk about sex. Yeah, yeah. Let's talk. Right.

Merry
I mean, I thought I didn't even think about menopause, and then I never had a problem with lubrication. And even when I started perimenopause, it wasn't an issue. But just one day, I was like, ouch. When my husband and I were having intercourse. And so I'm telling my sister about just, oh, yeah, it's chapped lips. And she talked about how it gets drier down there and it's more painful. 
I'm like, but this never happened to me before. So, for me, having a vibrant sexual life is still important part of my marriage. So I got to do something about it. And like you said, the there are creams and lubricants, and I tried them all, and my body is sensitive. And so there's certain ones that I got a little itchy and everything.
But all in all, to say that, there's no reason why you can't continue. And in fact, in some ways, I would say our sex life is better because you don't have that same. Oh, it should be this way or that way, but it's almost like a slowing down in exploring now that my body has changed what is actually good for me, what is bad for me, what causes me pain.
And I'm more quick to articulate that and actually guide my husband. Whereas in the past I'd be like, whatever it is, what it is, and now I'm so much more aware of my body and what feels good, what doesn't feel good. And I feel like we've had a lot more honest conversations as a result. And maybe that's part of maturing.
But it's also part of explaining. I would say, though, that with the hormonal changes, my sexual drive dropped big time and to the point where I'd be like, yeah, I could go without having sex, I'd be okay with that. But then that I was still too young to say that is not fair to my husband and not fair to me.
And so it was worth investigating. Not just the chat blip aspect, but, I was even like, should I go on like, testosterone? Is that going to make me go here? But also I'm going to have more of a sex drive. And my doctor is like, no, no, no, you don't need that. And it is with a series of, different lubricants, Astra deal, which is something that you use inside your body.
Estrogen cream and, a lot of really good conversations. It's been great. And I'll stop there because there's other things I could say about it, but I want to give a chance for a woman to speak.

Rosemary
I think, what I've noticed is just. We have actually, although it's it it's we've been married for just had our 40th anniversary, so we were gone a long time. And our sex life has always been a really important part of our marriage. But we're actually having to work at it harder now. As in, be much more intentional about, setting aside the time.
So, I mean, we she you've been a great advocate of this, that sex is more than just the body and includes both body mind. Right. Like it's the whole person really comes. And although the body may be a little slower to respond, you can actually stimulate that through conversation and through touch. And there's just there's other ways than just, you know, rows at home and you're reading each other's clothes off like there is.
There's ways to to continue to build that. And like, you marry. It's a really important part, I believe, of a marriage. And, and there's, there's marriages out there that for any number of reasons, they may not have as much sex as I did or whatever. That's again, I'm not here to say it needs to happen a certain number of times a week.
Not bad at all, but I do know that it is an important part of our intimacy and what that looks like, and that as a result of menopause, we've actually had to be more intentional, more, work harder at it.
And that's good actually.

Sheila
Yeah I think it is, I think it is I know what you mean though. Like like that, that feeling of wanting to close off, has largely gone away for me honestly. Like I, I just don't get those hormone surges anymore. But that doesn't mean that I don't really enjoy sex still. Yeah. You know or don't want to connect. I think it's kind of it's kind of gone from like being super hot to more just being hot.
Loving and yeah, highly hot another way.
But more just like being loving and and and fun and relaxing. Maybe relaxing is the best.

Merry
I think that's a good way, I think, where when your body is not behaving the way it should, you either have to have a really great sense of humor about it and be relaxed about it and see if there's something you can do, or you get more uptight and it gets more painful, gets more difficult, and you just give up.
And I wonder if menopause sometimes accentuates problems that people have had in their sex life already, but they were able to ignore because the body could just overcome it. But when you get to this stage, like you said, gross, mate, we have to work harder at it and I don't naturally feel like, oh gosh, she's so hot, I'm just going to jump his bones.
We actually have scheduled times because that means that we're preparing our minds and our bodies and just this time of connection, so that when we do, it's beautiful and there isn't, but we also give ourselves permission that it doesn't have to be this way or that way. And sometimes, if it's not happening for me, it's not happening for me, it's okay.
Other times, one thing I've noticed, and I don't know if it's the same plate case for you other women, but I had, I have noticed. I don't know if I'm going to get too graphic with this, but, my capacity to have multiple orgasms has increased and.
Once I'm there, I'm like, ding ding ding ding ding ding ding. And my husband husband's like, this is not fair.

Sheila
One of the stats that we share all of the time on this podcast is our orgasm gap that 95% of men report almost always are always reaching orgasm in a given sexual encounter, compared to 48% of evangelical women. Well, what if you're in that 52%? Or what if you were like the 12% who never orgasms at all? We want to help.
And I know that's weird, but we created a course to help you learn how to reach orgasm.
Based in modern Peer reviewed research.
Not just one pastor's opinion. Like so many of these, resources.

Merry
You've been given before in the Orgasm course, you will find many practical applications to common problems.
That women face when it comes to sexual pleasure.

Sheila
Because it's thing to remember is that a lot of those people that are in the 48% who do almost always or always reach orgasm were once in the 12%, and you can get to the 48%, too. There's also a husbands course that goes along with it to help both of you together figure this out, so please take a look at the orgasm course.

Sheila
The link is in the podcast notes I didn't know I thought that was just me. Okay. That's interesting.

Merry
So I asked a sex therapist this, a few years back because I said there's a weird thing that's happening and I'm getting multiples. It's just, oh, no, no, no, it's actually common. And it's common for women in menopause. But it because I had that happen in the back of my head because I could stop at any point.
I had my I'm good to go. I had my one okay. Finish already. But then when I realized that actually I can keep it going, I'm like, well, I might as well.
I just well, I might as well, I might as well high time have anything else to do tonight? You know.
What? I have a few more. When I realized that that it can be a, one of the gifts of menopause, and I don't know if it's because I'm more relaxed. I don't know if it's because I know my body more. My husband knows my body more. I don't know what it is, the hormonal change that happens.
I'm curious about your experience, Sheila, as to you, because again, I kind of was a little wanting to bring it up, but, is this normal? Is it not just knowing that the sex therapist said that it can be common as part of menopause? And in that conversation, I was with another woman who was in menopause who also had multiples.
And so, putting it on the table.

Sheila
Yeah, yeah.
What about you, Kelita? I remember talking to you, and you were talking about how, like, your libido tanked before you went on hormones, like all those years ago.

Kelita
Oh, yeah. It definitely helped. But it's nice listening to different scenarios here. But, you know, Gordon, I've been married 30, almost 35 years, so we we don't have the same kind of sex life that we had. And actually he is more of the one that is has lost his libido. And so it's hard for me to, to accept that.
And that's but that's been part of our journey. And when I was first going through menopause, yeah, it increased, you know, I was way more interested than he was. And I felt, that maybe there was something wrong with me. You know, that whole thing. And now we're at a place where we're. We're kind of on the same page.
My libido has settled back down. His is still pretty much the same. And so when you talk about loving and being in a comfortable place where, yeah, you don't have to have intercourse to be intimate, and I would say that the loving part of it, you know, even after all these years, just that kind of intimacy, has grown and matured and and I'm now in a place where I don't feel like, oh, I'm.
I'm missing out or, you know, what happened? I've come to accept that this is just where we both are, and we're comfortable with it. And. Yeah. So my, my, my experience is actually different than most. If you.

Sheila
So you're happy that's the big thing. Yeah. You got 35 years behind you.

Kelita
Yeah. Yeah. And we're and we're going strong. And he's you know he has he doesn't right now. But I remember maybe some of your husbands too I mean he he would have hot flashes in the night. He would wake he would wake up like soaking half his side of the bed. And so I know that I don't know if other husbands, I.

Merry
Do think men do go through, hormonal changes. We just maybe don't talk about it. They don't talk about.

Sheila
Sure. Yeah. It's not as it's not. It's just I do want to say a couple more things about sexual function. Just, in talking to to so many women I know, for me, in my early 40s, you know, there would be times where we'd be having sex. And I was like, I was really turned on, you know?
And kids would be like, oh, you're not ready yet. And I'm like, yes, well, yeah. And it's like, no, no, you're not. It's like, what do you mean I'm not? But because I had just lost so much lubrication and just we just started buying lubricant at the drugstore. So I don't have any allergies to that. I mean, eye drops in my eyes, I can't handle that.
But other stuff I'm fine with. So that was fairly easy. And that's a fairly cheap fix for that. But I just remember feeling like, is there something wrong with me? Like, am I rejecting him? Do I not like, is your.

Merry
Body telling you something?

Sheila
Yeah, yeah. And it's like, no, I'm just this is just me. And so that was important. But I have I have spoken to a lot of women who say that after menopause they couldn't orgasm any more. And I actually, I was speaking, at a marriage conference, and one woman who was, who was, teaching said that that after menopause, it's common not to reach orgasm.
And I've spoken to a lot of women who have that same experience, and I and I and I've since spoken to a lot of gynecologists and asked about this and the conclusion that I have come to, which is not scientific. It is after talking to some doctors, but I would love to see a study on this. So this is just Sheila's hypothesis.
Okay. So this is this is the hypothesis I'm throwing out there. But please do not take this as medical word, is it? I think for some women, when orgasm was easy when you first got married, it can become hard after menopause because orgasm was so body focused. Like you didn't have to work at at mindfulness. You didn't have to work at paying attention to your arousal.
You didn't have to work at paying attention to your body. Orgasm just kind of happened. Those women often have a difficult time after menopause. But for women who had who struggled with orgasm, who did have to figure out mindfulness and we talk about all of this in our orgasm course, I'll put a link to that in the podcast notes.
Like, you know, who did have to figure out how do I reach orgasm? They often don't have an issue as much because they already have worked through a lot of this, you know? So, but to me, that says that if it was super easy for you before and now it's hard, it could just be that you need to learn how to pay attention to your body.
And so something like taking the orgasm course might help because you just may never have gone through those things before. If orgasm stops because it was always hard for you. And now this is just the final nail in the coffin, then I really would talk to a doctor, you know, about hormones and therapies and stuff.


Merry
I like your theory there, Sheila, because I would say I'm one of the ones who I get so easily distracted. I'm thinking of laundry lists. Even now. I have to put my phone, my watch, anything that might kind of go off because I'm like.
I can't be distracted. And I have had to learn to be very mindful and very focused, and I had to prepare myself so that I would be ready for it. So because I've been doing that work for a long period of time, but at this point it's almost kind of easy. So yeah, I think there's something to that.
Of course. This is, and of however many women you've spoken to. But I think that would be a fascinating research study.

Sheila
Yeah. So someone who's a sex therapist do a study on that.
Right?

Rosemary
Yeah, yeah. And I would say it's ugly. I we've experienced that, that really having to lean into the skills that we've developed earlier in our marriage has helped us at this stage. But and so, I guess as an encouragement to the younger women out there that just, yeah, be really attentive to kind of some of the, some of the patterns, some of the routines that you develop early actually become very fruitful at this time of your life and your marriage.

Sheila
Yeah, absolutely. Okay. I want to change gears now, and I want to talk about how our attitudes change at menopause and how that can be either freeing or, or, can really hurt us, depending on which route we take. And to start, I would like to play a video clip from one of my favorite, TikTok accounts, just the We Don't Care club.
I don't know it. And so here I will just play it and let people hear.

We Don’t Care Club TikTok
Hello and welcome to our new and existing members of the We Do Not Care club. I started this club for all women going through perimenopause and menopause. We are putting the world on notice that we simply just do not care much anymore. Let's go ahead and get started with today's announcements. We do not care if our boobs hang low and we can tie them in a bowl.
We do not care if the tag says hand wash is getting washed. Has getting washed. It is in the Lord's hands. Name. We do not care if the family reunion is coming up, if it is still hot outside. FaceTime us so we can speak to everyone. We do not care if smiling makes us look friendly. We're not. We do not care if we pay for a monthly gym membership and we do not go.
We do not care if our pedicures and manicures cost a hydra and $11. We can no longer reach our toes and we can't see up close to paying our fingernails. We do not care if you are a gentle parent either. Make them care. Sit down. Our young can go home. We do not care if we lose our phone 13 times a day and keep it on silent.

Speaker 7
Shut up! It help us look for it. We do not care if you have to use the bathroom at our house. Yes, that is our bra behind the door. Please do not touch it. As you open the door to exit. That concludes the announcements for today.

Sheila
I feel like that sometimes. It's like, yeah, I just don't care anymore. I do not care. And it's so freeing not to care.

Merry
I carry oh, gosh.

Speaker 3
Yeah. I know.

Merry
Sorry. Go ahead.

Rosemary
No, I was just going to say I find it really interesting. That is that as women or the culture doesn't really care what age a man is in terms what, you know, what he can do or can't do and when it's too old and yet and some of it, I think as women we can do this to ourselves.
But even as a culture that if you get to a certain age, you know, menopause almost feels like you're you're done. Your usefulness is over. And I think we actually I'd love to reframe that more, too, that we really are, see this as a freeing time. So we're not, you know, we've we're not tied to even our periods or other things that we might have experienced.
A lot of us have empty nest, and it's just a time to actually go and be. So when I took this job, most of my friends in Calgary where we lived, I think I only had 2 or 3 that either were not either were already retired or were going to be retiring. And they said, why you're taking this, you know, big job, you're moving.
Like, why are you doing this? I'm like, because I got more trips around the sun left in me. And I feel like, you know, so many of my I would stay at home for a number of years. And then I moved for my husband's job. It was kind of like, this is my time.
Reframe. Refrain, no, reframe, reframe. Yeah. What we think menopause can be. It's not a dying off. It's actually a time of could be a time of rebirth for us as women.

Kelita
Yeah I think it's time for you to be. You are. You've raised the kids. You're done. You know, maybe all the things that have been expected of you and. Yeah that's you. It's your time. It's, it's your time even to start doing things that you've been thinking about for 30 years and have never done and finding those places that are just for you. Yes.
It's awesome that you've done that move there. Good for you.

Sheila
Yeah I think what happens to in your early 50s is you just realize if I don't deal with this now it's never going to get dealt with. And I'm sick of it. Like I'm just sick of it. And even in marriage you know, like Keith and I have probably done more work on working through, like, you know, childhood wounds or things that we haven't really touched, like in the last five years than we did in the previous 30.


Sheila
You know, and our marriage was good. It was never it's not ever that it was bad, but it's like, no, you know what? This stuff is hitting me wrong. Now. Like, no, I don't I don't need to deal with like, we don't need to live with this anymore. Let's let's get it dealt with.


Merry
Yeah. I think too, there's a greater, you know, when you, you lose things or, you're like, you're waking you mentioned or, you know, your face might have a few more wrinkles. There's nothing you can do to change that. You stop holding on to things that when you look back, you think, why did I put so much energy into that?
Like, why did I think it was so important? And so you are freed from the things that you used to think are important. And as you get older and you know you have less time in front of you, you start to really evaluate, like, what do I want my life to stand for? What's the quality of my life going to be like?
And so I think people might become more reflective. I mean, there is, you know, the stages of development were at the stage of stagnation or, generativity and so stagnation are for people go, oh my gosh, I can't believe how I lost. I'm so dry, I have so many hot flashes and they're just stuck in this cycle of all that they lost.
And they keep trying to go back and they can become bitter, whereas with the generativity it becomes I've grieved it, I've let it go. I see growing freedom in it. I like who I am. I don't have to prove myself anymore. And in that becomes this generosity of spirit where you still want to give. You still have a lot to offer, but it's a lot more about offering, things that will help the generations that come behind us to really thrive, as opposed to I don't need the accolades of doing the thing I can support others to be able to do it.
And so I feel like in many ways, I'm more effective is just maybe a little bit more behind the scenes. Because I don't have as much of the need to do that. And I think I have greater wisdom. And since I don't have as much of the energy or the, fluid reasoning skills to actually make things happen, I can support those who do it as well.
But for me personally, I grew up in a generation, and I think it's would be similar for some of you where as a women, from an evangelical background and for me also as a woman of color, I was raised not really speaking up for myself. And so I think I tolerated a lot. And then you get to the age where, wait a minute, this isn't right.
This isn't right. I'm getting angry, but I have the maturity not to be yelling my anger. I have the maturity, hopefully, to just assert and speak clearly and, and be able to express my opinions and to feel like I can, have those healthy boundaries, have those healthy conversations that I need to have engage in conflict in a healthy way. And I'm seeing success in that, which then reinforces more and more of doing that kind of thing. So I, I like the stage of life I'm at. I really do.

Sheila
I love it, honestly. Like, I'm, I think this is my favorite stage of life because I can truly be me.
As opposed to worrying about what my kids need or what my husband needs or what, you know, because my husband's work has has slowed down to he has more margins in his life. And now we can just sort of ask ourselves, okay, what do we actually want to do? What's important for us to do now? And we feel a lot of freedom in that.
Okay, I have a theory and I want to see if you can relate to any of this. But when you're younger, you individualize your problems so you think, you know, this is something that I am going through, that I did something wrong, or my spouse did something wrong, or my kids or something or whatever. Like, like this is this is a problem that is unique to me.
But the older you get, the more you see everyone around you having very similar issues, often for very similar reasons. And I think you realize as you get to menopause that there's a sisterhood that we didn't have when we were in our 20s and 30s and individualizing everything. And you start to realize, oh, no, wait, this is you know, this is part of what our society is telling us we need to be.
This is part of it. Maybe that's why I got so mad at them.
Church around the time I went through menopause, we used to joke Joanna and Rebecca and me that we were three hormonal women doing this work because I was going through menopause. Becca was pregnant and Joanna was breastfeeding. You know, when we were writing Great Sex Rescue, like. But I do think there's a sisterhood and I wish there were more songs written by menopausal women, because it feels like sometimes I turn on the radio and I don't relate to any of it because it's all, why doesn't he love me?
You know, it's all about falling in love when you're 20 and now it's not an out of the world so much bigger than that and so much bigger than that.

Rosemary
So as you've been talking, I've been thinking about some of the older women who, when I was in my 40s, actually spoke into my life. And I, you know, at the time I wasn't thinking that, oh, they, they're in menopause, but they, they were. And the advice that they gave me and, you know, sometimes it was a kick in the butt and sometimes it was, hold my hand.
They really helped lead me, I think, into especially having the courage that's needed at this time of life to keep going, and to find your voice and use it in a way that's. This is really restorative. I like what you said about we can either go, you know, kind of bitchy or bitchy, but I'm actually not what, what we're called to do.
Right. Like, there's there is this how do we and how do we have reframe the the way culture speaks about do you think about how is how is menopause referred to in movies? Right. There's usually it's one of those two things that has has happened. Your other just really, really ready to give up or yeah, let's, let's actually take it on.
With grace and truth.

Merry
Yeah, I really do think there is just this greater self-acceptance because we are processing more and we are thinking about what's more important. I think, you know, it's interesting. I like your theory. I really do, with the individualism. And we're kind of absorbed in our own world and our own pain. And as we mature, we realize, wait a minute, this is universal, and we have this sisterhood.
At the same time, I think we also swing to becoming more individual in a healthy way. So I would say in my early years, I was far more codependent, codependent in the way that my sense of identity was rooted in my has been, in my parenting, in my social circle, all of that. And I didn't necessarily have a good sense of who I am apart from all of that.
And now I feel this confidence in who I am. I don't need other people to tell me my value. I feel that for myself. I know that from as you know, God has, really showcased that to me. And whereas in the past, the praise of others, the acceptance of others just drove me so much. So I feel like I'm more of an individual now, but I'm an individual amongst a group of sisters who likewise feel that same sense of, you know, in integrity or integration in their sense of self, but yet we can still be collective together, and that just makes it more and more beautiful.
And I love the rising voices of women who are speaking up more. And there's commonality in the themes that we have to say we're supporting each other. We don't have to be feeling insecure and oh, I can't support you because it's going to make me look bad. No, I want to support you. I want to support all the women at different stages.
So for the women listening who may not be married, who may not have a partner, may not want to have a partner, may not have all the traditional roles, but can still feel that sense of sisterhood, because of the commonality of our experiences as women.

Sheila
I want to I want to read you this, letter that a reader sent in, when I was talking about menopause and social media. And I think this this actually, I'll just I'll read it and then I'll get your feedback. But she says this, I've been thinking about how to use the negative emotions I'm feeling and just quote, just, just an addendum.
Emotions aren't negative, but I know what she means. But like, emotions aren't bad, right? It's just sometimes we get these, this feeling of anger. But that can be telling us something anyway to use these negative emotions. I'm feeling so strongly since perimenopause started to create needed changes in my life. Like if I find myself in a rage about something, I can either one believe my anger blindly and just go with it.
Maybe burn bridges that don't need to be burned or two. I can feel guilty that I'm mad and apologize for my overreaction, even though maybe there's years of low grade pent up frustration behind it. Or three, I can listen to the anger and try to figure out what's fueling it, because hormones are like gasoline. But there's still that flame from the real issue.
And once I figure out the cause, I can think about how to effectively communicate or change the situation. That's bothering me. Honestly, I'm still in the beginning stages of figuring out how to do the third option, but I think we women go through our 20s to 40s and we're taking care of our family and just trying so hard to do that well.
But now our kids are growing up and our parents are getting older, and our role is changing in many areas. And some things like smoothing everything for everyone have gotten really old. I want someone to make things smooth for me. I'm tired of running everything, making all the household decisions, having to be the bulldozer that makes everything, everything happen.
So I think without the crazy feelings, I just continue to mask my feelings even from myself. But now I know change is needed, but I'm not going to let my emotions run wild and make these choices for me. I'm praying for wisdom. Another benefit of being a bit old and

Merry
Oh yeah, I love what you said about the the the fire and the flame and the thing that causes it. So it's not like we're making up our emotions. It's not that, oh, you're just having a menopausal moment. There are often legitimate feelings that we have that we've buried for years or we kind of dismiss. It's not that important.
It's fine. It'll go away. But menopause magnifies it. So that you must do something about it. And it, I think, brings clarity. If it's not just the cloud of emotions and you've been in this reactive mode, but it's okay. What is my body telling me? What are my emotions telling me? For sure, I've had some strange for me.
Strange because I'm normally pretty emotionally like levelheaded because I have to part of my upbringing and all that stuff. But, there's times where I'm shocked at how angry I am or how hurt I am, and in the past, I would have just dismissed it. Felt guilty. I shouldn't feel this way. Why? You know, this is not good, but I would actually pay attention to what is actually going on for me, and I would be so surprised at the insight that would emerge.
And then it would lead to action of really deep conversations that I would have to have with my partner, or my kids or my friends, or just with God to just process through it and have greater understanding of what's the root cause, and therefore then what my response needs to be. And I so I really appreciate menopause for having done that for me.
And I don't think it is just maturity. I think it is the fact that everything kind of gets exaggerated, magnified, and you just got to do something with it, right?

Kelita
Well, I, I think for me, what has come through is that I've finally stood up to the toxic relationships. And whereas before I would have been always the people pleaser, the peace keeper, peacemaker, and I finally, one particular relationship in in my life, which was within my immediate family, I had to put a line in the sand and say, that's it, no more.
And that was very empowering. And although it was a loss and there was a grieving about that, it was like I still had to do that for me. And I don't know if I would have been able to do that without, like you said, married, like finding that place where it you're not you're not going to go back, you're not going to be concerned as much as we were in those younger years and just really being honest and truthful and accepting of ourselves and finding that self, that self-worth, that self-worth, I mean, you women know that that's the thing that women deal with more than anything is low self-worth.
And why is that? Because a lot of times have been taken advantage of and we've been the good girls, the good women, the good mothers.
And the song that goes with that lovely woman's letter is a song that I wrote years ago called The Strong One.

Sheila
Oh yeah I know that one. I will put a link to that in the podcast notes.

Kelita
And the, the chorus is, I don't want to be the strong one.

Rosemary
Exact on strength strength in different ways right than it is. Yeah yeah. Wrong for everybody else. But we're actually stronger ourselves. Yeah.


Rosemary
And for me, I think learning to articulate my needs, was really was really critical at this stage. Body image is something I've always struggled with. And just being able to articulate what, what I was feeling, what how my husband and I were interacting on this. And then I also remember, reading John Gottman. I know you've referenced Gottman often in your research.
But he was he says in 69% of arguments will never actually conflict, will never actually be resolved, and just kind of learning what to let go of.
But what's actually really important to be talking about here and how maybe what the when we talk about emotions and getting them, you know, where do we land one, 2 or 3 in that woman's I love the way she, she defined that is what's really important. Sometimes it is important. Right. I've I've stopped what I feel for a long time.
But learning how to do that in a way that's actually restorative in the relationship. Right. So it doesn't destroy me or or my husband, in that and just, just to really realize that we're on the we're on the same road, the same team, I think too often have been conflict over, like we're sitting across the table versus we're on the same side of the table.
And the it's actually the, the conflict that's on the other side of the table. We've got it together. Figure out. So and again, I you know, I mentioned it earlier, the skills that we developed earlier in our marriage are are coming this fruition in them. Now there's real fruit coming from that.

Sheila
Yeah I think you know as we wrap up I'll just say this, I think what happens when you're young is you're told all of these things are going to make you happy.
Right. Like your marriage is going to make you fulfilled. Your career is going to make you fulfilled. Having kids are going to make you fulfilled. Being part of a good church family is going to make you fulfilled. And you go through your 20s, 30s and 40s and you're working as hard as you can to get all of these things so that you can be fulfilled and happy, and you find ultimately that, wait a minute, you know, it really comes down to, where am I at?
Because none of those things can do that for you. Yeah. Right. And so it makes you question God, it makes you question yourself. But they're good questions. And I think in that questioning you find your voice. And I think that's why menopausal women tend to be the change.

Kelita
We don't care.

Sheila
Yeah, yeah, we don't care. Yeah.
We don't care anymore. And so we're going to make it change. Okay. Let me read this because I think this is a great quote to end on. And then we'll say goodbye. She said, and I think this was a threads I read, I can't find it, so I can't quarter I'm sorry, but I copied it out.
The aging or aged woman is feared in a patriarchal society because wise and powerful women aren't needed in a patriarchy. If we can understand that societal rejection of aging is rooted in fear of the wise woman, we can begin to approach our own aging process with courage and pride.

Merry
Love it, love it. Yeah. That's good. Yeah. So we are watching the world.

Sheila
Exactly. Okay. So I'm going to put links to everyone in the podcast notes. People social media, and carlita. I'll put links to your song. The strong one. Is it on YouTube? Like, can people watch it or. Yeah, yeah, yeah okay. And Merry, I will put links to your book re becoming re becoming which is just awesome.
It's, I'll put links to the podcast that you did with me too, but I just found you encapsulated so many different things in therapy and made it really, really easy to understand, you know, like what is trauma, what is attachment, what is all of these great things that, that, that people always talk about? And, really did some practical suggestions on how to grow in those areas.
So I just I found it a really practical, educational book.
So I'll put links to that. And, Rosemary, what do you want people to find you. I know you've got, like, a, a job that isn't as out there anymore.

Rosemary
Yeah, well, I'm not out. I'm not doing as much speaking, like, nationally or anything that. But we're actually developing a new marriage curriculum, and a relational curriculum for college students and young marriages. And so, yeah, the cardboard edu is the website. And yeah, we do a lot also workplace relationships. But I just this I so my doctoral work was actually on women on leadership and some of the what does gender bias look like.
And that was really really an interesting work. And so this I have a very deep passion, to help women find their voice. And I think if we can refrain, reframe that I said it again, we can reframe, even what menopause is. Let's let's sprinkle it into when we do a presentation and not just as a joke, I'm having a hot flash, but actually speak really positively about the role that we as, as older women have.
But let's shift it a little bit. Even one degree can send us in a different direction.

Sheila
Because I think menopause is when you find your strength. Yeah. That's where you find your strength and you find your voice and it's great.

Kelita
And a new confidence.

Sheila
Yes yes yes.
All right. Well thank you my friends. Thanks for joining me.

Rosemary
Thank you.

Merry
Because this is awesome. It was such a great conversation.

Sheila
I hope you take away from all this is that yes, menopause can be super confusing and difficult, but it's a good thing. It ends up being a good thing. And I know that I found my voice. So many people say that when menopause comes, they find their voice and that's important. That's a great that's a great thing to have happen to you.
So you don't need to be scared, but you do need to be aware. And if you're going through stuff that's really bad, talk to your doctor about it because you shouldn't have to suffer. You really shouldn't. But as we are finding our voices, a lot of times we do start to, you know, wonder about a lot of the things we've been taught in our church.
And so, again, I'm just I just want to reiterate how good the book, Better Ways to Read the Bible is by Zach Lambert and encourage you to get it because it's so helpful and it really can show you that there is a different way of seeing Jesus. So thank you for joining us on the Marriage podcast, and we'll see you again next week.
Bye bye.