Episode 296: How to Avoid Inadvertently Giving Your Kids Sexual Hangups

We all want to raise kids without sexual hang-ups, but a lot of Christian parents are accidentally creating the very problems they're trying to avoid. Rebecca and I dive into the three biggest ways this happens: being way too open about your own sex life with your kids (no, they don't need to know what you and your husband did last night), making a federal case out of normal teenage sexual development like masturbation, and approaching pornography with so much shame and "sin talk" that you actually make the problem worse. But here’s the good news: our course, The Whole Story, will give you the tools and language to appropriately talk about all of these things!

Then Keith joins me to tackle that age-old marriage question about whether wives just need to have more sex to make husbands nicer - spoiler alert: you're asking the wrong question entirely, and obligation sex isn't going to save your marriage.

THE WHOLE STORY COURSE!

Check out our sex and puberty course--it's on sale until Monday September 22 at midnight! 

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LINKS MENTIONED:

• Our books She Deserves Better, The Great Sex Rescue, and The Marriage You Want

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction & Course Promotion
• 1:35 How Parents Give Kids Sexual Hang-ups
• 3:47 Don't Include Kids in Your Sex Life
• 9:50 What is normal sexual development in kids & teens?
• 14:57 [Ad] Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse
• 15:40 (Cont.) What is normal sexual development in kids & teens?
• 17:34 Handling Pornography Without Shame
• 33:29 The Whole Story Course Updates
• 38:46 Keith Joins: Marriage & The Sexual Obligation Narrative

Transcript

Sheila
How might you be giving your kids sexual hang ups without realizing it? I'm Sheila Gregoire from baremarriage.com, where we like to talk about healthy, evidence based biblical advice for your sex life and your marriage. And I am joined today by one of my kids, Rebecca Lindenbach.


Rebecca
That's me. 

Sheila
And this is a really fun week on bare marriage. We do this every year where we have a big sale and we talk up our course. The whole story for parents talk to their kids about sex and puberty. And you know, I'm constantly getting messages on social media saying, Sheila, I'm really looking to talk to my kid about sex. And I found this curriculum from focus on the family. Do you think it's any good? And I'm like, we have one.

Rebecca
We have one.

Sheila
Just get ours. But a lot of you guys didn't know. And so, you know, please, if you if you only follow in the podcast, you may miss some of this. So make sure you're on our email list on our social media channels. We have those links below. But we do want to talk about how we might do stuff to give our kids sexual hang ups.

Rebecca
So we were literally trying to figure out what to talk about, this podcast, what to title it. And we were like, what should we do? Like how to not give your kids sexual hang ups? And I was like, we can't guarantee that. Like, let's just talk about the the ways that parents might accidentally be doing it instead. Yes.

Sheila
So Becca and I are going to talk about this for a couple minutes, and I'm going to bring my husband, Keith, on the second half of the podcast to have to continue the conversation we started last week whether more sex makes you happier. So that's coming up. But first, how might you give your kids sexual hang ups? Becca?


Rebecca
Well, there are a multitude of ways, mother. And what about the ironic thing about doing this podcast is specifically, obviously, the elephant in the room. As always, is that we are a mother daughter duo who talks about sex and research sex and writes about sex for a living. Yes, like that is weird. That is not normal. Yeah, and people, when they hear that have one of two reactions, it's either like, oh my gosh, that's so fun. Ha ha! Or oh my gosh, I could never. Yeah.
And it's like I very rarely get it in between. It's either like what? Like yeah, obviously that's fun. I talked to my mom about sex all the time or it's I think I would spontaneously combust.
Yeah. The funny thing is I'm the one in the middle. Yeah. Which is so funny because we talk about sex in general constantly.
Very in-depth conversations between me Mum and Joanna, often about clitoral versus oral versus like what it's like what researchers say is like, exactly like, okay, what happens? Is there a way that we could measure if oral sex in this specific way is like, you know, like we talk about these, these topics so frequently and it doesn't faze me.
And then as soon as it even remotely becomes personal, I fully shut down.

Sheila
Yes.


Rebecca
And that's not a hang up. It's because I am someone who values privacy very highly. Which people I find weird because we have a podcast. We're kind of online personalities but I value privacy actually quite strongly. Yeah. Which I think is, is is healthy. It's it's good. There's no problem talking about sex, but I just find it really funny talking about, you know, having giving your kids hang ups and stuff on the podcast where we are a mother daughter duo talking about sex, because clearly we don't have anything.

Sheila
But but I think that's because we talk in the general and not the specific. Yeah I know okay. Yeah. Let's let's talk about the first one because there's been things I've been saving over the last year or so where people have said things and I'm like, oh, we need to address that.

Rebecca
Okay. Okay. And none of this is meant to be like calling out, okay. But there's a little bit of a calling in. Yes. All right. I have heard from many. We have. We all. Everyone hears from from many people who have all these jokes about wanting to raise kids, the sexual hang ups. And so they're super open about their own sex life. With the child's father?

Sheila
Yes.

Rebecca
Or vice versa. If it's a man for the mother. Can I just say... You don't have to have an exhibitionist sexual lifestyle in order to have your kids not have hangups about sex.

Sheila
Yes.

Rebecca
If anything, that seems like a recipe for hang ups about sex.

Sheila
Yes.

Rebecca
If your kids are frequently complaining about hearing you have sex, about knowing when you're having sex if you're open about not just the fact that you have a sex life, but specifics about like, oh yeah, you guys have to be out of the house tonight because ha ha ha. You won't want to hear what's going on... I have just talked to enough people about their particular sexual hang ups that that seems to be a recipe for one in many, many children.

Sheila
Not all. Not all. Yeah.

Rebecca
I think a lot of this is also individual.

Sheila
Yeah. Like, but but it is true. Like, we could be really open about sex in general. You can be able to talk about like what oral sex is. You know, how how people might have high levels of desire. You know what? What different body parts look like? Like you can be super open with your kids without ever telling them last night, "You know what your dad and I did?"

Rebecca
Oh, yeah. We tried last Friday for the first time, and we know, like, okay, like, your kids don't need to know that about you.

Sheila
Your kids just need to know about sex and that you are okay with your kids knowing about sex.

Rebecca
Yes, exactly. And I think, and again, like, I think a lot of this, there's going to be some kids who are just not affected at all. But I just we've heard from so many people who were like, my mom was really open about sex, and it seriously screwed me up.

Sheila
Yeah.

Rebecca
Because they weren't they they they were in essence then that use all of your experience sex, your picture, picturing your mom. Yeah.

Rebecca
Yeah. Yeah. It's just kind of weird. You know, if you're just someone who, like, maybe your kids know exactly what's going on. Maybe get a less squeaky bed, maybe move around. Where rooms are. If your kids are hearing things that are going on that maybe introduce privacy back into sex, because I think what often happens and what we hear from people all, quite frequently is, is they, they, you know, they get freedom with sex for the first time and they enjoy it. And freedom is good. Freedom that encroaches in other people's boundaries is is not. Yes.

Yeah. So it's a very simple.

And, very gentle reminder that you also might be feeling a lot of pressure because of how society seems to talk about how we should talk about sex with our kids. And there's a lot of pressure to be the cool mom who totally gets it and is one of the girls. And you have permission to have a private life that is separate from your children.

Yeah. You don't need to force yourself into some box of this massively. What the. Like the the stereotype of the sex positive mom where, like, nothing's off limits. Even my own experiences. I thinking about like common like think about like Gilmore Girls. So like, you don't have to be Lorelai Gilmore. Who the Rory constantly knew who what was going on.

You know, you don't. Or the more recent shows like Ginny and Georgia or, like, you don't need to be one of these people who your sex life is a matter of conversation with your kid.

Sheila
Yeah. And I think that like, you know, there's a difference between telling your kids I did things in my teenage years that I regret and I was really promiscuous. There's a difference in saying that and saying, oh my gosh, the first time that I, that we did this particular sex act, I had an orgasm.

Rebecca
Or something like, seriously.

Sheila
There is a difference, right?

Rebecca
Like it doesn't always have to be even regret. You can even just like, oh yeah. No, like mom. Like I made those decisions and like, now this is what I want you to do. Like, it doesn't like there's there you can have conversations about stuff, but there's a very big difference between talking about these things as concepts versus including your children in your sex life.

Sheila
Yeah, that's a really different feel. And there's actually a freeing part of this because I just want to say to like, if you're someone who has never actually enjoyed sex, like if sex has always been difficult for you, you don't actually need to tell your kids that. You can just tell them the general, you know, that God made sex to be great.
And so just because you've had a difficult time, don't worry that you're going to pass that on to your kids. As long as you're able to talk to them about the general in a healthy way. Yeah. You know. Like important because here's here's here's what it is. Your kids I really do think should there's not a lot of shoulds in the sex when it comes to teaching kids about sex. I really do believe they should be able to come to you with questions with mom. I heard about a hand job. What's a hand job, right? Like.
And you just tell them it's like a hand job is this. They should be able to talk to you about stuff that they're hearing in school, about questions about what does or how would how would you do oral sex? Like where does the mouth go?

Rebecca
Yeah. Like you can have those conversations, and not have like elbow, elbow nudge, nudge, wink wink about mommy's sex life. Yeah. And I think that's that's that's just the difference.

Sheila
Yeah. And what we did find again, to reiterate in, in our research for our books, she deserves better. There is no downside to more information. Yes. When it's general information okay. Like the more information the higher your child self esteem, the more likely she is to make good decisions about what she does with her own body as a teenager, the less likely she is to get into abusive situations, the more likely she is to marry someone good.
So there is no downside to more information. Okay. It's not like if you tell them about masturbation they're going to start masturbating. That actually does not correlates anyway. But there's the flip side of it, which I think is actually almost more important. Yeah. Which is we need to give our kids some privacy.

Rebecca
Yeah. This is hard. This is hard. And I'm not talking about. Okay. Please, Hear me. This is not what we're talking about. We are not talking about giving your kids privacy so they can, you know, go rent a hotel room at 14. Or go get pregnant. We're not talking about raising latchkey kids.

Sheila
Yeah, we're. You know, if you know your child is having sex, you need to get involved, make sure they're safe, etc., etc. you need to have this conversation. That's not what we're talking about right now, though. I mean, the tendency of Christian parents, especially to start conversations with their teenage kids like, like 15, 16, 17 about masturbation and about pornography and getting super private about it.

Rebecca
So like so like crossing their boundaries.

Sheila
Crossing their boundaries. Yeah.

Rebecca
Well, I think it's really stressful, right? Because like sexual activity, exploration and curiosity, like, I guess like like, okay, last week on the podcast, we talked about the three categories of sexual desire. Right. Let's talk about the three categories of sexual exploration in teenage years. Okay. It isn't happening, which is also something that we should be paying attention to. Make sure. Because that's also like, why aren't we having crushes and trying to like, like be flirty and stuff? Let's make sure that we're getting the social skills and the confidence and that we we have no sexual hangups. Right. So there's the nothing's happening.
Normative non dangerous sexual exploration. Yes.

And then uh oh zone. Right. We have it. We have the three. So like in the oh zone you have your 14 year old having unprotected sex right.
You have your kids who are being very careless in sex and they're using, other people for sexual release. You have actual pornography problems where it's causing them problems, and they're they're having issues and they are not in control of what's going on. Yeah. You have chronic masturbation as the only emotional coping skill tool, and you were having anger outbursts as a result, right?
You have like, that kind of stuff going on in the, uh oh zone.

Sheila
And then you do need to deal with it.

Rebecca
Oh, so you don't get privacy anymore. No, Like, that's like, I'm sorry if you are having risky sex at 15 years old, mom and dad get to get involved. It's not fair. It's not pretty. No one likes it. It's necessary. We are in the, uh oh zone. Right?

Sheila
And we we help you do that in the whole story, by the way. Intercourse. Yes.


Rebecca
Problem is, is, the vast majority of stuff that happens which makes parents very uncomfortable is in that middle zone. Yeah.
Your kid discovers masturbation.

Sheila
Yeah.

Rebecca
That's not necessarily Uh oh, yeah. Like that's just they discovered masturbation. Kids masturbate. The majority of kids masturbate. Let me call you kids. Girls. You say? Yes. Kids. Yeah. Like they're all figuring it out, right? Yeah. But the number of emails that we get will be like, my three year old son has begun to masturbate. Is he. Is this the battle that Steve was talking about? I'm like, he has a penis. It's right there. It's stretchy and he can touch it. He's gonna do all sorts of horrible things that will make you just cringe and be like, how? How is that not punishing? But when. But like when a child is doing it, it's not sexual. It's like, yes, this is this is just about pleasure and exploration. You know, when a teenager is 15, 16, 14 it is sexual.

Sheila
It is sexual because, yeah, they're trying to have sexual feelings or thinking about sex, etc. it's sexual.

Rebecca
But it's still not something you have to have a family meeting over necessarily. I'm just saying picture Tiffany. Tiffany is 14 years old. Tiffany has found out that if she rubs herself a certain way in her bed, it feels good and she does it and at one point her mom walks in while she's doing it and she's mortified. And then her mom has two choices. Her mom can either move on and act like it didn't happen because this is a normative part of sexual development and is not a problem and is not causing emotional issues this is not a daughter who is can't go to sleepovers because She'll start masturbating in front of other people.
Like this is just regular sexual development. Or Tiffany's mom can get together the three spiritual leaders in Tiffany's life, and they can meet at, at someone's house, and they can have tea, and they can just lay hands on Tiffany and just pray for her to have self-control.
Which one do you think is gonna screw Tiffany up? I'm just saying yes. I'm just saying. Yeah. You know, like the vast majority of kids will experience their bodies and most of them, it'll just kind of be what it is and not be a problem. Yeah, like most of them if you put a magnifying glass on it and you're like. And by the way, everyone knows about this and everyone is watching you and everyone is hoping that you don't make a mistake. And everyone...
I'm just saying that sounds like hell yeah. Yeah.

Sheila
If you decide, you know. Well, now we have to sit down and have a big conversation the next day that that can be really shaming to even if you don't mean it to be an even if you practice how you're going to do it. So that I'm not shaming until, you know, Tiffany, this is what you're experiencing is normal.

Rebecca
Yeah, you can if you can say like hey, I walked in on you.
That sucked. That was awkward. I'm sorry. Do you know what masturbation is?
And if she says yes, mom, obviously I know what masturbation is. Yeah.
Then you be like, we will have this conversation separately when it's more natural. But if she's like no then you can be like okay, this is what it is. And if you have any questions you can come talk to me and you can just move on.

Sheila
Yeah, but if you like, we need to have a big talk now. Yes. That is it is if you tie it to shame.
And this is this is the thing that I really want to talk about is because this is what Christians tend to do, is that we pair sexual exploration and sexual desire in teenagers with sin. Yes and we do it. We do it with boys a lot.

Rebecca
Yes.

Sheila
So, you know, boys and this is, this is one of my big critiques of, of the whole every man's Bible idea is that we, we talk to boys as if when they notice that girls have boobs and they get excited about that and they get an erection about that, and they have lusted after her because we're not clear what lust is.
And then we tell them that God is angry at them for lusting. So it's like they are having what is absolutely normal physiological and sexual thoughts about a girl.

Rebecca
But God hates boners.

Sheila
But God hates boners. And so God must hate me. And and you're putting boys in an impossible situation because there's no way that they can please God now.

Rebecca
Exactly.

Sheila
Okay, then there's the really tricky one. Yes. Okay which is how we handle pornography.

Rebecca
Yeah.

Sheila
Because I, I'm a big believer that porn is a huge social justice issue. Okay? I don't even care whether it's consensual porn or not. They've done enough studies that show that even consensual porn, they're not really consenting. In a large case, you have no way of telling what's actually consensual or not. We know the porn is really violent.
We know that it's very misogynistic. We know that it can warp your way of just experiencing real intimacy during sex. Like, it's it's not a healthy.

Rebecca
We know that it increases the risk of becoming a perpetrator of intimate partner violence and for boys, and of being a victim of intimate partner violence for girls.

Sheila
Yeah. And we talk all about these things and the whole story. But you know what? If we had that conversation with our kids instead of just the sin conversation, we would probably do better.

Rebecca
Yeah.

Sheila
Because what often happens with our teenagers is we focus on porn as a sin. Okay? And I am not trying to say that it's not. 

Rebecca
I do think there's a difference between a 15 year old and a 35 year old girl, and especially the 12 year old who has shown it at a birthday party by another friend versus a 47 year old who's getting his who's getting fired from his job. So you won't stop watching porn at work.

Sheila
Yeah. And and we also know that, like, close to 90%, like, even more of boys are going to watch porn at some point in their teenage years.

Rebecca
And the majority of girls.

Sheila
Huge number of girls will as well. That doesn't mean it's going to become a problem for everybody like it, but it just it increasingly is a normal part of teenage development. That's not good. Nope. I'm not saying that's okay.

Rebecca
Nope.

Sheila
But as we're talking to our kids about porn and we do need to be, I think one of the problems that we have and this this is about sex in general, actually is what we do is like we see everything is a sin. So we talk about this as God is mad at you because you're doing this. Right.
And it's almost the same way we see premarital sex. It's like we picture God up in heaven, and it's like he has a deck of 52 cards, okay? And he just deals them out and whatever falls on this side is a sin. And whatever falls on the side, is it? Yeah. Right. And so if it falls to the side, it's a sin and we're going to tell one of you can't do these things.

Rebecca
Yeah, exactly.

Sheila
But if it's on this side it's not. And so we, we kind of treat it like it's arbitrary what God said was a sin or not, as opposed to saying, wait a minute, why did God say these kinds of things aren't good for us? Right. And I think if we approached our teens with that question. Yeah. Of why did God say these things aren't good for us as opposed to you have me got angry and you need to confess to Jesus.
Yeah. Or the other one that I hear a lot when we compare it to premarital sex is, I think porn is the new purity culture. I know we've said that before where we tell our kids, if you watch porn, your brain will rewire, right? Which is not true. I'm so sorry. It's just not. What they have found is.

Rebecca
Yes, there are different. Like your neurological scans can be different if you're a chronic porn user versus not when it comes to sexual stimuli. Absolutely no one's no one's doing that. Our brains are designed to rewire constantly. Everything rewires our brains like you are your brain is rewired by reading. Your brain is rewired by what kind of food you eat. Your brain is rewired like our brains are plastic organs that are meant to wire and rewire. And that does not mean that you are used up. That doesn't mean that you're damaged goods. It doesn't mean you're not gonna be a good spouse someday. It doesn't mean you're not gonna be able to experience, good intimate sex. It doesn't mean any of those things.
Even if you are starting to have, like, symptoms, I guess, of chronic porn use. You are not damaged goods. And I think that's what's missing from the conversation, because what we hear as kids often is this is a big scary thing that if I do it, I am now contaminated. Yeah, I am now a porn user.
That's an identity the same way that I'm now not a virgin, was there? I'm used up, I'm crumpled up paper, I'm spit in water. And I think we can, we can inadvertently when we talk to kids about adult porn use, which is different than adolescent porn use. Let's be clear, does not mean adolescent porn uses. Okay, but there are different markers among someone has a porn issue at 42 versus someone who has a porn issue at 14, okay, 14 year olds do not have the cognitive capacity of a grown up, which means it is a different situation here. But when we talk about porn use as a one size fits all, and we're talking the same way about the 41 year old who is forcing his wife to act out sexual fantasies with the 14 year old, who had a one week binge because he found porn for the first time.
And now he's very, you know, he's he's having a hard time stopping, but he's 14. Yeah, those are not the same situations, but we're treating them like they are in the purity culture. Did the same thing. A girl who kissed the wrong boy was treated the same as someone like, as someone who was, using and tricking people to get sex just for their own pleasure.
Like, yeah, simply going too far with your boyfriend, who you love. And it was an accident is treated the same as actually actively looking for one night stands where you don't even know their names.

Sheila
And what happens when we do that is that we really cause a lot of shame.

Rebecca
Yes

Sheila
A lot of shame. And Sam Perry has done a ton of work on porn and evangelical men especially. And what he found is that evangelical men actually have a harder time quitting porn. Yes, than the general population, because porn is so wrapped up in your identity as an evangelical and it's so wrapped up in shame. And so evangelicals can't just decide, oh, this is bad for me. I'm going to I'm not going to do it anymore. They struggle with it so much more. And so I just want you to hear that, especially if you're a mom. Because I know we have so many moms listening to us who are coming out of really destructive marriages or marriages where your husband was a chronic porn user and did treat you terribly and was really quite perverted because of it, and then you find your 14 year old using porn and you see him through that lens. But he hasn't become your ex-husband or your husband.

Rebecca
He's still a child.

Sheila
And if we can approach this rather than like, you know, you're disgusting or you did something disgusting, or your a sinner or even just this is now scary and this is now a big deal.
If we can just say, okay, you know, what does God want for us? God wants wholeness. God wants health. God wants us to thrive and point to something which takes away from that.

Rebecca
Yep. And also this is just not good for you. And so let's just do you need to figure out how we can just not have this be your crutch, your emotional crutch, because it's just not good for you? I want you to be someone who grows up, who isn't reliant on self-soothing techniques when he's having a bad day. I just think that's not healthy. That's not what I want for you long term. And so, you know, what kinds of things do you think would make it easier to stop?
It doesn't need to be this big thing of if you don't stop, this is going to happen and you're going to have erectile dysfunction.
Everything is like, It's like it's never going to work again. It's never going to work again. Like, you don't have to do the whole scary thing, and it doesn't need to be a big deal. And that's not us saying porn isn't a big deal. But what it is saying is that this has become, like you said, it's become a normative part of sexual development, and that means that everyone else is also actually like this is one of those few things where everyone else actually is also doing it.
And if you look at the other kids in the class and you think, oh my gosh, but look like Brady is such a nice boy, I wish that he could be like Brady. Brady's probably watching porn. Statistically speaking. And like, this is not me saying, well, because everyone's doing it, just give up. What I'm saying is it's easier to put it in perspective when you realize, wait, this has happened to pretty much everyone who has been a teenager since 2006. Yeah, virtually everyone has.

Sheila
But it hasn't become a problem for everyone.
It has for some, but not for everybody. And and it is more likely to become a problem for that person as an adult if they're super shamed as a teen. And if there's other there's lots of other issues.

Rebecca
Yeah. I will say, like, I think that as parents we have to be honest about our kids. You know, and I do think in the porn discussion, like, you have to there are certain things that make you higher risk of having serious problems later on. Like like, let's be honest, does your kid have social skills or are they a bit of a loner? Like, do do they feel competent in the romantic realm? Do they have multiple areas of competencies?
Are they someone who, has self-confidence and high self-esteem? Are they? And if the answer is no, the problem is not porn. The problem is that thing that you answered no to and they're turning to porn because of that deficit.

Sheila
Yeah. You know, so the more you can get your kids involved in part time jobs that they excel at in hobbies, even if it's like, nerdy, it doesn't matter.

Rebecca
Yeah.

Sheila
Just let them be interesting in something else.

Rebecca
I was a part of a D&D group that had two of the sweetest little 14 year olds where we let them join, and they just they didn't have anyone to play D&D with. And so they joined our pair, our our table. That was like all moms. And it was the sweetest thing. It was like all moms and dads like it was adorable. But and that's and.
Again, that's not to say that like the, the, the quote unquote, like the popular kids who could get any girl or get any guy, they don't struggle with porn. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that, A lot of kids, the way that you turn to porn is because of of an area where we're feeling lonely, we're feeling sad, we're feeling self-conscious, and it's easier to break out if you have a good foundation. Yeah. So that's that's I'm not saying that this only happens to like certain categories. Kids.

Sheila
Obviously we're talking about children and kids. Not girl, not boys.

Rebecca
Yeah boys I'm sorry kid girls. It can be girls too. But I'm just saying that if your kid has that foundation, it's going to be easier for them because, like, if for a big one, I'm just going to give an example of why we're talking about this, okay? A big one that we hear from people who talk about teens and porn is get your kids to play with their to, to hang out with their friends doing sports or in person instead of just all alone on their computer, that's a lot easier if your kid has friends.

Sheila
Yeah.

Rebecca
Like, I know that's harsh, but it's like that's why I'm saying, like, it's a lot easier to deal with this issue if you have ways to deal with this issue. Right? So deal with the underlying, things that will help your kid feel confident, competent and like I've got this. My life is going to be fine. Yeah. And it'll just be easier to handle some of these bigger problems, but I just, I just think that the, the family interventions can often end up making the problem.

Sheila
Oh, yeah. Like, we have to have a family meeting and a laying on of hands because somebody walked in on someone watching porn that that memory is going to stay with that child for the rest of their life.

Rebecca
And like, sometimes there's need for intervention, obviously.

Sheila
Yeah. If we're talking about like.

Rebecca
The, the chronic sleep issues, the chronic things, not if I tell you, but this, this.

Sheila
But not if we're talking about the normative sexual exploration.

Rebecca
And I think that there's I think that what I just want parents to know is you've likely been taught, if you were raised in evangelicalism, that this is a binary things are good or things are bad situation where either your kid is okay or they are not okay.

Sheila
Yeah.

Rebecca
Your kid is in adolescence.
Adolescence sucks.
Adolescence is the gray zone. There are kids who I grew up with who did everything right, who are in bad situations today, and there are kids who grew up doing everything wrong, who are thriving today. And that is uncomfortable for us as parents to grapple with. That is not fun to think about. I would really love to be able to put my kids in the category of good and going to turn out fine, or like bad and not going to terrified, so I have to intervene now.
That's easier. And that's not often how it is. And that's why it's tricky with things like masturbation, with porn, with, you know, catching your kid, making out with someone behind the Tim Hortons or like. You know, like, whatever it is. There is a lot of this level is like, okay, but we're kind of in the messy in between, and you're going to have to use your discretion and you're going to have to use your nuance, but you have permission to take a step back if you feel like you don't want to make things weird, and you have that gut feeling of, I, I know I'm supposed to have this heartfelt conversation about porn with my kid if I find them, but like, I already had these conversations and like, he I don't know if it's a problem.
You have permission to kind of feel things out.
And, and there's not a right or wrong way for every kid. And that's what we're trying to do with the whole story. Yeah. Is at least help you have those conversations so that when these tricky things come up, at least you know that you have the same information. So you can start from the same place, right? You can have these conversations that are being like, oh, now that I found you doing this thing, we're going to have the porn talk.
Now, you've already had the porn talk, which means having these conversations when you find out your kids watching porn becomes a lot easier because you can start on shared language like, hey, we just need to mention it. I don't want this to become a big deal. I know because I saw it on the family computer history. You were looking at something, and I just want to say I do a check in like, do we need to talk about this or are you like how how are we handling this? Right?
Like, you can have these conversations with your kid as weird as they are, because you have this shared conversation and then if they're consistently having problems or you notice that things do, hey, I just wanted to check it. Yeah. You know, you can have those conversations, without it immediately becoming a Bible study about how badly they've sinned. And can you please ask for repentance, like ask for forgiveness before God right now?

Sheila
I don't know. It's just I just worry about the little the little kids who are just trying and trying to figure out how this is so hard growing up as a kid today, so kids have stuff that they have to deal with it that that my generation never did.

Rebecca
Yeah. And we wouldn't be asking. And this is I think what's tricky is we wouldn't ask a six year old to repent if they looked, if they watched it porn. But we would ask a 12 year old and I'm gonna be honest, a 12 year old is not that different from a six year old in this area. Yeah, they're just not.

Sheila
Yeah.

Rebecca
And I think that's what's tricky, right?

Sheila
Yeah. So yeah. So that's just that I think that's why that that's how kids get a lot of hangups, because we personalize it. Either we personalize it about ourselves or we cause a lot of shame and do a lot of like, sin language as opposed to what is healthy, what is whole. How do we make good decisions?

Rebecca
And also in general, having those conversations before this comes up? Yes, that's the big one we want to hammer in. It's so much easier to have a healthy conversation about this if you've already had the conversation. Yeah, please don't put it off. Please have these conversations so that also then if your kid does not want to start watching porn, they already have the information.
And then maybe they come to you and they say, I don't have any impulse control. Like we need to figure this out. Or maybe they just decide on their own. They, they because because we talk about it in the whole story. What kinds of things, do you tend to do when you're watching porn? Because you're bored? Just because you're lonely? You can think about these things and try to figure out what are other things I can do when I feel that way.
Yeah, they already have the tools themselves.
And that's empowering for your child as well. So this doesn't have to become every man's battle or some unbeatable sin, as we often talk about it, but rather a very rough speedbump that many kids go through in adolescence and that your child can, navigate.

Sheila
Well, yeah, exactly. So why don't you tell tell people how the whole story got started? Because it is kind of funny. Okay.

Rebecca
Yeah. So literally, my sister and I were talking about all the things that.

Sheila
This was many years ago, I think you were 22 and Katie was 20 or.

Rebecca
Something, like, yeah, no, we were younger, we were younger. I was like, fresh married. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. We were pretty young. We were start talking about it, but we were talking about all the different things that mum did wrong when she was teaching us about sex and puberty and everything. And then mum said, well, if I did such a bad job, you should do a better one yourself. And we did. And so we made a course and that's how it started. And now we've revamped it. We've revamped it last year with some updated information because of our studies. And she deserves better about what kinds of information helped kids, have better sexual outcomes. And so, one of the big changes, let's talk about one of the big changes in the course since before, because also, there might be somebody who bought the course before and haven't revisited with your kids, but your kids are still the right age for it.

Sheila
Yeah. We, really explicitly talked about orgasms, which we hadn't before because we couldn't believe how important it was for girls, to know that the female orgasm existed young.

Rebecca
Even at ten. Yeah. And so we don't, so in the original version, we talked about how sex feels good and is pleasurable. We explicitly explain what an orgasm is. And, like I said, but in a way where it's it's age appropriate, obviously. Yeah. But so that from the get go, all children, boys and girls understand that sex is something that is mutual.
It's not something that boys take from girls or girls give boys. Yeah, it's something that is both of you are motivated for when you're a grown up... and we emphasize that for kids.

Sheila
And then in the older version, what we added, because we have two versions we have we'll be at four. So if the younger version for like 10 to 12, in the older version for like 13 to 15 for both girls and boys. And in the older version we talk more about sexual arousal, what it looks like, what it feels like.
Because we found that when girls understand girls, especially when they understand what sexual arousal is than if they're in a makeup situation and they get aroused, it's less likely to take them by surprise. They're less likely to just get carried away and just have sex.

Rebecca
Yeah, knowledge is power.

Sheila
So like that's what research showed. So we wanted to include that. And if that sounds like a horrible conversation to Have with your kid like let us do it for you. I'm sorry. Do you want to explain what sexual arousal feels like to your daughter or your son? I didn't think so. We'll do it for you. Yes. For a pretty low price, let's be honest.
Yes it is. And so, we price the course really low. You can buy a single version, like the girls young version. Or you can buy the complete girls, complete boys, or, complete of both boys and girls, which you'll own for a lifetime. So you if you have, like, eight kids, you can work them all through it. And the feedback we've got is really good people really like like both of you and Katie in the girls version. And then the boys version. Connor and Daniel.

Rebecca
And again, if you bought the whole story, more than a year ago and you have not tried to think of it since, please go. Look, you have already been enrolled in.

Sheila
If you bought it, as long as you bought the complete version, if you bought the complete version before and, and, so make sure you go check out the updates, because there might be some conversations that you want to have with your child.
Yes. So that is on sale right now until Monday. And so the link to that is in the podcast notes. And you can take a look at it.

Rebecca
And now we're going to hand it over to my dad. Yes. Thank you in just a minute. But I do just want to reiterate before we head off as much as we'd like, there's just not one right answer. You know, your child, you can trust your gut if you have to have those hard conversations, kid. You have those hard conversations and feel proud of yourself for being willing to talk about it.
And if you also feel like your kid is just kind of doing the normal, like you're okay, so your kid has figured out what masturbation is and do you really have to talk about it? You know, they have the right information. You know, they're they're smart kids who make good decisions and you just don't want to. Yeah. To get in the way.
You also can trust your gut. And it's okay if you don't make the perfect call at every single moment. You are not fully responsible for everything. Your kid is a teenager. They're also making their own decisions, and they also can react in different ways. And I just want to take some of that pressure off where your kids are allowed to be a kid, and you're also allowed to remind yourself that this is the first time you've ever had to do this to, and so it's okay if it's awkward, it's okay if you don't make the right call every single time.

Sheila
That's why seeing it as a series of conversations, it's not just one exam. It's like it's a conversation that you keep having. Yeah, right. Throughout their teenage years. And it's going to change and it's going to impact you in different ways. But if you give them that information early, then you've got that really good foundation for those conversations later.

Sheila
Listen to this comment. A woman left on social media for me this week. My husband shared your program, the whole story with our son when he was about 11 and when the school gave their sex ed class. All the other boys were snickering and giggling and he was sitting cool and calm, thinking to himself, I already know all of this and more.
He is so respectful and sensitive of mine and his sister cycles. He treats girls with respect and kindness and looks for compatibility first. When thinking of what he is attracted to, he is set up so well for future dating relationships, and I am so grateful to you and your daughters for putting the program together. Isn't that what you want for your kids?
Check out the whole story. During its annual sale this week until Monday, September 21st at midnight. You don't want to miss it, because don't you want your kids set up well for the future? 

All right. I have brought my husband, Keith on the podcast, today. So we are not going to talk about how you want to give your kids hang ups about sex, because back I already talked about that, which is probably good.
I don't know if you want to jump into that. Instead, I'm going to put you on the spot for something equally awkward, okay? Okay. So last week on the podcast, Rebecca and I were talking about, the research into whether or not more sex makes your marriage happier. Right? And of course, it's a very nuanced conversation. Right.
Because it depends on what your marriage is like, what the quality of sex is like. Sometimes if you're just in a rut but you otherwise have a good marriage, then yeah, prioritizing sex definitely makes your marriage happier, but sometimes it just doesn't. And so I want to read a question that a reader sent in that kind of goes along with this, and then I'll get your thoughts on it.

Okay. So she said this. I was just thinking, we tell young girls that sex will not buy love or promise love, and they should protect themselves and be smart, play hard to get, make him wait. Respect yourself. But in marriage, we're told and sold that sex is the way to win our husbands love. Sex is the way to make him nice, to make him care.
That lack of sex is the ultimate excuse for men to justify their unwillingness to care or to be kind. And so it's just funny to me that something that is risky and definitely will not secure a man's heart or loyalty when dating becomes the only way to a man's heart and loyalty in marriage. 

Keith
Okay, she's got a point there.

Sheila
Yeah, she's definitely got a point there.

Keith
So I agree. I got so much I can say about that.

Sheila
Yeah okay.
And then she says, also, how do you break out of the cycle of a husband being unwilling to give when it's hard because he isn't getting sex and a wife was a hard time wanting sex from someone who won't be caring or kind. Is it just a battle of the wills? Does the wife just cave and just have sex and be the bigger person, even if she isn't into it?
Or does the man be kind, even when he feels very victimized by lack of sex? It's like, which came first, the chicken or the egg? Did the lack of sex wrecked the relationship, or did the lack of relationship wreck the relationship? I mean, I know the answer, but how do you get a man to understand, right? You know, so what were your thoughts on the beginning part?
Oh, because I think it probably feeds into the second part. Yeah.

Keith
I mean, the whole idea again, this is this is the thing we've tried to hammer this home so many times is that the evangelical church buys into this narrative that sex is something for men, okay? It is something for men that women give them. Yeah, right. But only when you're married.

Sheila
Yes.

Keith
Right. And this whole idea of, like, we tell them to play hard to get, as opposed to telling young women that, you know, you're going to have sexual urges, but there's a place and a time for that. And where your boundaries, what do you want to do? What do you not want to do? All those kind of questions and giving her, like, you know, agency over her own body and her sexuality?
Yeah, you know, that kind of stuff. Instead we say, you know, you don't have sex because that's God's will, because God's will is that you only give it to one man when he's when you're married to him, as opposed to talking about sex in a holistic, healthy way. Yeah. You know, and if we started with that supposition, then it wouldn't be this duty that women are supposed to provide to men, which is what the whole point is here, right?

Sheila
Yeah. And and I wonder, is, isn't that the heart of it, too? Because. Okay, so he feels like I can't connect unless I have sex and I can't be kind to you or caring to you unless I have sex. And isn't that all part and parcel of the same thing? Because when we teach guys, you know, sex is the way you feel connected.
Then is it any wonder that guys then feel like, well you're not giving me sex and that's my primary need. So why should I meet your primary need.

Keith
Yeah I think there's two parts of that. There's two elements that the first element is you know what you're directly saying, which is that we are teaching men that the only way to connect is sex or the manly way to connect sex. Yes. Right. Like like, you know, like if you're a man, this is where you get your connection.
Like touchy feely, romantic crap. That's for women. Men just take what they need, you know that. That's kind of nonsense. But then. But also there's a second element to it, which is like, if we are teaching men that you get things through sex. Then there's no relationship like we like we train men to see sex as something outside of your relationship yeah. And so and, and the default for men is sex is this thing. But you don't get it till you're married. As opposed to sex is a beautiful thing that two people do together because they both have agency, they both have desire and they come together and they do something wonderful together when they both want that. Right.
Do you know what I mean. Yeah. Like and it's, it's, it's just terrible.

Sheila
Yeah. And I think that whole thing about seeing sex as something separate from the relationship, what I see happening so much is that there's this idea that no matter what is going on in the relationship, the sex has to look the same. And you see this, you see stuff like this, like in Kevin Lemmon's book sheet music, where he says, you know, unless you're willing to have sex every 48 to 72 hours, don't get for the rest of your life, don't get married.
And he includes in that that even the postpartum period, even when she's having her period, you know, she needs to give him sexual favors every 48 to 72 hours because faithfulness, in his words, faithfulness is a two person job, right? So no matter what is happening, oh, he even includes even if she's ill, you know, even if she's not feeling her best, even if she's sick, she can give him sexual favors, right?
So no matter what else is happening in her life, she needs to be making sure that he gets sex every 48, 72 hours. And this is what men here to. Right? Like, no matter what is happening, even if there are babies, even if she's postpartum, even if she's exhausted because she hasn't slept with the baby. I'm still supposed to get my sex every 40 or 72 hours, because the sex isn't something which flows from our relationship.
The sex is something, like you said, that's external. That I'm just owed.

Keith
Yeah. No. And it's just it's it's not a Christian view, right? I mean, like, it's so the Christian view is that the body is good. Like like we're not we're not like Platonists. Like the the spirit is good. The body is evil. Like the body is good, like sex is good. All these things are good. They're part of God's creation, right?
But not every urge needs to be satisfied every time it comes up. Yeah, right. Like like if we if, you know, there's there's that sinful when you indulge every urge all the time, say.

Sheila
In first Corinthians nine when Paul says, like, I beat my body into submission. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, yeah. Like we are supposed to have mastery.

Keith
Yeah.

Sheila
Over our body. And it's a slightly different context. Maybe that's not fair to use that verse, but I think I think that.

Keith
But it's this, it's the same concept. Right. Like there's the two ditches. The one ditches total asceticism where we need to renounce our bodies and our bodies are evil and they're disgusting. And this is all horrible and wrong. And then the other one, which is, it's all fine. Just do whatever. Yeah. Right. And and and what? The evangelical church, instead of teaching that middle road of, you know, in regards to sex, chastity, which is that we have control of our sexual urges, that they're not evil in themselves, but that we have control and mastery of it through the Holy Spirit.
They've taught it's this I'll before you're married, and it's that I'll after you're married. So before you're married, it's evil and horrible and and and gross and don't do it. But after you're married, you get it whenever you want, whenever, however you want it. And that's totally godly. And it's ridiculous.

Sheila
You know what else is really ridiculous? The whole thing is that, the evangelical church is always talking about how all of these women are trying to seduce all these men. So these single women are trying to seduce you by what they're wearing, etc., etc. but that same church is constantly talking about how wives don't want sex. So it's like single women want sex, but married women don't.
Is that what they're really saying? Like, it's just it's just. I find the whole thing so ironic. Yeah, but, you know, her question is basically, okay, look, if my husband says he needs sex to being caring and kind, and I say that it's very hard for me to want sex if you're not being caring and caring and kind of.
Does somebody just have to go first? And I think my answer to that is that, and I don't mean this to dishonor anything. I think it's the wrong question.

Keith
Okay.

Sheila
Because, we're missing the point of what sex is, and I don't think you can get to a healthy relationship. I don't think you can get to a healthy marriage. I don't think you can get to any of that until you have a healthy view of sex.

Keith
Yeah. I mean, and a healthy marriage. If, if, if, if a wife sat down with a husband in a healthy marriage and said, you know, I just feel like you're so grumpy and cross with me all the time unless I have sex with you. But I don't really feel like having sex with you when you're grumpy and cross with me. So who's going to give the only healthy responses? Oh my gosh, I didn't realize you were feeling that way. Like, I don't want you to give me sex to placate me, so I'm nice to you. Like, like, oh my gosh, is that what I'm doing? Like, I need to do some soul searching or like, maybe you're you've you've taken a lot of these tropes from, you know, like teachings and you're internalized them.
But that's not how I feel. Yeah. Right. So and so they're starting on the wrong footing, which is that they are assuming that it is normal that guys only want sex and don't want relationship. Yeah. And that women only want relationship and don't ever say want sex. Right. And so yeah, you're not going to get to the right place on that pathway. You need to take two steps back and go, hey, what is sex really like? Do we expect this kind of stuff? And if this guy does feel yeah, no, I'm. I waited till I was married, and now that I'm married, I get it whenever I want. Then he needs to realize. Then you're basically saying this. Your wife has no choice, no agency. You know, like you want to take that away from her.

Sheila
And you're changing the definition of sex, right? Because we've talked about the sex is supposed to be something which is mutual, intimate, pleasurable for both. And the sex in this case is something which is not mutual and certainly not intimate. And I don't know if it's pleasurable or not, but highly unlikely. Right. So it's like merely giving someone intercourse. Yeah. Like saying it's okay if you use my body for intercourse. That is not sex. The way the Bible talks about it. Like in the good sense. Right. And, and we just need to get over that.
And I would just say, you know, if this couple wants to ever have a healthy marriage, then he needs to understand that sex needs to be something which is mutual and intimate. But if she just keeps acquiescing, we know that this marriage isn't going to be healthy. Yeah. Because your body can only take that for so long. And that's, that's really what we learned in our research for the, for our book. The Marriage you want is we saw this so dramatically that women can only put up with obligation sex for so long. And then the marriage basically becomes sexless, which it sounds like her marriage probably already is almost becoming sexless.
And so, yeah, you can make your body do it. You can say, well, he needs sex or he's just going to be grumpy, so I'll just give it to him. Kind of like you give your baby a stuffy, right? Like I'll just placate him like that. But there's no self-respect in that. No, there's no mutuality. It it erases the entire meaning of sex.
And so, yes, she can go through the motions, but what it's going to do is it's going to make her more and more resentful. It's going to make the chasm between them grow, even if he's able to treat her nicely. Do you remember the story in Every Heart Restored?

Keith
Which horrific story are you?

Sheila
It's the one that you always talk about for the book.

Keith
Where then? She's the human toilet for semen. Yes.

Sheila
Yeah, we're Fred Stoker, so this woman writes about how her husband was just like this guy. Yeah, right. He was totally grumpy if he didn't get sex. And so she decided, you know what? Fine. I will not say no for an entire year. I will not say no, and I won't tell you what I'm doing. I'll just. I'll just have sex when you want it.
And so she ended up having sex every day or even multiple times a day. And he never really got nicer to her. He just used her like crazy because she was willing.

Keith
Oh yeah. He had a field day. Yeah. This is like he was just this is great every every time. Like she get in the shower and as soon as she got in the shower he'd come in. Yeah. You know like that was, that was sort of the idea she couldn't get a moment's break.

Sheila
Yeah. And so it's not like he ended up being nicer to her or that they built a more intimate marriage.

Keith
She just. He just assumed that the now that the the amount of sex I could expect is greater.

Sheila
Yeah. And and it ended up wrecking things even more because she said at the end I just and those were literally the words I felt like a human toilet for semen. And we also wanted to put that quote in our book, The Great Sex Rescue. And at the time the editor said, that's just too much. You can't. It's just so awful.

Keith
I find so funny because people say you're taking these people out of context. Yeah, but then we're not allowed to quote them because what they said is so horrific. Yeah, that quoting them is being edited out of our book.

Sheila
Yes. Yeah. So with that quote had to come out. But that's the thing. Like if you just keep going through the motions when your husband is treating you like an object that doesn't build intimacy because it's betraying the very nature of intimacy. Yeah. Now, again, as Rebecca and I talked about last week, if that's not the case, if it's simply that, you know, your marriage is good, but you get really caught up in work, you're really busy.
You know, you're not prioritizing time to yourself enough so that you're not rejuvenated. And so sex just falls by the wayside, then, yeah, it might be a good idea, you know, to have more sex. And you might find that having more sex makes you both less grumpy. But that's not what we're talking about here.

Keith
That's because it's something that you both want.

Sheila
Yes.

Keith
Right. And this is the thing is because, like, I sound critical of guys sometimes when I talk about these things, but like, I was there like as a young married man, I was steeped in all this stuff about, oh, save it till you're married, and once you get married, you're going to have amazing sex and it's going to be awesome.
And I didn't see the underlying current of that was that your wife is, you know, not part of the equation. Like, once you get to have sex, you once you get married, you'll have as much as you want. That completely robbed my wife of agency. I didn't even see that. Because, again, the whole culture is male centric.
Women are there to help men. They're not agents of their own life. They're not that God doesn't have a plan for them. God has a plan for them to help your plan for your life. Right? That kind of nonsense. And I didn't even see it. Right. Because it's like most people, when you put it out, put the light on it like that, people are like, oh, I don't believe that.

Sheila
Yeah.

Keith
Everything you're saying is pushing people in that direction. Anyway, I was in that mindset and it was it was so much easier to blame Sheila for not wanting sex. Then for me to work on my crap. Yeah, and become the kind of guy who, when my wife didn't want sex with me to go, whoa, like, what am I doing?
What's what's what's going on? Like, what are the context here? Rather than saying, this is something I'm owed, I should be getting it. Yeah. It's so much easier to be in that owed mentality. Especially when you you don't realize that you're entitled. You just feel like this is God's will and I'm and my wife is depriving me. And it's just it's just it's harder work to work on yourself, but it's so much better when you get the other side, because when you're the kind of you're in the kind of marriage where this is not an issue because we both respect each other and we both want each other to be enjoying this.
It's not about, am I going to get it or not? Yeah, it's about how are we? What are we doing together? How we expressing our love together in every way, you know, not just in the bedroom. Yeah. When you're focused on that, you're healthier, you're happier. You know, like we talk about male loneliness epidemic. We talk about all these things, all these crises in the church, which are based upon the fact that we don't teach men to just be healthy, because if we had it, if we taught men to be healthy, we'd have to teach them to give up control and give up being in power over and give up being the, the, the leader and instead be a teammate. And if we taught that all of our little house of cards crumbles and and that's more important to us than relational wholeness. And it is a sad indictment upon us. And I just so guys, I'm not condemning you. I'm just saying be better. Get past that. Work on yourself. Make your relationship the priority, not your needs.
Yeah. You know anyway, so I, I a little bit of a diatribe.

Sheila
No I didn't it was great diatribe. Maybe we should just end it there. That was awesome because.

Keith
We can be better.

Sheila
Yeah right. You absolutely can. And so, you know, just just know that obligation sex isn't going to build your marriage. No. You know, what really builds your marriage is if you figure this out. So, hey, had your husband listen to the audiobook of The Great Sex Rescue or of the marriage you want, both of those books talk about getting over obligation sex and realizing the sex is meant for both of you.
And so if he doesn't get that, that's just heart. You know, you're not. And you going through the motions isn't going to build intimacy. That really isn't. So. Yeah. Figure that out. All right. Well, thank you for joining us on the Bear Marriage Podcast. Remember that the whole story is on sale right now. So this is our annual sale for it.
So do check out the podcast. Notes because the link for it is there. And you can get the sale if you buy the full version or the complete the full version for either boys or girls or the complete for everybody. That's a great sale. This is your chance to get that.

And yeah, we will see you again next week on the Bare Marriage podcast.

Bye Bye.

Keith
Bye.