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Episode 301: The 4 Categories of Euphemisms about Sex--that All Drive Us Batty!

• Sheila Gregoire • Season 9 • Episode 301

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 We're diving into the euphemisms used in Christian marriage books and by evangelical pastors, and when you translate them into actual language, it gets real creepy real fast. From Kevin Leman's "Mr. Happy" to Josh Butler's semen theology, these authors hide harmful messages behind flowery or vague language. When authors tell women to "give him a gift" while she's bleeding heavily or recovering from childbirth, they're actually telling her to perform sex acts while in pain—and that's just wrong. Most disturbing? The euphemisms that hide sexual assault and make it sound normal.

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Sheila 

Welcome to the Bare Marriage Podcast. I'm Sheila Wray Gregoire from BareMarriage.com,
where we like to talk about healthy evidence-based biblical advice for your sex life and your marriage that I am joined today by my daughter Rebecca Lindenbach. 

Rebecca 
Hello hello.

Sheila
And today we are going to talk about euphemisms. 

Rebecca
Yes. 

Sheila
And this is going to be a fun one. This is one that we figured out on a walk that we were on the other night. 

Rebecca
This is the one that sounded really great as a concept on a walk, and the more
that I'm thinking about the things I'm going to say in front of my mother on the internet, it's getting less and less great. So here's the concept. 

Sheila
Okay. 

Rebecca
Concept is, a couple weeks back now at the point this comes out. You posted a series of images to sub-stack and social media, where there was this quote about how women following their husbands in perfect leadership can show them the love of Christ. 

Sheila
It gives us a taste of the leadership to come where where Jesus our brides are. 
Rebecca
But like the question is, and then they put it on this picture of this like
happy loving family. It was filled with this. But what does imperfect leadership mean?
Right. It doesn't mean laughing in a field. 

Sheila
No. And so I took the same quote, and I put it on a
series of pictures, including, you know, one where a man is angrily yelling, one where a man is sitting on the couch while his wife is vacuuming while holding a baby. You know, one where a man has messed up the finances, one where a man has a clenched up fist. 

Rebecca
Yeah, like we're actual imperfect leadership kind of ideas. Like what would be what like options of what the imperfect leadership could have been when you put that quote over top of those images, suddenly it seems very, very different. So we thought, oh, it's like, oh, yes. So we thought what about sex? What if we
just translated a lot of euphemisms that are in these books by using the actual terms of what's being asked or what's being talked about? 

Sheila
Because when you do that, it's like, wow, that's icky.
But we get away with it because they aren't upfront about what they're saying. 

Rebecca
Yes.

Sheila 
And when you get upfront and you realize what they're saying, it's like, no, no, no, no, that's not okay.

Rebecca
Yeah. 

Sheila 
So yeah, we have four different examples of or four different categories of euphemisms we want to talk about today. Sure. Okay. So the first one, and some of them we've talked about before, but it's always fun to have it all in one place. Okay. First one is euphemisms that are
truly creepy. 

Rebecca
Oh, yeah. These are good ones. 

Sheila
These are truly, truly creepy. And of course, the person who does these the best by far, I think is Mr. Happy himself. Kevin Lehman. Kevin Lehman is sheet music and true story. When we were doing our research for the Great Sex Rescue,
we actually conducted focus groups on these euphemisms because we wanted to know was it just us?
Like when we read this and we were like, wow, that's a take. Like, are we the only ones reaction that way? So we read several things from Kevin Lehman to focus groups. And they all said,

Rebecca
To be incredibly clear. Yes. I read. 

Sheila
Yes. 

Rebecca
Things because my mother cannot keep a straight face in a focus group to save her life.

Sheila
She actually she actually kicked me out of a focus group.

Rebecca
I did. I kicked her out because you can't be like seeing what people's reactions are in your other one. Like, oh, this is worst. Like, you have to be on both face. 

Sheila
Yes. Anyway. Okay. So one of them is that Kevin Lehman likes to call his penis Mr. Happy. 

Rebecca
Which I'm like, why do we know this?

Sheila
Yes. I should not know what Kevin Lehman calls his penis. This is not something that I ever gave consent to knowing. But we all know that Mr. Lehman calls his penis Mr. Happy because he then says Mr. Happy likes to be kissed. Yes. And this is an example of what's the focus? 

Rebecca
Like, Mr. Happy likes to be kissed. Nothing. Nothing. 

Sheila
Oh, gosh. Okay. So here's the whole bit in context. Okay. For those women who want to serve up a special treat for their husbands, let's talk about making
Mr. Happy smile. Making and then there's here's the here's the heading. Making Mr. Happy really happy. Mr. Happy likes to be kissed. Nothing puts a smile on his face like a loving wife's oral caresses. 

Rebecca
Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, I think he's trying to be cute. We've talked about this before.
I'm just like, it's create the focus group was, is it a puppet show? That was someone who sounds
like a weird pornographic puppet show. Like Mr. Happy likes to be kissed.
Nothing puts a smile on his face more than his wife's oral caresses. And I'm just like, this is not the way we talk about oral sex. Yeah. And here's the funny thing. It's less creepy if you just use the language. 

Sheila
Yeah. Yeah. Like, if you just seem to say, Hey, lots of men really enjoy
oral sex. 

Rebecca
Even dudes like a blowjob. Like, yeah. You keep in that. That isn't as that is creepy.
You know, it's like, I feel so much less like you're going to be put on a list for it. Like, it's just this is so unnecessary. But a lot of it is because
we were so unable to talk about sex for so long. Right. And so it's like we have to use this youth missed a language in order to get past that discomfort versus just kind of honestly shocking people through the discomfort. I mean, like when when here's the thing, when we do events, you and I, or places they don't typically talk about sex. Yes. A couple of times, my mom has been like, we're just going to set the ground floor here. You're going to hear the words orgasm,
clitoral stimulation, ejaculation erection, all those things. So here we are orgasm, orgasm, orgasm, orgasm, orgasm. Let's go. And then we go in and that actually works. Yes. It really does.
And we gave this example in shoes, there was better to about talking about euphemistic languages, women's like

Sheila
Because he also he also talks about, he calls women's clitoris, your tender, her tender little friend, which I'm like, and talks about how fingers can dance on
the tender little friend or whatever. And it's just like, here's the test of whether it's creep, you're not imagine you're in a doctor's office and your feet are in the stirrups and your obi-gine comes in and says, so how is your tender little friend? Yes. It's like, are you creeped out? And it's like, yes, you are, because as soon as you talk about it in euphemistic language, you add a level of like shame and, and yeah, where there and also almost a level of intimacy between us and the author that you shouldn't have or us and the obstetrician, right? Like what you
need is to for it to be clinical, because the author is supposed to be explaining something to you clinically. 

Rebecca
And here's the difference too, like we're not saying you only can you like,
no one is dictating how you talk in your marriage and in your sex life. No,
God forbid you tell me, please don't. Like I just do whatever you want, but there is this level where I think Christian authors need to understand the difference between things being creepy and not, and you can do this test because there's lots of things that are unprofessional but not creepy to say. Like, so, okay, if you're, if you're a dude and you're going in to see someone about
your penis, right? Like the doctor should be using words like penis, because that's the word. If you used the word dick, it would be unprofessional, but not creepy. And if you used your magic pleasure wand, it would be, you should leave. Like, if you like, oh man, yeah, how's your dick feeling?
Like you'd be like, ah, that's a little, that's a little unprofessional for a doctor.

Sheila
Yes. 

Rebecca
He was like, okay, how's Mr. in pleasure wand? Like, I don't know.
There's a difference here guys. And I'm like, can we please stop using creepy euphemisms? It is okay to use crass language when you're talking about things like that. I would prefer that. Can we please just not use happy little friends? 

Sheila
And I think a lot of this, especially with a man saying it about a woman is there's a, there's this assumption that has been in the church, well, actually in society for decades or for centuries that, you know, men know about sex and women don't. And, and so women need to be taught. Yes. Because women don't naturally know
these things, whereas men naturally know all these things. And so he is going to bestow his knowledge on these poor women who know nothing. And it's simply not true. But, but, but, but, but when Kevin Lehman does this, he is reinforcing that idea that he knows stuff that women are just too embarrassed to talk about. And when you're trying to dispel shame, and, and he actually says
that in the book is that women feel way too much shame about sex. The way to dispel it is by being open. It's not by using euphemisms because euphemisms add shame. It's like saying we're not supposed to talk about this the way it really is. And I think that it's interesting. 

Rebecca
Again, like, we're all so comfortable using the word penis. Like most people are totally comfortable with the word penis. Most people are not comfortable with the word vulva. Now, to be fair, it's got, ooh, I was going to say it's got milk. That's, I don't know if Connor's going to keep this in. But I was going to say it has horrible mouth feel as a word. That doesn't seem. But it does, like vulva, like going, it doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't flow as well as penis. But I think that
there, we need to have like an ability to have a better word to there's been discussions about this in multiple areas where like we need a better word for like the female genitalia. Yes. Because no one wants to say labia or vulva. It doesn't feel, it just, yeah. That seems very clinical.

Sheila AD
Okay, people, every so often a book comes along that I just know will heal you guys and willconnect a bunch of dots for you. And I've got one to tell you about today. And thank you to Zondervid for sponsoring this podcast. Dorothy Greco's For the Love of Women launches next Tuesday October 28th. She is looking at misogyny, which is a word that we sometimes recoil from because
it sounds so woke. But misogyny is about how the systems that run our society are basically made to serve men and hold women back. They stop women from flourishing and they drive a wedge between men and women. So men don't flourish either. And I loved this book. I devoured it in one day. It does such a great job of encapsulating all the different areas of our society where women are
really affected and hurt. You know, we can think that men and women are equal now and there's nothing else to fight. But Dorothy shows how in medicine, in media, in government, in the church, in business, and especially with sex, our society bakes male entitlement into the cake and makes
the male experience the standard. So if people have ever challenged you saying, stop complaining, men and women are equal now, please read this book. It explains so much and it points us to where work still needs to be done. So pick up for the love of women today.

Rebecca
I know. Is it in the Nordic regions that are like Norway, Sweden, they start or somewhere around there? It's like the snipa or something? Because it's like the shape of a boat. Oh, that's why.

Sheila
Okay. If you are in Norway or Sweden, tell us. 

Rebecca
Check me in the comments. I would love to know that. But I think there's part of this reason where like we have all of these euphemistic words for men, balls, dick, that are not based in degradation. Whereas for women, what do you have? You have a pussy, you have like all these things where it's it's from a different perspective. It's from a perspective of subjugation of women. It's something where it's it's it's comes from a different perspective. And I think that's where a lot of this euphemistic succumbs from, because they're trying to not sound overly clinical, but there's not actually a lot of words in our language that are not that are not either clinical or tied to seeing women as pornographic items to be used. And we just we need to something between so what I want you Bare Marriage folks to do, comment what you think of all of us should be called. We'll do a poll
and we'll decide it once and for all. 

Sheila
But you know my plea to to especially male authors and
pastors and therapists, etc. is just to use the real words. 

Rebecca
Yes

Sheila
Like just use the real words.

Rebecca
Yes 

Sheila
It's way less creepy. It's empowering. 

Rebecca 
Yes 

Sheila
It treats women, especially with respect, like just use the real words. Okay, let's do the next category of euphemisms. So these are the ones that obscure
what is being asked to do. So kind of like that image thing that we were talking about, you know, his imperfect leadership. And then they show this beautiful this beautifully happy couple.

Rebecca
That could be a tampon commercial. 

Sheila
Right. It's like it's so weird. 

Rebecca
So woman and  running through field. 

Sheila
So the the phrases that are often used, especially towards women,
that really obscure what's going on or what is being asked. And the typical one is like give him a gift. 

Rebecca 
A gift. A gift. 

Sheila
Can we hear this all the time? Just give him a gift. You know, if you're not able
to have intercourse, then just give him a gift. And let me let me redo an example. This one doesn't actually say the words gift, but it's it's right up there. Yeah. Okay. This one is also by Kevin Lehman, same book sheet music. We are going to get to other people in a minute. There are times for whatever reason that a wife may choose to make use of what younger men affectionately referred to as hand jobs, a woman with heavy periods that last six or seven days, or who has just
gotten through a pregnancy, or perhaps is simply not feeling her best, may genuinely feel that sex is more than she can handle. But with a minimum of effort, she can tell she can help her husband, who feels like he's about ready to climb the walls because it's been so long.

Rebecca
The gift. No, okay. 

Sheila
There are so many things. 

Rebecca
We're not fighting because we could do a podcast on just this and we have before. And so I am, I am, I am not going to say all the easy low hanging
fruit here. We're going to say, okay, what are they talking about for her experience and for his?

Sheila
Okay. So the words they use for hers are if she has a period that lasts six to seven days, she has a heavy period. Now, most people, most women, when they are having heavy periods the last six or seven days, what is happening in her body? Okay. So she's bleeding profusely, right? She likely is having cramps. This is a woman who might be having endometriosis. She is a

Rebecca
PCOS. 

Sheila
Yeah. People who bleed heavily for a long times are not comfortable. Okay. They are not comfortable. And by the way, if you are having heavy periods that last six or seven days, that could be in the realm of normal. Okay. It could be, but it may not be. Yeah. It might be. This is a good idea to go see an OB get OBGYN and just get a workup done. All right. But like this is not someone who is comfortable. This certainly is likely not someone who feels sexual. Some women do feel really sexual during their periods for sure. But it's less likely to be women who are bleeding heavily. Well, and also here's the thing. We're using words. 

Rebecca 
Like, it's just, it's a heavy period of six, seven days. And so that's hard for her. But it's a minimum of effort. 

Sheila
Yes. 

Rebecca
That's a euphemism. Obviously, she's also postpartum in one of them, which,

Sheila
Yes, she's just had a baby. We don't know how long ago she had a baby. It says, you know, she has just gotten through a pregnancy, just gotten through a pregnancy.

Rebecca
She has just pushed a nine pound three ounce baby. She pushed a watermelon out of a lemon.

Sheila
She her body has been torn in half. She has stitches. She is still leaking bodily fluids profusely out of multiple places. Okay. So so she has, she's wearing a pad that is not a normal pad. It is like huge. Okay. She's passing blood clots, the size of tennis balls in some cases, or she,
her milk has come in and she's leaking through. She's got face clots in her bra. Okay.
Yeah. 

Rebecca
Or if she's passed that, she just went through that and now finally has a chance to rest.

Sheila
Yeah. She hasn't slept in months. Okay. Because she wasn't sleeping through the night before the baby was born either because she had to go to the bathroom constantly. Her baby is waking her up every three to four hours. She's exhausted. But this is just a minimum of effort. 

Rebecca
Yes. And this is the problem is they're using euphemistic languages. So they're not saying, um, women who are in pain, suffering, or in the, or freshly postpartum, um, should just ignore how their bodies feel and rub one out. 

Sheila
Yeah. 

Rebecca
That's what they're saying though and see how that sounds offensive. Yeah.
But not because the words rub one out. So I said, I don't know. Go have fun. Go rub one out if you want, like with your husband or whatever. I don't know. Some people would say that's only masturbation. I can assure you, um, having heard many teenagers say things that it is apparently not only for masturbation anymore. Um, but this is the thing is like, like it's, it's not that the word is
offensive. It's that when we use the words that actually mean what we're talking about in that context, it makes it clear what they're saying. It makes it clear what they're saying. And it's an offensive thing. Like say, like, well, it doesn't matter if you're bleeding and you're in pain. Take a couple of Advil and give them a hand job. Yeah. That is an offensive thing to say.

Sheila
It is.

Rebecca
And like a husband who would say that to his wife is a bad husband. Yes. Like flat out. And also I do want to say because we talked about this with the Gary Thomas photos thing a while ago. And if you haven't listened to that podcast, um, it's a great one. It talks about, um, why the way we talk about sexting needs to be done carefully is, um, you have to ask who is the person they're
talking to in this? And this is important and it's not directly related to you from business. But I always like to say it. People say, well, lots of women like to, you know, fool around when they're on their period, even if they can't really like do anything because they're bleeding too much,
they don't find it comfortable. Lots of women find it because they get really horny on their period. And like, okay, those women don't need to be convinced. 

Sheila
Yeah. 

Rebecca
Who needs this advice? Who needs to be convinced? This is not him saying you may have heard that the only forms of sex that are allowed are intercourse, but you should know that actually it's perfectly fine for Christians
to explore each other's bodies in all sorts of different ways you can do oral sex,
you can do manious stimulation. And if you're someone who when you're on your period, you get really sexually aroused and you want to do things, but you don't feel comfortable having intercourse. I mean, experiment. 

Sheila
Yeah. That's not totally different thing. Do you see how that's
a totally different thing? 

Rebecca
Yeah. That is completely different than saying to women, hey, when you're uncomfortable and bleeding heavily, you should be giving him a hand job. Yeah. 

Sheila
That's it. And here's the last thing he says, or simply not feeling her best. Yeah. What is that encompass? Anything.
Having a migraine, feeling nauseous in your first trimester. Yeah. So when you are not feeling well, you should give him a hand job. Really? Is that what we're saying? So when you've got a headache or you're nauseous, you should give him a hand job. 

Rebecca
It's just ridiculous. 

Sheila
Wow. Okay. But you see how if he had written that, it would have been caught by a lot more people. 

Rebecca
Yeah. If you're feeling,
if you have the flu, well, it's not that hard. Because the minimum effort, imagine it actually said this. Okay. So you have a cold. Don't be a wimp. It's not that hard to give him a hand job. Yeah. Like, oh my gosh, that would never have been written. But that is what this says. Yes. Let's be very clear. The motive of effort is don't be a wimp. Don't be lame. Don't be. It's downplaying what she has to do. Yeah. And so, and so whose needs are being prioritized here?

Sheila
So he's ready to climb the walls because it's been so long. She is bleeding heavily, is sick, is not feeling well, you know, is recovering, is exhausted. And yet who is the one who's supposed to put in effort? Not to mention he's climbing the walls for a woman whose period lasts six to seven days. It's like, ah, dude, just don't have sex for a week is fine. Yep. She doesn't get to have sex for a week either. Yeah. Yeah. When she's and she's bleeding heavily.
Like, I'm one of you has the worst end of this. 

Sheila
Yeah. Yeah. You know, but again, but but when we
word it like that, people don't realize, so here's another example. This one's from every man's battle, similar situation. Okay. When men aren't getting regular sexual release, their eyes are more difficult to control. Help him out in this battle. Give him release.

Rebecca
Yeah. 

Sheila 
How would you phrase that as to what he's actually saying?

Rebecca
It's like, I mean, if you don't, like how crass am I allowed to go? Because like, here's the thing, friends. Because here's the thing. I believe that the way that Steve Artebren and Fred Stoker talk about sex is in pornographic terms.

Sheila
Yeah. 

Rebecca
And so I do believe that the accurate way to describe what he's saying is in very
crass terms. Like, I believe that the way to describe what he is saying here is if you don't let him jizz in you, he's going to jizz to someone else. 

Sheila
Yeah. 

Rebecca
Like that is the way to describe it.
Yeah. It's like, it's, it's like he's, he's going to look somewhere else if you don't let him, you know, like that's, that's the way to, like

Sheila 
Because, because they only see sex as the husband's ejaculation. That's exactly it. It's not sex.

Rebecca
I don't want to say it intercourse. I don't want to say it's even intercourse. So it's not. It's like, she doesn't matter. It's just him jacking off inside of her. Yeah. That's all it is. It's him using her as a master potary aid. Yeah. Because he can't get what he really wants. Yeah. Because that's what they always imply in
every man's battle. And by the way, it's not true. Men don't really want the other hot women that they see. Like, that's not what they want. They want like, well, that's not true. Healthy men. Yes. Don't want just to get with the hottest girl that they can possibly beg. That's not what they want. They want a meaningful loving relationship with their wife. That's what they want. That's why they married you. Right. And so like, you don't have to believe this crap.
But that is what this says. This says you are the consolation methadone that soothes him from what he really wants, which is other women. 

Sheila 
And they actually use the word methadone too.
They actually use that in every man's battle. Yeah. So what what they're saying is, look, when when men aren't when men don't ejaculate often enough, they are going to lust and want to masturbate after other women. And so ladies, you need to make sure that you are letting him use your body or you are giving him a hand job or a blowjob so that he doesn't go in lust after other
women. And that's what they're saying. But if he had written it like that

Rebecca
I actually think that that would have still gotten published. And I don't know. Yeah, probably. That's why I think it needs to be crass language with these people. 

Sheila
Yeah, because I don't think that it with them in particular. 

Rebecca
With them in particular. Yeah, probably not for Kevin Lehman. 

Sheila
No, I think Kevin Lehman's readers would have caught it. I don't think that every man's battles readers go to college because they do pretty much say that. 

Rebecca
Yeah, they do pretty much say that. 

Sheila
But but that's why when when when
pastors and authors talking about, you know, you give him a sexual gift or you can give him a sexual favor. We say that a lot to write sexual favors when you can't when you can't have intercourse, you can give him a sexual favor. Look at the context of what where they are giving that advice.
Because like if the context is when she can't have intercourse because she's uncomfortable. And then she's supposed to give him a sexual favor, like, you know, manual stimulation, oral stimulation, oral sex, whatever. If they were to just say that outright, it would be obvious that the husband's being really selfish. 

Rebecca
Yeah. 

Sheila
But because they don't say it outright,
because they use words like a sexual favor and give him a gift, then it sounds like this is just a normal marital interaction where you just get to be a little bit more giving. And it's like, is it giving when you're telling her you don't matter sexually at all? Your body is just to be used for him to regulate him.

Rebecca
And again, we gave the example of how you can give people permission to do whatever they want in a way that isn't shaming or coercing people into it.
Okay. You want one from Shanti? Oh, yeah.
Okay. You want one from Shanti? So this one is for women only. Okay. She says, remember, if you do respond physically, but you do it just to meet his needs without getting engaged, you're not actually meeting his
needs. In fact, you might as well send him out to clip the hedges. So enjoy God's ultimate gift and make the most of it. She talks a lot like this. And we're going to come to another one later that she does. 

Rebecca
Such word salad. But like, so hard to follow. There's no specific verbiage that tells
you what she's trying to say. Yeah. Is meeting his needs responding physically?
Is that about like going, like, is that about having sex? Is it about being enthusiastic during sex? Is it? What does this mean? 

Sheila
Yeah, I don't, I don't even know. Is it about like, to me, if you
do respond physically, but it's like, it's like, it's your time of getting aroused? 

Rebecca
Because that's what I would think talking about like having an orgasm, but not putting on a show for him.

Sheila
I just, I honestly don't know. This could mean so many different things. It could mean like, if you respond physically, so if you, if you do have sex with him, it could mean if you do have an orgasm, but you're just doing it to meet his needs without getting engaged. 

Rebecca
So you're just lying in the hand job. It was about giving him a hand job. It's just like, well, I'll meet your needs. I'll respond physically. I'll give you all, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll give you a hand job.
That's fine. But like, it's going to be like, I'm doing a chore. And then she's like, well, you might as well be clipping the hedges. I'm like, well, I like, what does this mean? You have words. I am begging you. Do you have words that have meanings that are meant to communicate?

Sheila
Yeah.

Rebecca
 It's like there are actually ways you could have written this so that we knew what you were talking about. Yeah. But because of this, this could be from something as banal as like, I don't know, meeting his needs physically in terms of like, it could just be about meeting his non-sexual
affection needs. 

Sheila
Yeah. Like, I mean, it's just, it's just so crazy. I think the thing that bothers me
too about this is like the advice that's given. So if you can't, if you, if you can't actually get into it, like you're, then you're not actually meeting his needs, right? So instead, you are supposed to enjoy God's intimate gift and make the most of it. But she never tells you how to. She never tells you like, it's okay to tell him if you're not enjoying it. Instead, she says,
like, you have to, you have to reassure him all the time that you really want him and he's doing a good job. Like, she never says how to deal with the fact that you're not enjoying sex.

Rebecca
Like, to me, what this says is if you're doing this just to meet his needs and you don't enjoy it, that's not good enough for him. So put on a good enough act that he can't tell the difference.

Sheila
Yeah. 

Rebecca
Like, that's what this says to me. Well, it means she is telling you to enjoy it.
No, no, no, but she's not because she's threatening you that you're not meeting his needs. Right. Not that you should be enjoying it. She's getting in with her. So she, she's, she's doing the friend
of me thing where it's like, she's like, oh, nice skirt. When it's like, no one likes the skirt, right? Like, she's being a mean girl here. This is how mean girls talk, which is like, oh my gosh, no, you would never want to do that because it's fun anyway, right? Yeah. Like,
you're on, you're with the program, right? Like, this is how mean girls speak. Do I think it was intentional from her? No, I think that it's the culture she's raised and it's the water that she drinks and swims in, whatever. Like, but I think that is what's happening here. There is a threat here that you just responding physically. Just your, like, again, I don't know if this is her orgasm or like her giving him a gift or if it's anything like that, but I don't know what exactly it is,
but whatever it is, she's not enough. She has to put on a show. 

Sheila
Yeah.

Rebecca
Because if he thinks that she's not super into it, but 

Sheila
I guess what bothers me is you can't command someone to enjoy it. No.
Like, if they're not enjoying it, there's a reason and she never deals with that reason. She just commands you to enjoy it. 

Rebecca
And that's why I don't think she actually wants to enjoy it. She wants to
put on a show so that he can't tell. 

Sheila
Yeah, which is like, yeah, crazy. Okay. The king, however, we have not done the king of euphemisms. Yeah. King of euphemisms. The absolute king
of euphemisms is Josh Butler. 

Rebecca
Oh, yeah. Supreme king of euphemisms 

Sheila
When I asked, I asked a friend ruler of euphemisms. When I asked in our Patreom group, you know, what are euphemisms that I can use for this podcast?
I think it was Ilva who said, don't forget Josh Butler. He was like, oh my gosh, I almost did. We've done a whole podcast about him. 

Rebecca 
I've successfully blocked that chapter from my mind.

Sheila
So for those who don't remember, Josh Butler was a pastor who wrote a book called Beautiful Union. I think it was two years ago now. And it was put up by like the gospel coalition was heavily involved in marketing it. And they published the first chapter online. And it was so awful.
There was such a huge uproar about it. Conservatives, progressives, moderates. 

Rebecca
Everybody. Everyone came together to to to hate it to be mad at him calling the Holy Spirit semen by accident?

Sheila
Well, we don't even know. But here, I am going to read you this one part.

Rebecca
Okay. Awesome. 

Sheila
That just shows how euphemisms mean. We don't know what he's talking about or what he's asking us to do. All right. Christ penetrates his church with a generative seed of his word and the life-giving presence of the his spirit, which I have to do this again. Okay. Christ penetrates the church. Christ penetrates.

Rebecca
Christ penetrates is hard to get through 

Sheila
Christ penetrates his church with a generative seed of his word and the life-giving
presence of his spirit, which takes root within her and grows to bring new life into the world. Inversely, back in the wedding suite, the bride embraces her most intimate guest on the threshold of her dwelling place and welcomes him into the sanctuary of her very self. She gladly receives the warmth of his presence and accepts the sacrificial offering he bestows upon the altar within her most holy place. 

Rebecca
Oh, there's so many levels. There's so many levels. And we have
double before I open a link to the podcast where we talked about Josh Butler. Okay. First of all, his warm presence. 

Sheila
What is that? 

Rebecca
Is that the semen is that his penis inside of her? Is it him hugging her? What is it? 

Sheila 
I think it's I think it's his penis. 

Rebecca
No, it might be the semen. I think there's so much semen. It's got like the number of semen. Okay, let's do let's do a semen count here. Okay. Christ penetrates the generative seed. They've got the standard of his word. 

Shelia
Yeah, life giving presence. 

Rebecca
I think that's seamen even it too. 

Sheila
I think yeah, which takes root within her and grows to bring new life into the world. Yeah. 

Rebecca
Although was that technically if you were to
dissect the sentence, would that refer back to the life giving? I don't know. Okay. So we're two and a half. Okay. The bride embraces her most of her most intimate guests. So that's why I think that's penis. I think this is the most and I think that's yeah. 

Sheila
On the threshold of her dwelling
place, we don't know what dwelling place is. Is it her vulva? Her vulva? Maybe it's her vagina. Maybe I don't know. Maybe her cervix. And welcomes him into the sanctuary of her very self. 

Rebecca
I think that'sI think that's the vagina. Okay. She gladly received the warmth of his presence. That's gotta be seamen.

Sheila
She's already got the penis. She's already got the penis. And accepts the sacrificial offering. That's the semen. 

Rebecca 
We're at four and a half seamen.  He was stills upon the altar. Is that her cervix?

Sheila
I think so. Or her uterus? No, within her most holy place. That's gotta be the
cervix uterus. I don't know. But you see how this makes no sense. Like if you were to actually say what he's talking about, it would just be very different. 

Rebecca
And like I don't I'm not translating the Christ one because there's no way for me to say anything that does not sound just I respect, I have too much respect. 

Sheila
But but what what is the problem? What people really? Okay. So let's get
away from all of the semen and all of the weird things. Okay. What really stood out in this is that is the phrase the sacrificial offering he bestows so that somehow him ejaculating is a sacrificial offering. 

Rebecca
Yes. 

Sheila
And a lot of people had a lot of problems with that.
It's just that was that was one of the big things I wrote about it. 

Rebecca
It's comedy gold. It is. It's like in what universe is a man coming sacrifice. It's like you're welcome. No, like I did this for you. 

Sheila
Like I would like to read from Laura Robinson. Okay. Two years ago, Laura is great. I don't know if Laura's moved to threads. I miss Laura. I used to be on Twitter with Laura all the time. Laura is great. She has an amazing sub stack. But she wrote this and on Twitter. And I published it on my blog a couple years ago. But she said this about that passage. Okay. “The third image is honestly sort of shocking and how grotesque it is. Josh says that men display generosity during sex. They do this by generously giving their penis and their semen to women, which you may notice is a wild way of saying they have an orgasm.
Josh is working very hard to describe doing something extremely fun as though it is done for the sake of and on behalf of someone else. But it's about as coherent as Josh telling us that when his wife cooks him a delicious meal, he eats it and this is generosity. No, it's not. Josh isn't giving anything. He's receiving pleasure and enjoyment, but twisting around the words to make it sound generous. It's not generous. It's sort of the opposite. Like how patriarchal pastors say
men and women are equal, but they mean the opposite of equal. So the majority of what Josh has written here is just dumb and doesn't mean anything. The rest of it is twisty and manipulative. Men don't want to have orgasms. They give they want to give away semen. 

Rebecca
Men don't want to have orgasms. They want to give away semen is such a baller of a line. 

Sheila
Yes.

Rebecca
But it's true though, because like when you look at what he's describing, like what he could have just said, and this is the closest that I will get to giving him a lot of benefit of the doubt. Okay. He could have just said that like,
you know, as in the miracle and the mystery of reproduction, like there is this transformation and this growth that happens in us in secret, right? Like now with medical marvels, we can see it. But for centuries, like there is this this mysticism of the magic of growing a baby and Christ and the spirit, like they cause that growth to happen within us. Could have said that. I don't think
that's necessary in any context to use semen as an allegory for Christ. I don't think it's very necessary. I would argue because of that. And then in conversely, like an hour roll is to, nope, there's no way I'm trying. I'm trying to get to it. Really what he's saying is we need to allow for like, we like it's just it all it is is like just get ejaculated in. Yeah. And it's just that's all he's saying, but he used so many words and we still don't know what part of the body he's trying to refer to. 

Sheila
Yeah. So I have another one that touches on this as well. Okay. So we've talked
about euphemisms that are creepy, euphemisms that obscure what is actually being asked to do. So in this, in that case, he was like, you know, the generous offering, was really obscuring what's actually going on. And then there's euphemisms where we don't even know what's going on. Yes.
And a lot of that other. Also, that also qualifies. But here's another one by Josh that says this. Okay. At a deeper level, generosity is giving not just your resources, but your very self. And what deep form of self giving is there than sexual union where the husband pours out his very presence, not only upon, but within his wife. And I would just like to say, the upon thing is
doing a lot of work there. 

Rebecca
It really is. What are we pouring upon our life, Josh? 

Sheila
Yeah. Like, I just, I am very nervous. 

Rebecca
It's like, are we talking about like, like, because I think that one thing, what has happened here is he has a theoretical concept that he's trying to put in
poetic terms, but he has forgotten the 12 year old boy test, which is what this says is, I'm, I am, it can be cut out if it's too much. What he's saying is you can ejaculate on her and in her. 

Sheila
Yeah. 

Rebecca
Like, and it's like, that's not as poetic. 

Sheila
And I think a lot of women would have issue with the lot. 

Rbecca
Like, well, it's just like, it's just why. Like, my question is, who thought,
you know what we need more of in our allegories in the Holy Spirit? semen. That's what we need more of. We need more semen. We're so ejaculate. Like, where is it? Why are we having this in our theology books? Because, and if they were using the words, semen, this book would not have been written. 

Sheila
Yes. And people would have caught it faster. Like, because what is being said,
like his very presence, not only upon, but within his wife, like, what is that? And, and this is where, this is where like, it is so important to actually say what you're mean. Because,


Rebecca
Let's reread it with the actual words of what's being said here. Okay. At a deeper level, generosity is giving not just your resources, but your very self. And what
deeper form of self giving is there, then sex, where the husband ejaculates not only on his wife, but in his wife.

Sheila

How is that self giving? 

Rebecca
How is that self giving? Like, how is that? What honey? This one's for you.
Like, this is not going to only be on you tonight. It's also going to be in you. Like,
this is bizarre friends. That's what he says. He's saying not only upon, but within. It's like, yeah, I know that normally it's just on your stomach. But like, like, this is ridiculous. And if this had been written word at, like, this had actually been written out, of course, they would have caught it. These people are not dumb. They just got swept away in poetic word, and their poeticism, and then their desire to make something sound profound. And that's all it is. And that's why it's just important for us to put it through the 12 year old boy test and to put it through the real words test. 

Sheila
Yep. Yep. Exactly. Okay. I have another one
that isn't as this is again, this is Shanti Felden in a similar place to the book. Okay. So she, her big point in this chapter is that men don't just want sex. They want to feel desired. They want sex where you are engaged in it. Okay. That's her bigger point that men, men aren't actually only after ejaculation, they're after connection during sex. Okay. So I'm just going to read. Yeah. But once you realize that your man is actually saying, this is essential to my feeling
of being loved and desired by you and is critical to counteract my stress, my fears, and my loneliness. Well, that suddenly puts it in different category. So how might you respond? First, know that you're responding to a tender heart, hiding behind all that testosterone. If at all possible, respond to his advances with your full emotional involvement, knowing that you're touching his heart. But if responding physically seems out of the question, let your words be heart words,
reassuring, affirming, adoring, do everything in your power using words and actions your husband understands to keep those pangs of personal rejection from striking the man you love. Leave him in no doubt that you love to love him. 

Rebecca
Yes. 

Sheila
Now, this is where I have a real problem, because I don't know what she's talking about. Yeah. In a similar way to before. What does she mean by respond physically?

Rebecca
Because it sounds to me like she's saying, um, uh, well, I read that as
if you like, it's important that you put your all in and you're super into it. And if you can't orgasm, you'd better still like telling me he's doing a good job. That's what I think too. I think that's the easiest reading of that. 

Sheila
Yeah. And so, and so we made a big critiquer for book saying, she is saying that when you're in the middle of sex, if you're not, if you, if you aren't physically
responding during sex, or you're not getting aroused, that your words to still be reassuring, affirming, adoring, as opposed to saying a little to the left, like, as opposed to saying, Hey, this is what I need to feel good. You're supposed to be constantly reassuring him that he's a good
lover. And I think that's a valid reading of this passage, because throughout this chapter, she never once talks about how you're supposed to speak up and tell him, like, you know, and, and direct him. It's all about how you need to respond to him and make him feel like you love him and need him and desire him and enjoy it. Right. But I've had people say, well, I think what
she's actually saying is if you can't say yes to sex

Rebecca
But there's nothing in there that implies which one it is. Yeah. Like, and, and, and read is, I think that's also a valid reading. I don't know which one is correct. I don't know what she means, but that's part of the problem.

Sheila
Exactly. It's like, I don't know what she is saying. I don't know if she is saying,
if you can't say yes to sex tonight, you know, reassure him that you still want him and, and figure out why you can't say yes and, and you know, let's solve this. Or if she's saying, if you're having
sex and you're just not into it and you realize you're not going to reach orgasm tonight, you can still make him feel like you enjoy it and you reassure him. I don't know which, I don't know which it is.


Rebecca
It could have said, it's because what does respond physically means? That's a euphemism for something. But I don't know what it's for. I don't know what it's for. No, we don't.
Sheila
To me, like the way that we, because we talk about responding physically quite a bit. Well, I mean, in context, we usually say arousal. Yeah, but, but to me, that means arousal. Mm-hmm. Like, to me, your body, because we say your body physically responds. I say that a lot, your body physically
responds. 

Rebecca
Yes.

Sheoila
And so I'm thinking that means arousal. 

Rebecca
Yeah. And I think physically, also, like, why on earth would you need a euphemism for saying not now to not tonight? 

Sheila
Yeah, why can't you just
say? Why can't you just say if, you know, if you don't think that, or if you're not willing to have sex tonight or if you if this, if you realize

Rebecca
If you're not in the mood, not just a euphemism, but it actually is clear what you're talking about. Mm-hmm. Like, even just use not in the mood. Yeah. Like, but she doesn't. And so because of all these euphemisms, you're not actually sure what she's saying. 

Sheila
Like, I have no idea what she's saying there. 

Rebecca
I still think that it's it's it's mostly about I don't my question though is I just don't know if it matters to these authors. Yeah. Because it doesn't matter whatever it is, no matter what the end result has to be
that he gets his he he's told he's great. 

Rebecca
Yeah. Right. 

Sheila
But yeah, no, it’s bizarre, but it's like, just use words that communicate the message that you're trying to communicate. Yeah. And I just
find his sex people don't. And so it's not actually clear. And so how are you supposed to check that? Okay. So that's three that's three categories of euphemisms. Yes. All right. So creepy.

Rebecca
Creepy. 

Sheila
Don't know what's being asked. 

Rebecca
Don't know what's being said. 

Sheila 
And now we cover the fourth one, which is actually the most disturbing. 

Rebecca
Yeah. 

Sheila
Which is euphemisms that hide sexual assault. 

Rebecca
Yes.

Sheila
And we have a whole bunch of these from every man's battle. Yes. So one thing to know about every man's battle is that nowhere in their books do they actually talk about sexual assault victims. Like they don't call anyone a victim. 

Rebecca
No. 

Sheila
Like it's the victim of lust is always the man's own purity. It isn't a woman that is hurt. And so I want to give a couple of examples of that. Okay.
So this one is from every young man's battle. So this is actually from his book to teenage boys. And this is another reason why you should never ever ever let your Christian school because it's often Christian schools read this with your sons. Okay. We have a one sheet on the problem with every young man's battle. Actually, I have a one sheet on for women only as well. So I'll put
the link to those in the podcast notes, but very, very bad one. And we did a podcast in every young man's battle. But let me read you this this snippet. So a teenage girl is saying, guys, you need to let them know that you care more about their heart than the way they address. Cassie simply stated, please be a leader. Yet too often the only leadership that we take, meaning guys, is to is to charge across her sexual boundaries. Girls want guys to take the lead in
the relationship said Cassie, yet often it's the guys who are pushing the boundaries. When that has happened to me, I felt very resentful. I know what that it makes girls just feel used. We neither feel validated in who we are, nor in what we stand for as women. I remember the time when a guy I
really liked tried some things that made me uncomfortable. I asked him to stop, but he persisted. Finally, he just wore me down and I eventually gave in. He had weakened my defenses. Understand what's being said here. There's nothing manly about pushing past your girlfriend's sexual boundaries,
especially when they're pain or their desire for acceptance weakens their defenses. Besides, sex isn't so much a physical act as it is an emotional act for women. Very different from the male perspective. Yeah, Becca, what is it called? Yeah, when a girl says no, and he persists, and then he wears her down and she gives in. Is there a word for that, Rebecca? 

Rebecca
It's definitely not just wanting to be liked. He says right after that, where she says their pain or their desire for acceptance weakens their defenses. No, he weakened her defenses, his persistence and his sexual assault. Like, yeah, that is sexual that is textbook definition of date rape. 

Sheila
Yeah, it is.
That is a textbook definition of date rape. 

Rebecca
Yep. And they don't even call it that.  No, like
pushing past someone's sexual boundaries. When they repeatedly said no to. 
Like, in this case, it's like, finally, he just wore me down. It's like, oh my goodness. 

Sheila
And this is why girls blame
themselves for dating. This is why girls don't recognize date rape. And that's one of the things we talked about in the podcast, I think back in September, was that girls who grew up in purity culture, reading crap like this, don't recognize date rape. Because what are they being told? My defenses were weakened. And so finally, I gave in, giving in after you have consistently said, no, is not you giving in. It's you realizing your no means nothing. And so you stop saying no. Yeah.
And he just goes ahead. And that is date rape. That that that is sexual assault. And they don't even name it. Like, they don't even name it. They are talking to I'm sorry, I'm so angry right now. But they are talking to teenage boys. They are describing a date rape situation. And they don't even name it. Shame on you. Well, not only that. 

Sheila
Shame on you, Steve Arterburn and Fred Stoker.
Like seriously, do you know what is going to happen when you stand before Jesus?

Rebecca
Well, not only that, they're pretty much giving teenage boys the play by play on how to do it.
Yeah. Like they say, look, like when they have pain or their desire for acceptance, weak as their defenses, it's kind of like, Hey, here's who you can look out for. And here's how this guy did it. Like there is a level where it's like this, like it does feel very much like they're just kind of giving guys all the information on like what to do. Yeah, like it's very it's just a problem. Yeah. 

Sheila
So it's awful. And there's multiple examples of this in every young man's battle.
I'm giving you one. There are so many. This is not a book that should ever be used. It was it of all the books I have ever read on sex. It was the worst. It was the one that made me put me in a funk for women. I would say lies when we believed it that to me. But this this really put me in a funk. Okay, we're going to listen to Fred Stoker, who's one of the co authors of every young man's
battle. In a clip, we've played this before, but we'll do it again. In a clip with Focus on the family. Okay. So here we go. 

Fred Stoker 
Our sexuality, our native language of passing intimacy with a girl
is pretty sexual. Okay. So what happens is is that when we're with a girl, the natural way we're going to want to express that is sexually. Okay. Now we know we can't do that biblically, but we tend to want to express it that way. But the biggest problem is not how much we're pushing on the boundaries of our girlfriends. The biggest problem that that creates in our lives
is this that we can look at a naked picture of a girl. It's just a picture. Okay. But when we enter into self gratification as we view that and we have this big burst of pleasure chemicals into the brain, that gives us this really medicated feeling. And even though that's not genuine intimacy, because it's just a girl on a page, it has this sense of intimacy in us because of the way our sexuality is built. 

Sheila 
And so what are you saying is the biggest problem is not pushing on the boundaries of your girlfriend? Again, Becca, what is it called when you push on the barriers of your girlfriend assault? The biggest problem that that it creates in our lives is that we can look at a picture of a naked girl. And we can consume that picture and get addicted to that sort of behavior. 

Rebecca
Well, not only that, they're talking about our natural way, right? They talk
about this natural way of passing into messy and that is sexual. And it's like, what do you mean? Yeah. What do you mean? It's like, this is not normal for one, but they're using the kind of language that normalizes this behavior. Like, if he said, you know, when you're with a woman, you just want to bang her. And so you're going to do whatever it takes to bang her. Because that's just natural. It's natural for men who want to bang women and to push as hard as you can. And you
know, we're going to disrespect those boundaries. You're going to plow right through them. I'm just going to rape her if she doesn't, if she doesn't want to do it, because that's just natural. That's how I experience intimacy. That's not as bad as porn. Like, if you just said that, I think focus on really what it kicked him off. Yeah. But they don't even though he's saying the same thing.

Sheila
Yeah. 

Rebecca
He's saying the same thing. He's just using euphemistic language. And that's what we're really trying to talk about today is like, this language gets you past people's defenses. And if you actually describe what they're saying, they wouldn't have gotten away with it. So we need to stop being stupid. And we need to start actually looking at the message behind what they're saying. This man says, yeah, I mean, like, I want to rape lots of women. That's how I experience love. I want
because I'm like pushing on boundaries going past what people want. Yeah, I feel intimate when I rape women. But you know what, I'd rather do that than watch porn. Yeah. Like, oh my God. Like, how did we get here? 

Sheila
Yeah. And remember, this man is supposed to be an expert on how to get
over porn. 

Rebecca
And again, I think that some of the times the way that we talk about things, we also desensitize ourselves to how we're talking about it. Like, I do, I don't know how much Fred Stoker is aware of what he is saying here. Yeah. I think there is a level of cultural conditioning and cultural scripts that everyone just kind of continues to go. I think from reading the Every man's battle thing, I think that even if he's not conscious, I would struggle if there wasn't a subconscious. But I do think that like, I don't, I don't think that it's all social scripts considering they built the social scripts. But I do think that there's a level where it helps us also realize when we're just parroting what we've heard in our environment to put it into real
world terms. Yeah. Real world terms. It helps us to kind of catch ourselves like, wait, do I actually believe this? Or am I just parroting it? Right? Like, we talked about this in the modesty
message. You'll have a church where two men will say, I am concerned that Clara is so comfortable coming to church wearing that. And one of them means, does she have parents that care about her because like, that's a red flag that a 12 year old is trying to dress like a Kardashian-Instagram model. And the other one means, I am distracted by Clara's boobs personally. And those are two different men, but they use the same words. Yeah. And so use the actual words that you
mean. Because it makes a big difference. 

Sheila 
Yep. Yep. Okay. Last one. Okay. We're going to listen to
Josh Howerton. Yeah. Okay. Here we go. 

Josh Howerton
To fight. This is really interesting. The book of Ephesians
says to you men that if you, if the devil literally physically appears to you, it says,
what you need to do is stand firm against the fiery darts of the evil one. But then the same book says to flee sexual immorality. Do you know what that means? If you go out of one of our campuses, get to your car and the literal physical devil, horns and tail and fang, all standing right there, you need to stand up and bow up and the Bible's going, hey, fight. But if you go out there and it's like some shady little girl in a mini skirt, Forest. Run. You are no match for this enemy.

Sheila
So for those who don't know, Josh Howerton is a mega church pastor in the Dallas area. He's with the SBC. And we've had lots of interactions back and forth. But this one in particular really made me mad because what is he saying, Rebecca? 

Rebecca
What isn't he saying? Okay. So shady little girl in a mini skirt in. So when you get out of church today, and there's a shady little girl in a mini skirt, run in the church park. So so so you'll have an elder getting out of the church
and he's going to see a shady little girl in a minute. Now, what is a shady little girl in a mini skirt? Yeah, because does he mean a full grown woman who's just he's just being patronizing to? Yeah. Does he mean? 

Sheila
And I have had some people from Texas say that's the way that that that
Texas the Texans talk about women as they call them little girls. 

Rebecca
Stop. That's not okay though. Stop.

Sheila
Because because by doing that, you are saying that women are just children. 

Rebecca
Well, no, even if you're not doing that, even if you're just being cutesy about it, it's it's icky, it's weird and it's gross. And like, it's like, if it's Texan culture, you can lose that one, friends. Yeah, you can. You can. You can lose that one, especially since the internet exists beyond Texas, actually. And so if you're calling a grown woman, we say, Oh, I saw the prettiest little girl the other day. And you're a 35 year old man. That is going to go badly on the internet. 

Sheila
Yes. 

Rbecca
No, but but seriously, like this, he could mean that it's just a woman who it knows that she's dressing provocatively and she's actively been trying to tempt this man. Right. And it is in the church parking lot. In the church parking lot. She's like, Oh, we're going to get Randy on the asphalt. Yeah. Like there is there are plans that have been laid by this 35 year old consenting woman.

Sheila
Right. But that is not the words that we're saying. But that's what he said. He said, Shady little girl, a little girl to me, a teenager or even younger. Like I'm thinking, I'm thinking 1213. 

Rebecca
Yeah, that's what the girl colloquially is not a 16 year old. No young lady
is a 16 year old. Yeah, little girl is a teen girl with be a 16 year old, but little girl is young. Yeah, like little girls 11- 12. So you have a shady little girl. 

Sheila
So first of all, can a 12 or 13
year old be shady? I don't think so. No, I don't think a 12 or 13 year old can be shady.

Rebecca
No, they can be struggling. They can be very visibly from a home that is clearly not looking out for them because of how they are presenting themselves in public. And I'm sorry, that is a thing that you can notice. Absolutely. Yes. But then your reaction should be to help that little girl, not to accuse her of being shady.

Sheila
So he's saying he's a shady little girl in a mini skirt. And that because and because she is in a mini skirt and because she is shady, this 12 or 13 year old girl is more dangerous to this man than the literal devil. 

Rebecca
Then Satan. 

Sheila
Yeah. Then Satan. So this 12 year old girl is more dangerous. Now,
here's where the euphemism stuff comes in. Okay. What danger does she pose? 

Rebecca
Yep

Sheila
What is about to happen? That is so dangerous. 

Rebecca
Yeah 

Sheila 
And I can think of three possibilities. Mm hmm. Okay. Of the danger that she poses. Yeah. Okay. One is that he may lust after her. Yeah. All right.
So so he may take a mental picture in his mind and play it over and over again.

Rebecca
In which case, did she do that to him or did he do that to her? 

Sheila
Yes. Exactly. Who is being victimized here? The other one is that she could actually want to have sex with him and she could try to seduce him. However, if she is 12 or 13, it does not matter, 

Rebeccea
But not regardless of what age she is, even like even if it wasn't a crime, even if we're back to the 35 year old woman. Okay. Back to the 35 year woman. Oh, no, a woman wants to have sex with you. Say no. Yeah. Like, why is that dangerous more dangerous than the literal? How is that more dangerous than the devil? Like, are you that weak? Like seriously, like, Mia, like, I'm sorry. Like, Aeregon says no to Ewyon or instead, 

Sheila
That would have been great for our Friday round up. It would have been
it's in their Friday roundups. We always have a Lord of the Rings reference. Yes. Yeah. Okay. So those
are videos that we do on Friday. 

Who could say no to Ewyon like if Aeregon or I'm gonna say no to a
I mean, God darn, no 35 year old woman and like, and like, like, again, I'm just emphasizing we're not talking about a child here. Yes. Okay. Like if if  Aeregorn can say no to Ewyon you can say no to the consenting woman in the church park. But the other option and again, 

Sheila
I'm still thinking she's 12 or 13. 

Rebecca
I agree. He's talking about like a teenager. Yeah. Is that he's sexually
assaulted when she doesn't want to. Yes. And remember that either way, whether she appears to consent or not, it is statutory rate. Right. Yeah. So so children are not your wife. 

Sheila
What he's saying is that you need to flee because you will likely rape her. Right. He's saying that men in my church, you men in Lake Point Church. If there were a 12 or 13 year old girl in a mini-skirt in the parking lot, you should run away because the most likely scenario is that you're going to rape her. Yeah. That's what he's saying people. 

Rebecca
Yeah. Okay. And again, if you're
like, Oh, but he didn't mean 12 year old, then don't say little girl. Oh, he's Texan. Stop being creepy in a saying that it's because you're Texan. Like, I am so sorry. 

Sheila
Like, do you know what impression we're getting of Texas when all the Texans say that's just how we talk? It's like,

Rebecca
Oh, that's so icky. 

Sheila
Yeah. But like, like, and I've been to Texas. I, one of my greatest experiences
in the church was in Texas. Yes. 

Rebecca
But nothing wrong with Texas. But there is something wrong with a
blank statement calling females little girls. Because then again, when do we know if someone is talking about a child or an adult? 

Sheila
Yeah. Yeah. 

Rebecca
And so you're listening to that and you might say, Oh, you're overreacting. Okay. But what about the man who is sexually attracted to the 14 year
old in the congregation? What about the man who is actively fighting temptation to try something with the 15 year old that he's volunteering at her youth group? Yeah. Like, what about those men
who are now in the congregation who are hearing Pastor Josh say that and they're like, Yes, exactly. This is how I feel. We need to use clear language so that it is clear what we are saying so that we don't accidentally become a place that enables predation. We found that in churches where modesty messages are taught. The sexual assault rate is higher in those churches from people who are at the church. Okay. It grooms people and it also attracts the kinds of people
who would do those things because you have this external locus of control where it's like, my sexual predation is because of what a girl chose to wear. Yeah. And that is what Josh is doing here. He's he's he's giving pedophiles an out. I do not believe that was his intention. 

Sheila
No,

Rebecca
But he has a responsibility as a pastor to be clear, especially around issues like sex because so much of sex in this world is rape. 

Sheila
Yep. And and and I just want people to understand that he
like he thinks he's making a joke. He thinks he's making this profound theological point in this in this in this little snippet here. And and he's trying to make it funny. But what he's really saying to the men of like point is 13 12 13 year old girls are so dangerous that you would rape them if you didn't run away. And if that's honestly what LakePointe like well, it's good to know at least
he's admitting it. Exactly. And like quite frankly, if you are raising your kids in that environment,
if you if you're still goes to LakePoint 

Rebecca AD
You know, it doesn't sound fun to a lot of parents.
What telling their kids about sex? I mean, I know it wasn't fun for you when I was growing up

Sheila AD
I did a terrible job. 

Rebecca AD 
You did a terrible job. But the good news for you all is that she did
do a terrible job. And so that made us want to do a better job for the next generation. So together, we have created a course called the whole story, which is a course that walks you as the parents through having these talks with your kids, both boys and girls. And we've created two different versions for each gender, a young and an older version. So the younger version is that that
really awkward age, you know, the one where you're in puberty in the middle of junior high. 

Sheila AD 
Yeah,
you're starting to get your period, you need a bra or you're starting your boys starting to have wet dreams. 

Rebecca AD And then the older one we put in because often what happens is we have these conversations once and then we don't have them again. So we also created a program for you when your kids are more in high school where you can have the nitty gritty conversations get into those
difficult topics and really connect so that's not just giving them a book and hoping that they understand, but you're having the ability to shepherd them in this stage of their life. The videos are recorded by me and my sister for the girls and by my husband Connor and a man named Daniel Barrows, who is a Christian medical student for the boys. 

Sheila AD 
And you can find the link to the whole story and the podcast notes below. You don't need to be scared. We're here to help.
Yeah. 

Rebecca
What's so hard about this job is that you see so much and so you stop understanding why people still go to those places because it's like at this point there's so much evidence. How much more evidence do you need? Yeah. Like before you're going to take your child out of that environment, like how much how many more children need to be assaulted in those churches? How much
more toxic teachings do you need to hear? Like at some point there's been so many studies that show that there are churches that aren't like this and then there are churches that are like this and and like and I'm being vulnerable and honest here. Like I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but like it does come down to how many more kids need to be raped. Like the SBC is is poison and unless your pastor's and people who's actively trying to change the culture, like how much more abuse is necessary for you to see. Yeah. And that's a question I think a lot
of people need to sit with where it's like how far is too far? How many children is too many children? How many women is too many women? Because we have definitively shown and it's not just us it's so many researchers at this point have definitively shown that there is it is toxic to talk about women in this way. It is toxic talk about girls in this way. It is toxic talk about sex in this way and when you do surprise surprise predators really like your church. And do you really want to be raising your kids in an environment that is actively catering? 

Sheila
And not and it's not just the predators like your church. It's that the boys in your church
are more likely to become predators. Yes. 

Rebecca
So including your sons and that's a hard thing to talk about.
So at both the tracks predators and groom's predators. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We found that boy like when girls who were in churches that preached modesty messages were more likely to have experienced sexual assault from a another child. Yeah. From a peer and from an adult and from an adult in their church. Then kids who grew up in church that didn't preach this. And so you need
to be thinking about what messages your boys are being given. I know a lot of people listen to our podcast and they talk about how do I raise healthy boys and then they also say the only church that's good in our area is the megachurch that's SBC. And I'm like, then you if you are if your boys are in a church that is teaching them subliminally that what girls wear and what they do is partially
responsible for whether or not he rapes her. I'm so sorry but you are raising children with a higher likelihood of becoming predators. And that's the thing that none of us want to talk about. I have a boy myself. These are questions that I ask myself. I look at the studies and I for both of my kids I'm like, how can I raise resiliency and equality as a part of who you are. And these are the questions that we need to be asking as mothers and fathers. And that I feel are
jumped over far too much. But this kind of language where it's not clear what people are saying leads to messages that our children are getting that become foundational to their view of sex, to their view of gender, to their view of how they treat the opposite sex or how they expect to be treated by the opposite sex. And I would be very, very careful before you just brush it off as, well I'm teaching them the good stuff so it won't stick. Because you never know.


Sheila
That's not what we found. 

Rebecca
You're going to have a lot of kids like me where nothing sticks to me. Like I'm sorry, I am just who I am. And I was raised in all these circles and it didn't stick. But that's much more an area of personality as much as you guys did a great job. You did great. But it was much more personality based than anything else. And I just want parents to be very careful. And I know it's kind of a sobering note to end on. But I think it's when we don't talk about enough, which is you might think that the only good church in the area is the giant evangelical mega church.
But what's your metric of good? Because if your metric of good is it raises more predators. Yeah, just I just don't think that can, let's change our metric.
Let's change our metric.

Sheila
There are good churches out there that don't preach this. And I just want to say too about this one clip. You know, again, let's get back to what he's saying is that the girl in the miniskirt is the enemy. Yeah, not the man who's going to rape her. Yeah. And I think that's a pretty bold statement that he's making with his full chest there.

Rebcca
And it explains and it explains our findings. Yeah, it does. Yeah, it really does. Okay. 

Sheila
So our plea is well, first of all, obviously our plea is to pastors and authors to not use euphemisms. But that's not you know what that's not going to happen. So here's our second plea. Is that you, when you are reading books, when you are listening to pastors, think past the words they're saying and actually picture what they are saying. You know, ask yourself, what is it that they are actually telling me to do in what context? What is it that they are actually explaining and picture it? And when you do that, it becomes much more clear where they're coming from or what they're saying. And then we're more readily able to reject stuff. 

Rebecca
And I also want to be clear, this is something you should doing not just in
books that are that you think might be bad. This is something for good books. This is a protective literacy exercise for all books. There are lots of books. We talk about this all the time. They have blood thinners and blood plotters in research. We have advice in books that we have very clearly laid out. This is not for people in examples A, B, or C. And so this is also a thing that you should do no matter what because you should be asking, am I the intended audience? What is the
advice that's actually being given here? How does it supply in certain contexts? Because that, first of all, it helps the authors that are trying to do this responsibly where they are using proper words and they're trying to make it clear which group each advice is for. And it also helps you be protected against authors who are not doing this responsibly and who are giving weird poetic semen imagery to everyone. 

Sheila
Yes. So thank you for or I hope you appreciated our generosity in pouring out our. 

Rebecca
I can't. I can't. 

Sheila
We can't do it. Thank you for joining us on the BareMarriage Podcast. 

Rebecca
There's been too much semen already in this one.

Sheila
Do check out the new video study for the marriage you want that launched a few weeks ago. It is a wonderful book that talks about how you can get a healthy marriage and we have it available as a small group curriculum now, as premarital curriculum, as couple study guides, as everything. It's everything that you could want in a marriage book for every purpose and it's not going to point
you to abuse. It's going to put you to health. So check it out. Link is in the podcast notes and thank you for joining us. We'll see you next time on Bare Marriage. Bye 

Rebecca
Bye