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Episode 304: Francine Rivers' And the Shofar Blew Part 2: What Can We Learn from Christian Fiction?

• Sheila Gregoire • Season 9 • Episode 304

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We're diving into part two of our discussion on Francine Rivers' "And the Shofar Blew.” While Christian fiction can be inspirational, this novel reinforces dangerous theology about marriage, telling abuse victims to stay and suffer "better," portraying women who report pastoral abuse as liars, and presenting an incredibly sexist view of women's roles in the church as normal and godly. Join me and my friends Merry, Sarah, and Joanna as we unpack why books like these—even though they're just fiction—profoundly shape how Christian women understand marriage, faith, and their own worth.

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Sheila
Christian fiction can be awesome. It can be inspirational. It can help us grow with Jesus. But what does it do to our theology of marriage? And can it be something which actually reinforces some of the bad stuff that we've been hearing from other books?

That's what we're gonna be talking about today in part two of our look at  'And The Shofar Blew' by Francine Rivers. Hi, I'm Sheila Gregoire from Baremarriage.com, where we like to talk about healthy, evidence based, biblical advice for your sex life and your marriage. And while we normally look at self-help books, what I decided to do last week was to start a discussion on Christian fiction, looking specifically at a book that I read about 20 years ago that just rubbed me totally the wrong way, even though I liked other books by this author, because I felt that the overall message that it was giving about marriage and even about faith could actually end up hurting people when they read it, because that wasn't the message that we should be taking away. So I grabbed a bunch of women, a bunch of my friends to talk about this, and we started last week, and I would like to invite you to the second part of that conversation.

Merry
The advice that she gives to Sheila. Sheila the, the brazen hussy,

Sheila
Jezebel hussy yep

Sarah
Jezebel is not our Sheila. The other Sheila No, no, it's caricature Sheila,

Sheila
Yeah. Although we do have Jezebel merch in our store, which I think if you ever been called Jezebel.

All
Oh, oh and okay

Merry
So the advice that she gives to Sheila, the Jezebel's husband, is stay with her. You chose her even though he's got plenty of evidence that not only is she cheating on him, but she has done it repeatedly and she's manipulative and.

Sarah
But hasn't she embezzled millions of dollars. Wasn't there.

Merry
No, Ahh, 

Sheila
There was someone. One of the, one of the elders.

Joanna
Martin

Sarah
Martin, oh Yes. Yeah. Okay. My bad. I don't know this. Sheila. I was figuring that Sheila was the one involved in the money disappearing.

Merry
No no, that was somebody else. Okay. And he's a rich guy and he loves his first wife. He really regrets it. And Eunice was basically. Well, you chose Sheila, so you need to stay with her.

Sarah
You make your bed, now lie in it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Merry
Yes. Oh, gosh.

Sheila
Okay. I want to read to you, like, just this is what I mean, by the sexism. That is just inherent in the book that is not critiqued but is instead treated as normal. So these are just two little incidents, okay? And you need to think of these as, as, they're supposed to be funny. So this is Samuel and his wife Abby, and they're the older couple that is the paragon of virtue.

Okay. "Samuel cleared his throat. Abby closed her parted lips and said no more. Amused, Stephen drew a chair from one of the rows and sat with them. He looked between the two elderly people. I've never seen that happen before. What? Samuel said bemused. A man able to silence a woman without saying a word, Abby slapped his knee. You do well to take a few lessons from my husband. Instead of trying to stir up mischief." 

So it's like Samuel clears his throat and Abby stops talking. And this is, this is portrayed. This, isn't this cute, right?

Merry
I know, I know, that's another one of those moments that made me want to wring their necks.

Yeah. And again, this is supposed to be sweet and normal as well. 

"Abby took her apron from the drawer and tied a bow behind her back. Why don't you gentlemen go out on the patio and enjoy the last bit of sunshine while I clean up the kitchen? It's hot enough in here without you two adding your steam"

So it's like when two people, when the men are supposed to go off and talk about God things, and the women are supposed to facilitate them doing that. So the women are always going to be serving in the background, while the men just get to benefit from the women's work without having to do it. And yet the men are the ones who are seen as taking care of the church.


Sheila
Hey there! Have you ever been challenged when you bring up some of the stuff we share on this podcast about how, hey, there's no need to be so angry men and women are equal now, and you know that's not right, but you don't know what to say. Well, thank you to the sponsor of today's podcast, Zondervan Publishers, for publishing an amazing book that can give you the words and connect the dots for you.

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You will love it just as much as I did.

Sheila
Another thing, when they're talking about what deacons to get for the church, someone makes the comment.

It would be an added bonus if the men organized and taught adult Sunday School classes, and their wives taught the children, right, so women can't even teach Sunday school classes. And none of this is critiqued. Like, this is what I mean. It would be one thing if the plotline of the book was like this. Underlying sexism is what contributed to all of these problems, but that's not the plotline of the book.

The plotline of the book is all of this is how churches are and isn't this lovely?

Sarah
Or even if that's shorthand between Samuel and Abby where they've been married and together so long, let's just say if it was presented as they are such a powerful team together because they can read each other, and when one of them has a caution about something, if they can just meet eyes across the room or one of them clears their voice and it goes both ways, and the other one is like, I respect that they may be aware of something I don't I'm not aware of, and I'm just going to I'm going to hold back.

Like if it was that they are so in tune with each other that they can communicate without words, that they can, that they are on each other's team and backing each other up both directions instead of, oh, tell me how to silence a woman without speaking a word. In what if Stephen's perspective was, you know, my wife and I had so much conflict.

How did the two of you work so intuitively together as a team? How me? Oh, you've been so successful in a deeply connected, intimate relationship. But that would be beautiful. But it's just one dimensional. Oh you can get her to shut up without saying anything. Teach me your ways Jedi. Yeah. And she's the one promoting it. You should take lessons from my husband on how to silence a woman.

Merry
Yeah, yeah.

Sarah
Yeah. And that internalized misogyny is where, like, you know, it's most effective if women are telling other women how to shut up and sit in their place. 

Sheila
Yeah And again, this is coming from the two people who are the most righteous in the book. Right? Abby and Samuel are the epic of epic, of everything Jesus. And so and that's what I mean by the fact that Francine Rivers isn't critiquing this, because throughout the book, she's portraying them as, as the sort of the perfect couple, that everybody goes to for advice and that most represent Jesus.

And so it's just. Yeah, it's just odd.

Merry
Yeah. It is is difficult to read constantly throughout the book and like I said, it's a worldview. And the thing that is sad for me is that I believed that worldview for so long, and it took me a while to get out from that type of worldview. And yet it's still like, like you said, that internal misogyny is so real and how often I have to, like, watch.

And then if I do speak up, then I'm going, oh, I'm being too loud, I'm being aggressive, I'm creating conflict. And there's this internal negative dialog that goes on in my head when no, actually, I disagree with you, and I think that that's not a godly thing to be doing or saying. And it's, it's, it's a conscious decision.

I have to push myself to do that because it's been so internalized for so many years. I've gotten better, but it's still, the number of times I've fallen silent when I should be, shouldn't, Yeah. The thing that was interesting, too, is this godly paragon of virtue. Samuel. He kept silent throughout the whole thing. He knew what was going on in some, spirit driven way. And all it was, was just praying and waiting on the Lord. And so that was so that's godly leadership. Wonderful.

Sheila
Yeah. And that's and that's the thing. Okay. Because like, we can read all these Christian marriage books and we can read people saying, you know, like Emerson, I that that your quietness speaks volumes and your silence is what he wants. And all that. And we can see how ridiculous that is, right? Like on its face. But when you read a book like this and, you know, books like this, they make you, they make you long to have a faith that is so beautiful, right?

I mean, and we can, we're critiquing it, obviously, but the, the takeaway when you read something like this is, oh, isn't it lovely how, how people can put Jesus so center in? Isn't it amazing how people can just live out their faith and it makes you feel good, right? But the faith that she is portraying is one where women do not have a voice in anything.

Only with children and singing and cooking, you know, where women are supposed to be silenced and sidelined and women are supposed to enjoy being silenced and sidelined like the women realize. My role is to cook things and go visit the elderly. And that's wonderful. I don't think there's anything wrong with going and visiting the elderly, but that, that, that is all that it is.

And all of the important stuff is done by the menfolk. And that's just never critiqued. And so you can read a book like this and now this faith that you are so emotionally invested in that you feel so good about. Because that's what books like this do, is they make you feel like, oh, this is, you know, oh, isn't it lovely to have a strong faith, right?

This faith has now been painted as something which is really terribly sexist, and I don't. And that has a profound impact, I think, and how in, how the church is presented in so many fiction books.

Merry
It reinforces the passivity for women because we don't have an active role in leadership or in speaking up. But even the way that, that, Eunice's faith is portrayed is also passive and that, that, that theology that all things work out for the good of those who love the Lord. Romans 8:28. It's being used as a way to, minimize, the messiness of human life and pain and all the crap we go through, and somehow it'll be fine, because God's going to use it for good.

So it doesn't give us permission to deeply, Grieve.

To be so angry and furious, and to just recognize the enormity of the pain that we experience as humans. And so, in contrast with Jesus coming, having gone through the worst of experiences, experience deep emotions at all levels. But it's not what we're being taught in a lot of evangelical churches, which is it's all nice, neat and tidy because God's got it.

He's sovereign and giving your work out for good. So there's passivity isn't just from the sexism, but is is actually how we're taught. We're supposed to live out our faith. 

Sarah
That's deeply theological. Pray. 

Merry
Yeah. And do nothing and wait on God.

Sheila
Okay, I want to jump into theological. I've just looked at my notes and I've realized I've forgotten something super important. Okay, so I want to read this passage. So this is going back to marriage. We don't have to comment on it a lot. I just want to be, I just want people to know this is in there.

Okay? So this is, I don't know, maybe ten years into their marriage and they're having a fight, and Paul and Eunice and I just want to read this episode. "Eunice was so angry. She was shaking. She knew exactly what would happen if he went through with this. If you leave tomorrow morning, your father is going to say you tuck tail and ran. He turned so sharply she didn't know what he meant to do. She fell back, more in shock than from the slap across her face. She put her hand over her stinging cheek and stared up at him, horrified, when he took a step toward her. She stepped back. Eunie, he said, his face ashen. His heart was thundering. Sometimes I wonder if I know you at all. I'm sorry, he said hoarsely, and he sat on the bed, his shoulders hunched and wept". 

And then it goes on. like he's actually hitting her. Never point, I guess.

Sarah
Like Never identified as criminal assault.

Sheila
Yeah, it's never addressed again. It's just she forgives him and she keeps praying for herself to change. And so yeah, they actually have.

Merry
Them and what is this about?  “I don't even know you at all.” It's like almost this indirect way of blaming her that he lost control.

Sheila
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's like it's just, it's thrown in there. And then they never. Francine Rivers never talks about it again. Like he hit her across the face like a slap across the face. Like really? Okay. Yeah. Anyway,

Joanna
Can we briefly talk about Mabel as well? Okay. Mabel.

Sheila
I loved Mabel.

Joanna
I Loved and also was so, so was the only character.

Sheila
Did we never meet her?

Joanna
No. She's completely silent. We hear at the beginning her husband's talking about how she's on oxygen so she can't use. Yes, the, the gas.

Sheila
So I'm thinking of a different one. I'm not thinking.

Joanna
No. Yeah.

Sheila
I'm thinking of. I'm thinking of, the first wife also begins M, but never mind.

Joanna
Oh, no. Molly. Yes. Molly? Yes. Justice for Molly. Yes. No. So Mabel is a woman. She has, needs to be on oxygen. And she's being.

Sarah
Married to Hollis, right? Yes. Yes. Otis. Yes.

Sheila
So these are, these are two. One of them. These are two. This is another older couple. Yeah, that have, run this small church, pillars.

Sarah
Of the community.

Joanna
With the community. It's very unclear throughout the book, Hollis and Otis, the reader is meant to understand that their critiques should be taken more seriously. And yet all of their critiques don't deserve to be taken seriously. So this is a problem with the writing. But Mabel is on oxygen, and so she can't cook because she has a gas stove and she refuses to use an electric stove and she refuses to use the microwave.

And I was like, what person is actually like this? But anyway, that's that aside, Mabel or Hollis, her husband. I believe it's Hollis. It could be Otis, but we're just going to go with Hollis. Is talking about how sad she is because she can't cook and she's watching all of these cooking shows, and she's so sad.

And she won all these cooking competitions. And then we actually hear about Mabel's perspective from another woman. And Mabel is not nearly as concerned about her lack of ability to cook than Hollis is. So she's actually not at all into this. And yes, she should just, they should just, get an electric stove. It should be fine. But we've heard that that is not an option for her because she must use a natural gas stove, even though it's a risk of, you know, having a big kaboom with the oxygen.

But then a couple chapters later, she's made lasagnas, and I was like, wait, what? So she's supposed to put her life at risk to make sure that the new couple from church are welcomed? And that's just a thing that happens in the book. We keep going. Nobody critiques it. It's just, yeah, good on Mabel. But I'm like, no, not good on Mabel. It's a service.

Merry
Joanna. That's faithful service. It's a, put your life on the line for Christ.

Sheila
Yes, it really is odd. Okay, let's talk about, let's talk about faithful service. I want to talk about some of the theological points in this book. And prayer is a huge point in all of Francine Rivers' books.

Merry
Yes, yes.

Sheila
Okay. So in every book that you'll read, she has people like the, the, the way the chief portrays faithfulness is do people spend a lot of time in prayer? Do they, do they pray before they make a decision? The idea of, of having this constant conversation with God, which is actually quite lovely. I think a lot of us, you know, what that I believe is, is, is, is quite comforting and it's but it's really what she shows as the most amazing thing.

The problem that I have with this, though, is I think there's a major plot problem here, because she's constantly showing people praying for direction that are very, very, very spiritual, and then they make the exact wrong decision. So it's like, is she actually proving what she thinks she's proving? Because, you know, Samuel is constantly praying and then he does the exact wrong thing.

Eunice and Paul at the beginning are praying and then do the exact wrong thing. Like, this is constantly happening where people are praised for praying and, and yet then they keep doing the wrong thing. And so it's like, and yet we're supposed to build the.

Sarah
It's never called out as human rejection of the Spirit's leading. Yeah, well.

Merry
I think she kind of did, because with Paul, his, his prayer was so obviously him turning around God's answers to justify his actions. So I think in that way, she did show that prayer can be used to justify your bad actions, and you're not even the Holy Spirit's not guiding you, but you're calling it the Holy Spirit.

But that's so, so obvious. And then she doesn't show it in other people's prayer life and how their passivity or lack of action, because a lot of it is not so much, sin by commission, it's sin by omission. If I could put it in those old terms where this, people are doing nothing, but situations are clearly really, really bad.

And I can't imagine the Spirit of God leading us to do nothing when somebody is being harmed. When somebody is being abused, all of those things, it just, it just is, is not the way that I perceive prayer to be.

Sheila
Yeah. Let me just let me just read this part. So Eunice is obviously struggling. Samuel and Abby are with her. This is early in the book. She's obviously struggling with her marriage and they say to her, anything I can do? She put her arm around his waist as they walked into the house. Just what you've been doing. She looked up at him.nKeep praying like it's just keep praying. That's the only thing they ever say.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sarah
Stay out of it.
Merry
And some of the prayer dialog that she supposedly hears from God just sounds so not to God.

Sheila
Yes, I have a whole bunch of that I want to read. Oh, but does anyone, does anyone want to say anything else before I read it?

Joanna
I want to say that this was, this is the part of the book that made me really angry because it's so confusing, because what are the characters supposed to do? So Samuel again, is the guy who we're supposed to think is the bee's knees and who knows the Lord's voice the best. And he's always like, well, we should have caution. And yes, we're outgrowing the church. But no, we shouldn't just build a new building because that feels like. And he's correct in that Paul is letting ambition blind him, but he's wrong. They need to build a new building. It's like not but like this happens a lot. Has like, no, no, you can't teach a basic, Sunday school class on the fundamentals of Christianity without having the elders personally all review it and sign off on it.

I'm like, no, that's not okay. So he's either saying extreme caution is needed. Wait, listen. Let the old guys decide. But then at the end of the book, he's like, oh, no. Impulses actually can just be the Holy Spirit, right? And so he's contradicting himself. How do you know this book actually doesn't teach you how to discern? Yeah, it's all about go on the gut feeling of the dude who is supposed to be the most spiritual, which is what they end up doing, essentially.

Like Samuel is. Right. So therefore just whatever Samuel thinks is you think we should be impulsive, then let's be impulsive if we think we should wait and be, praying about things and letting our decisions percolate, we should do that. And I just, what I was in Bible quizzing, there was a Bible verse that would get a, when I was in the fifth grade, a kid got up and he quoted, be shrewd as snakes and innocent as doves.

And he said, be shrewd as snakes and innocent as dogs, and therefore, that verse has been burned in my brain ever since because, oh, we giggled because he was, he was called wrong because it was doves, not dogs. And, that is Jesus is juristic. That's what Jesus says we should do. He says we should be shrewd.

And the thing that bugged me so much about this book, among many other things, was that there was a lack of shrewdness and that that virtue that Christ calls us to. He talks about in lots of parables. That is never held up as a virtue. We're not supposed to be thinking critically about what we ought to be doing.

We're not supposed to be people of action. We're supposed to just be passive. And I was really frustrated by that because that level of confusion can put people in such bondage, because how do you know that you're doing the right thing. You can't.

Sheila
Yeah. Yeah. And that and that's really it is that there is no actual person who demonstrates a mature faith in this book.

Sarah
No. I wanted to take you back before you. I know you're moving on toward another, another aspect. But before we do that, I wanted to piggyback on something Merry said, and that is when Eunice is talking to Rob Atherton and tells him, going back to that, that even if his wife is cheating on him, he chose her and he should stay with it.

I wanted to point out that this type of refusal, to address the need for safety in a relationship, safety from betrayal, safety from adultery, safety from verbal abuse, financial abuse. I mean, Sheila was abusive to Rob. She is never named as being abusive to Rob. And we see that from the very beginning when Stephen is building her house and she keeps coming in and just expanding the, the list of things and spending money like water and then flirting with Stephen and then and then telling him as if I would look at a blue collar worker like you.

When he refuses to respond positively to her flirtation like she's an abusive. Yes, a caricature of a Jezebel, but she does a ton of abusive things. Rob is an abused husband. And Eunice is an abused wife. Neither of those things, equally for both of them as victims is ever brought out, you know, and in her righteous holiness of suffering, her husband's abuse through the years, she turns and gives Rob the same advice.

Merry
Same bad advice.

Sarah
So the same, the same bad advice. Stay. You chose her. You chose your wife. Stick it out. It. You do not have the right to take action for safety in this situation at all. If you want to be following Jesus and doing the right thing. And I wanted to point out that when we have bad theology on what it means to maintain vows versus violating them, when we have bad theology, toxic theology on betrayal, we primarily focus on how that affects women, and that is well and good.

But if it is not just misogyny, if it's actually toxic theology, it affects abused men too. Yeah, it affects either gender. With the same limiting, silencing, sweeping away of everything they are going through and tying their hands to actually get help and relief and to speak the truth. It's just, I think that it's important to pull that out, that the abused husband in this whole book gets the same God awful advice.

Yeah.

Merry
And the abused son, don't forget. So I think and.

Sarah
This abused son as well. Yes.

Merry
This is one of the most grievous aspects of the theology presented in this book is how abuse is treated or not as an unnamed. Yeah, yeah. And so it's and that's still happening today. You know, this we talk about this all the time about how when abuse is happening, it gets spiritualized and the repentant person comes up and he's all of a sudden he's back in full time ministry or she's back and nothing has been done and no changes have been made other than superficial.

And that's the part that's I'm not at all the Jesus way of love and healing and truth and addressing what needs addressing so that people are no longer in such positions of, abuse and, just misogyny.

Sarah
What we, we completely ignore, have no union with the works of darkness. Instead expose them.

Merry
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Sheila
Okay. 

Sarah
And instead we just go into being rug merchants. Just cover it up, sweep it under the rug. I'll sell you a rug.

Sheila
I want to move on. I want to move on about faith, because we're going long. And I knew we were going to go long, but I do need to read just a couple of the prayers that Eunice does. And throughout this book, Eunice is praying about her marriage. She never hears anything other than the kinds of things I'm about to read.

Okay. Ashamed, Eunice realized she'd spent more than an hour wallowing in self-pity, assessing her husband's faults without examining her own. Lord, please remold my thinking, reshape my heart, burn away the anger that's threatening to sink roots of bitterness into my marriage and my life. That's what we hear over and over again. Okay, here's another one Lord, Lord, kill the root of bitterness growing in me.

I don't want to feel this way about my husband. My son doesn't rise and fall because of him. You are my God. My help in times of trouble and God, oh God, I'm in trouble. And so that's what she's constantly asking for is, let me not be bitter.

Merry
Let me not feel this pain. Let me not be angry.

Sarah
Let me suffer better.

Merry
Yeah. Let me suffer better. Yes. That's a very good way of putting it. Yeah. You know in this world you will have suffering. So let me just do it better. And a more godly way.

Sarah
Honestly, She's almost just asking God to help her to disassociate better. Yep.

Merry
Yes. Yes. Denial. Better.

Sheila
Yeah. And I don't and I.

Sarah
Don't check out.

Sheila
And I don't think that is ever fixed because even at the end, she prays a very similar prayer as she is forgiving him like, let me not think about these days. Let me not think about my own feelings. But anyway, okay, I want to, I want to take some bigger pictures here. So we've talked about like, what is she actually portraying as being, you know, normalish.

Sheila
But then I want to ask, what is she warning us about in this book? Like, what are the big things that we're being warned about? And this one, this is one of the things that made me the most angry because, she in several different passages, she warns about women who will lie about their pastor sexually abusing them.

And so now remember, this is written in 2003, but think about how that influenced, how women interpreted and heard the many, many women who came forward that they had been sexually abused in church situations. So, so there's this one, thing that happens to Sheila the Jezebel. And Paul, you know, our caught and Paul is trying to figure out what to do.

And, and, here's the interaction. So Paul says to Sheila, get out of here. Whatever he had felt for her was gone, burned away with the firestorm of discovery. If you say anything about this to anyone, I'll tell them my part of the story. She turned on him. The innocent, wounded facade she'd worn for months gone. Oh, you mean the part where you seduced me?

Her sarcasm ripped into his confidence, I did not. I came to you for help, Pastor Paul. Remember? And you used me. That's a lie. So what? She laughed at him. Do you think people won't believe me? People always want to believe the worst. Don't you know anything? They. They know me, not as well as I do. And I'd only have to convince a few.

Right. And so it's like this. What is this? What is this warning us about? It's warning us that when women say, hey, this pastor seduced me and used me, that they are lying.

Sarah
Yeah. Have you read or if any of you guys read Redeeming Power by Diane Lane Burke. In Redeeming Power Diane Lane Burke talks about speaking to a group of seminary students. And she's discussing this myth that women will just throw themselves at you all the time because you, are in a position of spiritual power and she says that when she has this conversation with pastoral students, she tells them, even if a woman comes into your office and strips naked, what happens next is on you.

You are the one with the title, the power, the position. And you can either turn around and walk out or you can participate. But your decision, even if someone throws themselves at you and strips their clothes off your decision of what to do next decides the entire following situation and it is your responsibility. Yeah. And in this, in, in this book, in the novel, there is zero recognition that Paul or David might have actually had autonomy and agency to say no.

Yeah. They are helpless in the face of the ego boost. Yeah.

Sheila
Let me read, let me read another passage. And this is Lois speaking. 

"So this is Eunice's mother-in-law talking about her husband who had sexually abused many people in his, in his work. But that's not it's never called that. And she says this about her son, Paul. Give him time. He'll come to his senses. Be patient with him. Is that what you did? Yes. Her eyes shadowed after I swallowed my pride. It hurts when the man you love turns to another woman. It's humiliating. You feel as though you weren't enough of a woman to hold on to your husband. That something was lacking in you, that you were somehow to blame. She shook her head. That's not true. Some men are just weak in regard to other women. They're in a position of authority and power. Women come to them and fancy themselves in love. It's a boost to a man's ego". 

Yeah. So again, it's putting it on the women who are coming to these men because of their position of power and authority, as opposed to these men are able to manipulate these women because of their power and authority.

And, and so, like throughout this book, whenever they're talking about pastors having sex with congregants, it is, it is painted as an affair for which the woman is primarily the one responsible. And think about how that influenced, how congregations and the women in congregations then interpreted it a decade later when all of the stories started coming out.

Merry
Yeah. Oh gosh, that you nailed it there Sheila. That constant message that somehow women are to blame. And that if a woman comes forward to talk about it, she's likely lying, trying to take down the pastor. I think I read some stats that in reality, only 1% of women who come forward are actually lying. Yeah.

And that the rest are telling the truth. And many, many, many more aren't even coming forward because they're so afraid of not being believed. And so that's sort of real stats versus what the church has been taught over the years, that it's the Jezebel, it's the women who are seductive. It's the, the, the, the, the. Yes, it is true.

It's the male ego. But, you know, they can't help themselves. They're in positions of power. So of course women are drawn to them and, and you know, and if their wife wasn't paying enough attention to them, well, then, you know, it happens. And it's, it's that message again. And again and again where again the responsibility is the women, Or if the women dare to speak up, she's probably lying. Yeah. It's done so much damage.

Sheila
Okay. So that's devastating. That's number one. So she's warning against women who are going to seduce all these pastors. The other thing that she's warning about over and over again, over again is the type of church. Right? So the type of church that goes against Jesus. And this is really hard to, to figure out what exactly is wrong with the church because she doesn't define her terms very well. But what we're being warned against is a church that doesn't preach the gospel over and over.

Merry
Yes, yes.

Sheila
So a church that doesn't preach the gospel. So in other words, fundamentalist churches are going to be good. And maybe she's talking like the Joel Osteen type of church. That's bad. I'm not, I'm really not sure. Like what this church that Paul ends up running. What's wrong with it? Because we don't ever get that. We don't ever hear, except that the people there don't believe in Jesus properly, and they're all, they only want, are 15 minute sermons. That seems to be it, right?

Joanna
Also, I love a 15 minute sermon. Bring back the 15 minutes sermon.

Sheila
Yes, I know, me too. But, you know.

Sarah
What if we just had study groups and no sermons. That would be even better.

Sheila
It's interesting in looking at how over the last 20 years, it's been the fundamentalist churches that have, that what we would call the fundamentalist churches that have been the biggest problems.

Sarah
Right.

Sheila
You know, it hasn't been the other ones. And so it's like, she got that wrong. Like, yes, the megachurch model is a big problem. And yes, narcissistic pastors are a big problem. But her solution, like the church that would be safe, has not ended up being the church that is safe.

Right. And to take an even bigger step back, she, she says over and over and over again the churches just need the gospel. Churches need the gospel. She never defines gospel. Except for one part where she almost does. And so I'm just going to read you a bunch of clips, okay. Of where she says this. 
The old pastor gave a good sermon. He didn't deviate once from the pure message of the gospel. Well, here's another. 

If the board gives him the pulpit, the congregation will be hearing the straight gospel from here on.

Sarah
Okay.

Sheila
Here's another. 

They sounded great, but the words had nothing to do with the message Paul was going to give that morning, and nothing to do with the blood of Jesus Christ, who had saved them from eternal damnation.

I think that's the only place where she defines gospel, so that the blood of Christ saves us from eternal damnation, and that's, that is her sum total of the gospel.


And then she says this, this is the truth. It is Jesus Christ you must follow. Jesus is the one who died for you. Jesus is the one with power over sin and death. Jesus as your Savior and Lord. There is no other way to salvation than through faith in him. And that's all good. But this is a very, very, very anemic view of the gospel.

And the fact that she uses the word gospel like multiple times does anyone have a Kindle version that they could just count? I don't know, but it's a lot like and she let's gospel stand in like we're all supposed to know what gospel means. And yet she never ever maybe thinks that maybe gospel could mean what Jesus said it meant.

Like in Luke 4 where he announces his, you know, his mission and the gospel. You know, the spirit of the Lord is upon me, and he has anointed me to what does that preach good news to? What is it to me that.

Joanna
Set the captives free to the poor, and declare the name the day of the Lord? But he lets out the bit about getting vengeance on our enemies. And so he's making a very political point, and it's very, cuts to the heart. He's, he's really challenging everybody there in a powerful way and saying that we have to imagine the other complexly, but we don't want to pay attention to that in this book.

Sheila
Yeah. And if all the gospel is, is, Jesus's blood saves you from eternal damnation. And what Eunice really wants is 40 minute sermons on that. That gets really old really fast.

Merry
And also don't forget the worship songs on the blood too, right?

Sheila
Right, And I'm not saying that the crucifixion isn't important. Please hear me on this. The crucifixion is central to our faith, but we. But, but the other thing she makes clear in the book is that we're supposed to have meat, not just milk like we're supposed to grow. And if the only thing you are hearing in a sermon is that Jesus's blood covers your sins, yeah, so that you don't have eternal damnation.

Is that it?

Because once you believe that, shouldn't there be something else? Shouldn't there be something that you are growing towards. And you can even argue like, is that actually the point? Anyway, there's many things about what atonement means. And I actually want to do a podcast on that with Brad Jursac soon and maybe Andrew, how do you say his last name?

Joanna
Rillera

Sheila
Yeah. Andrew Rillera, on different atonement theories, but like, like, you know, the words that's missing here, that is so much a part of the gospel when you look at what Jesus actually did is the word justice. There is no justice in this book for anybody.

Sarah
Yeah. Nope.

Sheila
And in fact, we're supposed to work against justice because that would be unchristian.

Sarah
But also for all of the emphasis that Jesus' blood, is the one that covers your sins, it seems an awful lot like the abuse victims' suffering is the thing that covers everyone, since the victims of the abusers in the narrative are really the ones placed on the cross of suffering. Instead of recognizing that Jesus was placed on the cross of suffering on their behalf, they are the ones being crucified over and over and over again in the name of protecting the good name and the public image of the church and the ministry, and even just of marriage as a category, as an institution.

Sarah
Yeah. So they don't really seem to believe that Jesus' blood is that which covers, since, it's the victim's blood, sweat and tears.

Sheila
Yeah. And and if and. Yeah. And if Jesus, if Jesus did cover our sins, which he did. Okay. That should impact how we live. And somehow.

That's just never talked about. It's just.

Sarah
Yes, you.

Sheila
Need to believe the gospel, but it's like, how do we live that out is the question. And that's not something that she really ever addresses.

I just found that, okay, we've gone way too long. My last question.

Sarah
Here.

Sheila
Why do Christian women like books like these? And I'll just throw that out to all of you, because I think books like these have had a tremendous impact on women, on our view of faith, on our view of what it means to be a woman, on our view of marriage, on what it means to be like the ideal woman, etc. but women are really drawn to this, and especially teenage girls. Teenage girls read a ton of Christian fiction and just think of how that has impacted it. So why? Why is it that we are drawn to this?

Merry
Well, for myself personally, I read from the time I could read and I read everything. By the time I was a young child, I was already reading the teenage books in the library. So I would go to the library once a week and I would take out as many books as I could. I'd finish them within days, and I'd go back more and more and more and more.

And of course, I'm reading all sorts of different books from different genres, different writers, not Christian. So then, I grew up in a Christian home, walked away, and I, when I came back, I felt like I did not have permission to read those worldly books anymore. But I still love to read. So then I had to find books that were Christian authors, which a lot of them made me gag, to be honest. But at least I got to read. And I'm being a good Christian and it's acceptable. And I'm not going to read anything that's worldly and that's going to lead me astray. So that's the thinking that I had growing up. Part of it is there are some really, really good Christian authors who write amazing fiction books. And so those were really good.

But I think I was drawn to when I sort of, I sin so badly. When I walked away from God, I was such a, like filled with shame, like I was a loser. I was a worm that somehow when I came back, I had to try to be the most godly woman that I could possibly be. And so I would have the theology books or the, you know, be a better Christian type of books that I could read, but I didn't really like them because they were kind of boring.

But I would read them. But these books, okay, they're going to infuse me with this view that's going to help me be a godly wife and mother and all those things. So I was, I was drinking the Kool-Aid in those days. And that's why I read the books. And, I can't, well, I shouldn't, I can't stand them right now.

But yeah, I, it's, it's hard for me to pick up because it is a bit of a trigger for those old days. That's, that's for me, how I felt.

Sarah
Yeah. I think for me there's while I was a lot like you, Merry, hearing you say that I, I started reading very young and I read voraciously. Stacks and stacks and stacks of books. I, my youngest is the same way. She brings home a 500 to 900 page book, probably four different days a week from the school library, and she will have it read by the next day, if not, in a day and a half.

I think part of it is, is, we just love a good story. Right? And so if you feel that secular content, for whatever reason, is off limits to you or is less acceptable, you're going to divert that desire for a good story, a good escape, a good book to read. And you're going to, you're going to divert that into what you feel is kosher.

But, so, I think for a lot of women there's that instead of reading Harlequin romance novels or explicit secular material they just lose themselves in Christian fiction. And it's really not their fault or they're not even aware that so much of Christian fiction is actually teaching really bad theology through story. Yeah. And then there are others, which I would put myself also in this category as a brand new wife when this book came out that are drawn to stories that we think subconsciously even are going to give us tools greater insights, better understanding, and possibly even solutions for dynamics that we are facing in our own lives.

So maybe we already left the author, or maybe we pick up the book and we think, wow, a pastor's family, a struggling church, difficult marriage. I should probably read this. That sounds like a really good story. I could really relate to that. And that's as far as it goes. But then you walk away with this whole worldview being reinforced that tells you how or how not to handle.


Sheila
You know what, Becca? The internet can sometimes be a really, really terrible place.

Rebecca
Absolutely.

Sheila
I have a happy place.

Rebecca
We do.

Sheila
That is our Patreon group on Facebook. It's the place where I go, where you have some encouragement. Where I just need to bounce something off of people to see if I'm crazy or not. And also where I get the best ideas for our podcasts and our blog posts.

Rebecca
Absolutely. And we also have a lot of fun there too. We've created a fantastic community where we, you know, share funny memes that we've seen throughout the week, and we talk about the terrible takes that we saw on Instagram. And you can go somewhere and know that you don't have to defend your belief that women should have rights.

So if you are looking for a way to support this podcast, if you love what we do and you want to give us a tangible step up, you can join our Patreon for as little as $5 a month and get access to our Facebook group, where you'll get to join in the fun and know that you're supporting a fantastic cause.

To join our Patreon! It's just Patreon.com/baremarriage, or take a look at the link in the podcast notes.

Merry
I think the other thing I would add, too, is that there is, a fantasy component to Christian fiction. Yes, where all things work out for good because there's people of great faith.

Sarah
Yes.

Merry
You find the man of your dreams, and just everything just happens so neatly. And I have found that it reinforces, in fact, certain stages in my marriage, I was quite angry, resentful towards my husband because he never was, like, one of the characters in these books I'd be reading. He'd be a normal, smelly, sucked. You know, grumpy, you know, wonderful husband.

But like, he was human. Whereas the ones that were portrayed in these Christian fiction books, I think it kept me in a bit of a fantasy life that allowed me to escape the pain of real life. And it was, you know, it was a little bit like a drug. If I can call it that. And then with the teenage thing, because I raised a daughter, I didn't want her to be exposed to the secular, worldly views. So I actually purchased for her, those books, and I got her hooked on them. And.

Sheila
Been there, done that. Yeah.

Merry
And she wasn't really allowed to read other books. She went to Christian school. So that was like. I mean, it was all just reinforced. So I think that's, I don't, I don't know that a teenage girl left her own volition, with, go into a library of any kind of book and go, oh, these are the ones I want to read. If it wasn't for the influence of their youth group leader, their parents, all of that.

Sarah
Yeah, yeah.

Joanna
I think having been really I know on the, there's no verisimilitude or psychological realism in these books, train I'm going to bring it back there actually for why I think people are drawn to them. I actually think that the lack of verisimilitude is a feature, not a book.

Sarah
Yes.

Joanna
Because the whole goal is that you're supposed to imagine the Sheila character in a super caricatured way, the only way to see a woman who is a victim of clergy sexual misconduct is to see her as a seductress. Their people are either good or they're bad. And also, you don't have to do the hard work of action.

You have an easy heuristic for are people good or bad? There you go. You can imagine the world simply which is not good for you. It's going to create all kinds of problems, as we see for Eunice. But we can ignore that, right? Because it all gets tied up at the bow and it all turns out perfectly. And Jesus shows up in the graveyard, so it's okay.

But also then you imagine you'd also have to do anything because everybody is praying and that takes care of it. So the hard work of having discernment, the hard work of being shrewd, the hard work of calling people out and of getting into the messiness of Stephen. No, you're being ridiculous. You cannot feed this crush you have on Eunice, and therefore you are not being asked to lead the Bible study because boy howdy.

Oh. No, just put a bow on it. He's fine. We'll pray it'll be okay. Well, that is also, if, if we're wanting to keep women in these systems. Teaching women how to self-soothe in that way is not helpful for them psychologically, but it does benefit the toxic system. And I think that that's a big part of what these books do.

And also, I, I just want to finish with, as someone from western Pennsylvania, I discovered at the end of the book where Eunice was actually from, and she was from like an hour or two outside of Pittsburgh, which is where I grew up. And I just thought it was such a sad thing that she did get to be a Steelers fan in the book.

So I was like, oh, she's probably near Shanksville. Like, oh my gosh, everything would be black and gold. Like, she doesn't get to be a real person. And that's the tragedy of this. Is that the things that would have what would have made Eunice a girl from Western PA, the things that would that I would expect someone from my neck of the woods to enjoy, to, find interesting, to have some idiosyncrasies and quirks.

We don't get to have any of that. The men can like golf. They can have things that they like, but the women don't get to. They like to like these very particular things. And I think that these books helped put women in boxes. And that's just so tragic.

Sarah
Yeah. Okay. And with that black and white where it's like so black and white, I want to point out something that hasn't come up at all. And that is when we first meet Stephen. He's an alcoholic. He's spent tons of money. He freely admits that he has kept his addiction and his abuse is very secret, but he's very good at deception, and not even some of their closest friends would know how bad his problem actually is that he's been living in rehab and so on, but his wife is painted as the bad guy.

Yes, for saying that he was abusive and for pointing out that he is not in a position to care for their child because he was living in rehab, which is incredibly valid. He self describes as an abusive, deceptive, addicted alcoholic who cannot, who does not tell the truth, who is untrustworthy in business and who is unreliable, and who is irresponsible with money and,3 and yet he's the victim.

He paints himself as the victim. And we see this in the families I work with, with the court system all the time. But the book leaves it as she's the awful, vindictive, terrible ex-wife who's just out to get him instead of saying, yeah, do you know she's right?

Sheila
Yeah. And

Sarah
These things make you an unfit parent.

Sheila
And it portrays Steven, as Stephen really is the only good guy in this book.

Sarah
I think.

Sheila
Like, Stephen is the one who grows and cries like who we're supposed to like, and yet it never does deal with the fact that if someone truly had that kind of a past, they would need to be doing a lot more work than Stephen is doing, and he should not.

Sarah
The only answer is, read your Bible and find a church from his sponsor. That's all the Bible. And find a church and then find a church.

Sheila
And then there's that guy that he ends up hiring who is living on the street as an alcoholic. And as soon as that guy becomes a Christian, like literally within 12 hours, he's fine.

Merry
Yep. And he's dating his daughter too, don't forget. Yeah.

Sheila
And then he ends up dating the daughter. Yeah.

Merry
And the daughter left and did all that stuff because of his mom who drove her away. Right?

Sheila
Not that dad. So. Okay. So very prominent. Here's, here's my theory too. about why books like these are so popular and why they, why they make us feel good is that it portrays it. It lets us feel like we have the secret sauce.

Merry
Oh, yes.

Sheila
Like we as Christians, we have this secret sauce with Jesus, and Jesus is very active and he will do these amazing things and he will tie everything up in a bow. And you don't have to do anything. But isn't it neat how all of these people can talk to Jesus and can have a real relationship with Jesus? And yes, we can talk to Jesus.

And yes, we should be having a real relationship. But the way it portrays it, it's like we just get to feel and bask like, feel great and bask in this. Oh, I am so great because I love Jesus and we're not challenged to actually do anything.

Merry
Yeah.

Sheila
And that's the big issue I think, is that this book doesn't challenge you to be more righteous or more active or to pursue justice or anything. It's just telling you to be passive.

Sarah
Yeah.

Sheila
But it makes you feel good about it because God, the God of the universe, can actually talk to me and I can have a relationship with him. So it's extremely individual. Even though we know the gospel is communal. It's not just for me personally, it's for transforming of communities, but it's very individual and yeah, I think it feels good.

And then Joanna and you did have a theory too. You haven't said it yet about why you think Christian women read these books.

Joanna
Oh, yes. But actually it's not from me. It's from a wonderful book about women reading Christian romance novels called Romancing God. And she points out a thing, which is that the dudes in Christian romance novels rock.

Sheila
Yeah, Stephen rocks, other than all the abuse and the rehab and all of that.

Joanna
This actually, isn't this, isn't a Christian.

Sarah
Creepy, yeah.
3
Joanna
Yeah, okay. I, I feel like we might need to reassemble this team and do an actual Christian romance novel one of these days.

Merry
Oh, I'd love to. 

Sarah
Yeah, that'd be fun.

Joanna
Usually the guys are super loving. They may make mistakes, but they're attentive and highly involved with their children. Right. Like, think about the, the main guy from Love Come Softly. Right. He's a dedicated father. He is with the main character through her grief. He's just kind and lovely. 

And this contrasts so much with how men are portrayed in the books about how husbands actually are.

Yeah, I think that they're designed to be book boyfriends. They're designed to be your escape from how men are allowed to act in the church, because men are allowed to act like Paul. They're also allowed to act again, like the entitlement that Stephen shows to be so creepy toward Eunice for so long. And she likes it, which is just not how it actually goes in reality.

But anyway, these that's how men are actually acting. But then we read these books about these wonderful guys who would never, and it allows us to escape.

Merry
Yep. Yeah.

Joanna
And that's really quite scary to me that they're, it is this weird synergy between the Christian romance novels and the Christian marriage books.

Sarah
Oh it is parasitic not symbiotic use. Yeah.

Sheila
Interesting. All right. Well ladies.

Sheila
It's been long, but it's been great. Thank you so much for joining us. I'm going to put everyone's links in the podcast notes so you can find Merry. And you can find Sarah and of course you can find Joanna with us.

Merry
This was an amazing conversation. Thanks for having me.

Sarah
Yes. Same

Merry
I'm all fired up. We could keep talking for hours and hours.

Sarah
I know I was having fun. 

Merry
Yes, and I think we should do that romance novel. Joanna.

Sarah
Yeah. I mean.

Sheila
Maybe we'll do another one. We'll see what people think. Okay. Thanks, ladies.

Sarah
Thank you. Take care.

Sheila
Thanks again for joining us on the Bare Marriage Podcast. Let me know if you want us to look at other Christian fiction books. I don't know that I want this to be a constant thing. But if there's, you know, other books to read, maybe there's even some good ones. They can, they can help us present a good view of marriage.

So let me know if you want me to take a look at something else. And maybe we'll put that on our list too, of things to do. I really did appreciate this conversation. There was so much more we didn't get into, like I had, I had a whole bunch of thoughts on Rob Atherton and his first wife, Molly, who we didn't talk about, but she's the only one I liked in the book.

I loved her character development, even though we just hear about her behind the scenes. We didn't really talk about Lois that much and how her view of marriage changed. So there's a lot of things we didn't, we weren't able to jump into just because of time. But I hope, I hope that you take the overall message that books can influence how we see marriage, because they teach us what is normal and they teach us what we should be looking at to critique and what we should be warned about, but also what we should expect.

And even if they're not teaching it explicitly the way self-help books do, we often internalize these messages even more because they're fiction. And so I think we need to start looking critically at some of our Christian marriage books and or sorry, at some of our Christian fiction books. And just saying, is this something which is going to give me a good theology, or is this something which is going to make me think something bad and, you know, fiction, just fiction.

It doesn't have to live up to the same standards as nonfiction, but it does influence us. And so it is important to ask what kind of influence is it having? So thank you for joining us on the Bare Marriage Podcast. Thanks for being part of this conversation. Please check out the links below. And especially to the book For The Love of Women by Dorothy Greco, which I just found was such an incredible book.

Really, really appreciated everything that she had to say. So take a look at that and we will see you again next week on the Bare Marriage Podcast. Bye bye.