Episode 305: All the Problems with Complementarianism in a Nutshell--And How They Try to Make it Sound Pretty

Complementarians use a lot of really nice-sounding words to describe their beliefs about gender roles, but when you actually break down what they mean, they're not talking about roles at all—they're talking about hierarchy. In this episode, Keith and I decode all the euphemisms like "different roles," "servant leadership," and "his headship is for your protection" to show what complementarians are really saying: that men should be in authority over women. The problem is, when you actually implement these beliefs in marriage, we see relationships struggle—and the statistics bear that out. And we work directly against the gospel, putting the husband in the place of Jesus. 

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LINKS MENTIONED: 

• "The Marriage You Want" book on Amazon, or get the curriculum and video series from Baker Books
• "The Bible vs. Biblical Womanhood" by Philip Payne
• "How God Sees Women" by Terran Williams
• Rebecca Groothuis essay on "Equal in Being, Unequal in Function"
• Previous podcast episode on John Piper's "harsh husband" advice 

Chapters

• 0:00 Intro to Complementarianism & what we'll address
• 3:39 "Equal Value, Different Roles" - Why This Makes No Sense
• 16:16 What do Complementarians Really Think About Gender Differences?
• 27:21 Matt Chandler's False Spectrum Between Patriarchy and Egalitarianism
• 30:51 "Servant Leadership" - Which Word Matters More?
• 37:15 What Does Submission Actually Mean in Practice?
• 44:41 The "Burden" of Making Final Decisions
• 51:01 Is Marriage Really a Picture of Christ and the Church?
• 54:55 "His Headship is for Your Protection" - Really?
• 1:02:01 The Two-Headed Monster Myth & Closing Thoughts

Transcript

Sheila

Welcome to the Bare Marriage podcast. I'm Sheila Wray Gregoire. We’re from Baremarriage.com where we talk about healthy, evidence based biblical advice for your sex life and your marriage. I am joined today by one of my favorite people, my husband Keith. I mean, you're kind of here, but, like, I really, really love my daughters too, so it's always hard to say who my favorite is. 

Keith

Not a competition. It's not a competition. 

Sheila

It's not a competition. I love him very much, and we're going to have a great conversation today. Okay. One of my other favorite people a couple of weeks ago, I did a podcast with Rebecca, our daughter, on the euphemisms that we use in evangelicalism about sex and how often those euphemisms are obscuring something which is pretty ugly, like sexual assault or other things. And it's, it's really bad. And people were saying, hey, can you do a similar podcast on the euphemisms that people use about complementarianism? 

Keith

Yes. 

Sheila

Yeah. And how they make it sound so lovely, but they don't say what it really means. 

Keith

Well even complementarianism is a, is a euphemism, right? 

Sheila

Right. Which we'll get to in a minute. Don't spoil it yet. Yes. And so. And so that's what we’re going to do today. Before we get started, one way that you can really help us is if you're watching on YouTube, will you click the like button and hit subscribe because it tells the algorithm, hey, people like this, and then they'll keep coming.

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Sheila

All right hun. 

Keith

Wow 

Sheila

Are you ready? Okay, so what I thought we could do is talk about the way the complementarians talk about what they believe and complementarianism, for those who don't know, is the belief that God made men to be an authority over women in the church and in the home, and some people believe in both. Some people believe in one and not the other. But it's this idea that men were made by God to be an authority over women. 

And we just want to talk about how that manifests itself. Now I want to tell you what we're not going to do in this podcast is we're not going to deal with the biblical arguments because we have done that on other podcasts. And, we're not experts in that. Like we're not Greek experts, although you do read the Bible in Greek, like the New Testament in Greek, which is super cool and kind of sexy, but anyway, so, so.

Keith

Woo, for all you Language nerds out there

Sheila

Yeah. But I'll have some links in the podcast notes to some great books that you can get if you want to learn more about the biblical basis for believing that God created men and women to be equal co-heirs with him, and you can see things like, The Bible Versus Biblical Womanhood by Philip Payne. How God Loves Women, by Terran Williams, 

Keith

no, How God Sees Women by Terran Williams, 

Sheila

How God Sees Women by Terran Williams, and more. So we'll have those on the podcast notes. Absolutely.

Keith

There’s tons of resources about it. So, the fact we're not talking about that today, is not because it's not there, it's because we want to stick to the topic, which is euphemisms. 

Sheila

Right, so let's do the first one.

Keith

Because the whole thing is that if what they believe was true, why don't they just say it. Yes, because they don't say it. They say all these fuzzy things that make it sound warm and calm and great and it's not that. 

Sheila

It's and they don't even mean it. So the first one I want to do, okay, is God created men and women to be of equal value but different roles. 

Keith

Roles is such a euphemism.

Sheila

Yes. And can I deal with this point, because I, I, this is my big point that I do on social media all the time. Okay. Our thesis is that complementarians do not believe in either equal value or different roles. So let's start with different roles. If they believed in different roles, then there would be things that men can do that women can't and things that women can do that men can't.

But in complementarianism there are only things that men can do that women can't. There are no things that, that, that, men are forbidden to do. And people will say, oh, but what about childbirth? As if they, you know, that's a mic drop moment. No no no no no. Because childbirth is not a role. It is a biological function.

You can't, you can't say that because women have this biological function. Men get to have this social role. The only way those two would be analogies is if men pastor with their penis, which is like horrifying. Okay? Like they are not the same thing.

Keith

Your biological body does not influence how you pastor it, right? It just doesn’t 

Sheila

It doesn't influence how you lead, etc.. So so there aren't different roles. I'm, here's an example. I there's, there's a book series that I really love that we talk about in our patreon group a lot, Brandon Sanderson's The Way of Kings. Okay. And in that there are genuine gender roles. Men tend to be the rulers and the warriors and women are the only ones who get taught how to read and write.

And they're the scientists and historians and philosophers, okay? And men are not allowed to read or write, you know, so it's like, it's like there are things that women do that men can't. And there's things that men do that women can't. That's the idea of gender roles.

Keith

You're not advocating that's the way it should be. No. That would at least be internally consistent, right.

Sheila

That's what, that's what having different gender roles would look like. If there are things that women can do that men can't and things that men can do that women can't, but there aren't there are only things that men can do that women can't. Which means that it's not about different roles. It's about restricting women. Yeah. Okay. All right.

Now let's do the equal value. Right. Do you want to do the equal value?

Keith

this idea that you can be equal but not be equal, it’s really really important. And the truth is that most of us see it and realize this is not reality.

Sheila

Like, yeah, you're. 

Keith

You're supposed to be equal. But there's things that, that I can do, you can't. But we're still equal.

Sheila

Yes. 

Keith

People recognize that, that's crazy. But so, the rules thing is a euphemism to paper over the fact that this is completely logically inconsistent. Yeah. So they say it's not that they're, you're you're totally equal in every way. You just have different roles. Right. So philosophically this doesn't make sense the other way. These are a function.

Sheila

Yeah.

Keith

You have a different function. Right. And that's what Rebecca Groothuis

Sheila

Yeah. So Rebecca Groothuis is, was, an incredible Christian, who started, who started a lot of the Christian feminist academic movement in the 80s and 90s. And she wrote this amazing thing, which I'm just going to read because she says it so well, I'm never going to say it this well, okay. But she explains why the unequal value thing or the equal value thing doesn't make sense. So here's what she says. And I will put, I will put the link to this essay that she wrote in the podcast notes too

Equal and being unequal in function is the theoretical construct to which traditionalists appeal in order to assert female subordination to male authority, and at the same time to affirm the biblical teaching that men and women are spiritually equal.

This is a crucial point, because the entire traditionalist agenda turns on the assumption that women subordination to men does not violate the fundamental biblical equality of women with men. If it can be shown that the subordination traditionalists prescribe for women entails an inferiority, not merely a function, but also of being, then the traditionalist agenda, as currently expressed, is internally incoherent. It contradicts itself.

Okay, before I read more, do you want to just explain that to people who may have gotten confused?

Keith

Oh my gosh, Well, first, can I just actually take a little bit of a sideline here? It sure is. The first thing is she's talking about the traditionalist view.

Sheila

Yeah.

Keith

And that's because she's writing before they rebranded as complementarian.

Sheila

Yes, yes.

Keith

And this is what I was thinking about: a complementarian is a euphemism. 

Sheila

Yeah.

Keith

Right. Because complementary, we compliment each other. We fill each other out.

Sheila

Yes. It's comple with an E, like comple E not, compli I. Yes yes yes.

Keith

Comparare in Latin, which the word complete comes from, right. So we complete each other because we have different, you know roles. They say that we complete each other because that's much nicer than traditionalist, because the traditional view through most of human history has been that women should not be allowed to do these things because women are inferior to men. Right? I mean, I'm not saying that's true, but I'm saying that's what was believed.

Sheila

Yeah.

Keith

For years and for centuries, women were considered defective men and considered less than they were considered not smart enough to do it. They were considered not capable enough to do it. And so therefore it makes natural sense. The problem is that nobody believes that anymore.

Sheila

Yes.

Keith

So if you say the traditionalist view, people see you're just talking about the same sexism that we've had for our entire history. So they have to come up with a way that makes it sound nicer.

As so complementarian is the new word to describe this thing. So I think anyway. Yeah. I just think it is funny that she uses the word traditionalist

Sheila

Yeah. And so what she's saying is like their whole argument is that yes women, women are subordinate to men in marriage and in the church. But that doesn't mean women are worth less. And that's what, that's what that's what, complementarians say. And she's saying okay, but if it can be shown that you actually, that your, your whole theory is that necessitates women being worth less, then your whole theory falls apart.

Okay.

Keith

Because the complementarians of today reject the idea that women are intrinsically inferior to men, right?  Ostensibly they do, yes. Although I think some of them. 

Sheila

Yeah.

Keith

The way they've been talking recently.

They're starting to show that they actually do believe women are inferior. Yeah. Which is another story entirely. But ostensibly the complementarians view is that women are completely equal. It's just a different function.

Sheila

Hey there! Have you ever been challenged when you bring up some of the stuff we share on this podcast about how, hey, there's no need to be so angry, men and women are equal now, and you know that's not right, but you don't know what to say. Well, thank you to the sponsor of today's podcast, Zondervan Publishers, for publishing an amazing book that can give you the words and connect the dots for you.

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You will love it just as much as I did.

Sheila

Okay. So here's the rest of what she says.

I agree that it is possible for a person to be justly placed in a position of functional subordination, without being fundamentally inferior as a person, yet I disagree that this is what is happening with the traditional subordination of women, female subordination is very different from functional subordination. In functional subordination roles are assigned and accepted for the purpose of accomplishing a certain function, and with a view to individuals differing abilities and performing particular tasks. For example, someone may serve on a committee under the direction of a coworker who is otherwise her equal in a particular organization, or a person who wants to learn how to play the piano will accept the role of subordination to her music teacher 

In female subordination, the criterion for who is subordinate to whom has nothing to do with expediency, or the abilities of individuals to perform particular functions. Rather, it is determined entirely on the basis of an innate, unchangeable aspect of a woman's being, namely her female sexuality. Her inferior status follows solely from her essential nature as a woman regardless of how traditionalists try to explain the situation, the idea that women are equal in their being, yet unequal by virtue of their being, simply makes no sense. If you cannot help but be what you are, and if inferiority and function follows necessarily and exclusively from what you are, then you are inferior in your essential being.

Keith

Yeah, exactly.

Sheila

Okay. Now did y'all follow that? I know this,

Keith

So, that’s a, There are a lot of philosophical words there

Sheila

But let me, let me give you an example that can make, that can make this okay.

Keith

Can I, can I just because that's what they do, the complementarians say okay? You can say you are subordinate to your boss at work, yes But you are not inferior to your boss.

Sheila

Yes. Right.

Keith

And they say, therefore, it's the same thing.

Sheila

But here's the difference. An employee can one day be a boss.

Keith

Yeah, absolutely.

Sheila

Or they'll say, well, a copilot and a pilot are equal. Are you saying, you know, they're equal? But yes, but a copilot can eventually be a pilot. And that's why these arguments don't work when it comes to women and men. Because no matter what happens, a woman can never be anything other than a woman.

And it is because she is a woman that she is considered functionally inferior and subordinate. And that's the problem. If the reason that she's subordinate is because she's a woman, then being a woman does make you inferior. And that's what they, that's what they wanted.

Keith

Yes exactly, because the traditionalist view was women are inferior to men, therefore they're barred from these positions. That is horrible. But it's logically consistent.

Sheila

Yeah.

Keith

The idea that women are completely equal but still not allowed to do these things is logically inconsistent. It's just their way. They just want to keep the things the way they are.

Sheila

Yes.

Keith

And not answer the question. That is, doesn't that mean women are less than men?

Sheila

Yeah. And they'll and they'll go to the ends of the earth, of course, we don't believe women are unequal. Like, like, just because people have different roles doesn't mean that they're unequal. But yeah, but in every other circumstance, those rules are based on. Yeah. Your function. Like, you know, whether you are a teacher, whether you're an employer, like they're not based on just because you're a woman.

And I think if we were to see it as there was, that there was a brilliant experiment that a teacher did in her class where she declared that blue eyed children were superior to brown eyed children and the brown eyed. And it really threw everyone. And it went, it went viral, when it, when it happened. But it's like, because if we say that, yes, you're above me, but that means, that doesn't mean that we're not equal. But if the only reason you're above me is because I'm a woman and you're a man, then we are indeed not equal. Because I can never be anything other than what I am. Right? You know, and, and this is the thing is, like, they keep saying different, you know, different roles, but equal value. But what they're really arguing for, which they don't say, is hierarchy.  What they're arguing for is hierarchy.

Keith

The role is, one to rule and the other to serve.

Sheila

Yes. That is the role. And that's, that's, like that's not that's not actually a social role. 

Keith

And different is a euphemism too because difference neutral.

Sheila

Yeah.

Keith

Right. But better and worse are not.

Sheila

Yes.

Keith

But the better role. The role with the more perks, the role that most people would want. Yeah. The role that the person in charge, not the person. Yeah. Not the person underneath

Sheila

Because I was talking about this on the Facebook page and a woman wrote this. I thought it was, I thought it was interesting.

She said I didn't realize until I was an adult that this depiction of marriage was more of a social performance rooted in hierarchy than a natural, loving relationship between two mature adults. People will deny it, but if you strip away all the pretty descriptions that try to justify and soften the appearance of it, that's what it really is. Underneath, a hierarchy. And people choose to interpret the scriptures they used to justify it without truly investigating the context and holding it up against other parts of Scripture, such as those that equalize every person in Christ.

Keith

Yeah, yeah. And that's why I think we should call complementarians, hierarchists. Because. Because egalitarians are complementarian as well.

Sheila

Yeah.

Keith

That’s like the technical term.

Sheila

Well, this is the idea, that people don't know. That's what people don't know, is that the term complementarianism was actually started by egalitarians back in the 70s, like they were they were describing how God created the sexes differently, but to complement each other and to and to show and to show in relationship different aspects of the Godhead. And so we need both men and women like we need both men and women's perspectives, you know. 

Keith

And the traditionalists went, communitarian. That's a good word. We can co-op that. 

Sheila

Yeah. Because it, because it, sounds nice. Right. And that's the next, that's the next point I want to use.

Keith

So all Christians are complementarians. There's, there's, complementarian egalitarianism. And complementarian hierarchicalists 

Sheila

Yes. But I don't use the word complementarian for egalitarian, it's just because, it's been so co-opted. But it was originally an egalitarian word.

Keith

But, but hierarchy is what it's about.

Sheila

Yeah, it is just about hierarchy. Okay. That gets us to the next point, which is that complementarians claim that egalitarians say there's no gender differences. And the reason we have to be complementarian is that we affirm that the genders are different. Okay.

So here's a quote from, one of the quintessential books, that started the so-called complementarian movement, Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood by John Piper and Wayne Grudem. All right. And it says:

at the heart of mature masculinity is a sense of benevolent responsibility to lead, provide for, and protect women in ways appropriate to a man's differing relationships. 

At the heart of mature femininity is a freeing disposition to affirm, receive, and nurture, strength and leadership from worthy men in ways appropriate to a woman's differing relationships. 

Yeah. So femininity is about affirming and nurturing your role to lead.

Keith

Yeah. Well, here’s the thing is, they're using very positive terms. So they're trying to make it sound really good. So the role of the men is to protect and to what was the other words they said about the men,

Sheila

Provide for and protect.

Keith

To lead, that's a euphemism. Lead is a euphemism

Sheila

A euphemism. Yeah. Benevolent response. Yeah.

Keith

Okay. Provide, protect, lead, the woman, okay. So how am I supposed to relate to other men.

Sheila

Yeah.

Keith

Because they're also supposed to be providers and leaders and protectors. Am I allowed to protect and lead and provide for them? Am I, am I not able to nurture, is that only a female thing.

Sheila

Yeah.

Keith

Like so it's just crazy. So the idea that maybe men have a propensity for one way, women have a propensity for another way. Okay, how does that mean that, the one has to be subservient to the other? 

Sheila

Yeah I know, and, and the, when they describe gender differences, this is this is also what's so interesting is the only way that they describe gender differences is in terms of hierarchy.

Keith

Yeah.

Sheila

Right. So so men lead and and protect and provide which is, which is essentially a hierarchical relationship.

Keith

Those are all, those are not euphemisms. Those are kind of like dog whistles in a sense.

Sheila

Yeah. And women nurture the men to leadership. So it's not actually about the things that they have found are, do tend to be some gender differences. You know, that women and men tend to go in certain. No, it's just about hierarchy and, and and the, the and we'll talk about the actual gender differences in a minute. But, but, they just talk in terms of hierarchy. Okay. And the, that is essentially what it means to be what it means to be a man is to be in hierarchy over a woman. And what it means to be a woman is to be under a man. That's essentially what he's saying. Okay. 

Keith

And so they talk about differences, and that's a euphemism for higher and lower.

Sheila

They don't actually mean differences. They just mean leadership. And so I want to listen to this clip, from John Piper where he's talking about this. Okay. So let's just have a listen.

John Piper

In fact, I personally would say that the attempt by feminism to remedy the male abuse of women by the nullifying of gender differences backfires badly and produces millions of men that women cannot enjoy because of their own manliness and cannot endure because of their distorted, brutal manliness, doesn't produce something beautiful. In other words, if we don't teach boys and girls about the truth and the beauty and the value of their differences from one another. They will not grow up to be healthy, mature men and women. They will grow up dysfunctionally. And a generation of young adults comes into being that simply don't know what it means to be a man and don't know what it means to be a woman. And the cultural price for this is enormous.

Sheila

So the cultural price we pay is enormous Keith. Cuz like, we are paying a huge cultural price for our marriage. Yeah, yeah. But what I find so interesting is when you actually look at what he's saying, he is not talking about gender differences, he is only talking about hierarchy. Right? When you get rid of hierarchy, then then cultural stuff.

Keith

And he talks about how mature men then are going to abuse the position of, authority over women, right? Just like, if you didn't tell men in the first place that they have a God given right to authority over.

Sheila

Women, yeah.

Keith

Then maybe they wouldn't abuse that. Yeah, yeah. So that's the problem is not that we're teaching people that when men and women should be equal. Yeah. Problem is that you are teaching men that being equal to a woman is a demotion.

Sheila

Yes.

Keith

That's the problem.

Sheila

Yeah.

Keith

Like being equal to my wife and the two of us chasing after God together.

Sheila

Yeah, that's.

Keith

Not good enough. Yeah, I'm not manly enough if I do. That, that's crazy.

Sheila

And I just, I want to take this moment too, to say that, that he's saying the cultural price we pay for egalitarianism is enormous. Okay. That's actually, that's statistically untrue. It's absolutely statistically untrue. The, the healthiest countries are the countries where there are, where there is more gender, gender equality. In our studies for our new book, The Marriage You Want, we found that when couples are equal and don't have someone acting in authority over the other and don't have someone making the final decision, those couples thrive. As soon as you have the husband, having decision making power over the wife, those couples start to do badly. So they're making all of these claims that simply are not backed up by science. Okay.

Keith

And the reason they feel right, is because they do. We do see men who are, you know, bums who just basically do nothing and leech off other people. That happens.

Sheila

Yes.

Keith

But the reason they do that is because they feel entitled to be able to do that. Yeah. You know, because we've taught them not to be partners. Yeah. We’ve taught them to be a leader or take your ball and go home. Yeah. That's what Piper teaches people.

Sheila

Yeah.

Keith

It's crazy. We taught men to just, that being, an equal with a woman. Yeah, is a good thing. Because God made us each to contribute. 

Sheila

And how many times have we heard pastors say, you know, women, if you don't let your husband lead, he's just going to withdraw? Yeah, he's just going to go to, you know, hang out with his buddies or go to work. 

Keith

Men Be in charge. And if they don't, they'll go to video games where they can be. 

Sheila

Yeah. It's like, then maybe he's not a good guy.

Keith

Maybe teaching them to be different, maybe teach men to be mature.

Sheila

Maybe teach men to be like Christ, like, you know, like like. So if he, if he won't, if he doesn't get to do whatever he wants, he's going to pick up his ball and go home because that's, you know, that's essentially what it means. Then, then maybe he's just a really, bad husband, like, this is, this is just crazy. 

Sheila

I do want to talk for a minute, and I'm not going to spend too much on this about what they have found to be some gender differences. And I want to say that there aren't things that are women that women do and men do like almost every trait across society is on a bell curve. And we've explained this in other podcasts.

We explain it a lot in chapter one of The Marriage you Want. But things like who has the higher libido? Who talks more, who's more logical versus who is emotional, more emotional, etc. those things are all in bell curves. And there's a lot of overlap for, for almost everything. So even if men tend to be more one way and women tend to be more another way, there's often more differences between women. The two standard deviations between women and between men then there is, between the average man and the average woman. Okay, so gender differences on the whole are overblown.

Keith

But, but that does not mean we're saying there's no differences. Like that is a strawman

Sheila

Right. But also there is, there is one super essential difference, which is rooted in our biology, which is women are just simply more vulnerable than men are. Yeah. Okay. Like our, our, our experience of life is very different. We are more vulnerable to sexual assault. We are smaller, on the whole. We are not as strong. There's an awful lot of women I know who are stronger than a lot of men. But like on the whole, women aren't as strong as men. And every month, you know, a lot of women of child bearing age go through a lot of pain. We also get pregnant, which is very vulnerable. And then we're nursing, which is very vulnerable. We give birth, which is incredibly painful. So these are all things that women do do.

And because women go through that, women have like, more of a need than men to make sure there's community around us and that we are safe. And so women often do invest in relationships at a young age. And we are socialized to do that because it's necessary for us to survive in a way that isn't that it isn't for men.

And so I think when it comes to being a man and a woman, I think, you know, what does that mean? I think women, women, do tend to be more cooperative. And they found that in societies where women have more power, those societies tend to be more cooperative, you know, but what men have is the privilege of not having to be as worried about these things, which means that I think godly masculinity is recognizing the privilege you have and laying down that privilege to help women and to lift up women. 

And that's what we see Jesus doing constantly, is laying down his privilege to help up, to help those around us. And I think, you know, God made men to not be as debilitated so that they could help those who are weaker among them, which is what Peter was talking about in first Peter, talking about the weaker vessel. I think, you know.

Keith

Because we're supposed to work together. We're supposed to be a team.

Sheila

Yes.

Keith

Yes, given the fact that you're, you're more vulnerable and you're at risk. So I have the ability, to help protect you and that sort of stuff. So as a Christ follower, what am I going to do with that? Yeah, right. Am I going to demand your subservience to me? Am I going to demand that you submit to me? Like how is that Christlike?

Sheila

Yeah. Yeah. Maybe it just means you change diapers so that I don't have to get out of bed in the middle of the night when we're having babies, right?

Keith

Absolutely, well, like, this is the thing is, a lot of these people say, well, you know, you, you feminists want us to, hold the door for you and pick up the bill, but you don't want to do whatever the stupid thing is that they are saying. 

Keith

There's. Right. It's like, that's really your mentality as a Christian. Like. So. So if my job is to protect and provide for you and I don't get your subservience in return. Like, why does that anger you?

Sheila

Yeah. Right.

Keith

What does it anger you as a Christian? Because, you've, you've taken in this lie that men are supposed to be in charge of women.

Sheila

Right. Yeah. And the idea of protection, of providing. We're not saying that. And please don't mishear what I said. Like, I don't mean that because women give birth, you know, they can't get jobs or something like that. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that women are vulnerable at certain periods of our lives and you know, it is best for women to be with their babies when the babies are born because of nursing.

And most countries have a lot of maternity leave policy, which is good. But having a man involved to help at those times, I think that's really what it's talking about, you know, and.

Keith

I'm just saying that because maybe God made you men, on the whole, slightly stronger or having less of these kind of issues that they deal with, for you to then think that gives you the right to be the authority over women. Like where is your head at.

Sheila

Yeah.

Keith

Like, how do you reconcile, that, with the one who, you know, laid his life down. The one who said, not so among you. Yes. Like, how does that jive? With be the servant of all. How does it, it doesn't fit.

Sheila

No, it totally doesn't.

Okay. I have another clip to play. The context is Matt Chandler, who is a megachurch pastor in the Southern Baptist Convention from, the Dallas area, I believe. And he is talking here, in a sermon about the differences between egalitarian and complementarian and complementarianism and why we should be complementarian and and again, he was making the point right before this clip, that egalitarians basically don't believe in gender differences. All right. Which is not true. And so he's, he's putting up a straw man argument here. But let's just listen

Matt Chandler

We we can see much good and much beauty and what the egalitarian is trying to do, but we feel like it falls short of the full scope and scale of the Word of God. Which is why we're complementarians. So let me show you this, because we got to talk about complementarianism, because we've got our own issues. Right.

So let me put up a new slide. So here's Complementarism. And what we're saying in Complementarism is we are, distinct from one another but dependent upon one another. Right? Distinct and dependent. What we're trying to do is we're, we're trying to move to this place where neither is over-emphasized and both mutually respect and understand. 

Right. And so here's how Complementarism will play out in its practicalities. Not it's belief shoot around, a lot of people and say we're, we're complementarian but act far more like those in the patriarchy camp or they're going to say they're complementarians but actually work far more like egalitarians, right? So here's, here's kind of what we came up with.

And there are careful complementarians. Right. And they're nervous about this issue. And you're like, oh my gosh. You know I know, I know that's just a gray area. So let's just err on being conservative. But yeah, I can kind of see that in the text. I kind of see your point. But man, if we do that, this slippery slope, it won't be long. We'll be baptizing cats. And then what are we going to do once the church becomes that, right? They're just nervous. We don't want to be careful complementarians. We want to be convinced. We want to be convinced. We want to operate in the spaces that God has created. As we celebrate being distinct and dependent from one another. Right.

I just want to celebrate this and rejoice in this, God's good gift to us. And so let's. 

Sheila

What do you first notice about this before anything else? 

Keith

Oh yeah. Like your spectrum. Like it's a spectrum.

Sheila

Right, right.

Keith

And we're in the happy middle, right? It's like you can be in the happy middle of any spectrum if you choose where the points of that spectrum begin and end.

Sheila

Yeah.

Keith

Right. And like, if you want to be seen as a moderate just pick the right points.

Yeah. So, on the one end you have men being in charge and patriarchy and on the other end you have no one being in charge. Men and women together in egalitarianism. And then as complementarianism in the middle, do you see anything wrong with that? People, like the spectrum doesn't go between egalitarianism and complementarianism.  Egalitarianism is already the middle.

The opposite of patriarchy is not egalitarianism.

Sheila

No, it's matriarchy, but it's not even, it's not even matriarchy, because studies have shown that in cultures that are more matriarchal, they don't, they're not hierarchical in the same way. They're much more cooperative. So it's like, it's not even like that. But egalitarianism is already the middle. And yeah.

Keith

By definition, If you're talking about hierarchy and who is in charge of who.

Sheila

Yes. Right.

Keith

The one extreme is the men are in charge of the women.

Sheila

Yeah.

Keith

The other extreme is the women are in charge of the men. That's just logical. In the middle where they both have equal say is the middle.

Sheila

Yes. Right.

Keith

So for you to pick complementarianism in the middle because you just make this egalitarianism the anchor point of the extreme other side. It is crazy, it’s just silly.

Sheila

Yeah. Yeah. So it is very silly. Okay. All right. Next one is and this gets more into the concept of design okay.

Keith

So design’s a euphemism.

Sheila

Yes. Yes. Men were designed to lead and women were designed to follow. So we've talked a little bit about equal value. But this is actually like in our essence that God designed, you know, mentally.

And here's what Desiring God has said about this. So John Piper, he said, God has designed men for Christ-like servant leadership, and God has designed women to honor and affirm her husband's leadership.

Again, that's just so silly. Like, so the essence of being a woman is to affirm that I am under a man like this.

Keith

So like what about women who aren’t married?  Like how are they going to fulfill their role? Are we going to talk about servant leadership as a euphemism?

Sheila

Yes. Please do, please do. Right. Yeah. No, that's now that's now.

Keith

Servant leadership is a huge euphemism. Right. Okay. What he’s saying is that, is God like it's. What is he really talking about? He's talking about being in charge.

Sheila

He really is. Yeah.

Keith

But, Servant leadership sounds so much nicer. It sounds so beautiful. Right. Because Jesus did tell us to be servants. 

Sheila

Right. 

Keith

But here's the deal. Let's take the word servant leadership, And if I say to one of these people.

Sheila

Yes.

Keith

In one of these complementary spaces. You know what? I just try to be my wife's servant.

Sheila

Yeah.

Keith

Every day I get up, I think, how can I serve my wife? I just wanna be your servant. Their hackles would rankled a little bit.

Sheila

Right? Yeah.

Keith

Because men are supposed to lead, men. Men are supposed to lead, right? Yes. Servant leadership. It's very clear which of those two words is the more important word. Yeah. Right. Like if I said I am a servant leader to my wife, they'd all be calm.

Sheila

Yeah, yeah.

Keith

I'm leading because the lead is the important thing. But here's the thing. Jesus didn't tell us to be servant leaders.

Sheila

No. Right.

Keith

That the command is to be the servant.

Sheila

Yeah.

Keith

So if the new added word leadership becomes more important than the word that Jesus actually spoke, you're probably off track. Right. Because the whole point is not leadership. The Bible never tells men to lead their wives anywhere.

Sheila

Yeah. There is no command to men, to lead. Yes.

Keith

And they read that into the word head which they use as a euphemism for leading. Right. Which is not what it's meant to be.

Sheila

And it's not and it's not there in the Greek, there's.

Keith

Read into the Bible and they have the gall to say that we're reading our feminism into the Bible. Yeah. Because we think that men and women should be considered equal.

Sheila

Yeah. Just like Paul said. Yes, exactly, exactly.

Now here's where things get really interesting, okay, is that you will hear these sermons about how beautiful this picture is of the leadership that men gave the servant leadership. And it sounds really lovely.

Keith

But I think people who are leaders, should be servants. Yes. For sure,

Sheila

Yes, but what does it actually mean in practice? And that's what they will never, you'll never hear a sermon on. Like what the nitty gritty of this actually means when when marriage is rough, they just simply say, no, no, no, you've got to lead and just gotta follow. But, but then, when you look at specific instances of advice, you hear stuff like this. 

And so here is a podcast that John Piper did answering the question of what do I do with my harsh husband? And I'm only going to play the very last bit of it. But throughout this article, and Rebecca and I did a podcast just on this, like a couple of years ago. I'll put a link to it in the podcast notes, but he's telling her that, she has to speak kindly to him.

She can't tell anyone else that he's being harsh because that would be disrespecting him, etc., etc., etc. And here is the finale of what he says.

John Piper

And then finally I would, I would say, if he indicates a sense of openness to talk about this, and then you can explain your feelings more fully. You can ask for what you long for and maybe explain why it would be so happy for the relationship, if, if he would be less harsh in these several ways. And if you both feel stuck after a while, it is perfectly biblical and right to seek help from close friends, or even if it comes to that, from a wise Christian counselor.

Sheila

Now, I want you to notice a couple of things that he said at the end. He says if he indicates a sense of willing openness to talk about this, then you can explain your feelings more fully. So you can't explain your feelings unless he's open to it. And then if you both feel stuck, then it's okay to seek a counselor.

So she cannot seek a counselor on her own. So she is with a harsh husband. She can't tell anyone about it. She can't do anything about it unless he is willing to do something about it. That, in his mind, is what servant leadership means. Is that because he is in leadership over her, even if he's not being a servant at all, if he is being a bully, she still must be subordinate to him and not like, challenge him at all or not say, hey, this isn't fair.

Keith

Yeah, I see the point of this. The euphemism is that he's supposed to be the servant leader. But that's just the way to make. 

Sheila

It look nice. Yeah.

Keith

Because even though he's not a servant leader, he still gets to be the leader.

Sheila

Yeah. And that's what they'll say. Like John Piper also famously told women and we've played this in the podcast, we did in the Danver statement that, you know, that you should just endure getting smacked around for a night. Right? So you should just endure abuse if you need to. Yeah, yeah.

Keith

So servant.

Sheila

Yeah.

Keith

Is the Trojan horse. Right. Which lets in the real thing which is the leadership. And the leadership can be whatever you want it to be. 

Sheila

Yeah.

Keith

Like it's supposed to be nice, but it doesn't have to be because these people always counsel women to go back to their abusive husband. Yeah. To whatever they say. This is not the case. I think the thing is funny. It's like, what does it mean to be, you know, what do these things mean? And it means, what it means to be a leader. And it can be as far toward patriarchy as your church will let you.

Sheila

Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Keith

Like it, like it's, there's no happy middle ground between patriarchy and egalitarianism. Like whatever Matt Chandler says.

Sheila

Yeah. 

Keith

It is, it is like you're going to be drawn like the church is going to get pushed as far as it can. If you get a real patriarchal pastor in there, he's going to push it as far as he can. The only way to protect yourself is to just believe from the very beginning that God created men and women equally, like we both have a role to play and neither our voices should be silenced. Yes end of story 

Sheila

Yes Okay, so then what does it mean to lead? What does it mean for her to submit? Okay, so, pastors are always saying this isn't bad for women at all. So I want to play a clip from pastor Josh McPherson. This is from a couple of years ago. So he doesn't have the famous beard that he has now on all of his Instagram things. 

Sheila

But, but let's just, let's just listen to this

Josh McPherson

Submission from wives to husbands is not all women submitting to all men in general. And never does Paul say all women are to submit to all men in general. It is always specific from a wife to a husband. 2. Submission is not for weak women. We've seen Jesus infuse submission with great dignity and strength. It takes someone filled with the Holy Spirit, like Jesus, to fully live out this role of helper, God's given the wife. Submission is not a wife, Stop, Stops thinking for herself. If you as a wife hear me say, submit and interpret I need to stop thinking, bad translation. You've been given to help your idiot husband and to help your idiot husband. You need to think, he needs help. I need help and we will not be helped if you don't think. 

Submission is not the ceasing of your thinking. Submission is not mechanical, blind, cookie cutter obedience. Submission is not demeaning, degrading, dehumanizing. Submission is not putting the husband in the place of Jesus. Get this, it's God. Christ, husband, wife. Your submission to your husband is an act of submission, ultimately to Jesus and the father, right? So if your husband, like an idiot, asks you to watch porn with him or your husband like an idiot asks you to stop going to church with him or your husband like an idiot, asks you to do anything that would be out of line with Jesus's command in your life. You have an obligation to lovingly, but firmly, disregard your husband's instruction for sin and obey and follow Jesus. That's a difficult road to walk. Requires nuance and still the spirit in community, because it's hard to do in a respectful way, in an honoring way, a loving way. But you cannot let your husband lead you into sin.

Keith

Okay. So, like, I hear a lot of what submission is not.

Sheila

Yes, yes.

Keith

Never clearly saying what it is, again. Because like I said, the point is to be able to push it as far as you can. Right. And we don't. And when we realize we're getting pushback as women are going, that doesn't sound like equality at all. They kind of hold off there until we can wear them down a little bit and push a little further.

Sheila

Yeah, I'm.

Keith

Being a bit cynical. Oh, this is a little bit harsh.

Sheila

Yeah.

Keith

I don't think most men are trying to subjugate women. I, you know, I think because it's happening. But I just worry that when you start, these kind of ideas are so toxic that once they get into you that you're just going to push you further and further away. I mean, and it's going to be, it's going to be pushed away from even the truth of the faith.

Like he's talking about how, you know, women aren't supposed to submit to their husbands if they caused them to sin. Right. And he's actually talking about the woman submits to the husband as part of submitting to God.

Sheila

Yeah. Right. And yet.

Keith

She has a hierarchy like God,

Sheila

Jesus.

Keith

The husband, the wife.

Sheila

Yeah.

Keith

Like that is crystal clear. The theological problems of that are so hideous. So the idea that a wife is supposed to serve her husband, as he does servant Leadership. That's a euphemism masking. Theologically. Completely heretical.

Sheila

Yeah. It's a heresy. It's a heresy because it's saying that Jesus is under God.

Keith

Jesus is under God the Father.

Sheila

Yeah.

Keith

Like, like Jesus is under the Father. And, and then, the husband is under Jesus.

Sheila

But is closer to Jesus than the wife is. Yes.

Keith

This is a spectrum from God the Father down to a woman. Yeah. Like, is that really the case? And how does the idea that he is between her and Jesus, how does that not contradict that there is no mediator between you and God.

Sheila

Yeah.

Keith

How does it not? That's crazy.

Sheila

Yeah.

Keith

And so when you spell it out like that, it's clearly obviously wrong. And it's rare they slip and make it that evident. Because. They talk about these euphemisms like servant leadership. And yeah, she's she's, not she's not idolizing her husband. She's just submitting to him as he submits to God.

Sheila

Right. 

Keith

But it's like well that he's your idol because he's the route that you get to God. You serve God through serving him. Yeah. That's idolotry.

Sheila

Well, let's, let's let's bring this down a little bit more. So he says that, obviously you don't follow your husband into sin. Okay.

Keith

But what then, what does he say?

Sheila

Yeah, but but but but then. Yeah, that's a whole other point. Okay. We'll make that point first. We'll make that point first. But then look at how she's supposed to handle that. So he is saying, hey, watch pornography with me. And she now has to honor him.

Keith

And she's okay to say no.

Sheila

Right?

Keith

She has to do it in a very specific way. Yeah. You just can’t leave it at.

Obviously she doesn't watch porn with him. No, because she has to be reminded.

Sheila

That she is under him when he is sinning. Yeah.

Keith

That even when he is sinning, she's under him. That's more important.

Sheila

Yeah. And what did he say? Like she's got to be. She's got to be honoring and she's got to be respectful. Like it's, like, she has to jump through all of these hoops to just simply say what she thinks, which is ridiculous.

Keith

And John Piper has one too, where he talks about a wife's submitting to her husband when he wants, in case of abuse

Sheila

No, A threesome it Was the threesome. How she has to be kind and yeah,

Keith

Just like the fawning. Yeah, kinda like. And it's just like, that is not what they think a Christian man wants from his wife. 

Sheila

Yeah But I do want to talk about this idea that, as long as he's not sinning, you go along with him, and this is the problem, okay? Because yes, people will always say, well, obviously you don't follow him into sin.

What if it's not a sin? What if it's like he feels called to, put all of their money into this risky business venture? Or what if he feels called to uproot the family away from a support system and move to a different other place? Or what if it's that he feels called to switch churches and she doesn't? And what if she's hearing something very different from God? 

Okay, then in that case, she is being told to follow him and that in following him, she is following Jesus. Yeah. So what? That is essentially saying that Jesus’ will is whatever the husband's will is. So Jesus is subordinating his will to the husband's will.

Keith

Effectively.

Sheila

Effectively. Because if she follows him regardless of what he's doing, because in following him, she's following Jesus, then Jesus is under the husband, because now whatever the husband says is there for Jesus’ will for her. Yeah. So the husband's will is about Jesus’ will to do this.

Keith

I think we shouldn’t do this. You, my husband, think we should, We're at an impasse. I have to follow Jesus by following your lead.

Sheila

Yeah 

Keith

I feel like I'm being told by Jesus. Not. But I’m being told by you, Yes. They are very clearly saying the tie break goes to the husband, and I need to follow his guidance. Yeah, that is subjugating Jesus's will to the husband 

Sheila

Yeah. And that is idolatry. That is, that is teaching women that they are to violate which, which, which commandment is it? The second I think yeah, it's I think it's the second. But yes. Yeah. That they are to violate a commandment. Okay. Again.

Keith

So, and all of these things are about there, they think it sounds so nice. 

Sheila

Yes. 

Keith

Right. Submission is not turning off your brain. Yeah, well, it kind of is.

Sheila

It kind of is. Yeah.

Keith

Well it kind of is If I have to say. Well, I really feel that he is telling me this, but my husband is saying something else, I have to turn my brain off.

Sheila

Yeah. And if I do feel strongly about something, I have to say it in such a weird, convoluted way, too. It's like it's crazy. Okay, let's move on to the next one. All right? 

That God calls men to bare the burden of responsibility.

Keith

Burden is a Huge, huge. 

Sheila

For the family. And don't women understand the burden that men have? Okay. Yeah. Here's something that, John, here's John Piper.

Ultimately, the husband is the one who pays the price for his decisions that he makes on behalf of the family. Right. So the husband is going to make the decision and ultimately he pays that price and he's going to be responsible.

Actually, the husband makes a bad decision. It's the wife and the kids that are going to pay the price the most. Right. Here's what they say in Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood.

Keith

Yeah.

Sheila

Again by John Piper and Wayne Grudhum, mature masculinity accepts the burden of the final say in disagreements between husband and wife, but does not presume to use it in every instance. Wasn't that kind, in a good not every instance, yes. And in a good marriage, decision making is focused on the husband, not God, the husband. But it is not unilateral.

He seeks input from his wife and often adopts her ideas. This is implied in the love that governs the relationship, in the equality of personhood, implied in being created in the image of God, and the status of being fair fellow heirs of the grace of life. Unilateral decision making is not usually a mark of good leadership, but it might be, you know, you're not usually, but it could be. It generally comes from laziness or insecurity or inconsiderate disregard. 

Now, to be clear, we measured the effects of what happens when the husband makes the final decision, even if he seeks input from his wife first. And we found that divorce increased to 7.4 times and marital satisfaction plummets. John Gottman found something very similar a divorce rate of 81%.

This is absolutely toxic. Yeah. Absolutely toxic. But let me just talk about

Keith

They used the word burden. It makes you feel sympathy for this poor person who has to rule over you.

Sheila

Yeah, yeah. And to be honest, I actually think that good guys like very good guys who are raised in complementarian do feel the burden of this because they're like, oh my gosh, everything rests on me. God holds me responsible. That is a terrible thing to put on men like, no, God created a woman so that you don't have to have the whole burden rest on you like, for pity's sake. But here's the thing if it truly were a burden to get your way when you want to get your way, because that is essentially what it means, right? To get to make decisions when you disagree. Then we would see that show up in surveys. We would see that in couples that practice this, men do worse than women because they carry this tremendous burden.

Right. We don't see that at all. In fact, there is a survey, a study out of what's it called? We quoted a lot by Holman, but what's it called, like, stratified sexism, I think, in churches. And they looked at churches where, it's egalitarian or churches where men are in charge. And they found that in the churches that are egalitarian men, women both have better health benefits than the general population.

But as soon as you put men in charge of women, the health benefits for women of religiosity disappear. Yeah, but for men, they don't. Men do great. And this is the thing this is and this is what multiple surveys have found, is that men in these relationships do great, women don't. So if it's such a burden, why are we seeing men benefiting from it?

And women not.

Keith

Well. And the thing too is it. It's a euphemism because it sounds better than I want to be in charge.

Sheila

Yeah.

Keith

Because we say, well, it's such a burden. Let's make decisions together.

Sheila

Yeah.

Keith

Let's both seek God's input, and together we make decisions together. Yeah. They will be up in arms. No no no no no no no. Don't take my burden.

Sheila

Yeah, yes I like my burden I like my burden.

Keith

Yeah it's not, it's just burden is the word they use. Yeah. To make it palatable. It’s  crazy because there is no reason why you and I can't make decisions together 

Sheila

I know, and that's what a lot of them say too, is. Oh, well, if you don't have someone being the tiebreaker, then what are you going to do when you disagree? And it's like, buddy, you figure it out. Like, we've been married either for 30, 30, 34 years, almost.

Keith

It will be 34 next month, wow.

Sheila

And we make decisions together. It's not a big deal.

Keith

Well, and there's times where I'm leading because it's an area of expertise for me. And there are times you're leading, because it is an area of expertise for you.

Sheila

Yeah.

Keith

And we go back and forth and we use our strengths because God made us different.

Sheila

Yes, yes.

Keith

And we each contribute our differences, are 100% of me, 100% of you. It makes it great. 

Sheila

Yeah.

Keith

This is what I hate. All these euphemisms are just masking that what they're actually doing is telling you to be less, because you're the wife. Yeah, you need to tone it down and summit in the background. Not all the way, because that would be patriarchy. And we're not patriarchs. Yeah, right. Yeah, but. but enough that I'm comfortable.

Yeah. And that's  crazy. I want you 100%. I want everything for you, you can bring me this relationship. Yeah. That's what egalitarianism is. It's. Yeah. You and I are changeable.

Sheila

No.

Keith

Gosh no 

Sheila

No.

Keith

It's just that, I'm not over you. Yeah I mean it's they talk about that the man is the head of the house. 

Sheila

Which is nowhere in scripture by the way.

Keith

That is not in Scripture, it's just the man's head of the woman. It doesn't mean.

Sheila

Close, the closest thing to head of the house, in Scripture is actually referring to women.

Sheila

That the wife is the xo. The

Keith

The Oikos despoites

Sheila

Is yes.

Keith

That the despoite of the oikos, which is house, in Greek.

Sheila

Yes. Yeah.

Keith

But the point is that, you know, the man is the head of the house. That's not in there. The head of,the man is the head of the woman, is there. But again, that doesn't mean like what you think it means, I mean, it really doesn't mean that. But they read that in. Egalitarians, we have a head of our house 

Sheila

Yes.

Keith

It’s Jesus.

Sheila

Yeah.

Keith

It's not me. Like you and I both fall after Jesus. He's the head of our home. And so it makes me so mad when these complementarian people say that people who are egalitarians don't follow Jesus. It's like I follow Jesus. That's who I want to be in charge of our house. I want to submit to you because Ephesians 5:21 says submitting to each other, which they completely ignore.

Sheila

Yeah, right. Yeah.

Keith

It's just you know, and I'm sorry I get off topic, but

Sheila

But the other thing about, how we both follow Jesus is, in their minds, women actually get a demotion when they get married because a single woman is allowed to follow wholeheartedly after Jesus, but once she's married, she has to follow after her husband. So her relationship with Jesus fundamentally changes when she's married, whereas an egalitarian woman, it doesn't change at all. I'm still totally focused on Jesus, right? It's really, really weird.

Okay. Next one is that marriage is a beautiful picture of Christ in the church.

Keith

Oh yes.

Sheila

Yes okay.

Keith

Yeah. Their version. Yes. The leadership submission is a beautiful picture because I believe that marriage is a beautiful picture of God and the church, Paul uses the illustration.

Sheila

Yes.

Keith

But they, they're saying it in a way. That's not the way that I would say it.

Sheila

Yeah.

Keith

It’s a euphemism for something much more sinister.

Sheila

Yeah. Because here's what happens. Right. Like they'll like if I say, if I say referring to the Ephesians five passage, that head doesn't mean authority. They're like the Greek word for head, that doesn't have a connotation of authority. It's more like a source, like the beginning, like taking initiative, which I think is what men are to do. 

Because women are weaker. Men have to lay down their privilege and take initiative to, to help women. Kind of like that's what it's all about, right? To work together. Yes. But if I say head doesn't mean authority, they say, oh, so you're saying Jesus isn’t in authority over the church, right? Because they take Ephesians five and they see in every way that Jesus is to the church, husbands are to wives.

Keith

They don't say that.

Sheila

No, but, but, in these conversations.

Keith

Because if they said that, everyone would go, wait a minute, because Jesus was sinless and my husband's not sinless. Yeah, Jesus was all powerful, my husband is not all powerful.

Sheila

Jesus saves you. My husband is not my savior. Yeah, they do sound like they do. But yeah.

Keith

So if they said it in bold terms like that, it would be obvious that that's theologically correct, right? The euphemism I'm saying is that it's a beautiful picture of Christ in the church, so that the situation they can bring the submission of the wife in and say, it's just like the church submits to Christ.

Sheila

Yeah. Yeah. But the husband isn't Jesus. And that's and that's really important.

Keith

And actually a funny thing is if you think about it actually to this because they say that the husband is supposed to be a servant leader and the wife is supposed to be a submitter. And yeah, and the biggest problem today according to them, is that women are not submitting enough.

Sheila

Right.

Keith

And there's tons and tons of stuff about women not submitting. I do not hear a lot of sermons about men not being servant enough in their leadership. All I hear is men not leading enough. Like that's all I hear. I don't hear men need to be more serving. Yeah. I don't ever hear that. Maybe I'm missing something but that's the case.

But I hear a lot of women being bashed about not being submissive enough. Well here's the deal. In the picture of Christ in the church. What is the most accurate representation of that though we are faithless he is faithful.

Sheila

Yeah. Right.

Keith

Jesus is always faithful no matter what we do, when we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

That's the image. So if you really believe that in this world it's rampant with women not submitting properly.

Sheila

Yeah.

Keith

Your response should be to tell them and to serve more. Because that would be the most accurate picture of Jesus in the church.

Sheila

Yeah. Yeah.

Keith

No. It’s not about reflecting Jesus in the church. It's about keeping women where they want them.

Sheila

Yeah.

Keith

And using whatever Bible passages and theoretical ideas they can to get that to happen. And again I don't think they sit down and go, how can we subjugate women this week in twirling their mustaches? I don't think that's happening. I think it's because historically, men have been in charge of women. Right? Like it was only 50 years for women to have their own bank accounts.

Sheila

Yeah, right. Yeah.

Keith

And so they're looking back. And that's in my lifetime. Right? Yeah. So they're looking back to this other time which feels comfortable. And, and that's the way things have been. And I'm nervous about, you know, giving women more power in the church because of what will happen. Will the church change and they’re nervous about those things. They want to keep things the same. But you're, you're hurting people by doing that. You're hurting.

And when you start masking things and saying it's a beautiful picture when a woman submits herself to an abusive husband.

Sheila

Yes.

Keith

You're lying. Don't say that. That's wrong. So stop using these euphemisms to say it for what it is, which isn't that people go yeah I know that's not what we should do. We need to find another way to do this that is healthier.

Sheila

Yep yep yep, Okay. And here's the final one. All right? His headship is for your protection.

Keith

Right?

Sheila

Right. So, the reason that he has been given this headship is so that he can protect you women. And that's what it means. But when you actually break it down, what does, what are they actually saying? 

Keith

Well, there's two things there.

And I think the first thing is, is in the physical realm. And then there's the spiritual realm. I think that, I think there's two levels to that. So in the physical realm, men are bigger and stronger. So he's supposed to protect you?

But then the thing is, what about the husbands who hurt their wives? Yeah, right. Or men who hurt women in general? Like the sexual abuse yeah standard.

Sheila

Lots of people ask me how they can support what we're doing in changing the evangelical conversation about sex and marriage, and I want to give you two quick ways. One is our patreon group that we pretty much always mentioned on this podcast, but the other for people who have a little bit more money they want to invest or some money that God has said, hey, I want you to use this to seed the kingdom.

The Good Fruit Faith initiative of the Bosco Foundation supports what we do. And when you donate money through the Good Fruit Faith initiative, it helps us do things like write more academic papers, create podcast series that we're hopefully going to be launching next year. Gets our work into other languages and more

Rebecca

And if you live in the United States of America, you will also get a tax deductible receipt for your charitable giving.

Sheila

So please take a look at, join us. We're specially looking for monthly donors who can give even as little as $10 a month. Do you realize that if everybody on our newsletter list gave $10 a month, we would be making $450,000 a month?

Rebecca

That's wild. Oh my word. Focus on the family would be quaking. 

Sheila

Exactly. So please, will you give us some money and help us do what we do on a bigger basis.

Yeah. Because if this was true, if men being in authority of women actually protected women, we would see less abuse in marriages that practiced hierarchy and more abuse in marriages that didn't. We do not. We see the opposite. There was more abuse in hierarchical marriages than there is in egalitarian marriages. Putting men in hierarchy over women does not protect women. 

It makes them more vulnerable and it harms them. And it's just crazy to even argue this. Like the stats are so astronomically on one side for this. And and you'll see it the more patriarchal society gets, the more of this abuse of women.

Keith

Yeah, the more dangerous for women. Again, it's like his headship is for your protection, right? It's a euphemism, right? I mean, basically, it's what kind of protection we're talking about here. Yeah. I mean, this is like this, you know, nice life you have over here, it would be a shame if something happened.

Sheila

Yeah, I know that some sounds like. Yeah, yeah. It's like.

Keith

Put me in charge or else it's not gonna be good for you.

Sheila

You. Yeah. I mean.

Keith

That's like, I don't think that they really mean that, but it's like, how is it for your protection? Yeah. How is that better for your protection than saying, men and women both have equal value and their voices should both be heard. That is more protective.

Sheila

Yep. Right.

Keith

Yep. And then the spiritual thing is so incredibly fraught with theological problems. Yeah. It's the whole umbrella thing.

Sheila

Umbrella. Yeah I remember the umbrella that Gothard had which makes no sense because like it had the umbrella for God and or Jesus and then the husband and then the wife and the kids. And it's like, if God's umbrella worked, why do you need any other umbrellas, is like, why is there rain following? It's like, it makes no sense.

Keith

Because I have heard people in these circles say, like, you talk about the woman, who gets married, has a demotion thing. You said, well, no, no, no, no, before she's married, she's under her husband, no, her father’s authority.  So, all women need a head, right?  To protect them. 

It's your dad until you get married, then it's your husband. Yeah, and that's the spiritual. And I happens, say it's in the spiritual realm, right? Right.

Like you're vulnerable if you're not under your head. So you, by standing up for yourself and having your own opinions and not fully submitting to your husband, you're now opening yourself to satanic attack. 

Sheila

right? Right.

Keith

But what does that mean? So here we are in a situation. You and I are husband and wife, and you feel very strongly that God wants us to do X and I feel strongly that God wants us to do y. And you really, really feel what God wants you to do. But I'm saying y and they're saying that if you don't knuckle under and submit and do y with me, that you're going to be attacked spiritually.

Sheila

Right.

Keith

Think about that. Like what if you're right, what if the woman is right in that situation we should be doing the things she wants. Right. You're saying it doesn't matter. Satan's gonna be able to get at her because she didn’t submit to her husband. So no matter what the issue is, the submission of the husband is the most important thing of all.

Sheila

Yeah. Yeah. It's not doing God's will.

Keith

And you will open yourself to satanic attack. Trying to follow the will of God as best as you can discern through the Holy Spirit.

Sheila

Yeah.

Keith

Do we really believe that? Yeah. It's insane. It is insane.

Sheila

Yeah. No. And then they're saying that women's spiritual protection comes from their husbands. It doesn't come from the blood of Jesus. Yeah. It doesn't come from the fact that she's indwelt with the Holy Spirit. You know, it doesn't come from God. Her spiritual protection comes from her husband and yeah, it's just so, so somehow she is not as fully saved as her husband is then, because his spiritual protection, he just has spiritual protection already.

He's higher up. So he has more protection from Jesus than she does. And so if you know, her spiritual protection does not, does not come from God, it comes from her husband. So she does have in that in that whole belief, she has a mediator between her and God, which Paul expressly wrote in Timothy, that that is simply isn't true. None of us have mediators. Yeah.

Keith

And it's so unnecessary. So are there, are there more.

Sheila

Okay. Just really quick, I just want to read this, this whole idea that women are protected when men are over. I don't, I don't know if everyone realizes how much in evangelicalism women are told to submit to abuse. Yes. And abuse. I just want to read something. An excerpt from Debbie Pearl's book, Created to be His Helpmate. 

She says you will surely wonder why is it the will of God for the underling to suffer at the hands of unjust and perverse authority? Two reasons are obvious, one of which we have already stated. First, the chain of authority must remain intact, even to the point of allowing some abuse. And the other reason is introduced in verse 20, to the glory of God.

And she goes on to say, how being abused brings about the glory of God because you're suffering. So again, the emphasis here is that the chain of command stays, that that is the important thing. They don't come out and say this, right, like you're not going to hear a pastor say that. I mean, yeah, Debbie Pearl says it in her book, but she's a wacko.

Keith

But say you believe like that, right? You don't believe that. We believe this. Insert euphemism here 

Sheila

Yeah, right.

Keith

Yeah, but it's like that euphemism is hiding that. That is where these thought processes all naturally lead.

Sheila

Yeah, yeah. Because if you see it as a, as this, as this authority of protection, then that is where it naturally leads. Yeah. And because they're not. Yeah. That is just where it leads okay. And then finally, just finally people will say that, you know, you both can't be leaders or you have a two headed monster. And Emerson Eggerichs said this in Love and Respect. You know, how it just simply is is impossible to have two leaders think together.

Keith

That's called dysphemism.

Sheila

Yeah.

Keith

Because, euphemism makes things sound nicer. Yeah. So it's when you make something sound worse it’s a dysphemism

Sheila

Right.

Keith

So what they're saying is that the idea of two people, living in full equality, trying to run a household together under God.

Sheila

Yes.

Keith

Is a two headed monster. Yeah. Like that's insane.

Sheila

Yeah. Because you know what? And this is what I really want people to hear. The vast majority of Christians do that. The vast. But even those who believe in complementarianism, they don't practice it. The vast majority of Christians function as equals as they do really well when they do that. It is only when you put the doctrine of complementarianism into practice that we see things going really badly.

So there are a lot of people preaching complementarianism who actually act out egalitarianism, and they do really well. And so here's our plea. Okay. Why are you acting on a doctrine that harms people? Why are you trying to give this great PR for complementarianism? See, it doesn't mean that she gets rich, if she doesn't use her brain. 

It doesn't mean that, she just obeys him in everything. No, it's for her protection, you know? It's it's. He bears such a burden. Like we're using all of these words to make it sound so pretty. When at the end. What they're really saying is that she follows her husband, not Jesus. And that Jesus’ will is subordinate to the husband. And the husband gets what he wants. And that's not of Christ people. It is not of Christ.

You can use all the pretty words you want, but it isn't of Christ, really isn't. And you know, I, I wanted to do this podcast because I've been asked so many times to just do one podcast that goes over everything to do with complementarianism, so that they can send that they can give it to their husbands to listen to.

So, you know, if you've wanted your spouse to just understand what we're trying to say, then maybe you can give them this one podcast, too. We will link to some of the other ones, we've talked about different aspects of this, and our one on the Danver statement was really good as well.

Keith

Because I think that a lot of men are trying to obey God as best as they understand, and they feel that, yeah, leadership is God's command to them, right? Right. They want to be like these deadbeats who don't participate in their marriage. Yeah, they're good men. Yeah, but that is not like Paul was talking to a time period where women had no rights. 

Sheila

Yeah.

Keith

And he said, submit to each other in love, wives to your husbands. Because it's like, duh. That's what was happening back then. So to use that verse to put women back to ancient Rome right. It's a misuse of that verse. Yeah.

Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. Wives to your husbands. So the husband and wife are supposed to submit to each other? Yes. You as a man, bring your leadership skills and she brings her leadership skills too. She’s an Azarcanairdo, a help in the sense of strong help. Yeah. The way that God is a help equivalent to you.

Yeah, that is perfectly biblical.  And you can be a good, godly man. And using all your skills, leadership abilities in your marriage with your equal wife, using all of her skills and abilities and intelligence and strength, and the two of you together are seeking to follow Jesus. That is what Paul was talking about. The reason Paul said wives submit to your husbands. And then it goes on for like eight verses. I can’t remember how many verses

Sheila

Yeah.

Keith

Telling men, is because in that time period, men were in authority over women Bible like defacto. And he was saying, that's not the way Christians are supposed to be. Yeah. Societally over your women put yourselves lower.

And what we have today is people using the same verses in a, in a place where men are supposed to be equal to say, men, put yourselves over. That is the exact opposite of what Paul was trying to do.

Sheila

Yeah, yeah. And.

Keith

Anyway, if you're one of those guys that is not convinced and you still think a bunch of us, you know, egalitarian guys are wimps. You know, we don't make decisions. Listen, I, I'm a physician, okay? I spent most of my life doing acute care Pediatrics. Yeah. Have you guys seen The Pit? Okay.

Sheila

Yeah. Great show, great show.

Keith

That's my job, that’s my job like life and death decisions in a moment. I don't have a problem making decisions. I don't have a problem showing leadership. And the reason I don't feel that I'm the leader in a relationship is because I don't feel that's healthy. And I don't think that's what God calls for us. Sheila has skills too and I want all of those forward. And so that, to me, is the best way to follow Jesus and His commands. And I think it's a perversion to say that the man is the leader and the wife is the servant. Yeah, men are supposed to serve too not be servant leaders. They're supposed to serve. That's what Jesus commanded us to do.

Sheila

Yeah. Okay. And that's how you get good marriages. So if you want to see what this looks like,lived out in your marriage, please take a look at our new book, The Marriage You Want. It goes through all of the different stats on how to get a marriage that's actually fulfilling, that you love what you feel close and known and intimate, and your sex life is great and all that wonderful stuff.

The charts are so much fun that there's a curriculum that goes along with it. There's a study guide, there is a video series so that you can go through it in your church. And let's change the conversation, people. Let's show that there's a different way to do marriage that is not about hierarchy, but is instead about living out Jesus in your everyday life.

It's a beautiful picture. It really works. So check out The Marriage You Want. Check out our curriculum too. And thank you for joining us in the Bare Marriage Podcast. Thank you for listening to this conversation. I hope it helped you. And I will try to remember to put all the things we noted in the podcast notes, too. 

Okay. See you again soon. Bye bye.