Episode 308: “We Respond to Crazy Pastor Clips” Pallooza!

Keith and I went through 10 clips from evangelical influencers and pastors that have been driving people crazy all year. We break down why Josh Howerton's claims about conservative mental health don't hold up, why blaming women for divorce is absurd, and how complementarian teaching about male authority actually contradicts what Jesus taught.

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CHECK OUT THE RESOURCES MENTIONED:

• The Whole Story puberty course
• The Marriage You Want
• Our Great Sex Rescue Toolkit to respond to pastors and friends

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LINKS MENTIONED: 

• 2025 study on conservativism & mental health
• The 2015 study on conservatives and happiness
• The 2021 study on women's health in sexist churches
• Our study on women's sexual health in conservative spaces
• Our podcast on why women seek divorce
• Report on Child Marriage in the US 
• Report on Child Marriage in Canada 
• Our article responding to Josh Howerton's claims that evan

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 3:30 Josh Howerton on Mental Health Vs. What The Research Showsal Health Vs. What The Research Shows
• 16:15 Turning Point USA On How Modesty Reduces Women to Sexual Objects and Then Blames Them For It
• 23:00 Mark Driscoll on Why Women Need to Prioritize Husband Over Kids
• 27:20 Jana Howerton Thinks Women Were Created Just to Nurture their Husbands and Children?
• 32:04 Pastors Josh McPherson & John Lovell Speaking About Women Sound Eerily Similar To Incels
• 35:36 Josh & Jana Howerton Talk About Why They Think Women File for Divorce
• 39:46 Josh Howerton’s Terrible Take on Therapy
• 45:51 Rachel Jancovic On Why So Many Women Struggle With Feeling Unsupported By Their Husbands
• 50:11 Josh Howerton Uses Fundamentalist Islam to Attack Women (Spoiler: Fundamentalist Christianity Is Just As Harmful)
• 1:02:47 John Lovell Is The Authority In His Marriage - But the Bible Never Tells Him To Take That Role
• 1:13:50 Christmas, Incarnation & What Faith in Jesus Really Means

Transcript

Sheila
Welcome to the Bare Marriage podcast. I'm Sheila Wray Gregoire from BareMarriage.com where we like to talk about healthy, evidence based biblical advice for your sex life and your marriage. And I am joined today by my husband, Keith. 
Keith
Hey everybody 
Sheila
And we thought we'd get more comfortable. So for those of you watching on YouTube, we are sitting on a more comfortable couch than our usual place because we're going to have fun today.
Well, I don't know. I'm going to put you on the spot, but I have 11 different clips that have all been pulled from our Patreon group. And we're just going to I'm just going to get you to react to them and we will talk through them. So one of the things we do on our wonderful Patreon group is every Tuesday we have Terrible Tuesdays where people get to share their awful clips.
And that's where I get a lot of my stuff, actually. It's really, it's really quite helpful. And, I just wanted to walk through these today. I chose these ones because they encapsulate the kinds of things that we hear all the time from the pulpit or from podcasts or from influencers that we know just aren't quite right.
But we can't put our finger on it. I mean, some of them are more obviously wrong.
Keith
But unfortunately, some people are being persuaded that this is true Christianity. Exactly. So clearly not in line with the heart of Jesus and what the scriptures say. Yeah.
Sheila
And so I just thought, as we're ending up the year, you know, we could do a faster paced podcast that I think is going to help a lot of you guys. Really. It's going to resonate because you guys are going to say. Yeah, like, I. Knew that was wrong, but I couldn't figure out why. And so thank you. So here we go. Here we go. And before we get started on the clips, I just want to say to you that in December, this is really crunch time for us. Because this podcast, the blog, my social media channels, all of those are wonderfully funded by all of you wonderful people who buy our courses, who buy our books.
Who do sponsorships on our podcast, etc.. And so that, that funds that and that's wonderful. But for us to reach outside of this podcast and reach people who haven't heard of us yet, we need some help with that. And so we are raising money right now. We have a budget of $94,000. So that's less than 1% of Focus on the Family okay, that we want for next year.
So that we can keep writing academic papers so that we have several podcasts, docu-series that are ready that we're working on. One of them is going to be ready to go in February on Love and Respect. I'm so excited about it. We are working on translations. We've got a translation coming in Spanish in February, but we want to keep that momentum going and get more. We wanted to, we want to translate some of our podcast series into Spanish. We want to get some Swahili stuff, some Armenian stuff, like just a bunch of things going. And so if you can help us, we would appreciate it. There's links in the podcast notes to how you can donate within the US. You can get tax deductible receipts through the Good Fruit Faith initiative of the Bosko Foundation.
We're really looking for monthly donors because the more monthly donors we have, then we don't have to keep asking for money, and we can set our budgets much easier. And if you're outside the US, you can also join our Patreon group, which is super fun and you'll hear more about them in this podcast. So just a little plug.
We really appreciate all of you who are coming on board, because I know you guys love our stuff, but if you want other people to hear it, then that helps us spread the word. Okay. All right, babe, here we go. Clip number one, our good friend Josh Howerton. And a lot of these are Josh Howerton. Because, quite frankly, he shares a lot of stuff on social media and people keep sending them to me.
So here is the first one, as he is talking about mental health.
Josh
Women self-report more mental health problems than men. By like a massive factor. But there is such a stark difference between people who identify as conservative and people who identify as progressive in mental health, that young female people who identify as conservative report having less mental health problems than men who identify as progressive. So the charts look like this
So there are reasons for that. They're ideological. Yeah. Well, it's because life is best when you live in line with God's design.
Sheila
All right. So what's the first thing you noticed there? 
Keith
A lot of things asserted. Yes, that was not backed up by any evidence whatsoever. Yes. I didn't say where it got the information from. No citation required.
Sheila
Citation required. Yeah. And this little clip came in the middle of a longer podcast where he is posting a lot of different studies, and some of them are more nuanced than he's letting on. But, but whatever.
Keith
Because that's the thing is, these studies if you had the actual study. Yes. Like you go back and read and you're like, they did not say that.
They twist these things all the time.
Sheila
Yeah. You know, Donald Rumsfeld, who was the defense secretary under George W Bush. And don't worry, what I'm going to say is not political. Okay? But he had said this one thing that he got really lambasted for that I actually think was true. He said, there's things that there's no known, there's known unknowns and there's unknown unknowns, like there's things that you know that you don't know.
Keith
Yes.
Sheila
So but then there's things that you don't know, that you don't realize you don't know. And, and what you don't want is to have too many of those things. And I get the impression that Josh Howerton really thinks that he's a known person. Like he thinks he knows everything.
Keith
Yeah. Everything, And the whole group of them is like that. Yeah, everything is 100% true. Don't doubt it. There's nothing that's unknown. There's no nuance. We have all the answers.
Sheila
And it's like, buddy, you don't realize what you don't know. It's like the Dunning-Kruger effect. Do you want to explain that? I think that's really funny
Keith
So the Dunning-Krueger effect, basically, is that the people who are the, the least likely to understand what they don't know are the people more likely to spout things
Sheila
Yeah, exactly.
Keith
So basically, the more you know about a topic, the more you realize how much there is that you still don't understand. Yeah, right. And it's sort of a built-in humility the more you learn about something. When you know, when you know nothing and you know, you know nothing, you, you don't say much. Yeah.
When you learn a little bit, but you don’t know how little you know. That's the dangerous point, right. That's where these people live. Yes. They don't know how much they don't know.
Sheila
Exactly. Okay. So here's what I did.
Keith
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. That's an old proverb. And that's what it's talking about.
Sheila
Yeah. So we actually got talking about this clip in our Patreon group, and you brought up two different studies.
Keith
Yeah. Because the whole idea is that conservatives have better mental health than liberals. And it's just like they just spout that there's no question about why would that be? Yeah. Right. Because the point is not to understand. The point is to use propaganda to say we're right, they're wrong. Yes. Right. And I think as Christians, we shouldn't be, like, one sided.
Like, I think we should be, like Christians should be critiquing the entire political spectrum. Yes. Yes. Christians should be outside of it all. Like, yes. Having things to say to both sides. Right. But, the thing is that they will just want to make you believe like they do. So we're right and here's more of it is that we're right.
Yeah. And so they don't ask. Well why would that be. Yeah. Right. Because if you actually ask why you would it would be people have done studies to find out why it would. Yeah. And one of the chief reasons is people who tend to be on the conservative side of the spectrum. Tend to have a stigma about saying they have mental health issues.
Yeah. So if you say you suffer from depression they'll say heck no. Right. I mean you give them a depression inventory and they're off of the charts. Yeah. They will not admit to being depressed, although they're depressed. Yeah. I’m simplifying it.
Sheila
But here. Well, let's look at the actual studies. Okay. So you posted this one from April 2025, right. Okay. And the title of it is Do conservatives really have better mental well-being than liberals? Yes. And I will put links to all these studies in the podcast notes.
Keith
Yes because we give the citations.
Sheila
Don't worry. Yeah. And yeah. And here's I'm just going to give you I'm just going to just broadly here's what they found.
Okay. First of all, conservatives are more likely to be religious and they're more likely to be married.
Keith
Right.
Sheila
And both of those things tend to lead to better mental health. All right.
Keith
So that's called a confounding factor. Yeah. So it's like it's not the conservativeness. Is that because you're conservative you're more likely to have everything?  There's other things that make you healthy. Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Sheila
And so if you control for that. Yeah. Then that gets rid of 40% of the gap.
Keith
I thought it was about 60%. Yeah. It was a lot. Okay.
Sheila
I have to yeah.
Keith
Half slightly more or slightly less. It's somewhere around there. Yeah.
Because of confounding.
Sheila
Factors. Yeah.
Rebecca
You know, it doesn't sound fun to a lot of parents. What, telling their kids about sex. I mean, I know it wasn't fun for you when I was growing up.
Sheila
I did a terrible job.
Rebecca
You did a terrible job. And the good news for you all is that she did a terrible job. And so that made us want to do a better job for the next generation.
So together, we have created a course called the Whole Story, which is a course that walks you as the parents through having these talks with your kids, both boys and girls. And we've created two different versions for each gender, a young and an older version. So like the younger version, is that that really awkward age, you know, the one where you're in puberty in the middle of junior high?
Sheila
Yeah. You're starting to get your period. You need a bra or
Rebecca
You're starting to have wet dreams. And then the older one we put in, because often what happens is we have these conversations once and then we don't have them again. So we also created a program for you when your kids are more in high school, where you can have the nitty gritty conversations, get into those difficult topics and really connect.
So that's not just giving them a book and hoping that they understand, but you're having the ability to shepherd them in this stage of their life. The videos are recorded by me and my sister for the girls and by my husband Connor, and a man named Daniel Barrows, who is a Christian medical student for the boys.
Sheila
And you can find the link to the Whole story in the podcast notes below. You don't need to be scared. We're here to help.
Sheila
And I do want to put a pin in this though, because, we actually believe that, like, this is a big part of our book. The Marriage You Want to, is that being married is a good thing. Okay. Having faith, being religious is a good thing. These are all good things. Okay. And so, like.
Like, this is why we want healthy marriages, right? Like, healthy marriages are good. The problem is the marriages that Josh Howerton is talking about, like, all the marriage advice he gives and the marriage advice that all these other people in the evangelical world are giving are actually not contributing to good marriages. So it's not that we're against marriage. We're just against the kind of marriage they're calling for, because it doesn't lead to the kind of happiness that we want to see. You know, because, yeah, marriage does make people happier.
Keith
Overall, marriage makes you happier. Therefore, you should do marriage exactly the way that I want you to do it. Because that will make you happier.
Sheila
Yeah.
Keith
Yeah you see how there is a disconnect there, it’s not necessarily the case.
Okay. So then that was the first thing, the confounding factors.
Sheila
The other thing we found is that and this is what you were just saying when you ask about mood rather than mental health, and when you do those sorts of inventories, then the discrepancy pretty much goes away.
Keith
Yeah. Yeah. Because it's like in the Patreon group, people are saying things like, well, if you're being taught that Christians don't have mental health problems from the cradle. Yeah. Then when you get a survey asking, do you have mental health problems? It's like, no, I'm a good Christian, I don't have mental health problems
Sheila
Yeah, exactly.
Keith
So that's the problem is it's a self-fulfilling thing, right. So yeah. So that's the first thing. The second thing is, is that, you know, there's actually another study that I said that was called. Yeah, that conservatives report. But liberals display greater happiness.
Sheila
Yes. This is from March of 2015. Yeah.
Keith
So when you, when you say are you generally happy. Yeah. Then the conservative people tend to say yes I'm happy. And then, but then when you look at markers of how often they smile and all these other kinds of things, it's like the other side of the political spectrum showing it more. Yeah. Saying less that they're happy. Yes.
Right. Yeah. And this is kind of funny. This reminded me of this study. This study you did, which.
Sheila
No, wait. You can't say that. I know, I know, because I'm about to bring it up.
Keith
Hold on. Okay. Yes.
Sheila
Okay, so I pulled two other studies. Okay. Okay. Okay, so you pull two, I pulled two. The first one is from 2021. An amazing study. I think we have cited this so many times in our books since this came out. By Holman at all. When religion hurts structural sexism and health and religious congregations. And we've talked about this one before.
But basically, again, religiosity leads to better health. Okay. Leads to better mental health and better health. And that's what this survey is looking at, too. Unless you are a woman in a religious environment, that is sexist. Right. Okay. So she's agreeing, like she's agreeing. Yes, religiosity is good for you, but. And here I just want to read you from the abstract here.
Although religious participation is generally associated with positive health outcomes, many religious institutions create and reinforce a high degree of structural sexism, which is harmful for health. We found that among religious participants, women who attend sexist, religious institutions. So those are churches where women are not allowed to be in leadership in any way. Report significantly worse self related health than those who attend more inclusive congregations.
Furthermore, only women who attend inclusive religious institutions exhibit a health advantage relative to non participants.
So it's like, yes, conservative religious women do better, but only if you're going to inclusive religious communities right
Keith
Yeah. But there is a spectrum.
Sheila
But the benefits were there for men.
Keith
Yes. All the way along.
Sheila
All the way along. It's only women who are worse off.
Keith
If you're in an environment where you're told that you're less than. And told that you're not really less than, you're just less than. But you're not less than. Yes. And you have to work with that your whole life. Yes. And no wonder you don't feel happy and have good mental health.
Sheila
Yeah. And then final study. This one is called Sanctified Sexism. Effects of Purity Culture Tropes on White Christian, Women's Marital and Sexual Satisfaction, and Experience of Sexual Pain from Sociology of Religion in 2024 and written by.
Keith
Who wrote that one?
Sheila
Yes, you were on it. I was on it. Joanna and Rebecca were on it. And what we were showing again was that when women are in certain church groups where they're taught purity culture tropes, our experience of sexual pain and, and sexuality in general is worse. So it's like Josh Howerton just saying, look, conservatives are better than progressives.
You shouldn't be bragging about that when it's your religious women who are doing worse. It's. And he has a habit of doing this. I'll put a link to an article I wrote, where Josh Howerton made this huge threat in social media a couple of years ago, claiming that people who believe just like him have better outcomes.
And it's like, no, Josh, it's actually the opposite. It's religious people who don't believe like you, who do better, religious people that do believe like you do worse. And it's like he's claiming he's claiming success for his group based on stats that aren't based on his group. And this is the problem when you actually break it down to his group, they don't do as well.
Keith
Yeah. Again, and its issues of objective versus subjective report too. Because, because women in these conservative spaces where they're not allowed to have agency, where they're told their husband is over them in authority, over. Yeah. They report happy marriages. Yeah. Right. Because they've been told their whole lives. Your role as a wife is to create a happy home for your family.
And that's their identity. Yeah. So when you ask them, do you have a happy, you know, marriage and family life, they say, yes, yes I do. Yeah. And then you look at them and they have lower orgasm rates. And they have them, they report less being able to speak to their husband about sensitive issues. And there's not all these other things.
And they have an objectively less satisfying marriage. Like what most people would call a less satisfying marriage. Yeah, but they report off the charts how happy they are. Because they're told what they have to do.
Sheila
Yeah. And that's what we found too, is that when you look at objective measures instead of subjective measures, women who believe as Josh Howerton does, that men are in authority over them do far worse.
Keith
Yeah. And we should stop talking about conservative people. Just talk about what's healthy. Yeah. Yeah. There's something right. We should go for it. If the progressives get something right, we should go for it. Yeah. What's right?
Sheila
What's healthy is right.
Keith
And that's what bothers me because. Yeah, the two tribes. Yeah.
Sheila
Because, you know, the conservatives are right that religiosity and marriage are good for you. The progressives are right that justice and equal rights matter. And it's like, can't we just see them both together? Okay. I want to do this next ,the next clip. All right. So this is from Turning Point USA okay. And this and he's talking. He is addressing college aged women saying it's your fault.
So let's listen in.
Josh
It's your fault. You should be ashamed of yourself. If you call yourself a Christian and you're doing stuff like that. I am sick of bikinis and Bible verses on social media. That is Jezebel behavior. That's Jezebel. You're not sharing the Bible or the gospel with anyone. You're sharing your butt or your chest. And then you wonder why guys want you for your body only. You wonder why every guy's attracted to one thing. You know why? Because you gave him a taste online and now he wants the real thing. It's your fault. You should be ashamed of yourself. If you call yourself a Christian and you're doing stuff like that. Modest is the hottest, believe it or not. Any good Christian man, any self-respecting man, does not want you.
I'll just say it. You got to get real with yourself. Are you part of the problem? Are you worthy to sit across from a respectable young man, a God fearing man?
Sheila
All right. Can I read you the caption that accompanied this? Okay. So he said men are the leaders of the country and the home, but we're not to blame for everything. Women, are you using your.
Keith
Apparently, they are to blame for nothing! From what I just heard
Sheila
Well, I just hear women. Are you using your body to try to lead a man into sinning with you? Or are you desiring a godly man to lead you?
Keith
Yeah. That's crazy. I know. The whole thing is just horrific
Sheila
Yes. I love all the false dichotomy that they're setting up here, but women are using your body to try to lead a man into sinning with you? So can we. Can anyone say rape myths?
Such a rape myth. But let's break down a couple of things you said. Every guy is attracted to one thing.
Keith
Right? He says, why do you think it is that they are? And that's your fault too women. Yeah. Yeah. So it's your fault for my taste.
So now of course he's going to go there.
Sheila
It reminds me of okay. You know the other guy. The tuna versus lion.
We have a taste for lions, okay. Obscure obscure quote. Someone will understand that and put it in the. Yeah but but like yeah like why do men think this way. Because you told them that the only thing women are good for.
Keith
Yes. This whole thing is supposed to be men are supposed to lead, and women are supposed to want to follow them. Yeah. Right. Like, it's like the guy is in charge and she's supposed to come along and help him. And that's her only role to add on to him and make his life better. He leads her and guides her.
She’s something he controls, like, his house, his car, his everything. Yeah. Like, I know that he was like, People say, oh, I don't really believe that. That's the way they talk. Like women are an accessory. Yeah. For these men. And then guess what? They get treated like objects. Yeah. You've taught men to treat women like objects. Yeah. If you taught men that women were your equal partner in every way.
Sheila
And that their minds mattered, not just.
Keith
Yeah, that they were your equal partner in every way, you could not make them an object because they're your equal. Yeah. This mentality of men being over women is what generates men who think women are only there for one thing. It's for whatever thing I want. Maybe it's to be a maid. It's not always sex, right. You know. But that's what it is. Women are there to be used. You're teaching that and then you're blaming the women. Yeah. It's hideous. Yeah.
Sheila
And I love the whole thing about how modest is the hottest.
Keith
Yeah. Exactly. Because they don't try and. Oh, sorry, I know you go ahead.
Sheila
Well, you know, and it's like, okay, so she's not allowed to try on the bikini. She's supposed to, but she is allowed to attract you.
Keith
She's supposed to.
Sheila
She's supposed to be hot.
Keith
Well, this is the idea that. Yeah, being hot is good modesty. Yeah. Yeah. Like. So we don't want you sexually aroused men because you're bikinis. But we do want you to arouse in other ways. Right? Right. Because they would ultimately believe the one thing. Yeah. Like they believe it. And that's why women have picked up on it and they believe it too. It's not because. So they're saying.
Sheila
Okay, I want to comment too on the fact that it's like the Jezebel thing. Okay. I want to and this gets thrown around so much. Women are called Jezebel. So, and Jezebel, he just said Jezebel. Often people also say Jezebel spirit. But there is no Jezebel spirit in the Bible. Okay. It just isn't there.
Jezebel is mentioned. Of course she's a real person. In the Old Testament. And she's mentioned again in revelation two. And I want to read to you what it says about Jezebel in Revelation. I have this against you. You tolerate that woman, Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet and is teaching and beguiling my servants to practice fornication and to eat food sacrificed to idols.
I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her fornication. Okay, so what are the things that she is doing?
Keith
She's enticing other people to fornicate and eat food sacrificed to idols. Right.
Sheila
And she calls herself a prophet and is teaching, right?
Keith
I was talking about Jezebel in these sexual terms, right? Yeah. The fornication part.
Sheila
Right. Okay. Now, do you know what it says just a few verses earlier in that same chapter? Yeah. Can I read this to you?
Keith
Okay.
Sheila
Verse 14 of the same chapter to a different church. This is the church at Pergamum. Jezebel went to the church at Thyatira. So to Pergamum. I have a few things against you. You have some there who called to the teaching of Balam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the people of Israel, so they would eat food sacrificed to idols and practice fornication.
So what are the things that Balam did? He taught. He taught them to eat food sacrificed to idols, and he practiced fornication.
Keith
That's it.
Sheila
It is exactly the same thing.
Keith
I have this against you. Yes, and it's the exact same thing. The only difference is one is a man and the other one is a woman.
Sheila
But when have you ever heard of a man called Balam?
Keith
Yeah. Yeah.
Sheila
We don't do it. We only call women Jezebel. And so when people do that, when people call women a Jezebel, when they don't ever talk about Balam, that shows that this is not actually about the Bible or about Christianity or anything. It's just about hating women. Yeah. You know. Anyway, I just thought that was insulting. Speaking of that, there was another guy who talked about Jezebel.
He has a whole book on the Jezebel spirit. And last year, at The Stronger Men's Conference. Mark Driscoll, there was a guy who opened the Stronger Men's conference by doing the sword swallowing act, and he took off his shirt during it. And Mark Driscoll came up and said that he had the spirit of Jezebel because he reminded him of a stripper.
Sheila
So this. So even though no women were present and no women were involved in planning this conference, it was still the spirit of Jezebel that was at fault. You know. So anyway, I just thought that was interesting. So let's listen to Mark Driscoll on something different.
Mark
What happens is the wife puts all of her time and energy into it. Were the kids at the expense of the husband? And all of a sudden the law priority is violated. So the law of jealousy is triggered and jealousy is simply that somebody is in my place and it triggers in a man a sense of injustice. He was a priority.
And then the kids came, and now the kids are the priority. So the man starts to get jealous. What happens then is that the wife gets fully focused and devoted to the children, and the man gets a little embittered and frustrated, so that he pours all his energy into work. So now, for him, work is more important than marriage, and for her, kids are more important than marriage.
And this is where the pin is pulled on the grenade. And eventually this is all going to explode.
Sheila
Okay, We hear this a lot. Right? And I have a question about this. When he's saying that we've violated the law of priority. Yeah. What would it actually look like to prioritize your husband? Like, what is he actually talking about?
Keith
Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, it's pretty obvious. I think that means that it doesn't matter how many kids you have, the sex needs to keep flowing at the same rate as it always did. Yeah. Like that's that to me is what they are.
Sheila
Because they talk about, oh you need to prioritize your husband but they never explain what that means. Right. Like they never come out and actually say it.
Keith
That's the key one that I think is
Sheila
But, but, when you break it down, that is what they mean. Because you literally cannot spend as much time on your husband as your kids because your kids need you. They are children, right? They need to be fed. They need to have a bath. They need to get their homework done. Like, they need care because they're kids.
So there's no possible way that you can spend as much time on your husband as you do on your kids. There's no possible way that you could, that you could even spend as much energy on your husband as you do on your kids, because your kids are tiny. They rely on you. Right. And yet they're constantly guilting women for not prioritizing their husbands.
And when it comes down to it, what they really mean is he's not getting enough sex.
Keith
I think that's what they mean. Yeah.
Sheila
Well, remember that quote, that fixed a frame we did of Gary Thomas. We talked about what he said in one of his books. How, when the baby cries in the middle of making love and she gets up to tend the baby, the power has now switched back to the wife. And the man has lost power again because the wife is caring more about the baby than she does about the husband.
And it's like, buddy, why are you so jealous of your baby? Or why don't you just get up. And get the baby? Like, why is she having to get up when the baby you got up when the babies were crying and they didn't need to eat. You got up with them? Yeah. Because if I got up with them, they would be like, give me a munch munch. But like, you would get up with them so that they wouldn't.
Keith
Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Like there's this little country song called The Other Day in Paradise I love it. And they're finally getting down to making love. And somebody has a bad dream and it's like okay I guess not tonight. Yeah. And that's what healthy guys are like. It's like yeah. What do you do? The kids are crying. Well, that's just being married and having kids.
Yeah. Maybe tomorrow we'll try again, right? Like, yeah, that's what healthy guys are like. This whole idea that you're the woman, and you're under me. You need to make sure that I get my needs met. That's disgusting. Yeah. Like, how can you see that as healthy masculinity.
Sheila
Well why is a father seeing a baby as a rival. This is what. This is what I find so insane. You know that a baby is not your rival. That baby is your child who needs you.
Keith
Well, I think the thing is, actually, because they're sitting up there like it's fair because he's. He's critiquing men and women. Right? Women. You ignore your husband for your family. Right. That's it. And the critique for the men is men. You ignore your family for your job. Yeah. Right. So it's like but they don't really get mad about that.
Yeah. Right. Like. Yeah like you need to go there and work. Yeah. Like. Yeah. A good Christian man is working all the time. Like so it's like it's not really a sin. Yeah. Yeah. You're doing that. Yeah. Right. And you can always even if you're a workaholic you can always say, well I'm just doing it for the family.
So therefore all that work time and all the neglect of your children and your wife is for their benefit. So I can still count it all as good. Yeah. It's just. It's crazy. Yeah.
Sheila
Okay. So. But what I find so interesting is that they keep telling women. Look, your main priority is your kids and family, but then they get really mad at women if they spend too much time on the person, that on the kids, it's like. So. So they'll give all these sermons about how women you were made to look after the kids.
And then when the women do, they're still wrong. Like, you literally cannot win. You literally cannot win. So here is Jana Howerton. Yeah. Okay. Talking about feminism and in context. Yeah, she's critiquing feminism. So just keep that in mind as you listen to this.
 Jana
It's a rejection of God's authority. His authority is getting replaced with whatever feels right or whatever culture tells him it's because they have allowed toxic empathy to change their lives, and that women were made to be nurturers. And so rather than using their nurturing abilities that God put in you, that is innate, that's God given a gift on what is holy and righteous, which is your focusing on your family, your husband, your kids.
It's kind of been hijacked. And the nurturing is you see how women will nurture these causes.
Sheila
All right.
Keith
So it's exactly what you said.
Sheila
Yeah. A woman. She's saying a woman was made to nurture her husband and her children.
Keith
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Nurtures. Hey. I don’t know if I want you to nurture me.
I know that sounds weird. Yeah.
Sheila
Like you want me to support you just as you support me. Yeah.
Keith
Yeah. Yeah. That's weird. Yeah.
Sheila
Nurture is. Is that. That is weird. But there's so many things I could say about this. Like, where is the evidence that men can't nurture?
Keith
Yeah. That’s what bugged me.
Sheila
That nurturing is a woman. That is a womanly thing. Yeah.
Keith
Yeah. Because there's a lot of very kind, nurturing men. And I like to listen to these people talk. It's like they think those men are unhealthy. Yeah. But they are like way healthier than Mark Driscoll
Sheila
I know. Like it's really bizarre. But also where is it in Scripture that says that a woman's main job is to nurture husband and kids?
Keith
Right, exactly. Where or where is it? The Scripture says that it's not manly to be nurturing. Yeah. Like Paul compares himself to like a mother. You know, like.
Sheila
Well so does Jesus.
Keith
Oh a mother hen. Yeah. Like, you know, like a, like a mother hen. I long to gather you.
Sheila
Yeah. It doesn't say Paul likes nursing or something. Like he compares himself to a nurse. Yeah.
Keith
But I didn’t put the nursing part in there. Okay, I could.
Sheila
Be wrong, but we both made the same mistake then. But. Yeah.
Keith
So yeah. So it's like nurturing is a good thing. Yeah. You know. But the problem is again it's this whole thing that men are supposed to be one thing. Women are another thing, right? And that's because this whole idea of like, men will be over women and all. Yeah. And all this gender dynamics and it trumps everything else, including reason, the rest of scripture, whatever. Because that's the agenda. It’s just so sad. 
Sheila
Well the thing is okay, nowhere in Scripture does it say that a woman's main job is to be a mom and a wife. Nowhere. In fact, in first Corinthians seven it says the opposite, that the best thing for you is if you can remain single.
Keith
Right.
Sheila
Right. So it's like, it's not that marriage is bad, but the highest calling is to serve Jesus.
Keith
The story of Mary and Martha, right? Yeah. So? So, you know, Mary's sitting at the feet of Jesus, but learning which she wasn’t supposed to do at that time. Right. And Martha's doing all the women's work. And she says that Jesus. Jesus, like Mary, sat and talked and told her to get up and do her women's work.
Yeah. Jesus says no, this is better. Yeah. Yeah. But Mark Driscoll says get in the kitchen, Mary.
Keith
Yeah.
Sheila
And so and this is what Jan Howerton is saying to like she says, this is what God made us for. But that is not in Scripture. There is not a single woman in the New Testament who is praised for doing stereotypical things. Yeah. Not a single woman. Instead, women are praised repeatedly for being co laborers in the gospel, for teaching men like Priscilla did.
For, being a benefactor and a teacher like Phoebe the Deaconess. Like all of these things, right? Like, women are constantly praised for the work that they did for Christ and for the ministry. And here they are, just erasing all of that. You know, like Christian women in the, the early church actually had more status than women in the evangelical church in the United States today.
It's just wild. It's just wild.
Keith
A lot of women do have really amazing homes and do really a lot of ministry to their kids and they raise wonderful children. And that's all great. And if you're if you feel called to be a stay at home mom and you have the ability to do that in your family.
Sheila
I love doing it.
Keith
That. You can't do that. Yeah. But God says that is his divine command that you do. Yeah.
Sheila
And that's the main purpose of your life. That is not in Scripture.
Keith
That's not adding to Scripture.
Sheila
Yeah. That is not in Scripture. Okay. All right. Speaking of, how we see feminism is bad. Let's listen. And this is on. Yes. This is on. Josh McPherson, who is a pastor who often talks with Josh Howerton. Here he is. Interesting here is, interviewing a man named John Lovell on the podcast. Okay. And so this is John Level with Josh McPherson
John Lovell
Feminism just makes women miserable. And the feminist is out there working for the man climbing this ladder, and she's going to wake up one day at 34 years old. Her good looks are gone, and she's really, really lonely. And all of a sudden she thinks maybe it would have been a good legacy to have a bunch of children.
You see a bunch of other kids there, and then you find some very malleable beta way below your class, and you marry them real quick, pop out a few kids and then try to beat him into shape before you finally divorce him after a few years because, well, it's all his fault. I'm like, no, you can't be lived with.
You're always right. You're always in charge. No one's going to tell you what to do. You're never saying you're sorry. You never take ownership for anything.
Josh McPherson
It's a wild phenomena. There's a Bible verse about that, right? A spiteful woman drives a man to the corner of a roof.
Keith
Oh my gosh. You know it's
Sheila
It's like let's play Is this incel or is this a pastor.
Keith
Yeah. It's a yeah. You know fundamentalist pastors or incel.
The rhetoric here. They didn’t even realize it. No.
Sheila
And Josh McPherson, the pastor, is approving of all of this, like, this is just there is nothing redeeming about any of this at all. It is. It is just being hateful towards women. I mean, even.
Keith
She hits 34. Her looks are gone and she is used up. That's it. Yeah. Like so it's like women are only there for one thing. The one thing is to look pretty. Yeah. That stops on your 34th birthday. Yeah. Like, this is hideous. Yeah. This is horrific. Yeah. These are daughters of the King. That's how these men talk about their sisters in Christ. It just breaks my heart. Yeah. It is insane.
Yeah. There's nothing to offer other than your looks. And though those are gone at 34. What about our mind? What about our heart for Jesus? What about our capacity to teach others about the Lord? What about all these other things that she could be doing? No, no, no. She needs to get to the kitchen and look pretty. Yeah. Makes me silly.
Sheila
Well, then they talk about how she marries this guy who's of lower status and. And the whole way that they're like, that whole talk about higher value versus lower value mates. Like, that's not biblical
Keith
That's Andrew Tate. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah. Absolutely. High value mates. They call.
Sheila
Them. Yeah. That's right.
Keith
Yeah. Yeah. That’s insane
Sheila
So when we have pastors who are approving of and spouting the same language as incels do, we have a real problem. And if you are in a church where your pastor does this, please leave that church and certainly don't give any money to it. Like, please leave it because we need these churches to shrink.
Keith
Yeah. And what person who follows the Lord Jesus would think that he, Jesus Christ, sees people as having different values. Yeah. That drives me crazy. Yeah. Like how could they not see how wrong this is? Yeah.
Sheila
I know. Okay. We got to move on.
Keith
That’s horrible I know, I mean, just, you know, these men make me so angry 
Sheila
Okay. So, Josh, we're going to go back to Josh Howerton, and they're talking about divorce here.
Keith
Okay.
Josh
More than 70% of divorces are initiated by women now.
Jana
That's crazy.
Josh
Men and women are equally sinful. But because they're created differently, because they got different curses of the fall and because they have different callings and designs, they're prone to different species of sin in general. For sure. I do feel like the friend thing can push women towards divorce and breaking marriage covenants in a way that it doesn't as often push men towards it.
Agree or disagree?
Jana
Yeah. I mean, from what I've seen and I've watched groups of women go through. Yes. And I definitely would agree with that.
Josh
Yeah. Any theories on why?
Jana
Theories on why that happened. I mean, I think a lot of times women will, when they're going through something, so they automatically will like run to their friendships to discuss everything that's going on, where it's like, honestly, that's something that you need to be running to your spouse. And that's stuff. I mean, now when it's about him, you want to take it to your friends.
But I do not gossip with my friends about you. I'm going to say something, you know, positive like that is just it. Yeah, I think a lot. 
Keith
So apparently that's your fault too.
Sheila
Everything is women's fault. So they have it in their heads that women are always the problem, right. Like, look at these women. Filing for in 70% of divorces, women are the ones filing. And this is a unique set of women. You know that women have this unique sin, as Josh Howerton says, and it's divorce.
It's like. And someone in my I put this up on Facebook recently and someone on my Facebook post said these divorce papers don't cause divorce any more than police reports cause car accidents.
Keith
Yeah.
Sheila
It's like the divorce papers were not what caused the divorce. And the fact that they don't even ask like that. They don't even say, what are these women filing divorce for, is insane. Okay.
Keith
So right back to the beginning, we said that they didn't ask why. Yeah. Why is it?
Sheila
I mean we did a whole podcast on this breaking down the stats. But you know basically in 57% of marriages that divorce, they have at least one instance of infidelity, abuse or addictions. Okay. And surveys have found when they've surveyed both men and women that the majority, including men, say that the one who is the most to blame for the divorce is the man.
Keith
Yeah. He cheated. Or he abused her, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Sheila
But what did Josh and Jana say? Oh, well, it's because of a woman's friend that is. Friends like that are the most bizarre reasons I have ever heard for divorce. It's because women are talking to other women, and your friends are encouraging you to get divorced. Are you serious? You think that's why women are divorcing?
Keith
Let me. Let me kind of bring the plane home. I think because you said that divorce papers don't cause divorce. These people do believe that. Yeah. Because they honestly believe. And they would never say this and they would deny it. And you say to their face, we honestly believe women should put up with absolutely everything. Rather than get a divorce and that woman by deciding I'm no longer going to put up with this.
Yeah. Is sinning. In their mindset. Yeah. That's honestly what they believe at their core. Yeah. So when she says their friends are the problem it's because yeah women come around to the women and go. Holy crap. You deserve better than that. He is treating you abominably. Yeah. You get out of there. Yeah. And, eventually they get through the gaslighting that their pastor is giving them.
And they realize I am worth something and I shouldn't have to be subjugated to this. Yeah.
Sheila
And my kids shouldn't have to.
Keith
Yeah. and they get safe. And then Josh Howerton calls it a sin. Yep. And it's. Oh yeah. He shouldn’t have abused her, he shouldn’t have abused her. Let's not talk about that though. Let's talk about her sin of divorcing. Yes. Yeah. Drives me crazy. Yeah. Absolutely.
Sheila
Okay. I do want everyone to put a pin in the fact, though, that they're saying don't talk to your friends because listen to this next one. Where this is Josh Howerton again, and he's talking about therapy.
Josh
Like people right now live in the most therapeutic cultures that have ever existed simultaneously. This is the most lonely, anxious, depressed, and suicidal generation that ever existed. Now, in a secular culture, the therapists replace the pastors. So it's like, that's what you gotta watch out. So a lot of people look to therapists as secular priests. I've read that before, and I do just want to point out it does not seem at any scale like it's doing what we may have hoped it would do.
But what I think you understand as a Christian, when you walk into a counselor's office, what you're doing, whether you know it or not, is you're asking them to disciple you and you're opening up the most vulnerable parts of your life your heart, your emotional pathways, decisions that you're going to end up making. So what we want to do as Christians is man.
We want to make sure that we're getting wise and godly counsel from a counselor. And this is something that as I look back and reflect on the one experience I had that was not a good, godly experience.
Sheila
Okay. So you're not allowed to talk to your friends, and you shouldn't go to counseling because the only person you should be listening to is your pastor.
And it's a pastor saying this. Can anyone, like, see how this is a little self-serving here? Yeah. Like, yeah. Josh Howerton, too, knows that when people go to healthy counselors, they start to recognize patterns of abuse, and that includes patterns of spiritual abuse, because once you see it in one area, you see it in others, too. And that's when he starts to lose people, congregant congregants, because they're no longer willing to put up with this.
Keith
Yeah. You know. Yeah. You shouldn't trust the care of a secular counselor. You should. But you should trust a Christian. Yeah. Like, even if they don't like a pastor, he has no training in psychology. No training in mental health stuff specifically. Yeah. They just know the Bible. You should trust them, but not trust a secular counselor who has been trained about how human beings actually work.
Right. To make you feel better and make you work through your issues. Yeah. It's crazy. It's like saying, you know, my car is making this funny noise. I could take it to a mechanic, but I'm not sure if that mechanic's going to be a Christian. So I'm going to pick some random dude in the parking lot at my church and have him look in there.
You know exactly what I'm saying?
Sheila
But the other interesting thing is, like, he's saying you should go to your pastor to get discipled, but Josh Howerton is famous for not talking to people in his church like this is actually quite a thing on social media. Is like he even said, pastors shouldn't be bothered with congregants because, you know, that's what small groups and pastors aren't for that, right?
So it's like, it's just absolutely crazy. But I do want to talk about it again. He says a lot of things with no stats. You know that all of these things are worse over the last 120 years, you know, suicide, etc., etc., etc. and markers of mental health are worse. And again, this is a case where we really need nuance
120 years ago, women couldn't divorce for abuse. Women couldn't have their own bank accounts. Women couldn't own. I don't even know if they could own property everywhere in the United States. I'm not sure. People who were not white did not have full civil rights in the U.S., and often.
Keith
You're still in a lifetime of people who had been subject to slavery.
Sheila
Right. And so, you know, again, to think that, oh, it was so great back then, maybe. Yeah, it wasn't for the vast majority of people. Maybe it was for a subset. But the other thing is you can take any marker. Like, I could make a really good case why teenagers are worse off today than they were when we were teens
If we looked at suicide rates, if we looked at mental health, if we looked at, ability to communicate, and, and community, we could say that teens are way worse off. But if we use different measures, if we use sexual activity, drug use and alcohol use, teenagers are better off
Keith
Today because those are actually down.
Sheila
Those are down. They were worse when we were teenagers. So it's like it's really easy to say everything is getting worse, but it's actually quite nuanced. And it depends what markers you look at.
Sheila
What's it mean to actually know your spouse?
Keith
All right, babe, you got to take one of these. How is that fair? This is going to be the first of an eight part series. So the studies that we've done have been looking at what people believe and what people put into practice and what the outcome is for those marriages.
Sheila
So we decided to go big or go home. And we've done four massive surveys. 78.9% of couples make decisions totally together and do not give the husband the time break.
Keith
Every valley shall be raised up. Every mountain and hill may blow.
Sheila
Both need to be putting your all in. Because a lot of us are afraid to speak up.
Keith
Just let your spouse hear that and know that you can let each other into your emotional worlds.
Sheila
The point is prioritizing the ingredients of great sex.
Keith
Noticing what your spouse likes, what your spouse needs. And that's what keeps that romance, that spark alive in your relationship. We hope you enjoy doing them together as a study group, and we just wish you all the best as you create the marriage you want.
Keith
And again, because this is the issue, the issue is curiosity and wanting to know why. Yeah. So if you want to know why, keep asking why. And you'll find out why. These people don't want to know why they're trying to set up an us or them mentality. Yeah we're right. They're wrong. Yeah. It's not about actually understanding. It's about showing that we're the right people and they're the wrong people.
Yeah. Right. So don't trust the secular counselors because they're secular. Yeah. Who's Christian? Good. Secular bad. Yeah. Right. The fact that God made the universe. You know, his truth is God's truth. Well, that sounds too much like you might be supporting them. Like it's just crazy. Yeah. And so as soon as you start seeing that your critical thinking like should go beep beep beep beep beep, like, there's an agenda here, right?
Let's ask the questions. Let's ask why. Let's ask, you know, probe. Let's be curious. Yeah. Exactly.
Sheila
Okay. So now I have one by Rachel Jankovic. I don't know if it's Jankovic or Jankovic or whatever or Jankovic. I don't know. Anyway, she is Doug Wilson's daughter, one of Doug Wilson's daughters, and she's written a number of books, and she does a podcast, etc. and here is a clip, and I'm just going to play the opening because I want us to comment on the opening before we comment on her actual advice.
Okay. So here is the opening for this clip.
Rachel
I want to talk about something that comes up all the time, and that is my husband doesn't understand how hard this is. He isn't supportive. He's not seeing my needs. My husband is not coming alongside me and helping.
Or maybe you're not even saying those things out loud, but you're just shooting the evil eye at your husband after church while you're holding a fussy baby or whatever. This is actually really common. This comes up all the time that women are frustrated with their husbands for not understanding what they need when they live in a house full of little children.
Sheila
You know what I find so interesting about this is like, why is this a problem with so many people?
Keith
Yeah.
Sheila
In your group.
Keith
And the fact that they don’t even ask that. Yeah. It's like. It's like, you know, you move into a new house and you do your own wiring, you know, and then the house burns down. You have to move again. So you get a new house and you do your own wiring, and then the house burns down and you have to move again. And, you know, you do your own wiring. Nobody stops to put the dots together.
Sheila
Yeah.
Keith
It's like you should get a professional to do that, if you don't know what you're doing. Yeah.
Sheila
It reminds me of the podcast we did a while ago on divorce. And I did it with Helen Paynter, and we were listening to some clips, and one of the Calvary Chapel pastors was saying he's always getting these women from his congregation coming in to him saying, you know, I'm being emotionally abused. Can I divorce for emotional abuse?
And he's all these women saying they're being abused. And that's just the catchphrase is to say, you're being abused. And it's like, did you ever wonder why so many people, so many women in your congregation are being abused? No. Like instead of saying, gosh, what's wrong with these women that they're saying this, let's like maybe we should ask, oh, why is this such a problem in my group where I am setting the tone, right?
And like, that's the thing, Rachael is giving all of this advice to young moms and what she's hearing back from these young moms is my husband doesn't do a thing, and I feel very alone. Yeah. And it doesn't seem to compute to her that maybe there's something about what I'm teaching that is causing this to be a problem.
Keith
Yeah. Right. It never connects. Yeah. Okay. Because then you actually have to start questioning. Yeah. Whether you're teaching really was what God intended. Yeah. Or can't do that. Because we know it's God's word.
Sheila
Right. So here is the beginning of her advice to women. Are you ready?
Keith
She's going to be like, she’s going to blame the women
Sheila
Yeah yeah of course she is. Okay. So here let's listen in.
Rachel
How likely do you think it is that you Patronize him all the time about how to care for your children? How you complain about what he does or if he does load the dishwasher. You don't like what he did. If he feeds the baby something you didn't want the baby to eat, you complain about it or you disrespect him constantly in the raising of your children.
It's easy to criticize, criticize, criticize and then complain, complain, complain when he doesn't. When he's not involved. When he's not stepping in there to handle things. So think of if it went the other direction. If he was.
Sheila
Guess what, honey? It's all her fault. Is that even? Of course it is. Of course it is.
Keith
Is. There is no problem.
Sheila
Yeah.
Keith
Oh, you proof that a problem? Okay. You're the problem then?
Sheila
Yeah. I thought it was really interesting to you. How she starts off by saying, like, you know, consider. Could it be that it's this and then by the end of it, she's like, yeah, it's it's it's that.
Keith
Yeah. Yeah. Can you consider that maybe you might be doing something. You're doing this. You're doing that. You're doing this. You're totally disrespecting your husband. Yeah. This whole big thing. Yeah. It's a very manipulative way of speaking.
Sheila
And that's honestly what the Doug Wilson crowd does a lot. It's yeah it's very very manipulative. It's also really interesting. Just as a side note how Doug Wilson so rarely talks about Jesus. Yes. Like they just never mention Jesus. It's wild. Anyway, Okay.
Sheila
Speaking of Jesus. Let's. I have another quote, another clip from Josh Howerton to play. And this is, this kind of seems like it might come out of left field, but there's been an increasing number of reels that I've seen lately. Of Christians and pastors who are also political commentators or like to get into politics quite a bit.
So Josh Howerton, for instance, he tells you how to vote, is very political and on this line in this crowd, they're talking about Islam a lot more like we really didn't talk about Islam much since the end of the war on terror wrapped up. But it's all coming back now for some reason. So let's listen.
Let's listen to this clip.
Josh
I can't for the life of me understand why liberal women have become sympathetic to Islam but despise Christianity. The data just shows like that's actually a thing. So the intelligent question this guy's asking is liberal, like fundamentalist Islam, like women that aren't wearing burqas are going to get beat in public. Fundamentals. Islam is like, it's not, wives submit to your husbands.
It's all women who submit to all men. Death penalties for, you know, for certain things that women do. So he's asking a very intelligent question. What in the world, bro? I think there's two things going on here. Number one, and this is sensitive, but it is like the truth is the truth. Here's a big part of the problem. Progressive women, especially white progressive women.
And they don't have kids. They have cats saying, oh, you. I noticed that it was not pastor Josh. Who said that?
Sheila
Okay. Okay. So what is wrong with these progressive women? That they love Islam, but they don't like Christianity.
Keith
So, yeah. Citation needed.
Sheila
Citation needed. Please. Yeah. I don't know where he's getting that from.
Keith
What does he mean by support, what is he talking about, where is the data. Yeah, because I bet you, whatever he's talking about, if you had read that article, you'd be like, you don't know what you're talking about.
Sheila
Yeah, yeah, but this thing about. Okay, look at Islam, they make women wear burkas. Okay,
But I mean, Josh, is this also you?
Josh
To fight. This is really interesting. The book of Ephesians says to you men, that if you if the devil literally, physically appears to you, it says, what you need to do is stand firm against the fiery darts of the evil one. But then the same book says to flee sexual immorality. You know what that means. If you go out of one of our campuses, get in your car
And the literal, physical devil horns and tail and bang a whole state of right there. You need to stand up and bow up. And the Bible is going, hey, fight! But if you go out there and it's like some shady little girl in a mini skirt. Run, Forrest! Run! You are no match for this enemy.
Sheila
Shady little girl in a mini skirt, and so. And if we talked about this clip before. But what he's saying is that if a Christian adult man comes out of church on a Sunday and he sees a child in a mini skirt, he needs to flee because she is more dangerous to him than the literal devil.
So the sight of a child in a short skirt is going to tempt him to either lust after her or rape her. How is that different?
Keith
The mentality is the same.
Sheila
Yeah.
Keith
Covering the woman too. Because of the man.
Sheila
Yeah. Like that. That the woman's body or the clothing that she wears could be a danger to the man.
Keith
Yeah. But rather than. See.
Sheila
Yeah.
Keith
Like, he thinks this is obviously wrong. But then rather than see that reflected in his own teaching and go oh maybe I've missed that boat. Yeah. He uses this as a tool in his, you know, culture war.
Sheila
Yeah.
Keith
It’s just crazy.
Yeah. And then and then he says, I mean, what's wrong with these progressive women? Because in Christianity, you know, we say, yes, a wife has to submit to her husband. But in Islam, they say all women have to submit to all men. And that's supposed to be a lot better.
You know, it was like we were talking about in that podcast recently about Complementarism right? Yes. You want to paint them, you want to paint extremely far so that we don't look so bad in comparison?
Yeah. Patriarchs. We're just kind of patriarchal a little bit.
Sheila
Yeah.
Keith
It's like the patriarchy lite.
Sheila
Yeah. But meanwhile, like John MacArthur literally did say that all women are supposed to submit to all men.
Keith
So many people in this space.
Sheila
Yeah.
Keith
Say that women should be subject to men.
Sheila
Absolutely.
Keith
The idea that a woman can't teach a man. Yeah, you can only learn from men. Yeah.
Sheila
That is the same thing. That is the same thing.
Keith
Absolutely.
Sheila
Like it's crazy. And so it's a difference of degree, not of kind. And that's really what I want people to hear okay. Because he's saying yeah we're not as bad as them. We're only slightly on the road towards them. Right. But that's it. Yeah. Yeah. But you're still on the road. Josh, you could get off the road.
You could get off that that,
And what I want people to understand is that fundamentalists have more in common with other fundamentalists of different religions. Then they do with honest Jesus followers. Right. Because the thing about fundamentalism is that they are focused on some people being in authority over a whole bunch of others, and having a religion which is authority and rules based control and shame and all of that.
Okay. Whereas Jesus followers don't do that. Jesus followers are all about how we can serve one another? How can we rely on the Holy Spirit together and not set up power and hierarchy, and not say that there's divisions between us based on race or sex or whatever, but instead like, how can we just love one another and form a healthy community?
And that is a very different thing than what he teaches.
Keith
Yeah. And once you're out of this system. Right. You see the whole Bible differently? Yeah. Right. It's like Jesus said, you know, that the son sets you free. You should be free indeed. Except you have to make sure you follow the proper hierarchy in the church, because that's what's implied in that verse. Right. Like, it's just like things that Jesus said.
Yeah, it's so much more sense when you come out of this high control version of Christianity. Like, oh, that. Actually, I don't have to ignore that verse anymore. I can actually live that. Yeah. Because Jesus said that I can walk in that freedom. Yeah, I can walk in those things. Yeah. Just crazy.
Sheila
Okay. Here's the other thing that really, really bothers me about this. And I agree that there are major human rights abuses in fundamentalist Islam. Yeah. Okay. I also think there's major human rights abuses and fundamentalist Christianity. And the issue is that that is really happening in the U.S. right now. And rather than deal with the actual problems that are so prevalent in his community, he is choosing to demonize a different community.
Keith
Yeah.
Sheila
And I don't think that's okay. Like, this is a spec log situation here. So let me give you an example. All right. In the United States, 34 states allow child marriages. So allow you to get married before the age of 18. Four states have no lower limit. And those are California and Mississippi, New Mexico and Oklahoma. So you can get married at any age, as long as you have the parents' permission in those states.
Keith
All right.
Sheila
And I'm just going to read some stats. And I got these from, Unchained at Last, which is a really good advocacy group to end child marriage in the U.S.. I will put a link to their report. It's really good, in the comments. But between 2000 and 2021, 315,000 minors were legally married in the US. 86% of them were between a minor girl and an adult male.
All right. And even though most of the marriages were between 16 and 17 year olds, over 10,000 of them were 15 and younger. 17 of them were ten years old. All right. Like that is atrocious. And in many cases, girls were married to adult men when those girls were below the age of consent.
And so by getting married, these men are able to escape statutory rape laws. So if a man impregnates a 13 year old girl, but he can get the parents to pressure the girl into marrying him, he now escapes a lot of these issues. Right. And so this is going on in the US, and it is largely going on in religious communities and high control religious communities, right.
And and so Josh is angry, supposedly at these terrible human rights abuses in Islam. But what is he doing about what's going on right here? What is he doing about the fact that it is his denomination, the Southern Baptist Convention, that was founded on slavery and that is completely covered up sexual abuse scandals over and over and over again?
It's like it's really easy to point the finger at those foreigners who are so bad when it is your group that is perpetuating some of the worst human rights abuses in the US right now.
You know, and after I did this I of course had to ask well what about Canada. Okay. Like what are we doing?
Keith
Please tell me we are better.
Sheila
We are better. But we don't have a lot to brag about here either. Okay. So in Canada you can get married at 16 and 17 with the permission of your parents. All right. So we still do have child marriage. And in roughly the same period as the stats I gave you. 3600 children were married. Okay, so that's about 1 in 9.
If you take it, like one ninth, if you take it on a per capita basis, because the state has about nine times more people than Canada. And so if we were proportional, we should have had, you know, roughly 35,000 child marriages, but we only had 3600. So, you know, we're doing better, but still, you know, and it's like, I just wish that there would be some acknowledgment that, yeah, we need to end human rights abuses
But he's not doing that. He's instead just villainized fundamentalist muslims.
Keith
Because he's not, he's not the idea that there are women being oppressed in other countries out there. It's not like he's really insensitive to fix that. Yeah. He's not trying to fix that. He's trying to use that fact to villainize these progressive white women.
Because they vote wrong. And we need to show why they're wrong and we're right. There is plenty of this thing not to actually fix it, but as a tool in this culture war. Yes. Use it. And the thing is really, really quite telling is this is the toxic empathy guy, right. Or one of the men.
Like empathy is a toxic right.
But he'll use your empathy for women in other cultures who are subjugated. To convince you of his political goals. Okay. Who's your empathy? Your natural empathy to exploit you and make you think like he does. Yeah. To manipulate you. So empathy is not like toxic empathy. Like that's toxic empathy. Like using it for your propaganda.
Yeah. Like it's just crazy.
Sheila
And I do want to say, look, I, I am very concerned about human rights abuses around the world, both in Islamic countries and non-Islamic countries. You know, there's a problem with patriarchy and with the abuse of women everywhere. And my dream would be that when immigrants came to Canada, that the women would be separated and would be given classes on, you know, here are your rights in Canada?
Here is what abuse is. Here's what marital rape is. Here are resources for you to call if you're ever in trouble. Like, I wish that happened. And I wish that the men and the boys were also taken, and were taught. Hey, this is what is acceptable and what is not acceptable here. You know, I wish that that would happen.
But the thing is, it's not just immigrants who need those messages, right? That is what we have shown over and over again, is that it is often the fundamentalist Christians who need these messages just as much. And it just really bothers me when there's no acknowledgement of that. You know. Anyway, Okay. Bit of a soapbox. Are you ready for the last clip?
Yeah. Okay. This one? This one is one of those ones that is like. Sounds good. But when you really break it down, it's like, oh, boy. And this kind of encapsulates everything we've been talking about. Okay. So here is John Lovell again with Josh McPherson. So John Level is doing the talking, but he is with pastor Josh McPherson, a good friend of Josh Howerton.
Sheila
Here we go.
John
My wife is not in charge of my house. I am, and she is my helper. And I'm not her helper. She doesn't wear pants. I do now because I adore my wife. I want to model the sacrificial leadership of Jesus. Jesus, recognizing that all authority in heaven on earth had been given to me, stood up, took out his outer robe, tied it around his waist, knelt down and washed his disciples' feet.
That's what the biblical account is. Recognizing he had all authority, he got down and washed feet. I am in authority over my wife. It's not a 50/50. The buck stops with me. I am the head because of that. I'm going to use my leadership to take wonderful care of my wife, boys, and my sons. This is our woman.
We're going to take care of her. She doesn't open doors. We opened it for her. Our job, my job as a man is to make sure my life is harder than hers. That's good. I want my life harder than hers. I make money. I'm going to spend more on her than me. I'm going to lift her up. I'm going to serve her.
I'm built stronger so that I can use my strength for my bride. I'm going to exalt her. I'm going to do something better than 50, 50 or equal. I'm going to lift her up. I'm going to treat her not as an equal. I'm going to treat her as more important. And I'm going to steer our marriage as well.
I'm going to set the culture for our home, and I need her to give me her valuable insight. And sometimes we're going to disagree, and I'm going to go with what she thinks. And sometimes I'm going to go with what I think, but I'm going to use her as my helper, as my second self on mission for the Lord, because I desperately, desperately need the counsel of my wife and honor her.
Sheila
Yeah. He's got to have authority over her because, you know, she's his helper. He's not hers.
Keith
Pants in this van. Yes, you do. Compensating with and telling your. These guys, they think they're so alpha. It's just ridiculous.
Sheila
It's really funny. So many things to say. You know what? There's no place in the Bible that actually says that a husband is an authority over the wife. It just isn't the only time authority in marriage is explicitly mentioned in the New Testament is in first Corinthians seven. And there it is absolutely shared. We see shared decision making, and we see that both of them have authority over each other's body.
So it's equal, like they're like, that's the only place that's explicitly mentioned. And people will say, oh, but he's her head. Yes. And I will put a link to the podcast with Marg Moscow on this. When we talked about the Greek word head. But Paul deliberately uses a word here which does not have a connotation of authority in English. It is in English. When we think ahead, we think head of a corporation, head of an army, etc. in Greek kahale did not have that connotation. It meant more head of a river or source, like, you know, or or just unity. Like just a head, your actual physical head, you know? And so to say that this passage is teaching men to lead their wives is just simply untrue. It is untrue.
Keith
Yeah. I mean, like, they read leadership in that. Yeah. Like that's because they come to the Bible with the idea that men are supposed to be a church. That is their culture. That's what they grow up in. And that's where they're taught from a very young age. Yeah. So they read the Bible and they see authority lead like they see all that stuff right.
So when you say head in Greek didn't mean that. Of course it is.
Because that's always what it's meant to be.
If they're reading their culture into the Bible and then you know that, that's perfectly fine, you're allowed to do that because it's the right culture. But you and you want women to be equal. That's feminist. Yeah. That's wrong to read that culture, the Bible. Yeah. My culture reading the Bible is perfectly fine. Yeah. It's just ridiculous. I mean the whole point of the head thing is, is head and body right the Wife and the husband.
Sheila
You can't separate them. You can't separate the head and the body.
Keith
It is meant to be like how Jesus is united in this church, and it's this great big, huge, amazing mystery that talks about unity. You're not talking about who's in charge of whom. Like the point of the passage is not to say that. So-and-so is in charge of so-and-so because in that time period the men were in charge of the women.
So Paul talks about men serving because he's saying, I know you're going to assume I'm talking about authority. I'm going to show you the opposite.
Lower. Yes. Because we're united. Yeah. Point by passages. And there's. They're. Oh, yeah. Head. I'm in charge. Yeah.
Sheila
Not there. And then he says. He says, remember the sacrificial leadership of Jesus. Jesus never talked about sacrificial leadership. You know, what's the quote?
Keith
The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to be a servant leader. Yeah.
Sheila
That's not what it says.
Keith
Yeah. Because it's so, like, once you're out of this, you see the Bible so much clearly. It makes so much more sense. Yeah. Jesus said, you know, you should not be seeking authority over each other. Yeah. The example of Jesus was that Jesus is co-eternal with the father, and Jesus is the part of the Trinity. It's not like God made Jesus to have power, which Jesus then gave up.
That's Arianism. That's actually heretical.
Jesus is co-eternal with the father from all of his existence. He has had that authority, that power, that right to worship. He had that. He chose to give that up, to come and serve us and rescue us from our sins. That's the example. The point that Paul talks about is he's trying to say that's your example people.
So whatever little power you have in your puny little human kingdoms you give that up. You serve others. If the person who had all of that could give it up, so can you. But what do these guys do? They twist it completely. They make it sound like I need to accumulate powers. The husband I need to make sure that everyone knows that I have the authority.
So then I can serve my wife. But until I get that authority I can't serve her. So it's about. So if they're taking Jesus's example of who was in nature God and giving up authority to accrete power to themselves. It's the exact opposite of what Paul is teaching and what Jesus’ example to us or modeled to us.
Yeah. It's crazy.
You don't need to. Have authority to serve your wife.
Sheila
I know that's my big question. Listening to this is like, why can't you do all those nice things for her regardless? Like, why is it that you have to talk so much about how I have all this authority? I have the decision making power. She's not my helper or I'm not her helper. She's mine. Before you can actually make life great for her, why can't you just make life great for her?
Why can't you just love
Keith
They said there needs to be balance?
Keith
She needs to submit to him, but he needs to serve her. And that is balance. But they're basically saying unless you give me the authority then I don't have a right, I don't have to serve you. Yeah. You know and but they do definitely say if he doesn't love you properly you still need to submit to him. Yeah. Like that message comes through loud and clear for women.
Sheila
Yeah.
Keith
Right. And it's crazy because the truth is that he says my life's going to be harder than hers. Right. Like it's. This is a noble thing. I'm only taking this power for her benefit. It's not for me. My life is harder than her life. Well scientifically that's not true.
Sheila
Yeah. Absolutely not.
Sheila
Actually if you look at the data. You know, men have more free time than women in marriages. Married men have more time than many women. Right. And in cultures where the belief is that the man is not supposed to do all the stuff, the woman is supposed to be in charge of the household to do all the domestic labor and keep track of all the relationships and do all that stuff.
The man doesn't have to bother with that stuff because I'm not her helper.
Sheila
Right.
Keith
She seems to do her job and I'll do mine. But I'm not her helper. Yeah. In those places, those men have even more free time in their lives and have more leisure than their wives, and have a better life and an easier life and a cushier life than their wife. I can't speak to him specifics. I don't know yet.
Statistically. He's the exact kind of guy who has a lot better life than his wife does. Yeah. Just speaking. Yeah. And then he's the goal to say my life should be harder than hers. But you know what? It's because he actually believes it's harder than hers. Because he feels that having that authority is a burden. We talked about this as a couple.
Yes. Like I have this burden of authority in this relationship. Like the buck stops with me and that's such a burden. So although I have 15 hours more leisure, I have to use those all the hours of the week to worry about my burden of authority. It's so heavy on me that I should get those 15 hours and you should even stop complaining about it.
That kind of stuff. Right. It's just ridiculous. Yeah. Like it's gaslighting all the way down.
Yeah. Gaslighting themselves. I have it so hard. It's.
Sheila
Yeah. No. And again, let's just reiterate our most recent survey for a book, The Marriage You Want. We did find that men who believed they had authority in the marriage, and especially men who acted that out by making the final decision, even if they consult with their wives first, which is what he's talking about here. Those men have far higher marital satisfaction than their wives.
And we see divorce rates increase And we see divorce rates increase and we see abuse increase like it's not good. Okay. If you want to have a good marriage there's a really easy way. It's just a function of partners. Let's just function as partners.
Keith
Let’s assume God put us together. Truly are equal. Like not just equal but not equal, but really equal. Like don't feel like you're not. Yeah. I'm over you. Yeah. But you know none of that nonsense. We just assume that God actually loves his daughters as much as his sons. That we are both to be partners and work together to create a great marriage.
That honors and glorifies God. Yeah. Let's do that.
Sheila
Yeah.
Keith
You know, and it, everything works out great.
Sheila
It works out really well. But when you follow.
Keith
You don’t have to explain away any verses in the Bible. Yeah. Like, like there's way, way a lot of verses and a new twist, a lot of other ones to see things. But they were never meant to say.
Sheila
Yeah. But again, what you hear over and over again, this is why I wanted to use this clip, is these guys saying things which sound really good, I mean. Yeah. Like, he's going to sacrifice for her. He's going to give himself to her. But just remember that they're not actually sharing stats of what happens on the ground.
Keith
Right.
Sheila
You know, they're saying like this is the ideal and this is what men are going to do, but they're not telling you what actually happens. And when we look at what actually happens, the stuff doesn't work because authority and power don't work like this. This is what Jesus said. He said that it was pagans that went after that.
It shouldn't be us. Okay? We're supposed to serve one another.
Keith
Be servant leaders,
Sheila
Not be servant leaders but to serve one another. And so, like when the data shows that what you are saying doesn't work, that should be a wake up call. And that's the commonality in all of these clips, is like they're making these huge claims about how people like us, people who believe like us, are doing so much better than those stupid progressives or those stupid women, silly women, or whoever it is.
That's the scapegoat here, right? But in fact, when we look at the data, people like them don't do well because they aren't following the heart of Jesus. And let me just say, as we're getting into the Christmas season, you know, and the incarnation is coming, Jesus actually did give up all the authority and gave up his privilege, and came to Earth as a baby.
And we're thinking about what that means. I think this is a really good time to ask ourselves, what do we think faith is about? Because what we hear so much in evangelicalism is that faith is about making sure the right people are in power. And faith is about making sure that we have good authority systems set up, and that faith is about being better than all those other people.
That's not what Jesus said. You know, what did Mary say in her song? That with the arrival of Jesus, we were going to see the lowly raised up and we were going to see, what is it? The mighty cast down from their thrones. Right? Like, it's about leveling the playing field. And it's about God valuing all of us and us all becoming part of the people of God.
And just look at how much in Jesus's life he talked about the kingdom of God and the gospel before he was dead. I mean, I grew up as an evangelical, learning that the gospel was just simply Jesus died for our sins so that we could go to heaven and.
Keith
And if you believe anything other than that.
Sheila
Yeah. You're adding, you're adding. But Jesus preached the gospel before he died.
Keith
The Bible says that.
Sheila
And so, yes, the cross and the resurrection are absolutely central to the faith. But I think we've lost the meaning of them because we've lost the meaning of Jesus's life and what he taught. And so I hope this season, as we talk and look at the incarnation you can make, maybe ask yourself, what was the good news that Jesus was preaching?
You know what? What is the Kingdom of God? And don't be afraid to ask those questions because I'll tell you, like I said earlier, fundamentalists have more in common with other fundamentalists than they do with followers of Jesus. And a lot of us have been listening to pastors and TikTok videos and Instagram Reels where they sound like everything you've ever heard before, but it just doesn't seem right.
And it's because it's not about Jesus, and you're allowed to realize that that doesn't mean you're turning against your faith. And once you do realize that, it's like everything clicks into place, you can start seeing it everywhere. So I hope that we've given you some good ways to think about that. You know, ask yourself who is being scapegoated in this video?
Am I being, am I being, invited to think like I am superior to others? Are there citations being given for all these claims that are being made, or are people just making wild claims with no citations? Is there nuance here? Like asking these questions. You're allowed to ask questions, and then the truth is going to seem a lot more obvious.
And so thank you for joining us on the Bare Marriage podcast in 2025. If you like what we say, if we have brought freedom into your life, will you consider becoming a partner with us as we try to get this message to people who don't know about this podcast, to people who might never see my social media channel, as a work in more academic papers, on some podcast docu series that are coming up on getting translations done, and so much more.
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So consider joining us for that and join us next week on the last edition of the Bare Marriage Podcast for 2025. Bye bye, everybody