Bare Marriage

Episode 312: Why The Complementarian Bar for Men is in the Basement

• Sheila Gregoire • Season 10 • Episode 312

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We're tackling three really problematic things that have happened recently with evangelical leaders that show just how low the bar has gotten for men. From Jonathan Podluka announcing he wants to sleep with multiple beautiful women, to pastors responding to Philip Yancey's affair by saying "it could be any of us," to Tim Challies telling people in miserable marriages to just stick it out until they die—it's all connected to this theology that refuses to hold men accountable and tells women they just need to accept it. The common thread? A theology of male hierarchy that steals intimacy from marriages, justice from victims, and Jesus from people who are hurting.

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Sheila
Welcome to the Bare Marriage podcast. I'm Sheila Wray Gregoire from Baremarriage.com, where we like to talk about healthy, evidence based biblical advice for your sex life and your marriage and I am joined for the first time in 2026 by my husband, Keith. 

Keith
Hey everybody

Sheila 
And we are going to talk about how the bar for men in evangelicalism is in Hades. And seriously, can we just raise it up just a little bit? Just a little bit would be great. So, we've got three different pastors to talk about today, or at least three different Christian leaders, who have all said problematic things or done problematic things lately. Okay. So we're going to look at Jonathan Pokluda, SBC megachurch pastor, Tim Chalice, a reformed pastor from Toronto and big in The Gospel Coalition, and just pastors reactions in general to the Philip Yancey affair. This has been a podcast that has been several weeks in the making, because all of this stuff has been happening and I've been wanting to respond, like, right away because it's all so bad

Keith
Yes.

Sheila
But we had other things lined up. So this is my chance to get everything off my chest. 

Keith
Yes. And the thing is that you're not bashing man because you think men can be better than this.

Sheila
Yes, exactly. Like I don't understand why I have a higher view of men than these guys do. 

Keith
The expectations in the evangelical world are just so low, it’s crazy. 

Sheila
I know, it's just, it’s absolutely nuts. Before we get started, I have another amazing announcement, which is in just a few weeks, okay,  We're looking at February 5th, I believe.

Keith
Okay

Sheila
We are going to be launching our podcast series, Happily Never After - The Curious Case of Love and Respect.

Keith
Yup

Sheila
It's a three part docuseries that we have done. It's going to be up on YouTube. It's going to be up on the Good Fruit Faith podcast channel, and we're going to be running the first episode here at Bare Marriage. To hear the other ones, you're going to have to subscribe to the accompanying podcast channel. More about that on February 5th. But this has been so many, well, it's been over a year in the making, with with Joanna and Rebecca, in the background. And this is one of the things that we raised money for. And we're just hoping that this podcast series gets out there so that people can see these are the bigger problems with the book. And it's not just the book, it's all of evangelicalism. It's like this idea has been present in evangelicalism for so long. It has done so much harm. And let's take a look at it. So I'm really excited about that. So that is coming very, very soon. Okay. 

Keith
Yes. 

Sheila
Let's start. Can we start with Jonathan Piccata? 

Keith
Sure. 

Sheila
Okay. So I think he goes by JP, I can never really be sure. But I think he goes by JP. He is a megachurch pastor from Waco, Texas, which is, it's a university town. So he has a lot of university age people at his church. He's very popular among university aged people. He got his start as a youth pastor. I believe at like, Watermark churches, but he's now with the SBC, I believe. And so SBC megachurch and I don't believe he has a seminary background. Okay, so not really trained. He's just very charismatic. All right.

Keith
Sure

Sheila
And every Friday on Instagram, he does these Q&As. So people send in questions. And then in his Instagram stories, which disappear after 24 hours, he answers them. And a couple of Fridays ago I was sent this screen recording by multiple people of something that he said, and I don't follow him, I don't watch him. But multiple people sent me this, including some authors, okay, some big name authors who are like, “what are we going to do about this?” And so I would like you all to listen to what he said, and then we'll dissect it. Sound good? 

Keith
Sounds good. 

Sheila
Okay, here it is.

Jonathan "JP" Pokluda
It has all kinds of desires. Ok? Why do I have desire to sleep with beautiful women while I’m a married man? Why does someone with same sex attraction have the desire to be with someone of the same sex? Why do you have the desire to take something that doesnt belong to you or buy something that you cant afford? We have aall kinds of desires that we have to surrender to the spirit of God. To understand that your desires do not determine what’s right. You desire all kinds of things that are harmful for you. This is so important to know and understand, that’s why a fruit of the spirit is self control - if you surrender to the spirit of God, you practice self control and you bring those desires under the control of your logic and the holy spirit so that you would do whats right, not what you want to…What’d you say?  

Monica Pokluda
I said it hurts me that you want to sleep with a bunch of other women

JP
Is that true?

Monica
Yes

JP
Do you want to sleep with a bunch of other men?

Monica
No, I don’t

JP
None?

Monica
No, I don’t

JP
I’ll be honest, I don’t know that I want to sleep with a bunch of other women. But, I do desire to do things that are harmful to me. I mean like, pornography is still a temptation as an example. And um, but I am a happily married man. I love my wife very much. I love my wife very much. 

Sheila
There are just so many layers to this, right? 

Keith
Yeah. 

Sheila
Like, I, okay. Where to start, where to start? Let's start with something kind of basic, okay? 

Keith
Okay

Sheila
There is a difference between having a flash of attraction when you notice someone who is attractive 

Keith
Mhm

Sheila
And specifically wanting to sleep with multiple beautiful women. 

Keith
Yes

Sheila
Okay. So like let's say that I get a flash of attraction, you know, when I see some guy, right? If that same guy came to my door and rang my doorbell and said, “Hey, Sheila, I'm here, let's have sex, nobody will ever find out” I would not be the least bit tempted. I would be totally freaked out. I would slam that door shut. I would lock it and call the police. Right? 

Keith
Yes

Sheila
Like, there isn't any level of temptation whatsoever, right? Because finding someone attractive is not the same thing as being tempted to sleep with them. Right?

Keith
Yeah. I think it's really interesting that he uses that word. He doesn't say that “I'm attracted to other women”, He says, “I want to sleep with other women.” 

Sheila
Yes, “beautiful women”

Keith
That's not normal. 

Sheila
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like wanting to sleep with them means that if they offered themselves to you, you would be tempted to say yes.

Keith
Yeah, or at least in his mind, he's gone past the noticing that they're attracted into actual lust. 

Sheila
Right. 

Keith
There's a plan formulating, like, he may stop it in its early stages but the idea is in his head. He's letting that idea be in his head. I mean, being attracted to a person, you can help that, right? Thinking about actually sleeping with them, that's the next step. That's not normal. 

Sheila
That's not normal. 

Keith
Like, I think it's normal outside of the church. Right? It shouldn't be normal for people who have their minds renewed by Christ. 

Sheila
Yeah, and that's the thing. Like, our sexuality should be sanctified, okay? Like we should have these things before God. Now, he does go on and say, you know, our desires are not in and of themselves good. And we should, you know, submit ourselves to the Holy Spirit and self-control, like wonderful, I'm glad he said all that, but… 

Keith
Well, I have a problem with that. 

Sheila
Okay, okay. 

Keith
Because he's not saying not all of your desires are good and they need to be tested. Like, I think the implication there is your desires are bad right. Anyway that's a different story and it's not about that concept. I think his theology is wrong even on that part too. Sorry. 

Sheila
Okay. But this idea that it is normal for a pastor to announce to the world that he wants to sleep with multiple women. And then.. 

Keith
As a throw off line 

Sheila
As a throw off

Keith
Like, you know, like, obviously. 

Sheila
And then. Yeah. And then and then his wife interjects, which I found really interesting. We'll talk about that in a minute. I have more I want to say about Jonathan Pokluda first, but his wife interjects, and he seems genuinely surprised that she doesn't want to sleep with multiple men. And then he kind of reevaluates. He says, okay, well, in thinking about it, maybe I don't actually want to sleep with other women, which, okay, thank you, I guess, you know, I just want to watch porn, right? And somehow, like, we're supposed to give him applause for this because he's being so honest and everything, and we watched a movie a couple of nights ago, the Knives Out movie, the second one. We watched the third one too, which is amazing. Everybody should watch the third one. It's it's got so many. It's got majorly what is basically about religion, and it's about the difference in the two types of religion today, the one that is really virulent and violent and nationalist 

Keith
Us against the world

Sheila
Us against the world and the one that is like, how can we be the hands and feet of Christ? And it's actually a very, very beautiful movie. But we watched that after watching the third, we decide to go back and watch the second 

Keith
Yeah, we hadn’t watched the second one.

Sheila
and I want to play a clip. Super short speaks for itself, doesn't need any context.

Birdie Jay
I’m a truth teller. Some people can’t handle it. 

Benoit Blanc
It’s a dangerous thing to mistake speaking without thought with speaking the truth.
Sheila
Yeah, yes, yes. There is a difference between speaking the truth and just simply speaking off the top of your head without thinking about it, and speaking off the top of your head without thinking about it does not make you especially authentic or approachable or anything. It just makes you irresponsible when you are a pastor. 

Keith
Yeah

Sheila
You know?

Keith
Yeah. There's not really a lot of thought going into what he's saying. It’s just his own experience dictates what is theology. 

Sheila
Yeah.

Keith
That's exactly the opposite of what you're supposed to do as a pastor 

Sheila
And he's not. And like, it wasn't until his wife spoke up that he was like, oh, maybe I should actually think about this a little bit before I tell the thousands of people in my congregation that it is normal to want to sleep with other people.

Keith
Are you going to talk about how the bro culture in, you know, the evangelical pastors kind of makes this be a blind spot? 

Sheila
I will, in fact, I want to, I brought this up in an article that I wrote about JP Pokluda three years ago now, because of something that went viral. And so I want to show that other clip, just to give you some more context of JP pokluda, I want to show this other clip and then let's talk about some of the similarities here. Okay? So this was a sermon that he gave I think in February of 2023. And it went viral on Twitter and everywhere actually.

Jonathan "JP" Pokluda
When Monica and I got married 18 years ago. We moved into her little apartment and she went out of town for a weekend to see a friend and I had a friend coming through town from college, a buddy from college and so he says “hey do you want to grab dinner?” and so he and I went to dinner, we’re catching up over chips and queso having a great time. And this women walked up to us and she was perfect. Physically beautiful. Everything was in the right place. And she turns to me and says “can I buy you a drink?” and I say “oh, I’m married” like that. And she says “Well is she here? Cause I don’t care.” And I hardly know any Bible but I know Proverbs 5, 6 and 7. The only thing saving grace in that situation was I looked at that woman and I thought - Oh, she hates me. She doesn’t love me. She wants my wife to hate me. And she wants my in-laws to hate me. And she wants my parents to hate me. And she wants my unborn children to hate me. For just, you know, a few minutes of ecstasy, she wants to take my life and burn it to the ground. And that thought was God’s saving grace in a moment.   

Sheila
Okay. So he's saying that this waitress propositioned him, and many people at the time were saying, was it really a proposition or did he just assume? But the only thing that stopped him from sleeping with this woman, who was gorgeous and who had everything in the right place, her body had everything in the right place. And he's like, openly salivating about this woman's body.

Keith
Again, this is several steps beyond noticing someone is attractive. I mean, this is lust. And he is preaching it from the front as if it is normal. 

Sheila
Yes.

Keith
This is disgusting. 

Sheila
And he says basically the only thing that stopped him was that he remembered a Bible verse. Right? So his wife is presumably sitting there and he is announcing to everyone in that congregation that the only reason he didn't cheat on his wife was because he remembered a Bible verse. And the point, I think, was we're supposed to applaud him for having these Bible verses memorized, right? 

Keith
Because the idea is that all men do this all the time, and some act on it and some resist it, like me,  and don't, and I should be applauded. 

Sheila
Yeah. 

Keith
So basically I am lusting constantly, but I'm not actually committing adultery, so applaud me.

Sheila
Yes. 

Keith
As opposed to I have put lust to death as Paul commanded, because I don't see women as objects to be consumed. 

Sheila
Yeah, right. 

Keith
Right. It's like crazy. 

Sheila
Yeah. And I wrote an article about that sermon clip for Baptist News. I'll put a link to it in the podcast notes, and in it and I talked about a sociologist named Sarah Diefendorf, who I had been following for quite a while. And she did this interesting piece, and I don't know if I can find the original article. I'll link to one of the peer reviewed articles she's written. But, basically she followed these married guys in all these accountability men's groups that they were in. Okay? And what she found is that being tempted to watch porn and talking about how much you were tempted to lust after other women became the sign of masculinity.

Keith
Yeah.

Sheila
For many of these guys, because, you know, in evangelicalism, you know, you don't have the notches on your bedpost kind of thing like they do in the wider world where your worth is in how many women you can get to sleep with you. And so you can't prove your masculinity by having all these women sleep with you. And so the way that you prove your masculinity is by saying how tempted you are by all these gorgeous women, because you must have a lot of testosterone and you're really manly, then. 

Keith
Yeah. So we have a worldly culture that celebrates a masculinity that is conquest of women. 

Sheila
Right. 

Keith
Sees women as objects to be conquered. And they do it a lot. So they are very masculine. 

Sheila
Yes. 

Keith
And in the church, instead of confronting that form of masculinity and saying that's horrific. Men and women are partners in the gospel. Co heirs with Christ. And we should see each other as equals. They say men want to be conquerors, but they don't act on it because they resist.

Sheila
Yeah. 

Keith
It is the worldly mentality just not acted out. Like it's not redeemed by the gospel. It's the same worldly mentality, but they just don't act on it. Yeah, yeah. And this is something I see in the church. I know one guy who was interviewing for a job, and he's a pastor and he's interviewing for a job, and they asked him, what are your struggles? Because in an interview, they always ask you, things that are, you know, supposed to be catchy questions. That you have to turn into strengths. I have a weakness, that like, I care too much. I have to put forward a weakness that makes me look like a really good person. And he said, well, of course I struggle with lust, but any man who tells you otherwise struggles with lying.

Sheila
Yeah, yup. 

Keith
And again, that part of that was the joke, showing that he’s got a sense of humor. Part of it, I think, was the I'm part of the bro code I get it. But some of it was the, I'm a masculine man because that's what masculinity is in the Christian church. And it's just sad because it's all based on this idea of men conquering women, as opposed to just being together and equal. But if you won’t give up that men are supposed to conquer women. You can't give up the lust because they're tied together and they're intimately linked. 

Sheila
Yeah, it's absolute ridiculous. And what does this say to his wife? Like, I am so amazed that his wife actually spoke up like, I really I really respect her. So it sounds like, you know, he's recording this thing and she's in another room, maybe in the kitchen. It sounded like she was in the kitchen or something. And then she said, you know, it really hurts me that you would say that you want to sleep with other women. And he says back, well, don't you want to sleep with other men? And then for some reason the caption said, yeah, like they dubbed it wrong. The caption said, yeah, when really what she said was no, you can hear her saying no. And I'm. And anyway, captions are sometimes wrong, but that's a weird one. I'm surprised they didn't fix it, you know, and then he says really? And then he reconsiders. Right. But then after he reconsiders, he says, yeah, I love my wife. And then he yells back, love you, babe. You know, like kind of, oh yeah, I'm appeasing her. Oh, she's still going to love me. This wasn't really a tiff. It's not really that bad. She's not really angry at me because, you know, after all, I’m the pastor and everything. And it's, I'm just amazed. This is a common theme we're going to see as we talk about some of the other stories this week, how women are just supposed to go along with it, like we're just supposed to accept this. And what he is doing is he is normalizing to his congregation that men should want to sleep with other women, that pornography is going to be a big problem for these men. You know, he's normalizing this. And so what's going to happen to the woman who's married to a guy who goes to strip joints, or who's married to a guy who, you know, has done stuff online or whatever and or even has had an affair? And that guy says, yeah, but all men do this. Even my pastor does. Right? She doesn't have a leg to stand on now. He has now just cut her support out from under her, because now she doesn't have a place to stand and say, no, that was wrong. Because even though he said, yeah, you're supposed to have self-control, he is still normalizing this for every guy in the congregation. He is saying that it is totally normal for men not to have redeemed sexualities, and he's also showing that he doesn't understand what sex is because someone who is tempted to sleep with other women, again, not someone who's merely attracted other people, but someone who's actually tempted to sleep with beautiful women. All right? Shows that he doesn't understand the basics of what sex is, that he sees it as being about his own physical release, and as about status, and as about taking from a person rather than an experience that you share together with someone that you love. And so if he doesn't even understand sex, how is he supposed to be teaching any of us this? How are we supposed to trust him to have any messages about healing or wholeness when he doesn't even get it himself? And this just drives me absolutely bonkers. You know?

Keith
Yeah. They don't get it, but they don't even know that they don't get it.

Sheila
Yeah.

Keith
Because they think that's just what sex is. 

Sheila
Well, and I think also there's this idea that men have so much shame, okay, men have so much shame about pornography and we know that in our study for the Good Guys Guide to Great Sex, just under 50% of evangelical married men currently are watching porn in some way. For most of them, it's rare. Like it's not all the time or it's intermittent binges, but they still are watching it in some way. Right? And Jonathan Pokluda, would probably fall in that category because he's saying that he has a problem with this. Right? So they say that men have all this shame about watching porn. And so we need to just talk about this more so that men don't have shame. But there is a way to talk about it which doesn't normalize it or which doesn't make it sound like even someone who has been a Christian for decades, or even someone who is a pastor, it's perfectly okay if they're still like this, right? Like, the Bible normalizes grace, but it also normalizes being sanctified and growing in Christ. You know, not that you are always stuck in this one area. 

Keith
Yeah, well, if you're always stuck in one area, it's because probably there's some fundamental belief or thing you're telling yourself internally, that’s taking you back to that place. 
Sheils
Yeah. And I mean, Jay Stringer has an amazing book called Unwanted on how sometimes, like, our unwanted sexual behaviors and desires that we have are often a map of our own woundedness and of things that have happened to us. And when we can use it as that map, and when we can show curiosity and uncover it, we can actually get healing. And I think that's so true. There's some great books on how to do that. You know, Jay Stringer, he's coming out with a new book too, called Desire. There's Michael John Cusick's Surfing for God. Really good book about that as well. You know, so like, we should be getting healing from this, but we don't get healing if we don't look at the roots of it. And we just simply tell people to try harder. And that's what Jonathan Pokluda is doing, is he's not looking at the roots. He's not saying, hey, this is an area that was a stronghold for me. And so I needed to get vulnerable and look at what it was that was drawing me to dehumanize and objectify women. He's not doing that. He's just making it sound normal that men would objectify and dehumanize women. 

Keith
Yeah, because in that culture, it is. It is normal. If they got to the point where they actually said, what is it? Oh, it's I don't think of women as equal to me. I don't think of women as my peers. Well their whole theology is based upon women not being their peers. So they have to give up their theology in order to be good Christians. Like, but they can't do that because our theology is right. Like, and that's, that's why it's a double bind for them. And as opposed to just seeing the Bible and seeing God making man and woman to be together as equals under him. Rather htan the man over the woman. Anyway, sorry. 

Sheila
Yeah. No it is, it is really wild. And I again, I just think about how much he has normalized in his congregation, the objectification and dehumanization of women and how we should not expect Christian men to think differently. We should be grateful when they don't sleep with multiple beautiful women. We should be grateful when they don't use porn, but we should not expect them to actually be redeemed or sanctified, because that's what being a man is. And it's like, oh my gosh, why are you a pastor? Like, like and you know, and again, I, I do want to support men going through this. And we've had a lot of podcasts and we had a great one with Sam Jolman. We’ve had numerous podcasts talking about how to, you know, how to walk through a porn problem. And I will put a link to the best books that I know of on this, but if you're going to get to a porn problem, you don't do it by making it sound normal. And that's the thing. And by making objectification of women sound like it's no big deal. And that's what he's doing. And I guess I'm just still amazed at the dismissal of his wife here. Like, his wife was obviously uncomfortable at what he was sharing. And yet instead of turning off the camera and not putting it in, you know, and like, and taking that part out and deleting it, because even if you're doing a live, you can stop and then you can go back and you can delete that part of it. Right? But he didn't do that. He left it up. And I just think that's so incredibly disrespectful of his wife. And again, it's showing that women can't speak up. Like, if your pastor's wife can't speak up, how do you expect everyday women in your congregation to be able to speak up? 

Keith
But I think he probably thinks that that was a model for other Christian men because he allowed his wife to speak. Because there are a lot of people out there that teach that she should be rebuked for speaking up. 

Sheila
No, that's true. Yeah.

Keith
That's where we're at now. 

Sheila
Again, bar Hades. 

Keith
Yeah, that's where we're at now. Yeah. And that's the sad thing because, I mean, even last week you were talking about the tandem bicycle, right?

Sheila
Two weeks ago. 

Keith
Two weeks ago. You talked about the tandem bicycle. And the whole idea that the woman in these circles is meant to multiply the man's strength, she doesn't add her strength. She multiplies his strength. Because the whole theology of men being over women says he is the object of God's actions on earth, and she is there to support him. Like, she is a side thought. She's an add on. She's not the main character. He is. And if you live in a world where you're being told that all the time, no wonder you think, oh, I could sleep with all kinds of women. And I feel good about myself and how masculine I am. And everyone does that, right? And then a person who's been taught from her childhood to put the needs of other people ahead of hers, says, oh, I don't think about that. And it's like, dude, like, maybe we should stop and realize that women are being taught to be Christlike and men are being taught to lord it over and not be Christlike and think about how other people are going to feel about this and what other people are going to think. You can be a man and be selfless, Christlike, giving, caring. But it starts with not needing to be an authority over other people. If you make that your whole raison d'etre that I'm in charge of my house. You will become a bad person. And you won't even know it. I think he thinks he's a good person here and he’s doing horrible, hurtful things and he doesn't even realize it because of the water he's swimming in. 

Sheila
You know it was interesting after three years ago after that sermon clip went viral. In the next sermon, after everything went viral, he talked about an incident he had with God, supposedly where God gave him a verse from the Old Testament which said that, you know, your enemies would all wither away and die, right? So all of this and he said he found such comfort in that, that all of these people who were saying such terrible things about him would wither away and die. And to be clear, the people calling him out were people like me and other pastors, you know. So it was women who were saying, this hurt me. This made me feel unsafe in your church. And he said that. And then the outcry got even louder. And he eventually did issue an apology. But the apology came after he justified it to himself and said, well, you know, it's okay because God says my enemies are going to die. And this does not show a maturity that pastors should have. Right? Like this, this does not show any kind of spiritual maturity.

Keith
Forget the pastor, an adult. Should have. Pastors should be higher.

Sheila
Yeah. Like this is, this is less. This is less than the average person in your congregation should have. And the fact that he's a pastor of a very large church, I think is concerning, you know. Okay, can we do the next one? 

Keith
Yeah, of course. 

Sheila
Okay. Philip Yancey. 

Keith
Right

Sheila
So, we learned a couple weeks ago that bestselling and beloved author Philip Yancey has written a lot of really good books, confessed to an eight year affair, and he said he was stepping back from ministry, that he deleted social media channels. And his wife gave a statement that she, even though she was betrayed and a lot of trauma, she was going to stay with him and be his caregiver because they've been married 55 years and she takes her vows seriously and I don't want to comment on her reaction. I think that is up to her. And Rebecca wrote a really good email about, let's not gang up on Janet Yancey here and whatever. And we also did a Friday Roundup video on it, but I haven't talked about it a lot on the podcast. And I've written a number of articles on this. I'll link to some of those in the podcast notes. But what really concerned me was not Philip Yancey himself, as horrible as that is, and I don't want to comment on him and his affair, but the reaction to the affair by multiple pastors who are commenting on it on social media, one of them was Tullian Tchividjian, who is the grandson of Billy Graham, the disgraced grandson of Billy Graham, who has been accused of, I think, seven, there's seven victims of clergy sexual abuse. He's broken up several marriages. He's never made amends with ex wife, ex-wives, I don't even know, it's bad. Okay. He was kicked out of his denomination, but he is still pastoring, of course. And he kind of epitomized some of the bad reactions. But I didn't see them just from him. I saw them repeatedly. But I want to talk about two in particular. And one is this idea that it could have been me. It could have been any of us. We need to be careful that we don't fall into sin, because this could have happened to any of us. 

Keith
So there's two aspects to that is, number one, is it true?Number two, is if it's true, is it helpful to say it? Those are both questions that need to be asked. 

Sheila
Exactly. So is it true? No no no absolutely not. Because having an affair, let alone an eight year affair. But let's forget the eight years, even one night stand, okay? Like even if it's not something that insignificant, is not like a virus which just infects people randomly. Okay? It is a decision that you make and certain people are more likely to make that decision.

Keith
Because it is more common than we'd like to admit. But there are things you can do to increase or decrease your risk of it happening. It's not just a freak lightning strike, yeah, there are things you can do that make it more likely that you will do that or less likely.

Sheila
Yeah. So first of all, men are more likely than women, especially in the church. And often we'll see stats about infidelity and affairs. Just remember that those stats, when I'm talking about this, I'm talking about churchgoing, committed, evangelical, Christians. So when you see stats of the general public or of like, you know, Cosmo readers or something, that is not the same thing. And when you look at religious people, the chance of having an affair is actually quite low. Okay. It's actually quite low. Men are at least twice as likely as women, if not three times as likely. Okay. And there are certain characteristics which make it more likely. And one of the, we talked about this, we did a whole podcast on this, you and I did a whole podcast on this, on why do men cheat, looking at peer reviewed studies. And one of them is entitlement. So when you teach men that you’re entitled to women's bodies, that they are entitled to unconditional respect, 

Keith
That you’re the leaders, they need to submit to you. You teach men that they're the cat's meow and she's your helper. 

Sheila
Yes, yes, that makes affairs more likely. And also if you have hostile or benevolent sexism. So if you think you know men are the main character.

Keith
If you’re sexist, even if it’s not an aggressive, hateful, misogynistic sexist. Even if it's benevolent sexism. 

Sheila
Which is like, I need to protect you. I want to provide for you. It's not bad to do those things, but when you think like, that is my role because she's a woman. Yeah. 

Keith
Again, if you, if you want to take it seriously. If you want to reduce your risk, you need to stop being sexist and stop being entitled. And what that means is you need to stop believing that you're in charge of your wife and that you’re a team together as equals. But they won't do that because that's just, we won't go there. Like, it doesn't matter how bad the theology is and how bad it hurts people. Men are supposed to be over women. End of story.

Sheils
So, you know, so you're telling people, hey, this could happen to anyone. What that does to women is it means that we can never trust our husbands. Okay? It means that no matter how happy you are in your marriage, no matter how long you've been married, no matter how sure you are of your husband's love and devotion, even if your husband doesn't make Instagram videos where he says he's tempted to sleep with multiple beautiful women, right? No matter what, your husband can still have an affair. And so you can never trust him. You can never be sure. And in The Great Sex Rescue, we surveyed 20,000 women for it. We didn't measure this question about infidelity exactly, although we did have some quite similar questions. But we did a lot. We we pulled a lot of stats on the idea that all men struggle with lust. It's Every Man's Battle. And the more a woman believed that no matter what, her husband was going to lust after other women, her libido dropped, her orgasm rates dropped, her marital satisfaction dropped. And when we did our matched pair, like we found that, too. You know, like, even if he didn't have any signs of this, if she couldn't trust him because of these messages, the marriage was worse. So, like, telling women this, hurts women. 

Keith
Yeah. And even if it were true, even if it were true. Which it’s not. It's not a helpful message. 

Sheila
Right. Okay. So that's one thing. 

Keith
So why is it being spouted so much? 

Sheila
Yeah. And this is the thing, come back to that question. Put it put a pin in that question because we're going to come back to that. The second thing that is being said a lot is we are all equally sinners. 

Keith
Yes. The sin leveling. 

Sheila
Okay. Yeah. We need to remember that you are no better and Tullian Tchividjian actually said that we all have adulterous hearts. And so when one woman challenged him in the comments saying, don't you understand how much this hurts people? He said, your adulterous heart in judging me is just as bad, right? So, so by speaking up and saying this, this hurts women, you are sinning just as bad as the person who committed adultery. That is the idea. And to support this, they use really, really, really bad scriptural arguments. One of them is Tchividjian was talking about the sermon on the Mount and how Jesus was the ultimate sin leveler because in the sermon on the Mount he said, if you even look at a woman with lust, you've already committed adultery. So the person who looks is as bad as the person committing adultery. And so he uses that to say, you can't judge the person committing adultery because you are just as bad. That is not what Jesus meant. 

Keith
No, and anybody with any sense and any, like, compassion in their heart for a person who's been cheated on would never say that.

Sheila
Right. Exactly. 

Keith
Like the hardness of his heart. Right. Anyways. Just drives me crazy. 


Sheila
But Jesus was saying that because so many of the religious teachings were so self-righteous, right? They would see a woman and they would cross to the other side of the street because she was unclean or something. And he was saying, no, no, no, she's not the problem. You are. He was defending women by saying that. And today's infidelity pastor, clergy, sexual abuse guys are using that same passage to get themselves off the hook and make the women who say I'm hurt look like the the evil doers. Because they're forgetting that in multiple other places Jesus said that there's a hierarchy of sins in many ways, like that certain sins are going to be judged more harshly. He says, like things like, you know, it'll be worse for you than for Sodom and Gomorrah on the Day of Judgment. 

Keith
Right. It would be better if a millstone was around your neck and you were cast into the sea? 

Sheila
Yes. Just because sin separates us all from God does not mean that we are all equally sinners. It does not mean, like.

Keith
Like, does he actually think that a person having a lustful thought and fantasizing about having an adulterous affair in their mind is actually just as bad as having an affair. 

Sheila
Yeah, I believe he does think that. 

Keith
That's disgusting. 

Sheila
Yeah. I believe he does believe that. 

Keith
It's not just thought in his heart like that's a sin against God for sure. But it's between him and God. He hasn't hurt another person other than that person he's fantasizing because he's kind of diminished their image. But like destroy your marriage and actually have an affair. Like, you know, unless you just don't care about the suffering women, they're not the same. Oh wait. Yeah. And they don't care about the suffering women know.

Sheila
Exactly. And I got into so many social media conversations about this where people were saying, well, you know, you were just being so judgmental. And God told us not to judge. Well, let's look at what Jesus said in Matthew seven. Right. So he says, he tells us not to judge. And that's the if you have a plank in your own eye.

Keith
Yeah. Sorry. I interrupted you. I find this one hilarious because when other people who come from different Christian traditions tell them to stop judging their pet sins, the sins that they say are so horrible. And someone from another Christian tradition says, you know, don't be so judgmental. They say, don't you twist that Bible verse to make it mean what it's not supposed to mean, to judge these people because they're sinners. But then they say, then they use that verse to excuse adultery, which is one of the ten, like it’s in the ten commandments. And they use the don’t judge verse to justify it. But they won't let, just the inconsistency is mind boggling. 

Sheila
Okay. Now you've memorized the sermon on the Mount, so I should get you to do this.

Keith
That was a long time ago, oh my gosh.

Sheila
But yeah. But the Matthew seven like it's, it's, you know, you have a plank in your own eye and you should take the plank out and then you'll be able to..

Keith
Able to better see the speck in your eye. Yeah. Yeah. Because, because I think part of that too, is that helping people who are making mistakes from a position of humility can be very beneficial. Right. I'm like, dude, you got a splinter in your eye. I, I'm not judging you because I just pulled a plank out of mine, which is why I can see it. Yeah, right. So, like, I am coming from position of humility. That's the point of that thing. 
Sheila
Yeah. And then what's the very next verse after that, Keith?

Keith
And then it talks about not throwing your pearls before swine. And not giving what was sacred to the dogs. 

Sheila
Right. So that's the very next verse. So Jesus says don't judge. But then he says don't throw your pearls before swine. So how are you supposed to know if they're swine, unless you're like, judging. 

Keith
It’s not saying don't give up discernment. Right? It's saying, just remember you're going to be judged the way you judge other people. And if I judge someone by saying, look, you're not as good as you could be, you're making a mistake here. This is, I want to help you be better. That's not judging. And when we say to Christian men, we should have wives that trust that we're not going to have affairs. We should be better than this. We're trying to encourage people to be better. That's not judgmental. Saying to a woman who says, hey, women are being hurt by this. Shut up. You're just as bad as me. Is not, like, that's what Jesus is talking about. It's the exact thing Jesus is saying you should not do.

Sheila
Yeah, I know, it's just, it's wild. And this is the problem is like, I had one guy say to me, what's going to happen to you when you get into your scandal? Right? Like, people aren't going to be here to support you because you've told everyone it's okay to judge. And I'm like, you know, first of all, I really don't think I'm going to get into a scandal, most people don't. Like, think about everybody that, you know, who's 70, okay. How many of them have been in a scandal? Like how many of them have had an affair? Have you used a prostitute, have embezzled funds? I don't know, been in jail, like, it's not that many. And if you were in a church where everybody has, like, that could be a sign you're not in a safe place, unless you're in, like, a church of recovery or something. Okay? Like, this isn't that normal. And if I ever were in a scandal, then I would step back, like Philip Yancy did. And I wouldn't say people needed to support me. You know, I would hope that I wouldn't be a hypocrite. But like when you say this, I just want people to understand when you say all sin is the same, what you're really saying to a victim of whether it's clergy sex abuse or infidelity or whatever, is if you are still hurt, that is now a you problem because you need to remember that you are just as bad as the person who hurt you. And so you do not give any room for people to actually be hurt, or to be heard or to heal. You're not giving any room for justice or accountability. This is the problem with cheap grace. And the New Testament is so against cheap grace, like the Bible is all about justice over and over and over again. And Jesus stood up for the oppressed. And so when we turn around and we say to women, you know, don't you realize that you are just as bad as him? You're saying you have no right to be upset that he broke his marriage vows, and that's why this matters. And the fact that so many pastors parroted this made me sick, because do you not realize how unsafe you are making church for women like? And do you not even care? Because I don't think they do. Because when I spoke up to so many, they just said, well, that's the truth. And women need to get used to it. That's what the Bible says. 

Keith
Yeah, that’s their default. Because again, coming back to women matter just as much as men. They’re just not willing to go there. Because if they're willing to go there, they have to say that, yeah, this is not fair, we set up a system where men are privileged over women and, and we have to dismantle that. Which is what those of us on this side are trying to do. We're not saying that, you know, men are bad or that women should be in charge and men shouldn’t. We're saying that we should be equals and we should be, we should all be held to the same standard, and we should all be trying to follow Christ.

Sheila
Yeah. And it's just, you know, in so many of these churches where women are not in leadership, you can tell, you know, because if women had been in leadership, I don't think that pastors could get away with saying, I just want to sleep with multiple beautiful women. And I don't think pastors could get away with saying that we're all the same and so whether you watch child sexual abuse materials or whether you sped on the highway or lied on your taxes and didn't declare that tip you got once, like, we're all the same. No, we're not. And so we need to start asking ourselves, like, who does this benefit? Yeah, because a lot of this stuff, it benefits men who want to get away with it. Right? Men who want to be able to turn everything around so the people calling men to account are now the ones who are in trouble. Right? So it's major DARVO. It's like, you know, it's turning everything around so that if you accuse me of being bad or of not treating women well, you are now the problem because you're accusing me of anything in the first place because we're all equally bad, right? So men who want to get away with it, who want to get away with porn use, who want to get away with lust, etc. they're the ones putting forth all these messages, or pastors and men who want to make sure that none of their buddies are going to fall. Right? Because if you want to make sure that there's no scandals in your church, the elders board is never going to get attacked, even if your elders board is filled with terrible people. The way you do that is you just make sure that people know that men can't be attacked for these things, you know? 

Keith
All this sin level and this it could be you too is basically just a way of closing ranks around the people who currently have all the reins of power. 

Sheila
Yeah. Which is wild. Okay, that's in Hades. I know, but this is like, this has been a couple of weeks like, I mean, and it's not just, I mean, it's the world too. Like, please don't let there be World War III. Like, let's leave Greenland alone. I really don't want to be at war with my neighbors to the south, which is what will happen if the U.S. invades Greenland, Canada and the US will be at war. Like, I really do not want that. Like the whole world has gone crazy in the last few weeks, right? One more article. Are you ready? Okay, okay. This one's written by someone from Toronto. Which makes me sad, you know, because, like, I feel like

Keith
Oh, it’s a bad pastor from Canada?

Sheila
Yeah, it's like Toronto, come on, I grew up in downtown Toronto. This is my town. And still bad takes from everywhere, I guess. But okay, so this is an article by Tim Challis, pastor from Toronto. Heavy Calvinist, has done lots for the, I think, the gospel Coalition. He moves all in those circles. Okay. And he wrote to those who married poorly and I'll read, I want to read, it's not overly long, so I want to read and then get your reaction, okay?

Keith
So will he just define marrying poorly pretty quickly? 

Sheila
Yeah. Yeah. 

Keith
That I don't know what that means.

Sheila
Okay. So he says some marriage is the stuff of fairy tales and some are not. Some husbands, marry wives who respect them, and some wives marry husbands who love them as Christ loved the church and some do not. The sad fact is that some people marry well and some marry poorly. What do I mean by marry poorly? This could refer to a couple who fell in love and married hastily, far too quickly, to consider whether it was really wise to join these two lives together. And in time they learned it was probably not. It could refer to a couple who ignored parents or pastors when they expressed deep concerns about their incompatibility. Time has proven these concerns valid. It could refer to a person who married another while assuming certain troubling behaviors would change. Yet years later, they have not. In these ways, and so many more, people can conclude they may have married someone to whom they were not well suited. And then he puts a caveat in a footnote and says that a difficult marriage is different from an abusive marriage and he didn't mean to speak of abusive marriages here, but difficult ones. Okay, okay, not in the text, but in a footnote. 

Keith
Yeah, yeah. Okay. So the first point is he's basically talking about how you're either a woman who respects your husband or you're not. Or you're a man who loves his wife like Christ or you're not.

Sheila
Yeah. 
Keith
As opposed to these are day to day behaviors. You know, first of all, we should both have both. But even if it was that way, that these are day to day behaviors that can get better or worse with time, right? Right. Yeah. Like, so it's like, it's just crazy, like the idea that now you're stuck with a non respecting woman or a non loving. As opposed to how do you help your

Sheila
Well, and that's what I want to talk about a minute. Yeah. So put a pin in that, put a pin in that. We're going to come back to that in a second okay. So yeah. So he's saying that he could have married. He's saying this isn't about abuse. But then he's talking about problematic behaviors that have continued, which is like I mean, to me that probably means, you know, porn use or they haven't gotten therapy for their outbursts or stuff that really, actually can be abusive if it happened. But whatever. He has a very poor theology of abuse. But leave that for a minute because, while this is terrible if you are in an abusive marriage, that's not actually what I want to talk about today, because obviously everything these guys say is terrible if you're in an abusive marriage. 

Keith
Yes. It’s gas on the fire. 

Sheila
Yeah, absolutely. And we've talked about that in plenty of podcasts. I actually want to bring up something else as I read this. So as I'm reading this, keep in mind here's the question that I want to ask you. Ask yourself, okay? What steps is he telling people to take if they have married poorly to make their marriage better? 

Keith
Okay. What's the solution? 

Sheila
What is the solution he's going to offer? Okay, so he's writing this to people who have married poorly. Now, what is he offering you? What is he saying that's going to make your life better? And he says, of course, those who marry well and those who marry poorly are equally married in the eyes of God and are responsible for him to make the most of that marriage. And he says how it's not grounds for divorce just because you're incompatible, etc. to those who have had to conclude that they married poorly, I offer my sympathy. I am glad you are admitting what you are admitting, as it can be helpful to simply state this if, even if only in your own mind. Of course, the main matter is what you intend to do about it. Okay, I agree yeah. What are you gonna do about it? All right. “I offer this counsel, bare patiently with your marriage and make the best of it, that you can know that even if this coupling may have been unwise, it's still happened within the bounds of God's providence. God made no mistake in allowing it to go forward, and he makes no mistake in insisting that you remain within it. Your calling from God is now to glorify him, despite this difficulty, to patiently endure, to fulfill your role within the marriage, even if your spouse fails to fulfill his or hers, God's will is for you to be Christlike in your love, even when your spouse is not. His will for you is that you commit to repenting of the least sin on your part and to the greatest degree possible, behave righteously in all things. Do your utmost to ensure you are not the cause of the greater trouble, and that you labored to make your love genuine and to outdo your spouse in showing honor.” 

Keith
Okay, can I say something? 

Sheila
Yes. 

Keith
So these people that teach that men are supposed to lead sacrificially, like Jesus, and women are supposed to respect and submit to them, they always say the man has a harder job. Right? Okay. So what this article is saying though, it’s saying he needs to love like Christ and she needs to respect and maybe marry someone who isn’t like that. What's his advice to both of them? To both of them, is your love should be like Christ's. Yeah. So she has to respect him and love him like Christ. He has to love her like Christ and not respect her necessarily. She has to be more than him. Like she she has to do more than he does. He doesn't have the harder job. She has his job and her job. Like it's all crazy. It's all gaslighting all the way down. So that was just a sideline.

Sheila
No, I think that's a really good point. I hadn't seen that. But you're absolutely right. Yeah okay. So basically what he's saying is 

Keith
We believe that both love each other like Christ and they should both respect each other. 

Sheila
Yeah. So what he's saying is you're in this terrible marriage, you're not happy. So what you have to do is make the best of it and you have to be exemplary in your behavior and don't make anything worse. Right. Okay. And then he goes on and says this. It could be that God chooses to work within your marriage in such a way that it becomes as joyful as you wish it would be. It could be that God chooses to keep it just as difficult as it is today. So if you're because it's difficult, it's because God is choosing your marriage to be miserable. That's what he honestly believes. If your marriage is difficult, it's because God wants it to be difficult. Either way, God is sovereign and does all things for your good and his glory. Even when that is difficult to see or believe. Either way, your marriage is the context in which he calls you to prove your love, your faithfulness, and your godly character. So how is this comfort? So hey, I know you married poorly and I know you're miserable, but guess what? God is choosing for you to be miserable isn't that good news? Isn't that good news everybody? Like this is such a poor view of God and of Scripture. And I just can't believe these people can't see through it. Like God gives us all free will. Okay, what is God's will? It is God's will that none of us should perish. It is God's will that we be transformed to the likeness of Christ. Romans 8:29 right. It is God's will that we all be Christlike. That's what God's will is. So if you're in a miserable marriage, it means that somebody isn't doing God's will. It doesn't mean that God has stuck you there.

Keith
This is the whole thing is they're jealousy tor the glory of God does not allow them to, like, actually have human will like God ordains everything, including the bad things that happen to you. God wanted that to happen to you. It's horrific. But we’re not a theological podcast, so we should stay away from that.

Sheila
Right, so here we go. “Know that God means to encourage, support and sustain you as you bear it and know that the grace will annul both the easiest marriage and the hardest, the happiest, and the saddest, so that in eternity you will lack nothing you would have experienced if only a marriage had been all that you wished it could be.” How many times have you heard this in Christian books? Emerson says it in Love and Respect. There's a billion angels that are. What do they do? Like they knock on the handle and pulling on a lever. Every time, every time he literally says it's a billion angels pull a lever every time a woman respects a disrespectful man. Gary Thomas talks about how, you know, in heaven you're going to get your reward for staying with this terrible person. and here he is again saying, don't worry, because heaven is going to notice. It's like God cares about the here and now people he does. Jesus cares about the here and now. Christianity is not just about getting to heaven so that we will have this eternal reward. Christianity is about life on earth too. Like, look at how many miracles Jesus did that had to do with our very bodies. He fed people. He healed people. He even gave us wine at a party, right? Like, he cares about the here and now. And our theology is just so poor. 

Keith
Absolutely. And the Bible defines love as action. Right? How you treat other people and how you care about other people like in James, he says if you see someone is suffering and you say to them, go be warm and well-fed and do nothing to alleviate their suffering, you're not showing love. Like that is not, that is worthless faith. So they have a faith that has made them become worthless to care for other people. Because all he's saying to this poor woman who's suffering in a horrible, or man even, who's suffering in a horrible marriages, don't worry, one day you'll be dead. It’ll all be better then. 

Sheila
Yeah, yeah. Let me read the last sentence. 

Keith
It's. This is the most unloving way of doing things. 

Sheila
Okay, let me just read the last paragraph. Okay? Okay. “It is better by far to love and appreciate each other here and now. But if through no doing of your own that cannot be the case, then take heart and have hope for the longest marriage is but momentary, and the hardest marriage is but a light affliction when compared to the eternal weight of glory that will be yours when Christ calls you home.” Momentary afflictions. Okay, let's talk about Romans eight, where it talks about this. This is the context of persecution, right? It's in the context of the church having these problems from outside that they can't do anything about. And Paul is comforting them, saying, you know what? This light and momentary affliction is nothing compared to the eternal glory that's going to be revealed in you. And that's a wonderful thing to say to people who are being persecuted. And I think about the people in Iran right now, we're filming this two weeks ago, I pray that when this podcast comes out, the regime has fallen. You know, I think about people who are being persecuted all over the world. And those are such incredible words. Persecution should not come from your spouse. Especially a spouse who claims to be a Christian. It's supposed to be something that we're enduring from outside. Okay, your spouse should be your anchor in the storm. Your spouse should not be the cause of the storm. And it really bugs me. But here's the bigger thing that's getting me about this whole article. There's actually solutions when your marriage is poor, there's things that you can do. And he never mentions any of them. He just tells people to put up with it and to be super good and super nice anyway. But there's things you can do. You can draw boundaries. 

Keith
The reason he doesn't offer any solutions is, the only solutions are women you need to respect him more. And men you need to be more Christ like in your love. And that's it. If that doesn't work, they've got nothing. Right?

Sheila
Yeah. And because they value male hierarchy so much, they cannot advocate for the things that we know actually work in marriage, which is women learning how to set boundaries especially. 

Keith
But both men are women learning how to set boundaries. But in these environments you're specifically told not to 

Sheila
And that you can't speak up. And so the only solution they have is don't worry, one day you're going to be dead and you'll be in heaven. Because they would rather teach women that then tell women, okay, when he's treating you badly, that matters, and your safety matters. Your emotional safety matters. Because we know that women who are victims of emotional abuse and neglect, that that actually becomes physical after several decades. And you see autoimmune disorders skyrocket. You see lots of physical ailments that have their roots in the stress. So even though, like you, it's very difficult to actually differentiate physical abuse from emotional abuse because both of them have physical repercussions. You know? And so like but he doesn't he doesn't say boundaries. He doesn't say speak up for yourself. He doesn't say, you know, go get help. He doesn't say, maybe you need to separate for a while. He doesn't say, you know, maybe you need to take control of the finances if he's getting you into debt. Or maybe you need to get your own bank account and start, you know, piling up your own money so that you have a nest egg so you can leave if you have to. He doesn't say anything that has actually been shown to change the dynamic in the marriage so that the other person realizes, oh, this is bad, I've got to do something because my spouse might actually leave or, you know, my spouse isn't going to put up with my crap anymore. He doesn't say any of that. Instead, he just tells you to keep putting up with the crap and to be super nice about it so that you're not the cause of any problems. You know, and sometimes you need to be the cause of problems because you need to rock the boat. You need to say, I am not going to put up with this anymore. And if you're wondering how to do that, take a look at The Marriage You Want. Okay. We've got so many things in there and there's a curriculum that goes along with it. There's a study guide, there's premarital questions, there's a video series. I'll put a link to all of it in the podcast notes, but it is a book that shows you this is what actually goes into creating a good marriage instead of, you know, instead of just stay until you die. We're not trying to get you to stay in a marriage you hate. We're trying to get you to create a marriage that you love. 

Keith
Yeah, and part of that, too, is being mature in your thinking and being emotionally mature. And this whole idea of men being in charge of women makes men emotionally immature. 

Sheila
It really does. 

Keith
This is the thing, is we're not bashing men, like, I think men are capable of great, like, great things. And but the problem is when you create a system where men are given this privileged position and to see their wife as an equal is considered a demotion. Like, when we talk about two Christians who are equal before God following Jesus together. This evangelical world calls that a two headed monster. Like the idea of a man being in charge of his wife to them is a better picture than two equals following Christ together. Like when you create a system like that, you're going to have sucky marriages, I’m sorry. 

Sheila
Yeah, well, and our research, found that too. 

Keith
So that's why there's all these articles in these places about what to do when your marriage is sucky. Yeah. And the answer is basically just do the same thing we're telling you to do. And then when that doesn't work, it's like, well, you can't get divorced. Remember? You can't get divorced. And then as well, it's like, well, someday you'll be dead and it'll be fine. Like it's because the whole point is, let's go back to the beginning and say, this is not working and it's not working because of our foundation of the marriage, which is hierarchy as opposed to equality.

Sheila
Yeah, you know, you and I did a podcast right when The Marriage came out on the five point plan that complementarians have that is in almost all marriage books and in almost all marriage articles. And let's just look at that plan, okay? So first of all, it's that men are in authority over women, right? And from that flows, the reason they're in authority over women is because the genders are so different that they can't understand each other. Men and women are completely different creatures. Your problems in marriage are because you expect too much. So just stop expecting so much. Marriage is hard and God meant it to make you holy, not happy. That's definitely here in this article. And marriage is for life. You can't ever get divorced. But don't worry because your reward is in heaven. And we see, like, basically all those things that are in this article, right? Like men need respect, women need to give them respect. Like it's all here. And because they don't have anything else, because when you start with the premise that men are in authority over women, you don't have anything else to offer. Because what really makes a marriage strong is when there's real intimacy and partnership, intimacy and partnership cannot be present when a man is in authority over a woman. And so they actually have no way of building a happy, healthy marriage. The only reason that some of these people have happy, healthy marriages is because they may believe it, but they don't act it out, and so they actually function as egalitarian while saying they believe in complimentarianism. But when you actually act out complementarianism, it is impossible to have an intimate partnership marriage. And so they have no tools to give you. And it's just, it's just so obvious that the emperor has no clothes, you know? 

Keith
Yeah. 

Sheila
And over and over again, this is what women, you know, we look at all three, all three things like the bar for men is in Hades. Right? Because, yeah, if he doesn't have an affair, let's give him a round of applause, because we all know he wanted to, but he didn't. You know. 

Keith
And most men who aren't in these circles see this and feel insulted by this teaching. Like the ones who get offended when we talk like this. Like, they're not the men that I really care about. Like when men come at me and say well you just hate men and they get mad about a podcast like this. It's like, yeah, you're an immature little boy. Like, cause the men who actually see women as equals, the men who actually want their wives to be full partners. Like, they don't get attacked by a podcast like this. They're actually insulted and ashamed of the teaching that's causing you to have to make a podcast like this. Because men are capable of doing this. Men can be full partners. Men can, you know, bring everything that God has given them to the table. And it's just so sad that we don't expect more. 

Sheila
Yeah. And I also want to say, I totally agree with that. But just as we're wrapping up, I also want to say, just from a purely theological standpoint, this view of God is so sad, like God is not a monster. In this view. Well, actually, all the views we've looked at today that, that God sees someone who had an eight year affair as being, you know, just as bad as you, who is angry that he had an eight year affair, like that, makes God into someone that you can't go to with your problems because he doesn't understand you, because a God who is looking at you saying, why are you so upset? Don't you realize everyone has sinned equally? Is not a God that you can rely on for anything. And so they are, they are stealing Jesus from people. And now Tim Challis turns around and says, if you're in a miserable marriage it’s because God wants it that way, and you should rejoice that in his sovereignty he has done that. And it's like, God doesn't want your marriage to be miserable. He really doesn't. That's not his will for you. And I wish we could get away from these toxic theologies, because not only are they wrecking marriage, they're stealing God from people. And gosh, we can do better. So if you're in a church that teaches that, just know there's churches that don't. There's churches that teach you that Jesus, is there and he actually cares about you. And he does want you to flourish, and he does want you to get over the porn problem. And he wants your husband to get over the porn problem where you like whoever, whatever, like he cares about you in the here and now and he bottles up your tears, scripture tells us. Like, he does care when you're being hurt and he doesn't think that you're invisible and he doesn't think that you don't matter because you're a woman. And I just think some people need to hear that. And I hope we all get to churches that are teaching that instead of teaching this garbage.

Keith
Yup. Amen.

Sheila
So remember, February 5th, our podcast series launches Happily Never After - The Curious Case of Love and Respect. So excited about that. Thank you so much to our patrons and especially to the donors, to The Good Fruit Faith Initiative of the Bosco Foundation who funded us and made this possible. And if you want to help finance more things that we're doing like this, we're going to put a link to The Good Fruit Faith Initiative in the podcast notes. You can get a tax deductible receipt in the United States, but if you just want to come on board and help us with what we're doing, please join our Patreon. It's a super fun place. You can join for just $5 a month and be part of our fun Facebook group, get behind the scenes things, Joanna's doing a huge book club right now. It's super fun and yeah, we would love to have you because together we can change the conversation about sex and marriage in the evangelical church. Amen. See you next week.

Keith
Bye.