Episode 319: Did Purity Culture Cause Developmental Trauma--and Kill Libido?

What if the reason so many women struggle with desire, arousal, and orgasm has nothing to do with their bodies—and everything to do with what they were taught before they even wanted to be sexual? In this episode, Rebecca and I pull together research and real-life stories to trace a thread that runs from how we raise our daughters, to what happens on the wedding night, to why so many women are secretly faking it.

THANKS TO OUR SPONSOR:

To Heal or Harm: Scripture's Use as Poison or Medicine for Abuse Survivors by Dr. Steven Tracy. How to refute it when Bible verses are weaponized!

TO SUPPORT US: 

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LINKS MENTIONED: 

• Our Orgasm Course and Boost Your Libido Course
• Love and Respect Docu-Series
• Research Paper: "Sexual Passion in Adolescence: Examining Its Transmission Through Mothers"
• Research Paper: "Do Women Withhold Honest Sexual Communication When They Believe Their Partner's Manhood Is Threatened?"
• Instagram Thread by Ally Jolie (somatic psychologist, UK)
• Podcast episode on men projecting sexual attention-seeking onto girls

Transcript

Sheila
I’m Sheila Wray Gregoire from BareMarriage.com, where we like to talk about healthy, evidence-based biblical advice for your sex life and your marriage. I'm joined by my daughter, Rebecca Lindenbach.

Rebecca
Hello. Hello. 

Sheila
And we are going to talk about how to help our daughters especially develop a healthy view of sexuality as they grow up. And this is going to be an experiment.

Rebecca
Okay. Which always makes me super comfortable to hear.

Sheila
Because what I do is I get sent some really interesting stuff and I'm like, oh, I really, really want to use that somewhere. But sometimes it's like, there's not enough for an entire podcast. I'm not sure what to do with it. And, and I realized in looking at 3 or 4 different things today, there's a thread. There's a thread that runs through them all. I'm going to, I'm going to believe there's a thread. I’m gonna try to create a story out of these things that are all going to flow.

Rebecca
And maybe the thread will be the friends that we make along the way.

Sheila
This is kind of like what Rebecca and Joanna did with each of our “Love and Respect” episodes. The docuseries is like, “What is the story we're trying to tell in this episode?” And if you haven't seen that docuseries it released last month, and it did really well, we're very happy with it. We got some great feedback, so we do check that out. The link is in the podcast notes. And of course, it was the money, the donations from all of you that made that happen. So thank you to everyone who donated to the Good Fruit Faith Initiative. And thank you especially to our patrons, who just are there for us and our Facebook group, who get lots of extra perks. Like.

Rebecca
I think they're going through, They have a, Joanna's been in, in 2026, since December 2025. Joanna is now doing a monthly book club with patrons that is exclusive to patrons. We talk so much about how to train critical thought and how to, just learn how to think in a way that means that we can see through the craft when we're presented with it. And Joanna is doing a fantastic job of this really fun book club. They went through Animal Farm in February, and then I think she and my husband, Connor, are actually doing an in-depth media analysis of some songs in March because she had people reading a 500 page Victorian novel and then Orwell, she's given y'all a break, okay? She's going to be like, listen to music now.
Sheila
Yes, so that is what’s happening in our Patreon group and yeah, we have a lot of fun there. And of course, thank you to our sponsor. The book “To Heal or Harm: How Scripture…” I always get subtitles wrong, “How Scripture can be used either as poison or as medicine” for us. So really important book. You know, because so many people, it's like, if you can't show them a verse that says exactly that, they won't believe you, you need a verse for everything. And you know, what Doctor Stephen Tracy does is he shows that even from a conservative standpoint, you simply cannot justify using the Bible to condone abuse, to tell abused women they have to stay in abusive marriage, to say that you have to agree with abusive leadership in churches and stay in an abusive church like he does it. He does a very good job in a way that people who are in that will understand and listen. So really appreciate that. So check that out in the podcast notes too.  And now are you ready for my story?

Rebecca
One more thing. One more thing. I just need to say this. Anyone who's watching on YouTube is going to see I, I look, I look not great. It's because I have, I'm, I'm dealing with eyelid eczema. I can't wear makeup for the next little bit. And so I just wanted to say, if any of you have eczema or eczema, depending on if you're on the East Coast or West Coast. And you have tips on how to get rid of eyelid eczema, that's not Aquaphor or Vaseline because that's not working. Let me know. I'd like to not use steroids on my eyes. So just that, let's do some crowd-sourcing. I don't want to be itchy.

Sheila
Yeah, yeah. All right. Here's my story. Okay, so this is a paper, I'm going to start with a paper. From a journal. It is titled, are you ready: “Sexual Passion in Adolescence Examining its Transmission Through Mothers.”

Rebecca
Okay, that is a title.

Sheila
That is a title. And what it's really saying, okay. Here's what it's looking at. When you take adolescents. And you look at them as they grow up, you know, you want them to develop this healthy view of, of, of sexuality and they call that passion, like that we have three different approaches to passion. And they're like, what is it that helps kids develop a healthy view of passion? And so here's their three different types. This is really important to understand. They talk about first harmonious sexual passion. That's what we want. They say that this is autonomously regulated and involves feeling positive about one’s sexuality and comfortable engaging in sexual activities consistent with one's values. This facilitates positive experiences during sex.

Rebecca
Yeah, that's just healthy sexuality.
Sheila
Yeah. So that's what we all want. That's what we want in our marriages. That's just, that's just what we want. Okay. The key word there is, autonomously. Yeah. And that means that, like, this is like, you are the one that regulates your sexuality. Come, it's intrinsic to you.

Rebecca
Oh, so they not talking about, like, autonomous regulation, like the nervous system, like it's not out of panic and you're not, like, fawning.

Sheila
But. Yeah, that’s what they’re talking about, but like it's, it's it's like it's you. It’s not like you’re being pressured.

Rebecca
Yeah. You're not being swept along.

Sheila
There's no pressure on you. There's nothing that's cooling anything down. It's like, this is how you are. You are fully present. You're able to be fully present. Fully everything, okay. Then there's obsessive sexual passion.

Rebecca
Yeah. Okay.

Sheila
This is bad. You don't want this. This refers to a controlled motivational state of under regulated sexual functioning. It can involve ruminative... How do you say that? Ruminative. Ruminative, a ruminative ruminate…

Rebecca
Ruminative. Don't trust me. I was homeschooled, I learned how to read from. I know how to talk from books. Ruminative, ruminative…

Sheila
I know, me too. And because I get all my news online, like sometimes I'll find there's like some world leader that I totally know absolutely everything about. Like, I know their birthday. I know their, their spouse’s name. But I don't realize I'm pronouncing their name wrong. For like years, anyway. 

Rebecca
It’s embarrassing. It’s okay, it's either ruminative or ruminative. Let us know in the comments below.
Sheila
Or intrusive sexual thoughts and inability to control sexual impulses and felt pressure to engage in sexual activity.

Rebecca
I think what's interesting is the, the categorization of obsessive sexual passion as not just how we would see it typically, which is this is someone who's having a lot of sex, but about intrusive or unwanted sexual thoughts. That's not and, we'll get into that I know, so I'm not going to say anymore.

Sheila
Then there's inhibited sexual passion. Okay. Which refers to a controlled motivational state of overregulated sexual functioning. It is characterized by a reluctance to pursue one’s sexual desires as well as a hesitancy to act on sexual feelings. Okay. So, and what, and their point is that both obsessive and inhibited are actually externally, or extrinsically, how do you explain this.

Rebecca
Motivated. 

Sheila
Motivated. That’s the word. Yeah. So it's not coming from you. It's like you've got all of these different pressures on you and so inhibited, like you stay, you stay super in control all of the time.

Rebecca
Yeah. They're extrinsic. Yeah.

Sheila
And, and for all of these different reasons. And so you just have a really hard time engaging in sexual activity even if you want to.

Rebecca
I also want to say, like, I know a lot of people are already going to be like, but they’re children! Remember that the harmonious sexual passion is about engaging in sexual urges consistent with one's values. That includes things like making out or kissing or I'm assuming, because and in most sex research that I have read, sex is not about intercourse. It's about the whole physical relationship of feeling like the desire to touch and then to touch in whatever way is consistent with your values. People are not saying that healthy 13 year olds have uninhibited sex when they want it. That is not what this is saying. And this is talking about like the adolescent development as being consistent with your own values, not inhibited because you're afraid of punishment or, lacking impulse and doing things that you otherwise wouldn't want to. That's what it was talking about. Talking about, in essence, a harmony with the self. So this does not mean that they're saying healthy 15 year olds are. Having a lot of sex. What it means is that the sexual experiences of healthy teenagers are based on their values and their comfort doing things that they find comfort, that they are comfortable with, versus external threats, punishments or, a lack of, feelings of control around this.

Sheila
Yeah.

Rebecca
Sorry. I just wanted to say that clearly.

Sheila
That's very important.

Sheila
The Bible can be weaponized against abuse victims. Many of us have experienced this. And what makes it even more heartbreaking is that when we try to call it out, we're often accused of not believing Scripture. Well, enter the new book “To Heal or Harm” by Dr. Steven Tracy. He outlines all the verses that are weaponized and shows what God really wants instead. How Scripture is meant to heal and comfort, not support abusive power structures. Written from a conservative point of view, it can put pastors, church leaders, and others at ease and make them listen when sometimes they won't listen to us. Dr. Tracy speaks their language and he wants to call the church back to healing, not abusing. Check out “To Heal or Harm”. The link is in the podcast notes.

Sheila
Okay, I'm going to summarize stuff that is not earth shattering. That we can probably all guess. Okay. Which is the more you have harmonious sexual passion, the more likely you are to pass that on to your kids.

Rebecca
Yeah, which makes sense.

Sheila
So the healthier that you are as an adult. And this is really, this is the thread that I want to see go throughout this podcast.

Rebecca
Great. It's good for me to know that ahead of time so I can try to follow it.

Sheila
So the healthier that you are, the better it is. It also found that mothers tend to communicate with both boys and girls about sex more than fathers do. But they do communicate with their girls more.

Rebecca
Yeah.

Sheila
And often what the communication focus is on how to reduce risk. You know, which, like, that's that's good. But sometimes we can get over and what they're finding is the more parents are trying to control their kids, the more their kids are likely to develop the obsessive one.

Rebecca
Interesting. So not necessarily inhibited.

Sheila
Right.

Rebecca.
That is interesting.

Sheila
So the more you try to control your kids, make them shut everything down, make them never do anything. The more likely your kids are to act out in risky ways.

Rebecca
Or to have obsessive, unwanted, intrusive sexual thoughts.

Sheila
Exactly. So think about all the kids who you know are watching porn. Can't stop it. Like these, these things are all related to that kind of thing. Because sex isn't something which, which is an intrinsic part of you that you can, that you, that that flows out naturally into something which feels external to you, that is always attacking you. Or something like that. So, yeah. So the key thing is talk to your kids a lot.

Rebecca
Yeah.

Sheila
And be open with them. And you don't have to be perfect, but talk to them a lot. And if you need help with that, of course, The Whole Story can help. We have, we have a puberty and sex course for kids. It comes in for both boys and girls. It comes in the younger versions, sort of for 10-12 or 13 year olds and then for 13-15 or 16 year olds.

Rebecca
Yeah.

Sheila
And in the older version, we have a lot of cross teachings. Where some of the videos are the same because girls and boys need to hear the same stuff.

Rebecca
And where you're being taught from both a girl and a boy because first of all, we wanted to, we wanted it to be clear that like for to the girls that there are men out here who are also saying things like boys have self-control. And we also wanted boys to learn from women as well. So we wanted to make sure that, like in the older course especially, when like you’re past the embarrassment of the stuff, when it's not embarrassing anymore, you're just dealing with this in a social level in the same way, that it's, it's you're modeling, hearing from both men and women because we just thought that was a really big change that we wanted to make to the course. And I'm happy we did.

Sheila
Yeah. Okay. So key findings. Alright. Frequency of sexual discussions explained the mechanism of transmission of harmonious sexual passion from parents to child. So increased openness is a good thing.

Rebecca
Yeah. Exactly. So pretty much is like, it's not that these parents were healthy sexually. And then just by osmosis, their children were also healthy, is that parents who are healthy sexually tend to just be more open to talking to their kids about this stuff. That's kind of what that's, that's what I understand from that.

Sheila
So parental control, so this is when you're trying to control your kids, explained the transmission of obsessive passion. So the goal here is to have more reciprocal conversation. So you're not just talking to your kids. You're having an actual conversation.

Rebecca
Yeah.

Sheila
This is interesting. They found no clear mechanism for inhibited passion. And more research is needed. And Joanna was like, “We can do that!”

Rebecca
We can do that research. 

Sheila 
We have a lot of that. And ultimately these findings suggest that a mother’s sense of autonomy and comfort with their sexuality could help children develop harmonious sexual passion.

Rebecca
Which is great. And I mean that, that. That is common sense, right? We already know this. If we are healthy, it's easier to transmit healthier teachings to our kids. And that's why it's so important to deal with our stuff.

Sheila
Exactly. Okay. So that was exhibit A, I want to now do exhibit B. Somebody sent me this Thread. On Instagram. And I was blown away by the brilliance of it.

Rebecca
Okay. Great.

Sheila
It just, it just raised some thoughts that I've had, but I've never, I've never put them into words before. And I just thought it was really well done. So I'm going to link to the Thread. It's by a woman named Ailey Jolie from the United Kingdom. She's a psychologist. She says she's guiding you back to your body. She is a somatic psychologist and supervisor. And so that's where she works from. 

Rebecca
Cool. 

Sheila
Okay, so I want to read this. And again I will put the link in the podcast notes. “The orgasm gap conversation often misses something crucial. What happens when your body learns it's a sexual object before you learn you’re a sexual being?” Okay. Early sexualization of children here is what we’re talking about.

Rebecca
Yeah.

Sheila
“We talk about the orgasm gap like it's about technique,communication or education. All true, all valid. But it's actually one of the things that happens to a nervous system raised under the male gaze. The real issue: women don't have an orgasm problem. Women have been sexualized before you could claim your own sexuality problem.”

Rebecca
That's interesting. Yeah.

Sheila
“The orgasm gap is real. But it's often not a problem with women's bodies. It is what happens when you're sexualized before you can claim your own sexuality. When we talk about sexual trauma we often focus on event based trauma, moments of violation that could be pointed to. But so much of sexual trauma is developmental trauma, and developmental trauma is different. Developmental sexual trauma is what happens when objectification occurs while your nervous system is still learning what safety is. It is being sexualized before you understand your sexuality. It is learning your body's value through others’ desire. It is absorbing the message that your body exists for consumption before you can claim it as your own.” Now I want to stop right here. I’ll read some more in a minute. But does this sound like anything to you?

Rebecca
Yeah. I mean, it sounds very much like Dannah Gresh and all of the purity culture stuff for sure.

Sheila
Yeah. Like, remember, and we've talked about this before when we wrote our book, “She Deserves Better,” we analyzed a lot of the materials that the evangelical church was learning, was using, to train teen girls. And one of them was the “Secret Keeper Girl” curriculum.

Rebecca
Yeah. Which is for children 8 to 12.

Sheila
8 to 12. And it had this raise and praise test where you had to put your arms in the air and if any belly showed, that was bad because bellies are intoxicating. Moms were supposed to have a conversation with their daughters to explain what intoxicating was. And it was when men get out of control like they're drunk or under dental anesthetic. 

Rebecca
Yeah.

Sheila
So imagine being eight years old and you probably can imagine this, actually. And realizing that men are going to be out of control looking at your belly button when you're still at the age where you kind of like running in the back yard with sprinklers.

Rebecca
You still have Barbies. You still have multiple years of Barbies still in front of you.

Sheila
Yeah, yeah. And how horrifying that is. And I mean, like, one of the questions that I often see reels of on Instagram was like, when was the first time somebody made a comment about your body? How young were you? And most women are like, I was six, I was seven, I was eight, I was nine. You know when you realize that even little, little comments, you know like.


Rebecca
Oh she's such a flirt.

Sheila
Yeah. Like I hate, I hate when we do that. Oh, look, look at you in that. In that skirt. All the boys are going to be looking at you in that skirt.

Rebecca
Yeah. Like what?

Sheila
When we do that to children, it's very confusing.

Rebecca
Yeah.

Sheila
Because kids are not.

Rebecca
Sexual.

Sheila
Sexual in that way yet. And this is one of the things that we talked about, like in, remember Shaunti Feldhahn's book.

Rebecca
“Through a Man’s Eyes”. Yeah.

Sheila
Yeah. How it had that bizarre passage.

Rebecca
About a three year old looking at lingerie models and saying that it made his tummy feel funny or something like that, and it was just like.

Sheila
And it's like that actually isn't.

Rebecca
Well, like they were normalizing this idea that a three year old is actually experiencing sexual arousal the same way that an adult would.

Sheila
And she actually said that male sexuality exists. 

Rebecca
Yeah, the male brain in even in, in our infants and toddlers and stuff is the implication. And it's like that's, that's not normal. Like sexual curiosity, 100% normal.

Sheila
Kids want to play doctor. It’s not a sexual thing. You know, they are just interested in that.

Rebecca
Yeah, yeah exactly. Yeah. 

Sheila
I have a horrible story that we will not share.

Rebecca
We’re not sharing. Yeah, everyone has a story, you know. But like this I think sexual curiosity monkeys is totally normal. But, attributing sexual desires and arousal that is adult onto children is not normal or healthy. So don't do it.

Sheila
And attributing also sexual, intentions to kids. Because that’s what we do. Think about, think about Josh. Remember Josh Howerton when he was talking about the shady little girl in the mini skirt? Yeah, in the church parking lot. And how much of a danger that shady little girl, so a child, posed to an adult man, because she was wearing a mini skirt. What that implies is that if a little girl is wearing a mini skirt, she is doing that deliberately to arouse a man. And that's what we often accuse girls of, especially girls who develop early.

Rebecca
And especially girls who are not white, especially. Specifically Latina and black girls in the States. There are so many studies that a black girl or a Latina girl can wear the exact same dress in school, and she's seen as trying to, like, get attention in a way that the white girl is not. And that is something that needs to be acknowledged. Because once you acknowledge the implicit bias, you can start to fight it.

Sheila
Yeah, yeah. And there's a, there's another, there's the other side on the Asian thing of the whole schoolgirl fetish.

Rebecca
Oh gosh. There's so much, like all I'm saying is that people are disgusting.

Sheila
But, but the problem is when you attribute intention. The thought that, oh, if a girl is dressed like that, she's inviting attention. No, look, she wasn't thinking about that at all. She just wanted to look cute.

Rebecca
Oh and there's that other really funny study we talked about a while ago on this podcast that the men who claim that teenagers and young girls are dressing for attention are far more likely to themselves be trying to get attention than the girls that they claim are trying to get attention. So it's projection. They wish people would look at them sexually. And so they think everyone wants to, wants people to look at them sexually. And so when people say stuff like that, recognize they're talking about themselves, not the kid.

Sheila
Yeah. I'll put a link to that podcast too. That was interesting.

Rebecca
Yeah.

Sheila
Okay. Let's keep going on this Thread. This isn't about remembering specific incidents. It's about your.

Rebecca
Autonomic.

Sheila
It’s about your autonomic nervous system developing in an environment where sexual visibility often meant being unsafe.

Rebecca
Yeah. Makes sense.

Sheila
Developmental trauma research shows us that when chronic stress occurs during identity formation, it doesn't just create memories, it shapes your nervous system’s baseline. This is why by the time you choose to be sexual, your autonomic nervous system has years of data suggesting that arousal and danger can arrive together. This isn't dysfunction. It's your body responding intelligently to what it learns. And she goes on to talk. But I'll put a link to the Thread.

Rebecca
Yeah. You can read. The whole thing is very interesting.

Sheila
And some of the later part is interesting too. But what she's saying is like when girls learn that before they even experience any sense of sexual arousal on their own, that they are already objectified and sexualized. Then arousal gets paired when it eventually does come or whatever, it all gets paired with danger. And so it's like then your nervous system has to turn on because you're in danger.

Rebecca
Okay. That's interesting. Yeah.

Sheila
If you think about what we just read about the inhibited sexual desire, it's that your nervous system is overregulated. Right? So this, I think this is some of what’s going on.

Rebecca
That can make a lot of sense. I also think that there's also 

Sheila
There’s the thread! I did the thread!

Rebecca
There’s the thread - good job. I also think that when we look at the studies I think that I will say, I think that it's a little bit. 

Sheila
It’s more nuanced.

Rebecca 
I'm going to disagree with her slightly here because she says, like, it's not just a physical issue, except that other studies have found that it really is. I think that what she's, tapped into is the reason why we end up in the physical issue. Like, like she's saying it's because of this. And I don't think it's because of this. I think it's because then when women do have sex, they don't orgasm. Why don't they orgasm? Because they don't get aroused. Why don't they get aroused? Because they don't believe their sexuality matters as much as the man's sexuality in the sexual encounter. So it's like she is correct. I also think that she's under emphasizing the importance of female arousal in orgasm and the physical aspects. And I do think that this is much more of an issue of likely what's happening. This is my personal opinion, and I might be wrong, but I think that it makes sense for it being. This is a profound socialization which primes girls to believe arousal is not for you. Arousal, something you must run from and that you must control and that he will experience with your body regardless of what you do. And so you need to make sure that it's done safely. And then those girls are less likely to be seeking their own pleasure in the sexual experience, and they're less likely to speak up, or they're more likely to figure, well, I mean, we'll just get this over with. Like, I think that's, that's likely what's going on here. I think it likely plays together. And she’d probably actually agree with that.

Sheila
But yeah, I think it also does the, you know, one of the one of the things that we've been looking at is the, the etiology of sexual pain disorders. That fact that women often experience sexual pain, like the evangelical women to a higher degree than the general population. Yeah. A lot of it is tied to modesty messages.

Rebecca
Yes.

Sheila
We found it's tied to obligation sex messages especially too. But it's also tied to modesty messages too. And I think these modesty messages that we give to and we don't just give them to teen girls, we give them to eight year old girls.

Rebecca
We know we give them to everyone. Yeah. 

Sheila
The shady little girl in the mini skirt. She’s not shady, Josh, she just exists in your presence.

Rebecca
She's just a kid.

Sheila
Yeah, yeah. And and like, like when we give girls those messages, it's like your body can put yourself in danger.

Rebecca
Yeah.

Sheila
And so. And so then your body is like, I don't want to do this because I don't want to be in danger, so I need to shut everything down.

Rebecca
Yeah.

Sheila
And I think that's related to some pain disorders and some arousal disorders as well. So it's really multifaceted. 

Rebecca
It is!

Sheila
Not everyone who got the modesty message developed sexual pain. No, but a lot of people do still have problems with arousal because yeah, you learn you learn that my arousal isn't important. Right. It's his because he's going to be out of control.

Rebecca
In fact it's important that I don't become aroused because if you want to stop it's safer to not even start. Because once a boy gets to a certain point he has to keep, he's going to keep going. According to Shaunti Feldhahn, who wrote one of the bestselling books for teen girls. 

Sheila
Yeah, like you want him to stop, it's safest to not even start.

Rebecca
Yeah.

Rebecca
And so it's just, this is this is the whole thing. It's like for a lot of women, it's not even just that, like, yours isn't as important. It's like it's actually vital. You don't, you don't get aroused.

Sheila
Yeah. And I also want to read these stats again because I just think that they are so wild.

Rebecca
From “The Great Sex Rescue” or “The Marriage You Want”?

Sheila
“The Marriage You Want”. 

Rebecca
Both books are blue, so when I see them at the side of my eye, I can’t tell which one you grab.

Sheila
For “The Marriage You Want”, Joanna and I, as we were talking about the survey, one of the things we really wanted to zero in on, that we didn't zero in on for “The Great Sex Rescue” survey was what happened on the wedding night. 

Rebecca
Yes.

Sheila
Okay, so I want you to picture these girls who have been sexualized, and you can picture them because you're probably one of them, right? You've been sexualized from the time you're eight, nine, ten, 11, 12 in the church. Told that these men can't help themselves around you, that, guys only want one thing, that once you get married, he's going to be desperate for sex. And so how does that affect the honeymoon for couples who wait for the honeymoon?

Rebecca
Yes. Right. So among couples who wait for the honeymoon.

Sheila
Yes. And I thought, this is really fascinating. I'm gonna read all this. Okay. So in 41% of couples, neither partner brought the other to orgasm before they tried penis in vagina sex.

Rebecca
Yes. Which is pretty typical.

Sheila
Yeah, yeah. In 25% of couples, both partners have brought the other orgasm.

Rebecca
Great. Okay. And that is good. Yeah.

Sheila
So, like, look.

Rebecca
That is an evidence-based approach to sex.

Sheila
Yeah. And one of the things we really talk about in “The Good Girl’s Guide to Great Sex” is and “The Good Guy’s Guide to Great Sex”. Figure out her arousal and orgasm before you try penis and vagina sex, please. Like, do this in the right order. And the book is now available in Spanish too.

Rebecca
So yes.

Sheila
Yes. In 24.9% of couples, only the husband had been brought to orgasm by his partner.


Rebecca
Yeah, great.

Sheila
Yeah, and in 8.5% only the wife had been.

Rebecca
Yeah.

Sheila
So we're more likely to bring him to orgasm.

Rebecca
We’re three times more likely.

Sheila
Than to bring her to orgasm. Yes. Before sex. So what that means is that 50% of men have been brought to orgasm by their spouse before penetrative sex, versus 34% of women.

Rebecca
Yeah.

Sheila
Okay, so who needs more stimulation to reach orgasm? Whose route to orgasm do we need to spend more time learning?

Rebecca
Yeah.

Sheila
Hers. But who do we prioritize? His. And then when we look at the actual first encounter that involved penis and vagina sex, so the first encounter. In 14% both partners climaxed. And this is climaxed from any way, it’s not like you had to climax… It’s just in an encounter. 

Rebecca
We didn't ask people what exactly they did during the penis.

Sheila
No, but we did specify, did you climax from any way in the first encounter that involved it. 


Rebecca
Yeah.
Rebecca
So they could have been also doing mixed methods kind of thing.

Sheila
But yes, in 11.6% neither orgasmed, and 1% only the wife did, but in 73% only the husband orgasmed. So yeah, I sat down and 87.3% of men, but only 15% of women orgasm the first time in the first encounter that they had.

Rebecca
With penis and vagina sex.

Rebecca
Which makes complete sense when we know with everything that we know about female arousal and orgasm, it's like, yeah, you kind of started on hard mode, friends. It's like.

Sheila
But like if you think about how that start then affects the rest of your marriage.

Rebecca
Yes.

Sheila
Because you already started assuming that his orgasm is more important than hers, and that makes him seem more sexual than she is. And then, you know, you go on with the honeymoon, you don't want him to feel bad. Maybe it's not quite working for you, but you're not quite sure what to say.

Rebecca
Well, and you're also still like it's your honeymoon. You just got married, you're still all lovey-dovey, and you're just kind of, like, in the high of it all. So even if it's not really working, you're still kind of like, yeah, it'll be okay.

Sheila
Yeah. Like so, like this, just this all sets up this situation where girls have been socialized from a very young age in evangelicalism. I mean, in our culture, in our wider culture, too. But especially in evangelicalism, you know that your body is a problem because men are out of control.

Rebecca
Yeah.

Sheila
And you need to stay in control because you're a girl and you can. And then your sexuality doesn't even belong to you because people were looking at you as a sexual being before you even wanted to be sexual. And they were attributing sexual motives to you like oh look she wore, she wore a V-neck shirt. She's trying to get the elders in the church to look at her.

Rebecca
Yeah.

Sheila
You know, and I still remember when, when my youngest was in grade 3 or 4 like she was, she was young. And a Sunday school teacher told me she had to stop wearing v-necks because of the men in the church. And Katie was like, I don't want to go to church anymore. Yeah. It's disgusting. I mean, can you imagine doing that to a child? Right. Like if you have to worry about the elders in your church looking at a child, the issue is not the child.

Rebecca
Nope.

Sheila
Seriously, what is going on here? And that is a red flag, by the way. Like if people are starting to tell you that, that grown men are going to be looking at children and we need to start asking if this church has pedophiles in it. That's, that's not okay. So yeah. So so we're just we're set up to have this very inhibited sexual passion, as it talks about, because you're overregulated, you are so in control, because you've had to be your whole life and so it's very, very difficult to let passion just take over you. Okay.

Rebecca
Do you know how the messages that you heard in high school affect you today? Well, like always, we did a study on it.

Sheila
Our book, “She Deserves Better,” is based on a study of 7000 women to find out how experiences in church as teens affect them today. And if you were still dealing with purity culture, baggage and garbage. This book is kind of like re parenting you and hearing the stuff that you should have heard then. But especially if you are raising daughters, get a hold of “She Deserves Better.”

Rebecca
Because really. We all deserve better. Check it out. The link is in the podcast notes.

Sheila
Okay. So here's another study. Yeah. This is going to be a little bit harder to, to thread the needle, but we're going to make it work.

Rebecca
We're going to make it work.

Sheila
So this one is from which journal?

Rebecca
It's from the Journal of Social Psychology and Personality Science.

Sheila
There you go. And it's called “Do Women Withhold Honest Sexual Communication When They Believe Their Partner's Manhood is Threatened?”

Rebecca
Oh, funny.

Sheila
Because we don't want to threaten anyone's manhood. Okay. And so I'm just going to read the abstract.

Rebecca
Sure.

Rebecca
It's abstract is really interesting, really interesting.

Sheila
And it's one of the few abstracts that I think people can understand.

Rebecca
I know so many of them are written, ours are too. Ours are rough.

Sheila
To be fair, even ours is. Ours is incomprehensible.

Rebecca
Yes. This is the thing, you just got to write it anyway. Let's just get into it.

Sheila
But I thought this is okay. So here we go. We explored whether women who perceive that their partner's manhood is precarious, i.e. easily threatened, censor their sexual communication to avoid further threatening their partner's masculinity. We operationalized women's perception of precarious manhood in a variety of ways. In study one, women who made more money than their partners were twice as likely as those who did not to fake orgasm. In study two, women's higher perceptions of partner's precarious manhood indirectly predicted faking orgasms more, lower sexual satisfaction and lower orgasm rates through greater anxiety and less honest communication. In study three, women who imagined a partner whose masculinity was insecure versus secure were less willing to provide honest sexual communication via anxiety, and together the studies demonstrate a relationship between women's perceptions of partner insecurity, anxiety, sexual communication and sexual satisfaction.

Rebecca
That's so interesting. Yeah.

Sheila
So let's talk about that first. Yeah, I think so. They basically did three different studies when they're trying to figure out okay. Like if you feel, if you as a woman, feel like the guy that you're with is insecure and anxious, will you tell him a little to the left. Yeah. That's really what it's saying. Like will you tell them hey I need more foreplay. Hey this isn't working for me. Hey can we do some more of this? Hey, this is what I really like. Like, will you do that? Because we know that in order for women to reach orgasm, one of the things she really, really needs to be able to do is to communicate during sex.

Rebecca
Yeah, but it seems like when women think that their partners aren't secure, they experience more anxiety, and therefore they don't communicate.

Sheila
And, one of the big ones, study number one was women who made more money than their partners were twice as likely to fake orgasm. That's fascinating! You know, other studies have also shown that women who make more money actually do just as much housework.

Rebecca
Yes.

Sheila
In fact, they do more, the more money they make. Because they have to compensate for taking away these guys’.

Rebecca
Yeah. Which is so silly. It's just so silly.

Sheila
Yeah, but, but you think about books like, like “Love and Respect”, Like “For Women Only,” like “His Needs, Her Needs”, which talk about how important it is for a man to feel like he's providing. And this is like this need that men have and “Love and Respect” even says like women even if you make more money, even if you go out and work, you're not doing it for the same reasons. And so you don't feel the same pressure and you don't understand what your husband feels. Right. And so you can never understand that. And so you need to, you need to help your husband feel like he's providing. Right, even if you’re the one bringing home. So you’re the one bringing home the money, most of the money. But you need to make your husband feel like he's the one that is providing for the family.

Rebecca
Exactly.

Sheila
And I mean, yeah, you know what? We should all make each other feel like I appreciate what you do for our family. Yeah, because everyone's work contributes to the family. Whether you are staying at home with the kids, whether you're working part time and doing a bigger share of the housework and mental load, whether you're working full time, whether you're both working full time. Like everybody is contributing to the family.

Rebecca
But it doesn't need to be gendered, like, you know, yeah, but it doesn't need to be gender.

Sheila
And it also doesn't need to only be about paid work. The person who's doing most of the childcare and housework, is also contributing to the family. Everybody is, right? Let's just, let's just acknowledge that we are all providing in whatever way, like. Yeah, because he's bringing home money, it doesn't mean she's not providing or just because she's bringing home money doesn't mean he's not providing because somebody's still gotta look after the kids and put dinner on the table.

Rebecca
Yep. Exactly.

Sheila
That’s still providing for the family.

Rebecca
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Rebecca
Like or like if she's bringing in $200,000 and he's bringing in $60,000, well, then they're bringing in $260,000. And then the same thing, if he's bringing $200,000 and she's bringing $60,000, they're bringing in $260,000. 

Sheila
That’s the way we've always thought about it in our family. 
Rebecca
Yeah, same with us.

Sheila
We just think about what's our family income, not who brings in what. We just, what’s the money that we have to work with. But, but when, when we keep teaching that men need to be the providers, then men feel like they have to be the providers. And then when they aren't, they feel like they're not a real man. And one of the things that I hear a lot from men right now is, you know, I want to believe that women are equal. I want to celebrate that. But then I don't know what it means to be a man anymore.

Rebecca
Yeah. And it's like, but dude. It never needed to be that you could only be a man if you were better than women. Like, I think that's what's so frustrating and sad when you hear the stuff where it's like, I mean, like, I know that's what you were socialized in, but like, listen to yourself a little bit, right? Like, figure out what masculinity means outside of just being seen as better.

Sheila
Yeah. And more important. Yeah, yeah. Just take initiative, be responsible. That's what we talk about in The Marriage You Want. Just read chapters five and six. That is what it means.
To be in it is just to show up and, and take initiative. So yeah. So so, so if women make more money, they're twice as likely  to fake orgasm. And then in the second study, it's a little bit, it's a little bit different. So the more. 

Rebecca
The more like she thinks that he feels precarious but his masculinity. So she experiences more anxiety. So she doesn't talk about sex. And so that leads to her not having many orgasms, leads to her not having as good of sex. So in essence, like she's saying, well, because I can't make him feel like he's not a good lover, therefore I'm going to make sure he's a bad lover, is, in essence, what ends up happening because these men can't like. Because she feels that if she were to say anything about it, he’d just totally lose it.

Sheila
Yeah. And I want to read.

Rebecca
Oh, dear. You pulled out “For Women Only”.

Sheila
I think I remember which page it was because we've quoted this so much. Okay. Is it 103 or 105? Yeah. Here we go. 103. Right. Okay. So what so what Shaunti, Shaunti Feldhahn in “For Women Only” is talking about sex here. All right. And she says, she's saying that if responding physically to your husband, so you know you can't get aroused.

Rebecca
But we don't know what responding physically means. We from context to me it sounds like, oh, if you're not able to orgasm while you're having sex, that's what I read.

Sheila
That’s what I think it sounds like too. Let your words be heart words, reassuring, affirming, adoring. Do everything in your power using words and actions your husband understands to keep those pangs of personal rejection from striking the man you love.

Rebecca
Yeah.

Sheila
If you're not able to respond physically, you still need to reassure him that he's hot, that you're attracted to him.

Rebecca
That you enjoy sex.

Sheila
So the main issue here is not let's figure out why you.

Rebecca
Aren't responding physically.

Sheila
And she even says later, if if, you know, if you can't respond physically, go see a therapist. Like she doesn't say, talk to your husband about it. She says, deal with the problem yourself. Right? 
Like, like she never says, just talk to your husband about what you want.

Rebecca
Yeah.

Sheila
Because, but what she does say is that husbands have such a terrible, terrible need to not feel inadequate.

Rebecca
Yes, you need to adore him.

Sheila
Yeah. And she has a whole section on how husbands just cannot feel inadequate. When they feel inadequate, they shut down. And so you can't let them feel inadequate. That's one of the big, big things is don't ever let them feel like they're not masculine or manly. And it's like when we have that message constantly, how are we ever supposed to speak up for ourselves in the bedroom?

Rebecca
Yeah, like no wonder they're having higher rates of faking orgasms, lower sexual satisfaction and lower orgasm rates. Like no wonder.

Sheila
All right. Want to turn to exhibit D now?

Rebecca
Sure, let’s see if we can find the thread again.

Sheila
Oh yeah. I didn't really connect that one.

Rebecca
Yes. So we can make it work.

Sheila
Here’s the connection. The connection is that you know once again we're seeing this inhibited drive from women.

Rebecca
Yeah.

Sheila
Because of all of this stuff that we've been taught in evangelicalism, you know, which is that you're you're not the sexual one. Your husband is. And it's your job to make him feel. Like our main role is not to care for ourselves and our experience and what the couplehood needs. Our main role is to make sure that your husband still feels like he's manly.

Rebecca
Yeah.

Sheila
And it's just, it's just really weird.

Rebecca
I also will say like I feel like most men would feel a lot more manly if their wives were just having a really good time in bed and all of this kind of hold back, like I'm like, not to be crass, but I'm just kind of like, I mean, like, wouldn't that make most men be like, yeah, I'm a dude. Like, I don't like. And meanwhile they're like, just making their women feel like they have to fake it because they can't. And it's just sad.

Sheila
It is. It is very sad. Okay. So this one came through. This is interesting because this is from a woman. Okay. And I’m gonna read the whole thing. She's criticizing me, okay? And this was an extended conversation in one of our in one of the, one of the threads on Facebook a while ago and she was actually having extended conversations with one of our patrons back and forth.

Rebecca
Yes.

Sheila
So thank you, Sarah, for this. And I won't read Sarah's comments, but yeah, I'll just read hers. Okay? And she says this: “I’d be careful with whatever comes out today from Bare Marriage. We listen to the podcast weekly for months, and they are taking and removing all power from the men and giving all power to the women around sex, desires for sex, and only when the women want it, never thinking of the man's needs as well. In a marriage, it should be a loving and kind and a serving culture, not one spouse wielding all the power more than the other in certain areas. I stopped listening to them. They need more grace, mercy, and balance to their approach.”

Rebecca
Ah, poor, poor girl.

Sheila
And this is this is this is, a criticism that we get a lot, which is we're told. Oh, so you're, you're letting the woman be the, be the main, the only one who has power in the relationship.

Rebecca
Which is so funny because what we're just saying is you should only be having sex when both of you want it. So it's like, so then the woman has all the power. No, you should be having sex and both of you want it. And if she doesn't want it, figure out why she doesn't want it.

Sheila
And we also repeatedly said, and like, I can't, I can't count how many times I've said this. That, the problem of low desire is not a problem of women not wanting sex enough. It is a problem that we have done sex wrong. And so I'll list them again. Five things: 1. When women frequently reach orgasm, 2. When there's high marital satisfaction, 3. When you feel emotionally close during sex, 4. When there's no porn in the marriage, and 5. When there's no sexual dysfunction.
Desire and frequency tend to take care of themselves. And so when we, when we look at the fact that a woman doesn't want sex and we say, well, then she just needs to have it more because she needs it. Yeah, we are actually making the problem worse.

Rebecca
Yeah.

Sheila
Because she's going to feel less and less emotionally connected during sex and eventually that marriage is likely to become sexless because the more women have sex that they don't want, the more they develop an aversion to sex, and the more likely it is that within 15 years that marriage is sexless.

Rebecca
Yes.

Sheila
So like, this is, this is not good advice to just tell women to keep having sex.

Rebecca
No, but this is very clearly someone who listened to our podcast for a long time, but just couldn't get over the fact that we kept on saying, actually, women should enjoy and desire sex and shouldn't be controlled because like, it's real, it's just sad and obviously like, so what I see is that hit too close to home. She cannot believe that there is a marriage where you only have sex whenever she wants it, and they have sex frequently. Yeah, like and that's sad because that's what she's saying, right? Comments like this, they tell on themselves a little bit where it's like, oh, but honey, like, yeah, it probably is really hard to keep hearing us going on and on about how sex should be good for both of you and shouldn't feel like a chore when you don't have sex that doesn't feel like a chore.  When you don't know what that says about your marriage then. If you're like, but if I only ever had sex when I wanted, I would never want to have sex with him. And that's a hard thing to grapple with. And it's easier to lash out at us like it is easier to lash out on strangers on the internet than it is to actually deal with the fact that this is putting a really uncomfortable mirror to your own marriage. And that just makes me sad too.

Sheila
You know, I saw a really interesting reel.

Rebecca
Again, poor girl.

Sheila
I saw a really interesting reel last night. I didn't save it, but I should have saved it. But the guy was saying, he was complaining it was similar, which is, I get all of these listeners telling me, why should women get to be the gatekeepers in the bedroom? Like, there's a really simple reason. It's women's bodies who are being entered. You know, and I just thought like, that's amazing that a secular, like, a secular guy will say that, and a Christian guy will say the opposite. We get so many pastors telling women.

Rebecca
It’s the husband’s penis who needs the sex.

Sheila
Yeah. That's like, this is the way that you sacrifice, you sacrifice your body, just as Christ sacrificed his body so that your husband can get the sex. And it's, it's just it's really backwards.

Rebecca
And it's not sexy.

Sheila
Yeah. And, and because, because men are, men are told they're supposed to love their wives as their own bodies. And so you should be caring for your wife's body. And the simple fact is that sex is physically vulnerable for women in a way that it isn’t for men.

Rebecca
Well and also we know statistically speaking men are not caring for women as they do care for somebody because 95 to or higher men are having an orgasm. And that is not the case for women. It's like if you if men were actually loving wives, loving their wives as they love their own bodies, when we’d be having just as many orgasms as men.

Sheila
Yes.

Rebecca
And they're not. And so therefore it's just not working. 

Sheila
Yeah. I also want to point out, like when I, when I say those five things, I am not saying that it is necessarily the husband’s fault.

Rebecca
No.

Sheila
Like that isn't, you know, because maybe the reason you don't feel emotionally close during sex is because she has trauma from prior sexual assault. Maybe it's because she grew up in the evangelical culture and so was sexualized when she was eight because of her belly. And so, you know, she just has this uninhibited passion that needs to be worked on and needs to be unpacked, but then unpack it with her. The best way to unpack it with her is to tell her that there isn't obligation. That is actually the key to unlocking women's libidos is telling them, hey, there is no more obligation. Okay, I just want to do things when you want to do that. And we talk about this a lot in “The Great Sex Rescue.”

Rebecca
And not in the sad puppy way. For the love of all that is holy, don't do the sad I guess like we should do whatever you want and like don't, don't make yourself like, I'm sorry. I'm getting angry because it's so frustrating because I see men shoot themselves in the foot and we get women messages like, my husband's trying, but he's just a sad little puppy dog. And I'm like, figure it out together. Be grown ups. Don't be passive aggressive. Don't be manipulative. But like, this is a thing that can be fixed, but it's not going to be fixed when you see the primary problem of frequency. This is, this is, sex is complicated. Sex is relational. And sex waxes and wanes throughout your marriage. And that's normal. You're going to have periods of your life where you're having less sex and periods where you're having a lot of sex, and that's normal. And so if you're focused so much on a tally mark beside your bed to make sure that the calendar's getting enough check marks, like you're probably shooting yourself in the foot and making a really weird atmosphere of pressure around sex in your marriage. Again, not against if you guys are like, now we schedule it because both of us have, like, raging ADHD and we'll forget like, that's fine. But like, you know what I mean? Like, I'm not saying that that scheduling is wrong, but this you but it doesn't. Have a good faith understanding of what I'm saying, right? Creating this weird pressure of like we’ll have sex, I of course, I really want sex all the time, but we’ll only have it when you want it. Do you want it yet? Just don't, don't. Okay.

Sheila
And I also want to say, if you're the woman who grew up with inhibited sexuality, with his need to control everything, and so sex isn't working and you don't feel any desire, please, please work on that. Like you, you deserve better than that.

Rebecca
You know what? How good orgasms are for you in terms of mental health, in terms of, like, just all sorts of things like, seeing orgasm as an act of self-care, might be beneficial for you. Like, if you're someone who really struggled to see sex as good, seeing it as a way to meet your biological and physiological needs in, in the same way that like a like rest and restoration can.
I don't know if that, that mindset might help shift things for you, seeing it not as something you're doing to perform, but as something that you're doing a self-care. And if you can figure out how an orgasm feels, then it will make sense.

Sheila
And we have an orgasm course that can help you with that. I'll put a link in the podcast notes for that too.

Rebecca
But I think that it's not often talked about in that perspective. But when you look at the benefits of frequent orgasm on just like mental state and stuff like that, like it is actually quite good for women as well. And yeah, anyway.

Sheila
Yeah. So like this isn't something that you want to miss out on. So, so yes, like men need to work on making sure that she does feel emotionally connected, making sure it's mental satisfaction, making sure she doesn't feel pressure. But if you're the one with a really low libido because of all of this crap you've been taught, first of all, that's not your fault. And second of all, a lot of people have found that reading “The Great Sex Rescue”, reading “She Deserves Better” has really helped them reclaim a lot of the sexuality because they’ve understood what was taken from them. And, and then you kinda get mad. And you're like, now you took something from me you didn't have the right to take from. Yeah. So I'm like, find that again.

Rebecca
And then you can have spite orgasms. And there's also work that's great. You can have those too. That's fine. You can just make a bingo card of all the different kinds of orgasms that you can just collect over the years, like, I don't care. Have fun! Just again, as I always say, just don't email me about it. Just don't send it to me in a DM. I love you all. You need to stop sending me details in DMs. I again, I'm thrilled for you. If you have sent me details, if you've sent me things like oh my gosh, we finally did it and my legs were here and I'm like, I am so happy for you. Please don't tell me, okay.

Sheila
I have to admit, I do like the emails where it's like I finally had my first orgasm after like 17 years,  like, yes.

Rebecca
General emails. Awesome. Send the general testimonials. I just don't need to know what position did it for you. I just, I just don't I'm not going to use it as a, as a testimonial, or as a data point because it's not a study. Anyway.

Sheila
Okay, so I want to read the next part of her email. Can I do that? Okay, so we read the first bit. This is the second bit. She’s replying. 

Rebecca
Is this the same commenter?

Sheila
It's the same. The same commenter. She’s replying to our patron. And she says, “Sarah, they have said many times that sex should only be when the woman is desiring it, and that the man should wait for the wife until then. Not sure if you've spoken with many women, but many women's desire tends to be lower compared to most men. Hence all the viral memes. But also balanced marriages have had counseling with this around marriage. As a loving wife and mom of four, if I only did things when I really felt like it, my children wouldn't have breakfast most days. They wouldn't receive a great homeschool education. The dishes would be piled up and laundry would be undone. But because I've experienced the loving transformation of Christ, undeserving love in my life, I serve those around me. I have an amazing spouse that is loving and takes care of me and our family’s needs, and points us to Christ. I think it would be very unloving to only be with him when my desires arose, telling him to eat his desires when I don't desire it. I will say she has helped those with spouses who have been abused around things in the bedroom, but she has most definitely thrown the baby out with the bathwater. I don’t suggest someone if a large portion of their ministry I can't stand behind.”

Rebecca
Yeah, and again, this is just to me, this doesn't make me angry or hurt or make me like worried for ourselves. This just makes me sad for her.

Sheila
Because what is she comparing sex to?

Rebecca
Like cooking for your kids and stuff like. 

Sheila 
Doing laundry. 

Rebecca
I also like I'm sorry, but like a woman saying like if I didn't do all this, everything would pile up. That doesn't sound like she has a lot of support from her spouse. Like so many women, especially homeschooling moms, carry so much mental load because what ends up happening and I am a homeschooling parent now. I'm a half time homeschooling parent because Connor actually does. I think right now he does the majority of the school with them. But like the amount if when I was doing it all on my own, you, you have all of that stuff and then you still have all the normal stay at home mom stuff on top of it. And what ends up happening when you're homeschooling is you feel like you have to do all of it during the day. But really, what should be happening is if your spouse is like coming home after work, that should be when you do a lot of the housework stuff too. Like it takes a lot to do this with four kids and she says all this stuff. Look at all the things she's saying. She's saying like, my kids wouldn't eat, they wouldn't get a homeschool education. The dishes would pile up, the laundry wouldn't get done. What, what help is she getting like? That's what I like. I don't talk like this. Yeah, like and that's that's an I know that I'm in a marriage where I can actually rely on my husband. And that does not mean that stuff doesn't pile up, right? During the two weeks when I was editing the “Love and Respect” thing like Connor did really great. But he was, he was he was carrying everything on his own and still trying to get grad school done. And so when I was done, I did the deep dishes clean, right? Where it's like all the the stuff from the coffee cups. And the stuff that didn't get cleaned for two days and everything. And the deep laundry clean, sure. But like the house was fine. Like it didn't pile up from normal stuff, like, and I'm in a marriage where I can say that and I would never write this. Like, I look at this and she's saying if I stop for even one second, my whole life collapses around me, and I'm going to be drowning, and it's going to be awful. And so I just have to keep doing it because Jesus died for me. And I'm like, honey, the fact that you're that overwhelmed probably explains a lot of why you don't want sex. Like I just don't. It's so sad because you see women like this and they give you their whole life in a comment, and they don't even realize that they're showing that they are, in fact, a statistic. Statistically speaking, women who don't orgasm the first time they have sex are much more likely to have lower orgasm rates, than when women who do orgasm the first time they have sex have the same rates of high libido as men do. So she's saying lots of women, don't want sex. Yeah, because as we found a small percentage, it's a very small percentage of women who are orgasming the first time they have sex. So like, okay, so statistic number one, we haven't had pleasurable sex from the get go. Okay. Statistic number two, women, we know from multiple studies, women who carry the mental load in their marriages tend to, internally, begin to resent their spouses or see them more as children and another dependant.

Sheila
There’s a great Australian study about that.

Rebecca
Yeah, they see them as a dependent rather than as a partner. And you know what? We are not sexually attracted to dependance. And so sex libido decreases even among women who still have solo desire. Right. Didactic desire decreases. Right. That's what they found.

Sheila
Yeah. So, so, yeah, I like just a sort of, it's an inherent desire for sex. Like you might dream about sex a lot.

Rebecca
Like you might still be aroused.

Sheila
Yeah, you're still getting aroused. But you don’t want sex with him.

Rebecca
Yeah. It's like. But you have a hard time motivating yourself. It's not even like, I don’t want to have sex with you. You just have a hard time. You don't feel the desire for sex with him, because why not? He's another thing on your to do list. And so once again statistic number two.

Sheila
And then just treating it like a to do list. Right? It with all the other awful chores that she has to do.

Rebecca
Yes. And then I'll just say and now you get into our statistics of obligation sex and saying that it's a woman's duty because men need sex more than women do. And again, lower libido rates, lower orgasm rates, lower sexual satisfaction just in general. And this woman is a walking statistic and she doesn't see it. And that's sad because it's like there are so many things that you could change. You could fix the mental load issues. You could.

Sheila
I can, I can I just come back to this homeschooling thing just for a second? Okay. So she, she says if she doesn't do the dishes they pile up, right? So presumably she'd do the dishes after breakfast and lunch. And she's trying to give four kids a great homeschool education at the same time. And getting all the stuff done during the day. And I just want to say, like, when I homeschooled, I didn't do that stuff during the day.

Rebecca
That's exactly what I was trying to say with the part of the yeah.

Sheila
But I want to, I want to stress it. Yeah, I know there's a lot of homeschooling parents who listen to us. Caring for a home and doing all of the housework is a really, really big job. And if you were trying to do that while you were also trying to homeschool different age groups, you’re not going to be giving your kids.

Rebecca
Like unless you have quadruplets, that's four different educations right there.

Sheila
Yeah, like, like something's going to be giving. And so, you know, we would always save the big cleans for Saturdays when we were home. Like we still did that.

Rebecca
You do one big load of dishes at the end of the day. And like yeah the dishes pile up throughout the day in the kitchen. Looks gross. Who cares? It's going to get cleaned at the end of the day.

Sheila
And then right before I'm making dinner, I clean everything up. That's just that's still what I do, actually. Everything's a mess all during the day, then right before dinner, I clean it all up. Because all during the day I’m working.

Rebecca
But something has to give. And what ends up giving is the woman's mental health, the woman's energy, her rest, her libido. Because that's not a priority. Because women aren't sexual. Right? As she's saying, women are sexual.

Sheila
I want to say too like, don't, don't like, like if you are going to homeschool, don't let your kids give.

Rebecca
Yes, don't let their education be the thing that gives. Yeah, yeah. But it sounds like for this woman, what's giving is her. Yeah, it sounds like from her account she's doing a great job. And I have no reason not to doubt her account. Right? But what we often see is that. Yeah, what's giving is the woman and her mental reserves and her energy and her sense of just vivacity for life. Look, she's talking about everything in her life being a chore that she's only doing because Christ died for her. Like you should not, that shouldn't be our outlook to parenting and our children and being a home educator and all these things, if you're going to do it like and and I don't say that to condemn, I say that in the oh poor sweetie kind of way. Like I, I'm sad this woman's not listening to us anymore, because I hope that maybe I'm worried that it's because she's put up a block in her mind and I'm worried that it's because she's not willing to accept the fact that she has been second tier and second fiddle in her own marriage. I am not saying that it was done on purpose. I'm not saying this is some chauvinistic pig headed dude, but this just happens because of the, the basics in our culture and the, the baselines that were raised with, like we were talking about the thread, the thread you were raised by a mother who did not have harmonious sexuality. Right? And so sex wasn't something that was seen as inherently feminine. It was seen as some that masculine men did to feminine women. Right? That, that's typically what the, the, the social scripts are.

Sheila
And that’s what she is. She’s got these four kids and she’s passing on the sexual messages. 

Rebecca
And then I’m talking about this poor woman. Like women like if we're like, if we're following the statistics that she's showing us in her comment. Right? And then you're raised to believe that women need to make sure that men get what they need, which is her entire focus here is that, well, men need sex. And like, well, why do men need sex? Like women also need sex. So why are we not feeling like we need sex? And then we didn't have necessarily the most positive experiences with sex because I'm sorry, but no one whose primary experience of sex is that it's orgasmic and really, really good for you is like, well, I have to make my kids oatmeal, so I guess I'll have sex. Like, that's just not the way that is talked about. A lot of people start out having great sex and like stuff happens and they're like, I don't know how to get back to that. I think that's the spark has disappeared. And so I just have to keep having it anyway, that's a different conversation than, well, I make oatmeal. Might as well make whoopie. Like that's, that's a different conversation. And so like when you look at this woman, like this is who we're talking about here and, and what are your kids going to learn? What's your daughter going to learn about what her role is in a marriage, about her body, about.

Sheila
This is just a really it's sad is that the whole point is because, you know, of Christ’s undeserving love in my life. So I didn't deserve Christ's love. And but I have it. And so now I'm going to serve my family. How about just Jesus came to earth to show us how to love and and to show us how to have life abundantly? And we get to enjoy things.

Rebecca
It's just I think there's totally a place for the whole, like, undeserved love of Christ. Absolutely. I just, it makes me sad when I see people talk about that in terms like caring for their children or like their marriage. And I'm like, but those are the refuges. Like, those are the good parts. Like, that's like, that's the part that's supposed to fill you back up. Right? Like, and if it's not, let's figure out why. Because you deserve to enjoy your kids. You deserve to enjoy your spouse. You deserve to enjoy your marriage. No one needs to enjoy dishes. Yeah, sure. Make the dishes the undeserved love of Christ. And no one needs to like folding laundry. But like your kids, your husband, your relationships. That should be the stuff that fills you back up. That shouldn't be the stuff that you're having to remind yourself, well, Jesus died on the cross for me, and so I'm going to die to myself here. Yeah, and that's just sad. And so I hope that she hate-listens to us. I hope that this woman continues to listen. I hope that she hasn't just shut off her heart. I hope that this isn't the situation of her just not being willing to, like, accept that what we are saying is true, and that that does actually mean she has to look at her marriage and look at the, the, the, the patterns that they're in and how they can get out of them. Because it sounds like this might also be a woman who, if they did get out of them, they could have so much more.

Sheila
That's just what we want is we just want people to have more.

Rebecca
Yes.

Sheila
Think about okay. Harmonious desire versus inhibited desire. Because I think that that's what we're talking about. More is inhibited desire here. Well you're just so overly regulated. You are so in control. You know you're not present in your body. You're not able to just go with the moment.

Rebecca
And I also want to say in control doesn't mean that you're doing things well. I think a lot of people think that in control, they think anal retentive, I mean, in control as in you feel like everything is out of control. So your desire is to be in control is to is to, to, to to make the chaos go down, to clear your brain, to have a second, like when you feel like everything's kind of slipping out and so you're trying to grab it, right? So we're not talking about people who, like, have everything all together. And we talk about being in control. We're talking about actually, ironically, the feeling that it's not under control.

Sheila
Yeah. And so your job all the time is to try to manage yourself so that you never like. So that's you are always able to keep everything together. And sexuality doesn't really flow well from that.

Rebecca
And and what if and the question I would ask people who are saying like yeah, but like I don't really know if that is true, but what if we're right? What if we're right? And there are tons and tons of marriages out there where it doesn't actually matter who has a higher libido because they both just want sex. And so she doesn't want sex one night. It's not a big deal. And if he doesn't want sex one night, it's not a big deal. Because yes, actually it does happen. Where sometimes she's like, ooh, let's go. And he's like, I'm just stressed from work. I would much rather not. I'm like, okay, like that actually happens in marriages too. What if we are telling the truth and that does happen? What if the studies are not lying and that this is not 80% of marriages? It's really not. What if there are marriages out there where, you know, sex is just not an area of contention because it's always been very mutual and it's always been pleasurable. And what if there are marriages out there where it wasn't and now it is, and that could be you. What if there are marriages where you don't always have to feel like if you stopped for one second, your whole life would fall apart? And what if you could be in a marriage where you didn't have to worry so much about what his needs were, because you were actually secure and safe enough to be like, well, what about my needs? And you, you can put your needs first and his needs first and not see them as in conflict. Like, what if that's all possible? Like, what if that actually is possible? And we're not lying and we're not just married to browbeaten husbands who are whipped and like, what if this actually is how a lot of people function and you can too?

Sheila
Amen! And that's what we want for you. So as we're wrapping up, you know what I want to do. And I've been trying, I've been wanting to do this for a long time, is like write kind of a flowchart of like, what do you need from us? Because we don't know what you need from us. Because we have so many resources. And so a lot of you were like, yeah, but but I want help, but I don't know where to go. Okay. So let's start with the beginning. If you have never experienced an orgasm, alright. If you don't know how sex works, get “The Good Girl’s Guide to Great Sex” and “The Good Guy’s Guide to Great Sex” and get the Orgasm Course. Okay, just check those things out. Those will teach you everything about what sex is supposed to be. Now, maybe part of the reason that you haven't experienced an orgasm is because the whole idea of sex kind of skeeves you out, and because it's always felt kind of skeevy to you. And that's when you really need to read “The Great Sex Rescue.” And maybe even “She Deserves Better.” Okay. So if you grew up as a teenager in purity culture, and you were made to feel like your body was a problem, and you believed all the obligation sex messages. Those books are really gonna help. Alright. Now what if you're just simply, you know, you have orgasms? Maybe sometimes. So, you know, it's possible.

Rebecca
Or like you used to, but it just doesn’t happen anymore.

Sheila
But you've also got, like, a bunch of kids, and you’re exhausted, and you're trying to get the dishes and the laundry under control. You probably need “The Marriage You Want.” What you might need is to figure out how we can do our marriage better so that I can enjoy it. So I can enjoy my kids and enjoy my husband and, and get this better. Okay? Or what if like, life is just okay, but you've just found that spark is gone and you can't figure out why and but orgasm, you can get there. Maybe not all the time, but like, it is possible, that’s when you need the Boost Your Libido Course. Alright, so we're going to put links to all of those things. I don't know where you're at, but I hope that covers everybody. And maybe we can just help you from a variety of perspectives. But I really want you to take what Rebecca said seriously. Okay? What if we're not lying? Like, what if this is actually possible? Where sex isn't a bone of contention in your marriage, where both of you, like, want it and enjoy it when it happens. But you're also not, if it doesn't happen, you're also not panicking.

Rebecca
Also, like just a thing that I think people don't realize too is what if you could get to a point where sex, yeah, you can communicate about sexuality, but sex isn't even really much of a discussion anywhere because it just naturally happens. Yeah, because that's what we've really looked at, for a lot of the people who say they have shared libidos is that like.

Sheila
Yeah, it's not like this is every 87 hours.

Rebecca
No. It's like it's just like doesn't register. It's not, it's not a point of contention. It's not really a big deal because it just happens.

Sheila
Yeah. Yeah yeah. You know and that's that. Wouldn't that be lovely? Yeah. If it doesn't happen because I know Christ died for me and so I need to.

Rebecca
Yeah. Poor girl. Poor sweetheart. Like genuinely poor sweetheart like I just. I don't mean in a patronizing way. I mean it in the Canadian way. Yeah, not in the southern way. So in Canada, a poor sweetheart is genuine.

Sheila
So there you go. So on that note, remember to check out our sponsor for this podcast. Thank you very much to the book “To Heal or Harm”. And let's just end spiritual abuse in the church. Let's just look, there is simply no room for it. There is no room for interpretations from the Bible to keep people in abusive situations. So check out that link is in the podcast notes. The link to our courses, and our books are in the podcast notes, the link to the studies that we mentioned are in the podcast notes.

Rebecca
When in doubt, go to the podcast notes.

Sheila
Go to the podcast notes. Thank you for joining us. Remember to subscribe, hit that like button and just feed the algorithm. Let others know about us.

Rebecca
Please. The algorithm is hungry.

Sheila
Yes, the algorithm is hungry.

Rebecca
Please feed it.

Sheila
Thanks very much. We’ll see you next week. 

Sheila & Rebecca
Goodbye!