Episode 326: The Problems with For Men Only by Jeff & Shaunti Feldhahn

In this episode, we dive into For Men Only, by Shaunti & Jeff Feldhahn, and let’s just say…we have many thoughts! We unpack some of its core claims about gender dynamics, communication, and emotional needs. Rebecca shares how this book impacted her first few months of marriage to Connor, and not in a good way!

We address major concerns with the book’s research methods, its reliance on broad gender stereotypes, and its tendency to frame women as overly emotional and men as disengaged. While it contains one of the best descriptors we’ve seen on mental load, the Feldhahns have yet to propose workable solutions that include mutual accountability and behavioral change. Sheila and Rebecca advocate for a more nuanced, evidence-informed understanding of relationships—one that prioritizes emotional maturity, shared responsibility, and meaningful communication over simplified gender narratives. This one is worth a listen and keep an eye out for Part 2 next week!

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• Join our Patreon for as little as $5 a month to support our work (and get access to the book club!)
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LINKS MENTIONED: 

• Our article demolishing Shaunti Feldhahn's "research" on love & respect
• One Sheet on For Women Only 
• Podcast on For Women Only 
• Podcast on mental load
• Our book The Marriage You Want

Transcript

Rebecca
Hello and welcome to the Bare Marriage Podcast. I'm your host, Rebecca Lindenbach, once again.
 
Sheila
She's so proud.
 
Rebecca
The first seat, never again to be relegated to second seat. I found my place while Sheila was gone. And I shall not give it up in vain. No. In all seriousness, we are in another season of busyness. As we are getting ready, we have personal stuff going on. Moving houses.
 
Sheila
Yes, yes.
 
Rebecca
She's moving houses. So I did a lot of background work for the podcast that's happening.
 
Sheila
I believe technically you did all the background work.
 
Rebecca
Yes, I did all of the background work.
 
Sheila
And so I don't even know really what we're going to talk about. So I'm going to be here just for you to bounce stuff off of it. I'm so excited.
 
Rebecca
Exactly.
 
Sheila
This is awesome.
 
Rebecca
But of course, here at Bare marriage is where you come for evidence based, healthy biblical advice for marriage and sex.
 
Sheila
Yes.
 
Rebecca
And first of all, before we get into this, we always want to thank everyone who makes this podcast possible. Our patreons for sure, who support us every month for as little as $5 a month. Getting access to our exclusive Facebook group where you also get to every now and then. Hear me go on unhinged rants.
 
Sheila
And you get access to Joanna’s book club. I think $8 a month.
 
Rebecca
Yeah, yeah, we have Joanna's book club. They're going through Pride and Prejudice currently, and those are Joanna's unhinged rants.
 
Sheila
Yes.
 
Rebecca
So it's just great. And also, of course, everyone who donates the Good Fruit Faith Foundation, which is an initiative by the Bosko Foundation that supports the work that we do to get this message out to as many people as possible.
 
Sheila
Yeah, our translation work, our work and academic papers, all of our docu series that we do, etc., etc.
 
Rebecca
Exactly. So thank you so much to everyone who makes us possible. And if you are looking to support us, you can find the links to our Patreon and to Bosko in the description.
 
Sheila
But one thing you can do right now is that, I got a comment on Facebook today. Who where someone said I am just liking commenting to help the algorithm. And yeah, we love people who do that. Yeah, so. So if you are watching it on YouTube, hit subscribe, hit like it helps other people see it. And wherever you listen to us or follow us on social media, remember to leave a comment and like and then other people will see this in their feed.
 
Okay. What are we talking about today, Rebecca?
 
Rebecca
So we're about to delve into the book for For Men Only.
 
Sheila
Okay.
 
Rebecca
And a fun fact you all should know is that this copy of For Men Only came from my bookshelf.
 
Sheila
Yes, yes.
 
Rebecca
Because when Connor and I were getting married, someone gave him For Men Only because he was a relatively new Christian and he was getting married. And so Connor, not wanting to be prideful, he read this book and he really took it to heart. And he, for the first couple months of our marriage, really, really tried to implement a lot of the teachings in this book and how he talked to me, how he handled conflict with me and we will get into some stories of how that affected us.
 
Sheila
But I have been hearing this story since even before we started on Great Sex Rescue. Yeah, this was like one day you came to him and said, what are you doing?
 
Rebecca
What the heck happened? Like, are you just? And if we are going to get into it. I have some very specific examples.
 
Sheila
Yeah.
 
Rebecca
Which is pretty funny, but yes, Connor, actually read this book cover to cover, really took it to heart. Worked through it, and worked his darndest to apply the wisdom of Jeff and Shaunti Feldhahn in our marriage
 
Sheila
Yes, and it was one of the, it was actually interesting. It was one of the first times that we, that you guys, you guys read a Christian marriage book, before I did it. And didn't work, it didn't work.
 
Rebecca
And this is literally like the first four months of our marriage. So this is back in 2015.
 
Sheila
Yeah. And it made things worse.
 
Rebecca
So it made things worse. It really did.
 
Sheila
Yeah. So we're going to figure out why.
 
Rebecca
And I want to. And here's where I'm going to give a map. I don't care if it's a spoiler. It's not a spoiler. You've been around here for a while. Yeah, I want you as we're looking through this, the big theme that I want us to talk about with this is emotional health and emotional maturity. And what it doesn't say about what they are assuming about men. Okay.
 
And before we even get into the book, I actually want to read what Shaunti writes to the wives at the beginning of this book.
 
Sheila
Okay,
 
Rebecca
There was nothing to husbands at the beginning of For Women Only. But there is this to wives. I'm going to read a bit of it.
 
A note from Shaunti to women readers.
I want to give a warm greeting and an important caution to any curious fellow females peeking in at what we're telling guys about how we are wired. Women tend to process things by talking them through. So when women read or listen to the findings, in For Women Only, they often turn to their husbands or boyfriend and say, usually in astonishment. Is this true? Which leads to a lively conversation and a feeling of closeness with their man.
 
Men, however, tend to process things by thinking them through and not saying anything until they fully understand what they are thinking. So when men read or listen to the findings, in For Men Only, they usually get real quiet. They are processing internally and simply are not capable of talking about it for some time, or maybe much at all. Which, well, doesn't lead to lively conversation.
 
Sheila
Can I just say one thing?
 
Rebecca
Yeah.
 
Sheila
Citation, please.
 
Rebecca
Citation, please. Citation, please
 
The key difference could lead to disappointment. If women didn't know to expect it, we could easily think, well, he didn't learn anything about me. Or even he must not care about me, in our experience, neither is true.
 
This is for a book that hasn't been published yet. Just saying.
 
Sheila
Yes. Anyway, in our experience. Okay
 
Rebecca
It is so hard to do, but if we women will let men have time to process, we found that while men may or may not talk about what they've learned, they usually start doing it. So in the days and weeks after your loved one reads any part of this book, keep your eyes open to recognize and affirm when that happens.
 
So this is a book about feeling closer.
 
Sheila
Yeah,
 
Rebecca
being a better husband.
 
Sheila
Yep.
 
Rebecca
And you're not supposed to be able to talk about it or feel close. You because she even says like, women and husbands feel so much closer. Both of them feel closer after they read another book and they talk about it. But you can't expect men to do that. Right? So which one is it? Do you write about how it feels good or do they not?
 
Sheila
Okay. While you're reading that I was I could see the back cover and I just want to show for YouTube the part in green.
 
Rebecca
Yeah.
 
Sheila
That's really highlighted. “Finally you can understand.”
 
It's like what you said it is. And the assumption is you can't understand your spouse.
 
Rebecca
It's wild. This kind of idea is like, men don't talk. Men don't talk like, well, why don't men talk? Yeah. Because also all men are not introverts and all women are not the opposite.
 
Sheila
And can I, can I do the numbers on this? Yes. Because this is, this is one of the big points we made in chapter one of The Marriage You Want about gender essentialism. Is that what we're constantly hearing, especially in church circles, is, yeah, men are logical, women are emotional men. Men don't want to talk and women do. Men just want to hear the facts. Women need to hear the emotions behind it. And so we actually looked at the numbers on this because of the Myers-Briggs Type Inventory personality test, one of the measures is whether you are a thinker versus a feeler. Yeah. And I think it's about 53% of men are thinkers. So it does go with the stereotype, but barely. And 73% of women are feelers. I might be off by a couple percentage points. Of people, but it's not. It's like
 
Rebecca
It’s about even for men and women tend to be more feeling. Yeah.
 
Sheila
How do you know if a thinker man is going to marry a feeler woman going back to, to middle school math, you multiply the chance of each happening together. And when you do that, I believe you get like 41%, something like that. So the idea that a man cares about feelings and a woman cares about emotions is only true in 41%.
 
Rebecca
No Men don't care about feelings. Okay?
 
Sheila
About love. Okay. Right? Right, right. So whatever. But that idea that she is espousing is only true in like 41%.
 
Rebecca
And it also assumes that people who are feelers do not also care about logic. And that is. Yeah, yeah. Someone who is emotions focused does not mean that you are also not analytical and logical. It simply means how do you tend to approach problems first?
 
Sheila
Yeah, like my husband, as anyone who's watched the podcast, my husband is a feeler. He's actually a very strong feeler. You probably may not get that impression from how angry he gets about stuff, but like he is very, very logical. Like he's the one who talks about logical fallacies all the time. He loves like he understands logical fallacies way better than I do.
 
Yeah, but I'm the thinker and he's the feeler. Yeah.
 
Rebecca
Yeah, exactly. And this is what's so frustrating is this idea that all men will not want to talk about this and like, or maybe, we challenge the men to talk about it. Maybe we don't. Right? This weird patronizing thing to wives where it's like, you're going to be disappointed if you expect your man to be a woman is like, is this expecting to be a woman or is expecting it to be an emotionally mature partner?
 
Sheila
Yes, yes. Right. Fully engaged partner okay. Talking about oh, I think we should say we can. Sorry. I know this will do you and I'm not happy. Let's just for those of you who don't know, For Women Only and For Men Only are both based on surveys that Shaunti did, and she did them like of a thousand people, they were representative of the population of America,
 
Rebecca
of America.
 
Sheila
So they weren't done of Christians and the population of interest matters. If you're going to write a Christian book, you need to take the survey of Christians. She did not do that.
 
Rebecca
Then the survey, they say it was a survey of 1000, but they actually only have 400 respondents because they could only include people who were married or in a long-term committed relationship.
 
Sheila
Right And so. yeah
 
Rebecca
So yeah, a lot of people weren't and then they had a lot of other exclusion criteria. And so like they actually had a survey of 400 people, and they weren't even of Christians necessarily. They would have been Christians in the sample because it was a populationly representative survey.
 
Sheila
But not yeah.
 
Rebecca
But it wasn't like of Christian.
 
Sheila
Couples. Yeah. And we had 20,000 predominantly evangelical women for The Great Sex Rescue. We had 7000 predominately evangelical people for The Marriage You Want both men and women like. Yep.
 
Rebecca
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So the first chapter is titled Rethinking Random: Why You Need a New Map of the Female Universe.  Because women are random.
 
Sheila
Oh my gosh,
 
Rebecca
Women are random. They do things and it does not make sense. Right? Because you can say one thing on Tuesday and then the exact same thing on Thursday. And they react differently either way. And so they are random right?
 
Don't you understand. Right. And this is the assumption that chapter has going forward.
 
So now he says women are not actually random. You simply need to learn about what you're doing that is triggering this difference like for example, on Tuesday, was she in a good mood? And on Thursday she's like running ragged with the kids. And that's why she's now snapping at you instead of being cute with your flirting.
 
It's just right. But the thing is, the assumption is that men see women as silly, flighty, random petulant creatures.
 
Sheila
Okay?
 
Rebecca
And I read that and I'm like, well. And then they have this example that they had from Jeff talking to women in focus groups and with Shaunti, and just the language that was used is so patronizing. And I just want to read it.
 
Sheila
Okay, okay.
 
Rebecca
Jeff says these guys tend to think that women are random. We think.
 
Well, I pulled this lever last week and got a certain reaction. When I pulled the same lever this week, I got a totally different reaction. That is random. And then the women in the group said, but we aren't random. If you pull the lever and get a different reaction, either you're pulling a different level or you're pulling in a different way.
 
And then Shaunti says this, what men need is some sort of map to their wives, because we can be mapped, we can know and understand the terrain. Then Jeff says this. Well see, guys think of women as a swamp. You can't see where you're stepping, and sooner or later you just know you're gonna get stuck in quicksand. And the more you struggle to get free, the deeper you get stuck in.
 
So every guy on the planet knows the best thing to do is just shut down and hope somebody comes along to rescue you.
 
Sheila
Every guy on the planet. Citation, please. Oh my goodness
 
Rebecca
And so then they talk about a straightforward guide to the inner lives of women being the subtitle. And then the next section is the most important key to deswamping the woman in your life is to realize some of your basic assumptions about her may either be too simplistic or flat wrong.
 
And I'm like, it's good we're addressing that the assumptions might be too simplistic, but first of all, can we not say these, deswamping your women like this is the grossest terminology ever for one. But also like that is my issue, why did we allow someone whose assumption about women shows so little awareness of just how people work?
 
Yeah, and relationships work. To become a voice here?
 
Sheila
Yeah. And again, Jeff is a lawyer. Yep. He is not a psychologist. Shaunti is not a psychologist, not a sociologist. She's not trained in anything in any relevant field. She did economics and business. So. And we allowed them to become voices of marriage. Yup. In evangelicalism.
 
Rebecca
Okay. 100%.
 
And that's just a big thing that you'll see going forward. I just read that and I was shocked and I was like, does he not know how bad that makes him look? Yeah. It's like that guy who wrote the musical where he wrote a song from his ex-wife's perspective, trying to make her look like an absolute problem. And everyone's like, a man wrote this song. Anyway, it's the one where it's like, you know,
 
Can't you just come see my show on my freaking birthday?  Do you need to go play with your little girlfriend again? And it's like. The guy wrote this, not the ex-wife. Yeah. And everyone's like, how little self-image understanding can you possibly have? And I feel like I have the same experience reading what Jeff is writing here. Yeah, I was like, women are like a giant swamp.
 
Sheila
And I'm like, so I'm okay. I'm picturing a little Conner because he was little when you got married.
 
Rebecca
Yeah.
 
Sheila
Reading this. And he probably felt like he could understand you.
 
Rebecca
Yeah.
 
Sheila
And now he's reading this, thinking about how every man knows that they can't understand women. And he's like, oh, wow. I guess Rebecca must be complicated in a way that I don't get.
 
Rebecca
And then we get into chapter two, okay? Chapter two is the deal is never closed. Why she I do will always mean, do you and what to do about it.
 
Sheila
Okay.
 
Rebecca
This is the chapter that Connor was like, this changes everything for me. Okay? This is the chapter that he remembers. And he's like, I never thought of it that way. I never would have guessed that.
 
So we talked through this chapter about how well you feel like you did it. You're done as a man. You said, I do. You are married. You're fine now. It's not just done for her. She wants to actually keep doing this really frustrating thing, which is working on the relationship. Okay. And so and I'm. There being a bit glib, but that is.
 
Actually what we're talking about. Yeah. And then what ends up happening is he has the three surprises that he has figured out. Three surprises, what never a done deal, feels like to her okay. So first of all, he's surprised by how frequent these feelings are. And so here's what he says. Whereas most guys coast along rarely thinking about the health of their relationship to most women that is unthinkable now.
 
Like, first of all, citation needed, citation needed.
 
Sheila
Most men, most men. I'm pretty sure that your father thinks of what the health of our relationship is. Not in a bad way. Like, oh my gosh, are we okay? But I just want to make sure that my wife feels heard.
 
Rebecca
Yeah, exactly. Let's make sure. Question they get into the question about women. Okay. Next woman this.
 
Under what circumstances do you think about your relationship, whether it's going well or how your husband or significant other feels about you? Choose one answer. 19% of the women said it's something I'm conscious of. Most of the time. 50% said it's often or occasionally in the back of my mind, 20% of them only think about the health of a relationship when we are really in a difficult season of our relationship. And 12% said never.
 
Sheila
Okay, can I? Can I be super picky here for a second? That's dumb written question.
 
Rebecca
It's a really dumb question.
 
Sheila
Because okay, that isn't about circumstances. That should just be how often do you think about your relationship? Not under what circumstances.
 
Rebecca
Yeah, exactly.
 
Sheila
But anyway, whatever.
 
Rebecca
That's all. If we were to nitpick every single question.
 
Sheila
Yeah, you're right, I yeah.
 
Rebecca
I know they're all bad.
 
Sheila
I need to stop. Yeah, I can.
 
Rebecca
I could do a podcast on each question. Okay. Yes. But then he says this. I'm guessing that for most guys, occasional thoughts about the closeness of our relationship might boil down to birthdays, anniversaries, and when something goes drastically, obviously haywire.
 
Notice the word guessing.
 
Sheila
Guessing.
 
Rebecca
Because here's the thing. This is what Shaunti does. She asks questions to one gender and then she extrapolates based on stereotypes and personal bias about the other.
 
So Jeff is someone who is oblivious to emotional maturity and health. It's flat out. I just don't know a nicer way to say it. He himself says he thinks women are swamps.
 
Yeah, and that he doesn't really understand how often women think about their relationship
 
Sheila
and that he never knew.
 
Rebecca
If you remember that all men don't know. Can you imagine thinking about your relationship? That is what this chapter is. And so he's now guessing that all men occasionally think of their relationship, like for birthdays or anniversary. Sure. And I'm like.
 
Sheila
But you didn't ask. But they're treating it like this is true.
 
Rebecca
Exactly.
 
Sheila
And I want to just. Okay, there's nothing wrong with writing books like writing a book for women and writing a book for men. Okay, no, we did that with the book Girls Guide Great Sex and the Good Guys Guide to Great Sex. The difference was that we asked basically identical surveys of each.
 
Like we gave, we gave both men and women virtually identical surveys. The women we asked more about sexual pain. The men we asked more but lust because those were particular research interests. But like in terms of, you know, how often you have sex, what's your libido? How often do you orgasm?
 
Rebecca
But more important than that you're even allowed to ask them different questions? You just can't say, well, because the women said that 10% of them experience sexual pain and therefore men must not experience like.
 
Sheila
Yeah, yeah, you don't, you don't. You don't assume that the other spouse is the opposite.
 
Rebecca
Exactly. Yeah. That's why we found that men experience lust in this way that we don't make extrapolations for the other.
 
Sheila
And remember this is what they did with Love and Respect, right? Yes. They figured out that men prefer respect, which was a really bad question. That's not what they learned. And we did a whole survey on this, but because they figured that men wanted respect, they just assumed that women wanted love without ever asking women. And that became the basis of the book Love and Respect. I'll put a link to the podcast notes on that.
 
Rebecca
Yeah. So his first, his first surprise was how frequently women think about their relationship. Okay. Which is a red flag.
 
Sheila
Yeah.
 
Rebecca
The second surprise was how intensely painful these feelings are. And he just didn't realize that women were feeling insecure when they felt unloved in their relationship. And how, okay, that must have been, okay. As several women put it, he says, when we are at odds, nothing is right with the world until it is resolved. In the survey, three of the four women agreed, saying that this. Does he really love me? Concerned. Let them feel preoccupied, emotionally withdrawn, depressed or affected in other visible ways.
 
And this is surprising to him, that women, when they feel. like their husbands don't love them, are emotionally distressed.
 
Sheila
Okay.
 
Rebecca
And I just, I just can't handle this. But then we have this paragraph that goes into section three okay. You and I, meaning men, have every right to think the woman we love shouldn't feel insecure.
 
We're faithful. We go to work; we do love her. And we're still here. But just because.
we think our wife should feel secure doesn't mean she always does. Which leads to my third realization. My third surprise. How resistant to logic, i.e. my logic, her feelings remain.
 
Sheila
Oh, he sounds like a gem. And this and this is the chapter that Connor read because he was.
 
Rebecca
I was just so surprised. Anyway I'm going to get into the Connor story in a minute, okay. Very funny. Okay. And this is this. As Shaunti points out, it's irrelevant whether she should know logically. She's loved. If she doesn't feel loved, it's the same for her as if she isn't loved.
 
And then he says this he goes into actually I think quite a good example of how for men who might struggle with this, we're talking very emotionally immature men who struggle with understanding that women might care about their relationship.
 
He gives an example of how you can have imposter syndrome at work even though you're doing a good job. It's like emotional imposter syndrome, in essence, relational imposter syndrome. Like, I know you love me, but I don't feel like you love me for something. I know that I'm good at my job, but I don't feel secure in my job. Like, okay, I actually don't hate that analogy. I hate that it's necessary, but I don't hate the analogy.
 
Okay. Another thing that set off to make her feel unloved, even though it's not logical to feel her unloved because he does love her. But the things that are listed make her, unlogically like, illogically feel unloved. Even if she is loved, conflict withdrawal. Silence, depleting her emotional bank account, being absent and unresolved relationship issues?
 
Sheila
And he’s surprised.
 
Rebecca
I don't like it. Does he love her? Yeah, like I'm sorry. Having frequent conflict, emotionally withdrawing from her. Giving her the silent treatment. Like draining her emotional bank accounts like he says, perhaps she's exhausted or her work or the children have been particularly taxing. This may even have nothing to do with you, but she could be more easily triggered if her emotional bank account had nothing left in it.
 
And I'm like, yeah, so she's sitting there and you're not doing anything to help her. Do you love her then? Yeah. Do you love her? You're absent a lot. Unresolved relationship issues.
 
Once we recognize these triggers and see the red warning light for what it is, a signal for you that she needs to be reassured of our love, we can take some incredible, simple steps toward being part of the answer for her. Rather than part of the problem.
 
Sheila
And I don't think she needs to be reassured. I think.
 
Rebecca
Oh, we're getting into that. Okay. Oh, we're getting into that. Okay. There are five answers okay, that men are given. This is how men are supposed to help their wives who don't feel like they are loved, even though they logically should.
 
Sheila
Okay.
 
Rebecca
Part one regular reassurance. One, during conflict, reassure her of your love, okay? And I'm not going to read a whole bunch of these, so they really just say the same thing over and over again. You need to say that you love them. You need to reassure them of your love.
 
Sheila
Okay.
 
Rebecca
Two when you need space, reassure her that it's not about her. Okay So like communicating that if you need space, it's not about her. It's that you just need to get it.
 
Sheila
Okay. So I just need to go for a drink go drink with my buddies
 
Sheila
No. If you say, you know, I'm. Going to give this guy all the benefit of the doubt, okay? He actually gives a very good example. I think he says state your need in the context of hers. Honey, right now I just need some time alone. I'm just out of sorts. It has nothing to do with how I feel about you. I'm like, if you're someone who needs time alone, I actually don't think that's a bad script.
 
Sheila
Yeah, that's not bad.
 
Rebecca
That's not a bad script.
 
Sheila
Yeah.
 
Rebecca
This will make it much easier for her to let you have space without misinterpreting your needs. Like I actually don't hate that advice.
 
Sheila
No, that's fine. Yeah.
 
Rebecca
And then number three is this. If she's upset, realize she doesn't need space, she needs a hug.
 
Sheila
Right, okay. It depends on what she's upset about.
 
Rebecca
And then four is if she needs to talk about the relationship, do your best to listen without becoming defensive which I'm like, okay that's all okay. And then five if she is being difficult don't stop. Keep reassuring her of your love. Finally let's address a dynamic that confuses and even aggravates us. The importance of reassuring and showing love to our wife even when she's difficult, resisting or pushing us away.
 
As you can probably guess by now, that is usually just one more sign of do you really love me questions?
 
So do you notice what's not present?
 
Sheila
Changing your behavior.
 
Rebecca
Anything about changing literally anything about. Changing your behavior. Yeah.
 
Sheila
You're just simply supposed to keep telling her that you love her.
 
Rebecca
And so that's that. Just keep on reassuring. You love her. And I'm listening. And yes, I love you and thank you for sharing and I love you. And just, you know you're so important to me.
 
Yeah. And then the second thing that they're supposed to do is persistently pursue their wife.
 
Sheila
Okay.
 
Rebecca
So just actually filling up that emotional bank account, making sure that you're actually, like, sending flowers, doing little things to let her know that you love them and all these things I'm like, and there's not objectively wrong to do. That's fine.
 
Sheila
Okay.
 
Rebecca
But we're talking about a woman who doesn't feel loved by her husband. If it's because he's just not mentally tuned in to, oh, maybe I should do nice things for my wife, then that could probably help. But what if it's because there's like actual relationship problems.
 
Sheila
Yeah
Rebecca
Yeah. And they have some really good advice. Here I think like they see. Ask yourself what I did when I was dating that made me so irresistible to her? Right. Like what were the things that made us feel close back then. What made her feel like I wanted to marry him and do those things again? Don't stop talking to your wife because you're married. Like this is all fine. That's just so fine, right? But here's the thing.
 
Literally nowhere in that chapter does it tell men, if your wife doesn't feel loved, you may have actually done something to make her feel unloved. Yeah, it's all about how she misinterprets you. And it's not logical, but it's still important. And it's all this type of stuff.
 
Sheila
And so it's basically just condescending to your wife. It's like. It's like patting her on the head. There, there dear.
 
Rebecca
Yeah. And he does say a lot of things about how her emotions are valid and like your logic isn't the only logic. And sure, but. He still does frame it as logical versus not right. Right. And the thing is.
 
What ends up happening for us? And this is where it gets quite funny with me and Connor. Okay, are we getting married and of course you're married. You're moving in together for the first time. You're learning there's so much conflict because it's about who takes out the trash, who does this, who does that. And I'm sitting there and I wanted to work things out, and I'm. We're talking about stuff, and I'm frustrated and I'm stressed, and he just keeps on saying, I just want you to know I love you so much. I just want you to know, like, you are so wonderful and you're so beautiful and I love you so much. I'm so glad I married you. And I'm like. I don't care. I just want you to do the dishes. Like I could not care less. What the heck are you going on about? And I didn't feel insecure in our relationship at all. I know you love me. I want you to start being like that. I want you to be the husband that I want you to be. I don't want you to tell me how much you love me. I know that you have stopped groveling.
 
Like I felt like it was really weird and off putting. So I was like, why is this man who I respect who I find quite strong and manly, acting like some kicked puppy? Yeah. Constantly telling me how much he loves me and making me feel like I have to reassure him when all I want him to do is brainstorm with me how we're going to figure this out.
 
Sheila
Right?
 
Rebecca
And so when Connor stopped telling me how much he loves me when we were in conflict, things got so much better because I was like, I'm very secure here. But literally he's like, well, I just read this book that said that, like. And I said, we actually, I think I was like month four or something into our marriage.
 
He brought up the book and so like, yeah, I just had a conflict like that, women often feel very insecure and they need to be reassured. And I was like; it makes you seem really weak.
 
Like, I'm sorry. Like it's just it's like there's nothing wrong with being assured by you. And he does assure me in many ways that are not weak, but just like it just it's like this seems so insecure.
 
Sheila
It's also kind of like I can see it being really passive aggressive. So she's saying, Hun, I am overwhelmed with the kids and the housework and I, I really need to step up. But I love you. I just really love you. And then yeah, it changes the whole image because now she has to reassure him.
 
Rebecca
So much like him hugging me and being like, I understand that sounds really awful and I'm like if it does, do you want to fix it. Like if you're able to listen so well, maybe we turn them off their ears and start turning on their feet and hands like they really start doing stuff.
 
Yeah.  meanwhile he's like, I'm doing everything that I can and it's just getting worse. And I'm like he's doing nothing except for weirdly groveling here. I know it was so funny.
And I'm like, listen, if there is a level here where it's like, there are men who need to be told, you need to be emotionally available to your wife. But again, what is the assumption about the emotional maturity level of the man reading this book?
 
Sheila
Right.
 
Rebecca
What is the assumption of what they know and what they don't know of the skills they have versus what they don't have. And I'm not talking taking a minute in relationship conflicts to make sure you're like hey we're on the same team. We're in this together. That's not what I'm clocking. We were already doing that. Yeah. Yeah, we were doing the healthy version of this already. But then he stopped thinking that what I was bringing up were real problems and he started seeing them as insecurity.
 
Sheila
Right?
 
Rebecca
It wasn't insecurity. It was a real problem. Yeah. Because of this book? Yes. And then when he was like, I just don't think that they're correct. Everything got better in like ten days. Like we went, we fought for quite a few months in the beginning of our relationship. He stopped following this book and it was like, we're better now.
 
Sheila
And I actually remember that.
 
Rebecca
And I remember it was really awkward, since back when you and Shaunti were still like, kind of friends.
 
Sheila
Like, yeah, we were and yeah
 
Rebecca
And it was like, I don't know how to tell you this, but her book kind of screwed up our marriage. Yeah. And you were like,
 
Sheila
Oh that’s weird, and then I said, you know, I've never actually read it. Yeah, yeah.
 
Rebecca
It was just so interesting.
 
So then we get into the next chapter okay. Which is called.
 
Windows Open: What you should know about the Fabulous Female Brain, a guide for lower life forms. Right. So we're back into the glib like men are cavemen. They don't understand women. Women. And it's the, it's the benevolent them.
 
Sheila
So I would, that was what I was about to say
 
Rebecca
Say that these women as the whole beautiful creatures that should be worshiped but not really taken seriously, it's on full display here. But here's the thing. He opens the chapter with a story of him talking to his friend Alec. Okay, he says this.
 
One day. Early on in our research, my kids and I dropped by the home of some close friends, Alec and. Susie. Well, our children, when I tried to play.
 
Alec asked me what I'd been learning about the mysterious other gender. I tried to describe a growing realization that the female brain is not a normal instrument. What's normal, Alec and I agreed, would mean male. Instead, I described what many women had told me that their thought lives were almost like busy computers with multiple windows open, all running.
 
All at once, unwanted. Popups intrude all the time, and little ability to close out or ignore any of that mental or emotional activity until a more convenient time. My friend shook his head in amazement. Strange, we both agreed. Very strange.
 
Sheila
Yeah. Mental load on to give one of the most accurate.
 
Rebecca
On to give one of the most accurate depictions of mental load that I've ever read in a book. And completely does nothing with it. It is. I have never seen a man so aware of the problem, and so unaware of the solution, as when I read this, I was laughing. I'm like, oh, oh. My friend, you are. That was when I, all I could picture was when my little Yorkie. I love him. When he was just about to die and he was fully blind, we would put a treat on the floor, and it would take him seven minutes snuffling around, hitting the treat with his nose to find the treats. And I'm like, that's the mental image I have of Jeff.
 
And the point? Yeah, it's just it's like, you are so close, my friend. It's so bad. So here's the thing. I have an example here. They're just absolutely bonkers. Okay, are you ready? I'm going to read to you. And you are not going to believe this.
 
Sheila
Okay. I'm ready. I just don't know if I'm ready.
 
Sheila
But like, genuinely, he gets really good examples of how.
 
Rebecca
Distressing this is. Like they juggle multiple thoughts like you, you have intrusive thoughts of fear and anxiety of things that might happen because everything feels like it's on your shoulders. It's so stressful. And then it gives this example of how it can go wrong.
 
Okay, real life example I think we men need to have our eyes opened to the real-life examples that are all around us, so we can see how this actually works and what to do about it. So I'm like, oh, we're going to get into practical stuff.
 
Sheila
Oh, awesome. Okay,
 
Rebecca
so let me pick an example, that just happened last night. Shaunti was out of town with the kids, and a colleague invited me over for dinner with his wife, Donna, and two small children. When I arrived,
 
Bob was working in another room with one of those fire-starting devices that you click to get a flame. The following conversation occurred as the adults sat down for dinner a few minutes later.
Donna: Honey, what did you do with that fire starter?
Bob oh, I left it in the other room,
Donna but the kids are in there.
Bob. Oh, it's okay. It is impossible for them to figure out how to get a flame. It's pretty difficult to use.
Donna. But what if?
Bob. Really, hon, there's no way they'd be strong enough to put that flame on.
Donna. Okay, that's true.
 
Now, personally, this is Jeff’s voice again. I wouldn't have thought a thing about this conversation, but now, as I watched Donna across the table, I could tell with my newly acquired Supersensitive male radar that a window had popped open. It was not going to close until something set her mind at ease. So what do you think? That, she's going to tell someone to do.
 
Sheila
Go get the friggin fire starter?
 
Rebecca
Who do you think he's going to tell to do it? Who should he tell?
 
Sheila
Do it. The dude I forced named Bob.
 
Rebecca
Yeah, yeah. Okay, so here's what he says. So I mentioned to Bob and Donna what I've been learning about how women couldn't usually just decide to close a window and not think about something that was bothering them.
 
Donna sat bolt upright. That's it, she said. That's exactly what I'm feeling. So she pushed away from the table. Moved the fire starter out of the kid's reach and came back. Now, she said, I can enjoy my dinner. Bob and I both realized that if she hadn't been encouraged to take that ten second action, she would have been distracted and unable to truly relax and enjoy the next hour of dinner.
 
Even though she acknowledged that Bob was almost certainly correct that the kids couldn't engage, the fire starter. The window would have been open and bugging her. Isn't it so nice of Jeff to tell her it was just 10s? She?
 
Sheila
Make it stop, make it stop! Oh my gosh
 
Rebecca
But see, it was just 10s. It took such a short amount of time, and it made everyone so happy. We'll see what I mean. Where this is the most bizarre, where like, he understands, he sees the mental, oh, the emotional labor. He clocks it for what he is. He's like and then the silly little woman just took care of it. Like, that's not so silly to make such a big deal. It was just 10s to go get the fire starter.
 
Sheila
Oh my gosh,
 
Rebecca
Isn't that bonkers? Isn't that like you cannot make that up? That is in this book. And so then it gets better.
 
Sheila
So you want me to get up with the wet towel.
 
Rebecca
So then here's, but here's the, the solutions for the mental load issues.
 
Sheila
Okay.
 
Rebecca
One, rethink your assumptions about how she is, how she thinks.
 
For example, consider maybe she's not trying to hassle you by wanting to talk about 14 things. As soon as you come through the door at work. She really does have 14 files open and running, and she can't just not think about something that may be unresolved from the morning.
 
So it's like, so just rethink how you think about it. But I'm like, that's fine. We can do the cognitive before the behavior. That's fine. Okay. Then to realize you may not be the issue even if you're affected by the issue okay. So it's possible you're the problem, but more likely now that you're aware of all the traffic streaming through her consciousness, you can see why you shouldn't just jump to the usual conclusion of oh, she thinks I did something wrong again.
 
So all this is ego cushioning for the man? Yes. Even though she is stressed because you're not doing stuff.
 
Sheila
You're letting your kids start fires.
 
Rebecca
Yeah, and then the last bit is about. It's just like, probably like one page in this entire book. Be her hero and help her clear those distracting or painful windows so they don't keep coming back. Most importantly, remember that, cause it's harder for her to just push something out of her mind. There's more of a risk that she'll be living in a marginally unhappy state for hours or days if something is wrong.
 
Thankfully, you can have an important part in resolving it. Realize the futility of telling her. Just don't think about it and encourage her if she needs to take some action to close.
 
Sheila
She needs to take some action.
 
Rebecca
Encourage her. Encourage her to take action. Maybe you should just go pack the swim. The swim bag now, honey, maybe you should just email the teacher now, honey. Well, if you're so worried about Johnny's appointment, maybe you should just put it in your calendar.
 
Sheila
Yeah.
 
Rebecca
Even better. And this is where we finally get into some. I'm going to read you the entire section that gives him some actual action. This is everything in this entire chapter. I cannot emphasize.
Enough. This is everything.
 
Sheila
Everything
 
Rebecca
Everything, everything in the chapter that is told to men in an entire chapter that is just describing mental load.
 
Sheila
Okay?
 
Rebecca
That implies that he should do something about it. That does not tell the woman to do more chores.
 
Sheila
Okay.
 
Rebecca
So they don't bother her anymore, right? Even better to take so this can be what I'm emphasizing.
 
Sheila
The whole thing.
 
Rebecca
So I don't care if it's long, I'm going to read the whole thing okay. Okay. So I want to make sure that I'm fair to this guy.
 
Even better is to take some action yourself. Get up from the dinner table. Go get her the fire starter and say I want it to be sure you can enjoy the dinner without worrying. Be one of the few. The proud, the end of no heroes.
 
That's it, that's it. That is the only time that men are told to take action. And it's about something like moving the fire starter. What they don't say anywhere here is work through your schedule. Make sure there's not too much on her plate. Make sure that you are.
 
Sheila
Realizing it's not about helping her. It's about the fact that you are responsible for all of these things too.
 
Rebecca
That's your chapter. I cannot emphasize enough. It has four lines of text, yeah, and it's coming right after the men were encouraged to, in their new enlightened state, tell the woman to just go deal with it now so it doesn't keep bothering her.
 
Sheila
Right. So Connor was supposed to say, honey, so if the dishes are bothering you, you can just go do them.
 
Rebecca
Pretty much. Yeah. We were concerned and confused. Why? Mental load was a problem. Yeah, because he was like, well, I'm being very aware of how stress this makes or and how that affects me. I'm being very good. And then I'm being glib because Connor was actually never like that he actually understood. He needed to do that stuff. I don't want to make it sound like he wasn't.
 
Sheila
But obviously Jeff wasn't like this. Isn't this, to be honest? Okay.
 
Rebecca
Okay, so we're going to skip. They have a whole chapter on like security and how financial security and emotional security, like often men will become workaholics, but women would much prefer to have a happy and healthy relationship than to have more money. There are issues with it but it's fine. We can say okay. But I just want to make sure I didn't mention that that chapter exists.
 
Okay. But then we have this chapter called Listening is the solution. Chapter five. Why her feeling about the problem is the problem and how to fix your urge to fix it.
 
Sheila
Okay.
 
Rebecca
So we start with this example. Like I understand what they're trying to say. But to me it felt really bizarre. So it starts with an essence. Shaunti was supposed to be on CNN. The interview fell through okay. And so then she's talking about the Shaunti side. I'm just a little bummed about CNN, she said, I know how networks work. I shouldn't have gotten my hopes up.
 
When I asked if she knew why it fell through, she shook her head. Not really. They said, Everyone loved the topic, but when they got to the production meeting, some segments just had to be cut. Nothing personal. Since I really wanted to cheer her up, I decided the time was perfect to give Shaunti one of my best counts, your blessings pep talks.
 
But wow. Think about what an amazing opportunity. This even to be in a position to be considered by CNN. I said I know, but I think about what a blessing it is to be on other radio and TV all the time to be able to share this message and save marriages. Well, we don't know about saving marriages, but you know what it is. Yeah, but it's not the same as CNN. Oh, I don't know. You've had 5. Million viewers on that Hollywood talk show last month. I smiled.
That's a lot of people. To my surprise, my reasonable, well-adjusted wife suddenly got angry. I'm trying to tell you something, and you're acting like you don't even care. She stood up from the table and seemed to be fighting back tears. She'd really caught me off guard. My mind started whirring. You've got to be kidding me, I thought, you think I don't care?
 
What do you think? I've been trying to show you this last time I tried to encourage you, but of course I didn't say any of that. Instead I muttered my two tried and true gems. Okay, fine. Then I shut down and went to see what was on TV.
 
Sheila
All right, well, that's highly dysfunctional.
 
Rebecca
Well, I'm just like. And to be fair, I think they're trying to present it as dysfunctional. But this is also like after she wrote For Women Only, and they're supposed to be in the habit of saving marriages and being in a good place.
 
Sheila
Okay, can I just say something, though? Yeah. He wasn't trying to fix it.
 
Rebecca
No, like he was trying to encourage her.
 
Sheila
If you were trying to fix it, you would say something like.
 
Rebecca
Well, that's okay. Like we can just try to get like you can get into, okay, well, I'll email this person and I'm going to read them the riot act and I'm going to do this.
 
Sheila
Or you can say, well, let's, let's take the picture you gave to CNN, and we'll send it to Fox and Friends or whatever, like, yeah, whatever, whatever is.
 
Rebecca
Going to have. Her on. Yeah. Like that.
 
Sheila
He wasn't fixing it. He was, he.
 
Rebecca
Was her biggest cheerleader. Yeah. Like I'm just sitting there and I'm like that the whole conversation, I'm like, I would feel better if Connor did that to me.
 
Sheila
Yeah, that does.
 
Rebecca
Actually, it sounds like he's feeling. Like he's understanding what she's feeling. He's understanding that she's feeling down and she's feeling rejected. So he's like. Hey, you are a superstar.
Yeah, like. You did a really good job. You have lots of people listening and like, you've been able to do all this really great stuff. And like CNN doesn't deserve you. It's kind of like the vibe that I'm getting here. I'm like, that's actually what I want. That makes me feel seen and heard.
 
Sheila
Yeah, that would really help me too.
 
Rebecca
And then she snapped at him, and yelled at him. And he was just like, okay, we're fine, I watch TV, so it makes me think that this conversation probably went a little bit differently than how it would in my marriage, considering that's how it ended.
 
Yeah, but my other thing too is like, do you all, when you read books, you have to look at the examples they get from their own marriage. Because I'm sorry, this is a recent example.
 
Sheila
Yeah.
 
Rebecca
This is within the last year.
 
Sheila
This isn't like this isn't like before we learned.
 
Rebecca
No
 
Sheila
To be more mature.
 
Rebecca
And I mean like this is a real problem. Like there's no reason she couldn't have said, like, I understand. Thank you, but I just feel sad. Yeah. And I just want to say yeah.
 
Sheila
And I want to feel sad right now.
 
Rebecca
Why couldn't she communicate that? Right. And then of course he's fine and goes and watches TV instead of being like, hey, I screwed up. I'm sorry.
 
Like, yeah, it just was bizarre to me that I'm. like, now, to be fair, he's using this as an example of how he needed to learn that she needed a listening ear and he was trying to fix her problem. You know, he wasn't trying to fix her right? Yeah. But I'm like, then why do you think that you should be giving marriage advice if this is dynamic in your marriage? Yeah, I don't understand. Yeah, but there was nothing.
 
That really screwed me and Connor up, because I actually am someone who really, really wants to know that someone cares about my problems enough to think about how to fix them and like, I don't want Connor to be like, oh, I'm so sorry and just offer nothing i want him to be my biggest cheerleader and be like, no, you are not allowed to get ruminating and anxiety and depression here. You're awesome. You've done great things.
 
You don't need them. Like, I need him to be my cheerleader. And instead, like the advice here.
Is all the stuff that you're normally being told which is she doesn't want you to fix it. Right, right.
 
And I'm like but what about those of us who actually are emotionally like the way that we work is what we actually do want it fixed. We don't want to just sit in the pain all the time. And that actually the reason that I married him is because I actually really like his input, and he actually makes my life a lot better.
 
Sheila
Yes.
 
Rebecca
And there aren't really a lot of ways here in this chapter where men are taught how to help their wife fix problems. It's just about how to, like, learn that listening is the solution, and sometimes it actually is. And there are men and women. There are people who, because they're uncomfortable with feelings, will jump in with contingencies and logistics. Right, right, right. But that's not the same as being like, you know, my friends at work aren't inviting me out to their lunches anymore and that's making me feel really sad. I'm like, oh, I'm so sorry to hear that, honey. You know, maybe.
 
Just you could focus on the friends that deserve you. Yeah. You know, like, that's not. The same thing is trying to fix your problem. That's just being a person. Yeah. And caring about them and trying to like and hear them. Yeah. Like I don't know.
 
Sheila
Yeah. It's a weird dynamic. It's like it's very dynamic.
 
Rebecca
Yes. But this is also and that was not helpful at the beginning of our marriage because I actually am someone who wants to find solutions to things. The way that I feel seen and feel validated is knowing that someone sees it from my perspective, and is able to work through it with me. And that we can come to conclusions together. Like that actually is like, yeah, you. Really did hear me because he offered solutions that actually match my problem. Right? Not just like brushing me off like, well, did you do something? Yeah, like, you know what I mean? Yeah, I don't know.
 
Rebecca
And then they talk about, of course, their survey results. Which shows that women don't want your suggestions.
 
Sheila
Okay.
 
Rebecca
They don't want you to talk when they have problems. Okay. And they ask this question. Suppose you had a fairly serious conflict with someone important to you and have been dealing with strong emotions about it all day. That evening you start to tell your husband, your significant other, what happened and how you feel about it. After listening for a little bit, he jumps in with a reasonable suggestion for fixing the problem. How is this most likely to make you feel?
 
Sheila
Well, first of all is not what Jeff did.
Rebecca
Right? I do want to make that clear. Yes, 5% said, well, great, because now I know what to do. 35% said I'm interested in his suggestion, and I would want to discuss it more. 38% said, I appreciate the suggestion, but at the moment, what I really need is for him to show emotional support by listening more. 14% said, actually, I really don't want or need his suggestion at the moment. What I really need is for him to show emotional support by listening more. 2% said I need his emotional support and I'm actively hurting that he's not listening to me. And 5% said I'm upset and hurt because not only is he not showing emotional support, but it also actually seems like he jumped in with the suggestion to cut me off, so he didn't have to listen anymore.
 
Okay, okay, but did that happen or not? First of all, but also, that means 40% of women actively enjoy when their husband gives them advice. Yes, 40% is not a small minority. Yeah, that is a sizable minority of women. And so writing an entire chapter where you're ignoring 40% of your own data set is wild.
 
Sheila
Yeah. Can I also say, can I also just be a bit of a stats person and say how bad that wording is for the potential answers? Because, okay, let me just see. Let me just see. All right. So it's like I'm upset and hurt because no, not only is he not showing emotional support, but it also actually seems like he jumped in with a suggestion to cut me off, so I didn't have to listen anymore.
 
Rebecca
But that's not what the question said.
 
Sheila
Yeah, so what if it should be something like this. How is this most likely to make you feel? I really appreciate it. I somewhat appreciate it. I like it.
 
Sheila
Like I just need to.
 
Rebecca
Some sort of And at least once again for all of her Questions need to be broken into 2 or 3 questions asking things that are too complicated.
 
Sheila
Yeah. Because you have so many assumptions in the possible answers that aren't in the question but more than the invalid.
 
Rebecca
Yeah. Something that Shaunti does repeatedly with her data set is she combines responses that are not actually measuring the same thing. Yeah. Okay. So for example, in For Young Women Only, she had a survey question where she asked boys if during a makeout if during a consensual makeout encounter, again, not just Christian boys.
 
Sheila
Just representative.
 
Rebecca
Of America in general. Right. If they'd be able to stop sexual progression in a consensual makeout where she if they.
 
Sheila
Would want to if they would want to and would be able to stop both those things.
 
Rebecca
And like 13% of boys said, why would I want to stop it? Yeah, a couple more said, like, I would, I might go a little bit farther than I intended, but like, yeah, I'd be able to stop. And then I went and she said that 87% of boys were unlikely and felt a little ability and a little responsibility to stop making a decision. But when you actually break it up based on who stopped and who didn't and their self-reported stats, you had about 50/50.
 
Sheila
Yeah.
 
Rebecca
And so that's a really different take.
 
Sheila
To be consensual, not non-consensual. And yet she was and yet she applied it to non consensual.
 
Rebecca
Including boys who don't have a moral reason to not have sex before marriage because it was not only.
 
Sheila
Well a Christian reason they might have a moral reason they might have another reason.
 
Rebecca
But no, no, no. What I'm saying is this represents boys who have no moral reasons. Yes. I don't think this is nationally represented, don't care what religion you are, because Muslim boys also have a reason to. That's the thing that's like they don't have a moral reason. I was like, why would I want to stop it? Yeah. Like yeah. Exactly. That included those boys. And she said they don't have any ability or responsibility. It's like if you were saying I'm uncomfortable those boys might back off. Yes. You don't know? You didn't ask them.
 
Sheila
You know what, Becca? The internet can sometimes be a really, really terrible place.
 
Rebecca
Absolutely.
 
Sheila
But I have a happy place.
 
Rebecca
We do.
 
Sheila
That is our Patreon group on Facebook. It's the place where I go, where I need some encouragement, where I just need to bounce something off of people to see if I'm crazy or not. And also where I get the best ideas for our podcasts and our blog posts.
 
Rebecca
Absolutely. And we also have a lot of fun there too. We've created a fantastic community where we, you know, share funny memes that we've seen throughout the week, and we talk about the terrible takes that we saw on Instagram. And you can go somewhere and know that you don't have to defend your belief that women should have rights.
 
So if you are looking for a way to support this podcast, if you love what we do and you want to give us a tangible step up, you can join our Patreon for as little as $5 a month and get access to our Facebook group, where you'll get to join in the fun and know that you're supporting a fantastic cause.
 
Sheila
To join our Patreon! It's just Patreon.com/baremarriage. Or take a look at the link in the podcast notes.
 
Rebecca
But here's what we do here. So remember those stats I told you, 5% said great to know what to do. 35% said I'm interested. I'd like to discuss it more. And then the men. Even if a man provided a very reasonable solution to the problem under discussion, only 5% of women said that that would actually solve their problem.
 
Sheila
Oh my goodness.
 
Rebecca
Add it up guys, 95% of women feel that a reasonable solution would not solve their problem. That is not what they found. That is flat out. That's not what they found. They found that 40%.
women are actively happy that the man gave advice. 38% of women appreciate his suggestion but would like to deal with the emotions first. And only 21% of women do not want him to give advice. Wow, that's what they actually found.
 
Sheila
Wow.
 
Rebecca
And they said 95% of women don’t want it. And that is flat out not what they found.
 
Sheila
Wow. Not what they found
 
Rebecca
Again then, 5% are really awesome. That's my plan now. 35% are. yeah. Let's talk about that more that could work. And then 38% were like I appreciate the suggestion. Like, yeah, like we can talk about that. But first let's deal with the emotional stuff.
 
Sheila
Right?
 
Rebecca
Right. That is like, that's 79%.
 
Sheila
So the question is, why did they do that? Yeah. Like why they did that. Yeah. Because it's so blatantly wrong. Like it's so blatantly not what they found.
 
Rebecca
And again the story from Jeff and Shaunti does not even match up with what they're saying here. Jeff did not offer any reasonable suggestions.
 
Sheila
No. He just wanted to say hey I think you're awesome. Yeah.
 
Rebecca
He was like hey you got battered down by life, I'm going to build you back up. And she's like, screw you. Yeah. And I'm just sorry, but that's actually, it's a really an emotionally unhealthy response. Yeah, it is perfectly fine to be like, I see what you're doing, but that's just not what I need right now.
 
It's not actually very acceptable. It's like someone trying to make you feel better and you being like, you're the worst. Okay? Like, that's really mean. Yeah. I'm sorry, I just, my problem is I come away from For Women Only and For Men Only, thinking that both Shaunti and Jeff are really mean to each other. And are not actually very nice to each other? And I'm like, no, why are you writing marriage books? Because you clearly don't even really like your own marriage.
 
Sheila
Yeah.
 
Rebecca
And it's really sad. But like I'm like I'm just like can you imagine if, like you were trying to build up your friend like, no, like I love you. You look so hot. You look great. Like we're gonna kill it tonight at, like, you know, the wedding. Like we're going to, like, work on the dance floor to be awesome. And then she was like, screw you Like, yeah, that's right. You would not have that friend anymore. Yeah, right. Like, oh, my, it's just wild.
 
Sheila
Yeah. But I'm still stuck on, like, why did they so blatantly misrepresent that like, why are they so wedded to the idea? And it seems to me that they are just wedded to believing every single gender stereotype to the extreme,
 
Rebecca
Not just that, they are wedded to believing every single gender stereotype that happens in their marriage. Yeah, because they did not find those results. But it is what happens in their marriage. Shaunti snaps at Jeff when he doesn't answer something right. And so therefore, that must be how women are. So it's not Shanti’s fault. Yeah, it's how women are. And Jeff does this. Well then, in For Women Only, they give the example of how when they're walking through Central Park, whenever a woman on rollerblades goes right by Jeff, he would have to look to the sky. So he wouldn't just focus on her boobs or butt or whatever it was. Yeah. And so it's not just that Jeff does that. It's how men are. Yeah. And I really think that For Women Only and For Men Only, having read both books, the only the only logical thing is that these people are trying to rationalize the toxic dynamics in their own marriage by baptizing it in shoddy research and theology, so that they don't actually have to do the hard work to change to become a better spouse.
 
Yeah, and that's awful to say. But like, I'm sorry, the example they give from their own marriage are really weird. Yeah, like Jeff calling women. swamps. Like, yes. You're it was even weird in 2007 or whenever this came out like Shaunti snapping at him for trying to, like, build her up emotionally. It's weird.
 
Sheila
It's weird and sad. And I'm also really struck in that whole chapter on how women don't want you to fix something. They're only basing it on these really stupid survey questions they asked, and they're not referring to any other studies where there have been so many peer reviewed studies done on these samples that are way larger than the ones that they used.
 
Rebecca
I know there's whole areas of research that are all about relational conflict, relational reconciliation. How do people communicate? Social psychology. Hello? Are you there? Yeah. Like there's yeah, studies of this. And they are just literally talking about none of it.
And it directly all maps on to the examples of how they treat each other.
 
Sheila
Yeah. And again, somebody bought this book for Connor in 2015 because he was a new Christian. And he had to understand what it was, what it was to be a Christian has been. So that's what's happening is these are the books and these books together have sold. Is it 3 million copies? I think it's I think it's 3 million copies, like For Women Only and For Men Only
like her whole metaverse of these have and the majority. The best-selling one of course, was For Women Only, but For Men Only sold fairly well, too. And so these books were like the books that we gave to newlywed couples like you guys. Right? And so well-meaning Christians are buying these books to give to newlywed couples, and they're not based on anything?
 
Rebecca
No.
 
Sheila
At all, like rigorous. No. And they just pander to the most ridiculous, condescending stereotypes.
 
Rebecca
Talking about that. Okay, we're into the second part that Connor and I thought about, okay.
 
In this chapter about how women just need you to listen, not fix it. He says this, this is a big like subheading, okay? She just wants you to listen equally. She wants you to focus on her feelings. Not the problem. She's not sharing something so you can fix it. She's sharing it so you can understand how she feels about something's bothering her.
 
Sheila
So it's more important that you're angry that the dishes are done, that. That the dishes actually get done.
 
Rebecca
Yeah, Exactly. Okay. And so then he's. And then I skipped. I'm just skipping a bunch of this very, very long. But she needs to get her feelings hurt. Explain something that's confusing for many of us. If she doesn't want me to fix it, we wonder why she keeps talking about it? Look at these revealing comments from women. Most men feel they need to fix areas of concern for the wife and family, but when he jumps in before I am finished, he proves he isn't interested in listening to something that is important to me. This leaves me feeling devalued.
 
First of all, that's different from offering solutions. And yes, like that's a different thing. Cutting in and cutting someone off because you're uncomfortable their feelings are not the same as trying to fix someone's problems because you are actively listening. Yes. Right? Yes. But this is the big one that Connor talked about. Okay. When we talked about this book. Just being able to share what's going on actually fixes something for a woman.
 
Sheila
Okay.
 
Rebecca
And so what ended up happening was Connor stopped being my sounding board. And we'd get into these fights, or I'd be stressed about something, and I'd want it to be desperately fixed. I also was very anxious back then, like I was dealing with a lot of stuff, and I would turn to Connor and I'd want support, not just a listening ear. I want support, true support in the social work psychology kind of way. I want this load to all be on my shoulders because I need help, and he'd just sit there and be like, I'm so sorry you're having such a hard time.
 
And I'm like, okay. But like that, I didn't marry a frickin stuffed animal like say something like, I want your opinion. And I was missing my person because he shut off his brain in conversations with me just so that he could listen. He was very good at affirming my feelings. Yeah, but I am not someone who needs my feelings placated. I'm actually someone who needs my feelings challenged. You know, and a lot of us who struggle with anxiety, with depression, with mental health issues, a lot of us are in that same boat. We're like, I actually need you to tell me, I understand how you're feeling. Also, this does have an easy solution. We are going to do it because you don't actually get to wallow in this forever. Yeah, really. That is often the benefit of being married.
 
Sheila
And he's actually quite good at doing this.
 
Rebecca
Very good at it. Yeah. And I'm also good at doing it for myself. But what's one of the beautiful things about marriage is you don't have to carry the whole load. And when I look at this whole chapter, first of all, they conflate so many different things. They conflate the man who doesn't want to talk about emotions with the man who will annoyingly interrupt his wife and offer a solution that isn't even related to what she's talking about, to the man who doesn't care about how the stuff is affecting her and might have good solutions, but it makes her feel unloved and unheard because he doesn't bother listening first, and he sees her problems as flighty with the man who listens and affirms and doesn't offer solutions with the man who listens, understands the problem, and then wants to help problem solve as just a part of relational conversation.
 
All of those are treated the same as fixing what, except for the one who doesn't fix it all? But you know me. Like all the ones who are offering solutions, are all treated the same when.
 
That's not the same thing. What I would love to see is what does healthy problem-solving look like versus what does it not? What are the steps? Right. And I do try to kind of give that okay. And I do want to give a big caveat, which is that for the men who are uncomfortable with emotions. Who needs a corrective, I don't think the shock would be bad for them. Like for the men who are not comfortable with their wives’ emotions, who, because of being emotionally stunted because of patriarchy, all that different stuff, right? All that, yada.
 
Okay. I don't think so. This is necessarily bad for them. The advice is like, hey, you don't need to see everything. Like, you know, the men who like when you talk to them, they start getting flustered. Well, then I'll frigging do it. Like, no, like slow down here or out. And then when she's got it out, you guys can figure it out together. That's good. But there just wasn't a lot of practical application of how you actually work through problems together. Nowhere in this book does it actually teach couples how to get through conflict. It's just about reassuring her and listening and not saying anything. And those are not actually good conflict resolution strategies.
 
Have this section and it's supposed to be funny. Okay. Warning: don't try these at home. How not to listen. There's nothing more dismaying to a guy when he's sincerely trying to win, to be loving and helpful, but he only commits an error. She gets hurt or angry or both. Suddenly the man is the problem. Some collected coaching advice in the heat of an inning never, one told her she's overreacting two, and questioned her versions of the facts. Three wonder aloud about the time of month four. Ask her to quit crying or five offer spiritual correction. Are you sure you're not just envious? And I'm like, I understand that, but also this is benevolent sexism. Yeah, I'm sorry, but it is the idea that, like, again, it's Like, but what if she is just being jealous and toxic? You should be able to call out your spouse like, honey, I actually think this is on you. I'm sorry. Like, I'm so in your corner. This is one where I might be slightly outside of your corner. Like you should be able to do that. And like, I am so sorry, but like.
 
If you are someone who has PMDD and gets suicidal, your spouse being like, hey.
 
You need to check the calendar because you're acting like this might be a medical issue right now. And if it's not, I'm so sorry. But like, I'm worried that you're spiraling because of a medical issue, not because of this. And we can actually deal with the problem. But I just want to make sure that we're dealing with the problem while we understand that your reaction to it is being affected by hormones.
 
Sheila
Yeah. It's outsized.
 
Rebecca
That is that you are actually allowed to do that. I'm sorry. I hate the stereotype that you're not allowed to bring up these things. You're not there to bring them up, to diminish what they're saying.
 
Right. But when I am in a full-blown ADHD meltdown, not since I've gotten diagnosed. If I have like just one of those most. I'm just having a lot of corners and I'm being able to communicate.
This is 90% ADHD, 10% problem. We have to deal with the 10% problem. But I'm not allowed to lash out at you because of my 90% ADHD.
 
Right? Well, that is important and you do not need it to sit and be emotionally battered by someone else's hormones or like mental health. Or neurodevelopmental problems. Like you are not required. Because I'd be very honest, a lot of women who have PMDD get very aggressive and very emotionally volatile. And I'm like, I know that sounds like a silly hill to die on
 
Sheila
And PMDD is?
 
Rebecca
PMDD is Premenstrual Dysphoric Disorder. It's pretty severe. It's a really awful thing to go through. You have intense emotional and psychological symptoms like extreme irritability, depression, anxiety and severe mood swings in the 1 to 2 weeks before your period starts. And it usually gets better after a period starts, right? But this is a big issue. Your brain just does not react to the hormones very well. Okay, I had a version of this with nursing with my first actually when I nursed for 15 minutes, I was like I saw red. It was awful. For the first couple of weeks it was a lot. I had a lactation dysphoric response. And once Connor and I realized that was going on, we could talk about it.
 
Yeah. And then it was like, oh, I don't get angry when I'm experiencing that, actually, because I know it's going to go away. Yeah. Like you get that, like you can take note of this.
problems and you can address them when you're not in the middle of them. But I do worry that like often, I just know that we get so many messages from people being like, well, my husband freaks out at me, but I know what ADHD does, I know it is his autism or like, you know, and women can do that too.
 
Yeah. And no one deserves to be emotionally battered or have to walk on eggshells because your partner has a medical problem going on, or a neurodevelopmental problem or anything going on. Like you need to find solutions, and you are actually allowed to name.That you're not allowed to use to dismiss them. You don't say, well, this is just you're just crazy because of X, y, z. You're not allowed to do that. But also, I don't like the way that we talk about these things. So I think it removes responsibility on the person who's causing harm.
 
Sheila
Yeah, absolutely. Okay.
 
Rebecca
So don't be silly. And I know he's trying to be silly, but you're not allowed to overreact. You're not allowed to question a version of the fact. But what if she's not right? Yeah.
What if she's super mad because your mom said something really, really offensive and it's because she didn't understand the context of what was going on, and she was the only one to have the conversation. Yeah. Like, what if she's not correct? Yeah. Like, sometimes women are not infallible because that's like me. But it is this weird benevolent sexism, which is like you put them on a pedestal, but you we all know they're actually crazy.
 
Sheila
Right? And that's, that's actually like we've read a number of different chapters here of this book, which and all of these books are short, okay. Like they're not, they're not like these last two pages. And the pages are very short and very graphic, like, like with lots of graphics. I mean, so there's not a lot of words.
 
Okay. But the overall take that I'm getting is he's never going to feel about anything the same way she does. No. They're always going to feel totally different. They're never going to see anything the same way. They're two completely different beings. And the goal is just to make her feel like you care about her and you love her, but you never actually have to change or grow in any kind of actual connection.
 
Rebecca
Yeah, there's nothing in there about the ways that men tend to fail their wives, about how dynamics tend to play out, about where areas you might have blind spots. Men are not challenged in this book, right? They're challenged to shut up and placate.
 
Sheila
Yeah. Which is not the route to intimacy at all, because intimacy is about being truly known. And the only way to be truly known is if you do talk about what you are thinking and feeling.
 
Rebecca
Yeah.
 
Sheila
And, that you actually show up with everything you are. Men are told not to show up here.
 
Rebecca
And I'm going to be honest, if you are a man who is genuinely emotionally stunted, which and I, this sounds really mean to say. But the problem is, it does seem, from the evidence of his own examples, that Jeff himself is quite emotionally stunted. You know, it might be beneficial to be told, hey, maybe you need to keep your mouth shut. Like that and be really honest there. Some people need to be told that, yeah, okay. But this is not the secret for all men.
 
Sheila
But I was like, I don't even think, okay, Keith and I, we don't see the world the same in everything. But in most things, like if I'm angry, he's angry too, and vice versa. Like, like we actually tend to approach problems with very similar emotions.
 
Rebecca
Both Connor and I have a high need for security, both Connor and I have a high need for relational harmony. Neither of us are good if we feel the others are mad.
 
Sheila
Yeah, like we are actually.
 
Rebecca
But imagine what it would be like to be married to someone who likes. Whoa, wait. If we're fighting, she feels like we're fighting like, imagine what that would be like. Yeah. It's awful. Like, that's genuinely awful. I can't imagine being married to someone. Who doesn't register that he should have negative feelings if I'm uncomfortable with him or mad at him. Yeah, like that. But that is the entire first two chapters of this book.
 
Sheila
And listen. Okay, there are men and there are people who could really want to like there are people who need to be taught, hey, here's how to tell when someone's experiencing an emotion. And here's the direct response to how to handle people's emotions. Like, like some people just don't get emotional. Yeah, the same people do.
 
Rebecca
Hello, Neurodiversity.
 
Sheila
Yeah. Likely. Yeah. Oh what's that? What's that one called Alexa? The severe. You know what? No. Okay. No. As someone just wrote me a question about it. But yeah, it's like when you really don't understand emotions in the same way. And so you actually do need to be taught, hey, when someone has this facial expression, when they're doing this, then, then they might be upset. So ask them if they're upset. Ask them what you should do. Like show some show. Show some that you care. Yes. Right.
 
Rebecca
Yeah. And I know that you have a friend who works with neurodiversity in marriage.
 
Sheila
Yes. Stephanie Holmes. Okay, Stephanie Holmes, she has a great podcast. She's been on this before, actually, Neurodiverse Christian couples, and she just wrote a book that I just endorsed. I don't know when it's coming up though, but I'm sure we'll have her on Uniquely Us. And it's really good.
 
Rebecca
Yeah, yeah. And I also know that, like. It's not the same, obviously, because I don't have social deficits in the same way because I'm ADHD. But there are lots of things I've also had to do.
Learn because I do genuinely have ADHD. Now, looking back on the ten years of marriage, I'm like, oh, I had to genuinely learn some basic life skills and basic emotional maturity things in my marriage that everyone else had much more easily than me. Right? Like genuinely very basic things, I'm. I will fully own that. We all have areas we have to learn well.
 
And there's nothing wrong with needing to be taught the basics, but what is wrong is he's coming from this perspective of not knowing the basics, assuming no man knows the basics and then perpetuating no one actually knowing the basics because he didn't actually give any real advice. Yeah, like it's all about not speaking up, just listen. And that is helpful. But it's only a part of the picture and it's not an emotionally healthy side.
 
Sheila
Right? No, it's really weird.
 
Rebecca
It's very strange. I can't.
 
Sheila
And what are these books trying to do? Because if what these books are trying to do is to convince you that you are so polar opposite, that you will never understand each other, then it's almost like they're creating the problem so that they can keep propagating a solution. Yeah. Yeah.
 
Rebecca
Yeah. And we're going to get into the rest of the book in the next podcast. And it's going to be, it's going to be good. We're talking about sex and it's really interesting comparing what For Women Only and For Men Only say about sex. Yeah, really
 
Sheila
The differences are so.
 
Rebecca
Yeah. Anyway, I'm very excited for it. It's gonna be good. But the thing that makes sense to me when I'm reading this isn't that these are two people who are in a very bad marriage. They are in a very emotionally immature marriage. And the fact that these examples that they're giving are from the last 2 or 3 years from when they wrote this book, and they still think that they're able to give all this advice. They are examples from a post For Women Only. And they still think that they're in a position to be giving marital advice.
 
Sheila
That's like it. I
 
Rebecca
It shows a lack of awareness. Yeah.
 
Sheila
That is and this especially a lack of awareness of what healthy looks like. Well, this is what I am, this is what I just can't get over is when you read so many evangelical marriage books, the examples they give of their own marriage, it's like, I would never want to be you. And we actually did a podcast on that like years ago. I'll try to remember a link to it, like, would you even want the kind of marriage these people are talking about?
 
Rebecca
I definitely would not want to be married to someone who stopped me if I was trying to make them.
 
Sheila
And if you're if you're reading a book and you're like, I would not want to be like this, then don't follow their advice. That should be a sign that this isn't a good book.
 
Rebecca
or like it's a bad example from a long time ago. Like it's yeah, need to have been like, hey, we couldn't communicate about this. And then we figured out how and that's wonderful. And now it's great. Yeah, it's also fine. People are allowed to learn. But this is a weird thing, like, even just yesterday I saw that this woman was being very concerned about this little thing. That window was open. So I told her, you know, it's not going to close unless you do something about it. And what do you know now? She's all better. Like what? Yeah, like this stuff is ridiculous.
 
But the fact of the matter is, you need that level of lack of self-awareness in order to perpetuate these kinds of cycles and in order to think that you're able to give advice. And so all of this makes sense when you consider that this is just very emotionally unhealthy. People who are trying to rationalize and explain away why their marriage is the way it is and do not take ownership for their own stuff and not actually grow.
 
Sheila
Yeah, and that's a harsh thing to say. It is. And we know it's a harsh thing to say, and we're not trying to be personal in this podcast.
 
Rebecca
And maybe it's changed since then. Yeah.
 
Sheila
I hope it has too. But if you're going to write stuff about yourself like this and then you're going to sell it to millions of people as the answer when it is not based on anything except for totally shoddy research and your own personal opinions then, and your own personal experience. That's what you're putting out there. And church, the reason that we keep going through all of these books that are ridiculous is just to show you this is what has been taught to evangelicals as like the pinnacle. Like Shaunti felt, it has been held up as the pinnacle of research in Christianity. And you heard the research questions. They were pathetic.
 
Rebecca
They're pathetic.
 
Sheila
They're pathetic.
 
Rebecca
I still am not over. 95% of women did not think the solution would help. Actually, 79% of women thought that it would help.
 
Sheila
Yeah, yeah. It's just nuts. And this is what has been held up, and this is what has been promoted in evangelical circles. Like I said, these books, this book series sold like 3 million copies. It's huge. And we just need to do better. Yeah, we need to do better. This is why the evangelical church is hurting so much is because we've believed such crap.
 
You know, if, if, if we want to understand why there's such a fight about women in leadership in churches, because we've been taught that men and women are so polar opposites and so completely different. They can't understand each other. Yeah. So no wonder men in church don't see women as co laborers in the gospel. No, because women are just emotional and flighty.
 
And they're swamp creatures. Yes. Like you know and so we need to do better and not just better by getting rid of these particular books. Because while these particular books are bad, they're not the issue. No better by realizing that we need to start listening to what is healthy and healthy is based on evidence. You know, it's based on like Jesus said, you will know them by the fruit. We have to start judging the fruit. Yeah.
 
Rebecca
And the fruit also includes the examples they actually give about themselves. Yeah. We need to start looking at that because there's no reason this ever should have been considered a good marriage book, because I don't think anyone wants to be in the marriage that he describes.
 
Sheila
Yeah. So check out all our links in the notes. We got a ton of them in the podcast description. We'll be back next week to talk about sex, sex and loss, attraction, attraction, all these different things. Yeah, it gets super sad, super weird, super fun. So yes, we'll see you next week for part two. Bye bye.