Episode 335: If Men Are Leaders...Why Do They Need Women to Fix Them?

What happens when “Christlike manhood” starts sounding suspiciously like Victorian gender roles, male entitlement, and a whole lot of covert nudging? This rage-read of Eric Ludy’s “Warrior Poet Manhood” article unpacks the deeper assumptions behind a theology that tells women to manage, encourage, and even manipulate men into becoming better husbands while men remain in charge. We explore gender stereotypes, power and emotional attunement, the “angel in the house,” and why the upside-down kingdom of Jesus offers a radically different picture of maturity, partnership, and servant leadership.

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LINKS MENTIONED: 

• Eric Ludy’s full article
• Zach Wagner’s book, “Men of Virtue”
• Emerson Eggerichs podcast episode 
• Love & Respect 3-Part Docuseries
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Transcript

Sheila
Does God save women so that women can save men?
 
Hello.  This is the Bare Marriage Podcast, and I'm Sheila Wray Gregoire from Baremarriage.com, where we like to talk about healthy, evidence based biblical advice for your sex life and your marriage. And I am joined today for the first time since we're back this summer by my husband, Keith.
 
Keith
Hey Everybody!
 
Sheila
Okay, so today on the podcast, I want to rage read an article. All right. It's called Warrior Poet Manhood, part two by Eric Luddy. And the way that this got started, was we have just finished this three-part podcast series looking at how purity culture authors have been rewriting history and saying they didn't teach what they clearly did and trying to avoid accountability.
 
So that was a really great series. We did mention Eric and Leslie Luddy in that because of their book, When God Writes Your Love Story and because of that in our patron group, we were talking about them and someone dropped a link in our patron group to this article, and I read it and I was like, oh, there's so many quotes that we could talk about.
 
And I realized it would be better to actually just read the whole thing. Because one of the things we want to do in this podcast is help you all, empower you all to see the red flags, because this kind of conversation that we're going to have today is everywhere in evangelicalism. And sometimes when you're reading a book or you're listening to a pastor, you don't realize it because you're primed to think, well, these guys are authorities. These guys know what they're talking about. And so, we want to take you through the article to show you how, that is so far from reality and so far from Christ likeness that we don't have to pay attention to it.
 
So, our patron group is where I get a lot of our great links. And so just a shout out to our patron group before we start. Patreon is just a great place to get to know us personally, we share stuff there that we don't necessarily share on the public page.  It doesn't cost very much. It's as little as $5 a month. At higher tiers, Joanne is doing some really cool stuff this fall. She's got a book club going on with Pride and Prejudice. She has a course that she's been teaching at a college that she's actually going to teach to the patron group on how to develop your own sexual ethic.
 
You know, that's what is in line with your beliefs and with God and what you, how you feel about other people. Anyway, It's really, really good. The money from the patron goes to support what we do. So, we're working on a bunch of peer reviewed papers, more research opportunities, especially what's happening right now is our Spanish translation project.  So, you're going to hear a lot more about that in the coming months. We do have the Good Girls Guide to Great Sex is out in Spanish if you want to pick that up. For those of you watching on YouTube. Do you want to say it? You're better at Spanish than me.
 
Keith
Chica Buena Sexo Increible
 
Sheila
There you go.  And the Good Guys guide is coming out this Valentine's Day, I think. So both of them will be out and we have plans for Great Sex Rescue. We have plans for putting in the orgasm course, some podcasts, all kinds of stuff in Spanish. So, you'll be hearing about that soon. And when you give to our patron or to our Good Fruit Faith Initiative of the Bosow Foundation, that's what you support and when you give to the Good Fruit Faith Initiative, you can also get a tax receipt.
 
Keith
If you’re in the US
 
Sheila
Yes, if you're in the US. So support us that way or another great way to support us is just to make sure that you like and subscribe to this podcast and rate it. Five stars.
 
Keith
Ok sounds good.
 
Sheila
Okay, that's all the announcements. Do you want to get to the meat of it?
 
Keith
Oh absolutely, it sounds good.
 
Sheila
Okay, so this is an article called Warrior Poet Manhood, Part two.
 
Keith
Okay, can I just say one quick thing?
 
Sheila
Yes.
 
Keith
You start by saying, Did God send women so that women can save men? And it's like, this is what we see all the time.
 
Like this theological thing that is so bad. Everyone goes they didn't say that. Then when we show them that they said that and then they say you took it out of context and then when we show them that was the context and then they go, well, it's God's word. This is how we go around and around and around.  This is not God's word. This is ridiculous stuff that has been added on to God's Word that has become “gospel”. And it needs to get - we need to get rid of it. It's crazy. Sorry.  Thank you
 
Sheila
No thank you, you know exactly. And this is called Warrior Poet Manhood, part two.  We are going to be reading a little bit from part one as well. But it's Warrior Poet Manhood by Eric Luddy.
 
So, we're going to read this article. But the key thing to remember is that it isn't just this article. And so, we're going to we're going to have clips from Toby Martin, Emerson Negridge, Kevin Leman and a whole bunch of other ones, just to show you that this, this philosophy, this theology of manhood and womanhood is not unique to Eric Luddy and is everywhere in evangelicalism.  And we really have to have to defeat it. Okay, so let's just jump in and I'm just going to read paragraph by paragraph.
 
Keith
Sounds good.
 
Sheila
Can you see, can you see this?
 
Keith
Sort of.
 
Sheila
Ok. So is it easier if I read the whole thing?
 
Keith
You can read it.
 
Sheila
It's easier if I read it. Okay. Here we go. So, here's Eric. Most guys today, if asked, could tell you what they want. I want a steak medium rare, with a peanut butter and jelly sandwich on the side, please. I want a lot of money. A black hummer with mud on the tires and a pit bull to protect all my stuff.  I want a bag of Doritos, a six pack, and 70,000 screaming football fans to party with via my big screen TV. Guys tend to know what they want in the female department, too, and they tend to view women as existing entirely for their own selfish pleasure.
 
Keith
Right off the bat, a lot of warrior, not a lot of poet. And not even a really good warrior.
 
Sheila
Well, I think what he's trying to say is men are disgusting scum, and they're totally immature and they don't know what they want. Oh, I.
 
Keith
Oh I see, you're going to make this hummer guy into a Warrior Poet, I got you.
 
Sheila
But I already like it. Like how. Okay, so what are your thoughts?
 
Keith
So stereotypical.  I think this is just crazy.  All men are like this, right?
 
Sheila
Yes.
 
Keith
And it's just crazy. And also too, it's setting up this false dichotomy from the very beginning. You either do God, do manhood the way we prescribe, which we call God's way.
 
Sheila
Right.
 
Keith
Or you’re this caricature?
 
Sheila
Yes.
 
Keith
Right.
 
Sheila
And I'm amazed at how much caricatures come into evangelical teaching. Like it's pretty much everywhere.
 
Keith
Even the good, what they consider the good. Like we’re going to get to this Warrior Poet that we get to eventually.
 
Sheila
Yeah.
 
Keith
It's a stereotype.
 
Sheila
It is like. Yeah, not.
 
Keith
Anyway, it's all crazy and it's all totally like getting rid of the complexity and the individuality and the uniqueness of each individual person to just make them a cookie cutter. This is what this is what you will be if you aren't like this.
 
Sheila
Yes, exactly. It’s crazy. And I want to point out that you have not read this article yet.
 
Keith
No,I did.
 
Sheila
Oh, you did?
 
Keith
I read it a while ago.
 
Sheila
Okay. Because I thought you were cold reacting. So, you have read it. Okay. Okay, here we go. Okay. Next bit. Even writing this, I am profoundly ashamed of what we, as modern day guys have become. The tragic thing is that it seems as if most guys are proud to be this disgustingly predictable. Our problem is, guys, it does not lie in the fact that we are uncertain of our wants, it is that our wants are crippling us, just like an arrow is meant to hit a target.  We as young men are meant to hit a target with our lives to be shaped into men that resemble the manhood of Jesus Christ.
 
Keith
So, this is great. All of that is amazing, right? So, and it's just unfortunate that it just takes a sharp left, right? Yeah. Cause like this call to be better, I think is fantastic. And that's where people get sucked in.
 
Sheila
Yeah.
 
Keith
A lot of these manosphere type people are talking about this idea of being a better man. Which I think is lofty and good and it's inspiring us to more.
 
Sheila
Yeah.
 
Keith
But then, then the others, I think it's attached to it is the problem.
 
Sheila
Yep. Okay. So that part was good. It seems like this culture has trained us to shoot our arrows. No longer the target of majestic madness, but haphazardly straight up into the air. Then like stooges, we can't figure out why the arrows we shot straight up into the air are raining like meteors right down upon our lives and maiming us.
 
Okay, so first of all, I love this majestic madness.  Okay, so there's such a thing as a majestic madness and, and men's wants are crippling them. And what I want us to notice at the very start is that there are no references to any studies here.
 
Keith
Oh, yeah.
 
Sheila
Okay. Which is quite normal in evangelical sermons or whatever, but they're making these claims about manhood as a whole without any references to studies. And what's interesting is that, when you look at the generations in Gen Z and I'm Canadian, I'm going to say Gen Z. I'm sorry, but no, no apologies. That's Canadian.  It’s you who has been apologizing. I'm sorry for being Canadian and that is so Canadian.
 
Keith
Now you’re apologizing for apologizing
 
Sheila
Yes. Oh, gosh. Anyway, Gen Z is a strange generation because it's really gotten very dichotomized in that the young men, there's a large segment of them that are really being sucked in to conservative in the manosphere, but the ones who aren't are actually often very healthy. They're healthier than previous generations. And that's true for a lot of millennial men, too.
 
Keith
Yeah
 
Sheila
Like, millennial men are super involved dads when they're dads. And this isn't just in the church. This is just in general. Millennial dads are way more involved than Gen X dads were and super more involved than boomer dads were. Millennial men are less likely to objectify women in public than older people. I'm just saying that these caricatures, without any basis in studies, really need to stop because its point. It's painting everything as a monolith when it isn't. There's a lot of complexities, and nuances there. Okay. Let's keep going.
 
Keith
Okay.
 
Sheila
I'm sure that for you as a young woman, pondering these things about modern day manhood can be quite discouraging. But I want you to know there is tremendous hope. And what do you think that hope is?
 
Keith
The hope is we’re going to put men back in charge and you're all going to be happy women.
 
Sheila
Okay, here it is. First, there is a new resurgence in Christlike manhood taking place throughout this emerging generation of young men. It will take time to develop, but a new fleet of Warrior Poets is being formed.
 
Keith
Right, so Christlike man, the first thing I think of is service - washing the feet, that kind of stuff.  Nope. Fighting battles and writing poems.
 
Sheila
Well, Warrior Poet to me sounds very much like David, because David was the Warrior Poet. So, it sounds like they're elevating David and I have a I know is it. There's someone I follow on Twitter who's writing a big book about how we need to decenter David in our faith, and I completely agree with that, because I have a real problem with David, like and with elevating him.  And I talk about this in my upcoming book, that's coming out in March. Fawn. How a trauma response became biblical womanhood because God calls David a man after his own heart when he's young. Yeah. Not later. And the fact that we don't emphasize that makes it sound like we're saying you can rape someone, you can murder someone, you can marry multiple women and treat them like dirt and still be a man after God's own heart. And it's like treating women well is not a prerequisite for being a man after God's own heart. And it just bothers me when we elevate David so much because he's a very flawed character, especially when, you know, we could elevate, Keith?
 
Keith
Maybe Jesus.
 
Sheila
Yeah.  What about doing that? But anyway. Okay
 
Keith
Can I say something with this? Because, it reminds me of a book I read back in the 90s called A New Kind of Christian.
 
Sheila
Brian McLaren. Yes.
 
Keith
Brian McLaren and it was talking about how our culture influences our Christianity and that specifically we in the West see that in others where Christianity has gone to other parts of the world, and we see how their culture is influencing their Christianity. But we are so blind to the fact that it's influencing our Christianity.  Like our culture does shape it.  And now it's really quite a good book. And this whole Warrior Poet thing, this is not specifically Christian. If anything, it's the Old Testament. But even then, I don't think it's even from that. I think it's mostly from sort of chivalric knights and all that. And this is a Western culture thing.
 
Sheila
Well, it sounds very much like Wild at Heart. John Elders is Wild at Heart to me, which was not based on the Bible at all.
 
Keith
It's based on.
 
Sheila
Braveheart.
 
Keith
Yeah. Robert the Bruce and Noah and, and William Wallace.
 
Sheila
Yes. Yeah.
 
Keith
These are Western values. Now I'm not saying it makes them bad. But the fact that they don't even realize that they are touting Western culture and calling it Christian. Without realizing that it's not like you know what I mean. Like yeah. Like Western culture, Christianity so wrapped up it's hard to tease the two apart.
 
Sheila
Yes.
 
Keith
But when we see it happen in other cultures, we call it syncretism.
 
Sheila
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
 
Keith
Because of Christlike manhood, the essence of Christ is service.
 
Sheila
And we listen to our podcast; I put a link to it with Zach Wagner in his book Men of Virtue. That we did right before we left for the summer break. Because that really goes into how, yeah, we're supposed to emulate Christ. Men are supposed to emulate Christ. So that's what it means.
 
Sheila
Okay.
 
Keith
All right.
 
Sheila
Ready? Secondly, there's an inspiring new resurgence of set apart womanhood awakening as well and Lives Like Yours, which provides a wellspring of hope that a radical reformation of manhood is on the horizon. So, this article has been written to women about how to find a Warrior Poet.
 
Keith
A radical renewal of manhood and you by your set apart womanhood can make that happen.
 
Sheila
Right? So, the radical reformation of manhood depends on the new resurgence of set apart womanhood.
 
Keith
Yeah
 
Sheila
Okay. So notice this, because this is going to come in. This is going to play a role. And then they go on to say because in every culture one of the dominant forces that determines the quality of its masculinity is the quality of its femininity.  And there it is, folks want him to behave a certain way. It is up to you as women.
 
Keith
Absolutely. What makes a good man is how women behave. So, men should be the leaders.
 
Sheila
Yes.
 
Keith
And women should make that happen.
 
Sheila
Yeah.
 
Keith
And if men are not good leaders. It's because of the women.
 
Sheila
Yes. And that's basically what we're going to hear in the rest of the article. So that's how he set up. That's how we set this whole thing up is hey women if you want this Warrior Poet you know it's going to happen because of you okay. So here we go. We as guys need women.
 
Keith
Is it going to be because you're going to stand up in the fact that you are a child of the King, and you will have a Holy Spirit in you, and you're going to challenge him when he goes off base, and he wants to be one of these dopes at the beginning. You're going to challenge him and you're going to like, call him on his crap and, you know, be iron sharpening iron. Is that what your femininity is?
 
Sheila
Well, let's find out.
 
Keith
Spoiler alert. 
 
Sheila
Let's find out okay. We as guys need women to help us turn our map right side up or in most cases provide us with a whole new map.
 
Keith
Right. Which actually could be good if they're going to go down that pathway I just said, which we know they are not.
 
Sheila
I just thought that the map that we're supposed to have for our lives is from Scripture.
 
Keith
Right.
 
Sheila
And from our relationship with Jesus, not from a woman, but okay. We need
 
Keith
Also too like he's supposed to lead her, but she's the one that actually has the map.
 
Sheila
Right.
 
Keith
Like why can’t you both just look at the map
 
Sheila
Yeah
 
Keith
Like the map is the life of Jesus, of the Scripture. And, you know, we both look at the map, we go together. Why won’t we do that?  Why won’t we do that?
 
Sheila
Yeah. We need young women to help us realize that if we altered our wants, retooled our approach to finding manness and used a new map on our journey, we would end up with far more in our manhood than we ever dreamed or imagined.
 
Keith
Yeah
 
Sheila
So, they can't do it on their own. They can't do it with God. They need women.  They need women.
 
Keith
For those of you who aren't familiar with the channel, the spoiler alert is that the way that you as a woman help your man is by submitting to him and putting yourself under him and letting him be in charge of everything. Yeah, right. So, it's like this, this if it'll be healthy, if it was saying you're going to now be partners and you're both going to try to be better people.
 
Sheila
Yes.
 
Keith
But it's but it's setting you up to say that your guy's only going to be a good man if you do all this stuff, you submit to him and you're not going to just give him the map, you're going to trick him into following the map.
 
Sheila
Yeah. As we're about to hear.
 
Keith
Because if you told him to follow the map, you'd be bossing him around and that would be sin.
 
Sheila
Right
 
Keith
Because that's not what godly women do, right? Godly women deceive their men into following the map
 
Sheila
Yes.
 
Keith
Yes, it’s crazy.
 
Sheila
Okay, here we go. I would like to present four practical things that you, as a young woman, can do right now to help us young men trained to become more selflessly sensitive, to help us cultivate the poet side of godly masculinity.
 
Keith
Hey I’m all in favor of that. I think I'd be great.
 
Sheila
Okay, so.
 
Keith
Cultivating that side of masculinity. That's lovely.
 
Sheila
Okay. So, number one, be tender. Being tender to a guy is different from a guy being tender to a girl. Yeah.
 
Keith
How?
 
Sheila
Yeah.
 
Keith
How?
 
Sheila
I know. Citation please.
 
Keith
Yeah
 
 
Sheila
I know, tenderness is giving to someone else.
 
Keith
We have an answer to that. Yeah. It's because men and women are different beings. Men and women are different species. So, the whole gender essentialism that is inherent in this.
 
Sheila
Yeah.
 
Keith
Right. Tenderness itself is like it's like the fruit of the spirit is love. And women love like this, and men love like that.
 
Sheila
Yeah.
 
Keith
And joy. And women have joy like this and men have joy like that.  No, come on.  It just drives me crazy. Sorry
 
Sheila
Okay. Tenderness is giving to someone else that which they most need in the moment they most need it. It is getting into the skin of someone else, looking at life through their eyes and meeting their needs the way they need the most.
 
Keith
I wouldn't have defined tenderness that way.
 
Sheila
I mean, I wouldn't have defined tenderness that way either. How would you define it?
 
Keith
Tenderness is being like, gentle and kind and careful about how you interact so that you don't cause harm.
 
Sheila
Yeah. If someone is tender, it means that they're very vulnerable. Right?
 
Keith
Oh Yeah. That’s another part of it too. You yourself are soft
 
Sheila
Yeah. Because. Yeah. Because you know you can bruise, you can break easily. And so being tender is treating one another with care like.
 
Keith
Allowing yourself to be vulnerable. Yeah, I hadn't thought of that side
but you’re right. Yeah
 
Sheila
Okay. Ready. This is where we start to see the detour. It's like a big detour. The safest and best way to practice tenderness.
 
Keith
okay
 
Sheila
Is on your dad and brothers.
 
Keith
Oh my gosh. Yeah. I remember this part.
 
Sheila
Guys are motivated and encouraged by very different things than girls. Again citation, please. Okay.
 
Keith
Whatever.
 
Sheila
The way to motivate a guy is to first of all, study him and determine the 2 or 3 things that he enjoys investing his time and energy into. It could be basketball, computers, airplanes, or a million other things. But every guy has an interest and a place in which he invests himself. The second thing to do is to go out of your way to watch him at work.
 
Guys, for some odd reason, love to be cheered on and observed at their craft. If you show excitement for a guy's area of interest, you will gain a unique avenue into his life. A woman who appreciates a man's hard-earned skill is a woman that a man will listen to. And if you compliment a guy after you observe him excelling at his craft, your words will help shape him as a man.
 
Does this remind you of anything?
 
Keith
What's that?
 
Sheila
Well, what I find so funny about all this is how much all of this crap, stuff that has nothing to do with the Bible is repeated by multiple different people.
 
Keith
Oh yeah.
 
Sheila
You know.
 
Keith
This is not in scripture. None of this comes from scripture. This is their view of what it is.
 
Sheila
Yeah. And so here let's listen in.
 
Keith
Can I ask another question, so you like knitting.
 
Sheila
Yeah
 
Keith
And your craft of knitting. When you show me something you knit and I go, oh, my gosh, that is beautiful. Sheila, I can't believe how well you did that. Does that build you up?
 
Sheila
Yeah.
 
Keith
Are you a man? I mean, only men want to be complimented for the crafts they have done.  And the work they've done, only men like to be cheered on. Like this is ridiculous. How do you not see from the beginning, anyway.
 
Sheila
No, I know.
 
Keith
So, if you said cheer on your spouse.
 
Sheila
Yeah.
 
Keith
Good for you.  Why does it have to be on a male female thing?
 
Sheila
But also, this whole. But the whole thing about wanting to be observed is weird.
 
Keith
Yeah. Well because again, the whole concept is the men are the actors. And the women are the supporters.
 
Sheila
Yeah.
 
Keith
And that and that is what they are pushing like men act, women support. Yeah. And you can't flip those.
 
Sheila
Yeah. So, we did a whole podcast on why Emerson doesn't want women talking. But let's listen in. Let's listen to this clip where he says he explains this phenomenon even more.
 
Emerson
We have this couple that came to this conference, and they got into a huge fight because he was out painting, and she looked at him through the kitchen when he said, come out here and be with me.
 
So, she came out, started talking, and he said, I don't want to talk. She said that you got to want to talk. I said, I don't have to want to talk. You have to want to talk because you called me out here. I don't have to want to talk. Can I call you out here? I just wanted you with me. She stomps off. They had a huge fight.
 
Then they came and heard this. And so, she applied. Because women are very teachable. So, then he still pays. She comes out with a lounge chair and just sits there. No book, no suntan lotion. And she didn't critique. He missed a spot, but she just sat there and watched him, and she said it was absolutely mind boggling.
 
Once he realized what she was doing, that she was applying, and he started grinning.
 
And she sat there for 45 minutes and got up, not saying anything. And she said that energized you. He said oh, yes, you have no idea. And she said, no, I don't.
 
Keith
Yeah. I knew you were going to play that clip. Yep, yep. Watching him work. Yeah.
 
Sheila
Watching him paint a wall and we'll put a link to that whole podcast in the podcast notes, because it's a good one to listen to. It's really good. And if you haven't watched our documentary on love and respect, a three-part document series, it's so good. Rebecca and Joanna did it earlier this year. I didn't have much to do with it, but they just did an awesome job.
And episode three will blow you away like episode one. And to really paint the picture so well. But then episode three brings it all home. So, we're going to put a link to that docu series too.
 
Keith
I Think This Is the Thing, one of your podcasts we see you're talking about how, like, people are using the same words, but they're saying different things. Right. And I think this is, this is one of those instances right, where if you're not in this whole evangelical world and you hear wives, you know, watch what your husband does and cheer him on.
 
Sheila
Yeah
 
Keith
That doesn't sound unhealthy.
 
Sheila
No, it isn't.
 
Keith
But the thing is that it's riding on the coat tails of the kind of crap that I was just saying when they say watch him, they mean put yourself in the background and specifically become a spectator in his life. And that is what's the important thing. Yeah. And that's crazy. Yeah. Anyway,
 
Sheila
Okay, so that's one way that he just borrows from someone else, but not the Bible. Here's the next bit. Remember, the words of a woman have the power to make a man either a prince or a peon. Please use that power the way God intended it to be used and help us become princes.
 
Keith
Yeah, again, it's your fault.
 
Sheila
It's your fault.
 
Keith
It’s your fault he is a peon.  Nobody to blame but you.
 
Sheila
Yeah. Now many of you will remember Josh Howarton saying give him a crown and he'll become a king. But Josh Howarton often plagiarized from a friend of his, Toby Martin. When he apologized for the wedding night joke, he plagiarized Toby Martin's apology. There's an article in the Royce report about that. Here's Toby Martin saying something.
 
Toby Martin
Words of encouragement on the lips of a wife are like gold in the heart of a husband. Every man you talk to inside of him is both a king and a jester. And you're going to get the one you talk to. And so, you can consistently use your words to crown him or to shame him. And guys aren't really good at saying, hey, babe, I need to talk about my feelings.
 
I think I'm in a spiritual depression and do not believe it. It doesn't usually go that way. But ladies, you're intuitive and you're smart, and you've got to understand that the dude is not good for him to be alone. So, he sent you to be wise, to discern, to see through what he is saying, to see what he's actually saying, so that you can be an echo of what God wants to say to the brother and speak life into him.
 
And so, your man might be crying out for help and he's crying out to you. And oftentimes the reason they don't do it is because they have a bad experience the first time, they do
 
Keith
Yeah.
 
Sheila
Yeah.
 
Keith
Crazy.
 
Sheila
So, you know, if you want him to be the king you've got to speak to the right person. Because if he acts inappropriately, it's because you were speaking to the wrong guy.
 
Keith
Yeah.
 
Sheila
Yes. So, it's up to you.
 
Keith
What I find funny is that they say that they want men to be better. Right?
 
Sheila
Yes
 
Keith
Like this whole thing is leading like men are stooges firing arrows into the air. Men are all these stereotypes that we want men to be better. They don't preach to the men to be better. They preach to the women to make them in. Yeah. Right. Because when you watch the preaching to men, they don't preach the men to be better.
 
Keith
Like everything I see in the evangelical world is, this is what men are like. And I'm not saying it's right, but this is what men are like. And to the men, the only thing they preach then is you need to step up to leadership.
 
Sheila
Yeah.
 
Keith
That's what God has called you to his leadership. They don't talk about self-discipline, they don't talk about service. They don't talk about all the other virtues. It's only leadership.
 
Sheila
Yeah.
 
Keith
Right. Because that is what they are about. They are not about making better men. They're about keeping men in charge. Yeah. So, all this rings hollow to me because I know what the real agenda is.
 
Sheila
Yeah. And the whole thing. Okay. Like the idea that women, you have such power and this is amazing. God may do with such influence. It sounds kind of like elevating women. Like. It sounds like it's saying, you know, women, you know, you were made for this. This is incredible what you can do. But what it's actually doing is reinforcing this situation where men aren't accountable for what they do, where if a man acts badly, it's because she didn't do something right.  You know, somewhere like if a man does something wrong, a woman somewhere dropped a ball.
 
Keith
Right? Exactly.
 
Sheila
You know,
 
Keith
It's kind of the other half of the other side of the coin of the burden of leadership.
 
Sheila
Yes. Right. Like John Piper talks about that.
 
Keith
I don’t want to be in charge because I am a power-hungry person. I don't want to be in charge because I am a selfish person like every human being and I want things to work for me. That's not why I want to be in charge. I want to be in charge.   It's a burden for me to be in charge.
 
Sheila
Right.
 
Keith
And you actually have all the power.
 
Sheila
Yeah.
 
Keith
And you have all the power.  Because you can change me and make me however you want to make me. So, it's like my side gets all the authority and none of the responsibility. You're just like it's all the responsibility and none of the authority.
 
Sheila
Yes.
 
Keith
How fair is that?
 
Sheila
Exactly. And John Piper was the one who said that about the burden of responsibility. I mean, other people have said it too, but he said it famously in recovering biblical manhood and womanhood. And, you know, he said that men basically have the harder job because they bear this burden of responsibility, but they also have to, you know, lay down their lives for their wives.  And so, you know, when a woman joyfully submits that everything is great, but he bears the harder job.  And if that were true then when we looked at marital outcomes, we would see that women who are in complementary marriages where the husband you know bears the burden of leadership do better than women in egalitarian marriages because these women, you know, get this burden taken off of them. And we would see that men, you know, feel more tired and have a harder time because they bear the burden of responsibility.  But instead, what we see is that in relationships like this, men have more free time than they do in egalitarian marriages. Men are happier. Women are more likely to report being in pain, have more autoimmune disorders.  Like this, there isn't a burden of leadership on the men. The burden falls on the women.
 
Keith
Guess what?
 
Sheila
Yeah.
 
Keith
Partners together are healthy. Having one person in charge of the other is unhealthy. Who would have thought that?
 
Sheila
Yeah. Okay, let's keep going.
 
Keith
Okay
 
Sheila
This is. This is just wild. Be covertly creative.
 
Keith
Covertly creative.
 
Sheila
Covertly creative.  My mom learned the secret of how to nudge me when I was around the age of 14. She realized that anytime she forced me to do something like learn to play the piano, take art lessons, or join the swim team, I stiffened up like a board, folded my arms, and refused to enjoy myself.  But if she creatively placed the opportunity in front of me in such a way that I got excited about the idea seemingly on my own, instead of complaining about the idea, I would actually be begging her to allow me to do it. This sounds a lot like Emerson Edgar’s book , Mothers and Sons, about how women need to respect their sons to get, you know, because this is an innate need.
 
So, he is seeing his mother with contempt, right? Anything that she says has to be stupid. And so, and instead of confronting that attitude, they are reinforcing that attitude by saying the only way to get him to do something is to trick him and manipulate him into it.
 
Keith
Again in this culture, a man who stands up and says, you can't make me do that.
 
Sheila
Yeah.
 
Keith
That's a virtue. And so that's why they, they create kids who, who are like that, then they then have to punish to make them knuckle under. Who then rebel against the faith when they become adults.
 
Sheila
Yeah. Right.
 
Keith
Like yeah. They don't see that's what they're doing.  As opposed to creating a culture where a person has their own individual desires. And you help them to not knee jerk react when it's not something they want to do but actually think clearly, logically and critically about. Yeah. You know what actually it would be better for me to study because I’d be a better person or whatever, like helping guide your kids. Anyway, And at 14, he's already said I'm the man. My mother has to learn how to tiptoe around me and steer me rather than telling me what to do because I'm a man.
 
Sheila
Yeah.
 
Keith
As opposed to, like, she's your mother, dude. Yeah, like you're 14.  Like she’s older and wiser than you. Why don't you stop for a second and think, like it's crazy.
 
Sheila
Well. And it reminds me of Emerson. I was talking about how the sin of Adam was listening to his wife.
 
Keith
Yeah exactly.
 
Sheila
Right. The sin of Adam was not listening to his wife. And it's like. It's like it’s wrong to listen to your wife and. And so, it's wrong for a lot of these men to listen to women. And so, if we want men to do something, we have to trick them into it. You know, we have to.
 
Keith
Yeah.
 
Sheila
So, let's listen to Kevin Leman. So, Kevin Leman wrote the book Sheet Music. We've talked about that a lot on this podcast, but he wrote a ton of other books. And here he's doing an interview on 100 Henley Street. A couple of years ago in his book, How to Have a New Husband By Friday.  And for those of you watching, I'm going to put a picture up on the screen. I used to be on this show not all the time, but I guested on this show, and I'll put a picture up of me on this same couch, because, yeah, I used to be on this quite a bit.  Here we go.
 
Kevin Leman
But here's the kicker: if you want your man to feel like he's needed, it's almost like you have to invent some things where you really need his help. Men love to fix things. When a woman says, here's a problem, my life. Women really don't want the man to fix it. They just want the man to understand what she's up against.  Maybe she just got little Ethan to stop drinking out of the toilet for the first time or something. But the mentality of a man is, I can fix that. Men love to fix things. So, you say to her, here's a smart woman who says to her husband, hey, honey, could I tap into your logical lockstep thinking mind for just a minute?
 
What do you think I should do about this? And then give him the problem? Let him figure it out. Let him tell you what he thinks you ought to do. It's not that you have to accept what he says or anything else or do hook, line and sinker or what he tells you to do but giving him that input.

Men feel like I'm outside. When a man gets angry and turned off. You know what? Most men don't become explosive and throw things and punch holes in walls, as some do, but most don't. You know what they do. They run silent and they run deep. They get quiet. So, women love a man who communicates. Keep in mind that you'll use two and a half times.
 
Two words, three and a half times the words that are that your husband will use in a given day. So, and keep in mind that the average marriage lasts seven years, and then you're done. That's a shame. It's a shame. So, if you want to stay married you better understand that this man is different from you.
 
He sees life differently from you. But he really knows that there's that little boy inside of him that really wants to please you. And he'll be that man that will call you from the grocery store and say, honey, I'm at the store. We need anything. He'll be the one that.
 
Keith
Oh my gosh.
 
Sheila
So yes, my big strong man. Can you open the jar for me?
 
 
Keith
Oh my gosh.
 
Sheila
So, you have to pretend you have to come up with something. If you want to build your husband up you need to manipulate him and come up with something you don't really need him to do so that he feels encouraged. Like that is treating your husband like a toddler. Like you don't need that. It's just crazy.
 
Keith
And the thing is too, is like, what's the reality of this? Because in these circles they do teach. The man is in charge. So, you come up with the problem, and the problem is obviously because of A and B therefore C.
 
Sheila
Yeah.
 
Keith
And you say to him oh sweetheart because of A and B what should we do?  And he says F
 
Sheila
Yeah
 
Keith
And you’re like no, I really want you to do C.  Like this whole thing is so you'll do C and see how smart you are right.  No we are going to do F. And she's like well what about C? Look, God's told me it's time to do F
 
Sheila
Right.
 
Keith
And this is the problem, right? Is that when you teach that you're supposed to be the man supposed to be in charge, he's saying, give him this thing and then he'll do that and you'll just smirk. But it's like, in the end, if he goes off the rails.  Yeah, you didn't do it right because you didn't ask it right, as opposed to maybe you should have just said, hey, what about C? And you did it together as a couple.
 
Sheila
Yeah. Anyway, yeah. Okay, here we go. But remember, girls, to make it work, you have to do it in a way that we guys never suspect that you are. Guy nudging the secret to nudging a young man toward becoming a poet is learning how to create the right atmosphere in which he will not feel pressured or nagged but challenged to grow.
 
Keith
I find it so amazing that this entire article is instructions to Women how to gaslight their husbands. Yeah, why a guy who is gaslighting women into accepting patriarchy?
 
Sheila
Yeah.
 
Keith
It's just this is so meta. It's unbelievable.
 
Sheila
But so, what he's saying is, if you want him to develop character, you have to do all this background manipulation and passive aggressiveness and nudging him.
 
Keith
He never knows.
 
Sheila
Yeah. Make sure that he never knows what you're actually trying to do because that will undermine his manhood. And you want him to feel like a man. And then he throws in the word nagging. 
 
Sheila
And I hate it when evangelicals use the word nagging, because there is no equivalent word for when men do something similar. And they labeled women. Asking men to do anything is nagging.  So, in Love and Respect, Emerson tells the story of Sarah Egrets repeatedly reminding him to stop leaving his wet towels on the bed. Yes, and nagging him. And the solution is, she needed to realize she was nagging him and stop it.  And then, presumably, he got to keep leaving the wet towels on the bed like there is the sin. They make the sin of asking your husband to act differently into nagging, as opposed to the problem that the husband was doing in the first place. And it's just that it really bothers me.
 
Keith
That's crazy.
 
Sheila
Okay, so here we are. We're continuing to manipulate, and, and let's keep going.  Practice thinking of creative atmospheres, in which a young man could take steps forward in the direction of becoming a poet. A great way to start is with someone like your brother. I know it does not sound very romantic, but brothers are a great training ground and extremely safe to practice on. For instance,
 
Keith
Spoken like a man who's never been, a sister of brothers.
 
Keith
Sisters of brothers out there tell me, am I right?  Perfectly safe. They won't tease you.
 
Sheila
Yes.
 
Keith
They won't. Oh my gosh
 
 
Sheila
Okay. Invite your brother on a date.
 
Keith
Oh, my gosh.
 
Sheila
Take him to a nice restaurant and in the process, gently nudge him toward treating you like a lady. So, nudge, nudge. He's using the word nudge instead of nag. But it's okay.
 
Keith
This is just bizarre, I know. Okay, like a holy, holy, metaphorically incestuous man. Would you take your brother on a date? Did your brother ask you on a date like that? Did he know what he added to this? I mean, that's kind of weird, I know.
 
Sheila
Okay?
 
Keith
I mean, I think the daddy daughter stuff is weird.
 
Sheila
This is next.
 
Keith
Yeah.
 
Sheila
Stop in front of each door. And if he does not open it for you in your most genteel voice, say, aren't you going to get the door for me? So, we're talking, as T11 says. And the well-trained wife. This is a funky baby voice. Once you hear it, you hear it everywhere. Where women are, are trained to train their voice, to go higher, and to be very childlike and airy instead of authoritative.
 
Sheila
And you'll hear it in a lot of megachurch pastor’s wives. Michelle Duggar has the classic funky baby voice. But it is something that tends to be trained, like your voice doesn't start out that way, but you learn that if I speak gently and up high, then I don't sound as scary to men. And so, I'm going to speak like this and I'm going to read from the earlier article.
 
Sheila
So, this is Warrior Poet part one. Okay. A couple things he says if they burp or do anything else in the gross family, say very sweetly something like, I've heard that burping is considered very attractive to the bearded, one eyed, yak worshiping women of Hanalei, but unfortunately, most other girls do not find it very charming. Or if they hesitate to help someone in need.
 
Keith
Because that's so wrong.
 
Sheila
Comment again very sweetly. Something akin to this job demands a man with great strength and massive biceps then look his way, and with a tilt of your head and adding a sighing lilt to your voice, say, here's the man with a bulging bicep that will surely save the day.
 
Keith
Oh my gosh, this guy I do. I don't mind all this much, but his kings.
 
Sheila
Okay, here's my question.  Can you picture saying this to Jesus?
 
Keith
Right.
 
Sheila
Can you picture a woman speaking like this to Jesus or to the disciples or to Paul? And you could argue, well, they didn't need it because they already were Warrior Poets.
 
Keith
What? She wasn't married to them.
 
Sheila
But she's not married to a brother either.
 
Keith
In this section, is it still talking about a brother?
 
Sheila
No. Oh, so it's talking about men in general? Yeah. And what's incredible is that if this truly is how biblical women are supposed to act, and this is, again, a point that I bring up in my upcoming book, Fawn. It's amazing how in the New Testament, there's an incredible lack of women acting like this to men.
 
Keith
Every single woman in the Bible is not a biblical woman according to these people. Yeah.
 
Sheila
Yeah. Okay, here we go. Ready? So, this is when she sat with her brother at the restaurant. This is back-to-back to the brother in the restaurant. When you sit down to eat sweetly, ask him to order for you. And if he's willing, do your best to be excited about his choice.
 
Keith
These guys all.
 
Sheila
We've been there. How long have we been married? 30, 35 years. I don't think you have ever ordered for me.
 
Keith
The idea would never enter my mind.
 
Sheila
Yeah.
 
Keith
That's crazy.
 
Sheila
Yeah.
 
Keith
Like, best case scenario is I actually order exactly what you would have wanted. Right. Like the chance of that happening is less than 100%.
 
Sheila
Yes.
 
Keith
To what. You just order what you want and then I know you get what you want. Yeah. It doesn't make any sense.
 
Sheila
Yeah. So, in their eyes to be a real man is to not let a woman decide for herself. Yeah. You're right. And being a real woman is to not let on that this bothers you basically. Yeah. It's to encourage this.
 
Keith
Yeah. That's very sad.
 
Sheila
Okay. Throughout the night, encourage him as a young man to inspire him as a Warrior Poet, even allow him to pay for the meal if he is willing a man enough to offer a great line to throw in somewhere during the night, right after your brother has done something admirable, is you are going to make a great has been someday.
 
If you say it sincerely, he will never forget those words. Just remember, allow the guy to take the step forward. If he feels pushed forward, he often won't budge. And be creative with how you build the right atmosphere. Creativity is a great way to cover up the fact that you are an undercover guy, not sure. I'm just blown away by this undercover guy.
 
And another thing. So, women have to be so covert and passive aggressive. Interestingly, we asked about passive aggressiveness in our survey for the marriage you want, and we found that women being passive aggressive was far more common in relationships that were complementary in where the husband was in authority.
 
Keith
Specifically taught you are not having the authority in a relationship.
 
Sheila
Yeah.
 
Keith
But you're not willing to just be a subject to do whatever your husband says. Then how do you meet your needs, man. Yeah. You got to become passive right. That's your only option. Yep.
 
Sheila
Yep. And basically, like the whole theology here of manhood is that men will not do things willingly if they think that their wife wants them to do it. So, men have to be tricked into it.
 
Keith
Does that not ever get challenged? Yeah, you don't do it. It's the other thing. Just as a side note, the best comment here. You're going to make a great husband someday. Yeah. Everything about this is all about husbands and wives. Yeah.
 
Keith
There is no biblical version of masculinity that exists outside of marriage for these people.
 
Yeah. Or femininity with them. It is only about supporting men in their leadership. Yeah, right. Like there is no I am not feminine to myself or masculine to myself and my relationship to God. This is all how the men and women interact with each other. That is focusing on earthly things rather than heavenly things. Yeah, right. And that it is all about a Western cultural view of how marriage should be and how we need to interact with men in society.
 
It has nothing to do with what God called masculinity or going, it's yes.
 
Sheila
And this whole idea that men aren't willing to do something if a woman tells them to like it.
 
Keith
That virtue.
 
Sheila
That's and that's a virtue. Yeah. So, let's listen. Let's listen to Kevin Leman again. Okay.
 
Kevin Leman
I say that ladies, listen, you got to understand. You got to track this bear to his den and understand that your husband is a creature of habit. To him, a tee shirt with just one spot is basically clean. He'll eat the same meal time and time again. And lots of times when you say to him, honey, what are you thinking about?
 
And he says nothing. Trust me, he's not thinking about anything. So, we really are different. Think of your husband as a four-year-old that shaves. If you have that basic, that basic element in mind. You're now ready to understand the truth. This is the key to what women need to understand about their husband. Your husband is like a seal.
 
He's like a seal sitting in the Pacific Ocean on a rock outside of Monterey, California. And I've been there. It's quite a sight to see that I'm rocks. And when you say something nice about your husband, especially in front of other people, you've thrown him a 3-pound fish, and he's like that seal who will snap his little flippers together.
 
If you throw him a ball, he'll bounce around his nose. He'll do anything to try to please you. And that's what I want women to understand about us. Men.
 
Sheila
So, honey, if I were to call you a four-year-old who shaves, my gosh, would I be?  Would I be, like, praising you or insulting you?
 
Keith
This is incredibly insulting.
 
Sheila
Yeah.
 
Keith
And then the cool thing.  Do it if you tell me. Oh, like, what the heck?
 
Sheila
Yeah.
 
Keith
It's just insane.
 
Sheila
Yeah.
 
Keith
This is the view of masculinity and femininity. He's stupid, but God put him in charge. Yeah. So, but he's also stubborn. So, if you tell him he's stupid and dumb, the smart thing to do, he'll say no. But because he's in charge, he's allowed to drive your car off the cliff. Yeah. So be really secret and covert.
 
And how you bring him around to doing the right thing. But he never, ever challenges an authority over you, which is God given. I'm sure God did that because.
 
Love Jesus, I love Jesus. You're the Holy Spirit, I believe spirit, let's come together. We're total equals. We're following God in our marriage. Makes sense.
 
Sheila
Yeah, I know okay back to the article. I'm sorry. Yeah. So, he's talking to this girl who's taking her brother out for a date.
 
Keith
No. She tripped her brother and asked her out.
 
Sheila
Right. Okay. Be willing to be unappreciated there.
 
Keith
Yeah, there it is. That's the mean advice.
 
Sheila
To women in the church.
 
Keith
Passive aggressive and just be passive.
 
Sheila
Yeah, plain and simple. When a young man finally takes a step forward in the Warrior Poet direction, never say I told you so. You may have played a huge role in his growth, but if he sends his and I told you so attitude, he will tend to either go backward or close you off from being a part of the process from then on to protect a man's dignity, allow him to feel that the step was holy, his.
 
If he desires to give you credit, that's great. In fact, that would show even further progress in his madness. But do not try and force him to give you the credit. Remember, you are supposed to be an undercover guy. Now you're not a front and center guy. Shove her. All right, let's listen to Kevin Leman again.
 
Kevin Leman
Try to please you. And that's what I want women to understand about us. Men. Does this man really want to please you? But when he can't be right and he can't figure things out, he shuts down.
 
Sheila
So, men have to be right. And that is how God made them. So, you have to let or he'll shut down.
 
Keith
And there's no reason why we should call men to become emotionally mature and not be like that. Because. Reasons. Yeah.
 
Sheila
I know it's okay. I'm going to keep going. Be a defender of masculinity. Just as you need young men to learn how to stand up and fight for authenticity, God designed femininity. So, we as guys, need you to stand up and fight for authentic, God designed masculinity. In a sense, we need you to be female warriors defending the awesome potential of what manhood could and should be.
 
Okay, so I just want to ask, what have we learned about manhood so far in this article, we've learned that it's incredibly fragile. Yeah, that it has to be right all the time. That if he senses that you have an opinion on how we should act, he will just shut down. And he won't do it.
 
Keith
You got to trick him into it.
 
Sheila
Yeah. We learned that men can't be who they were meant to be unless women do all this manipulating and passive aggressive stuff. Because men, left to their own devices, will stay emotionally immature and have no character. So that's what we are. That's what we've been told. Manhood is, like, crazy. Yeah.
 
Keith
Why would you want to fight for that? Yeah, I think too that he's the Warrior Poet, so he's supposed to go out there and fight the world, I guess. And she's supposed to not fight for him or their marriage in their home. He's supposed to fight for the idea of masculinity. Yeah. Which is that he goes out and fights and not her.  Yeah. Like she's supposed to fight for her right. To not fight.
 
Sheila
Right? I know it's just nuts, but this whole way this is set up is really that God made women to be these strong people who already have great characters and who already sense what good relationships are like, like God made women to know that. And I've heard this so often, right? Like women, you just instinctively know this and men don't.
 
Men need to learn it, but you just instinctively know it. And so basically, God made women as these superior beings who need to help men grow to their potential that the women already have.
 
Keith
In a sense, yes, in those terms, exactly. But that is the concept, right?
 
Sheila
Yeah.
 
Keith
And this is very Victorian England.
 
Sheila
It is the angel in the house idea.
 
Keith
It's very Western again, is it not. This is not Christian. This is Western culture.
 
Sheila
Yeah. Joanna loves reading like 19th century novels about the domestic occult and the whole idea of the angel in the house where the woman is the one who civilizes the man who's very base. And. And the man won't be civilized unless he's married, and unless he has a woman in the house to civilize him. And this is that.
 
It's not coming from the Bible. It's coming from the holdovers from Victorian literature. Okay, but here's what I really want people to get at. And this is something that I spend a lot of time talking about in my new book, is that those on the lower end of the power structure have to learn, yes, how to read other people's emotions and how to understand what's going on because they're more vulnerable.
 
Okay. And so it isn't that women were born instinctively doing this. It's that anytime you have a power structure, those at the bottom end of it learn to read the room. Yes, in much better ways. Like, you'll find that CEOs are really, really bad, at knowing what other people are thinking. They've done multiple studies on this.
 
Whereas employees lower down tend to know what their managers are thinking because they have to figure it out. You see this in racial terms, too, like, like, those like, people who are not white tend to be able to read emotions and read people's faces better than white men. Okay. And this is just this is just established in the literature.
 
And there's an interesting study. Okay. I will read you the title of the study and I'll put a link to it. So socioeconomic status shapes dyadic interactions examining behavioral and physiological responses. Okay.
 
Keith
With dyadic means is when two people are interacting. Yeah. When you have this socioeconomic difference like if I'm in if I'm socioeconomically advantaged to you. Yeah, it's an impact. The way we interact with each other.
 
Sheila
Right. And here's one, here's, one of their hypotheses. So, they studied this in a variety of different ways. In this article and their hypothesis, we propose that socioeconomic status differences and social orientation may produce interpersonal effects on social atonement. Being attentive and responsive to others during a novel social interaction in unfamiliar interactions. Low socioeconomic status, individuals may be inclined to monitor for social threats by being other focused and increasing their atonement to how interaction partners respond.
 
Conversely, high socioeconomic status individuals who are less concerned about social threats may be able to afford greater self focus and be less attuned to their interaction partners responses. Do you want to translate that for people who are listening?
 
Keith
If you're the person with the power and, you know, you've got the prestige, you got you’re the person who's in charge in this situation, right? You are, you don't worry what other people think because it doesn't impact you because they can't fire you, they can't emote you, they can't. Right. But if your boss can make your life difficult or better, depending on how you present things to them, you're going to become much better at learning whether what you're saying to them is, is what they want to hear or not.
 
Sheila
Yes. Right.
 
Keith
And so, you're going to be much better. You're like, you're going to learn how to do that. Whereas if you're above that person, you don't even develop that skill. You'll have to develop that skill.
 
Sheila
And so, here's what I'm trying to say in my new book, and here's what I want to bring out today. If this is true and it is true, the study, the study and multiple studies show this. And there's a big area of study in business literature. Right now, actually on how to teach CEOs atonement.
 
Because companies do better when CEOs are more attuned to their employees. But CEOs are notoriously bad at this. And managers in general are. And so how do we get atonement back anyway?
 
Keith
By following a crisis like, you know, that leadership is.
 
Sheila
Maybe, maybe.
 
Keith
Like, yeah.
 
Sheila
But if had been on the lower end of a power dynamic teaches you to become attuned to the people who are above you, then maybe it isn't that women were created automatically attuned, but it's instead that when women exist in church spaces where we are at the bottom end of the power structure, and when we are taught that we need to serve others, that we get better at understanding other people's behaviors, and men who are at the top and who don't have to care are notoriously bad at this.
 
And so, if we want men to become more emotionally healthy, the answer isn't to reinforce these power differences. It's to get rid of them. Right. And this is actually what the Bible says in so many places. I want to read you the verses that I'm using for my book. And sorry, I'm thinking about my book a lot because we just sent in one of our final editing passes.
 
And so, I've just been talking about these verses, but this is from Isaiah 40 verses 3 to 5 in the wilderness, prepare the way for the Lord. Make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Every valley shall be raised up, every mountain and hill made low. The rough ground shall become leveled, the rugged places a plain, and the glory of the Lord will be revealed.
 
And all people will see it together. For the mouth of the Lord has spoken. So, the glory of the Lord is revealed. When we have the things that are lofty be brought low, and the things that are low be brought high. And Mary and her song say very similar things, hearkening back to this. Right. Like this is God's will, this is the gospel.
 
Keith
This is what they said about John introducing Jesus coming. Yes, this prophecy really, but this is the point of Jesus coming.
 
Sheila
Yes. Is that the things that are highly brought low?
 
Keith
This is the life of Jesus. Paul said that, you know, even though he and very nature God are calling out God's own grasp but made himself lower. Yeah, and brought us up in the process. It's the gospel.
 
Sheila
Yes.
 
Keith
This is practically what Jesus taught to his followers. You know, you know the Gentiles lord over each other. Not so among you. Whoever wishes to be the greatest, you must be the slave of all. Yeah, right. This is the gospel. It's dismantling the garbage that's in this. This thing that this guy's writing.
 
Sheila
Yeah. Because if the problem is that men are not emotionally mature, that men are not emotionally attuned to people, that they don't have good character, the answer is not to continue to make the mountains higher and the valleys lower. The answer is to get rid of these power differentials and for men to willingly or to willingly put down the privilege that they have to lift up others who don't have that same privilege.
 
Because men in our culture and in evangelicalism have a lot of privilege right now. And it's like the Jesus model is to lay that down, like that's what he does in Philippians two, right? He doesn't consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, right. And being found in human likeness, like, like this is what Jesus did, is he gave up privilege to join us and to serve so that we could be lifted up and have a relationship with him and He.
 
And he wants men to do the same thing. And that is what the day of the Lord looks like. That is what the glory of the Lord arriving looks like, is that the mountains are brought down in, the valleys are brought up, and instead these guys keep saying, hey, we got to make the mountains higher.
 
know, you got to nudge. Don't nag. You got to be undercover nudge juice. You got to, you know, just tiptoe around everything and be passive aggressive and manipulate because you can't actually be direct. Because that would be undermining his mountain, miss, you know? And you have to stay in the valley like its craziness and it's totally against Scripture.
 
It's totally against the heart of God, you know, totally misses the whole point. Yeah. All right. Can I read part of the ending?
 
Keith
I'm just a preacher.
 
Sheila
Okay. You may have been deeply hurt by men in your life. And what I am asking of you may seem like climbing Mount Everest. Interesting mountains. There anyway. But I would like you to seriously consider it. Please do not punish manhood because of the idiocy of one or even a few. Manhood could be so much more than it is today.
 
But you hold one of the golden keys to help unlock us from our perverted and mutual prison. We are being stomped on by this culture. We are spiritually weak and our true nobility has faded. We cannot ward off the formidable powers that have aligned themselves to destroy us. Unless you put on your armor like a Joan of Arc and come to our defense, do they not hear themselves?
 
Keith
That's crazy.
 
Sheila
So, this culture is attacking men, but not women.
 
Keith
Yeah, right. Exactly.
 
Sheila
So, men are the main victims of this culture, and women are still strong. And so, women have to be Joan of Arc because men can't do it. And yet somehow men have to leap like wow. Great things are in store for our emerging generation. If you catch this vision, manhood will once again rise from the ashes of compromise and will be something worthy of your highest affections.
So, if we fully shape him, then he can lead after we've already done all the work that he has depended on us for, he can now lead. Yes.
 
Keith
And while he's leaving, you're going to covertly nudge him without ever letting him know.
 
Sheila
Okay. Here's his final thoughts.
 
We would all admit that Warrior Poets are rare these days. We, as modern men, are deluded into thinking that we are actually headed in the right direction. But burping and scratching within the city limits of jerks. Bill is not what God had in mind. That is why we desperately need you to provide us with a map that will help us reach the city of great manhood.
 
We, as men, need to set apart young women to inspire us. And so, after all of this, all they have done is solidified the mountains and valleys in Isaiah 40, right. They've made women increasingly dependent, which will make men less likely to attune and to grow. Right. And it's just reinforced the very things that have made men, jerks, failure, whatever you say.
 
And it's like what? This removes this whole philosophy of manhood and womanhood, where men actually need women to fix it. And we see it everywhere. We see every man's battle. The two big solutions to lust are women dress modestly and then transfer their sexual energies to your wife so that she has methadone for you. Right? Like women are the sin management tools for men over and over again.
 
Keith
And evangelicalism is insulting the man.
 
Sheila
It is.
 
Keith
It's just absolutely unfair.
 
Sheila
Yeah. And if this is the case, like, if men can't stand on their own two feet without women, then how is that actually empowering to anyone? What it's really doing is it's removing accountability from men, and it's removing the expectation that men can actually be good because it's telling us, well, he can't be good unless you do something.
 
You need to speak to either the king or the jester. So, if he becomes a jester, it's because you were speaking to the wrong one, right? Like he'll become what? You speak to him. Yeah.
 
Keith
That's crazy.
 
Sheila
And it's like, this is not a Christian message, but it's everywhere. And that's why we wanted to show you. It's like it's not just Eric.
 
This is emblematic of manhood throughout the evangelical church. And I hope that by going through this article, you'll see, like it's not just about Eric Luddy. That's not the point. Eric is not the point here. The point is that this is just a great example of what we will hear over and over and over again in all of these different books on what it means to be a woman and what it means to be a man, and what we can expect from men.
 
Keith
So. And what I love is that he says that the trajectory that we're on, you know, no one can save us from that except for you. Unless you become Joan of Arc and fight for masculinity.
 
Sheila
Yeah.
 
Keith
What's his victory, Ron? Okay, well, in the early 90s, when we got the right to vote. Yeah, right. Yeah. Like women, women have gotten the right to vote, the right to not be beaten, threatened to not be considered property, the right to be considered persons under the law. Yeah. Right. To have their own bank account.
 
Sheila
Yeah. Credit cards in their name.
 
Keith
Like all these women are getting more and more rights. They're not under the authority of men. They don't need to be underneath 30 men. So, what is the Christian response to that? How about why do we keep women down? So, these are our sisters in Christ. Let's go for a woolly. And if there's things that are happening as we're transitioning that are not Christlike, yes, we will call those out.
 
But the idea of women getting more power, being against Christ, how is that? That's crazy. So, what they're saying is women are getting more and more power and authority.
 
Sheila
Yeah. The valleys are being lifted up.
 
Keith
Yeah, they're for women. You need to help us get back to a previous time. Forbidden. Do they want to go?
 
Sheila
Yeah. Well, I think that's it.
 
Keith
Where women give them credit cards.
 
Sheila
No.
 
Keith
Going back to where women where you know to be beaten or didn't have the vote. I think they're showing that they want to go back to not having to vote.
 
Sheila
Well Joe, I saw a reel by Joel Webern recently. A horrible manosphere, a guy who pretends to be a Christian, a pastor and he was talking about how we need to realize that husbands own their wives and their children. Yeah.
 
Keith
So, I mean, like this is the problem. Yes. You know what our society is in transition. If we're living in a time of transition. For most of human history women were property of men.
 
Sheila
Yup.
 
Keith
Thank God that's not the case now. And it's weird that I have to say that because there is faith.
 
Sheila
A bad thing. Yup. Great.
 
Keith
But we are in a position to create a transition. And yeah, there's going to be some things that we aren't comfortable with. Well, as Christians, we should speak into those things for sure. But the answer is not to say so let's get it back to what it was before, when there was overt oppression of women.
 
Sheila
Yes. How is that?
 
Keith
Christlike is the same. And that's what he's basically advocating for. I know he's like, get back to the traditional manner where the men are in charge of women. Just shut up. Don't say anything if they're actually in charge of everything, but nobody knows it.
 
Sheila
Yeah, like I know. So, I just want to ask you, who do you think has the lower view of men? Us who are saying that men are just as capable of women as being emotionally mature, having virtue, caring for kids, being responsible, being involved.
 
Keith
They can be a full partner. It has to be in charge.
 
Sheila
Yeah. Or someone who says that men are just four-year-olds who shave.
 
Keith
And which one sounds really correct.
 
Sheila
And which one sounds more like Christ. So, thank you for joining us on the Bear Marriage Podcast. If you want to, to read more about what that kind of marriage looks like, check out our book, The Marriage You Want. It has a study guide that goes along with it with a small group, material for it. So, if you want to look at it in your small group this year, that would be awesome.
 
It has premarital questions. It's great to use for premarital counseling. If you're a pastor, start getting this book to read with your couples. We also have a simulcast coming up on October 3rd where Keith and I are going to be doing a one-day marriage conference on Saturday, and your church can be part of that.
 
It's really inexpensive. It's a great way to bring us to your church. You're going to get handouts for your church congregation, lots of perks. And check out the website. The link is in the podcast notes. There's also on Friday night, October 2nd, I'm going to be giving a sex talk for women that you can also sign up for.
 
Super fun event. And again, this is a great way to bring good, healthy, evidence-based teaching to your church to change the narrative and start this on a healthy trajectory. If you are interested in my new book, Fawn, you can actually preordered on Amazon. I haven't talked about it much, but I did see it up there. I don't know if all versions are up yet, but you can preorder.
 
I know the paperback and you can take a look at the cover, so I'll put a link in the podcast notes for that too, if you want to go preorder it. I think it's out like March 23rd or something, but that's kind of exciting. And yeah, let's do better. So, I hope that by reading through this article, you'll be able to spot some of the red flags next time too.
 
And see that. Yeah, even though they sound like they're talking about God, they're really not. And Jesus in there, let's do better. Bye.
 
Keith
Bye.