Beyond Burnout: Rediscovering Purpose in Your Leadership Journey with Dr. Christie McMullen

Ever looked around your workplace and thought, "There must be a better way"? In this transformative conversation with Dr. Christie McMullen, we uncover how joy and productivity work as essential allies rather than opposing forces.

Dr. McMullen brings her 25 years of education experience into the business world with a refreshingly simple framework that makes every workplace interaction safe, logical, fun, and memorable. She explains how psychological safety forms the foundation for everything else—when people feel truly seen and valued, they bring their best selves to work. Through her engaging personality assessment (which reveals whether you are a paperclip, magnifying glass, teddy bear, or slinky), she demonstrates how understanding your team's natural strengths fosters harmony rather than friction.

The conversation takes a decisive turn when we explore why so many workplaces feel joyless. "People quit things that aren't fun," Christie notes, whether through actual resignation or just mentally checking out. Her perspective challenges the notion that work must be endured rather than enjoyed, offering practical strategies for leaders to create environments where people genuinely want to contribute. We discuss the warning signs of quiet quitting and how self-aware leadership can prevent team burnout.

What makes this episode particularly valuable is the balance of spiritual wisdom with practical application. We explore how the biblical concept of being called to "build our own section of the wall" applies to modern workplace dynamics and how shifting from an "I have to" mindset to an "I get to" perspective transforms our relationship with work.

Whether you lead a team of two or two hundred, this conversation will equip you with actionable insights to create a workplace culture where people thrive. Ready to make your workplace interactions more intentional, engaging, and productive? This episode is your blueprint for getting started.

Want to learn more? You can purchase Dr.Christie McMullen's book, 'Make Work Fun So People Don't Quit: How To Hit Your Target In Business And Life': https://www.amazon.com/Make-Work-People-Dont-Quit/dp/B0DF5CJWNL?ref_=ast_author_dp&th=1&psc=1

Connect with Dr. Christie McMullen:
Website: aimwithus.com
Instagram: @drchristiemcmullen

Transcript

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Introduction to Dr. Christy McMullen

Speaker 1 0:03

Hey friends , welcome back to Entrusted to Lead .

Speaker 1 0:05

I'm your host , danita Cummins , and today we're diving into a conversation that's as refreshing as it is transformational . If you've ever looked around your workplace and thought , man , there has got to be more joy than this , then this episode is totally for you . I am joined by the dynamic and insightful Dr Christy McMullen bestselling author , educator turned entrepreneur and host of the Productive Joy podcast . She is on a mission to teach leaders how to make every workplace interaction safe , logical , fun and memorable . Yes , you heard that right Fun and productive . And , believe it or not , she uses stickers to prove it . We're going to unpack how joy and productivity are not enemies but essential allies . Whether you lead a business , a church , a nonprofit , we are going to unpack how joy and productivity are not enemies but essential allies . So , whether you lead a business , church or nonprofit , today's conversation is going to change your perspective , inspire fresh ideas and give you tools that you can actually use , because we love that . So grab your cup of coffee or your favorite scratch and sniff stickers and let's get started .

Speaker 1 1:13

Leadership can feel really heavy sometimes , especially when you're carrying vision and people and purpose all on your shoulders all at the same time . You have got a big mission , but the strategy feels fuzzy and your team is looking at you for clarity that you're not sure you actually have . I get it . It's hard . I'm Danita Cummins . I help faith-driven leaders like you find clarity , align with your values and lead with confidence , without burning out , because that's never okay . If you're ready to get unstuck , lead your team with courage and to turn that God-given vision into a strategy that really works . I want us to talk . Take the free leadership clarity quiz that I've created today and I want you to schedule your no-pressure coaching call because together we can uncover what's holding you back and how to move forward in faith and confidence .

From Educator to Entrepreneur

Speaker 1 2:10

Hey friends , welcome to Entrusted to Lead . I'm Danita , and today I'm super excited to be joined by my new friend , dr Christy McMullin . She is a bestselling author and 25-year educator turned entrepreneur , which we love . Super adventurous and she is here to talk about how she can help you make work fun . She's also the host of the Productive Joy podcast it's a shameless plug , so please go check it out . And we met last year , yes , when she let me come on the show very graciously to talk about my book , and so she's here today to return the favor , so we're super excited to have her join us . Christy , how are you ?

Speaker 2 2:38

today . I am so good . Thank you so much for this opportunity . I'm really looking forward to this conversation . I think we're going to have a good time , yeah .

Speaker 1 2:45

I think it'll be fun . Pun intended , right . No pun intended , that's exactly right . So do you want to tell everyone a little bit about how you got to be on this entrepreneur journey today ?

Speaker 2 2:55

Sure .

Speaker 2 2:55

So as an educator I don't know if you know any educators , but educators are really good at a whole lot of things and what happened is I shifted out of the classroom and into teaching teachers , which is the thing and what I realized is that my niche , my space , is actually teaching adults , and so for the last 19 years or so , that's exactly what I've been doing , and what I also realized is that , although I was in the education space , every business person on the planet is teaching people things all day long , but they haven't been taught how , and so they do 900 slide PowerPoints with a thousand words per page , and they talk at people instead of with people .

Speaker 2 3:34

And so I thought wonder what would happen if I took what I learned in that education space and turned it into a business thing ? And I've found that , first of all , adults love stickers and they most definitely need what I have in terms of a set of skills that can translate into any business to make every interaction safe , logical , fun and memorable . So I'm having a blast doing that with nurses and Medicare workers and mortgage brokers and real estate agents and all of everybody in between , and really having some fun .

Speaker 1 4:06

Wow , that's super cool . So in these different industries that you're a part of because you're getting to see behind the scenes of what the culture really looks like and the real no kidding kind of down in the nitty gritty details have you found kind of like a common theme of things or framework that really allows what do thriving workplaces have like in common , regardless of the sector

Traits of Thriving Workplaces

Speaker 1 4:28

?

Speaker 2 4:28

Oh , such a good question . So the thing that they have in common is that their people feel valued and appreciated . When I say that I make work fun , my definition of fun is that people feel valued and appreciated , that they have a voice and that they're allowed to use it and they're able to leverage their talents for the greater good of the organization . You can't do any of that unless you know your people . So the places that are thriving are the places where people actually belong , instead of assuming that they belong . So people know their role , they know how to execute their role and they know that those with them and above them are going to make it safe for them to make mistakes and ask questions , because if those things aren't in place , nothing else works , and that's why people quit right . Whether it's quiet quitting or real quitting , people quit things that aren't fun .

Speaker 1 5:16

Have you found , with your teaching , certain models or , I guess , tools that really help to create those things we like to say that we have those , I guess , in organizations all the time , right , as leaders , we're like , no , I create a place that's safe or whatever , but you're behind the scenes like , no , actually really it's not very good . So have you found some specific tools to help people really kind of hone in and see if they're actually creating those and then how to adjust their organizations ?

Speaker 2 5:42

Yes . So I got certified in psychological safety a couple years back and so there is a survey that you can give . That kind of peels back the onion a little of the places that it's not psychologically safe . So that's one way that I can go in and help people understand what they should be doing . Another thing that I do that is actually a ton of fun and really eye-opening is I help organizations figure out what personalities are at play . So there are so many personality tests you can do and Myers-Briggs and Berkman and Enneagram all of those that require a test and are pretty heavy . I actually do one that's pretty simple , that doesn't require a test and it's you are either a paperclip , a magnified glass , a teddy bear or a slinky , and so we talk about those four personality types and how they show up in the workplace , but then we analyze the people in the room to figure out well , okay , if I'm a paperclip , what are my superpowers and how do those show up in the workplace ? And then how can I create a diversified group so that I do also have a magnifying glass , slinky and a teddy bear near me , because if I don't , then I lose people . So those are the two tools that I typically lead with and then , after they have gotten excited about those things , we talk about creating productive joy and how you do that in the workplace , because joy is a choice and you can't manifest it . People have to choose it . So what are you doing in the workplace that creates that safe , logical , fun , memorable place where people can produce joy ?

Speaker 2 7:09

I don't have a wand . Actually , that's not true . I say this a lot . I do have a dollar store wand . Here is my wand . It doesn't hold any magical powers , but my wand , if I had one that worked , would be able to be waved over organizations and say , all right , everybody feels valued and appreciated , everybody is loved here , everybody is safe . Unfortunately , not all leaders are equipped with those talents and you can't ask people to become something they're not . But you can give them tools and teach them how to use those tools . And that's really what I'm doing is giving people tools and saying , all right , so of these four things safe , logical , fun and memorable and I can explain this if you want . But of the four , which one am I really good at and where do I need some help ? People don't necessarily need to be experts in all four , but they do need to have people around them that are , so that

Safe, Logical, Fun, and Memorable

Speaker 2 7:56

they're not getting stuck all the time .

Speaker 1 7:57

Yeah , that's really good . Do you want to explain that a little bit more ? You said safe logical fun and memorable .

Speaker 2 8:06

So this was where my research 25 years of educating humans came in , and I knew I wanted to write a book after I finished my doctorate , but wasn't a hundred percent sure what that would look like . And so my book is called Learning Can Stick , and it is how to make every interaction safe , logical , fun and memorable . Safe means not physically safe , although that's important I don't want you to trip over a chair but I also want it to be psychologically safe . So do people know that they can ask questions , that they can make mistakes , that you are not going to punish them for not knowing something ? And do you know their names ? Do you know their dog's names ? Do you know that they have kids , or that they don't want kids , or that their mom is sick or whatever it is ? Do you , first and foremost , approach people from that place of I see you , I know you and you matter . If we don't make it safe , none of the rest of it matters . You might as well just stop right .

Speaker 2 8:51

So that's first , logical means you have a plan , you stick to the plan , but you're not the only one who knows the plan . So frequently we'll call a meeting and we'll say I need you in my office in an hour and most people for that hour panic because they don't know what the meeting's about . They don't . I'm not getting hired , fired , getting a raise under punishment . What if , instead , you said I need you in my office in an hour ? It's to talk about the Smiths , because the Smiths are coming in at two and I know you are the point person on that project . Can you give me a rundown of what that is ? Now I can spend that hour , well , right . And then do you end on time , right ? So if this is supposed to last an hour , does it last an hour or does it last six ? Because I don't have six to give you , but I have one , right ? It's like that text message that we all dread . Can we talk ? Oh my gosh . Okay , first of all , how long is this going to take and what in the world do you want to talk about ? So the logical part is really thinking through giving everybody else the script to your movie instead of holding onto it too tightly . So the other part of logical , too , is recognizing that a one pager goes a long way . So if you're going to have a meeting telling people , here are the three things we're going to talk about in this meeting , instead of everything being a secret and you being the holder of all the information . That's not logical either . So helping leaders understand what all that should look like .

Speaker 2 10:07

And then fun . Fun's my favorite . I wasn't kidding , I do give scratch and sniff stickers to adults . I have been giving scratch and sniff stickers . So it started in my high school classroom . I taught all these different sciences in high school . Then , when I started teaching adults , I was like I wonder if they would like stickers too . It is unreal how much grown humans love a good sticker , and it has a lot of things . I've done a lot of research on this , to the tune of probably 10,000 stickers given , if I had to guess . So when you approach somebody and I do this at conferences and wherever I'm meeting people and I'll say , do you want peppermint or chocolate or strawberry ? And they're like what ? They get so excited and some people decide right away and other people are like thank you . And so what I've found is I can count , on one hand , the number of people who said no , thank you , because I'm giving you something for nothing , right ? It's that fun factor .

Speaker 2 11:02

Our brain only fires neurons when there's some sort of emotion tied to what we're doing . That's why we remember the tragic things and the exciting things , right ? So where were you on September 11th of 2001 ? We all know exactly what happened that day . I also know exactly what happened on June 12th of 1999 . And most people can probably say well , I brushed my teeth right , like that's about it . That's the day I got married . So these are the things that have burned into our brains .

Speaker 2 11:21

Well , if we're having a meeting where everybody needs to be involved and we don't bring the fun , unfortunately I was really excited about it , but I didn't make you excited about it . So you forgot everything and I remembered everything , and that's a problem . So how do you make it fun ? How do you make people laugh ? How do you make people feel seen and excited ? And then , last but not least , memorable . So this one , I think , is probably the most lost art , and that's that you can't be a one and done . If you say something to somebody once , you can't assume that they're going to remember it for life . We can be memorable humans , but what are you doing to intentionally be memorable ? And that's that circle back , that's that opportunity to have the conversation more than once .

Speaker 2 12:00

So I like to say you have to sprinkle , splash , flood , drip , drip , drip information . So I'm from Florida and in Florida it rains really , really hard and right before it's going to rain really really hard , there are very large drops of water that hit your windshield . Well , that's the sprinkle splash . Right , you know you should take cover . So that's the email before the meeting that says here are the three things we're going to cover in this meeting . Come with X , right ? So that's like a preview .

Speaker 2 12:26

Then the flood is the meeting , is the training , is the event where you get all the information , which sounds wonderful , except that we lose most of that information , that water in runoff , so we have to drip , drip , drip . After that , the drip , drip , drip is the follow-up email that says here are the three things we covered and here's who will do what by when . Or the phone call afterwards that says hey , we had that big meeting and I gave you a whole lot of tasks , are you feeling okay about that ? Or , a month later , circling back and saying can we check in on progress , what we tend to do is flood , flood , flood , and it just doesn't work . So that's the concept that I teach , and I teach it to sales teams when they're doing a pitch or to leadership teams when they're trying to get cohesion on something , because , ultimately , if you don't do those four things , people just shut down .

Speaker 1 13:12

That's so good . I love that and the way that you've simplified it , like you're saying where it's rooted in all of this research and all of this data , I'm sure with all of your background as an educator and , like you said , your doctorate and a book , so that's not taken lightly . But I love the fact that you're like anybody can do this . Let's just start today with where we are . I feel like we get so overwhelmed by the mountain in front of us that we don't ever start . We're like , oh , that's really big and so I'm just going to sit over here and completely just not do anything .

Speaker 1 13:40

But I love the way that you've broken it out , so that's really good . So then you go through and you say , okay , here are the four pieces . And then you sit down with everyone and you had mentioned earlier to like see which one you're good at and which one you need help with . And then do you do that , I guess , with teams , where they get to like kind of in the group , talk about it or work through it or whatever , so that they can build cohesion in the team .

Speaker 2 13:59

Yes . So one of my favorite opportunities happened with a group that had just been acquired by another group . So now we have the leaders from both groups in the room and they hadn't built systems yet . They hadn't decided which policies were going to be what . They hadn't had the opportunity because they'd only been acquired , let's say , two months before . So this was the first time they were all in the room together .

Speaker 2 14:18

We started with personalities and they learned if they were a slinky paperclip , teddy bear or a magnifying glass , and once they knew that they had a common language and they could say okay , so our magnifying glasses ? They tend to zoom in on the details , right . They're task people who get stuff done . If you have a magnifying glass , they're probably your leader . Your paperclips are very linear in how they think . They probably built the to-do list that the magnifying glass is accomplishing and they like to hold things together . They're very clear with steps . Probably have a color-coded sock drawer kind of people , right . Then we have our teddy bears . Our teddy bears are very concerned with how people feel . So when was the last time you took a break ? Oh , how's your daughter Checking in on the human side of things ? And then you have your slinkies , your slinkies are fun , right , because slinkies , your slinkies are fun , right , because slinkies are fun , but they're a little all over the place . They're the big idea people who go what if we did this thing ? And oh my gosh , but a slinky needs a paperclip in their life to actually accomplish said thing . They definitely need somebody to hold them together . So once they knew that , now in the room , they knew who should be sitting with who , oh my gosh , the accounting department has only paperclips and no magnifying glasses , like nobody's a teddy bear . So what do we do , right ? I'm not saying that accountants aren't touchy-feely , I'm just saying , stereotypically , right . So once they knew that and they knew the people in the room , then we went into safe , logical , fun and memorable and what that could mean . But it didn't stop there . So my drip , drip , drip was okay .

Speaker 2 15:50

So let me expose you to all of this and give you a task . I need you to create a meeting , a summit , whatever you're going to do with your team , and I need you to incorporate these four things into that experience . I'll be back in a month and when I come back , let's talk about how that went . So what happened is ? They tried it and when they tried it . Their other task was to talk to somebody else who had tried it and see how it went , and the conversations were rich , right ? Okay , so we need to figure out which policy we're going to use for travel with this new company . How do we do that , I don't know . Okay , well , let's create a meeting where everybody gives input , etc , etc .

Speaker 2 16:19

So when I came back the second time , they were very full of questions . They were like okay , so you said logical , but I don't know exactly what you mean by that . How can I make this more logical ? So when I work with teams , it's very catered to , right , like it's very for the needs of that particular organization in that space .

Speaker 2 16:38

But this transcends anything , right ? So you have adult children . I have adult children . When we're talking to them , if we're not safe , logical , fun and memorable , that's a problem . Our spouses ? I don't think that we were designed to not be those four things . And it's not rocket science , like you said . It's simple and that's by design . But that doesn't make it easy . So it might be easy for me to make it safe , because I'm a very personable and I make people feel comfortable , but the logical , like nobody can get in here and see what I'm thinking , and so I tend to make people feel stressed . So what do I do about that ? So that's kind of how it all comes together , especially with the group , and that drip , drip , drip makes it actually stick .

Speaker 1 17:17

Yeah , I think that's really good . That's so helpful . I was in an organization my last corporate America job before I started my entrepreneur journey and it was very much that it was a company that had merged . It was six companies basically because they had done all of these mergers and acquisitions and at the time I came in we had an office that was local here and then the headquarters , which was another company in California . So you've got two sides of the country . You have completely different teams and they were two companies that merged into one , and so the headquarters office , for example , was all in California and so all of those HR director finance they were all from company A and company B was like that's not how we do it .

Speaker 1 17:56

It was such a challenging time and there wasn't a lot of the psychological safety piece of it when just the safe part , because you're like my policy doesn't say that and they're like we'll just do the policy that here's our policy , and then you get it and you're like we don't even have those policies . This company has never done it like this before . So I think that's such a great example that you give with like just leading change in an organization which is a framework . That's what I tell people . I'm like leading changes framework . Everything has a model to it if we look at it from that perspective , and so I think it's super helpful that you're doing that .

Speaker 2 18:31

I love the example that you gave of okay . So these people all came from company A . This is how we do it . These people are from company B going no . No , that's not .

Speaker 2 18:40

Both points are valid , but there isn't a space where both points can be heard . There might be a very valid reason why you keep group A's way of work and , as humans , we will only do things if we understand why . So if you are not making that why clear , then you're just telling me this is the way we're going to do it . I'm going to buck the system every time , but if you take the time to say here's why we're doing this , this is the repercussions if we don't . This is what we've thought about . This is why we ever . What would you add ? It's a fully different situation because it is a better way . Now do I have to change and learn that change ? Yes , but you just made it something that I want to do versus something I'm told to do , and we're just not good as adult humans and I say adult loosely as humans , we're not real good with that's because I said so

Joy and Productivity as Allies

Speaker 2 19:30

that's exactly true .

Speaker 1 19:31

Yeah , there's some antibody in there already . That's just the natural pushing back on things that makes sense . So how do you respond to leaders who may feel like that joy and productivity are at odds with each other ? What do you say to that ?

Speaker 2 19:44

Good question . Sometimes I'm as blunt as saying all right , so people do quit things that aren't fun . You don't go to a movie a second time if you didn't like it the first time , and you certainly don't go back out on a date with somebody that you were just fully bored with . But you're asking people to come to work every day to a place that they hate , that they find to be miserable . That's sucking the life out of them and you expect them to show up . Well , not going to happen . So I do use a lot of the brain research around the happiness advantage as an example . There has been a ton of research done by Harvard that says that happy people are more productive people . But I don't know somewhere along the way and I don't know if it's generational or not , but somewhere along the way we said work , play . We forget that those two things can actually happen in tandem . So my plight to get productive joy to be something that everybody's thinking about is really centered around . If we don't , then we better be ready for mediocrity . You can't create great things if you are not passionately excited about the thing that you're doing . Now am I going to be passionately excited about every project I get at work ? No , but do I have people there that I can laugh with in the process ? Yes , do I have a team that I trust , that trust me , that believe in me and are letting me do the things that I'm good at ? Yes , that is fun . So , going back to my definition valued and appreciated Do I ever hear thank you ? Right , that's fun . That's productivity and joy at work . Do people say you know what ? You are so well equipped to do this thing that I'm going to let you do this thing . That's fun . It's fun to have a voice . So my least favorite thing on the planet is when you survey your team and then you do it your way anyway and you never give anybody who gave feedback any explanation as to where their feedback went . Like it went into the circular filing cabinet , aka trunk .

Speaker 2 21:33

I'm not saying take every idea that your team comes up with , because they won't all be great , but is there a space for it ? And do people know why you didn't go with their idea ? That's fun . And then it's fun when you know me well enough to know that as the slinky , I should be at the table when we're trying to come up with new ideas and as the paperclip . I should be responsible for the timeline and the project management and the spreadsheet that goes with it . And as the magnifying glass put me in charge , darn it . Like I am good at it , let me get stuff done . And then the teddy bear is , I think , the least utilized person and the most important . Does anybody feel comfortable in this space ? Has anybody checked in with the team and said I am holding up right ? All these things have changed . Are you okay , so that leveraging your talents is also fun ?

Speaker 2 22:20

Your original question was productivity and joy . How do those come together ? If they don't , you will lose your best people period . It's not so much whether or not it should , it's what will happen if it doesn't . We've all walked into jobs in one capacity or another , and let's just do it this way .

Speaker 2 22:37

If you go to Chick-fil-A , you find people who love their jobs right and are equipped to do them really well and are trained to feel good about who they are and what they're doing . It shows . If you walk into any other fast food restaurant , you get people who have not been valued nor appreciated and they're miserable . And it shows so , even if you just use that as an example . And there are other places besides Chick-fil-A , but I think they've got the corner on the market . When you walk in , do people love or hate their job ? And if they hate it , why ? And can you do anything about it , Right ? So I think about that in retail , I think about that in corporations , where you can just tell when people are cared for or not . And it doesn't mean everything's butterflies and bubbles , it's not . It's just that when it isn't , it isn't all the time . And I know that there is another side to it , that this too shall pass .

Speaker 1 23:27

I think that's really good and I appreciate the point . My husband and I were recently having the same conversation about when did work become a burden ? When did that shift ? Because we all know and from the time we're little , we need to work , and there's a biblical basis for work and there's a lot of context around the value of work , the beauty of work we are all designed for . We talked about , you know purpose and how do we bring that fruit to the world and how do we make the biggest impact ?

Speaker 1 23:52

And so where did it go upside down ? Is it authority ? Is it a pushing back on authority , Like you said ? Well , it's somebody else's business , so it's not my own . So then I have this opposition . Or is it the culture of the organizations that we see , where they're primarily focused on potentially just making money or the revenue ? The bottom line and the people to your point , their hearts , their values , the things that are really the core essence of who they are as people , are just overlooked for the sake of a dollar right , and they feel eaten up and discarded . And I think there's a lot of that that goes on under the surface , that people don't have the time or don't know how to put language around how they feel or why they feel this negativity in it . So is there anything that you can speak to , that you think on that ?

Speaker 2 24:38

I've had quite a few guests on Productive Joy talk about this topic right here . You spend 90,000 hours at work in your life . If you hate it , that is 90,000 hours wasted , right ? I think there are a couple of things at play . I think that there's the generational piece of you get a job , you stay in that job , you do that job for 50 years and then you move on . I think about my father-in-law . He was an optometrist in the same office with the same chair and the same furniture for 52 years , and he can slip right . I did this for a couple of years . I'm done because it's not . I think the shift happens when our mindset says I have to go to work instead of I get to go to work . So

Finding Purpose in Your Work

Speaker 2 25:30

I'm actually doing some coaching with Amy Kemp . She wrote a book called I See you .

Speaker 1 25:35

I do know her . She came on the podcast , oh I just adore her .

Speaker 2 25:40

I have a post-it note I'm looking at right here that says I want to , I get to , I choose to . So when you think about habits of the mind , which is what she teaches it's about , are you approaching things with the have to mentality or I must , or I owe it , or are you I want to , I get to , I choose to ? I think that's where the miss happens , when people are looking through their lens , right , and maybe it is miserable , but they're saying I have to instead of I get to . And I think that's the shift that can happen is when we shift to saying I get to instead of I have .

Speaker 1 26:13

Yeah , I think that's a very powerful , like the first piece . I totally agree with you . I do coaching and mentoring and I worked a lot with veterans or military members who were coming out of the service . So for a period of time , for a couple of years , I was mentoring and coaching them as they were getting ready to transition , to figure out , well , what do I want to do now after 20 , 30 years in the military .

Speaker 1 26:30

And it was really interesting because you start to talk about , well , what's your heart , say , these elements of your life that you've kind of compartmentalized and didn't get to really connect with . You're like I don't know , I don't know what I like Just always done this job because necessity or different things , different things they valued , which was , it's not bad . And so there's some conversations I've had too . Is , before you decide to leave this thing , you really have to get clear , I think , on why are you leaving ? Because , if not , you find yourself stuck in this pattern . You get to the next job and you're like is it the job or is there something else going on in you that you just have to maybe take the time to work through ? But it is hard because they're like I don't know , I don't know what the answer is .

Speaker 2 27:09

Well , we're not taught that in school . We're not taught , at least explicitly , to follow your heart . No , you have to go to algebra and then you go to biology and then you go to writing , like it's dictated for you , even though there's some choice with electives , overall , we are told you sit still , you've got 50 minutes . You're only good if you can be good on these standardized tests . And so we're constantly judging a fish on its ability to climb a tree . So I have twins , boy and a girl , and they could not be any more different . I told you I'm very efficient , you know . I mean one pregnancy , two kids . That's great , but they could not be more different human beings , even though they shared a womb and in school . That is where Chloe thrives . She is a kindergarten teacher now . She has her undergrad and her master's already at 24 . She loves school . That is where she feels like . She understands how things work .

Speaker 2 27:58

Jackson is quite possibly one of the most brilliant humans I've ever met in my life , but school is never where he feels safe , for whatever reason . Right , and so he is willing to work really , really hard and has had career experiences that I haven't even had . I mean , he's managed as many as 80 people , but he hasn't found his . Oh my gosh , I want to do this . Yet I listened to him and I try really hard to listen clearly on not a fish's ability to climb a tree , but you are a fish swimming in the water and what are you really good at ? Because he , unfortunately , has been taught somewhere by the world and I mean , I know what I said to him , but I also know that he didn't hear a lot of these things . But he somehow thinks well , I went this route and now I have to stay here . I'm like , dude , you are 24 years old , you do not have to stay where you are doing what you're doing . You could do anything .

Speaker 2 28:53

But going back to your military humans , your people that you were coaching , nobody's ever told them they could choose . So we do that a lot to people . I've always been a CPA . Okay . Well , what other talents do you have ? What makes you excited ? What lights you up inside ? And then how do we make that something that you do more than not ? I know that everybody doesn't have the blessing of having their passion meet their purpose , and yet I question why not ? Why can't you be passionate about what you're doing and find purpose in it ? It might not be the job itself . It might be the people that you interact with at the job . It might be the light that you get to be in that space . It might be the smile that you offer every day . But we all get to have our passion , meet our purpose if we choose to .

Speaker 1 29:37

I think that's so good and I love the perspective shift . Like you said , it's like just changing those little pieces . I remember I went and got a job at an organization and it wasn't my favorite job or the job that I really wanted it was , but it was provided right . So my faith , I was like , okay , I prayed and there was a situation , financial situation , in our family where my mom needed money . So it was one of those moments where I was praying and within a week I had a job .

Speaker 1 30:00

And so when I went to work every day , on the days where I got super grumbly , where I was like I'm not happy here , the culture the people are yelling at you know all the things I would remind myself I was like , all right , lord , we need this to get to the next step , we need money to pay for mom so she doesn't lose our house , and so we commit to do this thing . And so it was like trying to find , to your point , the joy in the moment , in the journey . I say the joy in the journey because it is hard , it can get overwhelming and consuming , and I think that is just as important . To your point , it might not be that , hey , I really love this widget that we're creating and I really love this company and I really want to be a salesperson , but it's like , okay , what can I find inside my daily life that does bring me that pieces of joy , where I can connect and not go numb ?

Speaker 2 30:44

Exactly because we can just start going through the motions and , okay , I'm here eight hours and here's what I'm going to do for those eight hours . But I know that this month you're talking about a couple different specific verses , and you're talking about a couple different specific verses . And in Galatians 6 , 9 says and let us not grow weary in doing good , for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we don't give up . I think that's exactly what you just said , right ? So I know this isn't forever and I know I'm doing this thing and this is not what fills my cup today , but what about ? It can fill my cup so that I can continue to do it until the next thing opens up .

Speaker 2 31:16

I think the addition I would make to that is am I looking to see what else is out there , or am I becoming complacent where I am ? Because I think we also get stuck because we stop looking right , we don't elevate our eyes and we stay focused head down on . This is the thing I know . When you shifted from corporate America to an entrepreneurship journey , you had to look up , you had to go oh , okay , and it's not entrepreneurship for everybody , although that is a great way that you can start to utilize your talents . But I think the difference in people who find productive joy and those who don't is that they're not looking . They got to look .

Speaker 1 31:53

So do you have some warning signs that you know or would offer for teams or for people who are starting to quiet , quit emotionally , even before they resign ? What does that look like or what are some warning signs ?

Speaker 2 32:05

In a virtual world . It's cameras

Warning Signs of Quiet Quitting

Speaker 2 32:07

off In a workspace , it's doors closed . It's people who and I'm not saying that some people don't need their door to be closed to work , that's not it at all . It's choosing not to engage . It's isolation , it's siloed work , and no work doesn't it can be a very clear sign that my interests are elsewhere . That's probably the biggest one . The other one is continuous pushback or angst .

Speaker 2 32:40

Everything that you say is met with some sort of I'm not doing that instead of huh , that might work , and I think that comes from not involving the people that are doing the work . We make these ideas on high and say , oh , everybody's going to do this now , and we don't bother to ask the people that actually have to do the this and wonder , and so I think that a lot of quiet quitting happens in that space , where people stop doing a good job at what they're doing , stop taking pride in what they're doing because they had zero voice in the process . And it can be simple things like okay , so if we lined up this room so that this part of the widget is here versus over there , it would go so much more smoothly , but instead I have to walk across the room each time to go get that thing . Can we move it ? If you say no , I'm out Like okay , I'll keep walking across the room , but I'm going to go slower every single time .

Speaker 2 33:28

So your question about how does it manifest or how does it show up ? It starts in the pullback where I used to be a full tilt . Oh my gosh , yes Me , sign me up . Sign me up Now . I'm not putting my hand up first , like I'm going to wait and I know I could do it and I know I'd be really good at it , but I'm not going to give you my talent because it's basically not appreciated .

Speaker 1 33:48

Yeah , I see that a lot . That makes a lot of sense . I can totally relate to that on different levels . I try to offer a lot of empathy on the podcast for leaders and people who are in a position where they're stewards of other people's hearts and time and talent , because it can be overwhelming . Like you're saying , some days you're just trying to get through the day , I get it , and you've got competing priorities and you've got deadlines and so you don't intentionally step over people , right , and so I think there's an empathy for that .

Speaker 1 34:13

I say that a lot . What else is going on in that person's life or in their conversations , or how much tension are they getting from their leaders when they are trying to , like , advocate for their team or get additional resources and they're not being heard and so they're holding it at both sides ? I think Middle management right when we say it's like one of the hardest positions to be in , and so do you have any , I guess , recommendations for the leaders who might feel like they're unequipped to like shift their culture and what's maybe one practical step that they can take to analyze and improve their team where they are ?

Speaker 2 34:45

I love the way you framed that . So

Leading with Empathy and Self-Awareness

Speaker 2 34:47

I think remembering that hurt people hurt people is important , and I think about our middle managers particularly where you're right . If I'm governed a certain way , I'm probably going to govern the same way , or I'm going to do the exact opposite because this is so bad or this is so good , and I don't want to be that toxic positivity person . I think the practical thing is to know yourself first , know how you show up in the workplace , know how you utilize your talents in the workplace . If I know me , then I am more open to say that's not my strength . I need to find somebody who can fill that void Versus insecurity , because insecurity is often born out of the space of feeling like you have to appear smarter than you are , or not feeling psychologically safe enough to say I don't know . When you operate out of insecurity , you tend to lash right Instead of accept , and so any sort of criticism is going to be like nope , sorry , I'm out .

Speaker 2 35:44

So I think , as our sphere of control is this little bitty hole right here , our sphere of influence is as big as our arms will go . We can only control us . We're part of that little bitty sphere . We forget that sometimes . So the simple fact is , if you don't know yourself well enough to know your needs , how can you possibly help other people figure out theirs ? So know yourself first , and if you see yourself operating out of insecurity , don't be afraid to ask questions . A giant opening of Pandora's box . You're like , oh my gosh , wait . You mean , I don't have to have all the answers and I don't have to be the only one who can do this thing , and I don't need to be the smartest person in the room . Yes , our best leaders are the ones that recognize that they shouldn't be the smartest person in the room , and if they are , they need to find another room . They need to hire new people , because if we're the only one capable , we did that to ourselves .

Speaker 1 36:48

That's exactly right . I teach and I work in like the founder space with coaching and business leaders and nonprofit leaders . So there's that founder syndrome where we're like it's mine and I have to hold on to it , but trying to get them to the place where it's like , no , you have to train somebody else . You have to get to the place where and it's hard it's super vulnerable , because then you're like but that's my identity . But if I am giving myself or giving this away , or I'm giving all of these things away , then I have no responsibility or I'm not the one who has the answer . So then it is a struggle from a vulnerability , because then you start to think , well then what is my value ?

Speaker 2 37:21

And then the enemy starts to tell us that we're not worth anything 100% accurate and I think just honestly , as women , we probably do that that much more Somewhere along the way . We were told , right , that our value and our worth was tied to something and it's not . We are worthy by ourselves , that's what God made us . But we screw that up with our minds quite frequently in saying yeah but right . Stop the yeah buts and focus more on the ands and recognize that , yeah , we actually do better when we give things away .

Speaker 2 37:52

So I run a team right now that I absolutely adore . They are amazing human beings and they all have very unique talents . And there are other teams in our organization who lead with an iron fist kind of hold on really , really tight , and I have to be the one to call the superintendents and I have to be the one and I have to be the one . I don't work that way , mostly because I at 48 , recognize that I don't have the best answers . There are spaces where I'm really really good , but there are other spaces that other people are really good , and so in letting my team go and just say , you know what , go and be shiny , the feel is fully different and I think that's what really good leaders do different , and I think that's what really good leaders do , especially like you're saying founders who ?

Speaker 2 38:32

this is my baby . I started this in a garage by myself and now I have 200 employees . How do I do that ? I think that's where a lot of self-reflection has to come in in order for us to find success in that . So I'm glad you're telling people how to do that and guiding them through that process . It's not an easy one , but gosh , is it important .

Speaker 1 38:50

Yeah , I think so too , and I think what you said about when you talked about the sprinkle , you know , shower , drip , drip , drip , like that's the other part too . Right . We talk about that continuing the culture , the message and the values and repeating it , and maybe a thousand times you may feel like you've said this a thousand times . This is who we are , this is what we're doing , but the reality is it's a . It always has to be right in front of us from a visionary leader perspective , because you do have all of these different people with different viewpoints and things that they see and they hone in on that one thing and it's really good and they see it . And so they don't see this thing over here . That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with them . We get frustrated , we're like why didn't you see XYZ ? And they're like not how I'm designed , I'm designed to see this . And so when you start to see that , I think in your organizations and your teams and your families , even with your families , you're like oh okay , this is my role , like you're saying , and this is my .

Speaker 1 39:38

I use the story of Nehemiah a lot from a leadership perspective in the biblical story . You know , we're rebuilding the wall and it's like every single person was called to stand outside their home and build their section of the wall with a sword and a shovel one hand , and they had to look out for each other . So I wasn't called to build somebody else's wall , like I wasn't called to go to Christy's house and build her wall . I'm called to build the wall that's right in front of my home and I'm equipped to do that thing . And so there is just . I think there's a lot , there's a distraction and a lot of other things going on . So I say all that to say I have great empathy and great grace for the journey .

Speaker 2 40:13

Oh yeah , well , and I believe with my whole being that there is not a soul who wakes up in the morning and says I want to be terrible at my job today . But some people aren't yet given the right tools to be great , and maybe they're not seeking them , but most of the time it's that they're not available , or they have them and they haven't practiced using them . It takes 18 times of doing something in front of others to master it , but we tend to say I tried that once in 1987 and it didn't work , so I'm never going to do it again . And the problem with that is we've missed the opportunity to get good at something , because it really does take practice . So I encourage leaders often give yourself some grace and do this with a team , because the other phrase that I love to use is you know , there is only one way to eat an elephant , and that's one bite at a time . However , it's a whole lot easier to eat with friends . So when you're thinking about eating that elephant , who on your team can take a big bite of this and who on your team can take a big bite of that ? Because together we're a whole lot better . And , like you said , if I'm building this part of the wall . I don't even see this over here , but you do , and so I'm going to trust you enough to see that part over there and look at it differently .

Speaker 2 41:20

I talk a lot about diversity of thought and having diversity of thought on your teams , and that goes back to the paperclips , linky , magnifying glass and teddy bear .

Speaker 2 41:28

If you have a team of teddy bears , you are going to love each other very well and you're not going to get anything done , right , because you don't want to step on any toes and you want to take care of people .

Speaker 2 41:38

If you have a team of magnifying glasses , you are going to get a lot of stuff done and everybody is going to be at odds and miserable with one another , right ? And if you're slinkies , you're going to get all the ideas and you might execute on one of them and you're going to be in need of a nap later . And if you are a team of paperclips , darn it if you're not going to be organized but you're not going to have that visionary piece that lets you think outside the box . So I would challenge the listeners today to think about their teams . Do you know them well enough to know who those people are on your team and if you do , are you leveraging their talents ? Or are you asking a paperclip to be a slinky , because that is a really uncomfortable place that you're putting that person in just because it's part of their job ?

Speaker 1 42:20

title . I think that's so good and we have the opportunity for most things to change right , To move things around like jobs and roles and things within the context of whatever your organization looks like . But I think that's really good . It doesn't always have to stay exactly the same . There's a better way to do it . We should totally try . So

Leveraging Team Diversity

Speaker 1 42:37

what are you working on now ? What's coming up for you ? So it's something you're super excited about that you want to share .

Speaker 2 42:42

Yeah , so I have a new company brewing called Intentionality Group , and what's so cool about Intentionality Group is it is a group of humans who have each had 20 plus years experience in their space , but we're coming together to help organizations improve their well , improve their anything and everything , but really their training , so that people can be good at their jobs .

Speaker 2 43:04

Just like we just said , if somebody is being asked to do something , we have to equip them to do it and do it well .

Speaker 2 43:08

But what we tend to do is we set them in front of a module or we put them into a training , and the training is the same for everybody and it's just not well done . We can fix that , and so we work with companies to say , first of all , where are your deficits , what's the biggest problem you're trying to solve right now , and then , how can we build systems to be able to help you solve them ? It's not that we know everything there is to know about the chemical engineering company , but we do know how to teach people things and we know how to get them to remember the things they need to know so that they don't melt their hands off because they didn't follow protocol . So it's a partnership between intentionality group and your company to intentionally look at your systems and figure out how to make them work in the best possible way for every employee , by making it safe , logical , fun and memorable . So I'm having so much fun with that .

Speaker 1 43:52

That's so good . Well , that's really good . Well , we'll put all your links in the show notes so everybody can reach out and find you . Definitely in your book , yeah , and your podcast , for sure . Again , don't forget to pop over and listen . It's really good , it's very encouraging and Christy does a great job .

Speaker 2 44:06

Well , and you can hear Danita in that . You could go listen to her episode . I don't remember what number it was , but we could put that in the show notes too . That's very true , yes we'll do that .

Speaker 1 44:13

We'll link them together . That's very true . I had a great time on your show , so thank you so much for sharing space with me .

Speaker 2 44:18

Well , I had a great time here and thank you so much for what you're doing and for continuing to help people be able to be sparkly in their space and be the best versions of themselves . I think you're doing some really great stuff . Yes , it was fun , thank you .

Speaker 1 44:32

Wow , what an incredible conversation . Dr Christy reminded us today that joy in the workplace isn't about ping pong tables or pizza parties which I love but it's about being seen , feeling safe and doing meaningful work with people who appreciate your God-given gifts . And let's be honest , as leaders it is easy to get caught up in checklists and policies and the next big thing , but I hope today's message reminds you that culture is built one interaction at a time . When we intentionally create spaces where people feel valued , then we don't have to just make work more fun , we can also make it more fruitful . So , as we wrap up , I want to leave you with this one question when in your leadership right now do people feel seen , and maybe where they might feel invisible ?

Speaker 1 45:20

Take a minute this week and ask your team or even your family , what helps them feel safe or valued and what makes them feel heard . You might be surprised by what you learn . I often do . And , as always , let's remember to lead with grace and purpose and with the kind of joy that reflects the heart of God . Thanks for joining me today . Don't forget to check out Christy's book Learning Can Stick and her Productive Joy podcast . You will definitely be glad that you did so . Until next time , remember that you're entrusted to lead

Episode Wrap-Up and Takeaways

Speaker 1 45:50

and to keep showing up every day , even when it hurts , because you matter . I'll see you later . Bye .