Episode 25: Historical nonsense, inane wittering, and whiskey drink(s) with C.N. ROWAN!

This week's episode features an interview with urban fantasy author C.N. Rowan, the magic of whiskey, and a journey with our ancestors. So find yourself a glass of single malt Scotch and come along for the ride!

Affirmation: "I carry forward the resilience and strength of my ancestors, while releasing their fear."

Sign up for the Chris's newsletter & get free books! https://cnrowan.com/

https://www.patreon.com/u103571045

https://www.instagram.com/cnrowanauthor/

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More Stuff!

Witch's Liquor Cabinet: Base Spirits (including whiskey!) Minisode: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2429206/episodes/18572000

Beltane Minisode: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2429206/episodes/19103430

Burke & Hare death/life masks: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burke_and_Hare_murders

Link to post about Ancestor Rites and Whiskey: https://zora.medium.com/heres-why-we-offer-spirits-for-the-spirits-ec1406125fbb

Tarot Deck: Murder of Crows Tarot by Corrado Roy: https://www.loscarabeo.com/products/murder-of-crows-tarot

Watch us on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@cliffhangersandcocktails

Visit our sponsor, the Paranormal Women's Fiction Bookclub, for a free monthly book at https://pwfbookclub.com/.

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Thanks - the Caftan Coven

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:10

Welcome once again to Cliffhangers and Cocktails Podcast with my co-host, Amy Sicil. Amy Sicil! And me, ShaynaCloud, both USA Today best-selling authors of paranormal women's fiction, among other things. This is brought to you as always by the Captain Covenant.

SPEAKER_03 0:32

Today we're going to be talking with author C and Rowan about his books. We'll also be talking about the usual witchy things and general shenanigans. And first, before we go any further, I want to say happy bladed beltane to everyone. And we do have a mini soda on this, so once this is over, go check that out.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

Mm-hmm.

unknown 0:52

Woo-hoo.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

And bring in some good Beltane energy. So I have an affirmation. I know you're surprised, but I do have one.

SPEAKER_03 1:02

I I have ceased to be surprised when this happens. The last time, the last episode was the last time I was surprised about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

Oh, okay. You're never going to be surprised again. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:11

Never be surprised again.

SPEAKER_00 1:12

Fine. Here we go. Here's your affirmation. Um, and as usual, I kind of themed it with what we're going to talk about today. So I carry forward the resilience and strength of my ancestors while releasing their fear.

SPEAKER_03 1:29

Nice.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

Yeah. Because, you know, something I've come to discover as I've learned more about my family, uh, my ancestors in the past. Uh there were some amazing women in my line, just strong and stubborn and resilient, and they just, you know, they they just they didn't live like, you know, big fancy lives, but they just they were just so amazing, you know, in their in what they did and and how resilient they were. And I I want to claim that for myself, but they also lived in a lot of fear and bowed to the patriarchy, you know, me and my obsession with that. Um and I want that does surprise me. So I basically want to take all of that good stuff that that my ancestors had, the the resilience and the strength and the stubborn I'm the stubbornness for in a good way that allowed them to keep moving forward even when things were hard. And I want to I want to take that, but I want to, you know, here's where I want all the generational nonsense, the trauma, the fear. I want that to end. And we've talked a lot about that uh in the past too. So, but but I thought this was just such a great one. I carry forward the resilience and strength of my ancestors while releasing their fear.

SPEAKER_03 2:55

That is really, really good. And fear can take so many different aspects in a person's life, and it's very important to recognize it some that what is what the fear is doing, because it can be, in addition to just being fearful, it can make you be um horrific. Yes, absolutely. Looking at looking at things and making sure you're letting go of what you're recognizing as fear, and also what might be a byproduct of fear that looks worse or not like fear.

SPEAKER_00 3:30

So yeah. Because the thing about fear is fear is very important to keeping us alive. Yes, but the problem is we we no longer live necessarily in a society where literally everything is out to kill you and all you have is a stabby stick. I mean, well, other than that.

SPEAKER_03 3:53

I don't remember who we interviewed that Heather.

SPEAKER_00 3:55

It was Heather, yeah. Um it was uh yeah, so it's it's a different I mean, but it's a different world. We have different things that are an issue. We we don't we're not so worried about get being eaten by a tiger or stomped on by a mammoth or whatever. Um generally speaking.

SPEAKER_03 4:19

I'm very excited to read Shay's alternate history of the world.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

In any case, yeah. Um, you know, we don't have to worry about you know dying from like diphtheria anymore. Um that is true. So it's like, is this fear serving to keep me safe, or is it gone off the rails and being ridiculous? So we want to release the fear that does not serve us.

SPEAKER_03 4:49

Well, excitingly enough, that this entire episode is gonna be very whiskey focused. Whiskey is the drink that Chris Rowan picked. Um, but when you listen to the interview, it might not seem like we talked about nothing but whiskey, but trust me, there's some stuff by stuff, I mean a lot of stuff edited out because whoa mama, was there a lot of whiskey?

SPEAKER_00 5:16

There was a lot of whiskey talk. Yes, there was a small disagreement about bourbon. Or I shouldn't say disagreement, it was more a spirited discussion.

SPEAKER_03 5:26

Spirited. Whereas Chris and I were correct. And Shay was wrong.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

Not according to my research, but we didn't.

SPEAKER_03 5:37

Um that didn't matter. We're both the vibes here.

SPEAKER_00 5:45

So factually, Shay was right, vibe-wise, totally wrong.

SPEAKER_03 5:52

When recording was so hard today.

SPEAKER_00 5:55

Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 5:56

So since we are drinking whiskey today, Sha thought it would be an amazing idea to talk about it. Because whiskey, and you you probably heard about this a little bit in our Witches Liquor Cabinet series, specifically the first episode where we talk about the base spirits. And that's linked um at the end of this episode if you want to go watch that again or listen to it again to learn more.

SPEAKER_00 6:20

Yeah, because whiskey is a base spirit for cocktails. Um, but of course, you can also drink it on its own. I'm drinking it on the rocks. You're drinking it straight, neat, neat, neat, neat, neat, neat, neat. I'm drinking mine out here. I'm drinking mine out of a mid-century drinking glass. I was out of my rocks glasses, so I thought, what can I use that's cute? This is cute. And it's very cute.

SPEAKER_03 6:46

And I'm just drinking mine out of a little whiskey glass. It's too small to be a snifter, I think. Alright, so we're gonna talk about whiskey, magic, ancestral rights, and all that cool stuff.

SPEAKER_00 6:57

All that cool stuff. So the origins of whiskey began like well, you could say 2,000 years ago when in Mesopotamia they sort of invented distilling. But the origins of whiskey itself was uh actually really you could say are about a thousand years old. So um in so all these monks, Celtic monks, uh brought the whiskey distill or brought the distilling process from which had spread throughout mainland Europe, and they brought it over to the to Ireland and Scotland specifically.

SPEAKER_03 7:37

Um and which means that the only true whiskeys are Irish and Scottish whiskies.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

Well, no, they tried that, but Vibes Okay. We won't go into reality, we'll just do vibes. So Thank you in Ireland, um, so this is why whiskey is and you know, Scotch, bourbon, other types of whiskies are all uh deeply connected to those with Scrish Scottish and Irish roots. There's just this deep connection with that kinda, you know, sort of like there's a deep connection with port to Porto. I mean, yes, other places make port-like wines, but you're shaking your head at me.

SPEAKER_03 8:29

No, because nothing can be port-like except for port.

SPEAKER_00 8:31

No, no, no, no, no. But I mean that connection. I'm talking about the connection.

SPEAKER_03 8:34

Um I know I am being pedantic and rude.

SPEAKER_00 8:39

You are, but I'm so used to it, it just goes over my head. Wow. Because I am also being snarky and rude. So in our the Irish term for whiskey is pronounced Ishka Baha. Ishka Baha. Which literally is the translation from Old Irish, from from Latin to Old Ir Irish, when the monks, the Celtic monks wanted to translate, so I Aqua Vitae, of course, as we know, water of life, is what they called distilled spirits in like the Roman Empire and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_03 9:18

And in a lot of places still today, that is a drink you can get.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

Absolutely. If you grab if yeah, it's not my bag of tea. They so they translated it because it used the same process when they were making whiskey, but they were you know, they didn't have a lot of like grapes hanging around. So they used what they had, which was grain. And in Ireland, I mean sorry, Scotland, it's Ushka Baha. Over time it was shortened and warped and morphed until we get the anglicized whiskey. So there we go.

SPEAKER_03 9:56

I like that. This is new information for me, and I really I love etymology, so this was very funny.

SPEAKER_00 10:01

Me too. Me too. And I and it makes sense. You say Ushka Whiskey. It makes sense. Um, or ishka whiskey. Um, so both Ireland and Scotland claim that they did it first, of course. Um but the first known written reference is Irish from 1405, um, where this monk writes down that this guy like basically died from drinking too much whiskey. But but it's like phrased in such a way as that he lost his head due to an over-indulgence in Ishka Ishka Ba. And which I think is kind of hilarious.

SPEAKER_03 10:46

Um not for him, but or his family. It might have been fun for him.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Uh maybe. Uh but maybe not his family.

SPEAKER_03 10:54

Maybe not his family. Personal friends.

SPEAKER_00 10:56

Probably not. But in Scotland, it's not mentioned until 1494. But either case, you know 15th century. Yeah. Either case, it had already been there for because the monks brought it between about 1000 and 1200. It was medicinal, right? So they they literally viewed it as medicine. It wasn't just out among people sipping by a fire. It was that's why water of life, yeah. Exactly yes, exactly. Because they literally believed that in addition to curing all ills, that this would prolong life if you had this whiskey. And I suppose you didn't lose your head with it. If you didn't lose your head with it, yeah. You know, it would have killed bacteria and things of that nature. And so it probably could actually extend your life just through that.

SPEAKER_03 11:48

Well, I think, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think in a lot of places, uh alcohol often was a drink that people had because it was safer than water. Yeah. So drinking things like weak beer or whiskey really can prevent, I believe, the aforementioned dysentery.

SPEAKER_00 12:12

Right. Because, you know, putting putting some, I mean, now think about it, they probably had a much stronger version actually than we have, um, initially, as far as proof goes. But they probably, if they put it in water or drink it instead of water, um, yeah, it would have been s safer to drink for sure, uh, than certain places. Uh, particularly if you lived in a a city or a town, um, I imagine. And that was mentioned in my uh research that that was yes.

SPEAKER_03 12:45

Yeah, I'm glad I wasn't wrong.

SPEAKER_00 12:46

You were not wrong. They use it as this medicine, right, this whole time, and it was very strictly rationed and very strictly uh given out as medicine. But in the sixteenth century century, you know, Henry the Eighth went and dissolved the monasteries and the monks became independent, and they were like, Oh hey, we can see an opportunity here. So they began um producing more whiskey and distributing it to the public, and it became a drink rather than just purely medicinal. Although ask any Irishman and he will still tell you that whiskey will cure all ills. He will tell you sounds legit.

SPEAKER_03 13:32

I mean I don't have any Irish folk to ask immediately, right? But I will look for one and verify that this is a fact.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

Well, Alan has a cousin in-law that is Irish, and so I am sure that I can send him. He is lives in Dublin, so he's and he's just Irish all the way, so I'm fairly certain.

SPEAKER_03 13:51

So you can you do a text exchange so we can have proof of this?

SPEAKER_00 13:56

Um I'm sure Alan could if I asked him.

SPEAKER_03 13:59

Yes, let's do this for science.

SPEAKER_00 14:01

For science. So eventually, of course, uh it made its way to the Americas, or mostly North America, you know, the US and Canada, via Scottish and Irish immigrants. Um here in the US, it eventually evolved into bourbis, which is what sparked the whole spirited debate. And but bourbon is strictly United States.

SPEAKER_03 14:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 14:31

It is No one else wants it.

SPEAKER_00 14:34

It's delicious. But it's actually our official just me that doesn't like it.

SPEAKER_03 14:41

Most people see too.

SPEAKER_00 14:42

Um it's our official distilled spirit uh of this country as of 1964, which I I did not know that. No, I did not know it either, which is so interesting. But literally, if I mean you could make bourbon outside of the US, but much like in sham, you know, you can't call it champagne unless it comes from Champagne, France, right? Correct. Um it's the same situation. You can't call it bourbon unless it comes from the United States.

SPEAKER_03 15:12

So correct.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 15:14

You could say it no longer has to be Kentucky, though. It used to be it can only be Kentucky, but that's not true.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

Kentucky, it's never actually never been true. Kentucky tried to make it.

SPEAKER_02 15:24

Oh, I thought it was.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

Okay. Yeah, Kentucky tried it. They really tried hard, but it was already being made. Well, Tennessee was just as well known. And they weren't having that. So the so it's basically they um I think there was a few places like Kentucky, Tennessee, and maybe a couple other places where it was a small area. But eventually, yes, it was anywhere in the United States that makes bourbon can call it bourbon. Um, but it has to follow very, very strict guidelines of how it's made, unlike whiskey in general, which is a little more loosey-goosey. Uh so that's why all bourbons are whiskies, not all whiskeys are bourbons, but bourbon is a very specific thing to the point where some folks do not consider it a whiskey, but technically it is.

SPEAKER_03 16:16

It is whiskey. It's just yes.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

Right. You've got it just like just like scotch is a whiskey, but not all whiskeys are scotch. You know, it's the same situation. But now for the magic. Whiskey can be used in spells to promote change, usually when change is unwanted by someone else. To me, this is a very not matriarchal, but it's a very like almost feminine vibe because you know, women get hit, like they often would have to do things a little bit underhanded. Like if they wanted something, they had to kind of work around it because if they just said I want this thing, men is like, No, no, no. But it helps bypass that interference and bring change in the way that those that oppose change do not immediately notice. And this also sounds like what's going on right now, you know? We got all kinds of nonsense happening, and we're trying to change. The thing that's really going to change things is that sort of bypassing all that nonsense and changing it underneath from the from the ground up.

SPEAKER_03 17:30

I love that you say here that whiskey was used to ward off the fee, which is what one of the reasons why it's a protection, or it's left out as offerings to appease the puka. Yes, yeah. And so I love that the fee are like, yeah, and the puka are like, yes, please.

SPEAKER_00 17:46

Gimme, gimme, gimme more. Like literally, I was reading that um these distilleries, so they would have legal distilleries in Ireland, but then they would have sort of these illegal distilleries as well, where they would make uh what they called Irish moonshine. And but it was whiskey, it was just illegal whiskey. And so they didn't want the puka coming in and f messing up everything, which is kind of what the puka do. So they would literally put out whiskey for the puka, so the puka would leave their distillery alone. So it's it's often linked to attracting or encouraging spirits in ritual work for that reason, because of that. So we're trying to attract not maybe the Puka, but we're trying to attract the spirits to help us, or attract the ancestors to help us in our ritual work. So I did a little research into ancestral rights uh and ancestral worship for some of you're in my ancestry, because you know, a lot of a lot of the and I mean I don't know a huge m amount about ancestral rights, but what I do know is usually like from Central South America or like from Hoodoo, Voodoo, that sort of thing, because we see that a lot and I read some about it. But every people had their own sort of little ancestral the way they dealt with the ancestors, whether it was through worship or through some other kind of ritual. In the Celtic Druidic tradition, which of course pertains to Irish and Scottish and whiskey, eventually, many practitioners would perform types of ancestral rites during Sawan, similar to like Day of the Dead, etc. Whiskey would not have been involved during Druidic times, but modern Druids do use it because we now have that tool and it is now connected to us and many of our ancestors. The Baltic Finnic paganism, which you've got quite a bit of Finnish, and I have a little bit of Finnish also, um, included necrolity. Necrolatry. I'm not sure if I'm saying that right.

SPEAKER_03 19:56

But necrolatry?

SPEAKER_00 19:58

That's the word, yes, worship of the dead. And it shared some features with Norse paganism, uh like sitting out, which was a where they would sit where the person was buried, sit on sit on the grave, and um they would commune with the dead for the purposes of divination. And the Sami traditional beliefs and practices, which you have uh that ancestry, I have a a little bit of that. It commonly emphasized veneration of the dead and of animal spirits. So when the missionaries were trying to convert the Sami, it really didn't go very well because the I mean, one of the predominant worldviews of the Sami is that the living and the departed were regarded as two halves of the same family. Like there wasn't really this division between oh, these people are dead and gone and we you know, and these people are alive. It was like they're both okay, yes, these are alive and these are dead, but they're both part of the family. And they would talk to and commune with the dead, departed family members just like they would almost the living family members, from what I understand from what I read. They they it was so fundamental to them that they had this living dialogue with the departed. W what the heck, let's get to witchcraft here. What the heck do ancestral rights how do they relate to the witches today? How do these ancient rights relate to us today as witches? So I believe that in removing ourselves from our ancestors, like removing ourselves from the past, we lost something important. We lost that connection to the past, we lost that connection to each other, and even to the future, because it's all connected, it's not a separate thing, it's all wibbly, wobbly, timey, whimey circle of life stuff, right? She's laughing at me. But I mean I'm not laughing at you, all connected, it's very hard. To have a future without a past, right? And we don't need to we don't need to dwell in the past, but to be connected to it, to have that that ribbon woven through the past made us who we are, and who we are is how we create the future. Now I'm getting very esoteric here.

SPEAKER_03 22:24

It was great though.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

Thank you. I think it's for whiskey. Okay, uh today's witches often honor the past through reclaiming their matriarchal power. Because most experts believe through the research of ancient peoples, they they do believe we were a matriarchal society for a very long time, or at the very least, a matrilineal society. The patriarchy pretty much tried to wipe out the matriarchy completely, although it still exists in small pockets. And that's how they study those modern matriarchies by reclaiming that matriarchal power. That's how we honor that past as well as create a better future. And just connecting to the knowledge of the past while embracing this modern world, it gives us this connection of you know not getting lost in this fast-paced, crazy society. It gives us roots to keep us rooted.

SPEAKER_03 23:29

So we are connected to those who went before us at the very deepest levels of our DNA. Yes. And science, again, yay, science has proven that we carry the trauma and wounds of our own past and the past of our ancestors and generational trauma that is both passed down via learning and via experiences, but there's also generational trauma that is passed down biologically. And it's so there's there's scars that can be left on both sides. And if you think about how I, who was not born in 1952, existed in 1952. And my daughter, who just turned 14, existed in 1976 when my mom was pregnant with me. It's it's banana crackers.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:26

It's why think about that. There's so much connection, and it should not be controversial to talk about generational trauma and that our pasts and our ancestry matters.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

I mean, there is a reason besides just patriarchy and racism, although those are two huge reasons, why generational uh poverty exists. Because poverty literally creates scars on the body and the psyche. And that is translated from generation to generation to generation. Absolutely racism, absolutely patriarchy, that plays into poverty hugely, hugely. In matriarchy, poverty does not exist in the way we think of it. Because everybody has a seat at the table, everybody is equal, everybody, all the community works together, nobody goes hungry. But in patriarchy, in capitalism, in racism, there's divides between the haves and the have-nots. And so that absolutely plays a huge role in generational poverty. But generational poverty is also a scar that carries through the generations that contributes to itself as well.

SPEAKER_03 25:51

But I think we just talked through all this negative stuff.

SPEAKER_00 25:56

I know.

SPEAKER_03 25:57

But you know what? We don't just inherit the bad stuff. It's not just generational trauma. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 26:04

I know. We inherit the good stuff too. Like I inherited my creative drive. I inherited my problem-solving ability. I created my resilience. I mean, I inherited my resilience, my ability to uh overcome difficult times and still have joy and hope. Like all of those things come through my ancestral line along with everything else. And I'm rather proud of the fact that especially the women in my line carried all those things along with whatever else they may have carried. And I, yeah, I love that. And I think it's really important to acknowledge that too. Unless you follow a specific spiritual path with specific practices for ancestral rights. I suggest creating something that resonates with you and your personal practice that uh comes from your own ancestry. Um and so, Amy, do you practice any personal ancestral rights?

SPEAKER_03 27:18

I don't have uh personal ancestral rights at this moment, but I am on a journey of discovery for what that's gonna mean for me.

SPEAKER_00 27:27

I, you know, I never really thought about ancestral rights until quite recently. Because even though I knew people, you know, people did altars at Salon and, you know, people did ants, it was just never anything that really spoke to me because I always think of my immediate ancestors and they were all very religious, and the idea of ancestral rights would have horrified them. Um and I'm like, these are not people that I mean I love them, do not get me wrong, but calling them for help uh or in in in in ritual would not be something that I would do. Um but but I realized that actually our ancestry goes back way, way, way, way, way further. A thousand years ago, uh one of our ancestors, what they were doing, and if they could see us now, like how we are, they would be like, our daughter is fat and rich, and you know, I mean, think about it. You know, I have more than one pair of clothes. I live in a house with three bedroom.

SPEAKER_03 28:35

A thing that I would like to recommend to everybody who's listening, a lot of what I have in my ancestry is it's very much, you know, book of whatever book of the Bible it is, that so-and-so begat so-and-so, and you don't have the stories. Like I can trace a line, but I don't have the stories. So if you have uh still living ancestors, still on this side of the veil, get the stories because that's so amazing. And if you are, if you don't have living ancestors, you are the one with the stories, so make sure you're writing those down and passing them on. Yes, even if you don't have your own children, there are people, nieces and nephews, or whatever, those are the people you need to be passing your stories on to. Don't let these stories disappear the way a lot of my family's stories have.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

Yeah. There are these people in my line, and I am one of these people. I am one of these. You are that person now. You're an aunt. Yeah. I'm an aunt. I love it. I love it. So um, yes, if you can't find stories, then tell your own story. And even if you can find your own uh, you know, your old story, retell them with your story. It's important both. Yes. We've talked a lot about the ancestral rights. So let's talk about using whiskey, because we're talking about whiskey in these rights. Um, so of course, as I said before, that your right should speak to you and reflect your heritage and your ancestors, unless you've been invited or inducted into a specific practice. That's that's a caveat. If you have been invited and inducted into a practice that maybe isn't your own, but you've been invited in, that is now your practice. You have been inducted. Yeah, but otherwise I would say follow your own ancestry, your own spiritual practices. Um whiskey reflects my ancestry. So that's what I would use above anything else, uh, except maybe wine. Um but here is a general right anyone can perform. And you can use whiskey, or or if there's, you know, maybe if you're from a a different you have a different background, um, maybe for French it's wine. Or if you're from Porto, it's port. Or not sure how far back. I don't either. But wine goes way far back in a lot of places. So it's wine is always safe. Uh whiskey, I give you permission. Um, so leave a shot of whiskey as an offering on your ancestral altar. That's one thing you can do. Um, I have not yet done an ancestral altar, although I'm thinking about it for this this coming up Sawin. But we'll see what I do. Um many practitioners, I did a little bit of research online where practitioners was sharing what they did. A lot of them use uh leave that whiskey on their altar as an offering for a few days. Um usually three seem to be a pretty common one, and then they pour it out on the ground with thanks to the ancestors. However, my research into whiskey and the Irish tells me that spilling whiskey on the ground was considered very bad luck. Um, so even though many modern druids do it, it feels wrong to me. Yes, Amy.

SPEAKER_03 31:59

Is it spilling though? If you're doing a deliberate pour.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

Well, I mean, there's that also. Possibly. Um it's waste to me, it's wasteful, and I feel like my ancestors would cringe at the wastefulness of it. And in fact, I know some of them would turn in their graves over wastefulness of any kind.

SPEAKER_03 32:20

Well, maybe they're turning in their graves because they're just getting upset.

SPEAKER_00 32:23

See, there's that also. But like, ooh, yeah. So modern druids might do this, but yeah, it just feels wrong. It feels wrong on so many levels.

SPEAKER_03 32:33

And again, it's the you do you boo.

SPEAKER_00 32:35

Like right, you do you boo. If you think pouring it out on the ground is the way to go, go right ahead. But instead, I prefer what some practitioners mentioned they do, and I thought this was fun. After it sat out for how many ever, whatever, they take the whiskey, they toast their ancestors, and then they drink it themselves. And I'm like, Nice! Because my ancestors would definitely smack me up the head for wasting good whiskey or anything really.

SPEAKER_03 33:04

And you do not let a ghostly smack upside the head.

SPEAKER_00 33:06

No, you really don't. You really don't. So that's what I personally would do if I were to do this. So those are just a that's just a couple of different ways you can honor your ancestors with whiskey. Amy, what's our can we talk about our cocktail of the day again? Oh yes.

SPEAKER_02 33:24

Again, I think that you're gonna be very surprised about what we will be drinking today.

SPEAKER_03 33:29

Um, but in honor of our guest, CN Rowan, we are drinking one of his favorite potions. And what he said when I asked him was single malt. Scotch. So I, because I am a professional, went to a whiskey bar, the aforementioned one here in Porto, where you should all, if you're in Porto, call me, we'll go. Um, and I tried some single malt. I'm not a big fan of scotch, but what I found was single uh pot still, which still has the word single in it. And it's Irish, which is my preference for whiskey. So here I'm gonna make this drink on camera for y'all. Because I'm fancy like it.

SPEAKER_00 34:13

Oh man, this is super fancy. I can't wait.

SPEAKER_03 34:15

I don't usually do this. I don't usually make drinks on camera during the pod, but I'm doing it now.

SPEAKER_00 34:19

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_03 34:20

Here we have my Red Rust 12. Single pot stilled Irish whiskey. And I'm okay, so the steps are pretty complicated, so follow along. You know, you can pause and rewind as needed.

SPEAKER_00 34:35

I'm gonna watch very closely. I'm gonna I'm because I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_03 34:38

Oh squeaky.

SPEAKER_00 34:39

Okay, you're opening the bottle, okay? She's opening the bottle, everyone.

SPEAKER_03 34:44

Okay. Bottle is now open. So I have my my open bottle, and now I'm gonna take my glass.

SPEAKER_00 34:53

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 34:54

Here we go. This is the complicated part.

SPEAKER_00 34:57

Okay, okay, okay. She's pouring the whiskey from the bottle into the glass.

SPEAKER_03 35:03

Okay, now this is important. The next step is very important. Okay. Put the bottle down. Replace the cap.

SPEAKER_00 35:13

So you don't spill any whiskey if you get overly excited.

SPEAKER_03 35:17

Correct. And now, here's my finished product.

SPEAKER_00 35:22

Oh, that was so fancy. Cheers! Cheers!

SPEAKER_03 35:29

Um, the ingredients for our drink today is one and a half ounces of whiskey of your choice. Or 45 mil. I poured with my heart. I don't think this is 45 mil.

SPEAKER_00 35:42

Yeah, I poured also with my heart, and I'm pretty sure I got more than 45 mil. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:47

Um, Chaya prefers bourbon. I, as I said, have my Irish whiskey. Ice is optional. You can serve it on the rocks, you can serve it meat. Some people like to add a little bit of water uh to that can release some of the aroma. There's a lot of information out in the world about how to appreciate whiskey, and I am not your resource on that because I appreciate very little whiskey. Uh this is this Irish whiskey, some Irish whiskey. That's that's all you're getting from me.

SPEAKER_00 36:20

I prefer I prefer bourbon over any other type, and I prefer if I'm gonna drink whiskey that's not bourbon, I do prefer Irish whiskey. I do not prefer scotch, it's too too peaty, smoky, whatever.

SPEAKER_03 36:36

Well, there's the highland scotch and the lowland scotch, and I think the one that's not smoothy. Smoky that's that's what smoky and peaty.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

That I made that word up for reasons.

SPEAKER_03 36:46

Smokey and pity. That one I think I like, but I I think that's lowland scotch. I think highland scotch is the one that uses peat, which obviously makes it smokier. Right. But whatever, I'm obviously not any kind of whiskey or scotch expert. We don't do that.

SPEAKER_00 37:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:04

Scotch thing.

SPEAKER_00 37:06

That's not if you go to your local whiskey bar, do do some flights, you know, maybe they have a little bit of a few. Come visit me in Porto.

SPEAKER_03 37:13

I'll go with you.

SPEAKER_00 37:14

Yeah. For science. Come to Portland, I'll go with you for science. And the magical energies are protection, cleansing, and transformation. So, shall we go have a chat with CN Rowan? See what he does. Let's do it.

SPEAKER_03 37:27

Yes, and please, I am so excited for you all to hear me do the introduction and read his bio. Because I did an amazing job.

SPEAKER_00 37:39

You really did.

SPEAKER_03 37:43

We are so excited to have CN Rowan with us today. CN Rowan came originally from Leicester, England, somehow escaping its terrible, terrible clutches. Uh, he's only joking, he's a proud Midlander, really. And he wound up ending in the South. For sake, I'm all star over.

unknown 38:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 38:04

Shall we pause again? I worked on all of my pronunciation for like the town names, and then did not like learn how to read regular words. We're so excited to welcome CN Rowan to the podcast today. CN Rowan came originally from Leicester, England, somehow escaping its terrible, terrible clutches. Only joking, he's a proud Midlander, really. He wound up living in the southwest of France for his sins. Only not for his sins, otherwise, he'd have ended up living somewhere really dreadful, like Leicester. Again, joking, he really does love Lester. He knows Lester can take a joke, unlike some of those other cities, looking at you, slow. With multiple weird strings to his bow, all of which are made of tooth floss and liable to snap if you tried to use them to do anything as adventurous as shooting an arrow, he's done all sorts of odd things, from running a hip-hop record label, including featuring himself as a rapper, to hustling disability disability living aides on the meme streets of Seisty. He's particularly proud. Listen, bios are not usually this hard for me.

SPEAKER_04 39:15

And I you know, I crafted this specifically to trip you up, Amy. It was all delivery.

SPEAKER_00 39:22

This is the best bio. Like, it's killing me. I love it.

SPEAKER_03 39:26

It's killing me more. I can't even. I'm not starting over. I'm just gonna either edit this out or make myself look ridiculous in the intro.

unknown 39:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 39:37

No. He's particularly proud of the work he's done managing and recording several French hip hop acts.

SPEAKER_00 39:49

Several.

SPEAKER_03 39:50

Several. Several? And is currently awaiting confirmation of wild rumors he might get a gold disc for a song he recorded and mixed.

SPEAKER_04 40:03

Indeed. Indeed.

SPEAKER_03 40:04

And that's the end of the episode, because that's all the words I got with me.

SPEAKER_04 40:10

Excuse me. You'll be choking over Amy.

SPEAKER_03 40:13

Oh my god. I swear I know how to read. Do you know? I tried to so much to pronounce slow and lesser that I couldn't actually read the bio.

SPEAKER_04 40:27

Well, I I appreciate all the work on the pronunciation, which was chef's kiss. Perfect. So, you know, good work.

SPEAKER_00 40:34

So I have a super important. This is the most important question that we ask all our guests. It is the most important question ever. What is your favorite beverage of choice?

SPEAKER_04 40:47

Uh, it's a very, very easy one. My favorite beverage of choice is single malt whiskey. Uh cannot go wrong with that. That's not a single malt whiskey you're gonna be there.

SPEAKER_00 40:57

It's a per we've had this argument before we start, shall we say, a spirited conversation.

SPEAKER_04 41:03

Oh, yeah, spirited, I like it.

SPEAKER_00 41:06

Whether or not bourbon is whiskey. And experts will tell you because I took a class. Granted, it was in a class put on by Americans for. This is an American class, maybe? Yeah, this is an American class. That all bourbons are whiskey, but all whiskeys are not bourbon.

SPEAKER_04 41:25

I'm I'm gonna to which my answer was all bourbons are bourbons.

SPEAKER_00 41:31

And to which I remember. And then you get it back up on this one. And I'm here to say I don't give a flying French horn. This is frickin' delicious. And it is whiskey adjacent, if nothing else.

SPEAKER_04 41:47

Whiskey adjacent, I'll accept. I'm looking at a Totori, actually. Totori, which is a which actually has been aged in a bourbon barrel. So this is a Japanese blended whiskey. Oh, that's awesome. Really big fan of Japanese whiskey, I think. Um but I think the Japanese have really nailed it. Um my favourite, actually, and I kind of on an easy tip or is probably the Nicker coffee grain, which is done through a coffee grain, an old coffee grain still that they imported. And it is just so smooth. I cannot recommend it highly.

SPEAKER_00 42:22

I've been wanting to try Japanese whiskey. They have well, Amy's been doing some Japanese gin as well.

SPEAKER_03 42:28

Oh the Roku, uh gin is gin is my liquor of choice. Um, so it's not prepared for this um interview. I went to a whiskey bar um and I said, Bar keep, pour me your finest single malts um that you better five.

SPEAKER_01 42:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 42:51

And so I I tried some whiskeys the other night, and I didn't end up bringing home a bottle of single malt. But it's a single pot still. And so that's just a that's a single something.

SPEAKER_04 43:03

Single pot, is it red breast?

SPEAKER_03 43:05

Yes, it is. Uh huh.

SPEAKER_04 43:07

That's what I'm bringing. Redbreast 15.

SPEAKER_00 43:10

See, mine my bourbon was aged in not just bourbon barrels, but sherry barrels as well.

SPEAKER_04 43:16

Oh, it's like a sherry barrel for for aging whiskey as well. I think it gives it a nice taste.

SPEAKER_00 43:22

It does. It gives it that nice sort of vanilla cherry thing.

SPEAKER_04 43:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:27

The two first single malts that I tasted were both aged in port barrels. No, one was aged in a port barrel, and one was aged in a red wine barrel from the Duero. So I'm like, oh, these are both like almost Portuguese. Then I tried the red breast, and I was like, you know, actually, this is what I'm taking home. So tell us a little bit about your author journey. When did you begin writing?

SPEAKER_04 43:47

Uh so I started writing in 2022. Um, so 2021 I'd released an album, which had kind of been my return to doing music myself rather than um, you know, kind of pr promoting other people and And artist development and stuff. Um, and I'd written that during lockdown, I'd released it, and I was like, right, what am I gonna do this year? I was like, well, I really want to keep with that kind of creative vibe going. I thought I'm gonna write a book, that's my target for this year. And sort of by the end of that year, I'd written five, and it was just like you know, it just it just it just went from there, which was the the Imperfect Cathar series. Um thank you very much. I'm so so glad. It's uh you know, I'm very, very proud of that, and you know, as with anything, you look back on these things, and there's always things you'd improve with with first books and stuff. Uh, but it is a series I'm immensely proud of, and it's very much the story that I wanted to tell. Uh, you know, kind of having the opportunity to mix in the French mythology and history and those things that I found fascinating that were were a subject of interest to me at that moment, uh, and you know, mixing it into that very snarky modern day environment. Um, but I released those. Um, I at the same time I had some medical issues, so I sort of had to come off work for a while, which allowed me to concentrate on that. Um, I recorded my own audiobooks as well for that series. Um released all that um uh on the uh self-publishing, um, cracked straight into sort of my writing my next series, uh, which is uh The Broken Hotel for Magical Misfits, and um and whilst that was happening, uh ended up negotiating and getting signed by Vinci Books, um, who who are then uh they are re-releasing the Cathar books. In fact, they're coming out in six days, in six days on the trade paperbacks, which is really exciting. Uh oh in fact, I got them, I got them the other day on top of it. Oh that's nice shiny covers. That's come out really nice. Um and uh and they released the um the the uh Broken Hotel series, um and it because they do it slightly differently to kind of most traditional publishers, so they released it like an indie um on the print on demand and the ebook, and then they have the press, the the trade paperback that then follows afterwards. So the trade paperbacks for the uh Broken Hotel series are coming out in May, and we've got the audiobooks coming this year. Um so yeah, I mean I say I started writing in 2022. I think I god when did I release? I released the first book in 2023, and here we are, and I'm just kind of halfway through writing my 20th book now.

SPEAKER_03 46:34

Wow, that's so banana crack. That is wild, that's amazing.

SPEAKER_04 46:38

Bananas, it's insane. Uh, it's been so so busy. Um, this year we've got I've got a trilogy coming out with an amazing author called Krista Walsh. I don't know if you know Krista, um she's great, really great. Um it might be under her and she's because she's writing romancy now as well, so she might kind of divide off her kind of high fantasy and her urban fantasy romancy stuff. So it might come out under Chaos Walsh as the right as a pen name, but she's just working out how she's dividing that. But that's a high fantasy spin-off from the Imperfect Cathar series. Um trilogy.

SPEAKER_03 47:10

So cool.

SPEAKER_04 47:11

Yeah, uh, because I'm really excited about, and then I'll also hopefully end of this year, start next year, will be my next series, which is uh the Roanoke Lost Soul Rehabilitation Society.

SPEAKER_03 47:25

Okay, I love it. I don't even know anything about that yet, and I'm already into it because it's such a great that is a great that is a great title.

SPEAKER_00 47:34

I love it. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_03 47:37

I really feel like I need to up my series title game because the last two people we've interviewed have done extraordinarily well.

SPEAKER_00 47:45

So this the series we're talking about today, I started the book and I'm like immediately hooked. And I really like the main character. I love her. And so I'm and for some reason I got it in my head that that was the series we're talking about today, and I don't know if that's the case.

SPEAKER_04 48:05

Sorry, you asked me about my multi journey, and I'm immediately wrong of telling you about everything I've ever done and everything I ever will do.

SPEAKER_00 48:11

That's cool. That's what that question is all about. We want to know that.

SPEAKER_04 48:14

Oh, I think of course, I think I mentioned the fact that I won quite a lot of awards as well. I should probably plan on promoting myself. My books won lots of awards. That was great, wonderfully, wonderfully perfectly fantastic. Lots of awards. That's fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 48:27

It's really, it's I mean, that we do that a lot, I think, as authors. We kind of downplay, like, you know, oh yeah, this one did well. Like, people, why don't you have USA Today best-selling author by your name everywhere you go? And I'm like, because that just seems I don't know why. I won lots of awards. You should tell everybody that.

SPEAKER_04 48:54

I probably should. Sorry. So there you are. Hello, everybody. I won lots of awards. Yeah, I think we are talking about a broken hotel. Um magical misfits series. Uh, thinking about kind of cliffhangers and cocktails, you know, it felt like it fit in. It felt like it fits rather well, yes. Into the theme, and that was my thought process uh on the whole thing.

SPEAKER_00 49:16

So, yes, so tell us more uh you know more about that. Broken hotel for magical misfits. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 49:24

Uh it came actually, it came from a very, very simple idea. Uh uh one line hooked into my brain as I was um as I was finishing uh the Cathar series, and in fact, I mentioned it to my good friend Heather G. Harris, and she basically said to me, Chris, drop everything and write this immediately. Uh okay. Uh and she the the line I had was the faraway tree for adults. And that was where I came from. So I had this idea because I again I loved um you know deeply problematic, though Eanie Blighton clearly is, you know, uh, you know, looking back from now, and I don't buy the whole kind of it was a different era thing, we people should be judged, and people should be judged. But um, but you know, taking those books out of that, I had read them to my kids, I'd read them as a kid. But my kids had a period where they they just loved those books so much that's all they played is their imaginary games when they were about three and four, three and five, or two and four, three and five. And they actually had a period where they sort of were talking like 1930s urchins uh for quite a long period because they were all like Jolly Good, let's go off on another spiffing adventure, you know, and like constantly flowed like characters from from the magic fireway tree, uh, which was hilarious. Um, but but I I had this idea and I was like, look, you know, what a brilliant idea that is, you know, this adventure where you've got this kind of this ensemble cast of these kind of these quite bizarre but funny kind of characters, um, all based around this idea that they go and visit other worlds, but that then there's something wrong, it's broken. They can't, they've no real control over what happens, and actually they can get trapped in other worlds and it and they don't know which world they're going to go into, or they think they're going to go into this one and it's a different one. And I was like, that's such a fun kind of setup as an idea for a story. As I, you know, you you could run with something great from that, and so I had this idea of this this broken hotel for magical misfits. So effectively, um our our heroine Briar Hawthorne, um, who has been an orphan um from the age of 14, we've kind of passed around foster homes, survived through reading, as so many of us do. Um and then um at 17 she she receives an inheritance from her mother, an amulet, uh, which you can read all about that in the the free prequel novella, which you can get in in exchange for signing up for my newsletter. Look at me doing self-promotion. Thank you for it. Thank you. I thank you. Um, and um and uh she hawks this uh and uses it to effectively set up a bookstore. Umly she's quite prickly and introverted and basically not very good at business, and just doesn't she wants to have all the books, she just doesn't want to have other people come and buy them or have to talk to other people or anything, you know. So so so you know the business is floundering. Um and um and and uh someone sort of uh without going too much in and without spoilers, a loan is is provided, and at the same time as this happens, she inherits from her unknown grandmother um a mansion in in the southwest of London, um which turns out to be this hotel full of magical misfits. Uh and so I wanted to have this sort of idea of kind of all of these creatures who who have these strange abilities or who have these slightly ridiculous kind of issues. So you've said you know the first book is called Um A Hidden Witch's Spell for Making a Tiny Giant Mighty. So they've got a character in it, and he's introduced, and he's Jack the Giant. Uh, and she's like, Do you mean Jack the Giant? Killer who's like, No, Jack the Giant, I'm Jack the Giant. Where I'm from, I'm massive, and he's tiny, like about he's like about you know two foot tall. Uh where he's from, he's a giant, you know, because all the other people are like like one foot tall, you know. Um, so he's a tiny giant. Uh uh, you know, you've got you've got um uh there's a there's uh Martin who's a werewolf, uh but he's a werewolf with alopecia. So when he transforms into his werewolf form, he looks like a naked mole rat. But he's also he's also unfortunately he's also he's also um he's also a nudist. So he's like, Oh, why are you walking around? Why are we naked? He's like, Well, I actually nudist as well, do you know what I mean? So he's a he's a nudist naked mole rat werewolf, anyway. But he's that kind of thing, you know. So so I wanted this kind of quite kooky kind of ensemble of characters, uh and that was the sort of that was the setup. Uh and then mixing it in with all the sort of stuff that that makes my sort of singer stuff uh with with the strange little bits of history thrown in there as well. So um there's there's um the the the portal is controlled, the portal in the attic, which is how they travel to worlds, which is broken because one of the two masks is missing that allows it to travel, uh, which are actually based on the life and death mask of Burke and Hare, um, which is true things that happened. So life each of them, uh so so I'm gonna get this the wrong way around. Yeah, Burke had a mask made of his face, a death mask, i.e., after he was died, after he was executed, they made a mask, uh like a plastic, a plaster bust, uh, that was a cast of it, whereas Hare's was made while he was still alive. So I liked that kind of I liked that yin and yang of these two kind of infamous grave robber murderers, the the the the the life and death, and that that was where that came from. So still working in a few of those kind of little oddities that that that amuse me.

SPEAKER_00 54:52

I love that kind of thing, those little easter eggs like that.

SPEAKER_04 54:56

That's very much a cathar thing, but I had to work it in still.

SPEAKER_03 55:00

I'm very like I um abandoned your first series to read this book, not because I was abandoning it for saying.

SPEAKER_04 55:09

I abandoned your first series because it was rubbish.

SPEAKER_03 55:15

No. If that was how I felt, I wouldn't have said it out loud.

SPEAKER_04 55:20

No, I'm teasing, teasing, sorry.

SPEAKER_03 55:22

Um, yes. So I'm very much enjoying getting into this um Broken Hotel series. And so tell me a little bit more, a little bit more about your main character and kind of like she is kind of a mess.

SPEAKER_01 55:38

She is.

SPEAKER_04 55:39

She is.

SPEAKER_03 55:39

And so tell me a little bit more about Rai, right?

SPEAKER_04 55:42

I mean, you know, it's an interesting one, isn't it? Because there's two kind of ways I think you can go with characters, right? One is that you write characters who are fundamentally kind of they've really got am I allowed to swear, by the way, I don't know what the what the thing is. So you either they've fundamentally got their shit together, right? Or they really, really haven't. Um I I and you know, I always prefer the journey of watching people perhaps come to terms with some of their issues or their their their their character flaws, if you like, you know. So it's interesting because I you know you've got to find that balance because you they've got to be still likable, right? Um you know, because otherwise if you make them too prickly, you know, then then people are just like this this is this is just an unpleasant person. Right. You've got to find that balance, but you know, in in much the same way as you know the the Cathar series, the whole thing with Paul, I mean, and Paul is very much you know, there's a lot of me in Paul Barnum from the first series, clearly, you know, as I think we probably all do in the first story, so you're right. Um, but the whole thing with Paul was it that goes through it is how do you believe yourself to be good when you don't believe it? How do you recognise the goodness in yourself when you don't believe yourself to be a good person? You know? And that's why the whole kind of Paul Bonhomme and Bonhomme means good man, good man was also the name for the perfect, the priests, uh the the the the the the Cathars, the good men and the good Christians, so all linked in, but it's that's the overriding theme that kind of rides through that. Whereas um Briar's journey is much more about this idea of you know being rejected, about not really wanting anything to do with people, and even when she has people that she likes or that she trusts to a degree, she still keeps them at arm's length. You know, this is a woman who you know um she's she spent the first years of her life constantly travelling, her mum running her around from place to place, never settled, the whole world being her and her mum. Her mum dies, she's thrown into kind of foster care by people, you know, who aren't she's not it's not an abusive environment in the sense of you know what could be, but it's an environment that's lacking love and lacking nurturing. And then at the age of 17, she gets this inheritance that her mum had, and she's like, Well, what is this? This huge secret, this massively valuable amulet that could have allowed us a better quality of life, that could have allowed us to do all these things that could have meant you didn't die, mum, you know, if we'd done something else. And so there we are, with several years later, and she's dealing with all of this, she's carrying all of this, you know, and and so her response has been to lock down and block out, you know, and and to to to pull away, but she's still a good person, and she is at her heart. Um, and so there's a whole thing uh in the second chapter where um she catches a kid shoplifting, and the kid's shoplifting. Oh, I love that part thing, yeah, yeah. Uh and it's the whole thing of the shoplifting Frankenstein, and she's like, This is a this is a rubbish book to choose to shoplift. Like, there's so many toppers in there out there, yeah. You're gonna get nothing for this, you know, in the sec, you know, in in in the in the second hand chart. And the kid's like, no, no, like we read a bit in class, and I want I just want to know, I've got to know what happened, I've got to know what happened to the monster. Do you know what I mean? And it's like, and she she there's that connection, and she basically just goes, Look, just take it, but come back and tell me what you think of it, sort of thing. And she lets the kid go, you know, and that that's that's the level of connection she's capable of at that time. Like, she can't manage more than that, but you know, it's also who she is at her heart. She's just she's she's deeply wounded, and you know, and all of that scar tissue has formed to to to be this huge barrier against anyone and everyone. From that, we have this adventure, the adventures that she goes on, and the time that passes, we and you know, uh a slow burn romance that she builds. But really, it's all about the family, it's about the family that she finds at the Broken Hotel, it's about the connections that she builds that allows her to once more have faith in the concept of love. And I'm not always talking in the sense of a romantic love, and again, you know, this is something that's incredibly important to me, and you know, this was the first time I'd done anything with romance, and because the Cathar series is very, very, very deliberately with no romance at all, uh, but with a male and female main characters who are best friends, because I wanted to write that. My you know, three of my four best friends are female, you know, and I wanted to write that kind of platonic but deep friendship, you know. And that that sort of that stuff matters to me now I write. And so equally, you know, the I I don't think I can ever imagine me writing a book that doesn't involve that sense of family, because it's just fundamental to that. Because I really believe that it's only through our connections with other people that we can, you know, grow and improve and be better. I think the moment we do pull ourselves too far away from that human connection, uh we are lost, really. We become less and we we we will we will wither like a planet that is removed from the sun, you know?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:17

Yeah, totally. I think we uh we also have a lot of found family in our books as well. Like it's so fundamentally important to uh us as human beings to have connections with each other. This is a fun question. What's the most interesting or unusual research you've done for a book or a series?

SPEAKER_04 1:01:44

Okay, that that that that easily hands down. It's gotta be the Cathar. So the Cathar series, until I my feet went and I was basically handicapped for a couple of years, I could have hardly walled. Um but hurrah, that's gone. Fantastic. But um prior to that, um, I was kind of I was kind of travelling all over the sort of southwest of France doing the research for for for the Cathar books. Um so I went to Astang. So those who've read it, you've you said uh Amy, you've read some at least of of the Cathar series. Yeah, so you've met Lou, Lou Carcoyle, who is a who is a real real mythological creature that is real, that is a real legend, and he really does is supposed to live under the town of Astang. So I've driven down to Astang to have a look at this incredible little medieval village. Um and I was sort of planning out where things were happening for this first book, and I'd had this idea, I wanted to go and look at this bridge. Um, that I had an idea that this was going to be sort of a showdown point or a meeting point between the kind of the main characters and the villain um later on. So I drove down to have a look at this bridge, particularly because on my first draft of the book, it was very, very Tolkien describes trees. Um, you know, like it was really was it was like um someone told me it was like uh they said it was like a cross between Jim Butcher and Umberto Echo. Uh and it took me a long time to realise that wasn't a good thing. You know, there was an awful lot of like five pages of them walking through Toulouse and all the things they observed if they were walking through Toulouse, you know, like awful lot of this. Um my editor thankfully helped me sort out because she's amazing. Um, but but like it was like it was a lot of that. Um so there was a lot of I must see these places because now I can spend seven pages describing this this this bridge from the 14th century. Um you know, um but uh so as I've gone down there and I I I'm driving down and I see a sign saying Simitia Israelit. Okay, so I'm like, what? That sounds amazing. So on the way back, I I pull over and there's kind of the sunset and there's this old ruined castle in the background, right? And then there's this this this this just this hillside, and I go up into this hillside, and there's all these these these um these these slabs, you know, like the ones you would kind of put on top of a sarcophagus or something, you know? And and they're all kind of inscribed, they've got they're inscribed in um in Hebraic, and they've got um, you know, very similar, and some of it's in English, and they're from the the 16th century. Um so I started doing some research, and funnily enough, the the the the people I stayed with in the Airbnb, the guy was a history teacher, so you know I'm like, tell me about these 16th, these 15th, 16th century gravestones I found. And he's like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, this was all from the Spanish pogrom because the southwest, this this sort of area of the south of France, the southwest of France, had always been very, very inclusive and welcoming, and you know, this was part of why there was the Cathar um uh um uh crusade. You know, part of why it was so outrageous was because you know, there in the 12th century Jewish people were allowed to own land, they were allowed to be part of the local governments, you know. The church didn't like that very much. Um so so so you know, this was part of it, although not the whole thing. Anyway, so he's like, Oh, if you like that one, you should go and have a look at another one. Go over here, it's this town, you know, it's about 40 minutes drive away. I'll go and have a look on my way out. So I'd go and have a look. Not quite as nice, but it's interesting because it's right next to literally the there's like a thin path separating it from the main church's um graveyard. I was like, wow, so it shows how integrated they were, just this tiny little path, you know, where they were really accepted into the community. I'm like, I'll just have a quick look at the church, you know, before I get going. Really impressive, very gothic, you know, very ancient, sort of from the 12th, 13th century originally, and then and then built on. And I find this door, and it's it's called a cago door. And I'm like, I'm sorry, what? A cago door. And they said this is where the cago came to receive communion because they weren't allowed into the church. And I'm like, I'm sorry, what? Who are the Kago? You know, so I'm sending emails at this time, sort of sending texts out to sort of my brother's a massive kind of history buffer, my dad as well. And like, I'm sending people, and they're like, I've never heard of the cago, who are they? So I started doing some research. And it turns out the Cago were an actual people who were effectively a whole outcast caste in Europe, particularly along the Basque coast, so up along the kind of the top north of Spain, up into the coast of France, all the way up as high as Bordeaux. Hundreds of thousands of millions of people. They weren't allowed in churches. They were fed communion on sticks through the door. They weren't allowed on consecrated ground. They had to be baptized outside at midnight. They weren't allowed to be done in the day. They weren't allowed to work with metal. They were banned from working with metal. There was a couple of other things like that as well. A lot of them ended up being foresters or bakers. And they were completely ostracized from society. From the earliest records is about the year 1000. The last record of them is between the first and second world war. And up to as long as the first world war, they were outcasts from society. And basically, forced, I mean, you know, quite a lot of signs of inbreeding because they were kind of forced to stay in their communities and stuff. And nobody knows why. Nobody. Still now, nobody knows. A lot of time they people thought that they were um that they were related to the Cathars, but actually they predate the Cathar heresy, there's no question of that. And in fact, they used that in about the 14th century, 15th century, Leo X, they went and petitioned him on the grounds of being the uh the offspring of Cathars, because um the rule of heresy only applies to three generations, so they claim to be Cathars to try and expunge this mark of you know of being outcasts so they could be reintroduced back into society, and the Pope said no, and nobody knows why. A whole group of people that were outcast for a thousand years, that were treated as a completely separate caste, that that that you know uh and were a major part across you know across France and Spain. Nobody knows about them, nobody talks about them, and nobody knows why. And I think that is one of the most fascinating mysteries I've ever come across.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:20

That is wild. I mean, I love a good histori history mystery. I've never heard this before.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:27

This is amazing.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:28

This is amazing. This is wild.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:31

Like I built in that diving down a thousand rabbit holes in my brain right now.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:36

So I mean that all then becomes a quite a major plot, kind of as you go into the second book of the Cathar series, the Kaggos become a major kind of storyline uh of sort of things that have happened to Paul and the absolute misery that his life has been. Um but uh over 800 years. But uh, but um, but but yeah, and I had to bring that in because of course once I came across those, and I come up with my own reason uh for why the cago have been have been kind of treated the way that they are, uh and it's it was great fun to do that, but yeah, crazy, crazy fascinating thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:10

That is super wild. That is that I think that wins the research, the cr the wild research uh award. Number one that I just made up right now, and I will now award it to people whose research is the best.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:25

I will treasure it. I will treasure it for the rest of my life. Every now and then when I go onto a podcast, about 15 minutes in, I'll go, oh, and I won an award for the best research, and then we'll carry a book about something else.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:37

You have to add that to your accolades that you're gonna definitely mention. Definitely used to be in the bio.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:43

And it should, I need to have a like a really, really wild name that she can't pronounce.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:48

Fantastic, yeah. The Love Bruh. The Love Bruh, the Little Baruga, the Little Burger World. The Little Baruga award.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:55

There you go. I think she's not talking to us anymore. She's used to me being slightly evil, so it's fine. But only slightly evil.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:15

So that, like, I at this point I'm like, I don't even know where to go with this because now I just want to talk about that and whiskey. Um, if we're talking about Broken Hotel, and we're kind of going back to that. Yeah, we're going back to that now.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:32

We're not actually supposed to be talking about, sorry.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:35

You don't have to, but I mean I do have more questions. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:39

That's true.

unknown 1:10:39

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:40

Um, so how many books are you planning in the series?

SPEAKER_04 1:10:43

The series is complete. It's a four book.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:45

It's complete now. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:47

It's complete. There's always space for more, isn't there? There's always space. These characters aren't necessarily done. Um there is a spin-off planned. I've just got to find time in my brain to write it because I've got about 50 books that are screaming at me to be written. Um and and the uh the Roanoke Lost Soul Rehabilitation Society is set in the same reality. It's not necessarily, you know, but there might be, there might be a character or two who turn up at some point in the series uh from today hip hop across. Um possibly. Um but uh yeah, it's a four-book series. I wanted to write something that was um more complete immediately. Do you know what I mean? Because I've written this sort of this nine book sprawling series um with Cathar, and I just was like, I want to write something that's more concise and compact and uh and precise, and that's what I did. Um which you know left a lot of people clamouring for more, and a lot of people like I really wish you did more than four, and I understand that, but it was that thing of I really wanna I wanna I wanna pull this together in a specific a specific length, and this is gonna be the story that's told. And so it was. And this is at least the first story of the broken hotel is not told. Doesn't mean there's no more to be told, but that's the first the first story told.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:11

So now if okay Netflix called, they're picking up the hot the the Broken Hotel for a series. Who do you want to play your main character?

SPEAKER_04 1:12:23

Oh man.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:25

Oh damn, I uh oh, we cut him out with that one.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:30

Really? Yeah, that called me out. I wasn't expecting that. Who would I want to have play? Um you see, she needs to be played a bit like the the the lass from Pluribus, but obviously she's a bit old because because uh because um because because Briar's in her early 20s, uh which I love in sadly. Uh is it Carol Stucker, the actress? Yeah, and she's in her she's in her early 40s, early 20s.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:58

I mean, we do have a time machine here.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:00

I mean we got we've got time machines. So early, early Carol Stucker, I think is the end.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:05

I love I loved her in Plurus, she's so good.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:09

So good, so so good. Um, so she would play it very, very well because there's a there's you know, there's definitely certainly the star, there's a lot of that kind of character in uh in uh in uh in in um Briar. Um Zendiah for her best mate, Tish. Silas the vampire then. Who are you gonna get to play Silas? I'm not good on male leads anymore. I'm all out of date now. I'm out of date.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:41

But that's okay because you know, we get the out-of-date references, or at least I do. Yeah, I mean Amy is much younger than me, obviously, but yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:55

I don't know. It's a funny one, isn't it? It's a funny one. I always kind of like I like leaving that open as well. I quite like leaving that to the fans to do that. So, for example, again, going back to Gaff because we have done this conversation, but people like people saying Remy Malik for for Paul, um, which I wouldn't have thought of, but yeah, I can see it. So I quite like leaving that open. So it's my bad. I should have I should have asked my my my my the imps, my readers, um, if they had some ideas beforehand. Yeah. So I shall report back to you on that one. Excellent. Yeah, I love it. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:25

See, that will give you great fodder for your next newsletter or whatever.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:30

I like it. I like it. I'm gonna feed that one. The imp are very, very active. My Facebook group is super involved. So I'm gonna throw that question out to them and and see what they think. Because that'll be super interesting to see. Yeah, I'm gonna get another whiskey. I'm gonna have a small extra whiskey.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:43

I'm really sad I didn't bring the bottle in here with me, honestly. Um and I don't have a butler.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:50

I have a husband. Since it's only yeah, you see you have built-in butler like I do, but I um being as this is only 1 pm, I think I'll just stick with the stick with the one.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:06

As as Douglas Adams said famously in uh in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, time is an illusion.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:14

Lunchtime doubly so that means all the whiskey that I drink is an illusion.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:18

I can drink time. Exactly. Well, all the all the daydream uh daydreaming. Daydreaming is certainly a construction of the mind. Day drinking is simply a construction of the mind. Uh, you know, so so so therefore you're fully justified in in doing what you want to do.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:32

Fine, I do what I want.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:36

And you know, how often do you daydrink? Um once or twice a week at this point when we record.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:45

Once or twice a week at this point. Yeah, seriously. Anyway, we got way off track. Like so far off track, where were we?

SPEAKER_03 1:15:58

I think I think we were basic we talked about your plans for the year. Yes. Um we know there's no more from this series right now, but there is more in the world, if you will, coming.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:12

And that will be a five book series. Okay. So yes. So there's a trilogy coming, there's a five books in this world, and there's a spin-off that I am gonna write, which is the the time traveling adventures of a vampire librarian. So that's coming yesterday, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:29

Wait, wait, you just you just threw this on now. Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:36

Oh, that's not written there's nothing written on that. I've got oh, so many ideas, so many ideas, man.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:42

I want to do tell us, Chris, where can people find more about you? I know you said you have a very active Facebook group.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:49

They do some people. Yeah, okay, so um you can go to my website, it's massively out of date. I have started re-updating it. I actually haven't updated it since before the um the uh Broken Hotel books came out, which is how bad I've been on it. I am awful, and I will get that sorted out. Uh it's just I the problem is I could I could spend hours updating my website, or I could write a book. And writing a book keeps winning out, but I will do that basic admin. Uh, but you certainly, if you go there, you can follow the link to download a book, possibly both books. I can't remember if I've got them both set up yet. Uh two free novellas, um, one for each of the main series, so you can read those, get a taste. They are very different. Um, the the uh the Broken Hotel books are much more kind of young adult market. I've re let my kids who are 10 and 12 read the first one of those. They keep saying to me, When can we read uh the Cathar series? And I'm like, I don't think you can ever read the Cathar series. It's very, it's very sweary, it's very violent, it's very dark, but with lots of hope, and that was always a key point. It's very much full of heart and hope, but there's a lot of darkness lots where dungeon crawler calls sort of vibe, I guess you would say, on that sort of thing and that sort of level of stuff. Um, but yeah, there. Um you're gonna have to follow me on Instagram and Facebook. Uh the big one is my CN Rowan's Imperfect Imps, which is a Facebook group, incredibly active, the most wonderful group of people you'll ever come across. My Patreon, uh where you can follow me for um 1 euro uh or dollar or pound, whatever your currency is, um, or free. But I must say I don't post that much on the free upcoming list. But it's there, and I do occasionally throw some free stuff up on there. Um my newsletter, obviously. Uh, which again, as I said, you can grab two two free novellas and get my innane with drink uh every couple of weeks, which you can of course ignore and or unsubscribe. Or, you know, occasionally I might say to you, hey, guess what? Uh I've won some awards, and then probably just start wittering again. So, you know, why not? Why not?

SPEAKER_03 1:19:00

We'll have links for all of that stuff in our show notes for sure. You can find Chris all over the place and uh in all the places.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:08

That should be that should be my tablet, shouldn't it, really? Chris Rowan. He's all over the place.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:14

And he's won some awards. Lots of cliffs. PS won some awards, including best research on cliffhangers and cocktails.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:20

Yes, the cliffhangers and cocktails best weirdest research award. There's fantastic.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:26

That's a winner.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:27

Unusual. It wasn't weirdest, it was unusual. Unusual, unusual, best unusualist.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:34

The unusualist. It's another Stephen King book.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:36

Well, thank you so much for joining us today and telling us about your books and talking with us about whiskey and all kinds of historical nonsense and just fun stuff. It was great.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:50

It's been fantastic. No, thank you very much. It's been an absolute pleasure, a delight, and of course, an honor to spend this moment in your time. And I I um appreciate it more than I can possibly say.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:04

That was um amazing.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:09

I have a sneaking suspicion that if you head back over to our YouTube channel in a few days, you'll get to see the full interview with Chris Rowan because that was.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:21

That was so fun.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:24

I hope you notice the ghostly arm of my butler sneaking in about three-quarters of the way through my inner video to refill my whiskey for me.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:35

That was great. That was so great. So, um, okay, now it's time for the Oracle card or tarot, whatever we have. We're doing tarot.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:45

Yeah, we're doing tarot.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:47

And I'm using the same deck that I used a couple weeks ago with Heather, mostly because this is an awesome deck that I have just been reunited with, and I love it, and it's pretty. So this is the Murder of Crows.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:01

Black again with red letters and it's big old black crow on the front.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:07

Different crow on the back.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:08

Love it, love it, love it. Different stuff on the side. Yes, crowded and our lady with her crow. Okay. I love decks that open like that. It's one of those ones where it's it opens sort of like in the middle and the top slides up and off rather than folding out. So the inside.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:31

It's the same, but it's all in red.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:34

Yeah, like the uh black. They do the reverse images and yeah. Yeah. Ooh, I love it.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:41

So I my duck has shuffled and I am ready for this, y'all. So I hope you are too. I'm gonna cut. This is really gonna talk about our relationship to the ancestors and the ancestral rights, I think, is what the energy that I'm putting into this read right now.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:01

Okay, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:03

So I just drew the nine of cups. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:09

A lot of cups going on.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:10

Oh no, my last draw from here was also cups. So it's a time of community and family and pulling together because cups is very much a that kind of relationship situation. So here is a woman, a white woman, with her hair kind of in a little updo. She's got black wings and she is pouring liquid from one cup to another.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:33

And as always, these photos are on our social media when I announce them. For some reason, my camera is really obsessed with my facial region and will only focus there. So, which honestly, can you blame it? Look at me. Okay, so nine of cups. And this book that is Corrado Roy with the text by Charles Harrington is the book in the deck.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:00

And links will be in the show notes, as always. So we have our Knight of Cups. Your guides and angels urge you to travel farther and plumb new deaths. The journey has also taught you about striving for something and learning to experience joy in what you find. You now know how to fulfill your passions and say to the dark voice of skepticism and hesitation, be gone. I have found hearth and home, and you are not welcome here anymore. So the keywords for this are satisfaction, they are bliss, they are acceptance. And how we have found home. We have found hearth and home. Yes, and that is so perfect for what we're doing.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:46

Yes. And the whole like, you know, you're not welcome here anymore, that's all about the letting go of fear. Yeah. Oh, I love it. That is so great. And the searching, like the that we're searching, we're going far, maybe not in a physical way, but we're going far, maybe into the past to find those roots. I love that.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:10

You have that emotional fulfillment that you've been seeking for. And nine, the the nine card in all the suits really represents getting to the end of a journey of searching. Um, the nine and the ten are the end of a journey. And so in when you get to nine, you are you're at that, you've you've gone to the end of your journey, and you have been successful.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:37

Nice.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:38

And this is what we're looking for. We're all journeying to find that past within us and to find that home and that heart.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:45

And that community.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:46

Yes. And the nine, you're not alone, but you have a nine. So it's love it. You have community. And as a reminder, with this card, it's a good time to focus on what you are grateful for, what amazing things have come your way. Appreciate what you have now and cherish it. Because in addition to inheriting this generational, the generational traumas and the generational joys, you are a generation. Yes. And so bring that joy into yourself and appreciate it as hard as you can because someone else is going to benefit from that down the road.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:28

Amy, where can they get the deck and the books and the checking out of Chris's website and all of that stuff?

SPEAKER_03 1:25:36

Well, if you check out our show notes, read our YouTube description, or you can even, for some of that information, go to Instagram. It's mostly in the show notes.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:50

Thank you everybody for joining us today, for listening to us ramble about whiskey. I hope that you do some research into your family tree. If you find anything super cool or interesting, let us know. If you have an ancestral right that that is that you want to share that you think will be awesome for other people to know about, leave it in the show notes. We'd love to hear about it.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:16

Yeah, please share share with us, share with everybody. But if you don't want to share with everyone, please DM me on Instagram. You can email us at cliffhangers and cocktails at gmail.com. I read all of our emails and respond to everybody.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:29

Yes. So sign up for our newsletter if you want. Oh yeah. Uh at Cliffhangers and Cocktails.com. Uh and get our somewhat monthly emails that I send out to let you know what's uh what's out, which episodes are out.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:47

Yeah, follow us on Instagram, follow us on Facebook. I'm definitely more active on Instagram. Stuff goes out on Facebook, but I don't hang out there because um, but definitely Instagram and like, subscribe, smash all the buttons. And smash but smash it gently.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:10

Smash it gently.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:11

Don't smash it hard on your computer.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:13

No, no. Uh be sure to share, leave a comment. We'd love to hear from you. And we will see you next time on the pod.

unknown 1:27:23

Bye.