Episode 26: Candle magic limericks, Guyanese folklore, and an interview with JASMAINE PAYNE!

This week's episode features protective amulets and spells - mostly to keep our minds safe from Jasmaine Payne's LEECH! Blend up a piña colada and settle in for a great interview that covers topics such as Guyanese folklore, writing and mentoring in Guyana, and ways to protect your mind and spirit.

Find Jasmaine Payne:

Buy LEECH on Amazon! https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FBL75992

Website: https://jasmainepayne.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/author_jasmainepayne/

Samantha Hargrove crystal episodes:

Episode 10 - Magic ROCKS!: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2429206/episodes/17620807

Episode 16 - (Crystal) Size Matters: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2429206/episodes/18224890

The Book of Stones: http://www.thebookofstones.com/

Candle Magic! https://digital-coven.com/2025/04/10/candle-magick-for-busy-witches-5-minute-spells-for-protection-abundance-self-love/

Nouveau Goddess Oracle Deck: https://www.etsy.com/listing/4392319596/the-nouveau-goddess-oracle-and-major

Protective Symbols: https://www.pagangrimoire.com/

Piña Colada (Energy: abundance, luck, fertility, cleansing, protection)

Ingredients:

• 2 oz white rum
• 4 oz pineapple juice
• 2 oz cream of coconut
• I cup ice
• Maraschino cherry/Pineapple wedge to garnish

 Directions:

Add all ingredients to blender and blend well. Pour into glass and garnish. Enjoy while focusing on abundance.

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Don't forget to like, rate, review, subscribe, and share!

Thanks - the Caftan Coven

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Welcome to Cliffhangers and Cocktails Podcast with you! That is me. That is you. And me, ShaynaCloud, USA Today best-selling authors of paranormal women's fiction, among other things. And this podcast is brought to you as always by the Captain Coven.

SPEAKER_02 0:28

Today we're gonna be talking with Jasmine Payne about her new supernatural thriller, Leech. We'll also be talking about protection spells, as well as the usual drinkies, witchy things, and of course, general shenanigans. Woohoo! Shenanigans. Shenan again.

SPEAKER_03 0:48

Yes. Do you have an affirmation for us today?

SPEAKER_00 0:51

Amy, you know I do. And so today's uh affirmation theme is about protection. Um lots of stuff going on in the world, lots of stuff going on for a lot of people individually.

SPEAKER_03 1:08

So I'm so when you read Jasmine's book, you're gonna be like, well, someone should have had some protection spells going on there.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

Exactly, exactly. Um and so I found uh kind of searched online and found some different affirmations, and I really liked this one. I am surrounded by a powerful force of protection and love, keeping me safe and secure in all situations. I like that. Yes, it's really nice, and I like to kind of pair it, like one of my strongest personal protections that I use is just imagining myself inside like a bubble of light. And for me, it's like a purple color. For other people, like it's a white light or whatever, but for me it's purple. Woohoo, yum. Well, that's the best kind of mustache, really. Come on. Um, so yeah, if you if you do something like that while you're doing the affirmation, it can really set you up for a good day. It cannot help, however, protect you from pina colada mustaches. Sorry.

SPEAKER_03 2:21

Yes, I should have gotten a straw.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

That's why I use a straw, because it's I'll end up wearing it otherwise. Yeah, so today, obviously, we're talking about protection spells and amulets.

SPEAKER_03 2:36

Yeah, no, I was so excited when I pulled the script up for this because this is actually something that we've been talking about within the caftan coven um with our third member. Um and so it's just with everything else, too, it's so timely. So I'm really excited to talk a little bit about this.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

Yeah, because like I said, you know, this is a like things are chaos all over the world. They're really chaos here in the US. But um it's even when things are chaotic, um, it's even more important than ever to protect our energy and our emotional and mental well-being. And that can be really difficult. You can take on too much of what's going on of that negative energy. So it's really important. Um, I think part of our job, or at least I feel that part of my job as a as a woman, as a witch, is to put out as much positivity and good stuff into the world as I can. And so it's really important for me to protect myself from all that negativity. And that's exactly what these spells and amulets, like protection spells and amulets were designed for. It's to shield your energy or your space, like your home space or your workspace, and your loved ones from negativity, malicious intent, or even spiritual harm. And these things date back pretty much in every yeah, forever. Pretty much forever since we've been human. And they and pretty much every culture has them. Like any.

SPEAKER_03 4:26

I feel like a very visible, a very visible protection, yeah, um, thingy bobber is like the evil eye. Yes. Like that's such a visible, I think, well-recognized amulet that is it protects you from the evil eye. Yeah. And that's that's something that exists not in that form exactly, but among across all cultures.

SPEAKER_00 4:51

All cultures have something similar, yeah. And common methods, um, you know, also include protective herbs and crystals and wearable items, like either like the like the evil eye, like you said, or some whatever similar symbol, or like exactly, or like a charged, sometimes people will charge a piece of jewelry that they wear frequently, and that will be sort of their amulet. Yes, perfect. It's a black tourmaline, right? That stone. Yeah. Yeah. And that is it's supposed to. Um, like I have black tourmaline pretty much in every corner of my house, and I know you wear it. Um, but I basically use it for I mean it's mostly for negativity absorption. So it like just absorb absorbs negativity. Um, and you do need to like charge them every once in a while and clean them out.

SPEAKER_03 5:50

Yes, you do. Ask me how I know.

SPEAKER_00 5:56

How do you know? Because it kept breaking off.

unknown 6:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:02

How? They will break once they've absorbed too much.

SPEAKER_03 6:06

Yeah, that's the I'm much better at keeping them uh cleansed at this point. Yes. Anyway, so besides black tourmaline, yeah. What other crystals can we use, Shaya?

SPEAKER_00 6:20

Well, there's a lot of them, Amy. Um, but one of them is smoky quartz, which is really good for grounding, which grounding is really important um when there's chaos. Um amethyst provides psychic connection, and we both love our amethyst. I don't know why I'm pointing at my head.

SPEAKER_03 6:41

Well, because we think of our I'm trying to show off my bracelet.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

Oh, I see. Oh, yes, ACS, you're wearing your amethyst. Um, I've got my amethyst stone that I keep here on my desk while I'm writing all the time because it also helps with creativity, but you know, the um the psychic protection is super important. Um, but like there are so many stones that are like offer protection. So if you know you want to do a deep dive, there's there's um a lot of really good books out there.

SPEAKER_03 7:15

Um I think it's called like something like the Crystal Bible or something like that, where it's just like Yeah, that's something that when we had a previous guest on Samantha Hargrove, uh she talked a little bit about that. Yeah, so I'll pull that link out of her video and drop that into our show notes, but also you guys should go watch that because it's a pretty great it is a really great view at looking looking at crystals and um like the chakras and how that can all work together as well.

SPEAKER_00 7:47

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 7:47

That's also that's Sam, that's our company.

SPEAKER_00 7:50

Yes, we love her. And it's actually a two-part uh episode, really. And so it's it's just some really good information. So yeah, if you if you have that book or you can get that book, or like there there are some online resources as well, but like um they really there's like so many, but black tourmaline is just one of the go-tos. Um, amethyst and and smoky quartz, yeah, are really good. Um you can also do like a candle ceremony too, um, for protection. I do that quite a bit. Um, I usually pair it with a cocktail because you know me and my cocktails, but um I I don't. You do you don't, you you've never heard that I enjoy a cocktail or two.

SPEAKER_03 8:38

No. No, never heard it.

SPEAKER_00 8:40

It is the name of our podcast. Um cliffhangers and and shenanigans. It's it's funny because like people think of black candles as like, oh, they're they're evil, it's satanic worship or whatever. But actually, um black candles are for protection and repelling negative energy. So if they're the they're the go-to candle. If you don't have black candles, you can use white. White is kind of an all-purpose candle. You just basically, and this is kind of how I do it, and it's really simple, you just light the candle, visualize the flame, sort of burning away all that nonsense, negative nonsense, kind of creating this sort of protection protective bubble. And really that's that's that's it. But you can also kind of circle it with salt for protection. You can even um I there's a link here that I put that we can put in the show notes from um Candle Magic for Busy Witches. They they have really short little, you know, spells, which is really fun. And um they had a little little spell like no harm shall reach me, no ill shall stay. This flame burns bright to keep them away. So if you like to do like a little rhyming ritual while you're doing your candle magic, um you can do something along those lines. So you can create your own even better.

SPEAKER_03 10:12

And then it doesn't have to rhyme.

SPEAKER_00 10:14

And it doesn't have to rhyme. Like a lot of times I'll just have like just a simple like sentence that I say or something, or I'll think it in my head.

SPEAKER_03 10:22

You do get bonus points though for limericks?

SPEAKER_00 10:26

Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:28

You know what? I'm gonna compose a limerick. Oh, do that. And I will make sure that I share that when this episode comes out.

SPEAKER_00 10:37

Yes, please. I want because I do love a limerick. I do love a limerick. And now you have an amulet that you like to wear, like I do.

SPEAKER_03 10:49

This is it's a piece of polished black tourmaline. Um, and then it's a raven skull, a silver raven skull. But I wear these together because the raven is kind of like my uh the animal that I really identify with Corvids and General Ravens and Crows. So I love that, and then it fits like they didn't come together, but it fits perfectly. Oh, it does on the point of the turmline.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

It would look like they almost do ice together, but they're the first time I saw it, I thought they came together like that. And you're like, no, I put them together, and I'm like, that is so cool because they're perfect.

SPEAKER_03 11:27

Um so I wear this every day. I take it off to sleep because otherwise um what happens is I get tangled up in it, and then the little beak will stab me in the back, and I'll be like, ah and we don't want that.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

So if you have a piece of jewelry that you like to wear all the time, you can literally charge it and make it a protection amulet. And just do that by passing it through the smoke of your candle flame um while focusing on a protection ward. So you can like combine your candle magic and I was just gonna say cleanse it as well? That's how I would cleanse it as well. That's a good way to cleanse it. Um and if you don't have a a selenite plate to recharge the crystal, um, I have a selenite plate.

SPEAKER_03 12:13

Yeah, but you should get a selenite plate.

SPEAKER_00 12:15

You should, and it doesn't have to be big, like or you could buy like a little bowl or just like a little, you know, it doesn't have to be mine's mine's a good square, I don't know, six inches by no, it's not six inches, it's probably about three by three, I think. So it fits a few small crystals on it at once, but um, just place it overnight and it'll be charged. But yeah, this doing a little smoke cleansing will really help, and then recharge it on your selenate plate would be would be optimal. And um so you can buy an amulet that's already designed for for purpose, or you can create your own. And I always think it there's a lot of meaning behind creating your own. But you do you, boo. You do you.

SPEAKER_03 13:04

Yeah, we're not here to tell you how to wish, we're just here to help guide you along the way.

SPEAKER_00 13:09

Exactly. Give you some ideas that you can take and make your own. Um, there's also one of my favorite favorite ways to dispel negative energy that's built up throughout the day or whatever, is um to do either a bath or shower cleansing ritual. And now I know that you have something to talk about. Uh a special recipe for a salt scrub to help remove those negative vibes.

SPEAKER_03 13:37

Yes. Yes. I find um I used to use these a lot when I would take baths, um, and I would just put this the salts, I would have my own salt mixtures that I would put into the bath, Epsom salts and a few other things, but I don't have a bathtub anymore. And so I've been thinking about this, and I was actually doing some research on this not too long ago, and so I was excited when I saw this in the in the um script today. I'm planning on making a salt scrub that's first of all, it's great for your skin. Oh, yeah. So you're exfoliating, you're gonna just glow anyway. Um, but it's so easy to make a salt scrub. Absolutely. And I've made them in when I was really a DIY kind of person. I used to make these for people for presents all the time. And I'd get like cute little jam jars. You take uh basically, let's say, a cup of sea salt or Epsom salt. I prefer Epsom. Sea salt is good as well. You need a quarter cup of some kind of oil, um, and that kind of binds everything together so you're not just rubbing dry salt on yourself or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 14:46

Oh, yeah, do you have an oil you like to use? Is there one that you prefer?

SPEAKER_03 14:51

Um, I like avocado oil. Um, jojoba, olive oil can work. Coconut oil tends to make things a little gloopier than you want. Like it's got a nice scent and a nice feel to it, but it does make I don't know, it makes things weird. So any kind of like oil that would make you feel happy, but jojoba is a really good one, avocado is a really good one.

SPEAKER_00 15:15

I've done it with olive oil. That's I don't I've never thought to do it with avocado, but I do have avocado oil.

SPEAKER_03 15:22

Olive oil is great too. There's a lot of olives here. I might do that for this one. Um, and then if you want um you want some kind of like a fragrance or whatever, you can add some essential oils, 10 to 20 drops of whatever essential oil you might have. Um lavender is a good one that I've often used. But also, you can add in, and this is where some of your protection herbs can come in. I've made rosemary sea salts before with dried rosemary. Nice um lavender, adding lavender, a dried lavender into it is nice as well. Um, honestly, any kind of herbs will go really well in this. And I find rosemary just to be a very pleasant shower experience when you come out smelling like a happy little chicken. No, because you rinse it off. You don't smell like a chicken when you're done, I promise. Probably.

SPEAKER_00 16:17

Probably, maybe, we don't know. I mean, maybe you do, and maybe that's cool.

SPEAKER_03 16:21

Uh the recipe that I pulled this up from said you could also do like coffee grounds.

SPEAKER_00 16:26

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:27

Like, and if you wanted like a morning kind of ah, wake me up kind of salt scrub. Yeah. Um, I don't want coffee grounds in my salt scrubbing, but yeah, that's an option. And I'll have this recipe in the show notes and I'll have a little demo um on our YouTube charts. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

I love it. I love it. Yeah, and speaking of herbs, um, sage is a really good clearing herb. Um, in fact, it's commonly used in uh smoke purification rituals. Rosemary is also often used, particularly in saning, which is Scottish um witchcraft. Um, but it's a good protection. So, like I say, perfect to put in uh salt scrub. Cinnamon is actually really good for protecting your spiritual energy. So, like, you know, put it in your coffee or whatever. Um Angelica root. So you can you can there's a lot, there's so many different herbs and spices and things that that have protection power. So you could burn them, you can as like a an incense or or for smoke cleansing, you can wear them in a sachet, like tucked in your pocket, um, or you know, grow them, grow them, not throw them.

SPEAKER_03 17:52

I misread the script earlier. I thought she wanted us to throw them at your front door.

SPEAKER_00 17:59

If you really want to throw your herbs at your front door, feel free. You do you. But I would recommend maybe growing them at your front door.

SPEAKER_03 18:12

On the first of the month, I think, is when you do their cinnamon over the threshold. Yes. And when we first started talking about that, I never had ground cinnamon. I only ever had cinnamon sticks. So I always thought I could just check cinnamon sticks at my front door. So C, it still works.

SPEAKER_00 18:31

Um and then of course we spoke we spoke about this before about the symbols, the protection symbols, and one of them being the evil eye, which comes from the ancient Mediterranean and Middle East. Um, and it's just a charm against envy and ill intent. And if you're not familiar with the evil eye, um it's that it's a that circular image that has like the little black people in the middle, and then a lighter a light blue around it, then a white, and then a darker blue. And you see them a lot in like bead form or whatnot in various shops. Um, but I found this awesome uh at PaganGrimoire.com. I found this awesome um, and I'm gonna just show it for those of you who are watching, so you can see what I'm talking about. It's just a little uh diagram, I guess, or image of Infographic? Infographic! That's the word I was trying to think of, um, which is just about different protection symbols. So they have the Hamsa, which is the palm-shaped amulet from North Africa and the Middle East, uh, the Eye of Horus from ancient Egypt, that Triskeli, or Trisceli, Trisceli, the Celtic Triple Spiral, uh Witches Knot, which is an endless knot that's used to uh bind negativity and guard the home. And of course, there's some runes here. There's the Algies, Algies, and the Ingoos. Um, there's a couple runes there. There's the pentacle, also, the five-pointed star that is within a circle. It guards balance and protection. Um, Tayet, I I hadn't heard of this one, Tayet, but it's an Egyptian knot of Isis.

SPEAKER_03 20:23

Um that one's cool looking.

SPEAKER_00 20:25

Yeah, that one's really cool. It's uh hard to describe. It almost looks like a person, almost looks like a person in like a a robe, like a hooded robe, but it's actually a sort of a knot.

SPEAKER_03 20:37

Um I did think it was a person in a hooded robe until I read the description.

unknown 20:41

I know.

SPEAKER_03 20:42

Um and this will be up on our socials, so you'll get to see it. Yeah. Go and zoom over to Instagram.

unknown 20:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

And then there's the labrus, which I'd also never heard of, which is a double-headed axe from Minoan and Greek tradition. So there's lots of different protection symbols and um that you can pick from uh that if you can pick something from your heritage, or the pentacle is kind of a and the witch is not are kind of all-purpose. I mean, the witch is not as tight to Celtic tradition, but um, but but like the pentacle is an all-purpose everybody, everybody gets to use it sort of a thing.

SPEAKER_03 21:26

Well, and I think that a lot of the Celtic stuff is not part of closed traditions. True. So I don't think there would be any reason to to avoid Celtic symbology. Um when you're looking at Norse and Scandinavian runes, yeah, it's not closed traditions necessarily, but you do need to be very careful with them because they have been appropriated by white supremacists. Yes. So before you get any runes tattooed on your body, make sure you just do a real good internet search that you're not accidentally aligned. Yourself with it's terrible, but this is a topic.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

Yeah, it's so psychic. I hate that.

SPEAKER_03 22:05

But I there's there's symbols that I that are meaningful to me that I would never display because of that. Um so but again, not closed. Just don't use it for evil.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

Yeah. That would be my recommendation for all of you. But I'm sure.

SPEAKER_03 22:24

And I can't speak to like the Egyptian ones or the Noan or I can't speak to those. Yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

I think the evil eye has been you has become kind of a universal thing, but like I again I don't know that much about the history. I'd have to do a deeper dive into that. But like certainly the Pentacle, the Triscoli, the the Witch is not, at least two of those come from Celtic tradition, and I can say those those are not closed, and you know, it's from my heritage, so I give you permission. Um now, so Amy, what are we drinking today? What's our cocktail of choice?

SPEAKER_02 23:03

Well, I'm so glad you asked, Seya, I'm having a pina colada. Pina colada. And as you've noticed, I've been having some struggles keeping it off of my face.

SPEAKER_03 23:15

But I think it's low enough now. I got my coconut too frothy. It's like, oh, my lobster was too buttery. Oh no. Um and this was what Jasmine had said was one of her favorite cocktails. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 23:31

We did not fight her on this. No, not at all. She she had some some of it with us when we did her interview. It's it's it's the same thing. I added all the ingredients to like a blender. I I measured with my heart this time. Because I was like, I've made this enough times at this point, I think I I know what I want. And I just uh so you've got your your rum for cleansing and protection. So right along with the theme here. You've got your pineapple juice for your also pineapples are for protection as well. Coconut is used in rituals for cleansing and protection.

SPEAKER_03 24:13

Um, I also made mine with my heart. Um, at this point, I mean I do make drinks with my heart still. I know that it sounded in recent episodes that I have started measuring more and appreciating that. But I I today I made this with my heart. Um and I don't blend mine because as far as blended drinks. Um so I just take equal parts rum, pineapple juice, and cream of coconut, and then squose a half a lime into it and shook it. But I did a dry shake of the coconut first because coconut can get a little gloopy. Gloopy, as we discussed with the salt. We did. Um and that's been a problem with the last few times I've made potatoes, it's gloopy coconut since I'm not putting it through a blender. Right. So I did a dry shake of just before I added the ice and it got super frothy, like when you do an egg white drink. Yeah. And you get all that extra froth. Um gives you a mustache if you don't have. Oh yeah, I was trash. Um, but I like to have a little bit of that lime juice in there. I know some of the more traditional recipes call for um fresh pineapple and simple syrup. Yeah. But since Shay and I both use pineapple juice instead, then that that takes the need for a simple syrup away.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 25:36

And I garnished with a lime, but you can't see it anymore.

SPEAKER_00 25:39

When I did the um the one for when we were having the interview, I decided instead of using ice, I'm just gonna use frozen pineapple, which texturally worked great. But the problem was using both pineapple juice and frozen pineapple was a little too much pineapple. It was very acidic. Like acidic going down, I should say. Like you could feel the burn. So I'm like, oh, maybe I should have used water instead of pineapple juice.

SPEAKER_03 26:14

So this time I went back-that's a little simple syrup.

SPEAKER_00 26:17

All right, yeah, something like that. I need yeah, I needed something, I needed not to use pineapple juice if I was using pineapple. So, um, but so this time I just went back to the old my old way of doing it.

SPEAKER_03 26:33

Well, speaking of pineapple's and Jasmine's favorite cocktail, should we go talk to her? I think we should. Really struggling to not get pineapple all over my face. It's so frothy. Like, it's ridiculously frothy.

SPEAKER_00 26:53

I mean, it gets frothy in the blender, but like not that frothy.

SPEAKER_03 27:00

No, it's like an egg white foam. It's just like foam foam dome.

SPEAKER_01 27:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 27:12

Okay, everybody, thanks for joining us. We're talking to Jasmine Payne, who I met through a really cool writer's group, and I knew the minute she spoke that I uh that we needed her to come on the pod. So thank you for joining us, Jasmine.

SPEAKER_04 27:30

Thank you so much, yeah. So happy. I felt the same when I saw you on the on the on the group. I was like, oh, I love her energy. Remember, I told you?

SPEAKER_00 27:38

Yes, I do, yes. Yes. I was like, this is gonna be fun one.

SPEAKER_03 27:42

So Resin Hayne is a Guyanese author, editor, and communications specialist whose debut psychological thriller Leech, published in 2025, breaks new ground as the first of its kind, written by a female author based in Vienna. Her writing journey began early, crafting novel-length stories on fan fiction boards and in well-worn notebooks passed among classmates in high school. She was first published at age 11, winning the UNICEF Environmental Awareness Poetry Competition in 1999. Resident holds a BA in English from the University of London, Goldsmith, and an MBA in marketing from the University of Hedfordshire. Her work has been featured in respected anthologies and publications, including Guiana and Pifty, 50 Women 50 Leaders, Gem Magazine, and Lady Knights. Her short story, another one her mother moved, was also shortlisted for the Guiana Annual Competition. Being a 2025 Influential Women Leaders Award recipient, Jasmine is also an experienced trainer who leads writing workshops for media professionals and aspiring creatives. Deeply passionate about storytelling in all forms, she continues to mentor young writers across the Caribbean. Her favorite author is Stephen King, and horror thriller remains her friend. And I am mid-leached Rake, and I am enjoying it so much. Thank you, my god, thank you. Like it's creepy, I'm assuming is the point. But um, yeah, it's really like the way it's being set up is unique and pulled me in immediately. I appreciate you bet. So into this. It's all that's missing here.

SPEAKER_00 29:34

I just started it, but yeah, like I was like, okay, this is different. Like, ooh. So yeah, it was really exciting to read. So what there was a specific thing that we you talked about when you were on Ink Aura that especially made me want to have you on. But before we get to that, let's talk about the most important questions. It's the most important question you'll probably never be asked in your life. Do you have a favorite cocktail? I do. Yay! So tell us what we're drinking today, gentlemen.

SPEAKER_04 30:17

I don't have a cherry. Does anybody have a cherry? Nope. I don't have a cherry.

SPEAKER_00 30:21

I'm not a cherry, so I'm a line. Yeah.

unknown 30:24

You're a line.

SPEAKER_00 30:27

Um, so yeah, so the thing that I was gonna talk about, because you're calling Leech like a supernatural thriller, which so supernatural fits, but the thing that really hit me um was that um it was you mentioned that it was sort of based on Guyanese folklore.

SPEAKER_01 30:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

And so that was like, ooh, I'm so curious about that. So kind of tell us you your your author journey is a little bit in your bio, but like um I know you have a really interesting journey about how you s you know began writing this book and why and why you ended up choosing self-publishing. And um, so so kind of walk us through that, talk to us about about that and how how folk Guyanese folklore, which I am quite sure most of our listeners are probably not super familiar with, um might how that played a role in in this story.

SPEAKER_04 31:33

Okay, so um yeah, so I'll start with the context of writing in Guyana in general. And unfortunately, we don't have a a developed uh publishing industry. In fact, we don't have a traditional industry, publishing industry at all. So if you want to write a book in any way, unless you do go through the process um of submitting to agents or publishers outside of Guyana, which we know we all know how that comp how competitive that is, it's even more competitive for us coming from outside of the industry. And so, you know, the immediate option for you is to self-publish. But the the other challenges um in our country is that we don't have a framework to support to kind of like build the capacity of local writers. And so when I set out to write my novel in 2013, you know, all I knew wanted to all I knew is that I wanted to write a book. Right. And you know, I I it started with a dream, you know how our us authors go, we're gonna get this crazy. Yeah, we're gonna even start writing it down, yeah, and you know, and so I was really was doing it in a very organic way. I didn't study for it, I was just writing the story because I've always done that with fanfiction. Um, but then I realized the undertaking was different because we the novel is the novel, and so I realized okay, I I I have to get some sort of academic support. So that's when I went to study for my bachelor's in English, and I started to understand the structure and what was required. But again, my writing was really slowed across that time because you know, again, there's nothing really pushing you to it. So, long story short, you know, between a lot of stops and starts, uh, 12 years later, the book was brought to life, right? And I'm just but I think it's the best, it's the best they say everything happens in the right time, yeah, because it it's just that it's unfortunate, but that's just how long it took for me to get all the tools to produce a proper book. Because for me, I didn't want to just write another fan fiction story and put it out there. I wanted my book to sit next to a shelf with a Stephen King, call me ambitious, and be like, Yes, this is ambition, good ambition. Good ambition. I appreciate that, Amy. Yeah, so um, for me, I if I was gonna do it, and it and because I know Guyana needed it for visibility, yeah, um, you know, I needed to do it well. A lot of the the writers that we have right now come from the diaspora from outside of Guyana. So I wanted to do something that was homegrown to show the writers here that yeah, it's hard, it could be lonely, but it can be done. It's doable. And here is how. So that's pretty much yeah, and a lot of authors have pretty much um paid attention since I published the book. Um, so I I would like to think that it's made some good, some good impact.

SPEAKER_00 34:37

That's exciting. That's really exciting.

SPEAKER_04 34:40

Yeah, as to the folklore specifically, so Guyana, like any Caribbean country, we're so we're culturally Caribbean, even though we're physically or geographically in South America, right? So we've got a very mixed culture, um, but we have a rich uh folklore culture, and so because our folklore comes from the indigenous people, the African people, the Indian people, the Chinese people, who are all mixed in the country, and so excuse me. So we have so much of those stories that we grow up with that we grow up learning. But for me, yeah, so for me though, the I don't think that they're developed enough because you know fireside stories, they're pretty short, you know, they've got a straightforward story, and that's it. And for me, I wanted to see like an origin story of a Guyanese um folklore monster. So funny enough, even though Leech, and I can't tell you yet because you're still reading the book, right? I'm still reading the book, I'm still writing, and I'm still writing the second book, which is a sequel. Um, but basically, this is the origin of one of Guyana's um most famous monsters called the Jumby. Okay. Yes. The jumbee is uh is like an unrested soul, right? Right? He's um so kind of like a poltergeist, okay. Um but they could be very violent. Most times they're very violent, they take many shapes and forms. So I pretty much started with a very layered version of how we make a jumbie.

SPEAKER_00 36:22

Okay, that is super cool. Yeah, because because when you talked about that, you didn't uh say specifically like which folklore it was or what it was. So I was so curious about that because you know, I've always been like a kind of a folklore mythology junkie. Oh yeah, I'm super into we both are, and so I can tell you guys some more stories later on. I love that. Love that. Yeah, so I was like, please, yeah, all the stories, yeah. And it's like obviously there's so many, you know, from around the world, and it's like one of the coolest things for me about um becoming familiar with authors from different areas is they bring different ideas and ways of ways of telling story. Um, and I have a friend who is from uh Guam, and when she writes a novel, it has such a different feel of storytelling. It's like yours. There's this different I don't like kind of cadence, like there's this little accent beneath it that's different. Yeah, like it's there's like that's different from a typical, you know, American, specifically Caucasian American person telling me. That's so interesting.

SPEAKER_04 37:46

You might say that because I never really thought of it, but it's only now that you're saying it in D, like the language, um, you know, how the sentences are formed, how we're gonna explain ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 37:57

Yeah, and I think I love reading stories like that that are just they're just told in this slightly different way that it's very unexpected. And I I just think that's it's but they're still relatable, understandable, they're still, you know, human, but they're like they've got this slight accent, they've got this little accent to them, yeah, that's that is like so different. And I just love that now.

SPEAKER_04 38:27

I'm gonna now think about that all the time.

SPEAKER_00 38:29

I love that, I love that.

SPEAKER_03 38:31

We talked about how this is a supernatural thriller, and that yeah, it part of it is that drew you to this is because you were very interested in telling the folklore and more origin stories. Um but that could have gone in a different way than supernatural thriller. So why the thriller aspect? Because there's a there's a lot of ways to go in folklore. Um as I'm not intimately familiar with folklore.

SPEAKER_04 38:58

No, no, no, you're right, and I love that you you're making me think about it, but now that you mentioned that, indeed, it didn't start off as a psychological thriller, it started off as a full gothic horror, because I mean 1800s, um 1800s, Jacques the Ripper type, uh gore. So it very much started out like that, and then over I think over the years, my taste, my interests, I matured, you know, everything kind of changed, and I started to just add more elements. And coming down to the end of it, I realized it was well, first of all, it was a different time. So I realized that okay, it might not age well, and I think that's something that you have to think about as a writer in the in the modern times. And so I realized, okay, I did have to water it down a little bit because I'm so dark in my head. Okay, so as I started to trim out, yeah, as I started to trim, you know, I was like, all right, this is sounding a little softer, we're not in horror space anymore. We're it's just like this and put it in the drawer. Yeah, exactly. So that's pretty much I'm happy you asked that question because it reminds me of just how much the novel has changed over the years, but you know, it's the best version of what it is now because it it gave me a sequel. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:20

Well, I think it's harder for women in general and uh black women and women of color in specific to be able to write that harder, gorier horror and not be hooked at a scance. Um white, middle-aged man, horror writer write things that are cringe-worthy regarding. I do too. I mean, you said I I read everything that Stephen King had ever written up until 2012. Yeah. Um, and so yes, I I have I know what he's put out there, and I think that he can put stuff out there that none of us could.

SPEAKER_04 41:09

Some of the things I'm reading, like right now, I've been reading a lot of Paul Tremblay. I don't know if you've you've heard of from him, heard of him, um, a headful of goals. Yeah. So he takes some risks, and I'm reading, I'm like, dude. Like, what? I don't know. And you it you're right. I'm I'm not sure if I would be able to get away with it. I mean, there are other things that that people might ask questions about for me, and they have asked me, like, why as a Caribbean uh colored woman or or black woman are you writing about um a white man from from England?

unknown 41:47

Right.

SPEAKER_04 41:48

So there's so I think questions will always come to you, and um, it's it's also one of the things I had to kind of decide how to how I would answer it. Um, because I mean we're we're a little stuck on what Caribbean stories are supposed to look like, and my story does not fit the mold at all at the Caribbean. I mean, right. So it depends on it depends on your circle. Yeah, yeah, it's it depends on your circle. So externally, people are gonna be like, oh, this is great, but internally they're gonna be like, Well, but this doesn't fit, you know. So it's it's a balance. I think either way you're gonna be judged, you know, and especially as a female author as well. So that's a good point in me.

SPEAKER_00 42:32

So you might as well do it. Should you be writing? I'm using my air quotes very liberal. Air quotes should, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 42:42

That's proper. What should be what I should be writing, and I will use only examples of like the winners of of co-competitions that I've submitted book submitted to, what has won or what has caught the the attention of the judges would be stories that are grounded in the Caribbean itself that speak to yeah, that speak to the Caribbean struggle or the Caribbean perspective, um, you know, a bit more localized in terms of dialect. They like to see a lot of that. I don't have any of that in my books. Except that my writer is a Guyanese writer who migrated. So I speak more to the migrant experience because in my family, that's what I'm familiar with, right? I am Guyanese, I live in Guyana, but but you know, I've I was affected positively and negatively by just seeing my parents, how they acclimated to the new space that they moved to. And I took those with me, and I, you know, I put some of those in the in the book that added some, you know, some texture to it. So I think that was my contribution to Caribbean.

SPEAKER_03 43:53

That's awesome, though. I thought it was really interesting towards the beginning of the book when um I'm I'm terrible at all names and my name. Naomi. No. Nora. Nora. You know what? I will just cut all of that out. And um when talking about um how she and her husband had emigrated, and how it wasn't necessarily that they were super excited about it, but if your number came up, you just went because that's what you were expected to do. Yes, exactly. I thought that was such an interesting perspective on how that immigration would work. Because this is this is where you got if you can, you do. Even if it's not like, woo, I'm so excited. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 44:44

Yeah. But I get I think it what I saw from my parents was just the age, and it shows, you know, the stage of your life and when probably those opportunities are are ideal for you. Like if they're already in their 50s, 60s, which they were at the time, you know, they're not interested in picking up and starting life over. But it's something that you know they've waited so long for, they're not gonna let their family's efforts go to waste, so they're gonna go, you know.

SPEAKER_00 45:12

Yeah, wow. Yeah, wow. Yeah, because we don't really, you know, that's not really something in our experience. So it's so interesting to be able to experience that in a different way. And I remember you saying in your interview in Inc. Aura that when you talked about this, was that you wanted to make this ex these experiences, your these, your culture, your your mythology available, more available, not just to people who lived in the Caribbean, but available and accessible to all people to read it and connect with it.

SPEAKER_04 45:47

Yeah, and palatable too, because um, and that comes back to what sounds like a Caribbean story. So in that space, too, the folklore sounds well very much similar to each other. They of course they come up with their different stories, but again, it it fits a particular mold. And I said, okay, I want to make an international jumbee.

unknown 46:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 46:11

So that some because what happens is that when you for me personally, and I think it probably comes back to your your aim as an author, for me, I do want to be read widely. I want to be read by people in Portland, I want to be read by people in yeah, in critical, and I want it to be appreciated across the board. But what happens, I think when we when we steep our our language and dialect, we kind of alienate each other. So there must be a middle ground. And for me, I guess that's what I'm trying to to strike. The middle ground where it sounds like something everyone can understand and appreciate as a story and still learn about in that particular area of the world, you know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:52

Well, so far what I've read, I think you have done a great job at that. So I and and that I mean, I think that's one of the things that um I've always thought that art and especially story can literally change people's perspectives, literally change people's minds and hearts. It's powerful. And so by being able to make it something that people who have zero experience with your culture and folklore can understand and embrace it, is really, really cool. It's really, really powerful. And it makes me think a little bit more about my stories and how I tell them. And are they accessible to other people in other cultures as well? Am I sharing with them in a way they can understand?

SPEAKER_04 47:51

Which well, I will, I did just FYI, I did um jump on your Kickstarter and I do hope to receive my book. You will, you will, yes, you can tell me, and I'll tell you, but I think um, and I think that's another reality for countries that are not as big as the US or you know in Europe and so on. I think in general, we are trained from very early on to be influenced by Western culture, right? And that's not necessarily a bad thing. Some people benefit from it in terms of exposure, but other places you see their culture getting wiped out by it, right? But what I'm saying is that at the end of the day, what the fortunate thing for you as a writer in in America is that when you do send your stories out there, it's more understood than a story from here because it's already what we're taught to consume, you know? Right.

SPEAKER_00 48:46

Oh, yeah, through media. Yeah, it is what it is.

SPEAKER_04 48:49

Yeah, it is the the language, we know the American accent so well, you know, so it's easy to understand. No, it's just a reality. You grow up watching American TV from a very young age, you know. So um, our local channels didn't have much for content, so we would have cable channels. So again, you we we understand that culture earlier than than the average person, I guess. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:14

Whereas a great deal of privilege being an American being an American, yeah. Because I mean it is what it is.

SPEAKER_03 49:21

Yeah, I mean, but it it is. But that's exactly what it is. Exactly. Our culture has just gone woo everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 49:27

And so many, so many of us are insular, sometimes not through choice. Like I remember when I lived in London, so many be people being shocked. Like at that time, like only 30% of Americans had passports. And someone said this to me and was so shocked by it. And I'm like, but think about how big our country is, and the fact that most people get one or maybe two weeks of vacation a year.

SPEAKER_04 49:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:55

So they're gonna go to their families if their family is that far away, or if they're gonna travel to another state, right? Travel to another state, you know. We can go to Hawaii without having a passport.

SPEAKER_04 50:07

Um so a lot of them just don't because I remember getting surprised by that too, but easily understanding why, because I mean it's so big, and indeed, you just hop a state away, and you're you know, you're in a different time zone. So I know. Now, of course, many time zones.

SPEAKER_00 50:25

Yeah, totally, yeah. How many time zones again? Um I mean, you can literally be in a in a completely different culture. We have very distinct cultures as well.

SPEAKER_04 50:35

Yes, but either way it works. Like you stay home, you're still exposed, you go out, you get more exposure.

SPEAKER_00 50:41

Exactly. And I think that's really important to expose to other ways of thinking besides just your little bubble. Um, I am really curious about like any kind of research you did for this story or any story that you've done, like what's your most interesting bit of research that you did for something that you wrote?

SPEAKER_04 51:03

So that no definitely, I mean, because Leech has taken up such a big chunk of my life, and I'm just such a slow and tunnel vision writer. I probably that's probably why I can't write anything else, you know, at the time. But if this is my project, if this is my work and project, this is everything for me. Um, so uh definitely all the the research that I put into this book, um, you know, well, Amy, you're further along than the Shea, but when you get like deeper in, you'll see in especially in the leech chapters, it's very thickly layered with 1800s medicine and studies. And it's it's just to the point that people are wondering where did I get this information from? Like I remember like studying like history books, you know, for months, just trying to understand what was the concept because I hadn't gone to England. I I've never gone to England, believe it or not. So um I said, okay, I need to understand. So I started studying paintings, I studied uh history books, I studied academic articles, just to understand, you know, what what um medicine was like and what the the healthcare was like in general, which was not good at all, what the crime was like. Um so I and I I just really loved somehow at uh in my head it it's so it's so much information that part of me is thinking, you know, as a writer, I'm I'll probably stay in the 1800s for a while. So like even after Leech, I might write another period piece because I've got so much knowledge. So much research. Yeah. Don't wanna don't want to waste it. It's really annoying too because like when I look at um shows like Bridgerton, I'm just like, that's not accurate. And I just know and I'm just like, that's not the tool they would be using.

SPEAKER_03 52:53

That's kind of hard. What deep dives into research is then you realize what everyone else is getting wrong, and you're like, no, you're so annoying, you know.

SPEAKER_04 53:01

That's all dressed. That dress does not have that material, and it comes back to like the the modern writing for the modern time because there are some things that would happen. Like, I explore the concept of race in that book, and as you know, 1800s Britain was not the most inclusive place. So um I do I do explore it a little bit, but again, those are some of the things I had to soften because bringing it into this current space, like you're not you wouldn't be able to speak of it, even if that's exactly what happened. So I think that's definitely a challenge to trying to stay authentic to to your work. Uh, because I mean history is what history is, even if we try to put a bow on it, you know. Yeah, exactly. I'm serious, and I have I I guess I'm one of those writers that have a problem. I'm less interested in pleasing the the modern reader than I am in educating you to say, hey, this is just how how it was, and this is a story about it.

SPEAKER_00 54:05

The realities were sometimes very ugly, as you know.

SPEAKER_04 54:10

Yeah, so I think that's one that is one of the challenges of the period piece at this time, because the period was not romantic as we may want to think at all.

SPEAKER_00 54:23

I mean, just think the year uh the year I was born was the first year women in the United States could have their own bank accounts or credit cards.

SPEAKER_04 54:32

Look at that. Like in the what the 20th century? Yeah, in the 20th century. In the 20th century, that's when that's when those things happen.

SPEAKER_00 54:39

Yeah. And and it's like I don't think people will realize like how recent all of some of this is. Yeah. So it's wild.

SPEAKER_03 54:49

Anyway, um, I don't think so. You said that because you've done all this research into this time period, that yeah, even in and you have a sequel to Leech that you're in process right now. So we're sorry, but and that because you've done this research, you might just stick with this time period for a while. But do you want to stay within the supernatural psychological thriller, or have you thought about other genres that you'd be interested in?

SPEAKER_04 55:19

I have thought about another, I don't know what genre it'll fit in yet, because just disclaimer, I don't do romance. I don't do romance, but I do have um this character that I'm thinking about. It's re she's a regal character, and so there's gonna be royalty um somewhere in there. I don't know what her race is gonna be yet, you know. So it's just very um very blotchy at the moment for one of the better characters. I have no idea what's gonna happen, but I have like little quotes, you know, things that she's gonna say to her husband and her servants, and I so they're just all in a in a little file there for me to get back to as soon as I finish this one. I love that. Yeah, I think I'm not sure though. It's definitely not from yeah, it's definitely not from this time. Um, and let's see how it goes. It's not loving, it's not if there's any sort of romance, it's gonna be so twisted that you're not gonna want it at all. Okay, but I am excited for this now. There we go. And now you gotta keep me honest, Amy. You gotta keep me ready.

SPEAKER_03 56:36

Well, we have this recorded.

SPEAKER_00 56:38

Recorded, and we just take the snippet and send it to you. Just drop it in there.

SPEAKER_04 56:48

Just drop the contact more words, and I'll be like, on it.

SPEAKER_00 56:57

That's fantastic. Um, so let's say Leech was picked up by you know Netflix or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 57:05

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 57:06

Wouldn't that be amazing? Yeah, like I can kind of just see that, like with your cover. I'm ready for it. I am ready for it.

SPEAKER_03 57:13

Ready for it to think it could happen just based on what I've read and everything.

SPEAKER_00 57:18

This is something that they would do too, I think. I mean, we'll be able to do that. I've got actors in my head, by the way. Like, this is what the question was. Who is who? Who plays who? I want to know.

SPEAKER_04 57:31

Hey, okay, so um, I don't know names, but I had posted it already on social media. But for for leech, for leech, Adrian Brody. Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay, plus I saw him in in Piki Blinders. I think he was Italian in that one. He didn't have the accent, but I think he would make a perfect leech just because of the build and like just how he carries himself. Yeah, he definitely has the kinny type and put it. Oh man. Yep, yep, yep, yep. I'm I'm with you, I'm with you. Yes, yeah. Um, for Ariane, okay, so there's this actress. So her name is Sophie Wild, and she came in this movie. It's a horror movie called Talk to Me. Okay. Yeah, that's she's so pretty. Oh, she's you know her, yes. So she's yeah, and for Nora, I had Felicia Rashad because she's like the quintessential, you know, maternal figure. Yeah, and for for my dad, or for George, look at me say my dad, he is based off of it. I have this guy called Del, um, his name is Delray Lindo. Oh, okay. You know, Delray, yes. Yeah, uh-huh. And then, oh, okay, so this is a good one. For Oscar Pressham, I don't know if you've met Oscar yet, Shea. I have uh uh but for Oscar, he's gonna be Kevin James. But not the funny, not the funny Kevin James. I've seen him I've seen Kevin Booth.

SPEAKER_00 59:15

I have seen him in a in a non-com comedic role, and I was like, What do you think about that, Amy?

SPEAKER_04 59:22

What do you think?

SPEAKER_03 59:23

Well, I'm reassessing my whole view right now, my whole view because I only know Kevin James from comedic roles, and so I'm struggling with this in my head at this moment because all I got is yeah, um, okay.

SPEAKER_02 59:43

I'm having to do a reassessment in my brain.

SPEAKER_04 59:46

Yeah, you're gonna, yeah. But I saw him there and I did like a uh trailer, and I was like, Yeah, he can do he can do uh Oscar. But I mean, Amy, I'm open to some suggestions because Netflix is gonna come comment, come rap and soon, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:01

We got yeah, we gotta be ready.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:03

I have spoken.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:04

Netflix is coming, yeah. We gotta be ready.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:07

I will I will go check out some serious Kevin James, yes, and then because I just I was like googling it just now because that's what we were thinking, and um there was like a bit of a trailer that popped up for a more serious role, and like yes, there's definitely where he's like ball headed, yeah, and uh yeah, but they're not a lot though, so I get I get it.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:33

Yeah, well I saw him in Hitched, which is actually a romantic comedy with Will Smith, but he kind of played a straight man to Will Smith's comedy, and yeah, he was just kind of like he wasn't like it wasn't dark or like, but he was a more it was a more serious role where he wasn't the funny guy, and I actually liked him in that role much more than I do in comedy. He's a good actor, he is, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:00

I mean, in in terms of how he's looking though, he looks really like um fit for this role. I cannot, for the life of me, I can't remember the the name.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:09

The guns up is the one that Google really wants me to watch now. Okay, an action comedy where he plays an action-focused role as a character named Ray Haynes. And that's what Google thinks I need to be alive. That's the one that they showed me. Google watch that. Let's start there.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:32

Let's start very serious. I was gonna ask, so I know that you you talked a little bit about um bringing more of a uh that you don't in Guyana, there's not a lot of systems in well, there's no infrastructure in place really for publishing, and how you wanted to kind of bring in some of that. And I know you recently had your first sort of workshop or or whatnot. Yeah. So what are your kind of plans for that?

SPEAKER_04 1:01:59

Yeah, so I'm I'm really interested in seeing a more active writing community in Guyana because of just the struggles I faced, and I know that I'm not alone, you know, if if across 12 years I can look around, there's still nothing there, or nothing sufficient, you know. Um, I wanted to be, I think they I I guess somebody said, you know, be the change you want to see, or something like that. So it's just like, hey, along this journey, like I I collected so much knowledge about the process, and I think it's just um people are not aware of how to to get into that space to bring their stories to life. And I know that there's so many people that are active writing, actively writing, but just in their in their silos. So, you know, using the the experience that I got and as well as the connections that I've made over the years, I've started to just reach out to people and say, Hey, can you do this? Can you bring this workshop? Can we get some funding? And um, so I I recently held a free poetry workshop with a a past winner of the Guyana Prize, which is the only prize that we have for writing. Okay. Um so uh we brought him in and he well, sorry, he came in on vacation. We had some I have some time, and so you know that that workshop filled up so fast. Oh, and he really saw, yeah, I mean we we had about uh just 20. Well, we couldn't keep more than 30 because you know, poetry you gotta be focused. And I'm hoping to use this as like a portfolio to kind of seek more opportunities. So as I build it, you know, probably more people might be able to say, okay, yes, I'll I'll put my money behind this because at the moment there's a lot of skepticism in the arts. You know, you're not gonna plug a whole bunch of money in the arts unless you see what's gonna come out of it, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:48

So yeah, yeah, yeah. That's really amazing though, because that's um all I've been more and more interested lately in mentorship, which was why I had so much fun chatting with everybody on the call last night and talking for two hours and giving myself a sore throat. Because I just, you know, I'm there's nothing like a bunch of people just hungry for knowledge. Yeah. So I think that's such an awesome opportunity for you and that you're giving to every everyone around you. I mean, you know, that I I just can't, you know, it's it's so it's so important to have your people, you know, around you. Um because this is such a solitary job.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:29

Um but uh I had the opportunity last year to mentor a middle school girl who wrote her first novel. Oh, maybe her library program. Nice. I think that they do every year the eighth graders in this middle school pick a year-long project to work on, and she decided to write a book. And she wrote the whole young adult romance. Wow. And it was very sweet. And I helped her through, she got it published. I helped her through her whole self-publishing process, and it was it was so great, and just to be able to do that, and so I was excited to see in her bio that you are working on mentoring young people as well. Yeah, because it's so nice to have somebody that you can you can say, no, it it's possible.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:20

Oh yeah, yes, it's possible. Yeah, yeah. Coming out of high school, you know, I always wanted to be a writer, but then people were just like, What what are you gonna do with that in Guyana? You know, and it never felt no real, it never felt real, it's just that I'm really stubborn and I'm just like, This is the this thing I do really well, by the gosh darn it, I'm gonna put it out there.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:46

Yeah, well, I mean aging myself here, um, coming out of high school, it was uh even though yes, we had the infrastructure of big publishing, but of course, as you know, getting those. was uh e even back the well especially back then uh I don't know it was it was really hard to get a contract back then um yeah and there really was no infrastructure there was nothing for self-publishing there were self-publishing there were no e-readers there were not you know and so people were like well you just need to get a real job because it's you know and like maybe you can write when you retire or what whatnot. So yeah but um then of course self-publishing came along when I was in the 30s and I was like yay dot me now exactly it really has made things possible yeah for us and so it's we do the right wing yeah two ends of the coin right yeah of course yeah and it so it was like hearing from you that like you don't even have the the big publishing infrastructure at all and so really indie is the only way but there's no like shared knowledge I'm so glad you're you're doing this because like I would have killed for something like that when I was at that stage in life to have someone supporting my dreams and it's so amazing that you can do that for others.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:23

I mean I don't know it's kind of kind of I think important you know yeah I mean it's and it just comes from a really natural place to be honest because again it's like you know how you felt and how frustrating it is and if we're gonna get older and if our young people don't know how to kind of build this thing in this space and I mean we're c we're responsible for contributing to it. So if you really love your craft I mean it's the next natural thing to do as far as I'm concerned. Like build it.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:55

Absolutely build it and they will come never understood people who are like I got here and now I'm pulling the ladder up.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:03

Yeah I never don't need that.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:07

That comes from a I I think that comes from a like a a lack in limitation a spirit of lack in limitation they're so afraid that it's gonna be taken from them if they share.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:20

And me it's like no there's enough to go around for everybody and the more we share the more we get you know absolutely I think there's there might also be some insecurity too like you might think oh you know this thing that I have somebody's like you said somebody's gonna take it from me or somebody's gonna be better than me. Yeah for me it's like no I can I can't write like you share Amy I can you guys can't write like me why can't we all write then exactly all right like there's so much space we were talking to an author not too long ago and she said um that some of the readers that she's talked to who are just voracious readers a few hundred books a year.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:03

And she's like I don't publish that many books a year.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:06

Exactly so why wouldn't I write my own it makes no sense. So what are your plans for the rest of the year?

SPEAKER_04 1:09:12

I know you're working on the sequel are you hoping to get that out this year or I am um my my plans kind of are on a pause or like we're waiting to see like what's gonna happen at midyear because there's a couple of plans like life changing plans that might happen. So I'm just waiting until the half of the year to decide you know what I want to do exactly in terms of the programs that I do for my for my writing because I do definitely I'm all for the academics and stuff. I love to study or do something like structured when I'm writing so I'm not sure if that's gonna work out or if I'm just gonna keep pushing leech while finishing the book. But uh either way I do plan on releasing the second book in the probably early next year. It doesn't look like the end of this year. Um and then I also don't want to give myself too too much anxiety because that is very much that is very much me but I'm also um recording my audiobook for Leech um yeah like and the the voice actor for Leech oh my god I want him to voice the whole thing but I doubt whether he'd be able to catch the Ariane the American accent but he's perfect. So yeah that's definitely gonna come out uh sometime this year.

unknown 1:10:37

Cool.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:37

So we'll see how and and other than that it's just enjoying the journey because I really have enjoyed I don't think I would I mean it's not that I'll never do traditional publishing who knows I would never stop myself from that opportunity but I really enjoyed how I brought this book to life and I'm really enjoying this specific journey like it could not have been any other way. It doesn't have to do with sales it's just like the experience is unfolding very nicely I feel just so enriched with every connection that I make like like this connection like the schools the libraries yeah it's just so so wonderful to interact with so I'm I'm I'm I feel like I I'm living my dream that's amazing that's the best feeling in the world it is uh where can readers find you where can they find your book? So the book is on Amazon at the moment so any of the location for Amazon you just search Leech by Jasmine Pain.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:31

And then well locally it's in the book barn in Guyana and um a few cafes but you know you can always reach out to me and I I would happily send you a copy and you have your own you have your own website right jasmine.com well we'll be sure to put it all in the show notes so people can easily just look and find you yeah yeah great well thank you so much for joining us today we love talking to you and we'll have to have you on again sometime you know please do I love to hear when your next book comes out I want to I want you back and don't forget don't forget that reminder just drop it in we'll never forget nudge nudge nudge will not forget I appreciate it thank you thank you so much and we're back yay did you miss us I bet they didn't I bet you didn't it's really like we were just here yeah oh my gosh I love Jasmine she is so amazing I saw her talk at a um uh in a group that I'm in online and I was I knew immediately that I had to have her on the podcast and I'm so glad that you did that because that was this book is you guys you have to read the book maybe do a protection spell first keep yourself safe but yes go read oh it's delightful she's such a great writer and she's such a just such a great person I just really enjoy her her energy and her just hearing about all the stuff that she's doing in Guiana to like further the next generation of writers is so inspiring.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:26

I love that and that like kind of goes to the theme that we've been having all year of community.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:32

Yeah community matriarchy um sharing women get shit done yeah absolutely so speaking of women getting shit done today for our oracle draw I have the Nouveau goddess oracle and this was one of the ones I backed on um Kickstarter but I believe you can get it at designbohemian.com um that's a cool box yeah it's really it's got a um I mean it's just a simple black box and then it has sort of this gold sort of art nouveau ish leaf pattern uh on it which is really cool. So simple but cool very simple but very cool yeah so I am just gonna pull one oh this one is speaking to me so I'm gonna pull this one love it oh my goodness wait for clarity it says and it's got oh look how beautiful it's got a woman from like you know the she's got a little bobbed hairstyle it looks like and she's wearing like that bat costume remember that bat costume from like the 1920s or whatever it was um I do not but she does look a little like Batwoman yes she looks a little bit like that woman and there's the sun behind her and the rays coming down and it says wait for clarity. The wait for clarity card encourages patience and trust in the unfolding process. Sometimes we get right sometimes rushing forward without a clear understanding can lead to confusion or missteps. This card gently reminds you that it's okay to pause to hold off on decisions or actions until the path ahead becomes clear. When this card appears it's a message to embrace the stillness and allow insights to emerge naturally trust that with time the answers you seek will reveal themselves rather than forcing a resolution let yourself rest in the unknown knowing that clarity will come and the time is right. This moment of waiting is a gift giving you the space to gather wisdom and ensure that your next steps are aligned with your true purpose I like that. That's amazing right like and I just feel that kind of goes maybe not so much with the protection theme although it is a little bit about protecting your energy because you're waiting for clarity is about protecting your energy and not expending all this willy-nilly energy on you know in a direction that isn't the right one.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:21

Well and I think it's important to remember that while you are having a pause to make sure you're keeping yourself protected.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:27

Right absolutely and I also think that it really speaks to what's going on right now in the world and in this country that I am in that we feel like there's nothing that we can do right now.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:39

It's so chaotic other than the obvious which is hold your people love your people reach out to your people create your what was the word I'm looking for community thank you create your community all I could think of was coven and yes that also applies do that too do that too but your community and now's a good time if you don't know about what intersectionality looks like to learn a little bit about what that is so that if you are like us a white woman um you don't get stuck on what feminine and uh feminism are without looking at all the ways it intersects right with other places. So yes now's a good time to sit back and and wait and protect your energy so that you can be there for your community but also it's a good time to learn so that you're ready. Amy where can people buy Jasmine's book leech well I'm glad you asked um you can go to our show notes the description and get all the linky links that you might need to Jasmine's website to her books I'll have the resources that we mentioned will be links to that will be down in the show notes. Hop on over to our Instagram page to see the infographic with all the symbols that will um be out the same day this episode comes out and uh we'll have the salt scrub recipe on our YouTube shorts. Yeah that's where you can find all those things but you know what else you can find in the show notes what to find us yes woohoo because you should you should find us follow us on Instagram yes um you can subscribe to us on YouTube or any of the places where you listen to your podcast please subscribe you can join our newsletter like us oh yes do subscribe to the newsletter do it yes I'm trying to get better about sending that out and she will if if she's just waiting for you and you know who I'm looking at right now sign up so that Shaya can send out the newsletter.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:56

Yes please really we're just waiting for you we're just waiting for you absolutely well thank you so much for joining us once again on the pod and we will see you next time yay bye