226. Navigating Widowhood, Sudden Loss, and Brain Fog with Heidi Dunstan

I'm sitting down with Grief Educator Heidi Dunstan, who lost her husband Mike unexpectedly to a heart attack in 2018—the day before her 40th birthday, after she performed CPR trying to save him. We talk about what early grief actually feels like (numbness, brain fog, trauma) and what it took to feel steady again.

In this episode, we cover:
✨ Why the first 3-4 months are often the hardest, and what shifted for Heidi around the 18-month mark
✨ The brain fog of grief, and why it's a real, physical response, not "losing it"
✨ How she chose grief-specialized counseling and why that mattered
✨ Why she traveled to Mexico to avoid the triggers of home, and what that taught her
✨ The shift from saying "I miss you" to "I love you" and how that changed her healing
✨ What friends and family get wrong when someone's grieving, and what to say instead

If you've ever felt like no one knows what to say to you—or you're the one who doesn't know what to say to someone else—this episode is for you.

Connect with Heidi:

• www.heididunstan.ca
• https://www.instagram.com/leanintogrief/
• www.facebook.com/leanintogrief
• https://www.linkedin.com/in/heidi-dunstan/

Learn more about Letters of Light 💌✨ https://lossesbecomegains.com/letters

Transcript

Welcoming Heidi to Life With Grief

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I was completely devastated and I just I'm such an independent human. I don't like using the word strong because I think it's BS. I took off that badge. But I was so independent and yet I needed so much help. Like I was forgetting to eat. I wasn't hungry. I was then then I'd be hungry. Sleep wasn't possible, or I'd be so exhausted that I'd sleep for hours and hours and hours, and then I'd be awake for days and days and days. Your heart obvious obviously knows they're gone, but your brain plays this trick on itself, like they're on vacation or they're away from work, and then at the three, four-month mark, you realize that they're not coming home. I remember just wailing and going, I sh like, I should be getting better. And I I know anybody in the grief cycle knows that the should word is a big one. Like, wow, I should it should be done by now.

SPEAKER_02 0:56

Welcome to the Life with Grief podcast. I'm your host, grief and soul purpose coach, and fellow griever, Tara Ocardo. Heidi, welcome to the Life with Grief podcast. I'm so thrilled to chat with you today when we first got in contact. I was just telling you before we uh started officially recording, too, that there was just so many kind of similarities and aspects of your work and uh sort of navigating life with grief that I really resonated with. And your work just seems so inspiring. So I'm very excited to hear more of that today. But you have suffered a tremendous loss, one that I know many listeners here have also perhaps dealt with in their own way. But as I always like to say, even if we don't lose the quote unquote same person on paper, if you will, I think there's so many, you know this as a fellow grief educator. There's so many aspects to navigating life with grief and coping with grief that I think a lot of us can relate to and a lot of similar, just general feelings around it. So I'm just so excited to bring more attention to to that piece of it, but also just welcome you to share your story with us today. So thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

Awesome. Thanks so much for having me. It's an honor to be here.

Losing Her Husband Suddenly

SPEAKER_01 2:10

It truly is. And it it the the the topic always is hard, right? Because we come together in grief and it means that we've lost something significant. And my story is similar to many of like you, as well as the other listeners, is I lost my husband unexpectedly in 2018 to a heart attack. And as I navigated grief, I found that I had a lot of friends and family who said things that missed the mark or they went completely quiet. And I found that I was I like he died the the day before my 40th birthday. And so, where does a 40-year-old woman go? She gravitates to Facebook groups and and I started connecting with other widows and young widows and realizing that their story was a lot like mine, that they had friends and family who just said things that missed the mark. And I was like, this isn't because our people are malice or terrible, it's because they really have never been taught what to say. And in doing so, it means that we end up losing those relationships and we also lose the places and spaces where we get to talk about our person and carry on the legacy. And to me, that's tragic. And so, like you, I became a certified grief educator with the intent of actually not helping grievers inadvertently. Like I help them because I help them go, that really did sting, and I didn't know why. But I really teach people what to say and not say to somebody who's grieving so we don't lose the legacies of those we've lost. So that we get to pass the torch on and give people the confidence to be able to lean into grief and be able to support those when they need it the most.

SPEAKER_02 3:45

That's so beautiful. Oh my gosh. And this is such a hot topic, I think. And this is gonna help so many people. I'm always so excited too. Excited is maybe the wrong, strong word, but I'm I'm looking forward to exploring the what not to say is because I think a lot of people listening to this podcast, right, are are in the seat of the griever and have probably had some of these less than desirable things said to them. So, you know, of course, I hope this episode reaches supporters and and other people as well. But I definitely want to ask you here in a second. Oh I want to rewind a bit, but I will definitely want to ask you in a second, you know, just like what we as the griever can do to, you know, cope with comments like that, right? And not completely lose our mind and want to just never go outdoors again. So, but before we get there, first of all, what was your husband's name? I was just wanna his name was Mike. Mike.

SPEAKER_01 4:40

And he was just the best.

SPEAKER_02 4:42

Yeah, can you just tell me like a little bit about him?

SPEAKER_01 4:44

I love to just so he was um a 30-year fire veteran, a general contractor. Uh he was 24 years older than me, but he was kind of the kid in the relationship. He loved children, he loved to play, and he gave the best hugs in the world. Like he just those he was one of those huggers that when you got one time stood still.

unknown 5:05

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

Oh gosh, that could make me cry. Oh my god. My dad was so similar. And that just it reminds me of my dad's hug. I mean, don't get me wrong, my mom gave great hugs too. But my dad, they were such bear hugs, and so like he hugged me so tight sometimes I would almost start like whiting out because I'm like, oh my god, dad, you're just like squeezing me. You don't know your own strength. But it's just what we wouldn't give for one of those now, right? Like it's uh it's just those things we have to live with the rest of our lives. So just take me back a little bit to those first, you know, days, weeks, months. Like, can you just walk us through a little bit? Because, you know, depending on where someone is listening to this podcast and those earlier days, maybe a little bit further along, but just I always like to ask guests like it's a big question, but like, what did you do? How did you cope? Like, what did kind of moving through those that first year, I guess, if you will, not to put a time frame on it, but you know what I mean?

Trauma And First Months

SPEAKER_01 6:03

Yeah. So to begin with, because it was unexpected and I was with him, so I did CPR, like I was I was a part of that whole process. Um, it was there was a lot, and it was a shock, and there was trauma involved, and and then I I had like I just found out that morning that he was was planning a 40-person surprise birthday party for me. Oh, and so here we are, like having to cancel a party and now gather as a family to one, my mom was like, We still got to honor your birthday because we could have lost you that day because we were both in a vehicle right before. And two, we we had to honor him and then start planning a service. And it was all during the holidays because it was two days after Christmas, and his birthday is January 6th, so all my hard days were like, I mean like you go through all your I went through all my firsts in the 12 in 12 days, like it was and I was completely numb. And I I live in Canada at that time in the winter time. I live in Canada. Now I choose to live in Mexico where it's a lot warmer. But it was like minus bajillion, and I was standing outside of the funeral home in a sweater, and they're like, Are you cold? And I I physically couldn't feel the cold, like I was so numb. And I did, I thought I was actually doing all right, but friends were like, Hey Heidi, like you would start saying a sentence and then you would just trail off. And then another friend she had told me she's like, she came she came by to drop off food, and she was like, Heidi, you were there and you were talking to me, but there was nothing in your eyes, like you were just so broken, and I was I was completely devastated, and I just I'm such an independent human. I don't like using the word strong because I think it's BS. I took off that badge, but I was so independent, and yet I needed so much help. Like I was forgetting to eat, I wasn't hungry, I was then I'd be hungry, sleep wasn't possible, or I'd be so exhausted that I'd sleep for hours and hours and hours, and then I'd be awake for days and days and days. It was just like this, it was like a bad roller coaster ride that I couldn't get off. And as time went on, I thought I was getting better. And if anybody's a widow, they know that the three-month mark or ish is you tend to move backwards. It's actually when I I the way I describe it is it's almost like your brain and your heart actually have a conversation. And in your heart obvious obviously knows they're gone, but your brain plays this trick on itself like they're on vacation or they're away from work, and then at the three, four-month mark, you realize that they're not coming home. And it's hard. Like, I remember just wailing and going, I sh like I should be getting better. And I I know anybody in the grief cycle knows that the should word is a big one, like, I should it should be done by now. Yeah, yeah, and and I just I had to navigate it, and it was interesting because as I spent more time, as I found out I had way more friends who were widows that I didn't really know that I had lost spouses early, or that they just didn't talk about. And many of them were like, How was your three-month mark? It like it was almost like it was just part of the conversation. I would say that I started getting my feet back under me at about 18 months.

SPEAKER_03 9:34

Okay.

NavigatingBrain Fog

SPEAKER_01 9:35

The brain fog was huge. You know, there was one day I went downstairs to get in the garage to go to a meeting, and I realized it was thankfully it was cold out. I wasn't wearing pants. Like I the brain fog was so big that I wasn't wearing pants. I lost 30 pounds because I couldn't cook things on the on the stove because my brain fog things would burn. Um, I had to replace car keys. I put them in the dishwasher because you know that's where your car keys live.

SPEAKER_00 10:02

Of course.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

Weird things like that, right? Like, and I wish I could say that those examples are never are new, but they're not. If you're grieving, you know that you've done some of that. Like, I found mail in the freezer. Like, I'm like, huh, I didn't know I had to pay my visa in the freezer. Yeah, like yeah, you know, my plants all died. My onions and my lazy Susan, they flourished because they got left there.

SPEAKER_00 10:28

Like I opened the cupboard like in April, and I was like, oh, the only plant that's alive is in the dark.

SPEAKER_02 10:34

Isn't that wow? If that is not a a metaphor of some kind, I don't know, something to do with that flourishing in the dark. Wow, that's powerful.

SPEAKER_01 10:44

Um totally right. And so my god, so really I had to just I just had to navigate the emotions. I had to, I had to get help. I did, yeah, I tried to see a counselor, a general counselor, that that did not serve me. Um, she was like, you're doing everything right. I don't, I can't help you. I always encourage people to see somebody who is specialized in grief.

SPEAKER_02 11:06

Thank you for saying that. I it it's crazy how often I hear people have like tried therapy, gone to therapy. I'm a big proponent of therapy for sure. I I went for a few months after, in and around the time my dad died, it was very helpful. But I've I'm not a therapist, so I don't want to like speak out of turn, but I from what I've gathered, very minimal training around grief and bereavement specifically, like unless someone is really specialized in that, I've just heard that there could be a lot to be desired, and I think it's a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01 11:40

Definitely they often give you the platitudes. Yes. They give you a lot of the things that you shouldn't say. And actually, uh Megan Devine, who wrote yes, I love her. I mean, she was a therapist.

SPEAKER_03 11:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

And then she realized that she said some things because she wasn't trained in that space until she experienced loss. Yeah. And when you experience loss, your lens changes. Your the way you look at life changes. The way like you realize, oh, that's stong, I'm never gonna say that to somebody.

SPEAKER_03 12:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:14

And you realize that life changes that fast. And so you look at how you live differently and who you where you spend your time. Because time is we don't get to choose how much we have.

SPEAKER_02 12:29

Yeah, it's incredibly precious. Oh my gosh, you just had so many powerful and relatable things here, even just from first of all, just thank you for naming so much of that. The green fog, the intensity of how bad it was, because I I will get people that message me. I recently did an episode on that too, and just like there's like the concentration and lack of focus. So, like, you know, if you're trying to work, or actually, what I've heard is like from people is like, I can only kind of focus and concentrate at work, but like in my home life, I'm a wreck, right? And I think it's like, I don't know what that is. Again, not a therapist, not like a psychologist, but there must be something about that where our brain can turn it on and do what it needs to do in certain situations, maybe not.

SPEAKER_01 13:09

So we feel safe to be vulnerable, right?

SPEAKER_02 13:11

Versus at home or whatever. So there's that, but also just the the numbness that you felt in the beginning, but also the anguish and just the wailing, right? Like I, oh, so many of the things that you mentioned are things I experienced in my own way as well. Like I was saying, the beginning, right? We don't have to lose the same person to go through some of these very similar things. So that is that is so profound. Thank you for for naming all of that. And mentioning too that you around it sounds like the 18-month mark, which I know this is so different for everybody, and there's never any timelines and all the things. Can you just talk to me a little bit about that? Like, do you do you kind of just like it felt a natural sort of fog lifting a little bit and just we're we're just getting kind of reacclimated to life, you would say? Or that's kind of how

When The Fog Lifts

SPEAKER_02 14:00

it felt for me. I got I kind of was just like, I guess I'm just kind of getting used to this now. It's it's hard to kind of put your finger on sometimes, but yeah, I'm gonna back it up a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 14:07

I people always say, well, like you got all your first right away, so it should have been easier, right? I love the should word. Um we'll talk about it again later, I'm sure. But I will I'll I'll tell you that this the year after is almost harder. And the way I kind of relate it is it's kind of like going to the dentist and getting dental work done. And the first year is you're frozen.

SPEAKER_03 14:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:36

Like from the dentist. And then you know when the freezing comes out at the dentist, it actually starts to hurt. After that first year, that's when you start realizing they're not coming to the wedding with you, that there was that restaurant you both wanted to go to, or that was your favorite restaurant, or they're not gonna go to attend that graduation, or all the places where you they are supposed to be, and you really feel them, and it's it's intense, and and I think that like you can probably relate is when somebody first passes, it's like grief is like this massive boulder, and it's awkward and it's heavy, and it's hard to hold. And I think as time passes, and I don't like I I'll tell you, you don't get to tell somebody time heals all wounds, that's BS2. Okay, but I do say that pieces of it fall off because you move through the emotions. Some of it you actually start to just distance yourself, and some of it you actually learn how to manage. Yeah, you learn how to manage when you see their Oreos that you don't get like my husband drank a gallon of milk every three days. I don't drink milk. I could tell you that walking by the milk aisle made me cry a lot of times, and now it doesn't, right? And so we find these places where it it activates us in the moment, and as time passes, we become accustomed or we get prepared for, you know, I knew for a first little while, I don't know what the music what playlists they get at grocery stores, but the songs would always make me cry. So I'd actually go grocery shopping with headphones in because I was like, I can't cry. I need growth fluid.

SPEAKER_02 16:25

That's that's actually a great idea, to be honest.

SPEAKER_01 16:28

Yeah, yeah. I had to navigate lists and all that stuff, but I think your question was, Oh, I lost it actually.

SPEAKER_02 16:34

Oh, yeah, just kind of what well, you actually kind of already answered a lot of it in a way, like just that that 18-month mark in terms of like foglifting coming out of it, so to speak.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

I that's very I use that term loosely, but yeah, just kind of it just shifted. And and when I talk to other grievers, that's what they often say too. It just there is something that it just shifted.

SPEAKER_00 16:55

I totally agree.

SPEAKER_01 16:56

And it was like I always say we have flag moments in our life, like when you were 16 and you got your driver's license, when you graduated high school, when you, you know, went to university, when you s graduated university, all got your first job, whatever it is. We have these flag moments in our lives. And I think that lots of times some people get right back into life after loss, then that's how they they navigate it, because Greece's individuals are fingerprint. We don't get to judge how they navigate it. Um, but for me, I needed that year, I needed that 18 months to kind of really be in the muck. I kind of called it zombie time, and I allowed myself to feel everything and do what I needed to do. And I mean, we also know that the systems that we have to deal with with government and paperwork and all the things, right? Take time.

unknown 17:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:45

And that's if it's just a death, if there's a crime or if there's legalities on top of that, it can be longer. So it can take longer. But I I don't know, I just I started getting more flag moments at that year mark where I I did this and I did that. And all of a sudden, I'm starting to get my life and new memories. And I made some conscious choices, like my year, the year after Mike passed, I opted to not be at home and I opted to come to Mexico at a place where we had no memories together. He'd never been here with me. Yeah, he'd never been here, period. And I really just allowed myself to navigate the emotions that I needed to without being activated by everything else.

SPEAKER_03 18:34

Yes, that's beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

Yeah, so I think that we like people get to do what's right for them. Some people are like, I need to sit and watch all the videos and the the pictures and the the music, and they need to really feel it. Whereas I was like, I got enough feelings, I need to pull out the boulder's still heavy.

SPEAKER_02 18:55

Yeah. Um yeah, you're like, I need a break, I need to set this down for a minute. Yeah. Love that you did that in Mexico, by the way.

SPEAKER_01 19:01

That's a good way to do it. But I think like for me, my boulder isn't as big anymore. I physically have been able to learn ways to manage my boulder, and now I just see it as a rock, and I just put my rock down. Oh, here it is. Now I just carry my rock. Oh, I love that. That's a beautiful rock, too, for those who are not watching on video.

unknown 19:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:23

And so I get to hold it in my pocket. And sometimes that rock can be very heavy because some days they grief will kick in. It could be an anniversary, or it could be just, you know, I wish they were here. Wish you yeah. And that grief can be just as heavy as it was the day that he died. Um, and but I at least know now that I have the capacity to put it down or the capacity to hold his love rather than hold the loss.

SPEAKER_02 19:54

Yes. Oh my gosh, that is so powerful. I I love that. I love that whole analogy, I guess, if you will. And I I've heard that many times before as well. But the I we can never hear it enough. And I I there's always new people that are getting exposed to that sort of mentality around it. And I I think it's it's it's accurate, you know, in in a way. And you briefly mentioned that you now sort of have, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you know, some coping tools, some like ways to to carry it and things like that. Is there just maybe one or two things you could share specifically, you know, like for some people it was journaling or meditating or you know, whatever? And even if it's not like that kind of stereotypical self-care, like is there anything that has been especially impactful for you that maybe someone could walk away with here today?

SPEAKER_01 20:44

One that really stands out, and I still use it one, actually, I'll give you two. One is gratitude, which sounds really funny in grief, um, because nobody's ever grateful they died, but I am grateful I had him.

SPEAKER_03 20:57

Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

And so in the days when it was really dark and really heavy, I had to lean into why I was grateful I had him. And I leaned into, and I think social media helps us with this. Like, there was a lot of posts, like he was well loved by so many others, and so I leaned into how many others love him as well, and I really just held into that. I am not somebody who there are some people as they move through grief, they're like, I love him the most. He was my husband. I tend not, I don't see that that doesn't serve me, and I really honor the fact that so many people love him, that we all lost him, and that I get to see how they loved him because that how they loved him is different than how I loved him, and there's a real beauty in that. So, gratitude was a big one, and then I still have to practice this one. I'm seven years out, is instead of saying how much I miss. Him, I just talk about how much I love him and I make I keep my love present.

SPEAKER_03 22:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

Oh how many times do we say I miss them? I miss them. Like when I say goodnight to him every night because I still do. I used to say, I love you, babe, I miss you. And now I just say I love you, I love you.

SPEAKER_02 22:17

Oh, that's that's so amazing. Oh my gosh, and what what a mindset shift, though.

SPEAKER_01 22:22

You know, oddly enough was my last words to him.

SPEAKER_02 22:25

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 22:26

Because I used to say to him, hey babe, drive I love you, drive safe. And he would, he was a fireman. So he's like, I always drive safe. And he literally had just parked the vehicle in our driveway and he was moving another vehicle. So he was just moving it like 50, 60 feet. I was like, drive safe, love you, drive safe. And he was like, I'm just going 60 feet. And I was like, because I can't say I love you, I love you. And now he makes me say, I love you, I love you, everything.

SPEAKER_02 22:49

Oh my gosh. Oh, hi Dee Dee. That's amazing. What a powerful message for anyone listening here today. And it's of course, it's not that we can't say I miss you, but like that, but just that, I just want to call out that subtle shift. Do you know what I mean? We're shifting from just everyone hear me out as I'm saying this. We're kind of shifting from the lack and what we no longer have and to to abundance, to an abundance of love, to an abundance of gratitude, to an abundance of how lucky am I that they were in my life at all, uh, even if for a limited time. And I always want to like follow that up with, you know, I understand that doesn't make the pain of their absence and not having their presence in our life, it doesn't make that easier necessarily. It doesn't make it less painful, again, especially depending where you are in your grief journey. But but there is something to that. And the gratitude piece was was definitely big for me as well. I had started I created my own journal now, but I had originally started with this other journal. And it was, you know, just like a five-minute thing. And, you know, okay, what are three things you're grateful for today? Sometimes I didn't have the three things, but I made myself dig really deep. And even if it was just, I use this example a lot, but like my morning coffee or whatever it was that sunlight coming through the door and and warming me up. That's it. Because how lucky am I to still be here and alive to feel that sunlight? What's the alternative? I'm not here, you know? And I'm like, yeah, I'm grateful I'm still here. I'm not grateful for this pain right now. But you know, it's it's those, I would say it's like the micro moments, those little things. They really it's it's underrated how much those can impact us sometimes. And sometimes it's it's quite subconscious, right? And we sort of have to hear conversations like this that might make us wince a little bit or might be a little cringy to hear, depending where we are with our grief, but it's it's important, it's very important to recognize.

SPEAKER_01 24:55

I agree, and I find that when you actually re- when I define, I always say grief is love. And when you witness deep grief, it's because you're witnessing deep love. And so when you acknowledge that it is love, it gives you permission to feel the pain.

SPEAKER_03 25:12

Yeah.

unknown 25:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

Because you know what? Like it wouldn't hurt if you didn't love them.

SPEAKER_02 25:18

Yep, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

And so when all of a sudden I say I love you, I want to focus on the love because when I do that, it helps to soothe the miss that I miss them. And the the missing them is real. I'm not it's not that I'm pretending that I don't miss them. It's the fact that I'm learning how to love them in a new way.

SPEAKER_03 25:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 25:42

Yeah, well said. And I there's definitely something about continued bonds and keeping that alive. And I've uh read a lot about that and learned a lot about that,

Choosing Gratitude Daily

SPEAKER_02 25:51

and that's how I choose to see it with my parents now too. And yes, it sure, I would love for them to be here in person, but I think there's also a part of me that's like factually, like the analytical side of my brain is like, that's not your reality. That's not your reality anymore, right? My brain has rewired itself now to the point where it's like like factually, I know that I can still be sad about it, but I could kind of sit and wallow in that still, or I could, and it is it is a choice, it is a little bit of an act of choosing to welcome in the gratitude and welcome in that love. And it's there, but it's I get I I hear we're I get clients like this all the time, right? They're just they're not there yet.

SPEAKER_01 26:33

I I don't love the word letting people think that they're stuck because it's not our process. And you know, it took me nine months to empty the closet of Mike's clothes, and it was at about the nine-month mark that I was like, how is keeping his underwear bringing me joy? Like, be realistic, Heidi. Like, come on.

SPEAKER_00 26:54

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 26:55

Um now I I had to do it in micro, like I it was like I did a couple drawers and and then I was like, okay, I've had enough.

SPEAKER_04 27:02

Same.

SPEAKER_01 27:03

And I go back to it, right? It was I had to do it in pieces, but I wasn't stuck. I just I needed time.

SPEAKER_02 27:10

You just weren't there. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

I needed to feel it. I needed to feel okay. Like I always say, you know, if you get that little taste of vomit in your mouth, you know you're not ready.

SPEAKER_02 27:19

Like, yeah, you can feel it. I mean, in your body, you can truly, I mean, it's it's a beautiful, I talked about this a lot. It's a really empowering check-in with yourself because we get very disconnected from our body and just all the things as we're uh going through a loss. And so I think that was something that I also had to go through with both parents. And I just I like looked at a shirt shirt and I was like, does this spark joy for me? Would this have sparked joy for them if they were still here? Was this something that they even wore? Or is this just like a really random t-shirt that could go to a really good home if I donated it, right? You know, and it's just literally one by one. So that's a perfect example, actually. So thank you for naming that. I definitely want to move to the the what not to say is here. But again, just knowing where this audience is, I would love to kind of talk about it in the through the lens of how we can like regulate ourselves, if you will, like how we can move through really difficult, hurtful, insensitive comments, not even 99% of the time, not even coming from anywhere malicious. It's just you don't know what you don't know. I think a lot of the time, right? I think a lot of us have been on that pre-large.

SPEAKER_01 28:33

Let's let's tee it

How Judgment Makes Grief Sting

SPEAKER_01 28:34

up a little bit. So, one of the reasons why it always stings is because we feel like we're being judged. Okay. And I truly believe that grief is uh judgment is grief's kryptonite, right? And I want you to think about have you ever watched America's Got Talent when people get the golden buzzer? Okay, when they get the golden buzzer, do they all celebrate the same? No. Do we judge how they navigate that when we celebrate alongside them? And yet when somebody goes through pain, we we don't honor them and honor alongside them, we judge them. Why are they crying so much? Why aren't they crying so much? Why are they still wearing their wedding ring? Why do they still have the crib up in the bedroom? Like all of the things, right? Instead of just saying, Hey, I see this is hard right now.

SPEAKER_03 29:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:25

And I don't have words to fix it. But you're important to me, and I'd like to walk walk with you.

SPEAKER_03 29:33

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:35

But instead, we often feel like I'm supposed to be eating, I'm supposed to be doing all these things, I'm supposed to be on their timeline. I mean, I heard it, and and and we come by it honestly. Like I I met a woman not long after Mike died who she was 27 or 28 years old. Her husband died in a workplace accident. They had young children, and her doctor at the nine-month mark said to her, Out of all my patients, you take the prize in grieving the hardest. And that comes from somebody who's trained in death. Interesting. Yeah. So here are us, you know, normal folk, you know, and we're supposed to just pick it up. And grief is so hard because it's as individuals our fingerprint, and how you were as a griever today may look very different than how you were as a griever tomorrow. Yeah. And you don't even realize that you're different. And so we have to, I always say it's the G word. We just have to have a lot of grace.

SPEAKER_03 30:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:39

We gotta have the great grace for the people in our lives, and the people in our lives have to have a lot of grace for us. And it's such a big word I have it tattooed on my wrist because it I need it a lot. Because in the world that we live in, we compare loss. Definitely. We don't mean to.

SPEAKER_04 30:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:54

But after Mike died, I heard about goldfish dying. I had a woman say, I understand grief. I went through divorce. Like, nope, no, no, that's not the same. Yeah. You know, I I had a friend recently phone me and say, Hey, my husband almost had a widow maker. I need to talk to you. My God. Oh no, that that that is not the right thing to say to somebody who had has lost a spouse to a heart attack. It's very insensitive. And so a lot of grace is required on both sides. And sometimes we actually have to let people know, hey, that's stung. I know you didn't mean it that way. Yeah. Because when they do say things, you have to be grateful for the fact that they had the courage to, because we also have lots of friends who say nothing. And that silence is deafening.

SPEAKER_03 31:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 31:52

And those are the relationships that do fade away because we're like, you didn't show up for me when I needed it the most. Definitely.

unknown 32:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:00

And you and you've had experience with that as well, from what I've understood about yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:05

Yeah. And so I I really as a griever, you have to give grace. Sometimes you have to take care of yourself and be like, Kate, if you can't be here and you're gonna be silent, then that's that's telling. Like the the relationship is done. Other times it could be like I had friends who I didn't think I thought the people who were gonna show up and didn't, I didn't anticipate the angels who did show up that I didn't know would.

SPEAKER_02 32:36

Yes, me too.

unknown 32:39

Right?

SPEAKER_02 32:39

I feel like all of us have at least one person that surprised us a little bit, you know, co-workers or somebody. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 32:46

You know, it can come from the most unexpected places, but yeah, and so honor that and remember that you get to be that angel for somebody at some time.

SPEAKER_03 32:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 32:59

You don't have to do it all the time, you know. But know that, you know, like I mean Mike passed away on our on our driveway, so it was a you know, my friends were there, like people witnessed it. One of my best friends, he came over the next day with the Costco size case of really good Kleenex, knowing full well that I'm a very big sprinkler. I cry a lot. Now, some people would think that that's insensitive, that you're supposed to come with a casserole or a lasagna and flowers. We had a good laugh. Yeah, but I could have been in a really different place and been like, that's an insensitive gift. Um and so be as a griever, be cognizant of that, you know. People aren't showing like and I loved the gift. I'll be honest, I thought it was the best gift ever. It was useful, it made me I I needed that change of state.

SPEAKER_02 33:53

A little dark humor almost in a way.

SPEAKER_01 33:55

Yeah, yeah. Like yeah, and and so I just be graceful, be graceful with yourself, don't allow your boundaries to be broken, and be honest with the people that you truly love that say the stupid stuff. Tell them it stings. Yeah, yeah, tell and tell them why, and just be like, hey, can you can we not do that again? Because that hurts, and this is why, because they don't do it intentionally, right? Nobody comes to you watching you grieve to go, let's make it worse, of course.

SPEAKER_02 34:28

Yeah, I always say too, you know, that's that's been very eye-opening for me, is I I've done a lot of like introspection and but like looking at people in my life who said again some just very questionable things. And I had to take a step back and I was like, that's really interesting. They're from a different time, they were raised by different parents than I were, right? They were raised to either feel or not feel, or express or not express, or whatever grief or loss very differently than I might be accustomed to. And so I for anyone here who's in the very, very early days of grief, like I I could not agree with you more. The giving grace thing definitely. In those first like weeks, maybe even like two, three months, I don't know. I was, I was, I'll be the first to admit, I was in no place to give grace. I was like, no one knows this loss like I do, and I'm the only daughter of Greg and Lori Jordan. And I and and absolutely there's something very sacred to being, you know, the one and only of that person. But I love so much what you said even earlier in the conversation that like what a gift it is to see how other people loved our person, and you know, to that's an incredible mindset, and I love that too. And so, yeah, it it took me a minute to to take that step back and be like, oh, this actually isn't it's not about you, Tara. Like it this isn't really about me. It's like that that thought, that comment, that's that's coming from somewhere. And so I think I'll just speak for me personally. I almost think I had to like disassociate that a little bit and like just again, not take it kind of so personally. It's like, okay, this is like this is bigger than me, you know. And I but I kind of felt like when I did that, I was able to like just breathe a little easier and take a step back and give the grace. But that took a minute. It took a minute to find. I didn't, I didn't have it immediately, but but that is important. But I I think in recognizing that it frees us a little, you know, because we I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 36:33

I think sometimes that we end up with those painful points that we end up focusing on them, which means that we don't have to deal with our grief. And I mean, there were six of us that all hung out together, and I didn't hear from the other four after his funeral.

SPEAKER_03 36:50

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 36:50

And I grieved that deeply for a few months, and it wasn't until a couple of years later, and now keep in mind that he died right before COVID, so that kind of changes your grief spin as well. I also realized that them seeing me was a reminder to them that he was gone.

SPEAKER_03 37:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:12

And so I activated their grief.

SPEAKER_02 37:16

We never sometimes think about that, do we?

unknown 37:19

No.

SPEAKER_02 37:20

That's that's hard. That's hard to put ourselves in the other person. She's sometimes like that.

SPEAKER_01 37:25

Yeah. And so, and you can't, like, like you said, you know, it took a minute to get there, but I can tell you it, and it took me months, years really, to get there. But that's where my grief, my grace is. Now, it's still relationships that I have chosen not to maintain or reach out to, but it's enough for me to go, I I don't need to be angry about it anymore. Yeah, but it's not serving me, it's not serving them.

Why Comparing Pain Doesn’t Help

SPEAKER_01 37:56

Yeah, um, they miss him, I'm sure, just as much as I do. Yeah, because he was important to them. Because our pain is our pain. We don't get to like my pain is not any bigger or smaller than anybody else's, because it's your pain.

SPEAKER_04 38:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:14

We don't uh like we think we we think we get to compare pain, but we it doesn't serve us. Right. Right. Oh, it can't hurt as much for me because you're his widow. No, it hurts for you because he was important to you.

SPEAKER_02 38:28

Yeah, and you each had your own special relationship with him. Absolutely. Yeah, like how can I compare my grandmother's grief of losing her daughter to me as that's my mom and daughter, you know what I mean? Yeah, two totally different worlds, but we can come together over that shared love of my mom, you know.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

And it's it is way easier to come together than to try to compare.

SPEAKER_02 38:50

Yeah. Absolutely. I have a funny sort of question for you, and I I have a feeling I know what you're gonna say, but there is with the with the rise of AI and Chat GPT and things, I was just so curious to get your thoughts on this. I had a client recently who the friend very clearly used Chat GPT to come up with a response to basically my client really sharing her heart and thoughts and just you know, her try trying to get this friend to understand her and her grief, right? This friend has never lost the person that she lost. Hard, hard to understand until and unless you've gone through it, right? So this friend sent her a response. My client was like, This is so clearly Chat GPT, and she actually like called her out and she she admitted to using Chat GPT to help her form a response. And my client was very upset about that. And my I I know I can share my reaction in a moment, but I just wanted to get your two cents on that because I'm sure she's not alone. I'm sure that is not an isolated incident. I think a lot of people could try and maybe lean on top GTP, right? Like they're like, I want to be helpful, I want to try and formulate a response, but I don't really know what to say here, right? Like I think a lot of people will try and over-explain or sort of overdo it instead of just simply saying, I don't have the right thing to say. I wish I did. Nothing can make this better for you. I want to like I just whatever, right? Keeping it kind of short and sweet and just like, I just want to witness you and I'm I'm here to listen, right? And really holding that space comfortably, which is hard to do. I get it. But anyway, what are what's your two cents on the on the chat GPT?

SPEAKER_01 40:35

So you can lean into the fact like you can lean into the fact that, oh, they they couldn't even give me an authentic response, or you could lean into the fact that they knew they didn't and they know that the words matter and that they used a tool to try to support them.

SPEAKER_04 40:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:52

And and go, hey, yeah, thanks for using your bot. You know, I I really, you know, I appreciate the fact that it is uncomfortable in these sticky conversations. I appreciate that you had the courage to see that I I deserved a response and that you maybe that the words mattered and you wanted to make sure it landed well. Thank you for that. But I I have a hard time with it. I really do, I would really love my friend to show up and know that I can give grace as much as you give me.

SPEAKER_03 41:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:24

And so I mean, in the world, I mean, the world of AI is there now. And if that's I mean, I want you to think about when social media came out and people would post that somebody passed, and people stopped sending sympathy cards because they could post sympathies on a social media post.

SPEAKER_03 41:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:46

Right? And people got upset about that too.

unknown 41:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:50

And so know that as we change with time, you just have to be able to set your boundaries, especially like if it's your best friend and you're like, I just need you to show up for me.

unknown 42:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:00

Say that. Say, hey, like, I really appreciate the fact that you know words matter here and you don't have them. But I just need you to be you.

SPEAKER_02 42:08

Yeah. Like, I don't need you to have the perfect thing to say.

SPEAKER_01 42:11

It's actually that feels more authentic to me to know that it's just your presence and it's all like acknowledge, acknowledge the courage that it takes because when somebody is willing to lean into grief, they are they're walking in a landmine. Yes, they don't know what state you're in, yeah, they don't know how you feel. I mean, you know, I mean, sometimes like somebody's dad dies and they're like, I'm so sorry for your loss. And they're like, Oh, my dad was a dink. I didn't like him anyway. And you're like, now what do I say? Right?

SPEAKER_00 42:43

And so they're uncomfortable now.

SPEAKER_01 42:45

Yeah. And so know that we get to we get to give and get grace. And it's okay when it's and and you know, it's those external people that don't matter, you don't need to set the boundaries with. But those people that do matter, don't let it damage relationships. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:07

Well said.

Cutting Off or Communicating

SPEAKER_02 43:08

I think we like you, like you mentioned, like it sounds like there's some relationships that you've you've no longer moved forward with, right? They're no longer, but and I think we we know either when it's like it's it's toxic, right? It's like just not a good relationship. Grief or no grief, right? Like to just cut it, cut it off, cut our losses. But there's, you know, other clients I've had to, I've had because they're relationships, right? They've they've all been right. So much of what you said today, which is why I'm so appreciative of this conversation, because it's again so relatable for so many people, and there's different ends of the spectrum that we're kind of dealing with in terms of like, do I cut them off? Do I not? And I I think a lot of I see this a lot as people are are quick to to cut things off because they're not meeting certain expectations. And that's where some of our work comes in. And it's like, okay, well, hold on just a second. Like, let's really reevaluate like, okay, no, is this genuine, like genuinely a not high Healthy relationship and it's this not good energy exchange anymore because relationships are two-way street. Or is it maybe that you just need a little space right now, or you need to better communicate because people around us are not mind readers, right? Like I I've talked about this with my husband on the podcast before too. And it's we broke up in between my parents dying, and I think that was a big piece of it because he couldn't relate to me, and I could barely communicate what I wanted or needed. How could I expect him to? You know, I could go on and on. But yeah, it it's it's a really difficult part of the ripple effect of a main loss that we we have to work through. And I I I understand I can feel very isolating sometimes, and you know, we just like you just feel like you're kind of losing people left and right. Yeah. So I love that. Grace is like the theme and word of today. I think that's so beautiful. And I always say, like, for anyone here listening, keep all of this in in the back of your mind for later, because I I know some sometimes it's like hard to hear these things, depending where you are. It was for me at one point, which is why I say these things, but I think it's so important. And uh these conversations stick with us and they stay in our subconscious. And I think like when we are ready to, like you were saying earlier, right? I love that mindset. It's not that we're stuck, we're just maybe we're we're getting there, right? We're working through something very heartbreaking, and and we need to just yeah, let ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 45:27

Well, it's it's that piece of the boulder hasn't broken off yet.

SPEAKER_03 45:30

Yeah, yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_01 45:31

Or or it's that I'm I'm now ready for that tool, I'm ready for that mindset. They're not ready, and that's okay. Yeah, and they may never be ready because guess what? That's allowed to. Yeah, and we don't get to tell somebody what it looks like, we don't get to tell them what they should like stop shooting on people.

SPEAKER_02 45:50

Yeah, that came up in a conversation.

Witnessing Grief as Love

SPEAKER_01 45:52

You know, like people will phone me, and like my friends will phone me and they're like, so-and-so lost their husband or so-and-so lost their wife or their whoever, and I need you to fix them, they're broken. And I'm like, they're not broken.

SPEAKER_02 46:02

Never know.

SPEAKER_01 46:03

My job isn't gonna fix them. My job is to teach you. Yes, right, right, because when we can show up with confidence for people in those those early days, weeks, and months of grief, or even when it's a grief moment nine years after they've lost their person because for whatever it is, it's activated it. We get to show up and see them and love them exactly where they're at. That's all they deserve. Yes, yeah, their grief deserves to be witnessed just as much as you got to deserve you, you you were you were able to watch them love their person, you get to des get to watch them grieve their person. It's the same. Grief is love. Yeah, you just don't like the way one looks, right? Yeah, one might be a little less comfortable than the other, I guess, right? But well, one is one is the golden buzzer and the other one is the judgment. And when you put the judgment down, grief becomes magic. Like that is the magic of legacy. That's when we stop asking people how they died and start asking how they lived. That's when we actually start saying, Hey, I want to know more about who is so important to you and why.

SPEAKER_03 47:11

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:13

That's where we get to pass the torch. That's the magic part about grief. That's the magical part of grief, and I love it. It's I'll do it any day of the week.

SPEAKER_02 47:21

Yeah. As we start to close out, just any final you you've already given so much today. So if you if you feel good, no worries, but just any final word of wisdom or piece of advice or tool or tip or just something to keep in mind for someone here listening right now that is just in rightfully in their feels. Anything else you would say to that griever today?

SPEAKER_01 47:47

Give yourself the grace you deserve and know that in the future, when it's time for you to witness somebody grieving, take the step in and lean in and give them the grace that they deserve and love them exactly where they're at.

SPEAKER_02 48:03

Beautiful. I love that. And I feel like that's a ripple effect too, right? That like, yes, we have to sometimes learn that the hard way. But once we do, like you said earlier, it shifts, it shifts everything, it changes the lens in which you see your life if you let it, and we let that in, and then we can pass that on to someone else, and then hopefully they will too, and we'll be in this beautiful world where everyone gives each other grace, hopefully.

SPEAKER_01 48:26

Exactly right. If we were in charge of grief.

SPEAKER_02 48:29

Yes, yeah. Heidi, this was such a wonderful conversation and very empowering and inspiring, and I'm just very grateful to you. Where can everyone find you or or work with you?

SPEAKER_01 48:40

And um check me out at Heidi Dunstan.ca. I'm on socials Facebook, Insta, LinkedIn, TikTok. There's all sorts of places.

SPEAKER_02 48:49

You're you're everywhere. I love it. Okay, well, that will all be linked in the show notes. Thank you again so much for joining today. I appreciate your time. I am sending you a huge thank you for tuning into today's episode, my friend. Be sure to hit that subscribe button if you haven't already, and share this episode or this podcast with someone who could use it too. I'll catch you in the next episode.