Sunny Banana
YouTube Channel: https://youtube.com/@sanibonani-y2g?si=09LymOLYjP7sE3cY
I am a school chaplain and the content is intended to encourage curiosity about Faith and it's impact on day to day life
The Sunny Banana, is a play upon the Zulu greeting, Sanibonani, meaning I see you.
As tech wrenches us from real life, we are not seeing each other. The Greek word 'idea' means to see. It is as if we have lost the idea of what it means to be human; social, communal, relational. The same word, to see, in Old English is 'seon' which has connotations of understanding.
Let's start seeing each other again, listening, respecting, and understanding each other and ourselves. After all, we are people through other people.
Sunny Banana
Thaddeus Patrick | Orthodox Christianity works because it's true
Link to Thaddeus Patrick's business: https://thaddeusthought.com/coaching/
Link to book on Amazon: https://amzn.eu/d/3pS5oow
YouTube Video: https://youtu.be/Cl0hDe6vEMI?si=akYBQvPfWQ6LES8s
What if your suffering actually had profound meaning? In this deeply moving conversation, Orthodox Christian coach Thaddeus shares how discovering the teachings of a humble Serbian monk completely transformed his life, taking him from a place of existential despair to finding purpose in pain and peace amidst turmoil.
Having struggled with debilitating depression and anxiety despite his Protestant theological education, Thaddeus found that the ancient Christian practices preserved in Orthodoxy offered something his modern psychological training couldn't – a spiritual technology for transforming suffering into love. Through simple yet profound practices like expressing gratitude in moments of pain, he experienced a complete mental and spiritual renewal that even his skeptical parents couldn't help but notice.
The conversation explores "holy doubt" – the Orthodox understanding that sincere questioning isn't faithlessness but actually draws us closer to God. Unlike approaches that demand blind belief, authentic Christianity should prove itself through lived experience. Thaddeus likens Orthodox spiritual practices to Mr. Miyagi's "wax on, wax off" in The Karate Kid – actions that initially seem pointless but eventually reveal their transformative power.
At a time when depression, anxiety, and loneliness are reaching epidemic proportions, particularly among young people, this discussion offers a radically different perspective on human suffering. Rather than promising to eliminate pain, Orthodox Christianity provides a framework where suffering becomes meaningful – not just something to endure, but something that can transform us into beings capable of greater love.
Discover why Elder Thaddeus of Vitovnica's book "Our Thoughts Determine Our Lives" is experiencing a revival among seekers from all backgrounds, and how ancient spiritual wisdom might hold the key to addressing our very modern human condition.
Thaddeus, thank you so much for joining me on the Sunny Banana podcast. It's such a pleasure to have you with us today. Can we just start for our viewers out there? You are an Orthodox Christian coach, is that right?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Christian coach. Is that right? Yes, and just for our viewers out there and listeners and so on and so forth, can you tell us a little bit about what that entails and what you do?
Speaker 2:Yeah, part of explaining that is I was raised a Protestant, evangelical, non-denominational Christian, and went through a Bible college program, also got a psychology degree. While I was in that program and by the time I was done, I had some friends who were asking me about Christian history and how come, after getting that degree, I wasn't really taught history, which started to occur to me that was something that I should know and should, it seems like would be part of a Christian education, and at the time I was dealing with a lot of my own mental health struggles with depression, anxiety, all of these different struggles and really struggling existentially with like, why exist, why do anything? What makes people you know want to have a job or live life and continue onwards. And it was a fairly dark experience for me. And I later found out that there were some gut health issues going on too, that a lot of different researchers are discovering that depression is linked with gut health, etc. But it was very much a spiritual problem also, and when I started to look into Christian history I was led to the Eastern Orthodox Church and led to Elder Thaddeus of Vytautas, who wrote a book that you have called Our Thoughts Determine Our Lives, and there. It is Highly recommend anyone who possibly can get their hands on this book. And I started doing some of the things in that book and they started helping me. Things that all my Protestant psychology training and Bible and theology training didn't help me with, that book did.
Speaker 2:And I was in awe because it was this very simple advice a lot of the time from this little Serbian monk, but it turned out it was actually very historical. He might be putting his own little spin on it, but the teachings in there are found in the 15th century, the 9th century, the 4th century and I would argue, are rooted in the scriptures. And when I started doing some of those practices he was talking about, for example, he gives a deeper explanation of why God allows pain and suffering to happen to us in the first place and this is a major focus of my own coaching program I started, it started to make sense to me and then he gave a practice that you could actually do, which the simplest version is every time you're in the moment of pain, whether that's physical pain, emotional pain like social rejection, insecurity, physical pain, emotional pain like social rejection, insecurity Even if it's pain from your own sins and your own faults and your own, you caused it. Even then you can say thank you, god, because this breaks down the barriers in my heart that keep me from a direct encounter with God and keep me from having love and keep me from loving others, and I realized you know what he's saying. If bearing pain means that I can be a transformative power in other people's life, if it can actually lead to peace down the road, a peace that can't be shaken by pain any longer, which is what the Orthodox saints claim, I was like that is something I would be thankful for, and so I can say thank you, even if I don't kind of feel thankful. That is something I would mean it. And as I did this practice, I'll give you one anecdote that really drives it home.
Speaker 2:When I first was exploring Orthodoxy, I was very excitable, very much. This is very common. You get excited about it. You argue with everybody. All your poor Protestant family has to go through it, and mine certainly did. And it was so aversive to them that they invited me to dinner with a family friend who was a lawyer and a state representative, and normally they want me to shut up, but they were letting me talk a lot and letting me talk with him and all of a sudden I realized I was in basically a cult detox, that they were trying to get me out of orthodoxy because I was so crazy and wild about it. And thankfully it did kind of get through to me that this I need to stop talking so much. Um. But a year later and this was I wasn't in the church, I was just doing this stuff that Elder Thaddeus had taught me. But a year later so take that as the context A year later my mom told me me and your dad are so glad you're becoming Orthodox, like we can see how it's changed your mental health. They could see I was more peaceful. I had another friend tell me I remember in Bible college taking care of you. You were a very unstable person, you were kind of known for it and I took care of you and he said now you don't need me anymore and you take care of me. And he was like what happened? I was like read Elder Thaddeus's book, but it changed everything. And that was about 10 years ago and after five years of orthodoxy.
Speaker 2:I was trying different jobs in my life before and after becoming orthodox and I didn't like most of them. My last job about five years ago was working for the government, working for that actual, the same state representative and it paid really well. It was an easy job and I was miserable representative and it paid really well. It was an easy job and I was miserable. And I talked to my priest about it and my priest at the time said, well, I hear you at coffee hour, the fellowship time after the liturgy on Sunday mornings, and he's like I hear you have these conversations.
Speaker 2:You're talking about psychology, you're talking about our spiritual writings. And he said why can't you make that a job? And I was like, well, maybe. I said I'm not. I'm not a licensed counselor, which requires a second degree, and I probably am not going to do any more schooling. I'm not not built for tests and papers and stuff. And I talked to my parents and they're like that's what we want you to do, like you should make this a business. And so I made a website, made business cards. My first clients were my friends and over time, like I started having a more active social media presence and people started talking to me and that's actually probably around the time that that you originally contacted me and we had a phone call was that was very new.
Speaker 2:So it was. It was great because it was a practice conversation for me. But now, five years later, this has become my thing. I have, you know, just my simple coaching practice and I meet with people through mostly video calls, throughout the week, and the gist of it is that my goal is not psychological alleviation that would be the difference between what I do and traditional counseling and therapy, which has a lot of value, and what I do overlaps. But my goal is to dive into the deeper meaning and purpose behind the things that are happening to us, behind why God would let us suffer, and these are heavy questions that can't be treated lightly, can't be treated purely intellectually. There's no intellectual answer to suffering that's going to make you go oh well, I guess it doesn't bother me anymore Like it's the nature and essence of what it is, is almost it's divine.
Speaker 2:Suffering is a terrible divine power, and so my goal is to help people find purpose in it, find actual practical approaches to it, and to actually understand their whole life and how it, how it connects together, and not just something like you know, oh, it worked out for good. You know, I can help someone else who's suffering. I didn't like that when I was suffering. So I want deeper, even more profound answers than that myself, and that's the kind of thing that I want deeper, even more profound answers than that myself, and that's the kind of thing that I'm I'm talking about with people in my coaching. But it all does tie into orthodoxy.
Speaker 2:I have people who are Protestant and Catholic and once in a while, just some kind of spiritual seeker will come chat with me and we have good conversations. But I do think that the transformative power of suffering into making us beings who bear love in a mystical and divine way Um, that's the purpose of my coaching and, as a common side effect, as it was for me, it often does alleviate mental health issues. So a lot of people that come to me are coming to me with mental health issues, and they they do feel that they get addressed, and yet that's not my goal, my goal is not to, you know, make you, you know, less depressed, even though that would be wonderful, that would be beautiful. So, yeah, that's. I would say, that's the gist of what I do.
Speaker 1:Brilliant. Yeah, I remember when I reached out to you in about 2020 or 2021, I was so interested in the crossover between psychology and religion, you know, and I was finding so many things that resonated with sort of the Desert Fathers saying what modern psychologists would say and counselling and so on and forth, and I was reading sort of James Hillman, these guys, ian McGilchrist I don't know if you know about Ian McGilchrist he's made this incredible book about the right and the left hemisphere of the brain and how they work, and it's just such a beautiful thing to delve into and I want to hear more. But one thing I'd like our viewers to hear about is your name wasn't always Thaddeus, was it? So it's an interesting thing for me and perhaps something quite interesting for modern viewers is that you became Thaddeus, patrick, patrick, or your full name, Shia Thaddeus, patrick, is that right? But you can explain this how do you? How do you become? How do you become Thaddeus now?
Speaker 2:Yeah, my legal name is Shea, which is an Irish name. I'm not Irish, my mom just read the name and liked it and there it was. But there's a tradition of giving people new names. This happens in the Old Testament, this happens in the New Testament. Christ gives some of his apostles new names, and so the Orthodox tradition is either that you would be born with a given patron saint, some saint that you're given this personal connection with and obviously I can connect with any saint Some saints, for a person will become more prominent than their patron saint in their life, but they are understood as the friends of Christ.
Speaker 2:They are understood as, as I always say, if you connect to someone and maybe you're dating them and you don't want to know any of the members of their family, that would be very strange.
Speaker 2:Like when you love someone, you you connect to their whole family, and it is the same with Christ we connect to his whole family, and so sometimes there's those people that you connect to their whole family, and it is the same with Christ we connect to his whole family, and so sometimes there's those people that you connect to a little more than others and your patron saint is basically that, and so that's the two things going on with the new name is this mentorship of a particular saint in your life, combined with the fact that human beings, when we want transformation, when there's something inside of us that we want to change and we want to be different inside of us, we have to manifest that in the world in some way. This is why, when we're going through pain, we have to process it. We have to speak or journal or make a song or make a painting. It has to come out of us. The spiritual has to come out in the physical world in some way.
Speaker 2:But likewise, you can also start outside with something physical and help generate an internal change, and so the new name performs that role. Psychologically and spiritually, it helps you recognize that the way I lived before is not the way I'm going to live anymore. I'm living in such a different way that it almost becomes a new identity, but at the same time I don't feel like I'm less my past self. I feel more my true self. I feel more like the self that I was intended by God to be, which it should be a a peaceful self, a loving self, a joyful self.
Speaker 1:So, yes, I spoke to Aidan Hart before before you and he we spoke about. For him, religion was something that made you more human, you know, or well, connecting with God and your relationship with God, you actually become more you and like more you that you've ever been. So I like that and you say the spiritual has to come out. We can't sidestep around the fact that in 2025, teenagers and young people the stats are quite dark to look at in terms of loneliness and depression. And, you know, in an age where we're so connected but not, do you think that, although you say you don't want to, your goal is not to make people less depressed, but do you think, would you say, the problem is a spiritual problem for people? So loneliness and depression is a spiritual problem for people. So loneliness and depression is a spiritual problem. It's not something bound in their genetic makeup or physical. It's a spiritual problem that we're all facing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think it very much is, and I would say a key part of that is you know some people, they'll dive into a career, they'll dive into a romantic relationship. They'll find something to dive into and for a while it sustains them because there is true beauty there and human beings need beauty in their lives and in their heart. It's something transcendent. And then eventually something will happen like they'll hit the midlife crisis or the relationships just stop satisfying them At some point. That thing stops being able to be all of their meaning like. It seems like it could have been or it used to be. And this really points to the spiritual truth that we need something more than the things of this life. We need something higher, and some of us I'm definitely one of these people.
Speaker 2:Elder Thaddeus, if you read his story in his book, is one of these people. Some of us kind of figure that out like really early on. We're kind of like why am I even here? Not midlife, but very early in life, and I think for me that was like in high school. I was already especially college, but I was already asking why am I just living Like?
Speaker 2:I don't understand how a person goes to like a job they don't like or something like that. I mean, simply put, it's God. But of course, there's a lot of opinions about what God is and what that means and how to approach him, and I think a lot of them don't work. So I can understand how there's people, some of the things that I was raised doing, some of the rock show Christianity Like it.
Speaker 2:Later I realized it had a very negative effect on me and it wasn't how God wanted us to approach him. And so if you use the wrong technique with the right intentions, the technique still doesn't work. It still can harm you rather than um helping you. And so I think, deep down, we we all were we're moving towards, and there's many other thinkers talking about this but simply put, we're moving towards or maybe we're moving past already a materialist worldview that everything is just particles, that we're all just stardust and as uh, I think it's carl sagan said like the universe doesn't care about you, and I always say in in response then why do I care?
Speaker 2:I'm part of the universe. Like, why is this universe, this part of it, care so much about anything like including itself? That doesn't care. Like it's a contradiction. I'm part of the universe and I care. And so there's part of us that longs for things higher than particles, things that no scientist can explain love, truth, beauty, etc. They presuppose these things are already there and then they'll tie all these connections. Oh well, you want to survive? Ok, why do I? Why do I want to survive Like lava flowing down the volcano doesn't want to survive.
Speaker 2:It's just one system, and then it cools and it hardens and it doesn't move anymore. Why? Why does this system want to keep doing all these things it does like there? It's it just. We know, we know in our hearts, so many of us know especially young people who are raised in it know that there has to be something more in the universe, that that life isn't about survival, that it's about love, that it's about friendship. Survival is just the secondary thing that's necessary so that I can have friends, so that I can have love, so that I can engage in beautiful things in my life. And so I think there is this exodus that's beginning of people back to the spiritual life, especially to the Orthodox Church, because it's so ancient and so practical, because it's very spiritual. And so I think a lot of people are making that journey because they're recognizing this absolutely fundamental hunger in their hearts for a higher purpose.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, something we can talk about if we get there is the rebirth of faith and there's something going on. There's also a quiet revival in England. There's bumper numbers at Easter services in all sorts of churches, you know, including the Orthodox Church. I was at a Romanian Orthodox Church this Easter, this Pascha, and I was, you know, shoulder to shoulder with people. It was just packed. And the Anglican Church and the Catholic Church are also saying their numbers are going up and I have gone up. I want to. I'm a rugby coach and I like to go.
Speaker 1:That was the right decision, the right intent, well done. But it was the wrong execution, the wrong technique. So you said something about technique. You know you do something the right technique without the correct intention. Can you just expand on that? So we need to come with this longing, this God-shaped hole, and then you say you talk about the orthodox church is having a revival, also because it's practical. So then do these things match? So if the, if the intention is right and I can, I can step into these practices, like awareness on my thoughts, the jesus prayer, you, which you can comment on if you like. You know these practical practices.
Speaker 2:Could you comment on that? Yeah, a lot of people, myself included, are used to a theme with religion and Christianity in particular, that it's basically about blind faith and there might be Bible verses like Hebrews talking about, like a belief in things unseen, but that's not traditional. That's the product of the same rationalism, the same over-reliance on the rational mind that led to materialism, led to thinking the world is all just particles. Is the same rationalism that when that person stays a Christian, they think it's all about having the correct logical beliefs about the faith. These are actually very linked movements that originated in the same centuries in Western Christianity and so connected to Roman Catholicism and certain Protestant traditions, and so this causes a problem within the faith because it really draws us away from the idea of faith being a relationship, being a friendship with God, and it also leads to what I would bluntly call a cult gaslighting, where the whole goal of the religion is to convince yourself of something you don't believe. And this was I. Thankfully, most most Protestants I was around didn't drive this home too hard, but I met some and it really like messed with my head, where they're like no, if you doubt at all that God exists, you're going to hell and that drove me crazy. And the truth is that's not even remotely historical, authentic Christianity not even remotely. The idea of faith in historic Christianity is to be friends with God, and God is the source of love. So he's a loving friend. He doesn't gaslight you, he doesn't tell you you're crazy. He might point out flaws but he does it in the most gentle, loving and constructive way and there's a there's a recognition that that doubting is a normal part of friendship. Like I might have a friend who makes a promise and keeps it. And makes a promise and keeps it. And makes a promise and keeps it, and this happens nine times. The 10th time he makes a promise I'm probably going to have faith in him and I don't see for sure that he's going to do that thing. But it's also not blind. It's based on nine past experiences I had. But also, if I have, say, trauma in my past and I had an abusive dad or something like that, I might still have a hard time believing that 10th time and a loving friend is going to understand that. But he knows that if I truly am becoming friends with him and I understand who he is, he knows that I will start to have faith in him, that I will start to trust him, that even the past trauma can't overcome, how well I'm beginning to know him. And so this is the actual Christian approach. It's a relational approach, it's a spiritual approach, it's an approach that treats it as a friendship.
Speaker 2:So there is this sense in which doubt is an evil thing, but it's evil in two ways. It's evil if it's something that we use to justify evil. So if I say, ah, there's no God, I can live how I want. Like I can abuse people, I can be unfair in my business dealings, like that's the sinful doubt as an excuse to be an evil person. And the other way that doubt is evil is actually in a very validating way. It's something that happens to us. Like it's it's a hard cross to to have questions and doubts Anyone in a relationship where they're constantly like struggling with, with I know they've proven their self, but I still doubt them like maybe because of past trauma. They understand this isn't pleasant, this isn't fun. God is understanding, he's gentle, he understands these things, he's willing to walk with us and work with us and faith the the friendship and trust with him builds. And yeah, so that leads to this other point I'm kind of leading into with all of that, which is when I was Protestant, we would talk about how you just, you know, you just believe, just have faith.
Speaker 2:Orthodoxy. I word it this way. This is my wording. This isn't a saint that says this, but I'm deriving faith Orthodoxy. I word it this way. This is my wording. This isn't a saint that says this, but I deriving this from orthodoxy, and this is how I did it.
Speaker 2:Christianity should actually prove itself to you. And that's a weird, that's a very bold thing to say. If something is true, it should be demonstrable with evidence. And, funny enough, that's something that, like modern rationalism that I've already talked about, like, really emphasizes. But they limit the categories. They say it has to be with the eyes and it has to be with the ears and it has to be these five senses, which is called empiricism. But the idea of needing empirical evidence actually is an entirely Christian idea. It just there's a lot more than the five senses. Your heart is a sense, your sense of beauty is a sense that's not related to a specific organ. That's sight, that's beautiful music. You have so many other senses and if we throw them out of the gate, that creates problems.
Speaker 2:But I think all of this to say that orthodoxy and ancient Christianity presents itself in a way that it doesn't expect you to just believe, that it asks you to seek, that it asks you to put an effort, that it says come, see as Christ says, taste and see that the Lord is good. And so authentic Christianity puts itself out there in a way that it doesn't gaslight you and treat you like you're crazy for the fact that it needs to prove itself. Now. It might not prove itself in the way that you want it to, and I think that's where the balance lies. Like we go, okay, god, if you're real, do this miracle for me. Like, yeah, that's not going to work because what God wants is humility and that's very prideful. That's very much like arrogant approach. But if you approach humbly and say Lord, if I'm to believe in you and I'm to believe in this religion and I'm to believe in this path and these teachings, I have to see that they work. I have to see that they help me. I don't know how that will be, like I can't say that I already know in advance, before I'm even changed or transformed, but something would have to prove to me that this is true. Something would have to show me that this is actually good and in orthodoxy that's not shamed at all.
Speaker 2:A great example of this is the Apostle Thomas. I was raised with people who, if you doubted, they'd call you a doubting Thomas. You know slur to insult you and make you feel ashamed that you you questioned. But sincere questioning should be welcomed. And Thomas isn't rebuked in the story. He isn't rebuked when he doubts that Christ has been resurrected and says if I'm to believe I would need to put my fingers in the holes of his hands. Christ doesn't say, wow, you have no faith. Like not helping you out, like he goes okay here. And it's actually in historical Christianity his doubt is called holy doubt. It was actually just this last Sunday. We had Thomas Sunday it's always the week after Pascha, after Easter, and we actually referenced Thomas's holy doubt.
Speaker 2:He doubts because he wants to know what is true and that's a blessed thing. Like, if you, if you want to believe your friend and you want to be friends with them, they want to provide evidence for you to believe. And so this the reality is is, um that if, say, take a crime scene, I watch a, I'm definitely a true crime buff and, uh, you, if you take a crime scene, I'm definitely a true crime buff. And if you take a crime scene, you're looking for this answer that explains why there's this mark on the wall over here and this was found over here and all these different details is called Occam's razor. After all the evidence is considered, the simplest explanation is the most likely. But the further testing is that once you have a theory, if you find new evidence you know, maybe there's some gun smoke on some of the wall over here it should line up with the theory, and if it doesn't, your theory is wrong.
Speaker 2:And if something is true, it doesn't fear this kind of questioning. And so true Christianity expects that if it gives you these techniques, if it gives you these prayers, if it gives you these services and you understand them and you seek them out, it will produce results. And so it is something that I've actually told some of my coaching clients. When they're struggling with doubts and questions and maybe they feel some shame about it, I always tell them you can treat orthodoxy like a science experiment. You can treat historical Christianity like a science experiment. Be humble about it. Don't don't be arrogant and cocky and like God has to prove himself, but even that he might accept because he's very loving and very gentle.
Speaker 2:But if you want the truth and you say this is basically what I said back with Elder Thaddeus' stuff, I said, lord, I'm going to try it. I don't know if it'll work, I don't know if it'll help me, but I'm going to try it. I'm going to try living this Orthodox life. I see enough historical evidence. I feel kind of convicted. I'm going to go to the services for a little while. I going to pray some of the prayers, I'm going to do the whole thank you when I'm suffering thing and I'm going to do some of these things and I'm going to see what it does. And a year later, as I already said, I was a different person and so any anything true should should accept that level of challenge and should be humble enough.
Speaker 2:It's always a cult leader who's like how dare you question me? How dare you question? You know whether they claim they're Jesus himself or whatever. It is like all these cult leaders like to claim. They always say how dare you question me? That's the devil In Christianity. That's the devil who says how dare you question me? And God has empathy and love and compassion for us. So yeah, so it's. The spiritual life should be something we, we can test.
Speaker 2:And the last thing I'll say on this is, I think, for anyone who's ever seen the Karate Kid classic 80s film, one of the most famous scene from the whole movie is when Mr Miyagi, when that, when the Karate Kid wants trained by Mr Miyagi and Mr Miyagi says, okay, I'll teach you something. And he says wax my car, like this, wax on, wax off. And the kid's appalled, like this is dumb, like why are you making me wax your car? And he thinks you know, this is probably something. Maybe if I wax his car he'll help me, like learn karate. And later he's in a fight and of course, when the this kid swings at him in the fight, he can block it and he realizes it's from this method he did, it's from this ritual we could call it. It's from this liturgical action he does this motion. He didn't understand while he was doing it and it transformed him in a way that only appeared when he needed it.
Speaker 2:And this is a lot of what's going on in historical Christianity. It is a lot of methods, a lot of practices, a lot of stillness. We're often standing still in the liturgy, just standing there, and at first I hated it. I actually the first Orthodox service I went to, I hated it so much I prayed it would end and a year later I realized it was the best thing that had ever happened to me. And there's a whole. That's its whole. You know?
Speaker 2:other podcast of why the stillness is good for us, but the bigger picture here is that all of these methods are not just empty rituals or vain repetitions or anything like that. Some of the world's accusations, some Protestant accusations, valid concerns, but that's not what's going on here. What's going on here is the Mr Miyagi wax on, wax off. These are things that you you don't have to just believe them. You can do them and try them and say, lord, I want, if this is true and if you're real, I want to see. So I'm going to try them. I'm going to wax Mr Miyagi's car.
Speaker 1:I don't know what it will do, um, but that I believe should produce results, and if it doesn't, I in all honesty, I have no argument for you, like, but for me and for the people I know, um, it's produced a deep transformation and so, yeah, I was teaching a philosophy lesson today on revelation, divine revelation and general revelation, and I spoke about Thomas, spoke about doubting Thomas about two, three, three hours ago, and I've been a Christian for as long as I can remember, trying to be, and I have never heard it in that way Holy doubt. I've always sort of got cross with thomas. You know, come on, you know how can you doubt the lord's, just like you know he's been resurrected, he's, he's in the room, he's here. You know how can you?
Speaker 2:tell that always gets left out too. Is that that, and I didn't know this for a long time? The text before says all the other apostles got to put their fingers in the holes, so we don't know if they actually would have doubted worse than Thomas there isn't anything to suggest that they just believed without the proof, because they got the proof.
Speaker 2:And then he comes along and he asks for the proof. Maybe his heart was actually better, maybe he actually wanted, whereas they didn't. Christ came along and saw their faith was weak and so he said here, put your fingers in the holes. And then christ came along and saw their faith was weak and so he said here, put your fingers in the holes. And then thomas came along and he did like he does with many people and he's like I'm going to show off his faith and I'm going to say here I am, and thomas goes I'm on the cusp. Maybe he was closer to believing, I'm on the cusp, but I would have to do this yeah so it's interesting because, yeah, there's some of the details that we often miss in that story.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thaddeus, one of my favorite pictures that you've ever posted is a picture of a fruit tree Cause you've mentioned the word humility quite a bit and it's a picture of a fruit tree and it's full of oranges, I think it is, and it says the, the trees with the most fruit, bow down the lowest, or is it the other way around? Can you, can you cause? You sort of also came to orthodoxy through these online sayings, and I've always get these bite-sized sayings of the, of the fathers and mothers, you know, and so is it. Is it that the, the trees with the most fruit, bow down the lowest, or the lowest trees have the most fruit or bear the most fruit?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's. There's a. There's this expression that goes around and it's a very good one. I think we could even go deeper than it, but there's a. There's an expression that humility isn't thinking less of yourself, it's thinking of yourself less, which is a very good expression, because it's really a mistake to think that in Western culture, pride means maybe that's a good place to start pride, which is the opposite of humility.
Speaker 2:In Western culture, pride means arrogance, or what the church fathers would call vainglory, which is to think you're so awesome and think you're so awesome and think you're so great, and it's certainly a subcategory of pride. But in the fathers, pride is the root sin and pride is a focus on self, and that doesn't mean that, like taking care of yourself is bad, but it means a preoccupation, like I'm really focused on it. I'm thinking about what I want and what I desire, and my opinion about a situation or political issue or whatever it is matters the most and there's no room for others above mine, and I'm offended. Maybe I hurt their feelings too, but I don't think about that, I'm offended. It is selfishness, ultimately, and it is self-reliance. I don't need other people, like other people don't matter as much as me, and we can have this without consciously thinking that we can live in a way that we mistreat other people and prioritize ourselves, while in our head being like, oh, I have this value system that is all about other people. But really we only use that value system to justify when we're hurt and we're offended, and so we can veil this and hide this.
Speaker 2:And I think a lot of really all spiritual issues, all social issues flow to human beings doing this. All my issues are linked to the fact that I struggle with this. All human beings are trying to be their own, god in a way, and protect themselves and provide for themselves and worship themselves, et cetera and on the surface it maybe doesn't seem that way and protect themselves and provide for themselves and worship themselves, etc. And on the surface it maybe doesn't seem that way. But I think the deeper you dive into why you do what you do psychologically, spiritually, etc. You start to find that it's a mix of valid responses to trauma and these self focus methods of protecting ourselves, and so the battle with this is the battle for humility, and so, of course, thinking less of ourselves a lot of times that's still self-preoccupation. That's why it really doesn't make us happy. You know, if we're hard on ourselves, beat ourselves up.
Speaker 2:The Orthodox saints say that God doesn't like that Heck. Monty Python, the Holy Grail, says God doesn't like that, the groveling before the Lord, and he's like stop doing that. Like that's. I'd actually say that's pretty accurate. Now, he doesn't. He doesn't like us to beat ourselves up. He does like us to admit our flaws. But it's so key in all of the saints and this is one of the basic parts of my coaching that even if we're confessing our flaws or saying, lord, I have these problems, we're gentle and peaceful about it. And Elder Thaddeus quotes St Isaac the Syrian, an early church saint, saying don't trade your peace for anything in this world. And so peacefulness is key, and peacefulness, then, is tied to humility.
Speaker 2:If focusing on myself, being overly obsessed with myself, even my negative attributes, is related to pride, then being gentle with ourselves is actually related to humility. We should have that honesty, though. But if the next layer is thinking of ourselves less, that's very good, obviously like if selfishness is the problem. Thinking of ourselves less, that's very good. Obviously like if selfishness is the problem, thinking of ourselves less is good. But we can still be selfish. We can still make the world about ourselves, even without thinking of ourselves directly. We can still objectify other people and use them. And so I think some of the deeper levels of humility are to see our need for outside help Alcoholics, anonymous programs actually talk about this the need for a higher power, the need for other human beings, so not thinking about ourselves, seeing our need for other people, seeing our need for, maybe, a creator to help us love. These are all related to humility and it distances us from ourself.
Speaker 2:And the word humility is also connected to the words hummus, which is earth. That's the root word is hummus. Humiliation is also a linked word. Getting ahead of myself there, humiliation is linked to because it's being made into earth, being made into dirt. You know someone who's truly humble if someone insults them goes. That's probably true, I probably have those flaws and they become the most powerful and likable people. But someone who doesn't have humility, who has a high opinion of themselves, who doesn't have much fruit on the tree, when someone insults them they're like how dare they? And no one likes a person like that, except people who can get something from them, which is means that selfish people and selfish people collaborate. But humble people, gentle people. They, they're liked by everyone, like, obviously, once in a while someone doesn't like them, but for the most part, the person who doesn't think of themselves and always thinks of you. There's an example of that.
Speaker 2:I had a friend who you know we were talking and he's like well, most of the time I'm in a conversation I'm, you know, I'm trying to think of something really cool to like, impress the other person, make them like me. And I asked him. I said turn the tables on that. When you're listening to someone else talk, are you waiting for them to say something cool so that you will like them? And he's like no, no, no, who does that? Like I said. I said what you want is probably for them to love you, to be thinking about you, to say something you said was cool, like that's what makes you love them, is that they care about you. I said now turn the tables back. That's the best thing to think about. Think about them, think about what they need and the Christian life.
Speaker 2:When Christ tells us to love our enemies and take up our crosses and to do good to those who persecute us, what he's saying is, even if they do stuff that we don't like, whether that's on accident or intentional keep loving like that. And a lot of people that come to me when this challenge is presented to them, this challenge of to this extreme humility, as we Orthodox would call it, they might. You know some people I think if they're in this state they're not going to come to me anyways, they're not going to want coaching. Some people want to just say that that's not needed or possible or anything. But a lot of people know God commands this. He does command this extreme humility, this extreme preoccupation with that well-being of other people, not, I should clarify, people pleasing, but actually doing what's truly good for them, not what they want, not what makes them not mad at you, but truly thinking about them. People pleasing is another prideful, selfish thing and I do done this a lot myself. But God commands this occupation with the other person and I'll have people come to me and they'll start really breaking down and saying I just feel like I don't actually love people, like I have those emotions for a little while and then they go away and then I'm selfish again and I myself had this same experience even back when I was a Protestant. And they'll sometimes say it feels like it's actually impossible to love, and I always jolt them a bit because I'll say, well, it is Like it is impossible, like you're right. But I always quote Christ and say what's impossible with man is possible with God and the Orthodox faith.
Speaker 2:One of the most important things about Orthodoxy and about the early Christians and historical Christianity is that when they read John saying that God is love in the scriptures and he who loves God knows love, knows God, etc. He kind of fleshes this out. We take this extremely literally, literally. We take this as literally. Any love in you, any readiness to sacrifice for the beauty of someone else and to do what's truly right and what's good for them, is from God. And to be united with God is the same thing to be united with love. And he is a person. Some people want to boil that down to like oh, it's just like. Love is just what we, god is just what we call this force of love. No, he's a person, because love is personal. It doesn't make sense that love could exist somewhere that doesn't have persons.
Speaker 2:Love is a person to person act, so he has to be persons hence the doctrine of the Trinity in order to have this love, and then it flows from him down to us, and this is why even the creation story was paused midway Once. There was one man and God said this is the one thing that's not good. I've made all the stuff, all of it I'm focusing on. It's good, but if God was all preoccupied with himself, he could have just had this perfect story. And then he made man and woman, and that was good too. But he pauses to make this point for us to say one person alone is not good. And then he makes woman as a helper and as someone to help in the life of love. Each member of the Trinity is a helper to each other in a way, and so humility is so tied to this.
Speaker 2:Because humility, this getting off of ourselves, getting off of trusting our own opinion, this putting aside of ourselves, is the state in which we're receptive to receive love. It's the initial stage, and so orthodoxy is about humility, because only God himself can give us real love. But humility is the state God leads us to through becoming earth, through being lowered to the ground, through sometimes humiliation, as hard as that is, but we find purpose in it. Now it's not just like oh, someone said this comment about me and I'm, and it hurt me so much. Now there's a purpose.
Speaker 2:Would we rather have meaningless suffering or meaningful suffering? We're going to suffer. No one has solved the problem of suffering Like we're all suffering. But the difference is is that God offers us meaningful suffering, suffering that when we look back on it later, we go. I actually wouldn't change that. That's the miracle, because my suffering before I was like I wish I could change all this. And now I'm at a point in my life, by the mercy of God, where I wouldn't change it. I wouldn't go back and change any of the stuff that's happened to me because I discovered through the lens of the saints how meaningful it all was.
Speaker 1:Beautiful. I have to take us back to when I said religion is actually about, about making us more human. And do you know, father Stephen Freeman? He's got a wonderful blog called Glory to God for All Things. Glory to God for All Things. And he writes we are hummus and God's spirit. That's what you know. We're not just dust, we are hummus and God's spirit. We're not just dust, but we're dust mixed with God's spirit. It's such a beautiful image.
Speaker 1:I'm bringing this up because this is what the Sunny Banana is all about. It's about understanding and seeing what it is to be human, giving and offering, hopefully, people some direction and guidance of how to be human. So I guess my question there. I've got two more questions.
Speaker 1:This question you mentioned pride being the opposite of humility, and I immediately thought of the fall from grace, the fall from paradise, adam and Eve, thought of the fall from grace, the fall from paradise, adam and Eve and a lot of the modern day well-being offering is. It says that we are not broken, we were awesome. As you say, we can do this, we can do this by ourselves, and a lot of it is geared to that. But I would suggest that that is pride speaking. And A lot of people say, oh, don't worry, it's natural. It's natural to sin. Okay, now you can correct me on this.
Speaker 1:I think the Orthodox believe that it's actually not our natural state, it's our condition now. But our natural human nature is actually glorified. It's with God, it's when we get union God and we become like God. But it's actually abnormal to sin, it's abnormal to be proud, it's abnormal to be disobedient. So it flips the secular or popular wellness world on its head and says, actually we have a problem, there's a problem with the default system and it needs to be restored. It's not and there's a problem with us.
Speaker 1:Because if you said it to, I think, a modern carer today and say that humanity is a problem with humanity, it's just not right, is it? We say, well, that's just natural, we're human, we're not perfect. I guess there's a lot of crossover here, but I wonder if you can comment on that that when we're prideful and envious and jealous and greedy and so on and so forth, we actually become less human, so we're going away from who we should be. And then, when we love and we allow grace into our hearts and we're humble and we're peaceful, we actually that's when we become more human and that's towards our natural state. That's actually natural. So I wonder if you could comment on that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. It's absolutely the case that the very definition of natural nature is something like, for a Christian is created by God how it should be, and nothing God made is anything less than good, and so anything that is not good, it is, by definition, unnatural. So when the Protestant Reformation talked a lot about sin is human nature, this is really really bad theology and they don't mean this, but it logically implies that God designed sin, which of course they don't believe that at all, but it's a terrible wording. Love is human nature, um, that's, that's the truth. Humility is human nature, um, these, these things are all. Compassion is human nature. Being beautiful is human nature in every sense of the word, not just visually, but being good Human nature is good, and the state we're in, the fallen state, is unnatural. Sin is unnatural. I'm in an unnatural state, a state not according to my nature, and so everything in orthodoxy you could sum it up, everything in historical Christianity is the Mr Miyagi, wax on, wax off to make us human, again, like you've already been talking about. And it's interesting because, again, like you've already been talking about, and it's interesting because again, if you kind of one of the big differences, one of the big differences and I'm glad I'm covering a lot of bases that I think in the modern stereotypes keep people from Christianity, and I understand a lot of it. I think that it's valid. One of the big ones is that the big differences between Orthodoxy and the Western Christian traditions think that it's valid.
Speaker 2:One of the big ones is that the big differences between orthodoxy and the Western Christian traditions is that there's generally a theology that what keeps us from God is that God has retributive justice. If there is a crime, he has to punish it, and if you did any crime whatsoever, he has to kill you. And what he does to keep from having to send us to hell forever is he kills his own son instead, and since his own son doesn't owe a debt, he can pay for all of us. And so the whole gospel is going around and telling everyone the good news that God's not going to send you to hell because he got to punish someone instead of you, which, like I mean, I'm wording it as negative as possible, but that is, I think, a fair, negative interpretation of what's being said. This narcissistic person who, by definition, doesn't have mercy, mercy is, you owe me something and I say you don't have to pay it. If I make someone else pay me, I was not merciful. So if God cannot forgive us without a payment, he is by definition not merciful. Um, and unfortunately this is the message has taken over the West, this legalistic idea, and thus what keeps me from God is that, you know, I break his rules.
Speaker 2:And when we look at Adam and Eve, the problem is that they ate the fruit. That's it. It's simple as that. But that's not the problem with Adam and Eve. The problem with Eve first, she has thoughts enter her head, which is the spiritual life we're wrestling with today. The devil, the demons, trauma, whatever it is, generate thoughts in us, negative thoughts, and at that point we haven't sinned at all. That's a temptation, but we haven't sinned. We think through it. We think, oh, do I want to do this thing? And then we decide to do it.
Speaker 2:Where Eve goes wrong is that she has these thoughts and she thinks through them. No problem yet. And then she doesn't ask adam or god. She operates independently. That's the beginning of the problem. That's pride. She doesn't go god. What do you think of? This is what this surface thing makes sense. I mean, this apple does look good for food and for acquiring knowledge and pleasing to the eye. Those are the three things, um, and the tail end of that is sin.
Speaker 2:Then she does something that breaks God's law. But that's an outward expression Like I was saying earlier about how names are an outward expression of a change I want to have internally. The breaking of a rule in itself doesn't matter. You can call me Shay, you can call me Thaddeus, you can call me Fruit Loop, like I don't care. You can call me a lot of different names and I could probably recognize who you're talking to. But it's still valuable someone's name. And likewise, the purpose wasn't the law, god wasn't. Like I made a rule and you broke it and I'm mad at you. Like that's that's a dad that like like we, we hope no child would have.
Speaker 2:Like that's not love. That's not related to how God operates. God is protecting them, because what actually is happening is that to operate independently from God distances us from him in the most relational and deep way. And God, just like he's love itself, he's also life itself. So if we start operating from our own knowledge of good and evil that's what the fruit is in the story we will die because we don't have life anymore, we don't have friendship with God. And so of course we Orthodox believe Adam and Eve are real people and this was a real event that happened, even if some of the smaller details. I mean maybe the serpent wasn't literally a snake, I mean, but they were real people and this fall really happened. Really a snake, I mean, but they were real people and this fall really happened. But that's also a spiritual parallel to everything we're going through every day.
Speaker 2:That we try and rely on our own knowledge of what is good and evil instead of letting God reveal it to us. Again, we're back at pride, and so this is what causes the fall. This is what distances us from God, and not only that. We grow what are called. We develop what are called passions. The Bible says crucify the passions. Passions are where these good parts of us try and take over the place that God's supposed to go and be our God. Instead, again, we're back at I look to my career to make me happy. I look to my spouse to make me happy. I look to something in the created world to be my God. None of these things are bad things, but they flood that area. They go to the Holy of Holies, the deepest part of the temple of my heart, and try to be God there, and they become the pagan idols that I worship instead. And so the real thing that keeps me from God is that I'm so attached to worshiping creation instead.
Speaker 2:And the spiritual life in asceticism is not where I fast and where I deny myself. As the scriptures say. It has nothing to do with like torturing yourself to please God or torturing yourself to unite with him. What it has to do is these things that have become my God are going to go back into their place. I'm not going to never eat again Eating isn't bad but I'm going to put it in its right place and by practicing fasting this will not be my God anymore. I'll only eat at certain times. It's not ruling me anymore. And then God comes into that place in our hearts and takes that place. And so this is the spiritual life Again, kind of full circle here. It doesn't have anything to do with like payments to a God who won't forgive us. It has everything to do. The whole Christian life is about a God who heals us in our bodies and in our souls, so by through being friends with him, but also so that we can be the deepest friends with him. It's both the means and the ends is friendship with God. So yeah, and that. That.
Speaker 2:The last thing I'll say, tying it all together, is St Justin Popovich, a moderate. He was a modern philosopher, st he said there is no man, no true man, no true human being who is not a God. Man Like the definition, the nature of man is to be deeply friends with God. Just like we see how psychologically, spiritually, biologically, men and women kind of fit together, like it's the same with man and God. We have this way that we fit together with God, and if we're not that with him, we always something's always missing. We always experience pain, suffering, death, etc. And so everything is about becoming truly human, but that includes an understanding that that is union with God, not just being like a moral and virtuous person, but actually being constant friends with him constantly.
Speaker 2:Everything that happens we have our own thoughts but actually being constant friends with him, constantly everything that happens, we have our own thoughts. But we looked at him and we go what do you think God Like? What do you think? And we and we talk with each other and we have again. It's weird, but sometimes we have our own opinion and that doesn't bother God, but it's always it's. He's never sacrificed for the sake of our opinion.
Speaker 2:I'll give an example of this because it sounds kind of confusing. There's a point in the Old Testament where God says I'm going to destroy the city. And Abraham goes well, you wouldn't destroy the city if it has, you know, say, 50 righteous people. And God goes OK, if it has 50 righteous people, I won't destroy it. And he's like nope, it doesn't. Ok, I'm going to destroy it. And Abraham goes no, no, no, god, you wouldn't. You wouldn't destroy it if it had, you know. And he lowers the number several times and he's opposing God. He's telling God God, you're going to do this thing. I think you shouldn't do it and I'll even argue with you and give you a case.
Speaker 2:But that story is not a story of Abraham being sinful. That's a story of Abraham pleasing God. Why? Because Abraham's reasons for saying that stuff to God was because his heart was like God's and God in that moment. Obviously God has this providence, but God is actually showing off how wonderful Abraham is. It's the same story in the New Testament when the I think she's often called the Syrophoenician woman. One father calls her Justa, saint Justa, but the woman approaches Christ, who's not an Israelite, she's from far away and she wants his help. And he goes sorry, I came for the Israelites, not the dogs. And she goes even the dogs, though, can eat crumbs off the master's table. And Christ basically points at her, to all the people around and goes this is a woman I like this is a godly woman.
Speaker 2:And of course, he knows that from the beginning he's show he's harsh to her because he knows she will show become a lesson of glory for all these other people. But this is this is going on with our hearts all the time that we have even, maybe, room for independent thought, and that's part of the relationship. If God wanted robots, he could have made robots. If he wanted slaves, he could have made slaves. But what he wants is people who are in a friendship where our only concern is our friendship with him, to be a good bride to the bridegroom.
Speaker 1:Lovely, so, so fascinating, and this. We don't have enough time really to to talk about this on this podcast, unless we make a 10 hour one or 10, 10 episodes, if you're up for that, because there's just so much. There's just so much, so much, so much. Cause, when you were talking about adam and eve and then eve having the thought because this is what my last question is going to lead into this, um, having a thought and then testing it, so you said, you said like she didn't say anything to god or saying to adam, or say you know, she followed through on the thoughts, um, and obviously not all thoughts are from God. So my last question, and it's got to do with Dr Martin Shaw.
Speaker 1:He mentioned this book. He said it's his favorite book on the shelf. It's a book that's changed your life and it's a book that, uh, made my life better too. Um, and I look at this serbian monk and the love that radiates from his face just by seeing a picture of him there, the peacefulness that radiates from his face I've got an icon that's always next to me when I'm doing coaching.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's the icon.
Speaker 1:So let the peace radiate there to our listeners and viewers. Why, as Martin Shaw says, and this will wrap it up why should every teenager slash? Everybody read this book.
Speaker 2:The simplest version. Obviously I'm going to say a little more, but the simplest version is because everybody's suffering. Because everybody's suffering and we all want to know why. Whether we're taking drugs or whether we're searching the world, religions like, whatever we're doing, whether we're sleeping around, whether we want to end our lives, it's because of suffering. Suffering is for a lot of us.
Speaker 2:Symbolically, it's the God Like. Symbolic is related to what our actual experience is and the thing that often for a lot of hurt people is the most powerful force guiding their everyday life is suffering, a lack of peace, misery, pain, and functionally that's a God Like it's dominating their lives. It's the deeper, inner spiritual force flavoring everything and Elder Thaddeus talks about in the simplest terms, in little stories and parables and teachings, and also the life, because the first part is life, the second part is teachings. He explains why that is and I mean he's not going to prove it to you, but he's going to make a compelling case and he's not an apologist. It's simpler than that. It's more human, it's more down to earth, it's more hummus, it's more just actual experience, as I sometimes call orthodoxy a religion for human beings, following the same theme we've been talking about. But he explains why that is that this force of suffering is so prevalent, and he explains what its purpose is, because it is a valid question that I asked a lot until I found my answers of why would God let us suffer like this? It's not really most of the time people say the problem of evil. It's not the problem of evil because they're thinking evil is like deeds, like it's a legal thing, like this thing happening is evil. Evil is a state of the heart wishing something that's not good and not beautiful. But what we're really usually talking about is the problem of suffering. Why is a good God letting people suffer so much? And it's a very valid question. No one should deter people from asking this question. If they're deterring you, it's probably because they don't have an answer. Um, but it, the good God, welcomes us to ask this question and the whole book of Job is about it. Like we can do a whole no-transcript. Go away Like no one's.
Speaker 2:No one has made the has been successful in that, the richest people haven't solved it, the greatest philosophers, et cetera. But I think the real thing that we're offered is kind of what I touched on earlier. Is it possible to find enough meaning in suffering, that I'm actually thankful for it, that I actually find such rich purpose. And I told one of my friends I said the difference that orthodoxy made, the difference that Elder Thaddeus made, was not that I went from suffering to not suffering, but that I went from meaningless suffering to suffering that was dripping with purpose, that it was so apparent and so obvious and, as I said before, that I wouldn't change anything. And if that's appealing, that's why you should read the book, because he lays that groundwork and all of the saints they're actually going to be talking about the exact same stuff. They're all going to be giving the depths of these questions and their answers and why God is doing what he's doing and how it actually does lead to real joy and peace and happiness.
Speaker 2:But Elder Thaddeus, I mean, there's something extra special about him. He's a great starting place, he's very simple and he's modern. He reposed in 2003, I believe, and so, yeah, he's a man of our times and talked to people who had our struggles especially. So, yeah, Beautiful.
Speaker 1:You know what makes us that human condition, as it were, in a real sense, and that, for me, is quite powerful. So I just want to just again our thoughts determine our lives. Well, where's my camera? There it is, for our, not in focus. Okay, our thoughts determine our lives. By Elder Thaddeus of Vitovnica, which is in Serbia.
Speaker 1:I often teach my students about, or try to teach them about, their thoughts. Quite difficult, but you have a thought and you tune into your thought. So, like, what is the thought, what is the thought I'm having? And then I test the thought like it's truth or where it's from. Is this true? And, and that could be get come, that could come through speaking to somebody praying to god or saying the jesus prayer or something, and then you transform the thought or the. The thought. The thought is either acted upon, if it is from god, or it's um, it's forgotten, or let go, or um.
Speaker 1:So, and I got you to thank for that, you inspired me all those, all those years ago, um, with your work, and I'm not sure how I came across. Must've been, must've been back then, twitter. You know, since, the world has changed since then. It was back then, it was called Twitter and, uh, my friend was inquiring into orthodoxy and so I thought, okay, and you know, covid was like people went down rabbit holes because they had the time to you know, and it was great, and I found you and four years later you're on my podcast, the Sunny Banana. So I always end off saying Sunny Bunani, which is the greeting I see you, that's.
Speaker 2:Sunny Bunani.