#42 | Baptism Did Not End The Battle It Made It Real - The Sunny Banana was interviewed!

You can hear it when someone stops treating faith like a label and starts treating it like a life. Jonah (formerly an Anglican lay minister and school chaplain from South Africa) tells the story of how candles, incense, and a teenage confirmation first woke his heart, and how the Church’s witness cut through the racial narratives of a divided country with one stubborn truth: every person bears the image of God. 

From an unexpected meeting with an Ethiopian Orthodox community in Johannesburg to the slow pull of the Jesus Prayer and The Way of a Pilgrim, the path to Eastern Orthodox Christianity is anything but tidy. We talk honestly about chaplaincy in a secular school setting, the temptation to keep religion vague, and the inner conflict that grows when churches begin mirroring the surrounding culture. Then we trace the practical steps that made the difference: showing up at services, meeting Orthodox Christians in real life, joining catechesis, and learning the faith through worship rather than hype. 

Mount Athos comes up as a “thin place” that pushes the mind into the heart, and Jonah shares what changed after baptism: not instant ease, but sharper spiritual warfare, deeper repentance, and a stronger tug towards Christ through the Jesus Prayer. We also explore why he chose the name Jonah, how the saints become family, and what it looks like to bring faith into work through a podcast and a new business venture. 

If you are curious about conversion to Orthodoxy, Orthodox baptism as an adult, the Jesus Prayer, or simply how to live Christianity without turning it into a performance, this conversation will meet you where you are. Subscribe, share this with a friend who is searching, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway.

Transcript

Prayer And Welcome

SPEAKER_02 0:02

So I see it as all sort of like not evangelizing but spreading spreading orthodoxy in a way. Yeah. Or at least just the authentic experience of it.

SPEAKER_00 0:17

Good. I think we are working now. Let me move this. This is the first go on these uh with these mics, so excellent. It will be uh interesting. I look very fancy. Uh let me find my questions as well. Shall we pray quick? Maybe you would just say the Our Father. Yes. Yes. Should we say it in Slow? Our Father Lord in the heavens. Hello.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

Thy name. Thy kingdom come. That will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

Give us to stay our daily bread. Forgive us our debts. Forgive our debtors. Deliver us from the evil one. Have mercy on us to say this on me. Amen. Oh, welcome. Thank you, brother. I hope it's going to be a laid-back interview, though. But um no stress. It's been a joy to get to know you the last year. Yeah, like yeah already.

SPEAKER_02 1:15

Yeah, September. Well, September, I think I joined was my first service over here.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

September.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

September.

SPEAKER_02 1:25

Yeah. And yeah, likewise, it's been a joy.

SPEAKER_00 1:29

The time has gone so so fast. Yeah. Well, it's it feels like I've known you for a long time.

Anglican Beginnings In South Africa

SPEAKER_00 1:36

I thought we would start off a little bit just talking about where you've been.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:41

Your journey to orthodoxy, your journey to Christianity, your journey to your life in South Africa. I don't know if you wanted to speak a little bit about that, where you grew up.

SPEAKER_02 1:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

That kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:56

So I was baptized in the Anglican church by sort of a middle of the road Anglican family. And I remember my mum forcing me to go to confirmation. I remember saying, I was 16 years old, and I was saying, I know I'm Anglican. I can just say it. I go to confirmation. And I must say it was it was formative. And I tell people when I decided to become a Christian was the night of my confirmation where the bishop walked past me, and all the candles and all the incense, because it was quite high Anglican service, all made sense to me. You know, the vestments and everything started to fall into place. And I did feel Christ saying, Follow me that night. I was 16. And in South Africa, obviously, many people know this, it was a very divided country. And my elders around me at my football club, going out to barbecues and so on, were telling me that I was I was superior to people who weren't white.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 3:12

So this was like this narrative I was getting from the culture. But in the church, it was opposite, because I would get this narrative that we're all created in the image of God, and I would be praying with black people, colored people, Indian people. And that was also quite powerful for me to say, I choose the church, I choose Christianity, I choose not this narrative that the elders around me. Now that's not weren't my parents. My parents never ever taught me that. I was superior to anyone else. God bless them for that. So that was very formative to see that clear cut between the world, what the world can teach you, and what the church teaches.

An Ethiopian Orthodox Door Opens

SPEAKER_02 4:03

Fast forward to 19 years old, and my friend and I, Catholic friend of mine and I, we used to just go around random churches, stop at the church, and knock on the door and say, Hello, what do you believe? And talk to the minister there or whoever was there. One day I was alone, didn't have him with me. And I saw the saw this Ethiopian Orthodox church in the middle of Janisburg where no normal person, sane person should go alone. But I did. Not the church, the area. I'll make that clear. Knock on the church. And two Ethiopian women with white headscarves greet me. And look, I'll look, I'll go, hold on. Am I in a church? Why you got your head covered, you know? And they were so excited to see me. They said, you have to come, one of them said to me, You have to come meet my husband. Come. And we go. That that at that moment I try I follow them in a car through Janisburg, up this block of flats, to this door, and this guy opens up, and he's a Caucasian man like me, so he's not, he's not Ethiopian. Pascal was his name. He was Roman Catholic, but he obviously converted to Ethiopian Orthodoxy. They invited me to the house subsequently, and at this meal, it was during Lent, so it was very it was on the floor and it was very, very plain. I wouldn't say the food was very tasty. God bless. And they took, asked me to take my shoes off, and he washed my feet. I'm 19 years old now and I'm I'm experiencing this and never experienced the Anglican church had that Maundy Thursday tradition of washing feet, which I thought was very powerful, and I loved it every year. But this was now part of going into the home, which we'll come to later. And what I found in orthodoxy is that it doesn't just happen in the church. It must seep and integrate into your life. So washing my feet and had this wonderful meal. And that was 19, 21 years ago, but it has never never left me. Never, never left me. I used to be an altar server in the Orthodox, I mean the Anglican church, and I was serving at a confirmation service, because confirmation services were always special to me because I found that on that night I had a calling to be a Christian. And then the priest, it was an Anglican priest, obviously, was preaching about the Jesus prayer. And he said, This is the Orthodox Church tradition, and I said, Well, what's this? So I put that, you know, that that Ethiopian experience and then this Jesus prayer experience, and then the way of the pilgrim, the book, came across my desk, as it were. Silence was always special to me. I always had a sort of silent practice and a silent prayer of the heart, and that that that just took my heart away. And I know it was that was like 20, 20 odd years ago still, and I'm 40. I got baptized when I was 40 now. I guess these were just in my heart and just knocking at the door always, you know, until I started coming to liturgies, and then it was just inevitable. Once you read more about the Orthodox Saints, and once you read about the history, and once you partake in its services and it's what it offers, is it's very hard to turn away.

SPEAKER_00 7:49

So what was your experience in the Anglican church in South Africa? How was that?

SPEAKER_02 7:56

So I went to a Catholic school.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:00

They tried to make me Catholic there. But I was I was very adamant I was an Anglican and we don't follow the Pope and English, because I have English stock, English and Scottish and Irish. And if I look back at it now, it was quite a I took the identity of it in the wrong way. I was very proud to be Anglican. I I I wouldn't say I'm proud to be Orthodox now. I'm humbled to be Orthodox. But it was more of a political, which it helped the country. The Anglican Church was amazing and instrumental in bringing down apartheid. My mentors, not my mentor, but my my role models, like Archbishop Desmond Tutu. The Nelson Mandela was Methodist, though, but the Anglicans like to say he was Anglican. And I it was a good source of direction for me. Well, I call him my Anglican spiritual father now. He's still a mentor to me. He's um Father Joe. And I want to make this clear that I'm not cross with the Anglican Church because later on, which we can get to, things happened in the Anglican Church which I just couldn't agree with. I couldn't stay on those terms. The Anglican Church molded me, it nurtured me. There's beautiful people in the Anglican Church. I love it for what it was. However, the cracks started to show and I couldn't remain. When you couple that with my experiences and my beliefs and my readings of the Orthodox Church and what was going on in the Anglican Church and what has gone on, I had to go.

SPEAKER_00 9:57

Sure. So fast forward a little bit, I understand you were ordained in the Anglican Church as a priest.

SPEAKER_02 10:04

Correction,

Calling To Ministry Through Rugby

SPEAKER_02 10:05

correction. So a lot of people think I'm a priest, and at my school we used to work, they some of them still call me father. And I no matter how many times I explained that this is not the fact, they would look at me and go, okay, thanks, Father. Bye-bye. I was a lay minister, as they call them in the equivalent to a reader, perhaps, in the Orthodox faith. I would be able to take the chalice. I could, I could, in communion, at the end, I could I could administer the chalice. I could take communion to the sick. I could read in church certain texts for lay ministers. I could baptize if the bishop allowed me to. But I was never ordained a priest. I was just licensed to be a lay minister in the Anglican church. And I became a chaplain, which maybe confuses things, but not all chaplains are priests, and not all priests are chaplains.

SPEAKER_00 11:05

So were you you were uh a chaplain in South Africa? You were in ministry in South Africa prior to coming to England?

SPEAKER_02 11:12

That's correct. That's when it all began, as a prep school uh chaplain. We call it a lay chaplain.

SPEAKER_01 11:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:19

So I was always a lay chaplain, I was never an ordained priest who was a chaplain. And it was Father Joe who who I worked with in South Africa. He was the head of the chaplain C and I assisted him before I came over.

SPEAKER_00 11:36

What was your call into ministry? What what initiated that that's a good thing?

SPEAKER_02 11:42

Yeah, I must tell you this. So it was when I when I finished school, last year of school, I remember watching the movie The Mission with Robert De Niro and thinking, I think I want to be a monk. Or a priest. So I went to Father Joe with us. I said, Father, I think I want to be a priest. I was 18. At the same time I had an opportunity an offer to go play rugby in France. And he knew this. And he said to me, Jared, if you if this calling is real, it'll never leave you. Go play rugby in France. I went to go play rugby in France, and here I am. In England, in the Orthodox Church. Yeah, I love I love Father Joe.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

So you went to play rugby?

SPEAKER_02 12:45

Yes. How was that? That was amazing, yeah, yeah. Humbling, and I was 18, and then straight into this men's rugby, the third division in France, a national one that's called in rugby, or no, sorry, it's called um Federal Un in French, Federal One. But then when you go from playing schoolboy rugby straight into against men men, I think my first game was against an Englishman who was in his 30s and had been around the block and he showed me a thing or two.

SPEAKER_00 13:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:19

Yeah. I had a very sore neck and back the next morning. Because I play hookah, which is right in the front of the scrum, and it was humbling and what a learning experience.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

You're still playing rugby.

SPEAKER_02 13:30

I played yesterday, yeah, and I'm feeling it.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

You're still young, uh Joan, you're still young. So what what was the I know we we we met you in September, but what was the catalyst, your move to England?

SPEAKER_02 13:49

So rugby also. I came over to play rugby for Cambridge by myself. Cambridge, not university, a rugby club town. I played two seasons and went home. That's when I met my wife.

SPEAKER_00 14:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:05

And then we we lived in South Africa for a bit, and then the club sort of called me back to come play one more season. And I said to my wife, come, let's let's go and see what happens, basically. Let's travel a bit while we're young. And that brought me back. And I was playing rugby. Then I then I eventually found a job and as assistant chaplain at Uppingham School in the Midlands. And uh another priest there who I love.

SPEAKER_00 14:35

Yeah. And you were there for for some years in Uppingham.

SPEAKER_02 14:39

Three years under yeah uh at Uppingham.

SPEAKER_00 14:42

Working with young adults?

SPEAKER_02 14:45

Uh this was a sorry, yes, uh it was uh secondary school. Secondary school. Yeah, 13 to 19. Coaching rugby, doing the chapels.

unknown 14:57

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 14:58

It was a very, very I look back at that time with joy. Yeah, it was lovely.

SPEAKER_00 15:04

We should mention your wife a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 15:06

Please. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:08

That's important. And you're and you're two wonderful children.

SPEAKER_02 15:10

Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

It's difficult. We don't have a camera, but you know, as soon as I mentioned your children, I saw this light come into your eyes.

SPEAKER_02 15:20

So you weren't looking at me when you said my wife, so No, no, this is true.

SPEAKER_00 15:24

The light, the light was there. I'm sure it was. How is fatherhood?

SPEAKER_02 15:31

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 15:32

How is husbandhood?

SPEAKER_02 15:33

I was saying to someone who's just and who learned that they're going to have a baby, God willing. Fatherhood is it's it's the best thing that's happened to me. It's such a high calling and a responsibility, but humbling as well, and such a gift, such how do I say that? Explain, like a joyous challenge, like a it's not easy, but it's wouldn't want it any other way. Beautiful to be a father, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:09

It's uh it seems to be uh to me to be a struggle. But a a joyous struggle.

SPEAKER_02 16:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:17

From the outside, certainly. So I think we'll speak a bit more about fatherhood, maybe and orthodoxy. Yeah. As we uh progress the interview a little bit, but so you came to England, you were playing rugby, you got a little chaplaincy in in the Midlands.

SPEAKER_02 16:35

Yeah. And then because I was an assistant chaplain, there was always the goal of becoming a chaplain.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

Right.

SPEAKER_02 16:43

Now many schools in England require you to be a priest, to be the head of the chaplaincy. Luckily for me, or blessed for me, was that there was a school here in East Sussex that didn't require that. There were they didn't mind that I wasn't a priest. And in fact, I think some when I was doing the interview, there was also there was a lay Catholic woman who was going for the job. So it was interesting and it was an opportunity for me just to progress, I suppose, in my career as a chaplain and move to East Sussex, near the sea, and beautiful downs.

SPEAKER_01 17:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:36

We uh we met some of your colleagues and friends at your baptism. Yeah. It was a joy to to meet them. Yeah. I wanted to ask you a little bit more about chaplaincy.

Chaplaincy In A Secular World

SPEAKER_00 17:51

Yeah. And what what has that brought to your spiritual life? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:59

I find I found it it it ironed or sharpened, if I can say that, for want of a better word, my my belief. Because there was non-beliefs, beliefs, different religions, apathy to religion, that you've got to deal with as a school chaplain in a secular institution. And I found that if I were going to talk about all of these things are equal, I found it would have, I think, confused young people even more to say, yeah, you could do that, why not? Because you feel like in a father's sermon today about feelings, you know, it's because it feels right doesn't mean it's right. And so this wide, as the gospels say, this wide gate is the way to destruction. Like, you know, all things are equal and it doesn't matter really what you believe. So it ironed that out for me. If I had to, I had to, if I wanted to be an anchor in the community, I needed God. And I needed the the the correct true path to God if I was going to be strong for these people. And not that I was gonna make them believe what I believed. That wasn't wasn't my job. My job was to strengthen and comfort people where they are. And eventually orthodoxy showed forth and was a a guiding light to the way it led me to Christ. Because let me just say to make this clear that my journey to orthodoxy was always about knowing and being closer to Christ.

SPEAKER_00 20:08

You mentioned briefly, and maybe this takes us back to that, that the Anglican Church there were there were some issues there. Um I don't know, I don't want to go too deep into that, but maybe if you want to just expand very briefly around what was the conflict? Maybe actually not so much in the external conflict, but in in yourself, you know, what was the we all have these spiritual conflicts uh with the world around us. Yeah. Um

When Churches Mirror The Culture

SPEAKER_00 20:36

I wonder if you could speak a little bit around that.

SPEAKER_02 20:39

I think it's exactly that, the conflict between the world around us and the truth. And I found that, let me speak broadly more so that we can be diplomatic here. Say a lot of churches were adapting worldly views. I always say this, I think Paul Kingsnorth, a great writer, says this. He says that churches are trying to placate or impress the world, the culture, while the culture and the world doesn't care about it. The culture and the world does not care about the church. And why are you trying to mirror these these ideologies or these beliefs? And then the this the this the disconnection in some churches are saying this, and then some churches are saying that within the same communion. And it didn't sit it didn't sit well with me. And also just to go to go to church and and listen to a sermon that I was struggling to say, well, where's where's Christ in that? Where is Christ in that sermon? This is I'm just talking personally. Those were big moments for me, I said and then I felt that the church and churches, it was all more about what the the people thought, not what the church thought, like what the priest was saying. And there wasn't authority and there wasn't guidance and there wasn't direction. And if there wasn't a good sermon or if the the there was too much incense or something, there was there was a problem. And uh Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

Thank you. I think it's very difficult, isn't it? In this modern world that we come in orthodoxy certainly to to a place of healing, to a hospital. And uh that is not always my experience in non-orthodox places. That um to go there for entertainment or uh to pass the time, but not really for the spiritual struggle which orthodoxy calls me to.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

So going back to your first experience of of orthodoxy, oriental orthodoxy with Pascal and his wife. Yeah. When was the next sort of experience for you after that? Was it a regular thing? Did you go often to to visit them? Did you attend the you were shaking your head?

SPEAKER_02 23:22

No. It sort of died out and I went to France.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:26

Because that was about that time, 1819, I went to France. And France, well, I couldn't find an Ethiopian Orthodox church and struggled to find an Anglican church, but I did. And I went to Paris every Sunday to it was called the American, the Anglican, the American Cathedral in Paris, which was as an Anglican or Episcopalian. But the town I lived in in France, this is quite also was very, very Muslim. A lot of people from North Africa and West Africa lived there. And I I talk about this a lot in my faith journey, is that uh I learnt a lot from those Muslims about how they fasted. So this may be maybe relative relevant because I remember going to get some meat one day and the butchers were closed. I said, Well, why are you close? It's like 12 o'clock on a on a Friday. They say, No, it's Ramadan, so we don't eat. And I said, Okay. And then it hit me, I was like, what am I doing about my faith? These people can be so faithful about what am I doing as a and I think that day I started, you know, practice the the the fasts a bit more. Which it's loosely, loosely taught in Anglicanism. But now coming into the Orthodox faith, it's not that loose.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

Quite. We've just been through Great Lent. Yeah. Exactly. You're feasting again until the Apostle Fast, but uh we shall have our experience of fasting shortly. Yeah. Again. So was your first re-encounter with Orthodoxy again in uh in England? Or did you experience Orthodoxy elsewhere prior to your to your move to East Sussex?

SPEAKER_02 25:13

Yes. Cause that, as I say, it never left me those uh experiences with the Oriental. I found Rugby, near the town of Rugby, as it were. That was the nearest Orthodox church. And then the they were doing um the service of the cross. Forgive me, what's the service uh the when the cross comes on to the middle of the church? It's just during Holy Week. It was this church in the middle of the cemetery, you know, and uh they obviously were using it or repurposed it. I walked through the cemetery and I went in, and then people were prostrating from the cross. That always, like especially in the the Oriental church, they wear the the men also wear these white prayer shawls, and then there's a lot there's prostration, frustration, and prostration, even on a Sunday. And just that that physical connection to prayer moved me. But that was one isolated, and I never went back to that church. I left because it was like an hour drive, and the Anglican church was a walking distance in the morning, so that was easier. But my wife and I also my wife is is Protestant, so we we tried to find a church where we both could worship together at that time. And I would I would in Cambridge, there's beautiful, there's two beautiful Orthodox communities, a Romanian one and and Russian, I think. And I would sneak out sometimes, sneak and and then go get some litigation or light a candle or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

So we we fast forward again to September. Um

Orthodoxy As An Immersive Home

SPEAKER_00 27:10

I know you had you had been to uh the local Greek church, the the Greek Orthodox Church. Yes. And then we met you quite soon after that. Yes. We spoke briefly about the catalyst of finding Christ or not finding Christ actually in your previous communion. Yes. How did that in your initial step towards orthodoxy, those initial visits, what was different?

SPEAKER_02 27:38

Yeah. Are you talking about the Oriental experiences in the or here now in September? It would be hard not to so the Greek church, Saint Mary Magdalene, that one. But before that, I must say I was in Eastbourne for that. And I think I was there for the Pentecost one, which was like four hours long. The kneeling prayers or something. Yeah, we kneeled and then uh just when you it it's there's something, Martin Shaw, another guy who I follow who became orthodox from paganism, Martin Shaw. I don't know if you know Martin Shaw, he's a storyteller. He says there's something happens when you when you push through that first hour or so and you're standing and you're paying attention and you're praying. Something emanates and you can see better, you can hear better, you can if you can, if you can pay that attention. I never had something like that in in uh in an Anglican church. I had lots of emotions in the Anglican church. I loved the hymns and it was beautiful and I loved that. But this was different. This was like I'm I'm communing with something that's emanating out of the service, out of not magic, but beauty. Like a like a scent from a rose. I was smelling, but I was near the rose. You know, the rose was there to be seen and touched. Because that's the Orthodox Church, isn't it? You can touch the icons, you can greet your greet your fellow worshippers, you can kiss the cross, you can kiss the priest's hand, smell the incense, hear, see, taste the communion. Although obviously didn't have communion in those days, but it was a different immersive experience, and I was it was like I was where I meant to be, like a belonging other than no other. But I'm I'm I'm I'm uh I'm weary to say it was like an ecstatic or like a emotional experience and feeling. Just a it was beautiful, yeah. And so, but I I I have to mention my brother Michael, who was at that Mary Magdalene church day I went, and then met him. He's looking over at me and he said, Come on, wrestle. But the best thing he said was come to Roco, come to the the church of the Saviour, most holy saviour, almost almost all merciful saviourville chapel. Come to that and have a look and and and and and and then here, and the rest is history and came and and I stayed.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

I also have to mention Michael because uh he was baptized the same day that you were. Yes. And we'll speak a bit about your podcast later, but uh you've done a podcast with him. Yeah, he describes his journey to orthodoxy. But he is uh an evangelist through through arm wrestle.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:45

Incredible. Great inspiration for for us, and especially for us orthodox to see someone so zealous and so yeah, so eager to be with Christ.

SPEAKER_01 30:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:58

Um, but also so eager to to share that message with others. I think um he's certainly a blessing for us, a miracle for us.

SPEAKER_02 31:06

That's for sure. Inspirational man.

SPEAKER_00 31:08

And I encourage if there are listeners to to go and listen to your podcast about uh your interview with him on your podcast because um yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:18

Yeah, shameless plug, yeah, the sunny banana.

SPEAKER_00 31:20

I mean, we have we will mention it later.

SPEAKER_02 31:22

The more people that hear that, his his testimony, I mean, as a short, and there's probably more to it, but just beautiful, just powerful.

SPEAKER_00 31:31

Yeah. He's a man full of love. So we met you, and uh at that time we were sort of starting the process of uh building a catechumen class. We're quite a new parish, as you know, and we hadn't had many catechumens before that sort of individuals. There's quite a group of you when you came.

SPEAKER_02 31:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:59

I wonder if you could speak a little bit about your journey. How was the so it was your journey towards baptism and experience maybe from day one? But what encouraged you to take that step? What encouraged you to start on that journey?

SPEAKER_02 32:14

Yeah. Well, the reason I went to the Greek church was to was to perhaps join their catechumen class because the connection with the Panzilemon church, and and there was the the two priests, and and they said, Well, go to Mary Magdalene and say you want to join. But then I obviously met Michael and then came to liturgy here. And at lunch that September, there was talk about we're gonna start a catechumen class. And I was just, I just felt right. I just felt I need to be here, I need to, I'll do it here, I'll I'll commit here. Sitting in that lovely garden at the back of St. Benedict's having a lunch, and then I remember Father Alexander coming to speak to me, and being both ex-Anglicans, and you know, there was a residence from day one with Father Alexander, you know. And I just said, No, I want to be here. And then meeting the people, the beautiful people that day. Just from just from the prayer when he stood up before lunch and we all prayed, and it's like my soul was longing for this, yeah. Yeah, for sure. And then Yeah, I I don't I don't quite it's a bit of a blur in terms of those early days, I must say. But then starting to worship here, because that's the that's I say to people now, I'm not gonna try and convert you to orthodoxy, but come and have a look. Come to our services. Before I used to be quite don't come to our services. Sorry. If you know what I mean. I don't know if you if you can if you can relate, but I say now I can I say just come. That's why I've invited so many people to my baptism because I saw it as a moment for them to see, come look. And so what I'm trying to say is the the the liturgy is where you actually learn about what the church is teaching. It's it's emanating from there, its teachings and and what it is about. And then to to sit with brothers and sisters and learn about Christ, and to understand that this this ancient road, this ancient road that's been walked by countless others, saints, and its connection to the Theotokos, and and which I've you know never had. Never had it. It was enlightening. I learned something every time, every lesson, thanks to you as well. You you gave some very insightful talks to us and and and you know guided us so well and such a blessed experience, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:12

And were there any sort of moments or experiences during that period that really stand out to you as maybe challenging or maybe a blessing?

SPEAKER_02 35:23

I think um I was in South Africa and a couple of us, the numbers would the numbers dwindled a little bit, didn't it? I mean it dwindled from the beginning. There were 20 odd of us, then it was nailed down to about 15 or 12. But there was a period where some of my brothers decided to look elsewhere for a little bit. That was challenging. And it and it and it's I must mention this because am I here because of my brothers solely because they also want it? Is this something just because we as brothers want to do this, or are we here to encounter the the risen Lord and have a relationship with Christ? So that challenged me to obviously choose the latter. You know, I'm here to and if they don't want to get baptized or go through it, I I'm staying. Thank God. Thank God they came back. Thank God they came back. And we all got baptized together, so that was beautiful, beautiful. I think the moment I told my family was a challenge. They're not orthodox. And being removed, because some context here, my um my wife and children aren't here in England with me. They live in South Africa, and so do my parents. So it felt a bit disconnected to them, and all of a sudden I'm telling them, I'm joining this church, and also my name, I'm gonna be baptized Jonah. And that was a point of difficulty challenge, and still is, to be honest. But luckily, God has blessed me with a with a trip to Athos where monks have given me some beautiful insights into all of this, and and you helped me very gently with that, and yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:28

Yeah, I

Athos As A Thin Place

SPEAKER_00 37:29

thought you mentioned Athos. I wanted to ask you some questions about that. My experience of Athos is uh apologies to the female listeners because they they aren't able to visit there, but it's I think the case with many other mon monasteries, um particularly the ancient ones, that you step off the boat in Daphne and and or or at one of the monasteries, and tangibly the air feels different. It's very difficult to describe, but there's a tangible change. That faith, the prayers of thousands of thousand years seem to it's not like an emotional feeling, but it's like you could you could touch them in the air. I don't know if that's your experience about things.

SPEAKER_02 38:13

I remember you said that in uh catechumen class once before I went. And in the Celtic tradition they talk about thin places where the air between heaven and earth is so thin that they touch it, and that's it. That's what I felt and experienced. It pushed me my head into my heart. As I didn't I wrote a lot, I prayed a lot. Which was the saint that said you need to prayer is when you take what's in your head and you bring it down to your heart. Callistos away, maybe said something like this in one of his books. And that was I was trying to live in my heart and and and see other people with my heart and worship with my heart. Not think too much about logical things and logical things and uh rational things, but just to and then having an eight-hour vigil standing. Well, I never stood the whole way, I must confess. I had some rest, but eight hours of a vigil, and then the communion came out eventually about 6 a.m. in the morning or 5 a.m. in the morning, the light was coming through the windows. The aesthetic was just beyond this world, and the time, and I I I forgot about time. I didn't know what the time was or where where I was exactly, but I was somewhere beautiful and and uh mysterious at the same time, but it was in right in front of my eyes.

unknown 39:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:52

It's my experience too that eternity in the moment.

SPEAKER_02 39:56

Yeah. It's uh that's a good way.

SPEAKER_00 39:58

What a miracle, isn't it? So did you meet any elders? Do you have any experience with monks there?

SPEAKER_02 40:04

Yeah, so a young monk actually, Eftemi, which is the Romanian for I can't say the Greek Efthemius, Efthemius, there you go. Ftemi was how he said his name. And he used to play rugby.

unknown 40:17

Right.

SPEAKER_02 40:17

So how does this work out? The only monk that can speak English in the whole monastery played rugby as well, you know. And we spoke and we spoke, and he told me about Jonah, you know, and he said things like when you start saying the Jesus prayer after your bat after you baptize, you'll see, because you then you'll have the spirit of God, you'll have Christ will have given you his spirit. And now that might that that that that that might sound scandalous to Protestants' ears, you know, obviously the Spirit of God is in you to them, but I now that I've baptized and the awareness and my prayer life has gone up a notch, let's just say that. You know, I just like like the I'm more aware of my sin now and I'm more conscious of it than ever before. And the battle is more real than before. It's not like you got baptized and now it's you're saved and over now. But it's that's when the battle begins, you know, or the many battles. The war is always a spiritual warfare going on, and uh but there's battles how the battles began. So and then the father in the uh St Andrews Skeet was an English priest, priest monk. And we spoke a lot about the name, the name change and family, and he was saying how if you make a point of people calling you Jonah all the time, that you are not changed, you haven't repented, because that's what your name should remind you of. Your repentance, especially Jonah. And you haven't changed, then you'll that that that name change is empty and useless. So I don't force people to call me Jonah ever since that day. I try I think it's within our catechumen class, the the newly baptized, we correct each other because it's just like a thing now, you know, yeah, to keep us, you know, awake.

Baptism And The Jesus Prayer

SPEAKER_00 42:32

So I thought we would speak a little bit about baptism. Yeah. And maybe I overpromised. But before your baptisms, I said to everyone in the catecheman class that obviously there is an ontological change when you're baptized. You die and become a new man, your life begins, and that people you would feel uh tangibly different in your spiritual life, especially your prayer life. Has that been the case, do you think? What was your experience of baptism that day and how has that manifested in the weeks since?

SPEAKER_02 43:14

Yeah, that I as I was saying before about the just the awareness of the battle has become so succinct, so clear. I think before I was ah, yeah, there's a I can wait later, you know. And then what brother FTM is saying about the Jesus prayer, it's staying with me, man. It's like that's a change. And uh every heartbeat is a prayer now. And when when when temptation I'm not saying I see I I fail all I've failed since my baptism. Thousands of times. But what I'm saying is there's this shield when you can say that when you can remember the Jesus prayer that it's that's the prayer of the heart. It's just ironclad stuff if you can if you can stay with it and it can protect you. I think the the there's a force now pulling you towards the good, like I've never felt before. Pulling me towards Christ. To involve him in everything, every thought and every act. And again, I've failed to do that though. But it's it's it's it's it's different as as an adult, you know, because you you as a baby gets baptized, then you they get taught, they they start afresh. It's like that again, you know. It feels like I'm how old am I? I'm about two weeks old now. You know, Jonah's two weeks old. I've got I've got so much to learn as well. So it's humbling, and it's but I also have so much more confidence in talking about Jesus Christ to other people. I mean, I've been a chaplain, that's what I what I did. But I must admit that at times in my early days as a chaplain, I took that road, that that that wide road, and say, yeah, Buddha. Talk about anything except Christ. If you look back. But now it's Christ is the only thing that matters. Christ is the center.

SPEAKER_00 45:53

I think this is we had this conversation uh with uh another member of the congregation at lunch. Sometimes we are so scared to be offensive. Yeah. That uh we don't share the gospel with somebody. Yeah. And uh this is uh we're called to share the gospel. Yeah. We're not called to not offend. You know, sometimes it's better to to offend and share the gospel than than not, I think. That's difficult. In the modern world. It's interesting when you said something very beautiful though that every heartbeat can become a prayer. And uh this is uh the encounter with Christ is is everything.

SPEAKER_02 46:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:44

Um going back to what you said about looking for Christ in everything.

SPEAKER_02 46:49

Uh I quote I quote Michael again, my brother. Yeah, who says in in the podcast we chose we say, like well Father, Father, that's actually comes from Father Alexander that orthodoxy Christianity is about becoming human. And it doesn't mean you get baptized and you and now you're the super human who can't make mistakes. You become so human that mistakes are there. But the gate, you know where the gate is to return. You're like the prodigal son every day. That goes through your your you're like that every day. I'm like Jonah every day. I haven't I've been spat out on a new shawl, but it back into the belly of the beast, back out again. It's a constant, this is the constant battle, but you know the route to becoming human. You know, you know where to go now. And you live your week from communion to communion, like this is the start of the week now. And you begin, end your week how you began it. And if I need to, if I'm gonna have communion on Sunday next week, am I gonna be worthy? Am I gonna be worthy to receive that communion? How can I live now to receive the next communion? Which I never thought of that in in my previous Christianity upbringing, you know. It was more like live like I want, and I'll have communion, and then it'll be okay.

SPEAKER_00 48:26

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 48:28

It's like you love God now to give him that honor of your discipline, your love, your duty, like the Merbearing woman. You know, do your duty, love people, and receive that communion in that state.

SPEAKER_00 48:50

We have to keep cutting out my style ground then. I should have even more uh bad London dinner. I'll have a steak this evening. I

Why He Took The Name Jonah

SPEAKER_00 49:01

wanted to ask you about Jonah.

SPEAKER_02 49:03

Yeah why Jonah I think I think I've sort of mentioned it a little bit in terms of being a chaplain, being this like Christian chaplain, but not talking about the truth. And that could have been forced by culture or or the school I was working in, or maybe my perception, my failing, my cowardice as a Christian, and it that sort of go go go to the people in Nineveh and tell them that they're sinning. No, I'll run away. I've been running away from that, and coming into orthodoxy has taken me to the beast, taken me down there into the belly of my sins and my disobedience. And again, like I said, it has shown me the way out of the beast on relying on Christ and calling upon him in the Jesus prayer and the sacraments of the church and the communing with beautiful people like you and worshiping. So it's like I just related to Jonah and his experience, and I started to pray. So even when I thought about this, I started to pray and ask him to intercede for me and my baptism. And that is the answer, I think. And a lot of people think that because I played rugby, it was my it was Jonah Lom, who was an amazing rugby player. He was the player that got me to play rugby, and it just so happens that his name was also Jonah, but this is the real reason. That and as I say, it's if he's been into the beast, I need his help. I need Jonah's help because he's he's got another beast with the help of Christ.

SPEAKER_00 51:18

I think that's very beautiful. No, I trying to explain to Cat humans why they should take a name is sometimes difficult. Yeah. Especially for those who aren't from a background in which saints existed. Yeah. And I had many questions, and I think Father Alexander also had many questions about why do we need to have a relationship with the saints? Yeah. I think your response to my previous question answers that.

SPEAKER_02 51:50

It's yeah, you know, in the prayer book, you you have the you have the prayer of your saint, and then intercessor of my soul, help me. It's just beautiful now when I pray that and I have an icon of Joan in the corner. It's just it's just so powerful and and uplifting. And I'll tell you a story about when I was in Thessaloniki at the cathedral there, St. Demetrius, and I was just kissing an icon, and there was a boy, I don't know, seven years old, also kissing the same icon, it was a massive icon of the theater, of course. And I got quite emotional because I felt we're kissing our family. We're kissing, I don't know this boy, you know, but we are kissing something we're connecting with that's ours. Us. And that's the saints around us we're seeing in the church now as we speak. That they are there for us to encourage us. And just like if I, my favorite footballer was Eric Cantanor. They want to be a great footballer, I need to play like him, I need to do more things like him. Well, the saints are there like that, you know. How do you be a good person? How do you be a good Christian? Follow the saints, because they'll show you Christ, and Christ gives us the saints to do that to get closer to him.

SPEAKER_00 53:12

It's wonderful.

Practical Steps For Inquirers

SPEAKER_00 53:15

I think we have a lot of inquirers now. My experience of orthodoxy in the last five years has been uh hugely different. I don't know, pre-COVID, I think orthodoxy was uh was still a mystery to the outside world, you know. But now I see a lot of inquirers, particularly online. Uh I wondered if you had any reflections for them. You know, having gone through that process.

SPEAKER_01 53:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:48

What are your recommendations for those interested?

SPEAKER_02 53:50

Yeah. I mentioned this before, I think this might not be the right answer for many people out there, but come and see. Come speak to Orthodox people on the ground. Because there might be a lot of tension sometimes on the internet or things that are hyped up a bit, and there's a lot of us versus them dialogue. I would say come and speak to orthodox people on the ground, come to a service or two and then have more questions, speak to the priest, introduce yourself, and that I think is the best thing to do. Second to that would be read some great books on on of from Orthodox writers. I think Bishop Callistas, where's Anglican? I mean, here we go. Orthodox Church and the Orthodox Way. I think he was Anglican anyway. I think that's why that's pop. He was Anglican as well. Those two books were very formative for me. And there's some really good, there's some really good online stuff. Father Stephen Freeman has a wonderful Substack, what do you call it? Well, it's not on Substack, but a free blog that he sends out. You just subscribe and it's free. And he sends it once a week. Glory to God for all things, it's called. And he's he's brilliant at sort of talking about the current culture and orthodoxy and bringing those things together, making sense. Then the two guys I would I would recommend is Paul Kings North and Martin Shaw. These two guys were pagans before, because this always interested me. Like, how could you be like how could you be a pagan believing in natural gods and and trees and green stuff and then find Christ? It's incredible, their stories. So Martin Shaw and Paul, Kings North. But again, the top, the top thing is come to the church and see, come to a few services, stand at the back. No one's gonna ask you why you're there, no one's gonna put give you a pamphlet and say, come to the whatever later. They might invite you to come eat some amazing food afterwards, but go and go and and then speak to people on the ground. I mean, our brother Michael, who's spoken about, has an incredible story of conversion. And that's sort of my advice. And pray, of course. So pray about it. If you're inquiring about ask God as this, ask God for the right path, the right church, the right people. Through his mercy, he'll grant you that grace.

SPEAKER_00 56:46

I'm always reminded of the two things in the gospel of Christ said come and see.

SPEAKER_02 56:52

That's it.

SPEAKER_00 56:53

And uh it's really all we need to say to inquires uh at first. And also, as you said, knock and it will be opened unto you. Yeah. Ask and it will be given.

unknown 57:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:07

Sometimes we're not bold enough to do those things. Yeah. And when we are, we get the answer we need. We'll get whatever we need. So I have to look at my questions.

SPEAKER_02 57:21

Oh, mine's died.

SPEAKER_00 57:23

You're dead?

SPEAKER_02 57:24

Yeah. We're gonna have to go on your recording.

SPEAKER_00 57:26

Right, let's hope it makes the cut. Yeah. I wanted to speak just about two final things.

The Sunny Banana Podcast Purpose

SPEAKER_00 57:31

The first is about your about your podcast.

SPEAKER_02 57:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 57:36

It's been a joy for me every week or two weeks when you release uh an episode to listen. And it's great we have a little WhatsApp group, prayer group, yeah. Share each other's prayer needs so we can pray for each other. And uh you always post in there, and it always enlivens me to reflect upon the topic that you discussed. Maybe you can tell us a little bit about your podcast, a little what called you to do it, and maybe the future of it, what do you envisage for it going forward?

SPEAKER_02 58:09

Yeah. I'm glad I'm glad that you that you enjoy it, brother. That's fantastic to hear. So the reason I started the podcast was actually to have a weekly thought for the the school children that I ministered to at the school. And my first ever podcast was with a rabbi in Florida over a Zoom, talking about matters of faith and why is faith important? So I guess my initial reason starting it was to talk, to bring faith onto the table. The the topic of faith. Why is faith, does faith make a difference to your life, what you believe, and so on? And how did you become how did you become religious or have the faith that you have today? Why do you believe the things that you do? So I was interested in this thing. That topic. And it and then I went through a stage of because I did a course online with Martin Shaw about storytelling, and then I went through a phase of telling stories. The half girl is one of the stories, and the legend of Saint Mackay that Martin Shaw tells, it's just incredible stories that just help us along the way. And then it's it's it's changed into a place that is actually exploring Christianity, really, and and and truth and the way people come to faith in the Christian sense. I think it's a a platform for people to, like Michael has done, is to inspire others further on their journey of faith. I wanted to inspire, I wanted to help people, give them something to think about, something to guide them. The more it's it's more of a guidance for me as well. You know, these things I'm saying are more actually guiding me, if that makes sense. I do have a vision of it being linked with helping young, not just young men, but young people find meaning and purpose in their lives with all the conflicting messages that are going on in the world, and to say, here, here, here it is. Don't overcomplicate things. It's there for us. Pure and beautiful. Not my message, it's not my message, it's a passed down message from God to us.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:55

Yeah, well, it's working for me anyway.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:58

Selfishly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Praise God.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:02

The other thing I wanted to ask you about is you're setting up a new business.

Building Java Biltong With Faith

SPEAKER_02 1:01:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:07

And taste is some of your own Java built on. It's delicious. But maybe I want to ask you, I mean outline your business because I think that's an important thing. But also Orthodoxy as a business owner. Bring Christ into your business. I know this is something that I see you doing a lot. Yeah. And maybe you can speak on that because I think that's something it's a struggle in our 21st 21st century society. Yeah. Um, to bring faith into our work. So be something if you can add mine out, that would be great.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:49

So as I say at Java is the business's name, Java Biltong. Biltong being the the air-dried, cured beef snack of South Africa. And I say at Java, God, faith, and family matter. And I'm not ashamed to put that out there. My my the name of the the business Java is my two daughters' names put together. And one means light of God and one means the sweetness of God in Hebrew. And the flying bull of the business is Saint Luke. So Saint Luke is a flying bull. He should be somewhere here, but maybe he's still coming. I heard the the gospel writer Saint Luke also is the patron saint of meat cutters.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:45

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:47

And also on the bull, there's the Byzantine cross branded. And that just pays homage to the faith, to Saint Luke. And also in the modern world, that's irreligious more and more. Family has taken a knock. Like fa families, you know, and and so I say fatherhood was is the most amazing thing ever. And motherhood is beautiful. I think family should be more uh how do I say uh marketed, if you can say that. Promoted, promoted, there's the word. So it's a family business in that sense that and then I was inspired by biblical things, biblical readings in Exodus. In the morning, you shall have honey, in the evening, you shall have meat in Exodus 16, 8. And so that's why we we make bilton and our whole thing about if our bodies are also part of uh if we have healthy bodies, it helps the spirit. And we have a you know community of strong, strong people doing arm wrestling here and and the protein and and all that. So my my slogan is strength in food, purpose you can taste. So it's about also not just putting anything in our bodies because we need food. It's more like what do we eat and and will this food benefit my my family life, my spiritual life, my physical life, putting in good stuff. One of the products we want to make is Ezekiel bread, and that's that's come straight from God, the the recipe to the prophet Ezekiel. And this bread was supposed to sustain him for it did sustain him for 390 days, and then he was gonna turn on his other side and eat this bread, and that's all all that he ate. And still today, science is baffled by this recipe having a full amino acid complex. Um, so Ezekiel bread is one of the things. And obviously, I I want this business to help the community once it starts going properly.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:07

I think it's helping the community already. Well, I pray. Praise God. Well, did you have any closing remarks? I I could probably speak to you for another three or four hours.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:19

Yeah, I could stay uh also.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:21

Uh maybe we have to do a a round two.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:24

Maybe.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:24

Three or four. But uh, if you had anything that uh you know I've missed with my inadequate questioning.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:30

Oh.

Misconceptions And Final Encouragement

SPEAKER_02 1:05:31

I just want to thank you and everything you are to us, you know, and everything you do to the for the church and the community and this this beautiful chat we've had. I think what what we haven't said is what I would like to say is when I looked at orthodoxy from the outside, I had presumptions, I had judgments about oh, they're so strict, and you have to do this, and you have to bow and you have to do this at certain times. And and and all these rules but I've come into it and I've understood that it's not like that. You know no one's no one's trying to look up on you and say you're not you're not supposed to do that because people are worried about and concerned about their own worship. It's always a misconception about how rigid it is. It's not rigid at all. There's such relaxed, beautiful, joyful people here making mistakes, doing things well. But on the Murbearing Sunday the mothers, the women, that that's beautiful what Father said today about just doing your duty and loving faithfully and trying to do the right thing trying to do it well is what we do. But we don't we don't do it we we don't do it well every time it's not perfect but it's that it was that spirit that led the woman to the to the tomb when the men had fled. No one was there they were all scared but it was this duty and I think it was shmemon Alexander Shmoemon which I say is also a good person to read all his books is if a if a child is irritating you during the liturgy or the service pray and the child will stop irritating you simple and people don't people think oh you think prayers magic and the and the child stops irritating you and stops talking. No the child carries on talking it's your you sit you standing there and you worshiping and that's all that matters. Don't worry about what the other person is doing you know and that's beautiful that's beautiful that changed a lot for me and then I used to be quite conscious of what I was doing and then how I was singing and all this stuff. It's not a performance it's not a performance it's coming here and and worship the best you can and pay attention as best you can and you will be changed. You will be transformed your life will change that's a fact maybe this is not right but it's like continual prayer it's worship and prayer is different but it's like praying all the time if you can pray all the time your life is changed. Try to stay in that attention Martin Shaw calls it pray attention pray attention and it's beautiful it's beautiful come and see come and see I would say absolutely well thank you thank you for your time today.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:55

Thank you brother thank you for your inspiration I think I don't want to get too emotional but uh it's very easy to become complacent in the Christian life. Yeah and have the blessing of and the experience of uh meeting you and the other catechumens and as a group you've changed my life because you inspire me not to be complacent. I see your zeal and I see your desire for Christ. And it inspires me. So thank you very much.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:26

Praise God.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:27

Please pray for me a sinner and thank you for your time.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:31

Thank you