# 48 | A young Afrikaner becomes Greek Orthodox PART 1

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You can’t argue someone into the Orthodox Church, but you can invite them to come and see and that invitation changes everything. We sit down with Nectarios Otto, a chanter we met at the Greek Orthodox Church in Pretoria, to talk about what happens when ancient faith meets modern hunger in South Africa, and why repentance and obedience are not harsh ideas but the doorway into real spiritual life.<br><br>We also get practical about Orthodoxy beyond Sunday. Nectarios shares the story behind Prodromos Orthodox Goods, a small icon and devotional project born from visits to Mount Athos and monasteries in northern Greece. It’s a conversation about gratitude, hospitality, and the very real need for Orthodox icons and books for families, converts, and lifelong faithful who want their homes to reflect their prayer. Along the way we touch on calendars, parish culture, and what it means for Greek communities to welcome a growing wave of English-speaking newcomers.<br><br>Then we go personal. From Dutch Reformed roots and contemporary church life to catechism and baptism in the Greek Church, Nectarios explains the quiet sense of “there must be more” that pushed him towards something older and deeper. We close with the saints, especially Saint Nectarios, including a striking miracle story from South Africa and a reflection on why the saints feel present in Orthodox Christianity rather than locked in the past.<br><br>If you’re curious about Orthodoxy, icons, Mount Athos, or the search for the ancient Church in a modern world, listen now, share it with a friend, and leave us a review so more people can find the conversation.

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Transcript

Welcome And Meeting Nectarios

SPEAKER_00 0:06

Sunny Bonani. Welcome to the Sunny Banana. I see you. Thank you for tuning in today to uh a fantastic and special episode today. Today I have uh Nectarios Otto. Is that correct? That's correct. Nectarios Otto, and what a name. And the name will explain a lot of things in this in this video, in this episode today. And Nectarios is with me today. I met uh Nectarios at the Greek Orthodox Church in Pretoria. And it's hard to miss Nectarios because he is a are you a reader, Nectarios? I'll hand over because people don't want to listen to me. People want to want to hear about you. Are you a reader or or are you just a chanter? I don't say just a chanter, but that's very no no no no.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

Firstly, thanks for having me, Jared or Jonah. It's nice to be here with you. And it was always a pleasure seeing you around whenever you visit South Africa. And the first meeting, I think it was during Lent, the one year. It was for one of the Friday night services, the salutations of the Mother of God. So, yeah, anyway, so actually, no, not a tonsured reader. I feel like the Greek church is a little bit more, I almost want to say, lax when it comes to these things. I was just kind of thrown into the deep end, and before I knew it, I was chanting. So not tonsured or anything of that. Look, properly, I should be, but I for now I'm just doing obedience and you know, whatever, whatever comes next. So yeah, I am a chanter. I'm not I'm not really educated in Byzantine notation or music. Basically, all I do is just what I know. And uh, you know, from here and being at church, you know, for almost 10 years now, so I'm kind of winging it. Um, but with God's help, we we're doing well and we're getting better, and there's other young guys helping me out, and you know, so yeah, we've got

Chanter Life And Orthodox Calendars

SPEAKER_01 2:10

a good thing going, thank God.

SPEAKER_00 2:13

Oh man, thank God. Yeah, so yeah, I there's a lot to talk about today, but I think they sort of pivot around these these themes. So orthodoxy is very important to the sunny banana, obviously central, and your your journey to orthodoxy is your surname. Your surname's gonna come up, Otto, your your your your birth name, Crano, and those South Africans and rugby fans among us will will it will be ringing bells there of a certain age, that name. Um and perhaps just like uh yeah, some uh some books. We can talk about some books because I've got a book uh next to me called Everyday Saints. Father Alexander here at our church has this copy, and I asked him for it today because you gave this copy to me last uh August. You you you you you lent it to me kindly and it was a beautiful and it is a beautiful book. So, but yeah, and also Prodromos, what's the full name of your business?

SPEAKER_01 3:18

So it's Prodhromus Orthodox Goods. Yeah, yeah, kind of a small project that I started here, a little bit of a side hustle while I finish up my studies. So, yeah, Prodromos is the Greek title for the honorable for St. John the Baptist, who I consider as my patron for the business. So I dedicated it to him, but we'll get to that later as well. There's also a story connected to that.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

Yeah, beautiful. Yeah. And I can uh attest to the the great work. You you kindly gave me a beautiful icon of Jonah, the my my baptismal saint. Um yeah, beautiful. Is that what I call it? Sorry, I'm new to orthodoxy, you know that. Um I'm actually new to orthodoxy because being baptized on the 11th of April, my baptismal saint. What do I say? It's how what do you say? Because you Nicaragua. So what do you is that your church name?

SPEAKER_01 4:09

Is that your Yeah, it's your baptismal name, it's your patron saint. I think that's the correct title. Yeah, it's your it's your it's the name that you took in baptism after a specific saint. Yeah. Yeah, so Prophet Jonah, your patron, or your namesake, whatever you want to call it.

SPEAKER_00 4:27

Your namesake, your namesake, yeah, yeah. I don't know what to do when I come back to South Africa because here obviously I'm in the road core calendars three 13 days out from the Greek church, and either I celebrate two names days at the Greek church, and then go two weeks later to the Russian Orthodox one in Madrid. Yeah. Two Christmases.

SPEAKER_01 4:53

I mean, you could do that, you know, like some of the spiritual fathers on the holy mountain, you know, they go on and off all the time. They've got spiritual children in the mainland. And, you know, if you think like figures of Elder Ephraim of Arizona, he was on Mount Athos. But he used to go to America, and sometimes he used to do certain feasts out in the world, and then when he gets to Mount Athos, it's back by 13 days, and then he does the feast again. So it's a good thing. Why not? If you've got the opportunity, there's no reason not to celebrate twice.

SPEAKER_00 5:21

So yeah, you can definitely do that. Yeah.

A Gospel Reading On Repentance

SPEAKER_00 5:26

I wanted to do something today because of uh our orthodoxy central is read read uh from the book of the gospel according to Saint Matthew, a very short uh reading for today now in our in our church. So if you just uh won't mind, it's uh chapter 16. I've already lost it. Chapter 16, 11, 16 to 20, sorry. But to what shall I liken this generation? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to their companions and saying, We played the flute for you and you did not dance, we mourned to you and you did not lament. For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say he is a demon. He has a demon. The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they saw they say, Look, a glutton and a wine buyer, a friend of tax collectors and sinners, but wisdom is justified by her children. Then he began to rebuke the cities in which most of his mighty works had been done because they did not repent. And that just uh there's a lot of orthodoxy happening right there in that in that reading, isn't it? There's John the Baptist, you who you you mentioned about Prodromos. Prodromos. Well, okay, let's start, let's start

Why Prodromos Orthodox Goods Began

SPEAKER_00 6:39

there then. Tell us uh how you got into this business and the story behind your your work.

SPEAKER_01 6:47

Yeah, look, so obviously, South Africa, we're quite far removed from anything orthodox. I mean, thank God for the Greeks, they built plenty of churches. We have a large Greek and Cypriot community here. And so, I mean, Johannesburg, Gao Teng probably has about 25 churches, I almost want to say. So, Joburg, I mean, wherever you are, Joburg, you're about like 15 minutes away from a Greek church, right? But unfortunately, it still mainly only caters to the Greeks. They haven't really gotten that, I almost want to say, that missionary spirit that we see in Rokor and uh some of the other jurisdictions that are really doing amazing work catering to many newcomers, which we are also seeing here. I mean, constant baptisms, constant inquirers, like it's just never-ending. It's incredible. So, yeah, there was a big need for orthodox stuff. You know, people want icons, people want books, you know, things that will help them in their faith, you know. And yeah, normally you can get people who are going to Greece to bring back stuff for you, but no one here is actually putting in the effort to do something. So it's quite an interesting story how it started. So I visited the Holy Mountain a few times, and there's another monastery in northern Greece, which is dedicated to St. John the Forerunner. It's an ancient 13 monastery, uh, third 13th century monastery, sorry, you know, and I've been making small icons and small pendants and things. And whenever I go to the monastery, it's a female monastery. I've got some friends whose sister is a nun there. You know, I always feel bad staying at the monasteries because they open their doors to you and they obviously don't accept payment or whatever. And I'm still a young student, I can't always give them a bunch of cash to say thank you. So I would make them these things, you know, and some of the nuns actually told me, they're like, look, you've got something good going on here. Why don't you start doing this in South Africa? So it was with their encouragement that I started this. And I thought because they encouraged me, I'll kind of give honor to their patron Saint, to Saint John the Forerunner, and dedicate the business to him. So that's why it's named Brother Mus. Yeah, so that's it. And I've been busy with that kind of while I finish my studies, just as a little bit of a side hustle. But it's very rewarding and knowing that you know icons are going into people's homes, you know, like you've got I've got so many people from Russian to Greek to newcomers, like everyone's interested. So thank God. And I hope to see it grow and uh yeah, we'll see where it goes.

SPEAKER_00 9:17

We'll pray for that, brother. Yeah, that's beautiful. Yeah, I mean, yeah. I was gonna ask in yeah, because people ask me, you're going back to South Africa. Our church is very mixed. Uh, we've got maybe 10 Russians, Ukrainians, and then there's Latvians, and then there's Romanians, although the Romanians have a very strong community on England, so there's a lot of Romanian churches, and they they normally go there. But then half of it's British, English, me, white, South African. They go, How are you gonna, you know, carry on church? They because they think South Africa, and they they think I said, Don't worry, the Greeks are there, the Greeks have have uh done very good work in the past and there's one Russian Orthodox Church in Midran, so we're gonna make it work somehow. You would you went to Mount Dathos. I went I I went once as a as a cumin last this year, sorry, this February, and you reminded me of a story about the pay, you know, the you know, you feel bad that you can't can't give them enough money or any money, you know. And then but but one morning I I I wanted a coffee and I wanted to draw money because they had a they had a shop there, and I said, could I could I get money from you and then I'll buy a coffee? And the monk just gave me five pounds, like without and I went, Hold on, and he was like and then I just cried in my in my in my cell as it was, just uh just beautiful, very small, very small, five pounds, you know, but it was just a beautiful thing. And uh one thing very very typical they'll do stuff like that. Uh let me get to my question. Sorry, I'm boring everybody. No, no, the uh in in even in South Africa you say there's a there's quite a hunger for this this this this ancient faith that we that we are involved in

Welcoming Newcomers With Humility

SPEAKER_00 11:11

now. This um you say you know, because you you said the earlier about the the the Greeks are not don't have that that zeal of of say Rokor or the mission spirit, which which orthodoxy is very different to evangelical Christianity. It doesn't really go out on the streets and bang bang the drum, but it does live it, it does live it and it draws people in in a different way. Is there that sort of because we had 11 baptized of 25 to 14 in that age rate?

SPEAKER_01 11:44

Amazing. Yeah, look, you know, I think I think back to the days when I came to the faith, which we'll probably get to, I was still a young teenager, and I mean the only non-Greeks that were in the church were non-Greeks who married Greeks who had to become Orthodox. So I mean, there wasn't even a little bit of a community of non-Greek or non-ethnic newcomers to Orthodoxy. I don't like the term convert, you know, because it's I'm Orthodox. That's how I like to identify, you know, and look, God bless the Greeks, you know, if it weren't for them, we wouldn't have churches. I do think some communities are a bit more like mission-oriented, if I can put it that way, where they really do have the initiatives and the resources to deal with newcomers, you know. But I really think, you know, I had a meeting with our president. So in in South Africa, the churches are kind of divided into Hellenic communities, which is almost like an umbrella term for the church. But normally you get the Hellenic community of Pretoria or the Hellenic community of Germaston and Johannesburg, you know, so it's kind of the church and the Hellenic community. They do the cultural stuff and all of that. But I had a meeting with our uh with our president the other day, and I told him, I said, look, you know, you guys need to realize that in 20 years, the church isn't going to cater to just Greeks, it's probably gonna cater to majority non-Greeks. And I was like, don't be offended by this, because I know some of them could, you know, the you know, their pride could get a could get the better of them, you know, because for them it's it's their Greek heritage and all of that. And surprisingly, he said, look, Nectarius, I know this. I don't even think in 20 years, I think in 10 years. So I'm like, okay, well, I don't have to tell you anything, you know. You know, but thank God, you know, I think if there's a willingness, and I think if God has really, you know, opened the doors for someone to find orthodoxy, you'll push it through and you'll you'll be there. It's very important to approach it with humility and not get there and expect things to go your way, or like, oh, they should do more English, or they should, you know, give me attention or this or that. That's not how, yeah, it's not there to coddle us, it's there to challenge us to be committed and then take it from there, and the good things and blessings will come in due time.

SPEAKER_00 14:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, like like I was like our reading this morning said, you know, until they repent, and and and I've learned a lot in the three months. I've been orthodox for two months, and about and you said in the beginning, obedience. And I'm not going to church to get something from God, I'm not going to what can I get today? What can I get? What what message can I receive? Although on some level that's true, but what can I give in obedience and repentance your repentance is like the key the key to heaven? It's like you what's beautiful about the Orthodox vision is you're actually you're witnessing a foretaste of paradise of what it's going to be like or or is like 100% supper, you know, that divine banquet with with the Lord, and that's that's what you need. You're going there to to get to to to get what your soul needs. Yes, it it's not like me and they should put that icon there or move that and you know it's and and that's what I've found in orthodoxy, and it's very refreshing actually. Um but it's humans, it's hu it's full of humans. Like after liturgy, there's talks about the math and ideas and you know, and you go, well, you know, that isn't an old orthodox joke about how many orthodox it takes to change a light bulb. You know, remind me again how many orthodox does it take to change a lifeboat. I don't know, you tell me change.

SPEAKER_01 15:46

Oh, there you go. There you go.

SPEAKER_00 15:48

It's this, it's this, it's like, okay, we have this, we have our ancient ways, we have our cultural connection to that, and I'm gonna speak to a guy also, an Australian guy who's who's who's baptized Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, but only now in his late late 30s has he come back to the church and renewed that. And he said to me, He said, guys like us who've just been baptized, come with we've researched it, we've looked into it, we've we come for a reason, we've come wanting nourishment, and we we know why we're there, which challenges those who have been there since the beginning, and it's just rotal, it's just become you know what they do on a Sunday. It must it must infuse your whole life. So it's actually a great time, it's an intric, exciting time.

From Afrikaner Roots To Orthodoxy

SPEAKER_00 16:37

So let's let's let that use that as a segue into the church, then now. So Nectarios was Crano, and I suppose that's a good introduction to say to to to ask you as a you know an Afrikaans, were you Dutch Reformed?

SPEAKER_01 16:55

I was baptized as a child, but we mainly went to non-denominational contemporary churches, if you know what I mean. So yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_00 17:04

Yes, there's a it's there's a lot of that in South Africa in in all the different cultures. Yeah, take us through as much detail as you can and what you're willing to share with us your journey to the the Orthodox faith.

SPEAKER_01 17:20

Yeah, so as I said, you know, baptized Enchia, which is Dutch Reformed, probably the most the church that's most tied to the Afrikaner culture in South Africa. You know, we did go to church growing up. I do come from a I would say faithful family, not over overly religious, but that's another topic because Afrikaners like to kind of say, like, oh, I've got Jesus in my heart and that's enough, you know. It's uh become a quite quite the popular thing. But I think from the age of about seven to let's say 10 or 11, we were really involved in our church. We used to go every Sunday. For me, religion, well, faith and Christianity was always really something that I that I treasured from a young age. And I'm very thankful I had a grandmother who spent a lot of time teaching us about the about the figures of the Old Testament, who I now revere as saints, including Saint Prophet Jonah. You know, I think that was the closest thing we had to to holy figures and the saints. So that really, you know, created a spark within me, you know. But I always, it's very interesting. From a very young age, I always felt that it was lacking. You know, there's a there's a Matushka, a priest's wife that I know in Canada, and she said it so beautifully. She says, like, contemporary Christianity leaves the already malnourished soul starving, you know. And I thought, like, you know, there has to be more, there has to be something deeper. I didn't know any better. So I was like, maybe Judaism is like the, you know, like the real thing, like going back to that. And, you know, I mean, I was still young, but I kind of heard about all these things like messianic Judaism, where they kind of keep the traditions of the Jews or whatever, but they still believe in Christ. And then as I got a bit older, I was like, okay, well, maybe Catholicism, I mean, they seem like they've got the traditions and all of that stuff. I knew it had to be old, you know. And my introduction to orthodoxy is quite unconventional. It's very funny. I think as a child, I was very receptive. You know, I really liked history, I liked, you know, questioning things and kind of seeing what's out there. And the very popular movie, My Big Fat Greek Wedding. I don't know if you've ever seen it.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:43

Now I cringe when I watch it because they just make such a mockery of the church. But anyways, as a child, I saw that and I was like, man, that's quite interesting. I wonder what faith this is. And I mean, I was probably eight when I saw it the first time, so I was quite young. So I kind of knew about the Greeks and their religion, if you will. And obviously, growing up in Pretoria, we've got the Greek Orthodox Cathedral, actually. It's the biggest uh Greek church in South Africa. It's a beautiful big church. You've been there, quite in a prominent spot. It's right opposite the University of Pretoria. So everyone knows about it. The hall gets rented out for all the major events. So I knew about the Greek church. And uh obviously, as is all over, Greeks own a lot of restaurants and cafes and supermarkets. So I used to go into the supermarkets and I used to notice the icons that they had. You know, some of them would have just one small icon in the corner somewhere, some would have plenty of icons on the wall, and I was like, oh yeah, like orthodoxy, you know. I kind of knew about it and it stayed in my mind. You know, so I think when I was a young adult, I was probably about 15, I was like, okay, I think I'm ready to kind of figure things out. Obviously, it was difficult, you know, like coming from a Protestant family, they kind of, you know, especially Afrikaners, there's a big um, there's a big opposition to anything that seems remotely Catholic, you know, there's a big history there with the Afrikaners and the Protestant heritage and being from the Catholics and you know, persecution and all of that stuff. So I think for them, they didn't really understand it. But my dad is a very good man and he very much encouraged me to figure things out, and he was very supportive throughout all of it. So yeah, so when I was about, so I was researching a lot, as much as I could take in, kind of looking at Catholicism and Orthodoxy, but eventually orthodoxy just made more sense to me than anything else.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

So yeah, when I was about, when was this? I think it was 2015. I started going to the Greek church. Obviously, I was very young. I think the priest is like, oh man, what's this 15 year old doing here? Like, how are we gonna deal with this? So, you know, after my first service, I went to him. You know, look, I'm very interested in orthodoxy. I'd like to get baptized at some point. He's like, Okay, that's all good, but I want to meet your father. You know, he told me. So it's like, okay, uh, you know, fair request. So my dad and I went and we saw Father Michael, my parish priest, and uh, you know, just to make sure that everything's uh loud and okay. And my father was like, Yeah, go ahead. So started with Catechism, did that for a while, and I think I was baptized, yeah. I think it was the same year, I was baptized at the end of the year.

SPEAKER_00 22:31

Beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

Yeah, so that's it. Hey, but uh it was a long journey and lots of uh challenges, and you know, I think uh, you know, it's difficult when people don't know it, you know. I think I think you can attest to the African culture that quite, you know, there's a lot of good, and I'm very thankful for my upbringing. And you know, there's you know, I think when it comes to moral moral stuff and all of that, we're very good with that. But when it comes to anything remotely foreign, they quite they can be quite hard with these things. So I've had uh you know, I've had a lot of debates with family, and you know, some of them still don't even understand what orthodoxy is now after I've explained it to them in the simplest of forms. You know, they still like, why do you guys think that you are the only right ones? And I'm like, okay, I you know, we do believe that, but we don't say that as a way to uh convince people because that's fruitless, you know.

SPEAKER_00 23:28

Yeah, yeah. Beautiful, thank you, brother. So like uh on that last point, because I've got a terrible memory. Now I listen to a lot, don't worry. There's a lot of beautiful stuff there.

Come And See Plus The Fountain Story

SPEAKER_00 23:41

But on the last, I found like what I say to people, I just say come and see. I don't I don't try and explain this and that, and because orthodoxy has to be experienced, it has to be witnessed, tasted, you know, that your your all your senses are invigorated when you come into an Orthodox church, and you just need to go there and pay attention and and see. And I've never been so like that before. My previous church, I wouldn't want as she said I I wouldn't invite people like that like I do now. I just say come and see, you know. In the beginning, you said something about Jesus is in my heart, and that's all that matters, and all this, you know, why do you need this? I I also get that. Um why do you need these pictures when we call icons? And why do you need this? Why do you need that? Why do you need to go to church sometimes? So, like a lot of people here in England, because I try to sell my bill tongue at markets, but I have my church card. The church card is next to my bill tongue as well, you know. And at the same time, different conversations about faith in the church, and you know, many people go, but you don't have to go, eh? You just anywhere, you know, you can go anywhere. And uh, you know, I bite my tongue in those moments and say, I remember a story of a it's a monk being asked also, like, if God is everywhere, this person's asking this monk, if God is everywhere, why do I have to go to church to worship him? And the monk answered, Well, water water's everywhere, right? Clouds drifting there, somebody said, and the pond there, it's there, it's everywhere. But you have to go to the fountain to drink it. Hundred percent. You know, and you have to you don't you don't know it until you've been you looked into it and you taste and see. So yeah, it's it's very much so. It'll never be people won't be won over by by arguments and and and maybe some will, the more intellectual people that are curious, it will work for them, but you've got to you've got to you've got to get into it. Okay, so nectarios.

Saint Nectarios And Miracles In South Africa

SPEAKER_00 25:52

That's the next thing. So what is your connection with this saint? Tell us a little bit about that, please.

SPEAKER_01 25:59

Yeah, so I think Saint Nectarios has a very special place in the hearts of Greeks all over. I think he's probably one of the most revered saints of, let's say, the last hundred years. He's a new recent saint. And I think the generation of Greeks that came to South Africa, look, a lot of them came quite early in the 1900s, but a lot of them kind of came from the 1950s, 60s, 70s. There's a, there's a there's a generation from that side as well. And this was obviously in and around the time that St. Nictadios was glorified by the church. And yeah, look, uh, the Greeks in South Africa, there's a there's a big veneration for him because obviously he's also kind of an African saint. He was in Alexandria in Egypt, on the other side of the continent, but you know, it's the closest thing we can get. So we take it. So we really do love him. There's a there's a church dedicated to him in Johannesburg as well. And he was one of the first saints that I really got to know about because I think he's one of the saints that a lot of the people have a connection with here. You know, the lady who eventually became my godmother when I was baptized. Saint Nicdarios did a very big miracle for them and their family here in South Africa in the 1960s. Her cousin was born with heart problems. I think she had a few holes in her heart, but her mother was actually not believing. As a Greek and as an Orthodox Christian, she actually did not believe. But my godmother's parents were faithful people. And this was around the time that St. Nicdarius got glorified as a saint. And they basically told her, pray to St. Nicdarius. He helps with all of these health problems, you know. And the women were so desperate because, I mean, this was the 1960s, and you know, I think there was like a 50-50% chance of the op going well. I mean, this was a baby, you know, like with heart problems, it was a big thing. And she was actually in Pretoria East Hospital and she was praying at the end. She was so desperate. And you won't believe me, but St. Nektarios actually appeared to her in the hospital room. He appeared to her, he went and he blessed uh the you know, the little baby, told her, don't worry, everything's gonna be all right. And lo and behold, everything went fine. So, yeah, you know, hearing about these things and also knowing, you know, you can give the Greeks a lot of uh grief, you know, like especially I think if you come from a rockour background, or you know, you've you know, you're a bit more you're a bit more used to the reverence that's supposed to be shown in church. You know, you can sometimes think like, oh man, these Greeks are such a handful and they talk during the services and you know, they don't have respect. But you know, for them they they speak about Christ and uh the mother of God and the saints with a lot of familiarity, you know. Um even with even with the Greeks, like they'll say Banahiyamu, which is you know, my my Banahiya, which is the title of the Mother of God, and you know, Theemu, my God, you know, and you might think that they're blaspheming, but you know, actually they really are not. They just have Christ and the mother of God and the saints so close to themselves, they speak about them with familiarity. You know, it took me it took me a long time to realize that. But yeah, so anyway, so that's kind of how I knew about Saint Nicdarius. You know, he's a very loved saint in South Africa, and then obviously reading his life, the great persecution he went through, his humility, and just everything. Yeah, he's an incredible saint.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and this is something Orthodox, yeah, people are uh curious out there about the saints are a presence. It's it's not like in my pre previous tradition, it used to it was like a far-off impossible thing. And a far-off kind of thing in the past, and it's not possible, and so on and so forth. Exactly.