Mavericks on the Mic
Mavericks move differently. They are known for disrupting the status quo and rewriting the script. Mavericks on the Mic uncovers the “Maverick Moments” that have shaped the lives of our guests. From personal stories of risk, unexpected pivots to moments of faith and resilience, these stories will inspire you to see your own Maverick Moment — the one that changed everything, even if no one else knows about it.
Mavericks on the Mic
Dante Bowe: The Break is Over
Another Wednesday, Another Episode of Mavericks on the Mic. Episode 2 of Mavericks on the Mic with Dante Bowe is here. Join the founders and executives behind Maverick City Music and Tribl Records as they talk with Dante Bowe. Dante is reflecting on his journey with Maverick City Music---from creating groundbreaking worship music to navigating industry dynamics, they are talking about it all:
🎙️His history ...and future... with Maverick City Music
🎙️ Breaking Barriers in Gospel Music
🎙️ Does Collaboration Always Win?
🎙️ Bad Bunny, Lil Nas X and "The Statement"
🎙️ Navigating the Music Industry
🎙️ ...and much more
Enjoy this conversation with our brother, Dante Bowe 🙌
Chapters:
00:00 - Welcome to Mavericks on the Mic
02:00 - The Genesis of Maverick City Music
08:30 - Breaking Barriers in Gospel Music
15:00 - Songwriting with Heart and Passion
22:00 - The Impact of Collaboration
30:00 - Navigating Challenges in the Industry
40:00 - Reflecting on Notable Moments
50:00 - Current Projects and Future Aspirations
01:05:00 - Final thoughts on faith, creativity, and community.
🔥 Drop a comment to let us know who you want to see on the Mic.
👉 Don’t forget to rate, share and subscribe
🎧 Want to watch the conversation? Watch on YouTube
How many nominations did you have that year at the Grammys? Thank you, welcome to another episode of Mavericks. On the Mic, I'm JJ.
Speaker 2:I'm Norman, and we have a very special guest with us here today, and it's no other than the legendary Dante Bo. Oh yes, what's up, man? What up man? What's up, bro? Good to see y'all. Good to see you, man For sure.
Speaker 3:How you been this your house too, you done blew up on us, got money now, oh man, you know.
Speaker 2:God does what God does. I like it, I'm just his conduit.
Speaker 3:I like it, man. Thanks for inviting me to be on this podcast, of course.
Speaker 2:Man, we excited to have you. Man, you were the topic of our first podcast at Moments. We sat down with Ruslan, you know, we kind of walked through the genealogy of Maverick City music. So I think that'll be a good starting point for us. You know what I'm saying. So for those of you, for those that don't know who you are, let's tell them who is Dante Bo.
Speaker 3:That's a good question. I mean, I'm a friend, I'm a brother, I'm a son, but I think, as it pertains to Maverick City, I mean I started out just as a songwriter and always loved to songwrite, and we ended up blowing up and then I was singing some of the records. Actually, you know what's crazy? I actually sang the first ever Maverick City song. Real thing, you did.
Speaker 1:Isn't that the?
Speaker 3:first ever camp. Yeah, the first ever camp. So I mean, as far as who I am in Maverick City, I'm a songwriter primarily, and then I'm an artist second to that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you and Brandon were the first. You were there before Chandler and Naomi were.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I showed JJ Chandler on TV because I used to watch Chandler at All Nations. This is also true. So we was at Bethel and I was showing him Chandler videos on TV. That's very true. I didn't know he would take my spot, wow.
Speaker 2:You feel like Chandler took your spot yeah.
Speaker 3:I'm just joking.
Speaker 2:I'm just joking.
Speaker 3:You know, all jokes aside, but like Chan was like that's like my teammate, like I felt like we were like teammates for sure. Jordan and Pippen, or Shaq and Col, teammates for sure Jordan and Pippen, or Shaq and Kobe Exactly Jordan and Pippen. They used to call us that. People used to have signs and like call us that and I feel like everything we did we won. You know, obviously we just did. You know, voice of God, we did Wait On you, but both nominated for Grammys. Both are like really successful records and I want to work with Chandler again at some point, but yeah, he didn't take my spot. We different, we've got the same kind of heart when it comes to worship, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Well, let's go back there. I mean, let's start at the beginning. Let's talk about like the beginning of Maverick City. We record that first album at that house, out in Redding, the first volume of that small EP comes out and then it just seems like the world got set on fire. Like what do you remember back from those days?
Speaker 3:I remember like not knowing what was going on and just being so zealous to have people hear my voice. You know, I was with Eddie James prior to Maverick City and he never wanted to record nothing in 4K. Everything was on iPhones and stuff. So nothing ever went viral. And I would be having these great worship moments but nobody would ever see them. And then I remember when I came to the camp, y'all had real cameras. So I was like, oh yeah, people about to see me finally lead worship, so I was excited to actually be caught on camera, like you know. You know, leading worship is something I was passionate about doing, you know, letting people see me actually do it, like with quality, not just know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but it wasn't just leading worship, right, I think there was an edge that you guys had that was other than it was special. It stood out and I think people felt that from the first song we ever dropped, even from a lot of the videos that we put on IG Like what is that? What was that? What do you think people felt when they saw and interacted with some of the songs that we released at the very beginning?
Speaker 3:I mean we black kids. So we struggled. You know we had struggles and stuff like that. We had been through a lot, some of them. You know Naomi was already married. You know Chandler had his own like church history. You know dad had been a pastor he was Travis Green, all this stuff history. You know dad been a pastor, he was travis green, all this stuff I, my, my grandmother and grandfather pastors and then I was eddie james. Like we, we didn't start in that room in maverick city. We had already built this secret like relationship with god, like this private relationship with god, and we were already leading to that level. It was just we were given a platform and all together which would make, which made it even more powerful. I feel like we all coming together as black kids and, uh, leading in a genre that didn't have any black kids in it, yeah, and so that made it special too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that we look different, yeah, act different yeah, I, I remember very vividly the, the, when we started doing stuff. I mean, I remember when I started, like when I became a songwriter and I kind of worked my way into industry, I remember always being the only black person In every room I went in. It didn't matter if it was a writing room. Jd, are you black? I'm just joking.
Speaker 3:I'm just joking. I'm just joking. We ain't one of these. I'm just joking. I'm just joking. I'm just joking. I'm just joking. We ain't want to be. I'm just joking. I'm just joking. We joke about this all the time. Yes, I am black, I know.
Speaker 1:Yes, I am black, no, but I think yeah to that point. I just think there was something that I think the fact that we were able to sing songs in a way that people weren't able to pigeonhole us as a gospel brand, but we were doing worship, it felt so other than it felt so different, it felt so inspired. Yeah, and I think I love what you said about we struggle, we're black, like, talk a little bit more about that. What does that mean to you? The black experience?
Speaker 3:is. You know, especially when you ain't got no money and when you're raised in the church. First of all, you, like our, our, we were raised under strict guidelines and strict laws, like you know, we had to really abide by. We was in church monday through sunday. You know I'm saying tent revivals and choir rehearsals and sleeping on the floors at shut-ins and all kind of stuff. Like you, you had to be loyal to your church. It's just a culture, it's a way of being.
Speaker 3:When you're raised as a black kid in a church, you know what I'm saying. And so you go through struggles and even though we hadn't talked about them, when we all came together for the first recording, it was when we led worship together. We knew what it was Like. You know what I'm saying. Like, like. You know what I'm saying. Like we lead with heart, we lead with passion and zeal, like we don't sing from a place of privilege. Yeah, you know what I'm saying. We sing from a place of like, having to figure out you know how we're going to make it Like. We're trying to make it. Like we need opportunities in order to get out of our situations or whatever the case may be.
Speaker 2:And so we sang a little harder than the rest of the worship teams out there. I think that's a good point. I think oftentimes what often gets conflated in worship or Christian music is that no different than a pastor, an evangelist, prophet, ceo, cashier at McDonald's, that you guys are using your talent for God. But it's also a pathway to freedom and prosperity. That's a great one, and so I wouldn't even use the word prosperity because it has such a connotation, but I would use the word financial blessing. That changes the landscape of many of our families Absolutely, and JJ and I we often have this dialogue.
Speaker 2:It's something I've always struggled with and it's that I'm not big on making excuses that are centered solely on race Right. It's just, it's difficult for me. I've worked really hard, also partially because I'm half African, so I think that has a lot to do with it. But as I've matriculated through life and I've come to find this appreciation and empathy for just the overall difficulty that exists being a minority in America, and I don't think that, I think that of all the spaces in the United States culture and institutions that the institution of Christianity struggles with that more than anybody. And it's not that I placed my black identity above my Christian identity? I don't I'm. I'm a Christian before I'm anything else. However, just as we can have an appreciation just as I'm uh, just as I follow God before I'm a husband I have an appreciation for the needs of my wife. Yeah, I have an appreciation for the needs of my kids and how they're disproportionate from my needs as the breadwinner in the home right, and I think that one of the things that I noticed because I was on the outside looking in at Maverick City for a time was that everyone was so afraid that you guys were going to take their spot.
Speaker 2:Everyone, like there wasn't when the Mavericks anything happened. There wasn't some internal oh my God, we finally got something that's exciting and new. There was more of this condescending who is that? What are they doing? Why do videos look like that? Why it sound like that? Instead of people rallying around you guys and kind of holding your hands and saying, yo man, this is really different. This is, this is really something new that we can we can embrace, it was almost like everyone looked for every excuse not to embrace it. Did you guys feel that? Did you? Did you sense that? Like, how did that? How did that? How did that it? Did you guys feel?
Speaker 3:that. Did you sense that? Like, how did that come across to you guys? Yeah, for sure, we felt that and I feel like I could have been more of a help and a team player, because I did feel like the trailblazer of the group, because I was socially accepted into circles that they weren't yet, even though they had popping videos, like when it comes to k love and the doves and bethel music and jesus culture and hill song, like I had already worked with all these people prior to volume one or after volume one actually, and I feel like, instead of even though I did contribute and I was there for my team, I feel like, um, I could have been more of an advocate. But, yeah, I not only did I feel that I was around the people who's saying it, I was around gatekeepers, that was saying it, but they would exclude me from it at the time and um, I think, too, there's another dynamic.
Speaker 1:There's two very clear things that are happening. Right. There's, uh, you guys are like the former, like I know Chandler started with Travis and had done some stuff with Ty and you had done some stuff with Eddie, had done some stuff with Travis, so you guys kind of come out of like, oh man, these are these. Guys were like helping some of these gospel artists lose worship, and now they're everywhere. Like who are these people? The other side of it was like who me and tony were at the time, like we were.
Speaker 1:It was a little people didn't really know us, um, especially in the gospel community, like people didn't have context for us. There was even, uh, one of the ways I met you was, uh, there were these rumors that were going around saying that that we were white, that the people who owned Maverick City were white, and I thought that was really interesting. Close, if you ask me, oh my gosh. But yeah. So I think those are the dynamics that are at play at the very beginning, that kind of you feel, this opposition, and honestly, we also kind of had this attitude to us where we kind of didn't play by the rules, like I remember a few moments, through key moments, through our kind of beginning, where we kind of pushed away from those people that wanted to kind of maybe bring us closer or have us do some things that they thought were more industry standard, and we just were very other than we were very maverick in that.
Speaker 3:So I think those Until we did play by the rules. And then I feel like it started getting sticky. Like what Expound on that? Like if Joel or Aaron I'm not even going to advocate for Joel, but like if Aaron had a song, it would be like Tori or not Tori Kelly. If Katie Trawalk came in town she would get the record on the stage and then our own teammate wouldn't. Or like if you know, we started swapping out our real team for, like famous Christian people that didn't even really they loved us and they were with us, but I'm saying they weren't really on the team, like that. But I feel like that's when you know, know, sometimes like that can bring the vision, just with the group.
Speaker 1:Do you feel like that was a misstep on our part?
Speaker 3:too. Yeah, like it was a misstep with keeping the morale really high because, like, everybody played their little part. Like you had like four main people right, and then you had people that played their part to make it this iconic group. You know what I'm saying, that you know we couldn't do it without Lizzy, even though, like Lizzy necessarily didn't have like the biggest record with Maverick City, but it was her style. It looked like it. Just we created this Lizzy person. It was team, yeah, and so I feel like we just should have just kept it a team, like we didn't need that many people to come in and do all this stuff like, but at the same time, everything happens for a reason. You know I'm saying so. You got to give thanks in all things, but I do feel like that was one of the one of the things that we did that made people feel unworthy I want to stay there for a minute, I think.
Speaker 2:I think one of the things of this conversation that is going to be super important is that so many people have so many opinions of so many things surrounding you, Mal us. Who are these overarching forces and all of these things, and I think that this is going to be a real humanization, personification of what actually this journey has been. I think one of the beautiful things of this moment is we brothers, we're talking basically every day.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know we're back in fellowship.
Speaker 3:And we've already talked about this stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we've talked about it. You know what I mean. We've definitely already talked about it, but we've never sat and let people know that, like this is what family is. Yeah, family, you go a season, you don't talk to your cousin for a year and a half you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Then you get back to the family reunion. He got on some dope shoes. You're like, bro, what you been up to, you know what I mean and so like that's good, because you know, when I came around, one of the things that was big was that if you wrote the song, you sang the song. Right, that's kind of how this thing, that's kind of how it kicked off, like if you write the song, you sing the song. I guess that's a little different because Naomi did sing Promises, but the point that I'm getting at was that was the original ethos, and so you feel like when Maverick began to bring in feature artists to kind of commercialize what was happening in the raw, genuine worship room, it began to fracture the morale and the unity of the group.
Speaker 3:I mean it wasn't commercialized because we were already huge, we were already in a stadium. I mean it wasn't commercialized because we were already huge, like we were already in a stadium. But we were already like selling records in stadiums, getting nominated for all the awards, but that's not even important. I know people are like oh, it's not about that, I get it Like, but I'm saying we were already commercial.
Speaker 2:No, you're giving context.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm giving context, and so while we were at that level, I feel like some people felt forgotten about. You know what I mean the people that helped us get to that level.
Speaker 2:What could have like I want to press it, like what could have been like all right, cool, we here, we get ready to go on tour.
Speaker 3:I can give you what happened.
Speaker 2:I can give you a situation.
Speaker 3:All right. One time we was backstage right, everybody know Amos is my best friend, right, he be riding for me. I ride for him. Like, sometimes, to a fault, I get in trouble. Like I think sometimes, like I really forfeit my career. I forfeited my career for my friend. Like, literally I did, I could still have my career. I could have never been at odds with anybody if he didn't have issues.
Speaker 3:Okay, like, that's where my that's the origin story of like, where I started feeling like oh, I'm a backtalk, I ain't coming to soundcheck because I'm Dante. They might treat him like that. They can't get rid of me. I never knew this and so I would just be sassy because I didn't like how they was treating my best friend and um, but one time we was backstage and um, they were like, hey, we got to get rid of one song because we got so-and-so coming in and I could see his face. Man, he was just like I know they're gonna get rid of my son. You know he already putting his head down and and we had a bunch of stars. Granted, we did have a bunch of stars on the road. So you got to figure out what the it's really about our followers too. Like we're trying to like make sure the room is like feeling like the presence of God and like that the songs make sense.
Speaker 3:And sometimes you got to get rid of the song that people don't know that often. And sometimes you got to get rid of the song that don't people don't know that often, you know I'm saying I get that, but uh, so yeah, they got, they got rid of his song and I was just like, hey, ain't nobody get rid of, no, I'm just fussing. And I can see the team face like, oh, here we go, like and I feel like that's when it started with me doing all that, like you know, and people like what did you used to do? I would get attitudes like throughout the tour just because, like he couldn't, like he's gonna get fired, he can get fired like that, like it would take a long time for me to get fired you were putting them on, you were, you were fighting for him I was fighting for him, like I I knew he was a star I mean, he's still growing and learning but like I just felt like dang, like take my song off.
Speaker 3:And that's what I was telling him Take my record off. No, we can't take your record off. I'm like, well, let him sing. I Thank God With Me. And that's how that happened. That's how Aaron started closing the show out with me, because I just started feeling bad for him and Joel.
Speaker 1:I'm glad you brought that up. This is one of the things about we talk about this all the time, cle. I'm glad you brought that up. This is one of the things about we talk about this all the time collaborating.
Speaker 3:Oh wait, wait, wait. Last thing no, go ahead. And the reason why I didn't fight for everybody is because, like, he's a part of the original story, yeah, for sure, from beginning to the end. Like that's why, like, listen, we added people here and there that contributed, but like then you had they're from the start, they're from the beginning. When you hear the records, you hear them.
Speaker 1:So anyway, yeah, no, I mean, we talk about collaboration all the time and collaboration's beautiful when it works and when it's in the shiny lights and you get to tour it and you get to sell the records. But this is kind of the underbelly of collaboration, right For real, when you are and we saw this every single, whether it was brandon or chandler or naomi or you it's like the artists. You guys have your own edge, you have your. You have clarity of what you do when you get on a stage. And a lot of times not a lot of times, all the time that you guys were together and did maverick city, y'all had to pull that back and sort of be mindful of how everybody else fit into the story.
Speaker 1:And for a lot of people who are out there who don't maybe know that, that's really difficult. That's really really hard to feel like you have a gift and calling purpose, clarity of what you're supposed to be doing with your life, and to feel like you have to share that but then also have to learn how to share that. And I think that's something that at first we were really really, really good at, but I think as we started to tour, we started to right, I think a lot of things just kind of had to come into a certain place and I think one of my regrets is and I wish we were a lot more clear about how we were going to move into that season and set up everyone's expectations better but yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I think this is one of the conversations where it's like really easy for me to diagnose, because I wasn't writing the music, I wasn't producing the music. I wasn't writing the music, I wasn't producing the music. I was just there to basically execute on larger vision and what I would see a lot to be fair, you weren't really even a part of that like that we started getting mad at each other.
Speaker 3:You came after we already didn't like each other like that.
Speaker 1:But he also came at an inflection point. We had just finished OCB and we made the decision within a week. He came after we already didn't like each other like that, but he also came at an inflection point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, we had just finished OCB and we made a decision within a week that we were going to go do this tour, and it was. We were already late to put the tour out. So there's all these outside forces that are like we're doing the tour. We just dropped the biggest record of Christian music in the past X. Whatever. There's pressure for things to be answered. There's photos that need to be taken, billboards that need to be made. Well, whose face? Like? Hey, we can only put five faces on the billboard. How many? Whose faces are we putting up? Hey, we can only put three faces on the billboard.
Speaker 3:Like those are the things. Whose decision was it to take my face off the billboard, jonathan?
Speaker 2:Those are the things Whose decision was it to take my face off the billboard? Jonathan Jay, Can you answer the question please?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean I don't, because I wrote Old Church Basement yeah, and I sang it too. That's one of the only songs on the album with no features. It's only Dante Bo. I sang the whole song, from top to bottom, yeah.
Speaker 1:I think it's funny and I've never said this out loud and I hope I'm not.
Speaker 1:I don't I don't mean to say this to be offensive, but I think, in the spirit of trying to be collaborative, I think we let some things slide that, looking back on them, they hurt people and they had implications. And I mean I'll just tell you this right now like our leadership in that moment was horrible, like we should have had a conversation, we should have advocated for you to be on that photo, and I know we've talked about this off off camera. But yeah, I mean, I think these are the things that I think when I look back and I go. Those are more of the story of why things felt so fractured, right, because we were trying to figure this thing out. We're fractured right because we were trying to figure this thing out. We're getting asked questions, we're having to put names, and it's just like, well, wait a second, let's huddle here, let's figure out, like, what the priority is, let's figure out, like, whose face should be, and I think, because we didn't do that, it left things open-ended and yeah, I mean there was.
Speaker 2:It made it worse I think the reality that we don't speak to a lot um is that we're a lot of out. Look, you're talking about you have, so it was Furtick.
Speaker 3:LOL, I'm just kidding.
Speaker 2:We're talking about. Hey, I wasn't a part of the decision making. I don't know a part of the decision making I don't know. But you're talking about at this time you have Chandler, naomi, brandon, dante, joelle Barnes, lizzie Morgan, rhino, faye, aaron, moses, mj and Mary Ann George, right, you have nine artists. None of them got deals, right? You guys you and Brandon are finishing up y'all Belter deals and getting out of them. Y'all publishing deals is all up. We just released this old church basement. Our first show is a sold out show in Sacramento.
Speaker 2:You know y'all people telling y'all Maverick making all of this money. People telling y'all y'all getting robbed. People telling y'all that if you come over here it'll be like this. And I think the reality of it is imagine taking the best player off of every NBA team. There's still going to be a hierarchy, like at the All-Star game. Lebron's still going to get the last shot, although KD take the last shot when he on the Suns. In the All-Star game, lebron, like if you watch the Olympics, there's a deference that was paid.
Speaker 2:The difference amongst y'all was there wasn't much difference outside of existing friend groups when they came in right. So you had Dante, Aaron and Joel that kind of knew each other prior. Naomi was y'all knew of Chandler, but he wasn't in y'all friend group. You know what I mean? Brandon as well, he was solo dolo. Lizzie solo dolo. Her and Chandler knew each other, but she was solo dolo and Marianne was solo dolo.
Speaker 2:And so what you see happening is everybody evaluating the experience of Maverick City through their own lens. There is no overarching man of God that y'all all got to bow down to, that y'all all got to answer to. It's this egalitarian approach that, or the democratic approach that, whatever the group decides, it is. And in that moment, like it happens in all democracies, people want to fight for their identity, politics right, for the things that matter to them, for the things that matter to them. And the outside forces, what I believe, were able to pick apart and fracture the very cohesive unit that they never wanted to exist in the first place. That's how I see that time, that when you look back on the time and the season, the result of what ended up taking place is what they always wanted, right. And when I say they, I mean you get what I'm saying. When I say they, I mean the industry, the places that are inviting people one-on-one now, the places that say, hey, I only want these two, because the reality is, the entire unit was something. It was the Avengers, it was something that couldn't be rivaled, and the way that you knock that down or you knock that off is to play into the things that matter to each person more than what matters to the group.
Speaker 2:And, over time, what happened is, because we're not a church and the ultimate decision is each individual person, you lose this sense of well, why I'm going to do what's in Chandler's best interest I don't trust him to do what's in my best interest why I'm going to do what's in my best interest. I don't know what they're doing what's in my best interest, but now I bet if we could all look back and we see the results of what it is. That man, all those people that said they was going to be where they at now you know what I mean. All those people that said you can't where they at now. You know, yeah, they'll call y'all in right, here and there, but as soon as something happens, oh, you can't come to my church, no more. You know what I mean. Oh, you know, we excommunicated him for woo-da-woo-da-woo and all of that's even fluff. That's all used to leverage you and your talent into what they want to use it for.
Speaker 2:And what I'll say and I always said it and I tell all the artists this is that JJ and Tony, to their own detriment, only wanted what was best for y'all. What they didn't know was how to do it. They're not business guys, they're not businessmen, they're artists. They didn't know from day one that this thing was going to blow up and become this gigantic worship group. They just wanted to write some songs with some black kids in white spaces and break down the glass ceiling and bury that. It always existed.
Speaker 2:And so I wanted to add this context, because I think it's super important when people are looking at what this is today, and because it was about six, seven, eight.
Speaker 2:It was a hundred different fake maverick cities that rose up. The reason they never became anything is because one was called by God to do this, and the reason why we always can find common ground is because within us there's a purpose that doesn't go away. There's a purpose, a unification that, no matter what we went through, I can always find it in myself to say you know, dante said, you know we need to reach out to Aaron. Well, let's reach out to Aaron, let's reach out to MJ, let's call Joel, let's see what's up, because the will of God is more important than any pride, any art, any offense that we hold in today. Yeah, for sure, that's just what I wanted to make sure we hit Like man. This is bigger than us, for sure. It's bigger than the money, it's bigger than the fame, it's bigger than a big song. There's something about the unity that we held together that was special, unique and it was life transformative for a lot of people.
Speaker 3:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1:It's kind of weird to even be in the middle of that, because, I mean, we felt all those things, we sensed all those things, but we also had those other realities that were fighting us. So it was this weird, like it was. Disorienting is what I'm trying to say, because you feel the power of what we're doing together, you see the effect of it, you see God's hand on everything, but you also feel these other realities that are competing against that, and sometimes it's really hard to even voice that, because is this a safe place to talk about that? I'm just thinking about how artists might've felt like is this a safe place for me to even voice this? And how do I do that? Well, so, yeah, I, I mean I echo what you said 100, yeah we.
Speaker 3:We were young too, you know, I mean, and there was nothing pulling us together. I wish I prayed like I do now then, but like there was nothing like keeping us together, like everything was pulling us apart, like even when we started talking to, like execs, it would be private meetings, like we stopped having team meetings unless it was like to get rid of Dante.
Speaker 3:No, I'm just kidding but yeah, I mean, we here I feel like I feel like there's a lot of things was pulling us apart, and I mean, even on my end, you know, I'm saying like I had my own little thing happening and I was, you know, definitely operating as an individual, and other people might feel that they did the same thing, you know, at some points, but I think, more so for me, I really was, you know yeah, we felt that, but I felt I remember feeling like, oh he's, and I don't know that it was a bad thing per se.
Speaker 1:It just was, oh, he's focused on dante bow. Yeah, I was just doing what brandon lake doing now, like I like I was doing that den, and I don't know that it was a bad thing per se, it just was oh, he's focused on Dante Bowe.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I was just doing what Brandon Lake doing now. I was doing that then and I feel like if I can go back in time which I can't I would probably bring people along my journey and make all my wins their wins. And when I'm performing at the award show, like make it about my team and pay homage to the peers that I really respected. Like you know, I really respected my team. It was just hard for me to give myself to it 100% after just feeling like, oh man and that and it was more so just about my best friend, like I never really got left out of anything until Old Church Basement. I never felt like out of the loop until then. You know what I'm saying and I get why I was like out of the loop what I was going to say.
Speaker 2:We can hit that. We can expand on that in a second as we continue through, I think 30 minutes in. I think the question everybody's waiting on is did you leave Maverick City and what's the story behind the?
Speaker 3:statement. I did leave Maverick City so we didn't kick you out. No, they did not kick me out, they just asked me to sit down for six months and I can't, I can't, I gotta make another album. I'm hot, like I made a mistake, like with the photo that everybody at this point is like 100 interviews, but even the Tamra Hall interview, you know what I mean. But like, yes, it was. We know now it was a photo for sure.
Speaker 2:So we didn't kick you out for bad buddy. Did we ever even mention bad buddy to you? No, no, no.
Speaker 3:We never even talked about that stuff. No, no, no, like, never Like, like, never like. It was never anything besides that one incident, necessarily, you know, obviously, like being young people in a group, like we had plenty of stuff pop up throughout our lives. We were spending years of our time together and growing at the same time, but I'm talking about like as far as kicking out or like sitting down. It was this instance only that it was ever brought up, and at the time we didn't know what would come of the photo like. So it could have been huge, it could have been what it was, but it was like nothing, you know, I mean. But at the same time it still happened, and so that's the reason why I was asked to, um, like step away for six months that I could come back and like we'll figure it out from there. But I was just so mad at them like I really was mad at these people like, because it was just I know they didn't like me, like that you know what I'm saying?
Speaker 1:what do you say them? Who do you mean?
Speaker 3:who do I mean?
Speaker 1:you mean me yeah, you like.
Speaker 3:You Like Brandon Lake. Yeah, like Tony, not necessarily you.
Speaker 1:It's funny because the three of us were the only people that were really talking during that whole, when we were trying to figure out what we were going to do next after the photo drop. Like it was the three of us and I felt like I'm talking to a crisis team, y'all.
Speaker 3:Yeah. No, it photo drop Like it was the three of us and I felt like I'm talking to a crisis team, y'all yeah no it was crazy. Yeah, it was a lot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, one of the things that you know goes unsaid is like we were strapped. I mean, I had a heart. I've known Dante prior to him being in Maverick City. You know he, I think he was. I did the first song. You hired me, yeah, I did, but you didn't show up one time. So you know me, he hired me too. Oh wait.
Speaker 3:Normie hired me to sing Beachy Beans for Travis Green when I was young and then I looked on the planning center cause I got bro, I had the flu, I couldn't come to sing. It was a big conference and so I looked on the planning center. I was nowhere, like he just fired me straight up and when I blew up I was so happy you removed people from the planning center before or after you fired them, I don't know.
Speaker 2:I was in the BGV at the time. You gotta ask.
Speaker 1:Blair Rand that stuff but yeah, there's a lot of. There's a lot of old Travis BGVs that are like now in the worship world.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure, aaron played keys for us. Zeke, yeah, zeke.
Speaker 3:Dante Chandler. We love Travis. We looked up to. Travis, yeah, travis, we loved him Like for real, Everybody loved.
Speaker 2:Travis. Travis is the OG.
Speaker 3:But yeah, bro, I feel like you know, I'm like, okay, they are offering me, you know, they said they'll pay me like to even sit down for six.
Speaker 1:We wanted to cover your salary.
Speaker 3:We wanted to cover your team salary. They could have bored me my lifestyle crazy. They could probably, but I was still just mad at them, man, and I think, my, I don't regret it, I don't regret, I don't regret leaving. Wow, I don't regret leaving, I don't regret.
Speaker 1:I don't regret leaving.
Speaker 3:Wow, I don't regret leaving. I think it was right for me, and I also don't regret being friends. Now you know what I'm saying, like coming back, talking and like like building our brotherhood. Now you know what I'm saying. I feel like I needed to go away and I needed to build something from the ground up, even if it's not as prolific as the group I was in before. I needed humility. I needed to be by myself, isolated. I moved to a different city alone, without my friends, without Aaron, without Joey. I needed all that you know what I'm saying To be who I am right now, even though it sucked, bro, looking at Jackie putting me in the side of the stage where I'm nominated for Songwriter of the Year and stuff, she didn't give me that middle seat, no more. That hurt my feelings. Jackie Patilla, gma, that's my girl. That's my girl Like she. Yeah, you know I was hosting the pre-show right before that, right before Maverick posted that on Instagram. Do you know why we had to post that? They took me off the pre-show.
Speaker 2:You said what? Do you know why we had to post that? Oh, Do you understand why we had to post that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I just told them, like because we didn't know what would come of this photo, like it could have been what I mean, gave me favor and graced me, or it could have been some crazy moment like you know what I'm saying that would affect every single person that's a part of my team, so I think that's why y'all had to say something.
Speaker 2:Got it? Do you feel like it was? And I'm asking these questions.
Speaker 3:They were mean to me. We was mean to you, not y'all, like my team, my peers was mean to me, like they didn't text me or call me or say nothing to me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I want to talk about that. What did that mean to you, Like when you heard radio silence, Like what does that?
Speaker 3:I didn't hear complete radio silence. It's Naomi, chandler, lizzy and MJ called me. Let that sit, and they said we didn't want this to happen but we were under pressure to do it, and you know it is something that you know. It is my own consequence I have to deal with. You know what I'm saying. However, like they did hit me up and you and Norman, that's it. And so then I knew who did it Like, I knew who was really like, really wanted me like to sit down, and I get it. I get it Like I'm just I'm a wild card.
Speaker 3:You know, like I think people like what I do. I'm just I'm a wild card. You know, like I think people like what I do. I'm the fastest rider, I'm the like, I'm the fastest rider, I'm the hardest worker, like I go harder than anybody Like, and I feel like that just comes with some struggles here and there. You know what I'm saying. Like, even though that wasn't a particular struggle, that was really an accident, Thank God. But at the same time, I feel like people want me to be like this, this perfect person, but the reason why they love me or like me is because of of my edge and how I'm still growing in front of them and like processing my life in front of them, in front of them, and like processing my life in front of them, like I really don't lie or hide on the internet as much as you know people in my genre hide and lie, you know what I'm saying like I will be honest, like oh, lil Nas X, or I will dance to Bad Bunny.
Speaker 2:I posted all this like no one ever out of me no one ever out of me for anything.
Speaker 3:I just I posted all of this on the internet like no one's ever done that to me do you regret being on the red carpet saying that you was excited like what describe that moment?
Speaker 2:you you the most nominated gospel artist ever and won Grammy Awards. They ask you who you excited about that's how God works, bro.
Speaker 3:No, I don't regret that because that was real. I just talked a little nice Like, so I was telling him like bro, I'll see you, man, I want to work with you one day. Yeah, like I could see like the heart of the guy. Like I don't necessarily like people try to make it seem like I was thinking about him twerking on the devil, like I don't even think about it. I never even seen the video for real.
Speaker 1:Besides, the clips that Christians keep posting all over the internet. You know what I'm saying? Someone asked me about it and I was like no, no, no, he's talking strictly from like a music lover.
Speaker 3:They just like to pick on me because I'm just talkative, like I just say stuff, but like I obviously wasn't talking about this specific video. I really think he's a creative genius and I feel like I wanted to do it at the time. I wanted to do a Christian record with him, a real one. I really did want to do one with him, and so when I got to the interview, I had just talked to him. When I got to the interview, that's the first name that came to my head, because I was literally just talking to him and my ex-girlfriend loved Lil Nas and so she was always playing him. So it was just in my head at the time Like it was no, like of course there's other people I wanted to see Like they just couldn't come to my head fast enough and I didn't know who all was performing and so it just came out.
Speaker 3:I don't it. I don't regret that, I only regret that photo. By the way, in my entire career I only regret one thing, and it's that photo. I could have still been dante saying that what I said on the carpet and I, because I know my heart, you know what I'm saying it was pure. It had nothing to do with any salaciousness or any sexual. You know what I mean? It was just straight up love for his music and Dancing. The Bad Bunny, I wasn't in a party bus, I was in a Sprinter and it was my best friend's birthday. You know what I'm saying and whoever playing, we love Chanoia, chanoia, no, no, no, we love that song. I'm not ashamed of that. Your favorites love that song, like everybody love that song. So they just not telling y'all that you know what I'm saying, yeah, and so I'm like, why would I hide? You know I get it, but that did not end my career, that did not. That did not.
Speaker 1:I remember and this was a very poignant moment for us. I think it was like kind of the last time we spoke for a while, but it was that night that everything came out and I remember one of the things I felt like you were communicating to me in the moment was like just that, exactly, like dude, all these people do X, y and Z and they get to whatever. And I'm the one and do you remember any of that conversation? Do you remember? Yeah, and I'm the one and do you remember? Do you remember any of that conversation? Do you remember? Yeah?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I felt uncovered but, at the same time, like I wasn't uncovered. I was covered. It was just my time. I had to face the smoke. Like you know what I'm saying, like it was just my time, just like a lot of other of your favorite preachers and these people that have a moment, you know, in the public eye that could really like it's just detrimental to you know a season of their career. It was just. I was one of those people. I never thought I would be one of those people. None of us do. We all have regular flaws, like everybody, from your favorites to your least favorites. They all have a lot of the similar flaws. Some people get uncovered I don't know how to say it not uncovered, but sometimes it's just people's time to deal with the public scrutiny and I don't know why I felt like I wasn't going to be one of those people. But it was my time. It was hard, bro. It was hard and I could have been really depressed about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, you know one of the questions we have is that, like your departure man, you know it stirred a lot of speculation. You know what I mean and I mean how have you handled it? You know what I'm saying the public reaction, what lessons did you take away from the experience?
Speaker 3:I was like should I just tell the world everything I know about every single person I ever met? And I was like that's gross, like I don't know. That was my first thing that came to my head. Like do some Dante stuff? Like you know some Dante stuff?
Speaker 3:I was like that's actually gross, that's not my character and I maintain that throughout my rollout, whatever any interviews, I would just tell the story as natural as possible and I really don't think it's my business. Like other people's falls are like failures and stuff like that, and I would never want what happened to me to happen to anybody at the hands of my like by my hands. You know I'm saying. And so I just chose to take the high road as much as possible and talk crap about everybody with my friends. So that's what I did.
Speaker 3:I just that kept me from being depressed. It's just talk shit with my friends and and in public, just keep safe face and be nice and hug brandon, like at the dove awards. Like do do you know? Do your due diligence? Like be a good person and don't allow this situation to ruin it. Like ruin your life for real. You know I'm saying because it's always a comeback. You know I'm saying and I actually started to love everybody that was a part of Maverick slowly, without talking to everybody, like I started actually being able to cheerlead and be cool. The more my life got better you know I'm saying the more I felt comfortable, like showing up to a Chandler thing or like me and Naomi ate dinner in New York at the Tori Kelly concert. I actually went and I didn't want, like I was like you know, I'm gonna go like little stuff, like coming to write with y'all, like a few weeks ago, and like just healing. That's all.
Speaker 1:It took some therapy and some healing and I mean I forgave y'all without talking, like without talking to you yeah, that was very interesting because I remember the first time that we spoke, it was like you were very clear, like, like hey, that's good, man, we're good. Because I wanted to be like hey man, you know, we said this and you were very clear from the beginning. Like no man, like we're good.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I feel that and that's how I felt when I first saw everybody. I'm just like, I don't have no malice in my heart. I did what I did, you know. I mean, I have to face the music like it was still my decision and you can't put it on another man to, like, you know, do what you would do in a situation. You know I'm saying so. I had to, you know, deal with my own consequences and I and I've come to terms with that. That's the in, like I guess, say in general, that's my takeaway. It's like I did it and it's still my consequence.
Speaker 3:You know I'm saying and um, whether or not my brother's covered me or not, it's not really the point of it.
Speaker 2:It was my lesson to learn so I know, one night you and brandon was on tiktok and you said you was never coming back to Maverick.
Speaker 3:I probably had some Sir Davis, some Sir Davis.
Speaker 2:You know what Sir Davis is. I'm assuming it's some alcohol.
Speaker 3:I'm just kidding, I didn't. I don't know why. I mean, I can't remember what I said. I said I was never coming back you said you was.
Speaker 2:I'm never coming back to Maverick, oh well.
Speaker 3:I guess that's what I said.
Speaker 2:I don't know how do you feel today? Like where's your head in that perspective as you sit here right now?
Speaker 3:um, that's a big, big, big question, like, obviously, like we just started writing and I wrote with Chandler on me the other day in Nashville, I loved it, I missed it. Um, like, I don't have no beef for nobody. So I guess it would be like if, if the chips fail, like that, that way, then I would go with whatever God wanted for my life. You know what I'm saying. And if everybody was happy, like my friends, my family, then I would be more open to it. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:What would that mean for your current transition into R&B?
Speaker 3:Oh, it's just what it is. I'm an artist, I just be making music. I don't take it as serious as people think I do. I really love creating music. I make it in my sleep, and so when it comes to me being R&B, I just make R&B music now from time to time, but I make Christian music too. If Sabrina Carpenter wanted a song, I would write one for her too. I just like making music. I want to be successful, but I don't know where I'll end up. I might do a worship album. You know what I'm saying. I love Jesus first, before anything anybody. So I might do a worship album. Or if something mixed and mastered in there everybody's like ooh, it's a hit, I might drop it. It might be an R&B record. You know what I'm saying? I don't know. I don't know, bro.
Speaker 1:I think, yeah, I mean I definitely. I mean kind of going back to the genius of I look back at some of the first you know few albums and projects we did and I just I see you all over it. I remember just so vividly your genius and your creativity just shines through, even the other day just having you back around and just I don't know, I don't know where you are in that journey or where your headspace is. But I mean, I definitely think there's calling and purpose.
Speaker 3:I'm called to lead worship. I'm one of the best worship leaders in the world. Like I watch my videos, Like when I want to get a breakthrough, I watch me lead worship on YouTube Wow, For real, for real. And then, second to that, I watch my Maverick City family Like they lead better than anybody in the whole entire world. Let's talk about that.
Speaker 1:Because I remember when you guys— there's no better worship leaders. Yeah, why is that?
Speaker 3:Because it's just so real. Yeah, like I know I'm being real up there because I know me, so I can lead myself into worship like I trust me leading me into worship. And then I know what Chandler been through, I know what Aaron and Naomi have been through. Like they real worship leaders, like they really serious about this like I've, like they love doing it for God, like they really are legit worshipers. And I think sometimes people think, because people got struggles, that they make some fake worship leaders or something like that. Like nah, like I can't take away that they are real worship leaders. Like these people really do have a heart to you, know to do what you see them do on stage, like they really have that heart. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:What do you say to people who you know to your point? What do you say to people who are critical of maybe lifestyles or even things they're haters?
Speaker 3:They don't want you to be better than like no one wants. It's like they love you when you're coming up and then when you blow up, they hate you because you got money or they hate you because you don't look sad. I'm not going to cap. I would say who told me to say this? But I I have a lot of respect for her and she's everybody's favorite worship leader.
Speaker 3:She told me why don't you just post some of your struggles sometimes on the internet, instead of posting you wearing Louis or posting you at this fabulous dinner or like just post sometimes that you're going through it? I'm like why the hell would I post? Well, what encouragement is that to my fans? To be bleeding all over them, like with my personal issues? No, I need to go to therapy, like if it when it comes to my personal issues, or see my pastor, but like it's not for me to be posting and crying on the internet.
Speaker 3:You know what I'm saying and I remember a famous contemporary Christian worship leader told me I think we just don't like that you just posted your life is so perfect. You know what I'm saying. And so I feel like with Maverick, we have encouraged the younger generation to really chase after their dreams. Like, just because you're a Christian don't mean you can't sell out an arena. We ain't never seen that before until us. Like, just because you're a Christian don't mean you can't know Justin Bieber, you can't meet Normani normani follow me, victoria monae follow me, everybody follow me. And it was maverick was pop stars and they just was mad because they weren't pop stars. And it sucks because they've made this illusion to where, like, oh no, god's not in that. Like you can't be doing something for Jesus and have all that? Yes, you can.
Speaker 2:It's like that's what we talked about on another podcast. Yes, you can.
Speaker 1:Christian nihilism. Christian nihilism Just because it's big, it's bad Just because it's big.
Speaker 2:It's bad Just because there's love. It's bad Just because and one of the things that I often, one of the things that I don't say, and you're being very real, authentic, right now, I love that. One of the things I often noticed is that the criticism as you grow seemingly come from one sect. Yes, of this space. Yes, it's cultural, it's very cultural. It's very cultural, it's very cultural. What we're talking about, what we're talking, it's like, instead of posting your Louie and Dante going with his business partners on a private jet, but you know, a game of golf will run you. A game of golf with 10 brothers will run you by five figures.
Speaker 1:I think in some ways it's even more insidious than that, right, because I think I mean we know, right like the white guys spend their money, just like we do. Have you seen fill in the blank person's house, their car?
Speaker 3:they just don't post it, they just don't the whatever you told me to do, it has everything, exactly. You know what?
Speaker 1:I'm saying I think and I think that was one of the things that I that it was so interesting when maverick kind of burst on the scene, it was this very oh my gosh, if you know, if you're doing me, if you're successful and you're a worship leader, you definitely shouldn't act like and it was. I think that's cultural, because I think the churches that we probably all grew up in at some point in our lives that's normal for a pastor to have a nice car or a nice suit or a nice house, whereas like in you know, maybe on the other side of things it's maybe not as normal. And I just think, I think for us, what we were trying to be was just ourselves. We're just trying to be authentic, like, yes, we're trying to do.
Speaker 2:we're trying to even do more than that, and I talked about this Inspire people?
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly I was talking about it and I want you to hit on that too. It's like one thing, one thing that gets lost and it's the nuance of this space, it's the nuance of what we do and it's why, like in collaboration, you got to sit down and have dinner with somebody and we got to really begin to stop judging things on the surface, like if you grew up in, respectfully, omaha, nebraska, and all you know is your local Baptist church and how your pastor moves around and how your mom and dad moved around. I respect that. I respect and understand that you may not understand what it's like to grow up as a black man in the deep south and get your head slammed against the car just for driving down the road too fast. That happened to me, and my grandmother has a degree, my mother to me, and my grandmother has a degree. My mother has a degree. My father has a degree, my sister has a degree. We owned more land in my hometown than anybody.
Speaker 2:When I was growing up and, yes, yeah, like I was a straight-A student, nearly perfect SAT score went to college. Didn't matter in that moment and I didn't me, norman. I didn't know what an engineer was when I graduated. I never heard of an engineer when I was graduating high school, simply due to lack of exposure. Right, and I'm talking about my dad. My mom's a pharmacist. My dad has a doctorate in pharmacy. My grandmother is an entrepreneur, has been owning businesses since the 1940 god rest her soul I had never heard of an engineer, you know, never even heard of it, and that's solely based on my lack of exposure to thing, and I and I'm I'm using me as an example because I wasn't some. I didn't grow up in the hood, you know. No disrespect to that, I didn't. No, I grew up very privileged relative to many of my peers and there's a lack of just representation. The person I looked up to with Dr Parents, straight A's was TI, ti and then LeBron and then Drake. No, no, no.
Speaker 3:You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:Those were the people I saw as successful, because back then there was no Robert Smith, there was no Kenneth Chennault. Robert Smith being the private equity owner the richest black Oprah became the richest, but another television star. I knew I wasn't going to the NBA. I knew I wasn't going to rap. I didn't know. So when I went to college the first time I sucked because I didn't have a pathway or I didn't have an example of what success looked like. I knew TI.
Speaker 2:He had the candy, painted cars, he wore the chains. I'm a, at the end of the day, culturally I'm a black man from the South and just because I'm saved doesn't mean there's an erasure of everything that I grew up culturally going through, and it doesn't make me a bad guy or got it. But I remember we was at the Grammys and because I had my chains on, they said I didn't love the Lord. Like that's asinine. You know I'm saying so. It's somewhere in the Saint Laurent suit. Don't love God. A guy with a 50,000 dollar golf clubs don't love God. It's like it's such. It's what they call micro. What is it called? It's microaggressions and bias based upon cultural differences. And these are the moments where, when you look at the Mav kids and y'all make these silly jokes about oh, we're flashy or we're this, we're just not like you. You know y'all shoes dirty, you look like you stink. You know what I mean. Like I don't mean, it's just different culturally and nobody has to.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying this to say, oh, woe is us. Like you know. Oh, we the little black boys. Nah, I'm not saying this to say, oh, woe is us, like you know. Oh, we the little black boys get beat. No, I'm not doing that. I'm saying this to like appreciate that we're giving. We're men that love the Lord, love our wives, love our families, entrepreneurs in our 30s. You know what I'm saying. We came together, we pulled each other up, we found a way to work together, not be crabs in the barrel, collaborate. We don't make content that is degrading to our community. We don't make content that puts people down. We don't make content that is self-deprecating, any of that content that uplifts the Lord every single day.
Speaker 2:Put out a song today, you know we got a song today with Glorilla on it, right, and so it's like oh, I knew they worship the devil Because Glorilla's talking about how much you love the Lord. We worship the devil, she ain't cussing on it. And the question is why do you know Glorilla put an album out. If you don't, if you, if anything right, if we're going to keep it a buck, the only people that should be listening to the Glorilla album is Glorilla fans. Christians shouldn't even be listening to it.
Speaker 2:We didn't make that song. We made Mav House for Christians. That's already well. We made the song with Glorilla for the people in the hospital. We made the song with Glorilla for the people in the hospital, absolutely, after they get through Hold On and TGIF, they're going to roll into Rain On Me and they're going whoa, what's this Glorilla Brand Talking about her baby? Daddy hate her, but God, please help him. Oh, and Kirk said no matter where you are, I ain't too far from God. It's for her fans. There's a plethora of music, plethora of content for people that are already well.
Speaker 1:Becoming all things to win some.
Speaker 2:We become all things to all people to win some. And as Jesus said, the well don't need a doctor. I came to be a physician to the sick. Our job, our mandate, ain't everybody mandate. Not everybody can sit and collab with Glorilla because you can't relate culturally, just as we may not be able to relate culturally with Morgan Wallen. He gonna have to do that collab with somebody. You know what I'm saying. There is a cultural distinction. She grew up Kojic, going to lock-ins. Her middle name is Hallelujah. Get context on a person before you judge it on the surface. And I feel like when it comes to Maverick, when it comes to the artists in Maverick, when it comes to our experiences and why Dante may feel the way he feels and the need to pop out. You know what I'm saying. Sometimes you got to pop out and show the famous. That comes from the cultural way that we grow up. That comes from the way that we are ingratiated in America, because you got to be two times as good to get half as much.
Speaker 3:And understand like a lot of these people in the contemporary Christian space can't do anything else vocally or visually. So sometimes it's a burden on us when we look a certain way and we know like Tasha can go to the BET Awards and smash. You can't send just any old contemporary artist at the MTV Awards and they can smash, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 3:She look a certain way. She got swag Like she. You know, it's the way we present ourselves as black people, I think. Now I don't want us to make it a race thing because they're probably. You got Natalie Grant, you got people that can really blow and stuff like that. But I'm saying sometimes Try something else or we will get asked to do things that you are not going to get. Your favorite artist will not get asked to do, absolutely you know what I'm saying, just because of how we've positioned ourselves and presented ourselves to the world. You know what I'm saying. And it has nothing to do with our faith in Jesus.
Speaker 1:I like to say it like this it's purpose, it's calling yeah, it's what we have been put on this earth to do. Yes, and what we do is between us and God, yes, and the people that he's trying to reach.
Speaker 2:Yes, and how you feel about it is how you feel about it Absolutely, Because we don't do this for a platform, we don't do this for fans, we don't do this for we do this to save souls. We'll leave the 99 for the one, like he would for the one, like he would If it's only one person left and they say, and they do the prayer of salvation, that's what we did this for man. Like I think people get it bit that we're here to maintain some platform for people that are already. Well, we're not. We after the Great Commission, we not after the check that y'all think we after and that's another thing people keep mentioning about like I know what it was like for you to go R&B.
Speaker 2:It ain't about chasing. It's harder, it's much harder. Dante would have made way more money staying as a worship leader writing some of the biggest songs of our generation. We don't get like when we did the y'all that fabric. They chase it. We didn't get paid to do the Will Smith thing, man. We don't get paid to be on Glow Roller's album. We don't get paid to do that stuff. We do that stuff because it's an opportunity to take the gospel somewhere it wouldn't otherwise go. You know what I mean. When these shows are deciding that, when these shows fill with other type of content, decide that they want to have a moment honoring God, the Father, where we're proclaiming the name of Jesus, we should all be collectively celebrating, Not talking about. You shouldn't go there. Like what Do y'all read the Bible? Yeah, Jesus in the pub. Like what Do y'all read the Bible? Yeah, Jesus in the pub. Like he goes through Samaritan to meet the woman at the well. Do y'all read the Bible? Yeah, Like it's in there. So I guess the prodigal son's father shouldn't have took him back because he left. You know what I'm like. What Bible are we reading? Yeah, for sure. And then it's always this use of oh, you're not supposed to mix light and dark. Y'all are misusing that scripture so horribly. That is talking about bringing pagan gods into the temple. That's what it's about. It's about idolatry. It has nothing to do about spending time with sinners. Read the entire passage. It literally goes right from that into talking about the other guys not to bring into God's temple. It has absolutely nothing to do with you sitting next to your sinning, non-believing co-worker at your job or your sinning, non-believing boss at your job. You fellowship with them every single day. You eat lunch with them every single day and you have no problem with it. You have no problem with it. Someone's lifestyle isn't for you to judge, 's not? No, now let me take that back. We should have righteous judgment on the way people live, but we do it in relationship and we do it with grace and truth. Yeah, we do it with grace and truth. If I'm with my brother, dante, and he tells me what he going through, I'm not not going to sit with Dutch and say, hey, bro, let's go. Sin, sin, sin, sin, sin. Right, he got his struggles, I got my struggles, JJ has his struggles. We're not going to sit here and enable each other's struggles. We know what's up, we know the word. We're going to walk with each other together. I ain't got to beat him over the top of the head with the Bible. Say the Bible, say this. He knows what's up, and in my quiet time, in my private time, I'm going to pray for him. I pray to God. He prays for me. I pray for JJ. I'm going to drop hints here and there. That's what relationship looks like. That's what Jesus did. Jesus walked with Judas every day. Every day, Judas was casting out demons, laying hands on people, they getting healed, and he, the same negro that was robbing jesus, turnt on him, kissed him on the cheek. For what? 50 silvers, peter. Walking with him. Every day. They walking with a perfect man that's full of it all, that's god in flesh, and and even him teaching them every day. They fell short. More or less the people that more or less us. So I just like for me the reason why this is so important, with you here. It's like our goal when we got together to do this was it's to save souls. Man Right, it's to get after the thing God want us after. And like we get caught up on all these nuances and fake controversies and like find something that we like. Find something real. Like you got an issue with Maverick. Find a real issue. Go pick out a song that got bad theology and send it to us so we can correct it. Don't be talking about at the BET Awards. We doing a satanic ritual. With what content? With what content? Using scripture from Job? Like how can? What did you say? How can Beelzebub be against Beelzebub? Like how the devil going to use the? You know what I'm saying? Like that's a kingdom divided. You're not going to use the word of God against the word of God. It just doesn't make any sense. Like those are the things where it's like it really grinds my gears and I get on these. Like I get on these about this because, man, it's not that it's not fair, it's disingenuous, yeah, it's disingenuous, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:All the way.
Speaker 3:It's disingenuous man. I just I'm going to stay out of the award show thing because I know what I did.
Speaker 2:What about that, though you know, you went and did the Dance at the Soul Train Award.
Speaker 3:I ate it up, I ate it up. I just wanted to be a star for a little while.
Speaker 2:Do you, and so we've talked about that privately. I want the people to understand, like, what is your reflection on that season? Because we've talked about that privately and I think this will help some young artists, like, as you reflect back on that season and I know we kind of got off. But this is important, like this conversation is super important, because I do believe Dante has gone through some unnecessary strife, just being a 20 year old man finding his journey in life. Just as I believe that there was unnecessary criticism toward what the entire group and the individuals in Maverick City have done and not enough appreciation for what, what, the what these guys really brought to the table and instead of coalescing around and mentoring and that's how I feel- that is how I feel, man, like we should be honored at some point in some ways.
Speaker 3:Like I felt like it was always criticism and trying to prove ourselves to people that you know went before us or just trying to like fit in, you know, trying to make us fit in, and all these. It was a horrible, horrible season of our lives. Being as big as we were because of our own people, our own industry. It was really like hard for us. I'm talking even while we were friends oh, I know we were close friends. We would struggle, because it was always some older person in our world trying to beat us down or say this or spread this room, like really trying to hurt. And I think they didn't look at us as kids because we were so popular, so big and so anointed. You know what I'm saying. They saw us as like their age or older.
Speaker 2:They saw you as competition.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they did, but we were young man, we were like kids trying to figure this out, and there was some crazy stuff being said about us, and so it will always distract us. You know what I'm saying. So that caused a lot of strife. But as far as the season I went through with my last album and with Wind Me Up, it's just something I felt like was appropriate for where I was. You know what I'm saying. That's what I was doing, like that's what I was on. You know what I'm saying. So I wanted to have a party on the beach. I did a video partying on the beach with some of them A lot of them was my friends, you know what I'm saying. And so I've always tried to be honest in my art and honest with my fans about where I am. I mean with discretion, of course, but like that was just honestly where I was. I was having fun, and not fun like recklessness, but I was outside.
Speaker 2:Do you understand why people had an issue with it? Yeah, I was outside.
Speaker 3:Do you understand why people had an issue with it? Yeah, I made it knowing like some people wouldn't be fond of it, but a lot of people liked it, a lot of people loved it and it opened doors for me that weren't open before. And I don't know what my next thing is. You know what I'm saying, but I don't regret doing that.
Speaker 2:I got a different question. I'm saying, but I'm not, I don't regret doing that. I got a different question and in a different podcast we talked about the supporters saw you guys as their worship pastors. Did you feel like you were the worship pastor to people following you To support us, the fans, the supporters Like did you see yourself as the person guiding them through their journey of Christianity?
Speaker 3:Mm-hmm. I always felt like the voice of the young. I always felt like I was there for young people, though.
Speaker 2:Do you think that that I'm going to press here? You don't feel like that gave you a larger responsibility than just what you felt? Yeah, I feel like I carried you a larger responsibility than what, than just what you felt. Yeah, I feel I carried the responsibility really yeah so when you made a decision from you so you recognize, we admit that you were you felt like you were their worship pastor. You don't think that then, going to do something I didn't?
Speaker 3:fight their worship pastor.
Speaker 1:I felt like I was a voice for the young people.
Speaker 3:That's what I'm saying. I felt like a voice into their lives, like I was their big brother. I was always on Instagram live goofing off, being honest, like my fans done heard me say more than Bad Bunny. Like, you know what I'm saying. Like they, if you follow me, you know what I'm saying. Like, if you follow me, you know me. Like, that's just like I'm cool, like and I'm really. I'm as honest as I can be without you know too much. You know what I'm saying and I feel like that's always been my spiel, like Chandler going to get on the internet and preach. They ain't never heard me do that. Like Naomi's a preacher. They ain't never heard me do that like Naomi's a preacher. They ain't never heard me do that. That's never been I do. I do preach because I love the word, I love Jesus. But I'm saying I I've always carried my brand as an artist, always, even when I signed with Bethel.
Speaker 3:I'm the first one to not put out a worship record. Joyful was the first Forrest Frank like, like I'm going. I mean they was mad at me. I mean they didn't think it would be a hit and it was, but at the time, like it was like why are you not doing Champion? Why can't that be your first single? You know what I'm saying. And so I just did it with the collective. But my point is I never boxed into this like worship pastor to the nations type of idea. I always felt like I was just a voice to young people. I always posted my fashion, what I was wearing. I mean, even if you go back to the beginning, like, I met Maverick City and Gucci, like, and so I always was into that stuff. I always was into art, like paintings and stuff like that. I always been that person in the group you know what I'm saying To bring everybody forward culturally. I was culturally cooler than everybody they churchy for real, I was never as churchy as they were.
Speaker 3:They would all say that you taught Norman how to dress. No, norman was after that. Norman already had his stuff on. But Norman now he dressed nice. Norman used to dress like a rapper for real.
Speaker 2:Now he dressed real nice. I always told you he dressed real nice. Now I'm a Negro from the South, I'm a country country.
Speaker 3:But what I meant, chandler and the rest of them, bruh, yeah, it's like I put them on game everybody cool in the group because I really was like the person, like hey, tony man, we got, we got a couple more pink hair on the videos.
Speaker 2:Man tony had pink hair.
Speaker 1:Nah, oh, somebody had pink hair yeah, I want to say this real quick.
Speaker 1:I I was just thinking about even the way that he kind of said it earlier, but I wanted to kind of give it more of a voice the way that the industry kind of there were a select few worship leaders and influential people in the worship industry and space that really kind of took to you guys and affirmed you publicly and then it just seems like they kind of just turned their backs on you when there was a little bit of a difference or maybe even disagreement about how you guys did certain things. And I just don't, I agree with you and I wanted just to say that back to you when you were talking earlier about how you went through some things that just were painful trying to feel like being accepted by people who had gone before you and not really getting that and always feeling like you had to try to prove yourself. And yeah, I mean, I think that was something that I noticed. Again, I think it goes back to just what we talked about earlier with being cultural and some of those differences.
Speaker 3:They loved it. In the beginning I was like a shiny toy because of how I act. Like this personality got me into a lot of doors. Like I remember getting off stage at K-Love and getting offered a tour from 4 King Country, the biggest worship group in the world, like just like that. Like I remember getting offered, like I was getting so many tours I was the first one to ever get offered a real tour on their own $3 million tour tour, like, and it was just because I was a shiny, like they love this personality in that context. And I think once, once I started, you know, with the bad bunny and the little, once I started being too honest and stuff. That's when it got really bad for me. But I'm, I'm like, I, I, me, but I want to end with this with me. I'm just going to end with this. I feel like we should have, I feel like me. Chan Nay, aaron Brandon yeah, joel.
Speaker 1:Why do you hesitate with Brandon?
Speaker 3:Because Brandon's doing what he wants to do, what he always wanted to do. What do you mean by that? He's doing what he always wanted to do, and that's do what he's doing right now.
Speaker 3:I'm not even mad that I didn't perform Gratitude on Doves. I used to be mad about that, him and Benjamin, and I was a third rider. I wasn't even mad about it. I just feel like these are the people that I've absence of him, the rest of the group. I feel like we could have stuck together and changed this is another reason I don't put him in this because I feel like we could have changed a whole genre if we stuck together. There would have been a hundred of us. We could have raised a hundred of us. We could have raised a hundred of us. These kids that get trying to be us don't know what it's like to be close to us. They're doing it Like we made each other great. Like writing a song with me you're going to learn how to write a song. Like leading worship with Chandler you're going to learn how to lead worship For real.
Speaker 1:It was a bunch like you started. Everybody starts getting good.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know what I'm saying, like everybody, just starts, like hearing Aaron arrange a record with keys, like you're going to learn how to play the Maverick way, like that's when y'all came up with the Maverick way. I'm like, I know the Maverick way, like you know what I'm saying. Like, and I feel like these we I hate this. I hate I'm about to say this but us versus them. We would have been like, stop listening to all these people telling us what to do. We fighting against them. These are our opposers. We really had some crazy warfare going on, absolutely.
Speaker 1:You know what?
Speaker 3:I'm saying we would listen to little pockets that mattered to us Maybe I'm closer to this crew and then maybe Brandon's closer to this crew. We would listen to little pockets that mattered to us, like maybe I'm closer to this crew and then maybe Brandon's closer to this crew. So we would all be talking to people trying to come together. I wish we would have just sat down and been like y'all. I wish we had wisdom. I wish we was praying and we had wisdom to know like no, they're trying to tear us apart.
Speaker 2:I told my pastor that. I told my pastor that I said man, the one thing I regret is that we didn't recognize the devil. Doesn't take kindly to you putting 10,000 people in an arena, in a territory. In a principality we don't wrestle against flesh and blood, you know what I'm saying. In a principality, lifting up the name of Jesus, young kids, 18 to 35, all races, colors, creeds, sexual orientations, they all in there lifting up the name of Jesus and the spiritual warfare that we were going to come up against. I think the one, my biggest regret, you know, we put passes on the road, we did all of these things, but the level of preparation necessary for us to be ready for those moments, I just don't think we did the work necessary to be ready?
Speaker 3:Heck, no, bro you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:I just, I really don't think we did the work necessary to be ready for those moments, and that is my biggest regret. Like the fast thing, it's not that we didn't fast, it's not that we didn't pray, you know what I'm saying, it's that we needed to be 40 days, 40 nights guarding the Gethsemane.
Speaker 2:Gethsemane I can't even pronounce it Gethsemane, gethsemane. Like we need to be sweating thick as blood, like his blood, like that's the type of stuff we was up against and we allow our um optimism and and negligence almost to to to lead us to where we are today. But the beauty, the beauty is all things work together for the good of those that love the lord and are called according to his purpose, you know, I mean. So.
Speaker 3:That's why you see this book, this, this reconnection taking place, because it's necessary yeah, and then everybody just like over it, like I feel, like everybody that was in the group that knows what happened, like I remember, pulling up to the first date we had never done a show for real. We did a juneteenth thing, right, it was like it for multiple worship leaders and stuff.
Speaker 3:It wasn't necessarily our show, but we did see a lot of people come up, but we were from Atlanta, we built it in Atlanta, so it wasn't that crazy. I remember getting to our first show Sacramento we had never toured before and we're like, oh okay, we don't know what's going to be there, but we're going to still give it our best. Like all the stuff we heard it was sold out, right, it, yeah, it was sold out, but we heard there's gonna be a lot of people there. We ain't know what was gonna happen, bro, like it was like what you would see on a justin bieber documentary.
Speaker 1:I'm so glad that you said like the bands, like boom, boom, boom boom hitting the band, like like I'm so glad you said that. I remember being in that room. I've traveled all over the world, I've, you know, like I've been in rooms. I have never in my life felt that much faith in a room. When we got it was like I remember sitting on the side of the stage film like, oh man, anything could happen. So like if you, if someone has, if someone came in here dead, they would be be raised. It was that much faith. I could feel it. I remember you. I don't think Tony was there. I think you were there. I was there, but it was. I remember talking after the show and feeling like I think I said this. I was like this is unstoppable.
Speaker 3:If we ever did it again, it would have to be like that. I don't want to do choreo. I'm glad you said that. I always say that I want it to be like that.
Speaker 2:Just lead and worship baby, but we had to do that.
Speaker 3:We had to go to the next little light. It got so crazy. And then y'all did the Kirk collab and it was just getting crazy and crazy and crazy.
Speaker 2:I mean that was I mean you're talking about. That's the biggest Christian tour of all time.
Speaker 3:I know.
Speaker 2:All time Was it Kingdom. There's never been a tour bigger, wow, never in the history of Christian music. The eight of the biggest shows ever were on that tour. The biggest ever was DC.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 3:Some reason.
Speaker 1:I thought Elevation out towards you, but maybe not.
Speaker 2:You're trying to be funny. Elevation, they do a good job. They do well. You know what I'm saying. They bring Pastor out, they have church, but Kingdom was a little different.
Speaker 3:Respectfully, you still the CEO of True Music Group. Yeah, I love True man. They my family. I have freedom to make what I want to make, work with who I want to work with, and that's something I didn't even get when I was with my Christian label. You know what I'm saying. It's no shade, but yeah, I like that. I get to like decide where I want to go. Like you know, I'm flying to work with Taylor Hill soon. I've done Jerry Wanda this record. I've worked with Chaz this record. I've worked with Kemper this record, brandon Bailey, just whoever I want to.
Speaker 3:I'm working with y'all writing songs for y'all. They just they chill. You know what? Know, I mean, for the most part, they, they just I feel like I I really needed, uh, help, like big brother, big sister. You know I'm saying I feel like they helped me and I needed people that didn't need my money or my fame. You know, it wasn't contingent upon that. Like it really is all love because like they don't really need my, they don't need me to be to pop off. You know I'm saying, even though that's what we want, it's different when you work with people that don't necessarily need it. They're just doing it because they think you're a star.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so what would you say was your maverick moment?
Speaker 3:my what moment?
Speaker 2:your maverick moment. You know a maverick, you know, you know what a maverick is. What do you? What do you think is your moment, your breakaway, independent?
Speaker 3:unconventional. I think my maverick moment of all time was when I dropped a record with. When I dropped Champion with Bethel and it was like one of the most popular songs CCLI had one time. And then I dropped it's all. The same year I dropped a record with you guys, maverick. It was super popular. My songs were like selling and I was really happy. My songs were selling. And in the same year I was like I want Chandler and Stephanie Gray singing on Voice of God one-off. And then we did the Old Church Basement record and when I got to the Grammys on Doves and Stellars I was like dang, I could do it. I really felt like that was a maverick moment because no one's ever done that, like no collective member.
Speaker 1:How many nominations did you have that year seven at the grammys, seven I remember I remember and I got a tattoo.
Speaker 3:I had three in one category. It was like dante bow, voice of god. Dante bow, joyful dante bow featuring chandler wait on you. Actually two was me and Chandler. And then they said CeCe and Anthony Brown, and my grandma looked at me and was like you already won, you don't need to worry, you already won. But that was just with one years of work and I feel like that's a maverick, somebody that does it different, that changes the game and don't go with the status quo. And if I had not ever been blackballed, I would be one of the biggest Christian stars.
Speaker 2:You feel like you was blackballed. Yeah, who blackballed?
Speaker 3:you A ton of people, really, yeah, a ton of people blackballed me. A ton of people talk about me. It's good content, like I feel like I gave them good content and they took it and ran with it. And then also privately, like higher-ups, yeah, talking about me. Like I said, I was hosting the Dubs, like I was doing some crazy stuff, like I was on a huge tour with 4K country, about to get off and go on my own joyful tour, but at that point, my reputation was going left. Not just because of me, though, because just people dogging me, talking about me privately, thinking it's funny what's happening to me, including Brandon, just thinking it's funny to talk about me with people and stuff like that, and so it's all love.
Speaker 2:I want to hit something because you've hit this point a few times and so, just for clarity's sake, I don't want someone to watch this and feel like we were beating. I mean, we were beating up on someone, but this is Mavericks on the mic and Brandon is welcome to come and say his piece whenever he likes. But what is the sensitivity around the Brandon thing for you Like? Just put it on the table.
Speaker 3:Because that's my brother, that's the person I love the most, that's the person I roomed with. Gave him wisdom.
Speaker 1:I mean I would even say it this way Like y'all. I mean y'all were the first people there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that too. But also we were friends, like we were real friends, like we helped each other become who we are today, writing styles like Brandon was gonna be on my album before, like he did my album that I trashed like before he was even signed. You know what I'm saying. So, like I, I, I guess for me I would. I have some kind of commodity when I have commodity when it comes to branding. I have respect when it comes to him, even if I found out something devastating like or something tragic about his character or whatever. Like I never talked about him to this day, you know I'm saying, but he was the one person I text and I said I will never talk to you again. And he has to live with his first ever huge song number one record, gold, probably about to go, platinum record was with me like right after he did that so why won't you ever text him again?
Speaker 2:I did, I told him that?
Speaker 3:why did I tell him that? Cause I was hurt. He's my best friend, but what did he do? He pretty much was the one advocating to get me out. You know what I'm saying? The members told me that and you felt like that it hurt my feelings.
Speaker 2:he could text me, call me one advocating to get me out, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 3:The members told me that and you felt like that.
Speaker 2:It hurt my feelings. He could text me call me.
Speaker 3:He tried to after the fact. But you know, I saw him at Jen Johnson's dove party and we talked and it's all love. It's just that I'm here telling my story, yeah, and you're part of that. Yeah, We've're part of that. Yeah, I'm, I'm we forgiving each other? You know what I'm trying to say. Like we've talked since then, we hugged, we like texting, like we DM here and there. You know what I mean, but I think what.
Speaker 2:What makes and I'm sorry I'll just. I think that good and nuanced is that what you guys are getting the insight into is like what real family looks like. You know, I've worked with my family. My family's fired me before and we've reconciled. A year later we came back together and I would do anything for them. But the opportunity to be raw in your emotion in a process like this allows for people that may have existing church hurt, gone through things in the past, to look at that situation and say, hey, man, like Dante was really hurt by that, you know what I'm saying and to hear him say that they're good now maybe I should Be straight yeah you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:Maybe I should make a call to so-and-so yeah, because I know what, I know that and because we're going to keep it. We're going to keep it a buck, with Mavericks on the mic, and so when this comes out, there's going to be a lot of oh, they didn't have to say that, they didn't have to. It's life.
Speaker 3:And it's love now. Yeah, that's the thing too. Like it ain, we're pretty much giving y'all what the questions that you were asking back then that we all stayed quiet on. You know what I'm saying. I feel like you're just getting insight on the what, when, why, how. You know what I mean, and it has nothing to do with where we stand Today, today, yeah, right now. Like he could come and sit beside me, I would hug him Like I miss him, like I miss him, I love him. You know what I'm saying. Like we made history together. I wrote everybody's biggest songs, like from Joel to Chandler Not even really Chandler, yeah, I did. But Chandler wrote a bigger one, jyra.
Speaker 2:But everybody else. Nobody else did, Nobody else did. That's funny.
Speaker 3:Chandler did write a bigger one, and I feel like when you do that with people, you learn from them, you really get close to them and you become brothers. You know what I'm saying, and so that's why I was hurt you know, what I mean. We wrote a lot of records together and, yeah, hopefully this interview is heard with grace too, and respect, because that's all it is right now.
Speaker 2:You know it, man. You know we're gonna. That's that's what we do, man. Listen, we sat down with the goat man, dante bow, thank you bro, it's been a, it's been an amazing pleasure.
Speaker 1:Man, I think this is probably one of the rawest, realest yeah conversations yeah it's ever ever been had in the space I told, told him this that's what gave me a voice too, For sure.
Speaker 1:I told you I'd do this, but I just want to publicly give you your flowers, man, and just tell you that I mean you created a sound that was anointed and it touched the world and you were the spearhead of that, and there's no Maverick City if there's not Dante Bo, and I just I want to publicly say that so people can, and I mean we all know that, but I just want you to know that, man, I love you, thank you.
Speaker 2:That's what this is all about, man. Y'all gonna see. Y'all gonna see a lot more of this man, because you know, we spent the half the day people saying how y'all going to kick Dante Bo out and then go collab with Glorilla.
Speaker 3:Y'all never had a problem with me talking about bad money.
Speaker 2:You know it's so much misinformation surrounding who we are, how decisions were made. I hope that so much of this stuff is cleared up and this is going to open us up. And I like Glorilla yeah, we love her. I hope that so much of this stuff is cleared up and this is going to open up and I like Glorilla yeah, we love her. I love Glorilla. Her middle name is Hallelujah man.
Speaker 2:She's nice, it don't get much better than that. So listen, this has been Mavericks on the Mic. We had an amazing conversation with our brother, dante Bo. Look man Like, share and subscribe. This is going to be one of the legendary pods, so can't wait Signing off, baby.