Mavericks on the Mic
Mavericks move differently. They are known for disrupting the status quo and rewriting the script. Mavericks on the Mic uncovers the “Maverick Moments” that have shaped the lives of our guests. From personal stories of risk, unexpected pivots to moments of faith and resilience, these stories will inspire you to see your own Maverick Moment — the one that changed everything, even if no one else knows about it.
Mavericks on the Mic
Naomi Raine: HERstory with Maverick City Music
We sat down with Naomi Raine, one of the foundational voices of Maverick City, to talk about what really went down behind the scenes. From the highs of Grammys and sold-out tours to the real-life struggles that come with growth, this episode is about keeping it real—no filters, no fluff.
Here’s the breakdown:
🎙️ The Foundation: How a collective of "unknowns" started a global movement.
🎙️ Challenges Faced: Handling public drama, internal politics, and staying focused on the mission.
🎙️ Faith First: Why everything we do points back to God, even when it gets messy.
🎙️ Reflections on Leadership: The wins, the losses, and what we’d do differently.
If you’ve ever wondered how faith intersects with business, creativity, and culture, this is for you. It’s about building something that lasts—while staying true to who you are and who you’re called to be.
Chapter Markers
00:00 - Real Talk Begins: Welcome to the unfiltered story of Maverick City
05:15 - Fame Hits Hard: Growing pains in the spotlight
15:42 - Hot Topics: Will Smith, Dante Bowe, and the controversies
25:30 - Collective vs. Individual: The tug-of-war behind the music
35:05 - Keeping the Faith: Balancing ministry, fame, and relationships
45:50 - What Went Wrong?: Missteps, regrets, and moving forward
01:05:40 - Creative Tensions: Theology, talent, and keeping it real
01:15:11 - A Legacy of Loss: The cost of following the call
01:25:00 - Faith for the Future: Hopes for reconciliation and revival
01:40:46 - Naomi’s Moment of Truth: Choosing faith over everything
01:56:43 - Signing Off: Gratitude, lessons, and what’s next
#MaverickCityMusic #MusicInterviews #GospelMusic #NaomiRaine
🔥 Drop a comment to let us know who you want to see on the Mic.
👉 Don’t forget to rate, share and subscribe
🎧 Want to watch the conversation? Watch on YouTube
That's not a thing up north, Like you either say it or you not. You like footy streets for you and church.
JJ:Things started to really take off. It was kind of like they did like an about face and just made it really weird, Like you guys are. It just feels different and you guys are doing this for different motivations. Now, no, no, no.
Norman:We do the same. We don't do the same. We provide the seed, the saving, we don't do the saving. We provide the seed, the opportunity. He does the rest.
Naomi:I think we should have valued Aaron the same way y'all valued us for, Because I don't think y'all realize how much of an integral part he played in Maverick City. I think that's the biggest mistake that y'all made, if I'm honest. And then he's still not treating Gentiles the way that he's treating Jews.
Naomi:People have issues and they have to keep working and God is like it's okay, but feed my sheep Do this stuff anyway, and so that's the thing I want to get, and I don't think that we should excuse nonsense. No, we have to hold each other accountable.
JJ:This is what I love about Marist City it is the best of the best coming together, and when you come together and you collaborate, everybody has to lay a strength down. What's up everybody. Welcome to another episode of Mavericks on the Mic. My name is JJ, I'm Norman.
Norman:And today we have our very own, the queen of Maverick City. She goes by.
Naomi:Naomi Reigns.
JJ:Let's go baby, we kind of already started this a little bit. We just happened to turn it on.
Norman:It's the longest free podcast conversation that we've had, but hey, we're here now we got. You know it's a lot to go through, man. Yeah, for sure it's a lot to go through man, yeah, for sure it's a lot to go through, for sure.
JJ:Lots of history, lots of songs, lots of stories to tell, Absolutely. Lots of stories to recount, Absolutely. But yeah, I think, man, let's start from the beginning. Like, how did you get here? How did this whole thing start? I know these are things that we really don't talk too much about. I know last night in the concert you were talking about how Maverick City was named after Atlanta, and so I just I don't know, maybe this would be a great place to start, Like, how did you get connected with and start end up starting Maverick City?
Naomi:Okay. So Matt, like before, Maverick was a group, we were. It was like a publishing company, I guess. Not a company but just a songwriting. I don't know what were y'all. It was you and Tony, yeah, Some Negroes in the shed, but even before the shed, because I think I met y'all at Bethel. Yeah, I was there to do like a set there.
JJ:Okay, so we were there for—BSSM was doing a Black History—this is the weirdest—.
Naomi:Very strange.
JJ:No shade to anybody, but it was like a Black History special at Bethel in Reading.
Naomi:It was the first time they ever had all Black worship leaders.
JJ:Yeah, so we all like, for some weird reason we find ourselves all out there. Yes, Before we like did the event, I think we decided we were going to write and like do some songs together. Like write some songs together in this house, and that kind of turned into you getting asked to like can you sing some songs?
Naomi:Because I didn't know any of that.
JJ:Yeah, like we sent them to you, like what two, three hours before the recording Literally and JJ's like can you sing this?
Naomi:It was, I'm Loved, I'm.
JJ:Loved yeah.
Naomi:And I was like, oh, this song is beautiful. And I didn't want to say yes, I wasn't that scared, but I was like, whatever, let me Went back, tried to learn it and ended up singing it there at that house in Bethel, I think. By the time I got home, tony was texting like hey, this stuff is really good. We think we want to just release the music with y'all singing it. And so I was like, ok, cool, that sounded fun. He was like here we're doing some writing camps. Do you want to come? I'd never been to a writing camp, so I was like like sure, like I'll come. I think he ended up texting like a few days later he's like Maverick City question mark and I'm like, oh, that name like feels weird to me. I'm like it just sounds rebellious, um, and and so I was like okay, I mean not that I had anything to do with it, but I was like, okay, fine.
Naomi:So came to the writing camps. Um, there were definitely two of them. I remember the first one. That's when I met Brandon for the first time. I think I don't know if he was there. He wasn't there at the. Yeah, I met Brandon for the first time. There met Aaron for the first time, met Joelle for the first time, trying to think of who else it was. There were just a bunch of people no, what was like your sense?
JJ:I mean, obviously you got invited into this thing. It was writers, like all these artists. There was a clear, it was very clear that we were trying to do something multicultural, something that was different. But, like, what was your general sense? As you were like kind of coming into and meeting some of these people for the first time and being able to be a part of the camps, like what did you feel? What did you sense? What were you hearing?
Naomi:so, honestly, I did not necessarily feel I don't. I don't think it was blatant to me that we were doing a multicultural thing. I just thought it was a bunch of writers, yeah. So I just thought it was I, because I was new to the space. I was like, oh, these people are all part of this space. It wasn't until after my first right. Um, I think my first right was very uncomfortable, um because what did you write?
JJ:do you remember?
Naomi:I know tammy had was there, who she made me feel more comfortable. But, um, I think I think daniel bashta was in my first right too, um, but I had never written with white men before. So there was, oh, benji was in my in my first right too. I had good. I didn't realize like I had a good right, I had a good first right, but I was super uncomfortable because I had never had to relate with people like that and stuff. That I thought was like hey, we should say this in a song. It's like no, we can't do that. Like, let's say it this way, um, and they were more, I guess, more seasoned as writers. So I was just kind of like, okay, like I guess that that's how we're supposed to write a song, um, so it was kind of uncomfortable for me at first, but I thought it was a cool experience. Like hey, a bunch of writers in the same place, like I get to be creative, um, and write these songs. But I don't know if I think everybody felt this way, like I don't know if I'm good enough to be like in this space, until you start realizing that everybody feels that way and you're kind of like, oh, this is just like normal, except for the people that were like writers already. So I remember this moment, like after we would come down, maybe from like the last write, and then it was like you could go out and do whatever.
Naomi:I remember, um, at that buckhead house there were a bunch of guys that would like sit around the the camp, what is that called the fire pit, um, and they were talking and it was like business, um, executives there and talking.
Naomi:So it kind of felt like we were these writers. And then there was something else happening over here that was like the business and you were supposed to like like Tony would introduce you to these people and it'd be like hey, like you're supposed to kind of like make a good impression or whatever. It just felt a little strange. So it's almost like there were two things happening, like it was like the super creative part, and then there was like this business going on that I personally felt like I don't even want to be a part of that, um, but maybe it's because I'm a woman, maybe it's because I've never really been in this space, but I know like the guys were very into that. I know Brandon was very in that space, um and um, and I think Dante too. I feel like as time went on Chandler more became in that business space. I kind of stayed away from that.
Norman:That's good. How would you advise? I think this is the comment talked about. We talked about this on an early episode, where EJ talked about the difference between being a worship leader and being a worship artist, and when you bring commerce into the business, you have to have at least a respect for the business aspect and a lot of time worship artists wanted to be there. They wanted to be solely worship to God and they don't want the business to even exist at all. How do you, how would you advise a worship artist to deal with that dichotomy?
Naomi:Yeah, I think, as an intellectual right and as a person who actually studies the Bible, I think God cares about business. So to me, you have to, you have to learn to try to do it his way. I think some like worship leaders and worship artists oh, my goodness, y'all about to get me to say something Like. I think that we are taught in these worship conferences that anything that looks like work or business, or effort or performance, or anything that looks like an applause for you is bad Christian nihilism is what we call it Christian nihilism.
JJ:Christian nihilism the assumption that if something is big, N-I-H-L-I-S-M yeah, it's like the assumption, that like.
Norman:No, I like the definition of that word. It doesn't mean that Okay.
Naomi:Well, let's think it out.
Norman:Nihilism means that it's like a belief in the lack of the existence of morals, and so I think that when he was attempting to win, when one slide used that, he's attempting to say that because something is big that Christians are saying it lacks those foundations.
Naomi:Sure yeah, which I think that's what she's trying to say. Well, I think the philosophical definition of it means extreme skepticism, maintaining that nothing in the world has a real existence. So I think I kind of get why they would say it Like. I get why they would maybe attribute nihilism to it, because it's like, the good things that you do it's not real. You know like, so you singing well and hitting every note doesn't matter because Jesus doesn't care about that.
Naomi:And it's like, actually, I think God does care that I write notes if I've been given a gift to sing Not that he's going to kill me if I don't, but I think if he's giving you something and that was the gift that he gave you to bless other people I would think that he would want you to present it in an excellent fashion. You know what I mean. And so I think that there's this discouragement of anything surrounding excellence or multiplication or making more of something, and I think it's because some people go too far with it and they can start to attribute that with their worth and their value. And I don't think that you can teach one or the other. I think you have to teach people hey, this is important, but you can't find your value in it.
Naomi:And here's the thing it doesn't make you valuable but God does actually value it. That's hard People don't want to live in the tension of. God wants me to multiply what I've been given. These are like I just it blows my mind when we take one portion of scripture and make it everything and, rather than taking the whole counsel right, the whole thing that the Lord gave us. And if I could really argue this, I really believe Jesus spoke more about being a good steward and multiplication of what you've been given than what they're calling being humble, because I don't even think that's true humility. I think it's. I think it's a way you ever see.
Naomi:Oh, you ever see those those movies where somebody is like this is good like religious and they like beating themselves like I don't know what it's called, but they're like beating themselves to pay for what they did. Penance, penance, yes, yes, I think that worship, some worship leaders and artists, are trying to pay a penance.
Norman:They're trying to work their way into salvation. They're trying to work for the salvation they got for free.
Naomi:And look more, look more like Christian.
Norman:He talks about this too. It's like when you pray that fast, like they want to, that's what it is. You know what I'm saying? When you pray that fast, you know, don't walk around looking like your breath's stinking.
Norman:Like, look fit, look like you have joy while you're doing this for me, right, you don't need to, or you get your reward, I think, something that y'all hitting on that is so so, so, so good. It's two things. I'm going to give y'all my perspective. Y'all hit me Because I ain't never been in none of these right rooms. You know what I mean. I'm the business guy that Naomi be something. I wouldn't let them go fires I don't like fires.
Norman:I'm a self-fire, I'm going to say this because she can't say it. Whatever they was talking about, at them, fires wasn't worth nothing anyway, I wouldn't know.
Naomi:I wouldn't hear, I would.
Norman:We can't do it but no, no.
Naomi:It's the thing I think it's twofold, I think it's twofold.
Norman:I think that something we miss. So there's a dichotomy in church. There's always been a dichotomy in church. Because there's a dichotomy in America. You have black people, you have white people, you have black culture, you have white culture. Then you have Christianity, and when you think about white Baptists and black Baptists, they could not be more diametrically opposed, right. They couldn't be more different, right, and that just is what it is right, and I say this for these reasons. There are certain and I never thought of Christianity as an ethnicity until earlier like Hinduism is an ethnicity in India. Like you're going to have Hindu practices just in your everyday life, simply because you grew up in India. Like there's certain foods you're going to eat, there's certain ways you're going to dress. Like Islam is an ethnicity as well as a religion. There's food, eating, way you talk, cultural things. There's culture, like when something becomes culture language that's an ethnicity. That's literally what it is. But we don't see Christianity that way.
Naomi:When you talk about I think we do, but okay, we don't talk about it. I don't think we don't talk about it.
Norman:There's no language for that.
JJ:There's no I didn't even don't talk about it. There's no language for that.
Norman:There's no like that even go back to the conversation we were having yesterday. You know what I'm saying. When some people they don't profess because they don't know.
Naomi:They don't mean nothing to you.
Norman:Like you ever seen the kids shout? They don't know what that like. I'm telling you, I didn't grow up shouting, so when I was at church I used to always say why do these people running around here like that, they crying every Sunday like I'm going to stomp my feet? That ain't no mean nothing. That's what I thought. It was, my ignorance.
Naomi:I think that's a down south thing to just say you. Christian because you grew up in the. Bible.
JJ:Belt.
Naomi:That's not a thing up north, like you either say it or you not. You like footy streets or and church, I done got.
Norman:But in the South, that's what I said. You grew up, you're going to get on the church, You're going to go to church. You ain't got no choice, and then you let them decide. That's why a lot of people, when they talk about guerrilla that was the thing I was talking about there's so many people I said she's like my cousin. There's so many people that grow up knowing church, knowing God, getting saved them, baptized, all of that they don't know Adam Smith. You know what I'm saying.
Naomi:But I think that's the reason why and I'm going to just use their term the Christian nihilism thing exists, because-.
Norman:I was getting to that. Sorry, no, I was getting to that.
Naomi:I think it's like well, how do we differentiate, how do we establish what our culture is and what's important? And I don't ever want to be mistaken for saying that humility is not important, or like keeping first things first, like the reason that we do this, our motive, who we are like. I think all of that is important and it has to be, it has to be prioritized. But I think to teach people in a lopsided way actually puts them into a workspace thing. That is the opposite of our faith and our belief system, especially with creatives and with people that are in ministry, because you feel like that's your gift and you actually start to find value in how humble you can appear or seem or be, rather than what Christ did for you and the opportunity that he's given you to even, like, preach this gospel or be successful in ministry.
Norman:Yeah, this is the thing that I wanted to hear and this is why I talk about race and culture, because I think that what's difficult in America, that's not difficult in other religions, in other places, is the dichotomy of race. And we are so afraid to talk about race because people, because it, they feel like it pins you into an argument. But the reality is this the way you matriculate through life and the reason, the way scripture speaks to you, is based on your experiences of life. Right, if I know, like boom, it's a reality. My mama would tell me if you get pulled over, I'd rub in the deep south. Santa's gonna do a cop. Let's slam my head against the door. You know, bust my lip when I was in senior high school and when I called my mama. You know, bust my lip when I was in senior high school and when I called my mom.
Norman:You know what she said you shouldn't have been speeding. You shouldn't have been speeding. What Like what? You want me to go to the gym? You shouldn't have been speeding. That's not a reality for a white dude in the South. You know what I'm saying. It's just not. And so to tell me, like just an understanding of how your faith is Like, where I get the self-control to not cuss a cop out Now I got a little paper, you know, now I can get me a lawyer. Now I get you know it comes from my faith. Make a statement that this is how you should say, this is how you should express.
Norman:What you're removing is a few things. You're removing the human experience from the way they express their faith. Right, I think what happens a lot is that, because it's different, most black kids walk without a father. That's statistically true. A lot of our wealth, our Caucasian careers, grew up in a two-parent household where both their parents was there and they had jobs, especially in the church. There's a difference in experience and the things that they're going to focus on, the issues that they're going to have, the way that they deal with those issues. Like you know, all right, cool, you grew up under the pressure. You always had everything. You're probably not going to be flashing when you get some money. You're probably just not because you're used to having it. For a black dude, they never had nothing. They came from nothing. His mama ain't had nothing. His grandma ain't had nothing. His grandma ain't had nothing. When he gets some money, culturally, what he has seen and how people, it's not that he is materialistic, that's the culture. That's the culture. Yeah, where.
Naomi:I would challenge that a little bit. I agree, for some people that is a thing, but I think that in a culture so remember, like Christianity is a culture, but also America is a culture, absolutely, and capitalism, I think, is a god of our culture. Materialism is a thing. So I think to, once you get something, to now become that and be flashy and do the things. It suggests that that was the thing of most importance to you. I disagree, and I'm you disagree, but I think I can't Remember what I said. I think that's the case for some. I think for others, some people are using Christianity to get by until they make something of themselves and then it becomes well, now I don't need, I don't need to do things, I don't need to be modest in my appearance, and that's.
Norman:Oh yeah, I got to get out of the door. I don't disagree with you. I actually don't disagree.
Naomi:And you know I don't disagree with you. I don't think that just because you are, you wear what you got or you spend a bunch of money on. Just because you wear what you got or you spend a bunch of money on hello I got an LV bag over here and a few more at home. I'm not saying we can't spend money or do what we want with our money. I think for some people, though, it becomes the main thing.
Naomi:Yes, and Christianity becomes a means to an end, like let me get to what I want and now I don't actually have to follow the tenets of this culture that we keep saying, that we have.
Norman:You know what I mean, what I'm trying to get, what I'm trying to get, what I'm trying to have the conversation mature into and as we go through these episodes, you'll find a common theme is this that just because you got a $3 million lake house that nobody can price, doesn't mean I'm flashy because I'm wearing a Rolex. That's what I'm saying. The way, culturally, our community expresses wealth is different based on where you look, because I know you know JJ expresses his wealth very differently than I may express mine. You express your wealth differently than a uh MJ may have expressed hers.
Norman:What I'm saying is that, culturally, it's not like someone isn't wrong because they express themselves differently than you. What I was getting at about when you talk about, look, when you were talking about, they don't want. Um, they tell you that if you're, if it's work or there's business associated with it, or that it's wrong. That's something that, like worship leaders, get taught. There's a that start that started a long time ago with religion in and of itself, because the less people knew about the business, the more you can take advantage of them.
Naomi:Right.
Norman:That's really, that's the heart of that and that is what's been preached, and I think that's wrong.
JJ:Yeah.
Norman:I've always thought it was wrong. I've always thought that not being straight up and straightforward when it comes to business is an issue, and that's when you'll see these huge conglomerate organizations, churches, making hundreds of millions of dollars. They worship leaders begging people for a place to stay. Like that's to me, no.
Naomi:So this is what I think is because I know we're probably going to get to it some of the issue, because I agree with you 100%. I think some of the issue and what happened with Mav is that everybody was given, for the most part, all the information and everybody had to make decisions based on that information, and everybody doesn't always make the right choices, or we don't always agree, we don't always like it, and Absolutely.
Norman:The reality is people push back. This is why I keep it a book. People push back on JJ and Tony for exposing the truth about the business of music. They armed y'all with information nobody wanted y'all to have.
Naomi:Right.
Norman:And once they gave y'all the information the devil does what the devil does and he tried to make he made the truth a lie. Y'all became the two most untrustworthy business people in worship music, when y'all were probably the two most trustworthy business people in christian. You want me to tell you why. Because they didn't know no better either. They didn't have the real motive. They was just like bro, these people took advantage of me. Somebody had taken advantage of them. They didn't want y'all to be taken advantage of. So when y'all was going to talk to people about it like who's telling them that? Like why they giving them a warranty and they not signing them the deals, why they giving them a piece of the song that they ain't paying for, they not going to lock them up in long contracts. But what's wrong with y'all? Because what was happening?
Norman:No that's what people was asking them. What was happening? Now I'm not going to say everything was right, but I'm not going to say everything was right now.
Naomi:Yeah, I'm not going to say that.
Norman:But I am going to say this Where's my camera? What I am going to say is this is that the pushback y'all got from the worship community was bro man, you talking about organizations making tens of millions of dollars, organizations that was out here in the space at the time, millions of dollars Organizations that was out here in the space at the time. And I mean, unless you was a big writer, unless you was Tomlin, unless you was, you know, one of these guys, it wasn't matriculating down the space. They were preaching this. You know, you're doing it unto God. You're coming and doing features for free. Ain't no artist fee, ain't no artist royalty. Everything gratis. Gratis means free, like everything you're doing for free. You're doing it for. You're doing this for God. Somebody get paid, that's evil I know that's my whole point.
Norman:The whole point is that when y'all are doing the whole point behind not wanting worship artists to focus on the business side of so, they can be taken advantage of, and any business person that says otherwise is a lie.
JJ:Or it's a way for people to hyper spiritualize, like what they are internally uncomfortable with or they haven't mastered themselves, or they just feel weird about. Or they just feel weird about right, because I remember there being like a lot of people that we felt like were really accepting of us, that kind of I mean you could say mother, father, whatever there's some key people that I remember and I remember like when things started to really take off, it was kind of like they did like an about face and just made it really weird, like you guys are. It's just different and you guys are doing this for different motivations. Now, and I was just like no, we're not, we're the same and we're the same people doing the same stuff, right, and I think I think a lot of that is some of that from my perspective was really like oh, that's just your uncomfortability with you, with your ability to like put your arms around the business of what you've been doing.
Norman:Man, man Right.
JJ:Or even the jealousy of seeing someone else be successful right.
Naomi:I think two things can be true at the same time Sure.
JJ:Yeah absolutely.
Naomi:I think that there can be jealousy, I think that there can be discomfort around money and I think that sometimes, when you get money, you do move a little differently.
JJ:Sure yeah.
Naomi:And not just money. I think as you get more information and that's what I saw with you and Tony at the time as you got more information, you began to to me move a little differently, and I think that it wasn't always sneaky, but I don't think it was always disclosed. It wasn't always sneaky, but I don't think it was always disclosed. So I think, as time went on, things began to unfold and we began to see I'm talking about internally, like we began to see more, and I think that's why we stuck around and was like okay, because we realized okay, as y'all got more information, we got more information.
Naomi:But I think that when we started to tap into what is it called the market shares is that am I saying the right thing? Like, whereas our we started to tap into what is it called the market shares? Is that, am I saying the right thing? Market shares, like, whereas our we started to take up more of the yes, then the people that were losing the market shares were very upset and did not want us to win. So I think I think two things can exist. I don't think that we were completely like. I don't think that we were completely not, and when I say we, I mean like Maverick and the people involved in it. I don't think everybody was like yay, I'm completely after God, because I feel like when we first started we all seemed very like this is about Jesus and this is about family and this is about relationship.
JJ:And as people started to make money, things did change and people started to access.
Naomi:But don't you feel like that's normal or natural, like, yes, but I don't think, just because it's normal or natural, that it's that it shouldn't be counted or identified and I think sometimes what we don't, what we don't a lot for, is people's change margin, like the change windows.
Naomi:I think when you're in a transition, you got to give people grace, and those people that I think were like mothers and fathers or whatever, did not necessarily allow a lot for a certain grace, but I don't even think I think they needed grace too, because they really had no grid for what we were embarking upon. I think what we got to do, a lot of them didn't even get to do so I don't think any of them actually got to do so. They didn't even know how to steward or counsel or you know what I mean. So, like, I feel like grace has to be extended all around. I'm not trying to, I'm that person that's like I'm going to see all the sides right, but I think we needed grace and I think they needed grace. Um, do I think that they? Now you know I have a.
Naomi:I have an issue with people who love to like, toe the bible and give you scripture for why you wrong, but can't see that they're doing a very wrong thing that's in scripture too, and won't admit that. So I feel like everybody has to be held accountable. But what I can say is, as Maverick, I think we have tried to extend a layer and level of grace that I don't think has ever been extended to us. I think there's always been an open door. I think there's always been a hey, let's talk about it. If you have a problem, let's talk about it. I remember certain people talking crazy about certain people in our group at the time and I called that person and said hey, you're talking about this. You're spreading rumors and gossip about these people. If you have an issue, come talk to us. Like, instead of speaking to us, you're spreading it around. And some of it is not true. I can't say all of it isn't true, but some of it is not true.
Naomi:Like, don't do that. My thing is, when I read my Bible and my scriptures, because I'm going to back this up with scripture- because this is like gossip and so in discord among brethren, and that is some of the stuff that God hates. It's detestable to him, sure, and so I don't see smoking weed in it, and I'm not saying that.
JJ:I'm not. You know what I mean.
Naomi:I'm not advocating that, I am not, but when I look at it I'm like how we relate to one another God actually cares about, and when you spread rumors about people because that stuff it lasts, and I'm thinking about oh, now I'm getting emotional. I'm thinking about these young people. They were there, they were kids, and you're spreading garbage about them, about weak moments in their lives or whatever, and some of it wasn't even true, so like but you're the mother, you're the father. Stuff like that blows my mind.
Norman:I mean because it wasn't rooted in seeing y'all do well. It was rooted in loss of market share. It was rooted in loss of control. It was rooted in success that they were a part of. It was rooted in the of control. It was rooted in success that they weren't a part of. It was rooted in the need to feel honored and not honoring. That's a bit, but then I go back.
Naomi:sorry, but then I go back to what your mother said to you when you got pulled over and busted in half so why were you speeding? And so this is what I would say to the other side of it Y'all, stop doing stupid stuff. Stop doing that, because you're actually putting yourself in a position to now let your good be evil spoken of. And this has always been one of my issues with our side of things, and I'm always going to be honest like y'all, chill like we had we had a, we had a mega spotlight put on us due to the success.
JJ:And there was a responsibility that we needed to come around with that, stop it. Some of us did come around that with responsibility. Some of us struggled in those moments.
Norman:I mean I think it goes back to what I said from John Is that you know this space wasn't ready. Look, man, you can't name. You could probably name a worship artist that came from a single parent household before Maverick City, not a major one, and I'm not saying that to generalize. No, what I'm saying, I'm teaching you know what I'm saying. We can name them. You seen their parents. I'm saying that to say the issues, the traumas, these, and I'm not saying this to excuse them. I'm adding color and context because I think what this space has lost and when they do the paint the whole, oh, christianity is bigger than your race. Absolutely, I'm a Christian before I'm anything. However, when I express my christianity through life, I express it through the prism by which the life I have lived.
Naomi:I can't do it through anything else but you know I'm a word person, right? Yeah, so I don't. Actually, I think what you're saying is that you desire to place christianity above your blackness. I do, but I think you were black before you were a christian and and I don't think god has a problem with I think he knew me. You know what I'm saying? Place Christianity above your blackness, I do, but I think you were black before you were a Christian.
Norman:I see, and I don't think God has a problem with I think he knew me. You know what I'm saying. Before I was in my mother's.
Naomi:No, he knew you but you didn't know him. Okay, and so your first experience was being black and being in the South and being a man and all of that stuff. And I think the beautiful thing about Christianity is that it works in every culture, because the truth of God has to permeate into where you are, and I believe God can save us out of all of that. That does not mean our culture is king. It is not king. I think we always have to subject that stuff under Jesus.
Naomi:And I think that's what you're saying, but I think that sometimes we do forget that before we were saved we were whatever we were. But I think that sometimes we do forget that before we were saved we were whatever we were and now Christ has to transform us and that's a process. That sanctification process is a real process and it's not pretty, it's not cute. I wish it was instant. There are some people that come off the street and get sober in a second and never touch nothing again and that's beautiful and I think that that's good, but I don't believe that that's every situation. I think that that's good, but I don't believe that that's every situation. I don't think that's everything.
Naomi:We see that in the Bible we see these people walk with Jesus. Peter walked with Jesus and then when Jesus died he was like I'm going back to fish and he had to be restored. And there's even moments, even after Jesus ascends, and he sees Jesus go up. He sees the one that was resurrected from that. He watched him die, watched him come back with holes in his hand, then saw him ascend and then he's still not treating Gentiles the way that he's treating Jews. People have issues and they have to keep working and God is like it's okay.
Norman:But feed my sheep.
Naomi:Do this stuff anyway, and so that's the thing I want to get, and I don't think that we should. We should Excuse nonsense. No, we have to hold each other accountable, but there's, like there has to be, this. It's this weird tension that we have to continue to grapple with and have to continue to fight through.
Norman:And that's what, oh, you're preaching. So it's like, it's like. It's like when I see some of the comments about collaborations that we do and working with people and they're speaking to their sin nature and this sin nature and that sin nature, and I literally had somebody in the conversation I said Judas walked with Jesus every day. Man, Judas walked with Jesus every day. He had the perfect example. And because their comment to us always is that when Jesus sat with people, their lives changed immediately, that's not true though.
Naomi:Oh no, oh but.
Norman:He clearly encountered the rich young ruler. He said hey, man.
Naomi:He said hey man. He said hey man.
Norman:This money ain't much to lose.
Naomi:But then some would argue that the rich young ruler didn't inherit the kingdom. No, he did not. But we also don't know that After he raised you we could have changed that.
Norman:But this is the key that didn't stop Jesus from giving him the opportunity.
JJ:That's true.
Norman:Jesus didn't say no, knew he was going to turn the rock away. That's what we. Jesus knew Jesus was going to turn on him. Jesus knew Peter was going to deny him. All of this like and a lot of people in these commentators are Peter they want to cut an ear off.
Norman:They want to cut the other ear off instead of being a lamb he may not call they want to cut their ear off instead of being a lamb he may not call. They want us to do evangelism the way they were called to do, evangelism. Where you see Peter and Paul, it's in the Bible for a reason, because Peter had a way and you know, get the vision where uh, uh.
JJ:The ram comes out of the sheet. And you know what I'm saying. He talked about it was uh uh, the ram comes out of the sheet and uh tells her to clean it.
Norman:He talked about it was uh. He talked about eating these unclean things.
Naomi:Yeah, I know, and then he said don't call nothing unclean.
Norman:That I've called clean and that's because religious, where his religion taught him this one clean I've been to clean, that was clean. You can't.
Naomi:So let me ask you a question, Because if I'm honest, as you said, we get to it. You can speak. I think I'm uncomfortable with some of these collabs, but I'm telling you I'm uncomfortable because I'm a church girl and I never want my good to be evil spoken of. That's something that I grew up with. Do not let your good be evil spoken of. I don't know, I don't know if it's always good and I'm not. And I literally am saying I don't know because I don't know.
Naomi:But I do know what you're saying right now and I do know I probably lean more toward Peter's side. You know what I mean and that's why, that's why I'm hard on it, because I know that that's the stuff that I have to work out in myself. I do not always know if it's profitable and I think that's the thing, that's the thing that I'd wrap it with. But y'all know I would tell y'all anything. If I felt like something was like awful wrong, I would say something. And the reason I haven't said anything about it is because, again, I don't know.
Naomi:And when I hear stuff like that I go because what's I guess? I'm going, what's more important Because I think, is your platform, the space for evangelism to the people that you're using the platform with. Is that the right space? Does it matter? Is it interchangeable, Because you're also influencing other people? So if there's like millions of people that get to hear this thing and might be confused by that, is that good or is it more important that you do the one? I mean and these are real questions that I have these are the real questions we ask ourselves.
Norman:You know I mean the real question. I mean when M and I get to, I literally boom, we got to advertise it, bro. Pray, boom, that's it. Pray. If you get peace, let me know. If I don't have peace, I'm going to let you know, but we don't move without it. That's exactly how our conversation went Point blank, period. I think what has given me solace in the process, in conversations, has been two things, which is 99 versus the 1. People that know him, that have the good news, that have met him, given their life. I can't be more concerned with keeping them well than I am going to reach the sick. If I don't work and I said so, let me ask you okay, no, no, I want to ask you a question so you feel like like doing a gloria gloria feature is more about the unsaved yeah, for sure than the saved.
Naomi:So for you it's like hey, at this point this is evangelical.
Norman:This is not about the church, this is about the world because when people say it would be okay if it's on lab's album and and not hers, well, why would I put a song with glorilla that opens by saying, yeah, my audience that listens to christian music. Now they searching. Who is glorilla? You know what I'm saying like? Who is thisilla? You know what I'm saying Like? Who is this that made up the side Versus versus people, the people that are listening to the Gorilla album, 90% of them never putting on a Christian song, probably their whole life.
Naomi:I get that logic.
Norman:They not. They not going to find Never City, they not going to find Perk Franklin Marble, south Elevation, none of that. And then they come, they stumble through, they get to this point, no question. She talking about God, she talking about how she a sinner, how she need to repent. She talking about the beauty in that Kirk giving a look, or Gavin is mauling Kiara throwing like who are these people? What they talking about? And then you know what happened when you're struggling.
Norman:I going through TikTok, a girl in her bathroom, she crying. She said I put on this girl's album and you know what? I'm in the bathroom crying. Well, I thought I was twerking, so I started scoping on this song. So and oh, now look, she's looking up the artist. She had a playlist to that download she go through. That was the first video she go through. She now listen to worship music. It's like, bro, if we did that collab just for that girl, it was work and it was just for her. And then the question I'm going to stop, I'm going to let you go. The question is well, how do you know what happened next? I trust God with her. I didn't save her to begin with. We ain't saving her. God is the one, the Holy Spirit is the one that does that work. We aren't like people act like God gives that inquiry.
Norman:Yeah, people act like we do the saving. We don't do the saving, we provide the seed, the opportunity.
JJ:He does the rest. Yeah, I was going to say, even with the collab we did with Connor, I mean, I think that was that's also a perfect example of one of the first times we ever had. We were supposed to get on the phone, talk about creative, talk about a song, and he goes. He's like man, I just started, I just started reading the Bible. Like where should I start? Right, like I'm new to this faith thing, I'm not sure where I'm at, and we kind of have this moment of like you're coming into this thing, you don't really know where you are. I'm going to be there with you. We're going to release this song, we're going to find out a way to do a song together that honors where you are, but also we're going to journey with you as you come into the faith.
JJ:I think there are these moments where I feel called to it's purpose. Right, we talk about this all the time, whether it's us performing at the Grammys or doing something with the Glorilla. These things are connected to purpose. They're not like random oh man, like let's chase the cloud, let's see if we can get a bump. No, no, no, no, no. This is to preach the gospel so that people can come to know Jesus. So we were texting about last night during the show you did, the salvation call, which, by the way, we can never do a show without. Without doing a show, I mean just absolutely beautiful, but it's like the fact that people literally put their hands up and said I am following this Jesus and they will spend eternity with him. There was nothing more important to happen that night, and I think that's the heart, that's the mission, that's the purpose, that's connected to a lot of decisions that we've made when it comes to the collapse.
Norman:So I think why this podcast is so important and why I mean it's a beautiful thing to have you on, is because this narrative or this story or this oh, they did that so they could get more famous. All of this, okay, all of our content, is about Christ. All of our content that we make is about Jesus. It's about the gospel, it's about goodness, it's about how he, it's about worship to him. We don't make. Trust me, if this was about the money, we would have walked in on this first.
Norman:Like we're not like, we're not ignorant. Right this is. We understand that our core audience is going to find issue with this, but we can't disobey christ and put out a preservation of something in the world like it's like. That's what I said. It's like this misunderstand a platform is something he gave us. Yeah, if he give us a yes on this and the platform go away, so be it.
JJ:I mean we say no to lots of things too right, of course it has to meet a certain criteria, absolutely. And I think these decisions, what you said earlier connected to. They're weighty, they're connected to purpose, but they're also prayerful decisions that I think we make with the understanding and desire that man. We just want people to come to know Jesus and that's it. That's literally it.
Naomi:So yeah, I think that the church is going to have to be okay that everything is not for them you know, and but I do think it's okay for people to wonder or be concerned about hey, does this, what is it like? Uh, muddy our witness, or whatever. I think that that's important and I believe that they should keep saying what they want to say about, because, god forbid, we ever did, because paul said this right, like if I come preaching to you, another gospel, don't believe me. You know, I think there's a, there's something to saying hey, if we start doing stuff, that's us say something because hopefully we can, of course, correct. If we start doing stuff, let's say something because hopefully we can, of course, correct if we need to Pray for us, I'm never right 100%.
Norman:I always say I think what y'all are seeing here in the beauty of Maverick City is that we don't all agree. And so when, like when, somebody walked me down the ground and said they're excited to see Lil' Ma's ex, I wasn't excited to see Lil' Ma's ex. Maverick City was not excited to see Lil Nas X Girl, maverick City excited to see Lil Nas X? No, dante Brown was excited to see Lil.
Norman:Nas X. Why did everybody have to know? You know what I'm saying. You know what I'm saying, Somebody you know what I'm saying.
Naomi:It's a little twerky, but wasn't that the year that he slid down the? Yeah, he was like playing Satan.
Norman:He had a lot going on, but I think that, like, and I talk about this, I talk about this, I think that we also there was never room given to Maverick City for this, because it doesn't exist, because that was the first collective that wasn't a church. So there, this because it doesn't exist is that it was the first collective that wasn't a church so there wasn't a unified theological stance amongst members.
Norman:Right, we it's all gonna do all types of denomination churches. They do it under all type of teaching, right, like, and when you talk about an elevation, they're centered under the itch of the pastor should be converted. So you know what they do. They all gave him the same preaching. They're community together. They live in the same city. They're families. They got similar backgrounds. They're in similar socioeconomic situations.
Naomi:And they answer to something.
Norman:They answer to something they speak based on For sure. Bethel same thing, Sure.
JJ:Pastor, for sure that's the same thing. Sure Pastor, hill song.
Norman:Pastor, you know what I'm saying. Food worship pastor. One house pastor Upper room. Upper room pastor, maverick City. It disrupts that paradigm Because they always Arthur who was it At the time? Chandler was with Pastor Robert McGee, randy's at Seaco, chandler was with Pastor Robert McGee, Brandon's at Seacoast, dante was with Eddie J. You know what I'm saying. Like it's, you don't know the place. You know I just own different types.
Naomi:I don't reach back to Eddie J. I don't know what that's all for.
JJ:I don't know what that's all for. I don't know what?
Norman:No, no, but I'm saying that to say it's not you know that's you got different standards there.
Naomi:You got different leads Right, we were answering to us.
JJ:More than that we were. But the like, the motivation to be there is, it's not like, well, I'm going to disappoint my pastor if I decide I don't want to do this anymore and I'm going to have to let 10 people. It wasn't that. It was just like, hey, we all collectively want to do this and we'll keep doing it. You know what I mean. And so, yeah, I think that also makes it hard, plus what we were talking about earlier outside forces. Watch the money happens, Watch the touring comes.
Norman:Things start to get, you know, you start to feel it, man, what happened was and we talked about this with Dante, unfortunate thing, and we talked about this with Darcy, unfortunately and I got to see a lot of what happened with y'all from the outside and then the inside. The guy was unique. The unique is perspective because from day from volume three, part one on, nobody wanted y'all to succeed on either side. Like and people ain't gonna say it now, but I mean when I was allowed in the external conversations before I became affiliated, I could hear, I heard who's fucking crazy about us, norman oh I wasn't, I actually got close
JJ:to them from defending y'all I said I ain't got a dog in this fight.
Norman:But y'all talking about this, some random white people, I said the people that aren't black. But I think both of them you know what I'm saying. Like I said, uh-uh, JJ is white, I said JJ is the biggest black guy. You know what I'm saying. But they were trying to make y'all out to be this thing that it wasn't and a part of it was. They just couldn't control it. Sure, no one had control over it.
Naomi:Literally not even. Yeah, not even them.
Norman:And so what they did was they played on it. I'm going to be honest. They played on the insecurity of the lack of defilement that was given. There was no structure by design.
Norman:They didn't want to control y'all. And the react. You know what happened. Just like when you put the Israelites and took them out of slavery and they got in the wilderness they begged for slavery again. Because when you give somebody freedom that they don't understand, that they are being given, it's like this is too good to be true. Like why would somebody be doing this? That they don't understand, that they are being given, it's like this is too good to be true. Like why would somebody be doing this? And that's what people say oh, they ain't getting y'all, no deal.
JJ:They must be doing something.
Norman:shady you ain't got no problem. I don't know about that. You ain't don't know. That's what they were doing. I remember it vividly. I seen the deal Dante was about to sign and I said bro, why are you signing this? Oh, bro, I just think it's the best thing. Why did I have nothing to?
Naomi:do with you.
Norman:I said, bro, just stay like it is, Like you're getting all the benefits without having to commit.
JJ:Yeah, that's like you.
Naomi:Sorry, I was going to say I think that I'll speak from the artist's side. I think it's sorry, I was going to say I think that I'll speak from the artist's side. I think it's like yeah, that's working now until they don't want me anymore, exactly. And then so if I don't lock in something that is permanent, then at any point I could be put out, which I think is the other thing that so, like, while everybody on every side didn't want us to win, I think internally there was I'm realizing now an internal competition, not for a place of jealousy or like comparison, because I don't really think we fully had that.
Naomi:I think some people had that, but most of us, I don't think, had the like I want you to fail. But it wasn't I want you to fail, it was just I want to win. And so I think it was like it's hard if you feel like somebody else is going to get picked for the song over me, I don't know how to, how to deal with that and I don't know if I should latch on to somebody that's maybe saying that I'm valuable and I'm special, I'm important, when next album I might not be valuable and have and and and those.
JJ:Those kinds of realities are like, they're a little tough to get through, but you can get through them no, they're very tough to get, but but what I think?
Naomi:well, yeah, I mean look at, look at, look at this, look at, look at it yeah, for sure.
JJ:What I was gonna say is I think what upped the ante, though, on that stuff was when things got a lot more pro. Yeah, when we had to do a tour and it was like, hey, these people are making x, these people are making x, and it's like why, I'm not why?
Naomi:am I not making this? That's your fault, norman jumpy wait.
JJ:Why is it? Why is that wait what?
Naomi:no, because I think, can I tell you the truth? I feel like and maybe I'm wrong, I have to be real. I think when people started getting different pay, that's when it was like okay, you're not valuing what I bring, even if it's not the most major part.
Norman:So you feel like we should have paid everybody.
Naomi:Low key yes.
Norman:And.
Naomi:I'm saying that, I think, as somebody who made more than some other people.
JJ:Do you feel okay? That's actually a really interesting perspective.
Naomi:other people do you feel okay, that's, that's an interesting, that's actually a really interesting perspective?
JJ:yes, because it's based on so I know you listen it's based on how it was started and like oh, this is just like everybody who is but but you know, and this is the thing that I, this is the thing that I think we didn't do a great job of it's like how we started wasn't where we were.
JJ:Yeah, like we were evolving and fast, right, right. When you have to make a decision that was one of the things we talked about with Dante it's like, when you have to make a decision, hey guys, we got four spots on a billboard in New York City and you can only have two people from Maverick City. It's like, okay, that's, somebody's not going to get their picture on this billboard that we're going to post and it's going to be a big moment, right. When we have, hey guys, we got six bunks and there's 80 of them. Two of y'all can't make it. Hey guys, we got 10 slots for songs and we know that there's 13 songs in the banks. Three songs are going to have to get cut and we can't not do Jyra Promises In the Room.
Norman:You know what I mean. I think the question that I would ask Naomi, frankly, honestly, is this Even if you paid everybody the risk of it I mean, just think of it from this way, young Chandler, god say it, brandon Y'all wouldn't be the ones that would happen to be agreed to the sacrifice?
Naomi:Yes.
Norman:And the reality is to any rational business person. It is this If I'm going to, what am I going to appease?
Naomi:I know, because you risk almost losing.
Norman:It's just certainly Can.
Naomi:I say something, though I think we should have valued Aaron the same way y'all valued us for, because I don't think y'all realized how much of a of an integral part he played in Maverick City. I think that's the biggest mistake that y'all made, if I'm honest.
JJ:Congratulations here we are.
Naomi:I think that's actually the biggest mistake y'all made, because and I'm saying that more than I I love you guys more than Joel, more than anybody. Aaron his point like a part of why we were able to do what we did is because we were collaborating with him and what we were doing together musically, that made sense and I feel like y'all didn't value him.
JJ:That's actually not true.
Naomi:No at where he needed to be valued I think it's so good.
JJ:I'm going to be very honest with you. We had a lot of conversations with Aaron and he will attest to this. This is fact. There were things that we said to him. It was like hey man, you, hey man, you feel x right? Hey, I want to be a producer, I feel like I need to get this whatever, blah, blah, cool, we're down with that. Here's how we do it. This is our process. We are involved at this point, at this point, at this point, at this point, you need to be involved at the same level and you need to take this seriously. And I'm not saying they didn't take things seriously, but there were things that, like, we agreed to that, like hey, I'll be involved in this, and he and he wasn't right.
Naomi:No, I get that. I think that's even later. Ok, so I think I think even before that, even before that, I think if we honored Aaron's desire to write, because he desired to be in a lot of writing rooms and he was made to come to band rehearsals, I think that all of that's cool, but that was where I think a lot of this started for Aaron.
JJ:I don't want to speak for anybody else, but I think I mean that's a lot of what Dante said too Like how the way he was moving and like like he was fighting for his boy, you know what I mean.
Naomi:Like when he was not showing up to stuff and he was giving people— but I think he should have had a conversation. Of course, I think where you show up and stand up for somebody is in conversation, which I remember having multiple conversations with Tony and fighting for Aaron in actual conversation, not in being delinquent in your actual work.
Norman:Sure.
Naomi:So I don't know if that was an effective tactic.
Norman:I think the tough juxtaposition between Aaron and the rest of y'all, when you're talking about value, I think Aaron was I'm not notifying, I was Aaron was valued financially appropriately, I think, in. I think what you're talking about isn't as an expression or how we actually internally felt and how it was made manifest to him, because Aaron, aaron was doing this dance of wanting to be an artist, wanting to be a producer at the same time. Many times you see the excitement of JJ, tony and myself when we win something. It's the work that happened leading up to a song coming to life. Absolutely Is hard. It's as I'm not going to say I ain't never got no stage to sing in front of nobody, so I'm not going to say it's the same parallel, but it's meaningful and I think that his view along the other, the team is that he was a producer but I think so.
Naomi:I, yes, I don't. I think production, uh, I think music producing. He was a part of that and I think he should have been honored as that, even if he didn't because we don't all have to do the same thing in order to be honored as a part of what happened. I think you could say, oh, we can just grab any old person and do it.
Norman:I think what I'm saying to you is this it would be like this. It would be like you telling us you know what I'm going to write on every Maverick song, because I done made this brand big, whether I'm in the writing room or not. That's what I'm saying to you.
Naomi:I don't think that's the equivalent.
Norman:It is when you are saying you want to be a producer and you don't show up to do producing work.
Naomi:I get that. So, like this is what I said, Because I played.
Norman:I vibed with Naomi at the live recording. But you don't cut the song down, you don't come show up to the mix sessions, you don't review the song, you don't do nothing but play the piano. No, no, I get that.
Naomi:I get this. This is what I'm saying. I don't think that that moment he could have fought for that. I think Aaron made those decisions because he was told stuff in the beginning and the word was not kept, and I think that was retaliatory.
JJ:I never told Aaron a thing that I didn't keep my word with, and I want to be very clear about that.
Naomi:I don't know that. That's true, JJ Okay, but I'm just saying I remember things and honestly, I've seen text messages and maybe most of it was Tony, but I've seen stuff where it's like, and then when it came down to it it was like oh man, next time, like, oh, like, so sorry, we'll get it next time, and I think that's the stuff and I think he made a poor decision.
Naomi:I think he should have. Just still, if you want to produce, show up to the stuff. I've seen Aaron not show up to certain things that I feel like he should have showed up to. I think he was hurt and that's what we were saying. I don't think a lot of this stuff is about money. I think people's feelings were hurt and when your feelings get hurt.
Norman:He mentioned aaron on. I thank god. He told us about that dante did. He told us about and felt like he should live. I thank god from the jump he did, he didn't need it no, it was on tour.
Naomi:Yeah, like why didn't he?
Norman:he just sang when dante said that he called him up to sing, that something happened when we cut a song.
Naomi:No, no, no, that's about Be Praised.
Norman:Okay, be Praised. I mean, this is hard, this is it. This is it.
JJ:This is what I mean. If we're being really honest, these are the things Lake struggled with and felt at times in a moment I mean a lot of artists struggle with this it's like I'm showing up. This is what I love about Maverick City it is the best of the best coming together, and when you come together and you collaborate, everybody has to lay a strength down in favor of the people that they're leading alongside, that is that is a hard thing to do.
JJ:When you're watching someone lead a moment. You're going I could lead that better. I wish I was singing that I could. I could make that moment. You have to lay that down and say you know what? I'm giving this to them. I'm gonna let to let them lead this I'm going to honor Like there were moments last night, songs that I know you wrote. You didn't lead them and other people led them and it's like you carry that so beautifully and I think that is what. When you pull the through line, that was what we really struggled with as things got big.
Norman:It's not even it's exactly what you're saying. This thing has got big. It's not even the thing. It's exactly what you're saying. The thing about it is no, maverick is a victim of its own success. Maverick is a victim of its own success. There was, without this thing being, a church where everyone answered to someone and where the decisions were made by a pastor, so I'm already in a positive honor from John.
JJ:You're just happy to be there.
Norman:The reason why there's no success for all-star teams in the NBA is because if you put like Jason Tatum on the Dream Team, the boy had just won the championship.
Naomi:The championship.
Norman:He had just won.
JJ:But guess what?
Norman:You're not starting over LeBron you don't even start on the dream, you don't even start in the Olympics, you just wipe all of these dudes.
Naomi:But that's just ego and pride. So to me it's like it's for the. I'm'm about to tell you what it is. You think it's.
Norman:Florida because Tasha.
Naomi:Cobb's Leonard, is on this tour and there's no way on God's green earth that I'm going to assert myself over her, because I honor her, I honor what she's done in this industry and in this space and I'm never like now. I'm not saying she's going to sing Promises but but also, but also, this is my tour, right? This is, this is maverick. Y'all know we talked about that. I'm not like, I'm not well, you didn't collaborate.
Naomi:But at the same time, like you said, like tasha's singing more than able with chandler. And remember when we did that at the mavway, me and me and chandler and tasha was supposed to lead and I said, let I pull out like y'all got it, because, because I don't need to do everything and I can defer and I can think about the greater good of the song.
Norman:It's clear that you can do it. That's why you're the one that's still here.
JJ:The reality she has the ethos.
Norman:Yeah, it's not the ethos they only has a pastor. That requires her to prove that requires her to be in the word that requires her to go through process that requires her to die to herself daily. That requires she has discipleship, she has accountability, she doesn't have people that are in her ear echo chambering the worst parts of her. That's so good.
Naomi:That's so good she's wondering why my past is on tour with me. So I say right. Are y'all okay.
Norman:That's good. When you go back, when you get mad that you didn't get to lead a song and you go back and the very words said to you is you would have did that better, you don't need to.
JJ:Yeah, that's good, that's good, you can do it like this Instead of you can do it yourself.
Norman:Now the reality is and I'm going to say it. I'm going to say it, but look right at this camera. The reality is, all of the original members of Maverick City would have been better off today if they were still in Maverick City Together, doing this together. There will be better people, there will be better partners, there will be better husbands, there will be better wives, because what this requires you to do is to die. Lay down your preference, pick up someone else's preference. Pick up someone else's need. Be a great partner. Be a great person.
Norman:Do you think I, the business person, decided one day I'm gonna be the most successful Christian executive in the world? I don't even know. I'm tone deaf. God decided this for me. God decided hey, bro, you gonna tell them the genre of music that I'm gonna use your expertise to revitalize. There was no gossip. Worship Ain't no reason. God said I'm gonna use this tone that I do for no reason. You know what I'm saying. And they laid him out in the club, threw out his phrase and stuff, and you know what? Yep, he gonna be the one. He gonna be, the one she gonna be. And what happened to Lux Once, once you gonna think of one, she gonna think Eddie, what happened to Lux Once? Barbara got stuff?
Norman:Everybody now, like anybody, when you get rich, all the prayers, all the prayers you have, all of that, you start to lose that humility, you start to lose that meekness, you start to lose that desperation and desire to be right with him and then because, alright, it's about me now, I don't need this, I'm here now. In the beginning, everyone needed it. When it became a choice, you got to see the actual integrity of people and that's the reality. If it's family, let me tell you something my brother was my first cloud. We still have parties. I still have turdics Because we get in arguments. We still family. Knock down, drive down. We still family. All right, I ain't coming to your son's birthday. My kid's going to be there, because we still family. Family does not separate or it doesn't stop being family, because things don't go my way.
Naomi:I think you don't think we're still family.
Norman:No, I do not.
Naomi:Dang. No, I'm still family with everybody.
Norman:You are not even still.
Naomi:I am, they might not be with me but I'm with them.
Norman:All right cool, we feel the same way, we ain't doing nothing to stop nobody from sharing, but no, I do not think we're still family. I think that what we are now is, I think, we divorced. I think that's what a lot of the relationships are. I think that there was a covenant relationship that God ordained that has been permanent no, I wouldn't say permanent because we would reconcile with anybody but that has been fractured due to self.
Naomi:That's very sad.
Norman:It's really sad.
Naomi:Well, I knew a lot of what people were dealing with is spiritual, and I guess that's why I'm still family with everybody, despite what's going on and despite how people feel. But I think I wish, I think I wish that we took more time. I think this is you know, y'all keep saying like we were an overgrown toddler, we were building a plane, like while we're flying it, and I think stuff kept being said like that. I think we keep trying to excuse our actions by just how hard it was. We all could have shown more grace to one another. And I think one thing I do respect and why I'm still around, I think is that I do respect that y'all are able when I say y'all, I mean y'all too are willing to get on the phone and have conversations with people. I wish that we were that way from the beginning, like just open and amenable and willing to listen. The other thing is that some people aren't willing to talk, so sometimes you don't hear about stuff until after it's over.
Naomi:But I low-key, I think this is probably the most traumatic thing I've ever been a part of in my whole entire life. And seriously no, I'm serious I've birthed three children. I have like this is like the hardest thing, cause, I think, when you're dealing with people and relationships and people that you've actually knit yourself together with, and then you see number one, the enemy, take people out, but then what feels like what? We should have, I think, been more mature to just be patient. I don't know that we always were, I think, if I'm, if I'm honest, though, when I look back, I think there were many times that we were very patient and people just decided to to go like I'm not, I'm not doing it, it's it just it sucks uh, it's really I, I'm really what you're saying is really touching me and I'm it's ministering to me.
JJ:I I've been thinking about because, because, because what you're really saying is like I remember there being moments where I would hear like, oh, this person said this to such and such and they feel a certain kind of way right. And then I'd meet with that person like hey, what's going on? And eye to eye, and they couldn't say what I knew they had said to somebody else about how they were feeling. And it's like, and I look back on those moments and I'm like man, I should have taken that as a sign of like man.
JJ:This thing is growing really fast and people just they're they're feeling uncomfortable in how they like see themselves in relation to it. They don't know, like the right things to ask. They don't really like this disorienting, right, I mean, I think, but but I mean that's the reality of what I think, a lot of things, what we went through, which, which was difficult, it's like we're trying to lead, we have conversations. We feel like we get told one thing, it's another thing. It's like it's this weird like, but you're right, it's like patience, but, but it's also really difficult because it's like how patient can you be, as you're trying to like, lock things in and build things and make decisions that are affecting everything that we're doing right?
Norman:for y'all just to get y'all just do y'all a solid man. Y'all were extremely patient, y'all extremely forgiving. Y'all were extremely um, umenal, yeah, willing to check. I I would say when I saw what, because I'm totally different. I wasn't like that. I wasn't like that. And so one thing they changed and all of y'all changed. I remember Naomi told me she said you got to be willing for any of them to come back. I said Naomi, you crazy, ain't none of them jokes? And I remember the day I called her and said you know what? Anybody can come back, because the reality of the heart posture that y'all always held amongst each other was that the door was always open and y'all kept that amongst each other.
Norman:A lot of what transpired was just that people's original motives just came true and everyone didn't have the same mood. There ain't no blame. It's cool Because it was a collective. To some people it was a business decision. To some people it was family. To some people it was something they were doing for God. To some people it was a stepping stone for their career because they had never been noticed. They've been trying to do this for all and there was nothing. For some of them. There was nothing y'all could have done different. They was going to do what they came to do, and I think we see that out. I think it's pretty honest. I just do believe. Only only we got to participate with my best friend. You don't want either of us.
Norman:I didn't say this, no, not at all you don't want you to bring attention to it. I did something that stuck my head on.
Naomi:I'm sorry. I'm sorry I didn't bring your attention to it.
Norman:I mean it's sad, bro, like when you really like, you know what I'm saying. Like I mean it's, bro, when you said it's the most traumatic thing that ever happened, effort that has been poured into everything. Like man, I'm telling you I'll be laying in my bed sometime reading these comments. I'm like how could this be how someone perceived our heart, how could this be the way you perceive our heart to be? It don't even make sense. It's like I think there's moments when she says say what you're saying, because there's moments. It's like I think there's moments, and what she said, say what you're saying, because there's moments. It's like, bro, I'm like I'm going to school. I'm like man, are we Like we did a demonic thing with Will Smith on the BET? How, how, how, how, how, how you know, and then, beyond that, you get to the nitty gritty about relationship with other artists. It's like, again, man, you'll hear these things. And it's like man, it was never none of that. But we don't.
Norman:You don't get the opportunity. You know what I'm saying. My wife taught me this. You don't get the chance to tell someone how what you did impacts them you. You don't get the chance to tell someone how what you did impacts them. You can't decide that, how what you did impacts them. Your intent don't change the impact and you have to be willing to be accountable for the impact of your actions, regardless of what you intend. And that's the thing I think everything is struggling with. I mean, you know, as I look back, what does that mean? What does it look?
Norman:like Willing to be accountable, you have to be willing to be accountable for your impact. Oh, I mean that means, if Aaron says we lied and we did him wrong, that we go back and reconcile it, whether that's the truth or not. And it means that it's like you can't be so self-righteous that, well, I ain't do that, it don't matter, it don't matter if you did it or not. The good, the christ-like thing christ ain't seeing he still died on the cross. Yeah, you should have said so. It's that. It's literally being like jesus said, even though I didn't do that, his life, his destiny, the way he was called to do, requires me to apologize for something I didn't do. It requires me to compensate someone for something I never said I was going to compensate. It requires me to give credit for someone who didn't earn it, because his destiny is attached to that affirmation. And when we talk about culture and upbringing, we don't know why he desired that so bad. But you made me the first fan to ever give him that accrual, to give him that affirmation, to honor his effort. Even though it lacked to your center, it didn't lack to God's and that's all that matters.
Norman:We got some caught up in moments and, oh, he ain't doing all that I did. It's like a self-righteous person saying oh, why God using them? Why would God use them? I've been in my closet, for I've been. I ain't going to use Chell he got two kids. I've been careful. Ain't going to use cell he got two kids, I've been careful. That's what it is.
Norman:It's like we got so caught up in he wasn't doing as much as us that we lost the fabric in the heart of who cares, yeah, who cares, who cares? And when you said we should have played, we should have played it by the same. And then the top artists left who cares? Then we were left with the people who were supposed to be there. That's the truth. That's the truth Because the purity of it is when you do things from an integral place and you do things from a pure place, the results you can always be okay with. You have what we have right now we're going through right now. That is, man, we didn't do the best we could. We didn't do the best we could, and that's the truth. I ain't never felt like this before, right now, before, I always thought we did. I mean.
Naomi:I think maybe we did the best, we knew how, and y'all did.
Norman:That's the truth.
Naomi:But it's not necessarily what we could have done.
JJ:You know yeah.
Naomi:And not that I don't think every decision was a wrong decision. I don't. I'm remembering that to certain things and conversations that we had and agreements that we made and people were struggling Do you need to get help? Do you need, like send you to uh, uh, counseling and all sorts of stuff like like, what do you need? I do think that there was a lot that that was done right and so I think sometimes it's just easy.
Naomi:You know, it's like you get 99 the comments, you get that one bad comment and it's like I think for me, the most part, like sometimes it's it's reading those comments, which is why I don't read comments anymore. It's where people kind of misconstrue the heart and intent of us, where I feel like we've no, I feel like we've gone through so much to like let this music out, like I remember us like in the middle of covid, when nobody knew what was going on, us going to record songs to encourage people's hearts, man, all of that like just it wasn't about, it really was not about money, because there was no money to be made in a shack.
Naomi:We were recording in a shack, literally Like it was for the love of the music and the love of the ministry and believing that the Lord had given us songs for the people. And in doing that, to hear people just kind of be like, oh, you're trying to murder that, it's like that's not it. And even if somebody has maybe an ego problem or like I know everybody that was involved in this the heart was and I can pretty much like take this to make I believe people's hearts was to actually bless people, even if they wanted an opportunity, even if they wanted to be famous too. I do believe that at the core of everybody and maybe I'm just no, I'm with you I think the heart was the same to try to bring people and use our gifts to glorify God.
Norman:Philippians tell us man, even if their heart wasn't in the right place, don't rejoice in the one right because they, because what they sang about was the gospel, they were worse than the hoods.
JJ:I wanted to speak to the moment. I feel like what's your, your emotion that I think you're experiencing is. I want to say this like every person that has left in any way that they've left, however, however they left, there is a sadness to it and as we were like talking through some of these, like it just I don't know, I just I was. You were talking about being traumatic. I was just thinking about, man, there's been a lot of loss, man, there's been a lot of loss and um, I, um, yeah, I just man, I, I'm, I am sorry for anything that I did to make someone feel like they didn't have space here, and whether that was my immaturity or bad communication or whatever, I just I don't know. I'm, just I'm. I just want to honor the moment, cause I've. What you're experiencing is. I think these are things that we've probably push away the feelings of, because we have to get through it. I remember, you know, yeah, and and I just I think it's cool to just take a moment just to say, like man, that it is hard because what we, what we did, was so special and and that's what.
JJ:When I told dante the other day when he was sitting on this couch. It was like like your contribution, your contribution there, like if there is no maverick city, if we don't come together and and and do this and create and I don't know. I just want to honor that. I don't want anyone to look at this and be like man, they're just talking about us in this nonchalant, who cares? No, like it when you say the names, when you say Aaron, when you say Dante, when you like it. It brings a rush of emotion and I just yeah, yeah, man, lots of respect and if there's anything that we can do to fix those things, we're at a check for $1 million to me.
Naomi:I'll make sure everybody gets their cut.
JJ:No just kidding, that's gross.
Norman:You know it's like when I see the comments and you know they talk vile for vile, for, vile for vile for vile for vile for you think we're going to do it Well we've talked about this.
JJ:I hope we do it I hope we do it. I hope we figure out a way to do it. I know that's going to, I think that we are.
Norman:I mean, and that was a point where it was a 1% chance, I think it's up to a 75% chance that it's pop. Wow, I do.
JJ:Grows 74 points.
Norman:I think we grow. In the past year I think it grew 74 points and I do believe I want to commend both of y'all. He's not as personal to me because when I came around it was two brain structure and two brain business and I didn't by nature and business I tell not to form personal relationships because I know people don't deal with it well, so like I didn't start calling Naomi my sister until I actually felt I ain't the one.
Naomi:I'm like that too. Why are we so close?
Norman:I ain't the one that's going to hit you. Oh, brother, that ain't no one I remember. And, joel, I'm sorry for this. I remember this. I know I missed this. I'm so sorry, joel, I'm sorry, I am sorry. Jj didn't have nothing to do with it. Tony had nothing to do with it. We was doing his tutoring man and he had to say something to somebody else and I said Blake, you ain't doing one of them assholes.
JJ:That's so savage, bro, come on. Well, I don't know I don't know no other.
Norman:It's a business conversation and I'll tell the truth. Why am I? Because you're doing one of song or she's doing my seven songs, like I'm confused. Why are you getting it? Because he was asking.
Naomi:No, dante was telling everybody what he was making, so Joel was like wait why am I making this, but he's making that?
Norman:And so it was like well, let's break it down this is why you're making it, which, yeah, I feel what I'm saying is that you probably shouldn't have had that conversation.
JJ:I shouldn't, yeah.
Norman:Y'all had a culture, but the thing was this it's like in one hand they wanted this is what? If I can say what the artists really wanted? They wanted, I just really want. They wanted what I was saying in the way you and Tony said things Gotcha. They wanted the truth, they wanted honesty, they wanted transparency, but they didn't want it from a like non-emotional type. They wanted a couch.
Naomi:It's not just non-emotional. I remember the first time I met you we're in, or maybe the first time I remember we're in the elevation I think I might have told you this. I was like, uh-uh, I'm not dealing with that, no more. We are in elevation, like that little green room, and he's like I'm going to be managing Naomi or I. I was like who is this? Are you all guys? I said that, is he all right? And I was like you don't manage, like he don't manage me. Because I saw like I was like, even if I'm one of these, like other girls, like I'm not that one. I know I be singing sweet and I have like a pure tone, but it's more corrupt Yo, I said what is going on with this, yo?
Naomi:back then you were talking junk Riley. It was a lot going on Back then.
Norman:you know, it wasn't what, no, I just saw y'all. It wasn't what it was with me Back then. I was such a hot shot in my head, man, because I might have done something. Naomi, all the controversies, all the Will Smith, dante, paul, gloria, upside down crossing Africa, did you ever see that crossing stage?
Naomi:No, you know what? I didn't even. I found out on TikTok, like everybody else, because, well, people were sending it to me like do you know about this? And I'm like what, why would we be using? The whole tour in Africa was not put together well, talk about it, talk about it. Y'all.
Norman:We can talk about it.
Naomi:It was not well done by the people who were running that tour and everything was variable every single night, so there was nothing consistent and apparently the file got inverted.
Norman:It's the file that we used from Kingdom. Tour in America.
Naomi:Right.
Norman:The stained glass that we projected right over 75 times.
Naomi:Right.
Norman:I didn't even know it was a cross at that top.
Naomi:I didn't know, they had to point it out. Zoom and circle Like I wouldn't have even known.
Norman:Why wouldn't you guys stop the show? Because they're facing the audience singing out about Christ Jesus, how good he is. First off, this symbolism thing that y'all do like it's so mis Like Satan ain't a symbol. You can't take the color red and make it Satan. You can't take fire and make it Satan. The Holy Ghost is parallel to fire in the Bible. You can't. The cross can be upside down, left, right, upside the cross don't represent Jesus. Left, right, upside the cross don't represent Jesus either.
Naomi:Why would it? To some Christians it does represent the resurrection, but also the upside down cross for some Christians represents Peter's crucifixion. He said I don't think I'm worthy to be crucified the same way that Jesus was, so put my cross upside down and that's how he was crucified. So for some that symbol means something else. I think the reality is, symbols mean different things to different people, and I think we can. We can. I don't want to say that they're crazy for thinking. I'm not saying that it's just like guys, we are a Christian group, like we're saying we're singing about Jesus.
JJ:We're singing Firm Foundation.
Norman:Yeah, that's the thing.
JJ:That's the thing that I'm standing on is that you can't.
Norman:if you see an upside-down cross while I'm singing, christ is my firm foundation. Where is the demonic behavior Like? Where is it? Because the cross upside-down, you're demonic, okay, but I am saying Christ is my firm foundation. Tyra, you are a love Enough bless me it's the Like I'm giving you the hell. What a bad thing.
Naomi:I mean, I think, okay, you know I can. I think that they're saying like it's a, you know it's a trick, so they're going to try to get you with little by little and like, one day you know what I'm saying the road to hell is paved with good intentions. It's like you think you're doing the right thing, or it's these little things that get you. But did Bible also say it was a kingdom?
Norman:a kingdom divided with itself. What's that?
Naomi:How do?
Norman:I test out demons using the devil Right.
Naomi:No, you're right, I almost sent you to hell using the gospel. But most of the people that are upset about this stuff are not reading the Bible. They're watching YouTube videos about the Illuminati and like other stuff. And I'm not talking about the Illuminati and like other stuff, and I'm not you had to talk about the Illuminati or other stuff but I think that they're getting Lord into this. It's a, it's a fascination and obsession with the, with darkness, and personally I think when you focus on on darkness, that's what you start to see. The Bible says to the pure, all things are pure, and so I think there it just cause all things are pure, and so I think they're it just because it doesn't make sense to the pure all things.
Naomi:That's good, it just it doesn't make sense and that's the stuff like that's the stuff that makes me very sad. It's like when people get on and go like don't go to your concert because you're gonna be like I don't know what it's, this is the devil's work. It's we're not doing the devil's work. I, I don't there, I just don't even have time to do the devil's work is we're not doing the devil's work. I, I don't. Then I just don't even have time to do the devil's work. I seriously don't have time to do his work.
JJ:I don't know what it's, just it bastards me, we we were honestly baffled too because like at first we were kind of like this is stupid, this will blow over, but as it we didn't even really want to respond to it. It was kind of like we were forced to because it just kind of kept raising and like its level of I just remember thinking like this is so stupid, like it's the, it's, it's the whole.
Norman:This is the reality. This is the thing that really gets to me. We've never like for all these little fake controversies, that like there's like what, what, what, what? Anyway, all the controversy surrounding Madison, okay, let's hit it. Dante, don't say he was excited to see Lil Nas X. That's controversy. What does that mean? The audience, oh well they keep talking.
Naomi:Well, I think that is controversial. Okay, I think that is controversial because if somebody does music that is, it seems like so opposite from this other artist and they're saying that they listen to them, that is controversial.
Naomi:I'm gonna say well, that's probably why you don't know, but I did see. No, no, but I did see one of his music videos where he's like dancing with Satan or something and like to me I go, this is really far from Old Town Road, you know, like this is. This is very different. And now this person is seeming to be like against the church and seeming to be like in love with Satan.
Norman:So why say that?
JJ:you're excited to see that person. To me that is controversial as a.
Naomi:Christian and someone who listens to Christian music. If Chris Thomas said that he was listening to Marilyn Manson, I'd be concerned.
JJ:It's the truth. It was so stupid and we all reacted that way.
Norman:That's almost not featured on a Magic City record since then. I know I don't want to defend.
Naomi:I don't want to disparage the people that were going. What's up with that? Because I think there is something up with that.
Norman:I'm just going to say what it is. What I'm getting at is this it's like we didn't remove Dante from the group, like he said he quit. Godspeed, it's our brother now. We stopped Dante. We're in relationship, shall I say, with Dante, love him, but I don't think that was wise to say. But I'll the reason I'm highlighting. I'm highlighting because what is the what is the other controversy? Um the bad bunny okay, he was missing the bad bunny on now I.
Naomi:That's not a reason to kick him out the boot.
Norman:I don't know why I even talked to him first, Because I mean, the reality is, listening to secular music is a wisdom thing. It's not a sin thing. I think it's a wisdom thing. Ain't no demon going to jump into you for listening to so-and-so. It can predispose you to making poor decisions. What's like having a shot of alcohol.
Naomi:I think sin is sin and I think some things are sin for. I think some things are sin for some people and not for others. So, like, whatever you do outside of faith is sin. So that's what the Word says. So I think for some people, if God has told them not to listen to secular music and they do it, then that's sin for them, and I think they might.
Naomi:I'm not tracking demons and what demons are jumping into who, but because I do minister in deliverance and I understand the spiritual realm and I do understand that things can be open doors for people, I do believe that if they are engulfed in that, it can open them up.
Naomi:I don't think that's necessarily the entryway of everything, but I do believe that sin is. And so if, if you're listening to music that is propagating an idea and a desire in you, like there's some music that's just it's not maybe talking about Satan, but it's talking about only money, money, money, money, money. I got to get money, and then you get this desire and love for acquiring money and now you're open to demonic forces, and I think that's a real thing, do I think it's just play a song and demon Like no, I don't believe that, but I don't want to discredit the spiritual realm. I don't want to discredit it, because if we believe that and I do believe, I believe that listening to certain types of music, like worship music or things, can spiritually affect you, then I believe that listening to another type of music from another spirit, can affect you Absolutely.
Norman:I ain't saying I don't think it can affect you.
Naomi:Right, I can't tell you, for the demons jumping in.
Norman:The demons jumping up on you. Just putting on the track is a lie for me. That's not like saying salvation's going to jump up on you just for this thing. Hey, you're going to have to make a decision in real life.
Naomi:But I don't think everybody makes decisions for demons to come into them. So I think sometimes somebody can sin against you and and they can impact you.
Norman:It's like being a molester, yeah.
JJ:Both of these things are connected to what we talked about earlier the responsibility of the moment. Right, absolutely Like, you're a part of a global movement, you're stewarding songs that the church is singing. There's just some things you shouldn't say on a red carpet and there's some things you probably shouldn't post on your public social media, Absolutely.
Naomi:I mean, sometimes you shouldn't even do it in private.
Naomi:Sure, sure, yeah, but I think it's even more like unwise to do it like publicly, especially if it can cause someone to stumble. And I think that's the responsibility of a believer is to try not to do things that you know are going to cause people to stumble. And so, whereas you know, there are many people that don't mind drinking. I remember my pastor when I was growing up. He used to say he enjoys drinking wine with his wife at home. He wouldn't do it in public, he would not go out to a restaurant and drink wine in a restaurant, because he was a well-known pastor in our area and he understood that for some people that was going to ruin the faith for them and it was more important for him not to cause this little one to stumble. And Jesus says if there's anybody that makes a little one stumble, they deserve a millstone tied around their neck and to drown in the sea. So it's important how we engage with people that are not as mature in their beliefs. But I think a part of maturity, and I think maturing in the faith, is that you should be being discipled with someone that can actually walk you through that and say, hey, well, this is a grave matter, right? This is an area where you actually have to walk, that that may not be sin for that person, but everybody doesn't have someone that's walking with them, and so I think this is where we are.
Naomi:It's a tricky space, I think, as, like music artists, period in the Christian space it's tricky because you're not just an artist, you are a leader, you are an influencer. It matters what you say. What you say is important and this is why who was the people on, like Good Morning America? I think they were like they fell in love with each other or whatever that couple or whatever and they were let go right Like it's and that's a secular platform. The guy that I think he was. They quit, really, oh, they quit. But there was another person at the morning show.
Naomi:I think it's based on Matt Lowry Lowry, I don't know. Yeah, matt Lowry, like he was on a secular platform. They hold people accountable for the things that they do because they have influence, and I feel like sometimes, sometimes Christian influencers and people in this space don't want to be held accountable. But if you are working in the world, you will be held accountable. A ceo of a company can't just be willy-nilly. You sign a morality clause. There's stuff that you, even in the world, so even more so when it comes in the church you understand what I'm saying.
Naomi:So, like I'm, it bothers me. While I do believe and this is me as a pastor I believe everybody's going through stuff, everybody and I want to walk with people and I want to have grace and I want to do that. I don't love getting on a podcast and talking bad about people and basically spreading gossip which I think is a sin about other people's lives. I think that's wrong. Even as a Christian influencer, I think that's wrong. I don't get that. But also I understand why people will question and go hey, what is this? It matters what you do.
Norman:So when you see all these people on YouTube talking about man, we're sitting down, lost their way, they worshiping the devil and woo-da-woo-da-woo, what do you? That's what they say Worship the devil, bro? Like yeah, I'm not either. Never have, never will, absolutely not. I believe in Jesus Christ, just fully and fully surrendered Of Nazareth, God. What, god, jesus, daddy, Straight like that, straight like that, you know what I mean. Like, come on.
Norman:But I think that the reason why these things and it's what you're talking about is a seriousness that is not funny is because, like, people are taking this stuff to heart they are you know, like people really are, I believe, like they really believe that maverick city, who did not perform will smith at the pt awards, chelamore did made a personal decision, not maverick city on purpose. And sunday service, by the way, k personal decision, not Maverick City on purpose. And Sunday Service, by the way, kanye's choir not Maverick City choir either. And Kirk Franklin, who is not affiliated with Maverick City, although he does have affiliation with me in some business arenas, but not Maverick City, like those type of moments, so like a Will Smith thing. Like you know, like what I struggle with is this it's not even the approach, it's the lack of, because, as they judge the tree by the fruit it bears, when you judge, when you look at Maverick City and the fruit that has come from Maverick City, or the fruit that it bears consistently, what are our actions, what are the things that we do? You know, like I often say, like if I'm responding to a comment, I say please send me some content of Maverick City's that's demonic, please send me the piece of content that is demonic or that leads, or that someone will listen to, that will lead them away from God. You know what I'm saying. Like that's what I want to see Like now.
Norman:Can you point to some of the actions in someone's life that may well perform in Lavin City that have been questioned by all means? You can do that with any of them. You can do that with you, the one right in the company. You can do that with any of you. You can do that with you, the one right in the company. You can do that with anybody. But as a collective we decide to step. Put our name on something. Does it have every intention to align with God? Align with the word God? I'm not going to say every song we ever wrote was the last click of faith. I'm not going to say every song we ever wrote was the Elijah Clicker rap. I'm not astute enough to say so.
Naomi:I think most of them are very good. I think each of the well, the rights I'm a part of. If I'm right from the bottom, I could. You can only speak for yourself. You know what I mean, and I think that's what happens when you're a part of a collective, like it's not a group, and so I think a group goes about, this is what we're doing, and then one person may go off and do whatever, because that's what happens in groups as well. But in a collective you're dealing with different artists and people have different thoughts. But from my perspective, any of the worship songs I can't speak for other stuff that happens that y'all didn't do with this.
Naomi:Mavericks in the music, but I can't speak to the other stuff because I wasn't there. What was this?
JJ:I just a lot of other stuff.
Naomi:American City. Music has become a lot of things. There's a lot of things.
JJ:There's a lot of things. I don't know what it is, but it's a lot of stuff.
Naomi:Yeah, we reimagined a whole bunch of stuff and we did a lot of other stuff. And we love to be in houses and with the math house and we like we doing a lot of different stuff, yeah, and with the Mav House and we like we doing a lot of different stuff. You was at Mav.
Norman:House.
Naomi:Yeah, but I didn't, and I you was at Mav House yeah, but I can only speak to the song that I wrote, right? I can't. I wasn't in those writing rooms with other people and that's the. Let me remind you. I don't know. I know what I'm saying, hold on. But no, I'm not Again. All I'm saying is that I've only speak to the songs that I wrote, and that's a part of being a collective and I'm not taking away from what we've done. I do believe that most of what we've written has been theologically correct and we try to gauge that stuff and go well, this is like sus, like no, and there have been songs, I think, that have come through from other writers, because it other writers because it's not only the people that you see on stages that write.
Norman:There's like a bunch of writers, and if something is a little sus, it's kind of like, and we're not gonna like sing that.
Naomi:Let me example something that's a little sus. I'm not doing that and honestly I can't even remember, but I think there were like certain things that can like. Even in writing rooms there would be like lines, I don't know, that might have not said certain things, or people maybe fighting because they didn't fully believe in, like the trinity. And I'm not talking about people that have been on platform, I'm talking about like, just like other writers, songwriters, and it's kind of been like okay, well, we're not gonna like not say that or we're not gonna like pull out the holy spirit because you don't like it. You know what I mean.
Naomi:So, like there's been, there's been moments where we've had to fight for what we believe is like theologically correct and biblical, and in writing, such and you know this because like we would end up talking or not arguing, but like debating some stuff, sometimes over what was right. So I think we've put a lot of care into the songs that we've written and the content that we release. For the most part, and I think you know I stand by the songs that that we've released. I know the stylistically things have gotten a little different. That's what I was referring to. I was just being petty but um, I'll start you.
Norman:What hello, how do you, how do you feel about that? I mean, I think, based on my past petty statement, I think like I mean, I think, based on my past petty statement, I think like you made an R&B album.
Naomi:Yeah, I made my R&B album and I stand by that as an artist, I think when you're a part of a collective and I told you, I feel like I am a part of Maverick City, right?
Norman:Because I'm, you are, maverick City.
Naomi:Right as a founding member, I think there are when decisions get made and this is from me who are the founding members? Myself, Dante, Chandler, outside of JJ Toney and, I would say, Brandon.
Norman:We didn't kick Dante out. That's a lie.
JJ:No, I know, but we didn't talk about it.
Norman:How do you feel about it today, now that y'all done, rolled again together?
Naomi:Oh, I think.
JJ:Yeah, here comes the real. I feel it already, it's coming.
Naomi:I know it's very difficult for me to not be honest. I think when all of this stuff first happened, I think I was still trying to hold things together. Yeah, I think now I'm in a place where I'm like I don't. Well, you know, I told you reconciliation like I want everybody to be good, but I don't know. I don't know if it could ever come back together and be what it was. So I'm not even sure. I think I would rather just remember it rather than experience it again. I wish it had gone different. I wish he didn't leave. I wish he didn't leave. It had gone different. I wish he didn't leave. I wish he didn't leave. Um, I'm glad that he seems to have come back and is like you know he told us to try but talk no, but not.
JJ:She means like in a deep way, I mean lately cause like I'm hearing stuff through you.
Norman:I mean I talk. I talk to Dante almost every day.
Naomi:I'm so happy for you. I talked to Dante yesterday.
Norman:every day I'm so happy for you.
Naomi:I told Dante yesterday yeah, congrats, I hope I had that, that honor.
Norman:I mean, but transparently, I knew Dante before he was in Maverick City, way before, like years before Maverick City, came to my church, worked with him and put him on his first album. So I think, like how he says it, he doesn't charge, unlike a lot of people. He doesn't charge his Mavic experience to me, I think because he had a relationship with me prior maybe, so he just see it the way he see it. But also I'm not in the thing I didn't do nothing to Dante.
Naomi:I didn't do nothing to anybody.
Naomi:So, I think for me although me, although, like there was, I don't think people know that what exists in maverick is like there's an executive team that makes a lot of decisions and does things, and that's maverick city music. And then there are these artists that come together and sing and we're in some of the original sounding members that that is Maverick City, and so the face of what people get except well, now that y'all are like more visible, the face was us, but the decisions and the brain was the executives, and so I think to be in this level with us and not really speak to us about being around feels like why, like we all have the same numbers, do you?
JJ:Yeah.
Naomi:Because it was stuff that and he, I mean he's admitted. I've seen like some of the things. Like he said like hey, I was just like doing this, I wanted to like you know it, just it didn't matter. And I'm like well, what you did actually tarnished my image, like you did something to the group and you didn't say anything to us. So for me, it's just a thing of like hey, like just.
Norman:Accountability yeah.
Naomi:And to me, and you know what.
Norman:The good thing, though you're saying this, he said the same thing, and on the podcast he said that he should have just talked to y'all at the time. He said a lot of what he felt was internal and that had y'all just worked it out amongst y'all. Because basically he's saying it don't matter what JJ and Trolley said, if Aaron want to lead this song and we decide Aaron's going to lead it, who's going to come take him off the microphone? You know what I'm saying Like, and what you're speaking to is that relationship. I think the beauty. This is why I believe Body and Folk will happen. It's because there was a Dante faction and then you had some individuals. That's what it was. There was a Dante faction and then some individuals. You had a little small faction too, but the Dante faction was Aaron Joel.
Norman:Dante you had a little faction who, what faction? Tiana, uh uh, what's Phil Bones? They had a big faction that that was a Dante faction. There was you and MJ, and then basically Cheryl and Brandon, they separate. They, that was a Dante faction. There was you and MJ, and then basically Cheryl and Brandon, they separate.
Naomi:They're like Look, I want you to know I'm cool with everybody, and then I don't have a faction.
Norman:It's about allegiance. When we had to put something up and vote, I could have told you who was voting together and who wasn't voting together. Yeah, it's like.
Naomi:I did that.
Norman:I did that, but I don't think anybody would be voting against me, unless it was for them. I think if Dante was against you, dante faction would go fail, you know what I'm saying?
Naomi:What I'm saying is that me and Dante were never against each other. Okay, for me, I think and I was, I think it was important to me to maintain relationship with every single person, even if something didn't work out for you in this, like I want you to know my heart for you, like I love you and vice versa, like we all have like relationship, and so my main thing is like hey, if you know what the things that you did affected us, even though I didn't come for you and even though I never talked about you, and even though I may have never been, like what you did hurt me, for you not to say anything is to me that's weird.
Norman:What is your relationship with Brandon?
Naomi:Me and Nicole.
Norman:That's all.
Naomi:Yeah, we text from time to time Interesting.
JJ:Is that okay, of course?
Naomi:it's okay I don't care.
Norman:Yeah, no, I'm saying, like I'm saying, that was a thing that Dante mentioned, that Was that out of everybody? Since everything happened, the only person he hasn't talked to is Brandon.
Naomi:Well, I get that. I think he and Brandon started off as much closer in the beginning, and then there were things that happened.
JJ:Well, he really said was that he felt betrayed by Brandon that Brandon was his brother.
Naomi:I understand that, but I think Brandon might have felt dishonored by Dante. What? That's my mother's name, I'm not saying you feel.
Norman:I want to know why you feel that way.
Naomi:I think when you're a part of something and you're building something, we all felt like we were founding members of this and when somebody does something to attack, it, attack what you're building. That's dishonorable. And I love Dante, but I think there were things that he did that directly attacked what we were building and it was almost like it don't matter. And I think to act like that and me and Dante have had. We talked in the beginning like hey've talked. We talked in the beginning Like hey, like you gotta you gotta own your own stuff, like you gotta take responsibility for your stuff. And the last conversation, the last real conversation we had, was a good one, like even though it was hard, but it was good. So I'm not, I don't have beef with Dante, I'm just saying something that we were all, that we all loved, that we all built together. It's like building a sandcastle we're building together and then you just you get mad one day and you kick it, like so.
Norman:I get why Brandon might be upset. I don't, I don't. I'll be honest, I don't give in where he's at Like what would it matter to him?
Naomi:This is when everything was happening. I don't know about now. I don't know what Brandon's feeling now. I don't talk about this stuff. I let bygones be bygones. Y'all made me come and be a maverick on the mic Like. I'm not. We're not talking about this stuff. We don't sit around and talk about this, so I'm not. I don't know what Brandon feels today. I know how he could have felt back then.
Norman:Got it.
Naomi:And I think, when you're working on something that you're proud of and that you want to succeed and it seems like somebody's not like caring about it or putting in the same effort, or even in communication, like we thought you were coming.
JJ:You didn't come like it's just stuff like that. I've to be honest, I've I felt a little bit of that with brandon, though me personally, I don't know, I just I always felt like they were, I felt like it was again. And this is like, if I call naomi and say, hey, I want there's this recording happening, it's like okay, when is it happening? What time? What do you need me to do? I want there's this recording happening. It's like okay, when is it happening? What time? What do you need me to do? Whatever? Like there's a conversation that's happened.
JJ:I always felt like with Brandon it was like I had to. There was like five conversations that needed to happen for him to say yes, when everybody else was like you know, at one conversation you know what I mean it just it felt like it was, uh, there was always this kind of like hey, that's cool, I don't know if I can be First tour, it's a moment, right, everyone's there, all the founding members are there. The whole tour Rehearsals. He's there Rehearsals. That was a thing. First tour rehearsals. That's Tony man. Yeah, for sure.
Naomi:But I think Brandon was treated a little differently than everybody else, and maybe it's because of the way he was engaging.
JJ:I think he for sure was.
Naomi:Brandon. Remember I told you there was like we were writing and then there was this group of people that were like doing that. Brandon was in that group of people as well. Tony, I feel like, kept Brandon like super close and there was also Brandon was. Brandon was a little different than everybody. He was at Church of Seacoast, he was doing the Bethlehem stuff. He was doing the Elevation stuff, like he was after y'all wrote this Is A Move and there was another song, I think. Um, he and Dante both seemed to have some opportunities a little earlier. So I think he probably felt like he should, or I don't know. I don't know what he thought, but it seemed like he was treated a little differently.
JJ:He for sure was.
Naomi:And so I get it. It seemed like he was maybe more demanding of things in the beginning, and I also think it's not easy to be the only white person in an all black situation. I think that that was uncomfortable for him and he said that from time to time and I think I don't know. I feel like he tried his best and we all tried to make it work because we get it. It's different cultures and I think Brandon loves us and we love him. I just think it was difficult to be the only white person, Absolutely Especially when a lot of what we did leaned toward our culture. So it's like you're literally being called outside of what's probably norm for you and your moment becomes maybe the one or the you know like, so different from some of the other moments.
Norman:What was your maverick moment?
Naomi:My Maverick. What do we mean? How are we defining a Maverick moment?
Norman:You know what a Maverick is? You out to your Maverick city. Like Maverick is like being independent, independent thinking, unorthodox, breaking away from the herd. The moment that I consider to be a legacy, defining moment in life in general, what moment defines the Naomi Reign Solomon?
Naomi:I think, hmm, I think Hmm.
Norman:Hmm, I don't know.
Naomi:This is going to be a center that I think a little bit. I don't know that. I have a moment.
Norman:Okay.
Naomi:I think, for me, I'm very like internal first, and maybe it was when I decided to live a life that I believed is authentic and love people that I love and spend time with the people that I love and go after what I believe God is calling me to do, like just, I think there was a point I'm saying that because I feel like it was more of a internal moment where I was like, hey, I'm just gonna live my life to the fullest for god's glory, and I think that that kind of played out, um, maybe somewhere around old church basement and um, between old church basement and kingdom tour. Um, that season was like very pivotal for me, um, and I think a part of it was because of all of the, the, the success of maverick and the moving up, and I realized, oh snap, the stuff that the holy spirit showed me when I was younger is actually happening. I think there's like I I always believed in God, always like, but there's something when a promise that God makes to you actually comes true and you start to go, oh snap, okay, maybe I am called to something greater, maybe I have to actually like for real, commit, fully commit. I can get into my feelings. I can do this out of this or I can start to tap into the wisdom that the Lord has given me and try to steward well what he's given me.
Naomi:In that season I made a lot of decisions and I kind of decided to live just 100% for the Lord. And when I say that I mean like for his glory. You know what I mean. So I don't think it was one moment I do think there was that it mean like for his glory. You know what I mean. So I don't think it was one moment. I do think there was that. It was that season and it wasn't so much about success, but it was about recognizing that, oh, the Lord actually answered or did what he said, because I didn't pray for any of this. He actually did what he said and I realized, oh, maybe it's for a greater purpose.
Norman:Hey guys, this has been a 12-hour conversation. This has been amazing. We talked to the queen Naomi Reign. We hit in every everything and just what the journey has been for Naomi Reign so far. Thank you Next time. Peace, thank you.