Mavericks on the Mic
Mavericks move differently. They are known for disrupting the status quo and rewriting the script. Mavericks on the Mic uncovers the “Maverick Moments” that have shaped the lives of our guests. From personal stories of risk, unexpected pivots to moments of faith and resilience, these stories will inspire you to see your own Maverick Moment — the one that changed everything, even if no one else knows about it.
Mavericks on the Mic
Kirk Franklin: What Gospel Music Forgot to Say Out Loud
This one’s not for the surface-level listener. In this episode of Mavericks on the Mic, we sit down with Kirk Franklin — not just the artist, the icon, or the GOAT — but the man. The one who has been carrying the tension between calling and culture for over 30 years.
We talked about it all:
🎙️Faith that’s lived in tension, not perfection
🎙️Wrestling with trauma while writing the soundtrack of a generation
🎙️Deconstruction, father wounds, and learning how to stay grounded in truth
🎙️Why gospel music isn’t dying, it’s shifting
🎙️Why Kirk said yes to Maverick City, and what it cost him
If you’ve ever struggled with faith, questioned your place in the church, or wrestled with who God really is while trying to navigate real life, this conversation is for you.
This is what happens when the legend pulls up, keeps it real, and holds nothing back.
Chapter Markers
00:00 – Living in the Tension: Kirk Keeps It Real from the Start
02:24 – Has Gospel Music Gone Too Far?
04:30 – Authenticity, Trauma & Writing from the Middle of the Mess
06:48 – Same Kirk, Same Struggles — Just More Honest
08:25 – Writing Through Pain: “Jesus, Help My Emotions”
10:10 – Christmas with No Tree: Childhood Stories That Shaped the Man
15:09 – Where Kirk’s Relationship with Jesus Started
22:31 – The Church, Surrogacy, and Why So Many People Feel Controlled
25:44 – Can the Church Weaponize Good Things?
28:44 – Deconstruction vs. Destruction: What's Really Happening
33:02 – Why Kirk Started Studying Apologetics in His 30s
35:47 – The Roof, The Piano, and the Romantic Side of Faith
37:35 – Why He Became an Artist Without Ever Dreaming It
44:27 – What Maverick City Tour Meant for Him at 52
46:29 – “Imagine Me” & How Race Changes How We Worship
50:00 – A 360 Worship Experience: Black, White, Rich, Poor, Together
53:06 – Giving Voice to Vulnerability in Gospel Music
57:13 – Why Kirk Hid His Grammys in the Garage
59:57 – What Changed After the 1st Grammy Win
1:01:57 – Authentic Christianity Lives in the Tension
1:08:17 – The Church’s Fear of Grace — and Why We’re Losing People
1:13:40 – Why Success Feels Heavier Than Struggle
1:15:52 – Light vs. Dark: Why Kirk Still Does Collabs
1:20:16 – Why Kirk Said Yes to Kingdom
1:27:08 – Is Gospel Music Still Alive?
1:35:21 – Kirk’s Real Concerns About the Future of Christian Culture
1:38:07 – Closing: Authenticity Always Wins
#KirkFranklin #MavericksOnTheMic #FaithAndFame #GospelMusic #ChristianDeconstruction #AuthenticFaith #ChurchCulture #BlackFaithExperience #WrestlingWithFaith #KingdomTour #ChristianityInTension #MusicAndMinistry #ModernGospel #ChristianCulture #KirkFranklinInterview #MaverickCityMusic
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That the pendulum has swung too far. The extremes. I believe that true Christianity is lived in the middle of the tension. I want to see the numbers, but I don't want to see them. I'm married, but man, she fine. That's authentic. That's authentic. Get away with me, bro. Brother, I don't look at anything, bro. Bro, I can't help you. I don't even know what you're talking about. You're talking another language, bro, I can't help you. I don't even know what you're talking about. You're talking another language. She is fine.
Speaker 3:I don't understand what's wrong with what you're looking at? What's up everybody? Welcome to another episode of Mavericks on the Mic. I'm JJ. I'm EJ.
Speaker 4:My name is Norman Jumphy and today we have a special guest, my brother, my friend. He's affectionately known as the GOAT greatest of all time, and that is.
Speaker 1:I am the Alpaca. My name is Kirk Franklin the Alpaca. Have you ever seen an? Alpaca they spit right, but they're very awkward looking.
Speaker 2:Well, you're not funny looking, he's a little funny looking, I'm a little funny looking.
Speaker 4:Well, you're not funny looking. I mean, he's a little funny looking, I'm a little funny looking. 5'6", 5'7".
Speaker 1:No, I'm 5'4", 5'5", 200 pounds. Thank you, dad, all muscle.
Speaker 2:All muscle, all muscle, oh Lord.
Speaker 1:Man. Thank y'all for having me, bro. Thank you for being here, man. Thank you for being here, man. Thank you for coming this is super good.
Speaker 4:We're going to have a great conversation, you know? Yeah, we've done a lot of work together over these past few years. Absolutely yes.
Speaker 1:Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 4:And we wanted to have our brother down. Just to you know, we're kicking it back off Maverick's on the mic, so this is what it sounds like, man. We're going to talk about some experiences, some trials and tribulations, some ups, some downs, some controversies, some wins, some losses.
Speaker 1:How they impacted all of us Many. Yeah, man, and don't take it easy on me, don't give me the Christian-ese.
Speaker 4:No, don't even do that, let's keep it a stack. Yeah, we won't even do that. That's good, let's get it in.
Speaker 1:Man Love it I. Let's keep it a stack yeah we won't even do that. It's good. Let's get it in, man Love it.
Speaker 2:I have a question off the bat and I've been thinking about this for some days. You have a song where you start off. For those of you who think that gospel music has gone too far has Kirk Franklin ever gone too far?
Speaker 1:Well, first of all, I've never heard that song. I don't know. I'm trying to gather the comparison. Trying to understand what you mean by that. It's, I think, too far subjective. I think it's subjective. I think that you know, did Martin Luther go too far with the Protestant Reformation? You?
Speaker 2:know, did MLK go too far?
Speaker 1:with the movement. You know it's, it's all. Because some would say, yes, you know, um, billy graham told martin when he was in jail that he was being too loud, they need to be more quiet. So, you know, some would say that he was doing too much, that he was going too far. I mean, you know, um, many of our, you know, you look at, you, look at augustine or tertullian, some of the early church fathers they were, you know they were. They were put in prison for having these monotheistic ideals, you know. So it's all subjective, but when you say too far, um, it's, I don't know anything else but zero to a hundred, whether on stage, in my own personal life, wherever I am, that's all I know. And I don't know it, uh, consciously, you know, it's just kind of part of my wiring, so I just try to show up and be the most authentic, whatever that may be that day.
Speaker 2:I think one of your hallmarks if I can speak freely is that you are authentic and transparent and humble about it. Like you are quick to fall on the sword, quick to apologize, quick to say I'm not perfect. I mean a lot of the music and the lyricism that you've given people for decades at this point has given us a glimpse of what it looks like to be honest and broken, but still used. Was that intentional in your artistry or is that just an outgrowth of who you are?
Speaker 1:it is very much a byproduct of who I am, to the point that it's very weird for me when people, when, when people highlight it like my whole career has been very weird that vulnerability, transparency, being kind and nice to people, or people saying that you're humble, you know, like, like you know, these are the attributes, I think, of every struggling saint. That's a sinner, right, you know, and and and so it it. It has always been a weird conundrum for me when they have sometimes had this level of uh, of exclusivity. When there's a conversation that I'm hearing from people is because I think that those should be attributes. That, like I don't understand. The deficiency of the attribute is that all I know is, and I don't know, you know if it's, you know if it's, if it's related to my childhood trauma, my deficiency, my absence as a kid, that I'm just very quick to like yell for help or yell that I need help. I got a problem, I got a struggle, like I've been that way my entire life, so it's, I don't know it to be something that is. You know, there's this unique attribute about me. It's just all I know to be, you know, and uh and uh. And Paul McCartney said uh, who? Who needs therapy when you have music? So you know, and and I think that music for me has been my couch my entire life that I'm able to talk about whatever it is, I feel.
Speaker 1:You know, I remember being 20 years old and writing a song. One of my first placements was a song on Savoy Records and the song said I'm sorry, forgive me, clean me up. Jesus, I didn't mean to hurt you nor desert you, because I love you so much. I admit it that I did it. I didn't mean to let you down. Please, jesus, turn my life around and give me another chance. You know I'm 20 years old. You know, and those are the sentiments of my you know heart as a young man, and still the sentiments of my heart today.
Speaker 4:Wow, what would you think, what would you say, is the biggest change from that 20-year-old young man to today?
Speaker 1:Not much, really Not much, not much. I think that—.
Speaker 4:Some people would say that would be sad that not much has changed.
Speaker 1:Well, I think it's all in the eyes of the level of honesty that somebody would say, okay, honesty that somebody would say, okay, it's. I don't think that people should ever expect for success to be an, an, an, an attribute that just automatically means that there is this evolution of who you are internally. It's, it's. I think that the swords that we fall on, the crosses that we carry, the thorns that we possess, these are real realities for people that are in the space that we exist in. I asked my therapist once. I said why do you think? Because I make fun. I said why do you think that I'm one of your longest patients that you've ever had? He started laughing. He said because every experience in your life it turns on a new trauma. Wow, it turns on a new trauma. Wow. Whether it was childhood, or the audio tape with Carry On, or this experience with thinking one man was my dad and wasn't, or the industry changing or empty nesting, every experience is now a reoccurring experience in your life. But at the same time they end up being ink for the pen. You know, like I'm working on a song now for the project for another Kirk record, and it starts off Jesus, please help my emotions.
Speaker 1:I wake up feeling afraid. I try so hard to control them. Feels like um, um, don't know what to expect from every day. Will I get closer? Will I get stronger? Tell me, when will this ever end? Take me through the fire, cleanse me in your uh, uh flames. Purify desires that get in the way. Can you take me higher? I'm ready to escape. Whatever is not like you, I'll bring it every day till you take this thorn away. You know. So. You know you don't get to talk like that without something. So I just fully believe that you know, just kind of based on on, on, on where you track theologically, you know, is I just believe that God allows a certain amount of to certain people's lives because that's what he needs to use to keep the pen full of ink. And if that's the case and to be able to be, at 55 years old, traveling with Maverick City and being in stadiums, then bring on the pain.
Speaker 2:That's how I've come to the resolve have you always been willing to do that?
Speaker 1:yes, really, I've always had that and I think that's also because I was, I think that because I was born and raised in it, like I lived that before I wrote that Like I remember being 13 years old and the lady that adopted me, gertrude right, you know, we didn't have nothing. There was Christmas really wasn't celebrated at the crib, there was really no money or nothing. And one night my biological mother came over. It was a Christmas Eve. She came over, and again Christmas Eve she came over, and again this was a lady that would come in and out maybe two, three times a year.
Speaker 1:You know, I didn't really know her well, and so I remember her coming over and she fell asleep on the couch and at 12 am Christmas morning, I remember going because there were no gifts. I mean, there was no, there were no gifts up on. I mean, there was no tree, no gifts, nothing. It was just nothing. It was just me, a 73-year-old lady and a woman on the couch that I did not hardly know. And I remember going outside and looking up in the sky and saying happy birthday Jesus, like you know, kind of like, well, that's it and so, and I know that it sounds like violins and it sounds like tears, but I'm telling you that is the aesthetic of how I grew up.
Speaker 4:Did you know better, though? That's something I always like to reflect on with people. It's because you know in your upbringing. You only know how you grew up, what you did you know what I mean?
Speaker 1:That's it.
Speaker 4:So did the people around you have that? Did you know you were missing something at christmas then, or did you find out as you grew you?
Speaker 1:knew based on the uh the tv show okay how the?
Speaker 1:family's sitting around with the turkey or you know, you know, you know whether it's a charlie brown Christmas or you know the Waltons come home for Christmas. I'm kind of showing my age, you know. So you have an idea that there is a world out there that exists, that has a certain aesthetic of mom and dad and siblings, like you know, like even the most simple thing a minute ago of watching you and your biological siblings say hey to each other and hug something about it, was very beautiful for me but yet painful because I don't know, what that feels like.
Speaker 1:so these, these, these, these dichotomies of emotions that I've lived with my entire life and I know it sounds so overdramatic. I know some, some people say, man, you got 20 Grammys, you got this, and that Can you get over. I wish it was that easy. Wow, I wish it was that easy. I would love to be able to close my eyes and do the genie thing and be just Gucci. But life be life, and I think that what I try to do is to try to be an oracle and and and a conduit to say don't let Christianity fool you. Yeah, this can still be hell that you still gotta live with, that's right it's the same way that a bride, same way that a bride at the altar.
Speaker 1:And she says I do. And they get in that car and there's a diesel truck that hits that car and now her husband is now a. He's in a wheelchair for the rest of his life. You can't tell that woman that she's just going to be giggly because she's going to have to live with the pain and the wives. And she got the and and and she just said I do to death, do a spot.
Speaker 1:She just said it there are people that live like that, but I think that modern christianity has a way that now everything is such a freaking TED talk that we don't even get to the core. Reality is that that that Jesus said in this world you will have trouble, hell. The first hundred years of Christianity was built on martyrdom. There wouldn't even be Christianity if it hadn't been for cats being killed. That is how we have Christianity. We have Christianity based on the foundation of martyrs. That ain't cute, that ain't sexy. But in the 21st century, because we can, you know, have on some Balenci's and we forget that we are part of a history that is built in trauma, that is built in chaos lies deceit, chaos lies deceit that western christianity has so many layers that when we look at, from the crusades to colonialism, that we have been a people that have been traumatized, trying to get to a place of peace with the creator that, at the same time, sovereignly allowed it right.
Speaker 3:That's one thing about you that I that I'll say. It's like you feel like such a safe place for people who are outside of the normal bounds of the Christian church. I feel like you represent something that people feel like. Man, I'm down with Kirk, I like where he's at, but it's because of what you just articulated. You are not this fake Christian. He's kind of like you know, it's all cute and cuddly, like you keep it real. Why do you think you're like that? What is it about? Your artistry, your life, your ministry that like gets you to a place where you don't feel like you have to say, man, it's all together, it's all perfect, like what, what about it?
Speaker 1:Where's my camera? I'm going to say like Jesus is my medicine and you need me to be on my medicine.
Speaker 2:That's what it is.
Speaker 1:That's what it is. I am very clear that my equilibrium would be really in a state of chaos if it hadn't been, and I think what was really dope about my coming up is that Jesus had my heart before he had my soul.
Speaker 4:Where did that come from, Like where did your relationship with Jesus originate?
Speaker 1:Here's what happened, being a long once again. Gertrude was 64 years old when she adopted. I was a four-year-old kid. Gertrude wasn't taking me to the park. There was no company coming over because the whole neighborhood was older people. Now maybe some of their grandkids, great-grandkids, would come over from time to time.
Speaker 1:We'd get to play you know, what I'm saying, but for the most part it was me and her. She was a church lady, so she'd be singing, you know, washing dishes, singing hymns. We were always at. There was this aroma of Jesus, always in the house, right, always in the house. So for me, as a kid that did not have a playmate or a friend, jesus quickly became okay, she's talking about Jesus, she can't see him, I can't see him. Well, he can be my friend too. So early on as a kid, I'd be the kid that would climb on top of the house, because you know, little hood trap houses, you can jump on top of right, you can jump on top of the roof you know saying you get a good tree limb and go top of the roof and I would get up there at night and just talk to jesus.
Speaker 1:I would talk to jesus all the time. What would you talk about? You know, just. You know just saying things like I love you, or you know, you know um, you know, you know where you at, I'm thinking about you and you know, you know, do you think about me what?
Speaker 2:That's so.
Speaker 1:I didn't have no friends. I didn't have. I lived in an older neighborhood, bro. There was no friends. Everybody was on Bengay, everybody had wigs and you know, and dentures. You know it was. I'm telling you.
Speaker 4:Did you? I mean, what you're saying is really gut-wrenching and emotional, yeah no, it really is.
Speaker 2:I don't want to be Debbie Downer Did you wonder where your parents were.
Speaker 4:I'm trying to really get back to that moment, because people hear these stories, and they definitely hear these stories from people that assume are famous or celebrities or Christians, and they don't understand the journey. You know what I mean and what makes somebody who they are, or the joy you exude on that stage simply because of those moments on the roof, yes, or those Christmases where you didn't have it that day.
Speaker 2:That's good, or?
Speaker 4:now that you have a family. That's good, that's good. And why it means so much to you, because you always wanted that hug from a sibling. That's right. When you bring words to life like this, it really gives people a different viewpoint on who you are. So it's like I remember wondering what my dad was. You know what I mean. I remember those moments of like man, I quit playing football because I got to tackle hard and you know, when I went home, my dad wasn't there.
Speaker 2:No one told you to go back out, nobody told me to go back out.
Speaker 4:I told my mom I ain't want to play no more. She said all right, you ain't got to play football no more. But my best friend, when he got hit hard, his dad was at home. He said boy, get up and hit him harder.
Speaker 1:So it's those small little things.
Speaker 4:So for you, in those moments, you're on the roof, you're still seeing these TV shows. You see these parents. Are you asking God more gut-richly, where are my parents? Where's my dad? Where's my mom?
Speaker 1:you know, first of all, that's, that's, that's an amazing question, amazing question. Interestingly, the the, the idea of him in those moments, really became enough.
Speaker 3:In those moments, when we did kingdom I remember calling norm I was like why kirk, why? Why does Kirk have so many people in the studio with him? Cause you like people, just come by to hang out. It was like and you loved it you stop a session, come in, come in, come in, come in. And I like hearing where you come from and hearing the loneliness and hearing like you being best friends with jesus sitting on the roof. It's like I think you just want to be the thing that you didn't have to other people. That's intentional, right, like that's is.
Speaker 1:I think there's a duality to it. Is I think that? Yes, yes, no doubt it is that, and then it is. Also, I find music has another layer of seasoning essence when it is in the process of community.
Speaker 2:When it's made in the process, like that.
Speaker 1:When it's being cooked in the process of community. So you see those people being there as a part of your process. When I have people come in, I'm looking at necks, I'm looking at heads, I'm looking at faces. I'm looking to see who's bopping, who's patting their foot. Do I see a tear? Okay, I don't. I'm looking to see who's who's bopping, who's patting their foot, who's? Look, do I see a tear? Okay, I don't see a tear, do I? Okay? I wonder how this is feeling in the room.
Speaker 2:That, that's it's intentional, so that contributes to the songwriting process. So when I've come by you're saying I have like points on the songs, like because essentially I've contributed you become five percent, you become a test community yeah, it's your group study. Yeah, exactly it was a tiktok before. Exactly it's like a tiktok. Does that ever bite you, though? Like does that ever go too far, where suddenly you have so many opinions, so many thoughts, that it's almost like?
Speaker 4:you think people actually give negative opinions to kirk in the studio?
Speaker 1:yes, yes, it's because those are not the people that I invite those are not the people that I invite, it's I and it's I include, you know, just the people that have been around so long, so they have an an invested interest in the journey. You know I'm talking about people 20, 30 years. Those are the people he's talking about coming back. And that is necessary for me is because I'm never one to automatically assume something's good. I need to feel what it feels like in a room to be able to know what needs to change. And here's the thing I don't always ask opinions. A lot of times I'm just watching the response and then I'll make the thing.
Speaker 4:I don't always ask opinions A lot of times. I'm just watching the response and then I'll make the changes. I do want to go back to a question we was talking about just a little bit earlier, where I was asking you about the questions you were asking Jesus.
Speaker 4:Yeah man, like and like. Like I said, you know, I felt deeply the absence of my dad in my life, especially as I got older. You know what I mean. It's apparent in me, if you know me, and I think, as you talk about those conversations that you're having on the roof and just hearing you, man, I think oftentimes we see lack the wrong way, like I don't hear your story and see lack. I hear your story and see abundance in different areas you know what I mean and so give me the morning, like because you lack parents.
Speaker 4:Your relationship with jesus was deeper yes because you put yes. What we would generally inappropriately assign to our parents, you directly assign to him Automatically. So it was perfect. When you were sad, you went to Jesus. When you were hungry, when you needed a companion, you went to Jesus.
Speaker 1:You did that from a very young age. That's what.
Speaker 4:I mean you had an abundance Off the rip. I was like that off the rip.
Speaker 1:That's why I said he had my heart before he had my soul yeah yeah, yeah, and and and and.
Speaker 1:What is very interesting about what norman says so eloquently is the dichotomy of it as we continue to matriculate through life. If it's, it's because, if jesus and the symbols and the environment of Jesus that now becomes church or religious culture, if you're young and Jesus is a surrogate, now that you get older and the church and church culture becomes a surrogate, that's when things become now gray and they can become problematic, because there are certain things that the church deems as biblical that's more cultural within the framework of church. It's not always theological, it is. It is the isogeeting of moments or the weaponization of moments, whether it's slavery or marriage or giving. So if people did not grow up with parents, now you can see why they're so controlled by what is being said behind the pulpit. It's because that surrogate mentality continues to exist.
Speaker 4:Expound on that. You gave three examples. I think people will agree, just to agree. Or they'll say oh, kirk is saying we don't need marriage anymore.
Speaker 1:Let me give context more. Give some context on that, if you're younger and if you're a young individual like me, where your introduction to Christianity had more of a surrogate dynamic and you saw it more parental, that means that it's going to be very hard for anybody to tell you that what you are hearing, seeing and thinking about that ideal is wrong, because you're speaking. It's almost like in the black culture. It don't matter if Big Mama had a fourth grade education, whatever Big Mama said at that table. That's the truth. There's an authority there.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and Big Mama could be flat out wrong, but because it's Big Mama, that's right. Ain't nobody questioning what Big Mama said. So I'm saying that that type of authoritarian ideal continues as you matriculate in your faith, and the only place that you matriculate in the faith is church culture.
Speaker 4:I get it.
Speaker 1:So then the pastors and the environments and the institutions, whatever they now begin to say, that's truth, that is truth. That is truth, no matter how they said, no matter the construct in which they said. So you must maneuver like that. For example, there were many of us myself, you know, even though I have an incredible, amazing, powerful woman. There are a lot of us whether it was men that were dealing with homosexuality of us, whether it was men that were dealing with homosexuality. There was a generation that you got married to try to fix sin, because of the narrative of the church and you're not going to argue with it, because of that type of that type of authoritarian uh um, mother, father, figure that the church represented for so many people that were deficient of it. So that does not mean that marriage is wrong. That does not mean that giving is wrong. That does not mean that denominations are wrong, but in the wrong hands they can quickly become weaponized. That's what I meant.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when did you? You know, cause you have had a long career. A lot of people only know the solo artist, Kirk.
Speaker 1:Franklin, it's all about solo A solo artist is crazy.
Speaker 4:I want to say that for a quick second. I want to, just like Kirk is. So Kirk gets so insightful sometimes. So for me it's like when you even uh, I was going to ask, can a good thing, weaponized, be bad? Like, can something God called good, even weaponized, become bad? Yes, sir.
Speaker 1:We see it with chattel slavery. We see how scripture was used. If every church in America during segregation would have agreed that chattel slavery was sin, slavery would have never existed in North America. If every church would have collectively said that slavery was a sin. Just a sin I'm talking about with no political engagement at all, just collectively. Because during the Eisenhower administration the evangelical movement or the Christian right movement was already advancing in America that it had so much influence on the ideas of people as much as politics that if the church in America collectively would have said slavery, especially chattel slavery, is a sin, it could have never existed in America. It could have never so. So yes, it was weaponized and it became a very bad thing. I remember during the 80s and 90s about the purity movement. You remember the?
Speaker 1:movement the purity movement was so focused on what to not do that's right that people did not know what to do. That's right. When they got married and you saw marriage begin to dissimilate. Yes, yes, so I believe too much of anything good can be bad.
Speaker 4:That's interesting. How do you reconcile that with? Devil gets out of door.
Speaker 1:Good it's because you have to realize that you're still wired for it, that Paul says that eternity still exists in the hearts of man and as much as we like every human being and every individual that is a human has a God.
Speaker 1:No one is absent of a God, because we were divinely designed to have one. And so that means that if we have God consciousness, we have God consciousness, we have God focus, and that God focus will always lean to the pursuit of something good, whatever your good is, and so that's the duality of not always, you know that that's what we're not a monolith even in our approach, but we are designed to want something bigger and better, and so that's the pursuit of good. Now, now the problem is is good in society becomes subjective? That's the challenge. Is that your good is not my good? And then we start building all these other constructs that also become a very authoritarian mindset that has to be deconstructed as well.
Speaker 2:When did you start this process?
Speaker 4:I was about to say, deconstruction is a hot topic issue it's a firebrand word, it has a lot of connotation to it.
Speaker 2:But again, people don't know, People don't agree about what that means, right? People are saying I'm deconstructing my faith and they're really just asking God questions that I think are healthy to ask. Other people are deconstructing haphazardly. I was just showing my kids the other day a video of building implosions and how they tear down a building, and they do it systematically. Engineers have to set where the dynamite is going to go so that it implodes properly. Otherwise, if you just blow it up, it falls every other way and causes chaos. And there's a way to deconstruct something in a way that is helpful and then there's just a way to be destructive, and I think a lot of people right now think they're deconstructing in a constructive way, but they're really just destroying the faith.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, and I'm going to be very candid with you, I think that the resolve to that is because we're mere mortals and the human experience is very messy, it's very broken, it's our species is still trying to figure out this idea of mortality and immorality. No, no, no, no, not immorality With mortality. Right, we're still trying to figure out the idea of mortality From the beginning of mankind. Think about it. There was a time that the sun was a god, and then the evolution of understanding. It sounds okay, no, that's not a god, that's just a big, fiery red thing. Um, the evolution was that the earth was one thing and this. So, as we continue to evolve in our species, the, the, the, the consciousness of who we are and who god is is always changing and morphing to these other ideas. So the case for God is also in the hands of God. So we allow the process of deconstruction. Let it be what it is. It's going to be messy over here, it's going to be problematic over here, but God is not that weak of a God. He still figures it out in the end.
Speaker 1:We saw that during the Enlightenment. During the Enlightenment was the rise of atheism. So you know, and, and we saw it. Where, where, where, where, where we, we have this atheistic, agnostic view of society in time. But then we had this remnant and during the Billy Graham moment, you know, we saw, we saw the rise of the Jesus movement in the 70s. So it's always coming back around, right. Nothing new is really under the sun. So if people are deconstructed, I think it's good. I think some church doors should be closed, tore down and be rebuilt in the way that it's not about the building but it's about Jesus.
Speaker 2:What do you say to the believer who says no, no, we're called to contend for the faith. Then, like what is contending for the faith look like in the face of allowing people to honestly and authentically deconstruct or question and challenge, they're contending for the faith. Doing that is a contend.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, yes, yes. That's what we saw in Martin Luther, that's what we saw in the Protestant Reformation, that's what we saw in Calvin, that's what we saw in Arminius. We see this historically, that there are these ideals that we have tension with. Did God find us or did we find God Right? You know, calvin is saying one, arminius is saying another. You know, did we get saved or did Jesus save us? Did I choose to be saved or did Jesus just automatically?
Speaker 2:orchestrate my steps.
Speaker 1:Yeah so and so, whatever the case is, it is historically been deconstruction. These individuals were deconstructing. Augustine was deconstructing, alexander was deconstructing, tertullian was deconstructing. They were all deconstructors.
Speaker 2:Tertullian was deconstructing. They were all deconstructors. That's good. Yeah, I'm going to say this. You're not going to like it because you don't like compliments like that, but I don't know many other artists in our space that can have a conversation like this, and I don't mean from the standpoint of a heart posture, but heart plus education, plus studying, plus research, plus self-awareness. That's because I can't sing. If you could sing, you wouldn't have time.
Speaker 1:I have a lot of time on my hands. I have a lot of time on my hands.
Speaker 2:But like when did that become a part of it? Is that part of your?
Speaker 1:arsenal. I became challenged, yeah, when my faith started being challenged, because you know God and his plan in my life, I spent a lot of time in my career in non-Christian environments, and in non-Christian environments I would have my faith challenged, having my faith challenged by the five percenters, by the black Hebrew Israelites. I was always having my faith challenged. So around about 30, when I was 35, 36, 37, I started really getting into apologetics and I would even have a professor from, from, from, uh, from, uh, from a theological university, as I would pay him uh, just to just, uh, just to tutor me in apologetics. And and so I just really wanted to be able to understand the historical context of why I believe what I believe.
Speaker 1:Because, an African-American, we have had religious ideals weaponized against us so much, and so I wanted to be able to understand the ugliness in the history of my faith but then also understand the historical authenticity of my faith, so that I can be able to do both ends, to be able to acknowledge, yeah, there's some BS over there, but here's the real historical truth of it over here, because a lot of people don't know that there is past the emotions, past Jim Crow, past slavery, that there is real, authentic truth that the first Christians that Europe did not influence Africa, africa influenced Europe. That's a historical fact. You would never know that just running around shouting in church. And so I needed to be able to have that. And then I wanted to also be able to have moments where, even musically that you know, I understand that we know what we're talking about it's because just too emotive for me was not going to be enough.
Speaker 2:So it wasn't to be able to debate other people, it was for your own conviction.
Speaker 1:Most not going to be enough. So it wasn't to be able to debate other people, it was for your own conviction. Most apologists always start with their own fear of faith. Think about every movement starts with somebody that once in that movement, that was traumatized by it. When you look at Mothers Against Drunk Tribes, think about it. It started by somebody who lost a child you know.
Speaker 1:So every movement in our time always kind of advanced by the trauma that happened in it. It's because that's what sets your trajectory of trying to gather the information for yourself. And the more you learn, the more it's hard to contain the knowledge and so it really becomes the language in which you speak. Yeah, but I was on that roof and then see, we also had a little raggedy piano in the house. So I think that is the reason why the language was not as much about where's my mom and daddy Is that I think that the roof conversations were the continuum of the piano things.
Speaker 1:You know, I'm saying like I would write a song. I wrote a song as a kid. Rain him, undisket me down. When you're not around, I need someone to hold to comfort in my soul. Stay with me until the summer. I promise you'll never love another.
Speaker 1:So by the time I'm getting on the roof I'm just continuing that conversation like it was very romantic, like my conversations with him. They were very romantic. It was a very romantic love thinking about and just the feeling and and then see in nature for me was always the confirmation that who I was talking to is real, like birds and like all of them, the stars in the sky, this just a numerous amount of the stars in the sky, were amazing to me. So you know, it's like man, look at you know. So, so, so the beauty in which I in in the environments in which the conversation was happening also was the.
Speaker 1:It was the canvas of the language as well. You know, if you're, you know, you know you're up there at 11, 12 o'clock at night and you got this soft summer wind blowing on your face, leaves are moving and you're looking at star sky. Well, it's like, well, you know this is a romantic moment to have a conversation with this friend of mine. So you know I was always looking for those moments. I've always been an outside talk to Jesus guy as a kid.
Speaker 3:I'd love to take us from the young Kirk Franklin, who Jesus had his heart and then eventually got his soul, to the Kirk Franklin that decided to become an artist. And I want to talk about that evolution and like, maybe, what your goals were, what you saw, what your, what your um, what were you inspired by? What did you want to do why? Why did you become an artist, a gospel music artist?
Speaker 1:man, I just hate to sound so bad like a Debbie Downer, bro. I just no like, like, like, like. I just I'm serious like no cap. It just feels like, bro. I'm serious Like no cap. It just feels like, bro, you ain't got no sunlight to your store.
Speaker 1:My life has always been led by an invisible hand pushing me in my back. I was too broke to have dreams. I was too broke to have dreams Like I didn't have dreams. I didn't broke to have dreams Like I didn't have dreams. I didn't dream of being anything. I didn't. I would only respond to the response of people. I started playing the piano when I was four years old. Gertrude would recycle cans and newspapers to pay for my piano lessons. We want government aid, government cheese, really, really poor. And so, as I started playing the piano in the communities, in the church communities, they were called, they were looking at me like a little prodigy and it was weird. Now, mind you, I didn't know it and gertrude watch this. She was not the type of individual that was affirming, because you know that generation they weren't going to affirm.
Speaker 1:You know oh you good son, that's good, you know good. I never got that, I bro, so she'd hear you play. She was born in 1908. Ain't nobody listen?
Speaker 2:you're not far removed from the cotton field ain't no participation, trophies, nothing nothing.
Speaker 1:There was no affirming coming back as a kid, so. But what I noticed is that the lack of approval and acceptance. I was looking for her. I saw the reaction of people like, for example, if I would go to a summer camp and if there's a piano, because your summer camps kids are playing basketball and sports, and I couldn't play sports and all that I'm. You know, I wasn't good at that, but if there was a piano in the cafeteria or something and I jumped on the piano, now I'm the center of attention, like I started to notice early on. Whenever I touched those keys, I was no longer invisible. I was no longer invisible to anybody. So, you know, you naturally subconsciously lean into that and so the more I leaned into it, the more attention it brought me. But I never thought, oh, this could current, this could turn into something. No, I would just. I was happy enough, just with the attention, because I wasn't getting the attention anywhere else. So that was my, that was my meal. I was good after.
Speaker 1:So what started to happen is, as I continued to grow and then I was also influenced by mainstream music. I was listening to music on the radio of Steely Dan, I was listening to the Bee Gees. I was listening to the Jackson 5. I was listening to the Commodores. So I was listening to those songs and I would take those songs and I would remix them when I would go to church. I was take those songs and I would remix them when I would go to church.
Speaker 1:Like I was eight years old and I went to church on a Saturday for youth church and I went he's coming back, I know he's coming back. I said that Jesus is coming back. He said that he is coming back. You know I was like oh, that's great. You know, all the kids are like oh, that's great, you know. And so it's like oh, they like that, let me go get another one. You know what I'm saying, and so I would. Just, I was.
Speaker 1:Everything I did was in response to what I did. So I never thought there would be so as I. And then I got saved when I was 15. A good friend of mine got shot and killed. He was the good kid. We were out here wild and out being promiscuous, smoking and trying to be just whatever, and when he got killed I knew that my life was out of control. And then that summer of 85 is when I trusted Christ with my heart.
Speaker 1:When I did that, then all of a sudden there were songs that started coming to my head, christian songs, gospel songs. And then, because I was a minister of music at a church, I was playing for churches and I was always over the choir. Well, when those songs would come into my head, then I would go to church and I would try those songs out on the choir and they would love them. I said okay, but I didn't. And once again, again, it was never. I could do something. But no, that never happened. I just loved the local response of people, because the local response for people made me feel not invisible, no, and that's all I needed. But as I continued to do, that word got around in different churches, different communities. How you know, this young kid is good, his songs are good, whatever.
Speaker 1:And then, because I was a break dancer, then I would be up trying to direct a choir. I'd be moving around too much, I'd get kicked out of churches. I'd be sat down in church, I'd have preachers talk about me in church, but I would just. But at the same time, when I was up doing it, I could see the girls responding a certain way. Or people in the congregation like oh, look at that little boy, that little boy up there moving. So it's like it didn't matter how much they set me down, you got what you needed from that. I got what I needed. They didn't have to invite me back ever again. In that moment I got what I needed.
Speaker 4:Oh, wow, even later on, I got what I needed. I really like where you're going and I like how you talking about it, because, as you're talking through the journey and I think a lot of people are hearing and it's something we talked about on earlier podcasts it's the, it's what I like to call the difference, it's the experience and the different reason why we do music in the black church and it's more than just and this is going to sound like what it sounds like it's more than just worship and sacrifice to God. For a lot of us, it is hope, it is a way of life because we have no other opportunity. And to many who see this, you know, especially given the Maverick audience, they'll say but I think, like what does he mean? I mean like some people can't eat unless they go and play keys at church in certain communities, unless they go and play keys at church in certain communities.
Speaker 4:And to a lot of people, you know, especially today, like we're talking back 1980s, early 70s, like you got to put time and context when you're having these conversations, because today that's such a foreign concept. Yeah, you know 2025. Yeah, that wasn't such a foreign concept in the 1970s, in the 1980s. You know, literally musicians. They had to do what they had to do, and even going and working, that wasn't enough. And so when you say you didn't have hopes and dreams based on doing this, there's genuineness in that, because there weren't a lot of people coming out of church becoming stars back then. You know what I mean. But a lot of people coming out of church becoming stars back, then you know what I mean. But a lot of people don't know.
Speaker 1:You know we're having this conversation as people that work in music, but to give context to the audience of what you're saying and why it's believable is because during that time there was a lack of overall lack of opportunity and, at the same time, if I can piggyback on something that you said, powerful is that, because the audience watching this is so diverse, some things that we talk about are going to be foreign to them, are really rooted in culture, and, and I'll give you the best example, and, and I want you to know, um, norm and and and you guys up here, man, is that, uh, that that, that kingdom tour with maverick city was one of the biggest highlights of my career, because, I mean, it happened when I was 52 years old and you know, you know it, there's a lifespan of this and you don't know, like, what's been weird for me is I don't, sometimes I don't know when I'm gonna need to get off the train. It's like you know, okay, what's time to get up now. Well, no, they just go. Okay, maybe I need to get. Okay, well, she wants me to do a feature, well, you know.
Speaker 1:So I've always been trying to figure out when do I get off the train, and so when I got the call in january of january, of 22, about the math two, it's like man, this is crazy, you know, and and so it was an incredible thing. So, thank you so much, thank you, thank you. It was an incredible thing, so thank you so much. Thank you, thank you. It was an incredible moment, man.
Speaker 2:What are your thoughts?
Speaker 1:Hold up, though. I want to talk about this cultural dynamic that he said, that you said so well, I'll never forget, and we all know that the Maverick community, especially at that moment, was very strong in the non-African American community. You had white people, you had Hispanic people and sometimes they over-indexed more than we did, right. So on the Maverick tour, I mean on the Kingdom tour, I stood often in front of a lot of white people. Right, my people showed up and they showed up in groves and I loved that. But there were a lot of white people.
Speaker 1:And I'll never forget there's a song that I do, called Imagine Me, and God gave me this song. I was about 35 years old, a song called Imagine Me, and I remember every night on the kingdom tour when I would sing Imagine Me and I would see the reaction of the white people. It was very interesting that for me they were very introspective, like oh, like, oh, man, you know, you know like it had that type of emotion for them and it was. It was interesting for me to get that type of reaction for them because I was not in that space when I wrote it and so it was like that is very interesting. We had a day off on that tour where there was a concert that we had booked before the tour started and it was a big celebration of a sorority. A sorority booked me in Indianapolis, indiana I don't know if you remember that and so we flew to do this big, like it was thousands and thousands of African-American women, and I performed.
Speaker 1:Imagine Me in front of all these black women, the weeping, the tears, tears, the sorrow that you could feel. I mean women were laying on each other, just crying. And because I've been on the maverick tour now for about a whole five, six weeks, I've been out outside of my community for a while and I remember looking at that reaction versus every night on the kingdom Tour where once again it was over indexing in the non-African American community, and I remember being on stage in front of all those sisters crying like that, weeping, and I said that's where I was when I wrote the song and I started to think about the dichotomy of it all and the resolve that I came with with the different cultures. Black people did not have the opportunity to respond the way that the white people responded. It's because black people were not able to hear.
Speaker 1:Imagine me with their hands up because they were too busy using their hands to wipe their eyes, and so that's the posture of the different communities. Is that one has often been freer to have their hands up where the other community needed those same hands to wipe tears. Wow, and so it speaks to what you were saying.
Speaker 2:No, well you on this. Yeah, it is spot on. I think that was.
Speaker 2:I was reading something a while back talking about the difference in how black people in America and white people in America see God. And they see the same God, but different sides of him, different facets of him, based on who they needed him to be or what captivated them. Right, that that historically in America, white Americans have been captivated by this idea that God is great, you know, like that he's big, that he's awesome, that he's bigger than them. And then the black people in America have been captivated by the idea of God as a deliverer, as a defender, as someone who frees you from the oppressor, so that you literally see that in the music. Right, how great is our God versus? Take me to the king. You know what I mean. Like, how we talk about God and how we talk to God is a direct result of what we've encountered as a people and what we need him to be and what we've experienced him as. And I think one of the beautiful things about Maverick City and about you and on that tour, because I remember being there in these arenas, white people worshiping black people, worshiping old, young, young and I realized this is probably the first time in my two plus decades of being in faith based music where I've seen people be able to come together and engage with God in a 360 kind of way that, like white people could see God from their vantage point but then also realize that someone around the way was experiencing him from a different vantage point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I had been in a lot of live settings and I had never seen that. I texted Norman at one point when we were doing the, when they were doing the it's Time tour, and we were in Nashville at the Ryman and it was Tasha Cobbs, leonard and Katie Torwalt and Taya and it was just all. It was black and white. And I looked around the audience and it's older white people grabbing the hand of younger black people and I thought we don't do this in church. I've been to a lot of concerts. We don't do that. And so I think, to speak to what you're saying, this idea that there's finally on the earth like a real 360 worship experience where we can all tap in. We can worship differently, but we're worshiping the same God and we can appreciate that the person over there who has a different life experience is also worshiping the same God that I am. That didn't happen. There was such a divide between gospel CCM worship that there was never going to be an opportunity because we thought we were worshiping a different God.
Speaker 4:It's crazy when you mention the it's Time moment. I remember the moment. It almost just brought tears to my eyes thinking about. I don't know why it mattered to me so much. It was one of the things. It's time for something God gave me verbally. It wasn't my thing, I didn't think about it. He gave it to me verbally. He said my women matter. I remember it. I remember it spoke so loud to me. I was in the shower. He said they matter. He said they matter. He said all of these tours for men, and men only, I need something for my daughters. And he said it needs to be diverse.
Speaker 4:And the level of tension I did it for nothing, I don't need to make anything the level of opposition that was against it and just the naysay that was against it. And I remember we were in the Ryman. Tamela gets on stage and I see these middle-aged suburban white women trying to shout and then, uh, literally they're trying to shout alongside with you know, when she gets up, and then tasha gets up, she does her thing, tay gets up, she does oceans and you just see the outpouring and they're worshiping together. And what it showed me was that what has always been true and something that we have to always remember is I don't know if the soul or the fabric of the church is the woman. I don't know how you want to equate that, but it showed me that what is in heaven is on earth. We just have to be courageous enough to bring it together.
Speaker 2:So I think Well, and I think it's important even for us to be, for black men sitting here to honor women and honor black women especially.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think even in society right now there's a lot going on where that's not the narrative and that's not the focus or intentionality.
Speaker 2:But, kirk, when you were talking about Imagine Me and how you saw these women responding to it at the sorority event, it's like right, because Kirk has always written music that resonates in that space, especially for black women space, especially for black women.
Speaker 2:And it's interesting to me you know, with you not having a father in the house and then Gertrude raising you, that you still somehow found a voice that was uniquely yours and your relationship with God. But I would probably submit that you are a mouthpiece for a lot of black women's experience with God in America and that's unique because you're not a woman and that's not to take anything away from from Cece Wine and Zolanda and like the black females in this space who are also that. But I think you give voice to a lot of real feelings and it's probably the intimacy you were talking about with Jesus where you said it's romantic. It's like I have no masculine macho, nothing with God. You just were yourself. Yes, do you feel like that's consistent with what you experienced on the road or the messages you see from people commenting and everything?
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, yes, and I would attribute that to being in an environment with Gertrude, which is me and her, or just being very in touch with my own femininity. You know, just in my own vulnerability as a man and I always have I've been very attuned into my emotions and and I really hope that and it makes me very thankful when people say that they can feel that in the music is because I think you should is that, is that the. That's what makes the music music. Music is supposed to be. You know it's, it's. It's supposed to be hospital commentary. Right, that is supposed to be rehab commentary. You know it's supposed to be highs and low, low commentary. You know that the music should have a song for everything a human can feel.
Speaker 4:There should be a song.
Speaker 1:That's the beauty of music.
Speaker 2:That brings me to a really interesting point. I think I've sent you this. I had seen a video on TikTok of a married couple that had just enjoyed fellowship.
Speaker 1:He's so churchy.
Speaker 2:They just had sex. They had sex Well and he's so churchy and they just had sex, they had sex well. That's what that's where it went, because he then rolled over and started singing one of your songs and she said this is what you feel right now. What was he singing?
Speaker 3:smile I haven't seen this.
Speaker 2:yeah, no, it was really, when I tell you the man and she was sort of really she said why are you singing this right now? He said this is what I feel and and I thought, okay, I've never thought of Kirk's music in that way, but I can Me either. Lord help us. But do you get, do you feel like you are the soundtrack to people's lives? Do you understand that?
Speaker 1:when people say that and I don't ever want to think that or even even consider anything like that I'm good with not knowing. I'm good with not knowing a lot lot of things. I think that too much information can can pull away from intentionality and I think that that that there needs to be an authentic, pure place in, in. And you see it, all the time we like like, we always talk about how that big artist there's no other album. They do like that first album because that first album they spent their whole life writing, you know. You know, sitting in the jail cell or sleeping in in the back of the car or going to go to the pawn shop just to buy some food. That's why that first, you know, that's, that's what that Alanis Morissette jagged little pill record, you know I'm saying, comes out. It sells 18 million, you know.
Speaker 1:Or the first Nirvana album, you know, just has this, this, this, this dust on it, you know. Or the first nirvana album, you know, just has this, this, this, this dust on it, you know. Or the chronic, you know, comes out and it's like you know what in the world was dre thinking? But but when you move to the nice neighborhood and you get the. You know, you lose a little bit of the grind. You lose a little bit of the grind and I think that that's for me. I enjoy not knowing the new and I and I and I'm very comfortable with embracing the thorns, the struggles, the stones, because they really do have in a.
Speaker 3:They have a unique ability of keeping the pen full of ink yeah, that's interesting because I remember, when you know some the project we did together, I remember when we kind of were seeing some of the numbers and kind of getting some of the reactions, it was like I really don't want to know that that was your, that was your response. It's interesting that that it was because you wanted to stay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's it's because it does affect you, good or bad. Yeah, it does affect you. You know, like for years, for years, I kept grammys in the in the garage. For years I kept plaques in the garage. It wasn't until we built the studio. And and you know when, when we built the studio back in 16, it just kind of makes sense to put them in there. But for years anybody that knows me they'll tell you all of that crap was in garage closets. All of it is because I didn't want to become complacent, nor did I ever want to become intimidated. You know so. Because I didn't want to become complacent, nor did I ever want to become intimidated. You know so. I just didn't want it to be part of my daily aesthetic.
Speaker 3:So say more about the intimidated. What do you mean by that?
Speaker 1:That you got to live up to that last thing, you know. You know just just that performance anxiety, you know, of trying to live up to what everybody loves and that's like, yeah, what everybody loved, and that's like, yeah, I'd rather just just just take all the stuff and put it in the closet so so that I don't have to walk, walk every day being reminded this is what the last one did, you know. So you know, even even like even looking back on my career, you know those moments were very gross, very, very, very gross.
Speaker 1:I remember the first Grammy that I won I was in the bed at home. I was in the bed at home, I didn't want to go, and some of that is that false, false religious narrative is that? Because a lot of the surrogates were saying, stay humble, you don't need to get caught up in all that. And I didn't want to and I didn't want to make the surrogates, you know, mad. I didn't want to. I didn't want to disappoint the surrogates. Make the surrogates, you know, mad, I didn't want to. I didn't want to disappoint the surrogates. So my first grammy, when I won, I was in the bed, wow what did you do like?
Speaker 2:as you're in the bed, are you freaking out, are you?
Speaker 1:no, no, you don't know how to feel because the surrogates, their voices, are very powerful in your soul how did you overcome that?
Speaker 4:it's a you know what I mean. Like I, I do, I do. I don't remember that time. I was barely five years old. But what I, what, what I'm saying is that, um, at what point? I mean your journey through christianity in america in the 1990s. You know, at that time, I think, a survey said 93, between 90 and 93 percent of people identified as Christians. It was. You know. There were certain things that were just understood back then. You know it was prayer in school. You went to church. You know that was a totally different time. The level of what we call now is religiousness and legalism was at an all-time high. Yes, it was, you know. Yes, it was. You having a little bit too much bass in your music was a demon just walking in the church.
Speaker 1:Right yeah so.
Speaker 4:I ask you this because you parallel, you have been able to come through this journey and, from then to now, still have similar level of relevance, similar level of success, the breakthrough. What was the experience? What was the who, was the mentor that really I guess we use the term deconstructed that uh narrative in your life to where you became, to the point of you begin to live authentically through. All right, I am excited about the grammys. I'm excited my project is getting appreciated. I am, you know, I it ain't my God, but I hope I win. You know, like, how did that? What was that process like?
Speaker 1:Well, now, when it comes to those things, I still struggle, those things are still a challenge for me, but I have resolved internally that when it comes to that space, I prefer that. For me, you know, as Paul says, says these members work at his own soul salvation with fear and trembling. For Kirk it works that I lean the other direction, even if it's a little bit of error, you know, I mean, you know, you know like, like, like, like, even if it has a little, you know. You know maybe doing too much, you know I'm okay with that because I'd rather lean in. I don't want to know, I want to see, I struggle with it, I want to. Okay, you know it's, I'm okay with. Living in that tension is because, as a christian, I believe that true, authentic christianity in this world is lived in the tension. And I believe, if you don't that, that if you're comfortable or if you're depressed, you're living that the pendulum has swung too far, the extreme. I believe that true christianity is lived in the middle of the tension it's.
Speaker 2:I want to see the numbers but I don't want to see yeah, right that I believe that's the christian life.
Speaker 1:that's right in real time. That believe that's the Christian life in real time. That's authentic Christianity. I'm married, but man, she fine, that's authentic. That's authentic. Get away with me, bro, brother, I don't look at anything.
Speaker 2:Bro, bro, I can't help you.
Speaker 1:I don't even know what you're talking about. You're talking another language because she is fine. I don't understand what's wrong with what you're about. You talking another language because she is fine. I don't understand what's wrong with what you looking at. So that is the real Christian experience for me and anybody that don't amen to that it's. I'm not your guy.
Speaker 4:What'd he say, Kurt, he's like brother, I don't know what you're talking about.
Speaker 1:I'm not your guy. I love my wife, but she fine.
Speaker 4:Oh, I'm not your guy. I love my wife, but she fine. I don't understand why that can't be an honest, conversation.
Speaker 3:That's good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't understand that. I don't understand the pastor saying man, thank you, jesus, for all these members. Ooh Lord, I'm so struggling with getting that new Maybach and I don't want to come up and look like I'm Yo, yeah, you're struggling. Church, pay it off. Giving is good. Yeah, you're going to struggle. It would scare me if you never said you ain't got no struggles. That scares me. Get me around people that got struggles. Let me be around some folk that's got some issues. I'm more comfortable there because I know you're going to live an authentic life.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so you prefer the authenticity of leadership to help their parishioners through understanding that what they're going through is real?
Speaker 1:We need models. Yeah, and that's why people love you. Well, some love, some hate. Well, yeah, very true.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think that's good, because a lot of people don't understand your perspective because we have such a perfectionism mandate on our pastoral leaders.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, yeah, and that's birthed out of Puritanism. Remember the early stages of Christianity, when they landed on the soil? It was Puritans that landed here, and, and and. In the name of Puritanism, we were murdering Indians. We were, we were, we were, we were, we were over, indexing on what purity looked like, what it meant, and, and and. This whole ideal is what American Christianity was rooted in. The early church fathers in America were slave owners. Christians, christian men that were building the church in America, were slave owners. Like. What Bible are you reading? What Bible? Do you realize that, just with over the last 20 years, 25 years, the Southern Baptist Convention just acknowledged their historic past and the engagement of slavery in America just 20 years ago. Just 20 years ago, my God, there are planes and cell phones. 20 years ago, and you just saying, I'm sorry, no-transcript. Biblical sickness, sickness, biblical sickness. Biblical illiteracy leads to biblical sickness.
Speaker 2:Hmm, Is that one of the biggest dangers to us right now in society, even as Christians? Is it biblical literacy or the lack thereof? Is it leadership? Is it authenticity? Is it morality, legalism, like what? Do you think are some of the things that are tearing it apart when Norman says in the 90s it was like 93 percent Christian, well, like what happened.
Speaker 4:Well, today it's only about 41.
Speaker 1:I think that there is a strong, academic word, and it may be a little heady and may be absent of the simplicity that sometimes scholarship sometimes requires or allows, but that word is honesty. Honesty. That's what's missing is honesty, simple honesty. Paul was the architect of the New Testament church. No one wrote as many letters, built as many churches as Paul.
Speaker 1:And he's giving you the mandate. He's giving you the syllabus for grace. He's laying out what the church's response should be to grace and the transition of the law is. Because, again, these were jews. And so he's. He's giving you a mandate for this new understanding. Because christianity was such a new idea right, that was in that area of the peninsula, right, it was a new idea. And in the middle of all of these writings about giving you a blueprint of what grace should look like and what sanctification look like, he then says in romans 7, he says but I myself do not have the power to do everything. I'm telling y'all to do that, the very things I'm saying don't do. I still do not, I still struggle with not I'm thinking about. He's saying I do.
Speaker 1:The level of honesty in that that gets whitewashed. And I asked a lot of my theological friends why don't we really shed light on that moment with Paul? He said because historically, especially Reformed theology in America because you know the MacArthur's, the Piper's, you know what I'm saying reformed theology they don't want to give a credence for sin. So because of this desire to not get people comfortable in sin, you kind of downplay those moments that could give liberty. But when you do that, you over index to the extreme and so people feel like I don't know what to do because I've still got those moments that could give liberty. But when you do that, you over index to the extreme and so people feel like, well, I don't know what to do, but I'm still got internal struggles. So am I saved? And a lot of people question their salvation. A lot of people are confused is because we live in a tension that we do not acknowledge and that's why you see this great Exodus from Christianity. That's so good, Because it does not possess honesty. That's so good.
Speaker 4:That's so good. People are so afraid of grace that they over-index to what I would consider legalism, or they over-index toward truth, truth, truth, truth, truth.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Because they're so afraid of people using grace as a trampoline. That's it.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean.
Speaker 4:That's it I think we have. I would go as far as that. We have a. The problem is equally as bad on each side. Yes, I do believe that. I do believe that, as we exist here today, the overall grace, all love, all you know, you good include, I think that community, as is that is as entrenched as a response, and I do believe the word that you've given for this episode, or shall I say this time period, is tension. Yes, I think the tension of the moment, and where that tension, like as you're talking, I'm thinking through my own life. I think that's what most people do when they hear stories and the brightest, most fulfilling moments happen in tension.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, you know they happen in tension. That's so good.
Speaker 4:I will say one thing Do you believe success makes you want to flee tension?
Speaker 1:It's, it's. I think that tension has become so much part of my normal construct. I'm not even thinking like is I don't think about success, nor do I think about tension is I think I just think about just trying to be is. I think that it's the being now. Do I war with success? Do I have battles with failure? Yes, I, I is.
Speaker 1:I understand the dualities and the dichotomies and even the duplicities of it all, but I find myself even in my failures and my mistakes. I'm always trying to find back to the honest of Jesus. Take me back, Jesus, take me back, Just take me back. Let me find my heart back to you. And I believe that in those moments I have learned to rest in. I'm still okay because I still want him. I still am not at a place where I'm comfortable out here on my own. So, whether I win or lose, I'm depressed, I'm up or down, I still find it all of that, Whether, like I'll never forget when the Kingdom Tour went to the Dickies Arena in Fort Worth. Fort Worth is my hometown and it's my first time ever playing in this arena. Like this arena's been up maybe about seven years, six, seven years.
Speaker 1:It's pretty man, I saw it being built, because I'm from Fort Worth so I would drive by it all the time and it's, and you know, and it's huge, and that first kingdom tour sold it out and I don't know if you can leave in my dressing room and just kind of sit in my dress for a minute and just look it up and just say to the lord thank you, I love. You know, because it's such a, it was, it was such a big moment. But then I remember the very next weekend we had to do the bt awards and you know, and we're in this tension, so you know it's, you know, and I'm at the BET Awards, I confronted the dude that owned the network that my son's show was on.
Speaker 1:You know what I'm saying so you know, we finished doing Kingdom and Melodies and then I see this Negro in the audience and I'm like, bro, pull up, we need to talk. You know what I'm saying, you know shout out limit plumber yeah, well, she was my camera shout out limit plumber we gotta get okay, okay I just need to let that breathe did you let that breathe it? Was breathing.
Speaker 3:It's the tension.
Speaker 1:It's the tension, it's the tension it's all about the pause, right? So, so, once again, I encourage songwriters, preachers, evangelicals, evangelists, whatever your call to the kingdom is chase the tension. Chase the tension. You're not salt. If you're not in the tension, you're not salty. You're not salty, you're sitting on the sideline. You're waiting for Jesus to come back. Be salty. Lose something, be laughed at. Lose a limb, get canceled. Mess up some stuff, be criticized.
Speaker 3:Be salty, Be salty, I love that you know. For this side of the room that's like we're both cringing, but I love that you know.
Speaker 2:For this side of the room that's like the. I'm cringing.
Speaker 3:We're both cringing, but I love that. I love that.
Speaker 2:No, it scares me.
Speaker 3:Why are y'all cringing? Why are y'all cringing Because okay to me, they're scared to lose.
Speaker 1:I am, I'm scared. I'm scared Because I think and we talked about this before like the two of you, you all, y'all had an upbringing where, like, what is there to lose? What is there to lose? That's how I was getting ready. Ron tells me that ron, I'm gonna shout out to ron hill manager, uh, junior, barry, gordy, um, um, is that the way that I was raised and, and, and, and not learning more about my brother? Norm is that that fear of losing does not exist in those that were already born lost. So, so, so we don't like, like, like I tell Ron, like I give away so much money that Ron be like, hey, what we're going to do when you retire. It's almost like it's because I'm comfortable, like first thing, norman, when he met me he was like you ain't making no money. He's like I lost so much respect for you because I just thought you had money. He's like I lost so much respect for you because I just thought you had money.
Speaker 1:He said you ain't got no money. It's because I have always wanted to create and I'll spend it all on creating, because Riverside is not far removed from me. If I lost it all, I could literally go back to Riverside tomorrow and be good. I could be good in a one-bedroom trap house. It is so weird how you're not far removed from those. I'm going to be honest with you. There are some times that success is so painful you prefer.
Speaker 4:Yes, Lord, Come on somebody. You prefer Go back where I was.
Speaker 1:Let me tell you something. Yes, lord, I've owned somebody. You prefer? Go back where I was, you prefer? Let me tell you something I would prefer some Roman noodles, my guy.
Speaker 4:Hey, really.
Speaker 1:Oh, my boy, you haven't. Let me tell you something man Success because there's more money, there's more bills, there's more scrutiny, there's more explanation, there's more temptations, there's more depressions and more highs and more lows. When you broke, you only got maybe about one or two emotions. You only got, and that's probably hungry and sleepy. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, that's all you got.
Speaker 4:I always say yes, I always tell people I'm just a country nigga from Sanderville man, yeah, At the end of the day, behind all of it, I'm just a country, nigga from Sanderville.
Speaker 1:You can leave my nigga in too Pause.
Speaker 4:And I think the tension that you speak to, because people always ask you know, the number one question we get and not to say, we follow your motto a lot because it's not directly in your. But I think that one of the missional things behind that JJ and I have landed on, that we just have accepted, is that, like the collaborations and stuff, you know people, oh, why would y'all, you know what, what? How did it glow real? And then you know they cool, they chastise us for, uh, they chastise us for partnering with you, like yes, uh, yeah, travis Scott or somebody, or whatever it's like. I think that what you talk about, about being the sun, go be some salt, go be some light. You know what I mean. And people, that's something people often say. And I came with my sister and my brother. We're going to talk to them later today. I'm going to ask them some scriptural stuff, because they like to always talk about this.
Speaker 4:You know you can't mix light and dark. You know you can't mix light and dark. You can't mix light and dark. You know there's a scientific fact about that when there is light, there cannot be darkness. It's impossible. It's impossible to have darkness where there's light. You know why? Because darkness doesn't exist. It's only the absence of light. So the mere presence of light eliminates darkness. You can't mix them. You can't sit in a room and turn on the light. You can't mix them. It's not like something that can coexist.
Speaker 4:And the reason why I bring that up is because where you send light, darkness will evade. It has to evade or the light has to go off. One of them must accept the state of to go off. You know, one of them must come. One of them must accept the state of the other one. You get what I mean. Like, one of them must come in agreement with the other one. Either I turn my light off or the other side accepted the light that we brought to the table. And the reason why that's important is because, like when it gets down to the nitty gritty right and people say, oh, they do these collaborations for the money. Oh, they're doing it for the fame. Oh, they just want to be more popular. Oh, why do you do these collaborations? Why do you do the collaborations you do?
Speaker 1:The reason why I have just historically done collab is because I've always done them and I've always seen it as an opportunity to be a mission field. I've always seen it as an opportunity to speak a different language. That that that that Sunday morning does not always give the environment to speak is is. I think that there, there, there are some honest things that we have to acknowledge about the aesthetics and the ecosystem that we exist in as Christians. They can be intimidating for people that have not matriculated in that space. How we talk God bless you, brother or sister all the different nuances about church culture can be intimidating for people that have not matriculated in those spaces. A lot of people don't feel worthy and don't feel comfortable in those environments. So a lot of times it is the attempt to try to bring that message in spaces and places where at least there is a chance to see if there's the bigger conversation and the bigger relationship to be built Now. It does not always happen to be built now. It does not always happen. But it is very interesting that because when we become missionaries in these foreign spaces, that there are always eyes on us that are not the same way that eyes on other things like, like, like like.
Speaker 1:In christian community we don't keep our eyes on young couples that are dating the same way we do as a christian working on another.
Speaker 1:You know it's like we we, we compartmentalize the things that are important to us. So if you're doing something that is non-conformative, then we want to be able to make sure that you're doing it the way we think you should be doing it. But we don't do that same thing if a pastor is the CEO. He don't have no board, he don't have no elders or accountability. We don't have those same eyes on his maneuvering with the money in the church with the same level of scrutiny that we do somebody who may be working with another rapper. So once again, we have this subjective way of how we determine what's necessary for the kingdom and what God believes is important and what isn't so. For me, when people call and I get a chance to make a relationship an opportunity, I try to be as pragmatic as I can and try to be intentional. I try to do with a certain level of counseling to be able to try to get a certain amount of wisdom from people, just to see why I need to and and and why I don't.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think that's important for people to know that you, that these opportunities are weighty matters for you, they're not you don't take them lightly Very much, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:I'd love to talk about the collaboration that we did with kingdom Maverick city and you and I'd love to just maybe just start at the why of it and maybe some of your initial thoughts and feelings. Like when you got presented with the idea to do a collab album and a tour of Maverick City, like what were your thoughts? Because a lot of people were wondering why would they do something? This won't work.
Speaker 4:Yeah, let's be honest.
Speaker 2:What.
Speaker 4:Oh you talking about me? Oh no, I was saying we definitely want to hear your honest thoughts. I was a hater. I was a hater.
Speaker 1:Then you go first. You want me to go first?
Speaker 2:Yes, I literally remember thinking why would he do that? Why would he do that? Why, I think at the time and we've talked about this in other episodes before, and my brothers know there was a big cloud of I wouldn't even say mystery of confusion about what people thought Maverick City was and what it was intending to do. What I realized at a certain point, though, was that the people who were doing it were not at all confused. Norman wasn't confused, jj wasn't confused. The artists who were part of it, the writers they weren't confused. They just did not prioritize. Giving me understanding, and that was enough.
Speaker 2:Once I got over myself to the point of what you're saying about people feeling like it's not going the way that I would like to see it go. Once I let that go and I realized they don't owe me an explanation of a business plan or a mission statement or a theological statement, and then I had to challenge myself and look at the fruit. I could look at the fruit and I could see okay, these souls are coming to Christ. Those people don't like worship music, and now they do. Those people didn't go to church, and now they do. These people don't have any gospel music on their playlist except these songs. So are they right or am I right? And where do I need to grow?
Speaker 2:And I bought my ticket because I'm going to the Kingdom Tour, because at that point I started to realize it doesn't matter how I think this should go.
Speaker 2:And I think that was a big thing because, being in the industry for decades, at that point and at an executive level, having managed artists, been an attorney for artists and then at the label, I thought I knew and honestly thought I got to be the arbiter of how a new artist should emerge, and not just a new artist but a force that was going to dominate and change the trajectory of the industry change the economics, change artist development, change charting, change radio, change tour.
Speaker 2:Like no, no. And I think, if my fellow industry peers would be honest, it really scared me because I thought I didn't know if I was going to have a job much longer. And I think a lot of the people in the industry didn't know that you came down when we were about to start the episode and we hadn't been taping yet, and you said to norman, to the dude who you know saved the gospel industry, and Norman said no, no, no, you know, but there's, there's, that was a feeling, but not just saving taking, that was the fear, and so when you partnered with them, it was you're supposed to be saving it with us got it, got it.
Speaker 2:That was the feeling and, and whether that was articulated by the artists in the industry, the executives in the industry or even the fans in the industry, people felt that yeah, because, because we were very much, you know, on the outside looking into the gospel sort of industry.
Speaker 3:We weren't accepted. There were people who kind of had us out of an arm's length and so when kirk agreed to to do the collaboration, it was a stamp, it was like, oh, I'm putting them on game, I'm saying they're next. And for us that was like the first experience like anything like that happening and that was a massive moment, like you said, from your perspective, but for us it was also a moment of man. These are the people who we have been inspired by for so long but have just really never accepted us. And this guy stood up and said no, no, no, no, like I'm doing this. And that meant a lot to us, um, from a creative standpoint, even just from a personal standpoint, of just your belief in what we were doing and saying man, I see God in that we were doing and saying, man, I see God in that, yeah, and and, and, and, and, even at its core level, for me had also to do with I enjoy doing something different.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was different, and so creatively. That always gets my juices flowing, you know. It was a creative, different moment that allowed me to just continue to be excited as a creative as well.
Speaker 3:Do you? This is a funny moment. Do you remember when we were we were like comparing notes? It was a phone call you and I had. It was like we were comparing notes about who we wanted to like mix the album and like who we wanted to like master and all stuff. And I was like, yeah, you know, we got this guy and he did this and and, uh, I went through about five or six names and he said JJ and I said yeah.
Speaker 3:I said, yeah, he go, I get it, but I'm trying to bring the niggas to the party and I was like you know what I love this? Oh my gosh, like I love it. And what I love is for me. I've talked about this a lot but like I have this musical sort of orphan thing in me gospel music, the CCM, and what I felt like the kingdom was a celebration of that. And so to get to that, get to do that with you, one of our musical heroes for me was like oh my gosh, this is amazing. But I love that moment because it was like hey, hey, we're going a little too far, we're going a little too far, but it worked, it worked, thank you you but it's hilarious.
Speaker 4:I look back on it as the and nobody's to the point, to the point. I don't know what is the future, I don't know what the future is to hold, I don't know what the future is to bring. I see it was the culmination in the peak moment for what we were doing. Um, I see kingdom as it was. It was the fullness of a vision that god was bringing forth, and I also. I also see it as a um, turning point and what gospel music would be for the next, whatever time period.
Speaker 4:I think, if you look at that moment, it clearly stamped a ushering in of a new thing and I think you accepted the ushering in of the new thing and I think many of those who did it have felt those effects. And I think one of the questions we were to ask is like how has gospel music changed? Is gospel music even still alive and where is it going? Um, what would you say to those that say you know, maverick city was the worst thing that ever happened to gospel music. You know, some people feel that way yeah some people feel that way.
Speaker 4:Well, how do you feel?
Speaker 1:it's, it's, I don't say anything musical could be. The worst thing that happened to anyone is that anything that's happening musically is because there's a space and there's a demand. If people create content and they are creating creativity and a community responds to it, that that's not the fault of the person that created it. They just created, and so if there's somebody eating what that person created, that means that there's a need there, there is an enjoyment there. So how can you hate on something that this type of this survival system of creating supply and demand, supply and demand those things are laws that are existing laws. Supply and demand those things are laws that are existing laws. They are not laws that have this level of fluidity to them that they come up seasonally. They are existing laws. Supply and demand, supply and demand.
Speaker 1:So if Maverick City is creating something, well, why be mad at Maverick City, be mad at the people that are eating it and digesting? Because it wouldn't be a problem if nobody was eating it. It's only a problem because somebody's eating it. And so since somebody's eating it, then we, then we pay attention to it and we try to understand the best that we can of what is it about that that's filling a diet in people, um, and so not to complain that people are eating. It's because that's what creativity is created for. Why, what? Why we hating on folk eating.
Speaker 1:And so for me is, I think, that what the future holds is that I think the future holds in the diet of what people want to eat now, now. Now, art imitates life and and, uh, the music especially means that we do is so deeply impacted in the things that happen outside of the music Different people's belief systems. There is more of a pluralistic ideal that exists within society. Now we are more of a social society. This is a post-Christian society, and so people's ideals of what Jesus is and what God is is going to be very nuanced, and so people are going to be eating many different things, but I would just encourage people to cook. Just cook in that, whoever sits at the table, that's what we try to speak to.
Speaker 3:You got any young sort of artists that you got your eyes on, that you think are on the come up, that that people need to pay attention to?
Speaker 1:you know, every time I do, I'm I. I am made aware by ron and different people around me that you know it's just really hard to still figure out what that needs to look like, because it is so hard to get the attention for a young artist to get that that that sometimes you don't want to discourage them in that reality too. So that right there is. I kind of leave more in the hands of those that that understand that it's not just about the music anymore, see, see, remember I came in an era it was all about the music. It's all about the music that a dope song is the solution to everything. But now there's so many different components that come into it and so because of that, just seeing a young artist kill it doesn't mean as much as it used to, because of what it takes to get across the finish line For sure. Well, I guess that's a no.
Speaker 3:He wants to be careful.
Speaker 1:It's more of a, I don't know. It's more of a, I don't know. It's more of a, I don't know.
Speaker 4:Even if now, the reason why I say it that way is because, look, I mean, you know we're going to put this out. You know a couple hundred thousand people see it, maybe a million if we're lucky. I mean, even if it's just from a creative standpoint, because I'm the left side of the pendulum. Data need to be good at socials, marketing, tiktok, music, optional. I have begun to swing this way because once you perfect these things, you recognize nothing trumps good music and know the fields, the runs, the ejs.
Speaker 4:They've been telling me that for years and I've always told them give me a bad song, I'll perform you a good song. Right, wait, with good deeds, with good deeds, I'll perform you a good song, and I've been doing that for years. But I've learned now, once your uh metrics and your goals change, you want and you want the top, you need all of them and you need a good song. And then I recognize the good song with none of them will actually outperform a bad song with all of those I've recognized. I've seen it. I've seen it enough times now to concede that, as long as we're doing music, music leads the way. Wow.
Speaker 1:That's heavy.
Speaker 4:I have, you know, I agree to that. Now, as long as we're doing music, music leads the way and I want to encourage those artists I may have discouraged in the past that, you know, may not have been good at socials. You can learn to be good at socials. You can learn to be good at TikTok. You can learn to be good. You can hire people to be good at tiktok. You can learn to be good. You can hire people to be good at that.
Speaker 4:The creative ingenuity god gave you to be an artist and the lens viewpoint perspective you make art from can't be taught like. You can't teach somebody to be taller the creator and I'm just trying to, you know, trying to you can't teach someone that level of originality. You know you can't teach someone to be like Kirk Franklin. You know that's something that you have to be born and it's why, once Maverick popped off, you saw all of these derivatives of Maverick City. None of them had the same level of success. Or because you can't teach somebody something that was the will of God.
Speaker 4:And what I want to make sure that we don't do is if you've noticed somebody that's dope and they don't got none of that, maybe we go highlight them. Maybe we'll pull them up, maybe they're the next sign in the travel. You know what I mean, but I want to make sure that we highlight them because there's not a lot of platforms left for them to be highlighted. There's not a lot of places left for Kirk Franklin to say well, you know, I was on Instagram and I saw Boom, I saw X. I'm not trying to force you to say names. I'm just more so saying we have to be cognizant, in 2025, that this is one of the last platforms where people are going to even be talking about gospel artists.
Speaker 2:How does that hit you?
Speaker 1:I think that it is a reality for the history of, not for the history, but for the future of what? Not well, not for the history, but for the future of, of, of what the music is, and, and and. There's nothing that you can do. Try to rewrite this, this, this truth of, of, of of where things are headed, and just a projection of it, and and so it's. I think that authenticity is going to always win, and showing up as your true self is the only way to survive. Showing up in your true self, being authentic when you have the pen and being honest and sincere when you have the microphone. That's all you can do, there's nothing else you can do. And try to surround yourself with people that are smarter than you, at whatever level. That.
Speaker 2:I think a lot of people would be surprised to know that if they were to sit with you. You're generally going to check on the state of gospel music. If there's going to be a conversation, something you're always going to ask is how's gospel, how's gospel doing? And I think that that's a big thing, because I think once you reach this level of success, a case could be made by some that what does it matter to you? But I think it's interesting that you're always asking how's gospel, who's got it? You always ask who's got it, who's got next? Who are we seeing? And you do, even without commenting on it, you do pay attention to the health of the industry. What do you feel like? Are you hopeful about gospel music right now? What do you feel like? Are you hopeful about gospel music right now? What do you feel like the prognosis is, having been in it in this amount of time?
Speaker 1:I think that it is parallel to my concerns about the faith as well. I have great concerns about the faith in our modern society, and what that looks like is because I think that if it becomes more arbitrary, then what's the foundation and where do we land? What that looks like is because I think that if it becomes more arbitrary, then then what's the foundation and and and and where do we land? It's because, historically, the tenets of Christianity are very deeply embedded in deep requirements and expectations and commitments from us, which we would hear in the music. You know, you know, andre Kratz, you know where there's take me back, you know, you know, andre Kratz. You know, take me back, you know. But if that's arbitrary, then you can take me wherever I want to go at that moment. Dig it. So I think that they're parallel. They're very parallel, that I'm not more concerned about music gospel music than I am about Christian culture. I'm just as concerned about Christian culture as I am about gospel music. That's good. It's because they're parallel.
Speaker 1:Wow, that, yeah. That we can't expect stuff from gospel artists that they're not dealing with and dwelling with seven days a week. Right, right, that's good. It's because that's your pen, that's your ink. Whatever's behind that pulpit, whatever's behind that White House that's the pen. Whatever's happening in that grocery store and the prices of eggs. You know what I mean. All these things are funneling into that pen and what people believe about it.
Speaker 4:Right, that's good. I mean, take me to the king means something totally different if your theological stance or your relationship with God isn't what it's supposed to be. It's what breaks every chain.
Speaker 1:You know, you begin to get into all of these questions. No, no, no, that's a good point.
Speaker 4:They're very parallel. They're very parallel, that's good, yeah. And so if we don't do all we can to make sure that we continue to move forward and we can say, well, why does it have to be King Nobari too? Well, that's what God gave me.
Speaker 4:If he gave you something, you do your thing, you do your thing, but that's what he gave us and that's the mandate he gave JJ and I, and it's built on collaboration, and so that's my heart on the matter who that is and what it looks like, you know, I know it starts here, I know it starts with the home team, and I really do believe we highlight the best of what God has placed here, and I do think that'll lead to a resurgence of consumption, touring, publishing opportunities for so many people currently out here that are, whether they're going to admit it or not, they're struggling to make ends meet in a world where they were really successful before. Yo, thank y'all. We just had an amazing episode with our brother Kirk Franklin. Please, I'm telling you, this isn't one you want to miss.
Speaker 4:I mean, you're going to get to see a side of him and hear him tell his story from a perspective you've heard before, but it really comes to life, it jumps off the page. We answer a lot of those questions that many of you have been asking and we have some perspectives that you may not have heard or understood. But, all in all, this is Mavericks on the mic. I would like to call it season two, but I don't feel like it. We're still in season one, but we're signing off. We'll be right back, but we signing off, bye.