Mavericks on the Mic
Mavericks move differently. They are known for disrupting the status quo and rewriting the script. Mavericks on the Mic uncovers the “Maverick Moments” that have shaped the lives of our guests. From personal stories of risk, unexpected pivots to moments of faith and resilience, these stories will inspire you to see your own Maverick Moment — the one that changed everything, even if no one else knows about it.
Mavericks on the Mic
Travis Greene: Remember When God Showed Up?
This episode is a masterclass in obedience, legacy, and faith that doesn't fold under pressure.
In this powerful conversation, we sit down with our brother Travis Greene — GRAMMY-nominated artist, pastor of Forward City, and the pen behind “Made a Way.” He unpacks the pivotal year of 2014, the miracle that changed his family forever, and why he said “yes” to starting a church before he had a hit record.
This pod isn’t a highlight reel. It’s the behind-the-scenes story of a man who chose obedience over applause, ministry over mega platforms, and has watched God multiply it all. We talk about stewarding pain, carrying miracles, building the next generation, and the weight of representation as a Black man called to lead both in church and culture.
We cover it all: from recording music in closets, to pastoring through betrayal, to fatherhood, loss, success, and what it really means to say “yes” to God in every season. It’s not a branding move, it’s a lifestyle rooted in memory and mission.
This one will mark you. Don’t miss it.
00:00 – The Year That Changed Everything: 2014
03:15 – Saying Yes to Pastoring Before the Music Took Off
06:10 – Made a Way: The Miracle Behind the Song
12:40 – Faith Was Built in the Hospital, Not the Studio
18:00 – Maturity Through Suffering: Why Pain Grows You
23:09 – Don’t Forget: The Power of Remembering What God Has Done
31:51 – Travis’ Near-Death Experience as a Child
37:30 – God's Goodness Doesn’t Mean Easy Outcomes
42:45 – Ministry vs. Performance: What Keeps You Grounded
50:00 – Parenting, Culture & Representation in 2025
58:15 – What’s Wrong With the Church? And How Do We Fix It?
1:04:00 – The New Album: Gritty, Missional, Unapologetic
1:14:45 – Why We Need Black Men in the Home Again
1:20:30 – Betrayal & Leadership: Lessons From the Pulpit
1:28:15 – Are You Praying for the Wrong Thing?
1:34:30 – Maverick Moment: The Call That Changed His Career Forever
#TravisGreene #MadeAWay #FaithOverFame #ChristianArtist #ObedienceOverOpportunity #BlackVoicesOfFaith #ForwardCity #GospelMusic #MiracleTestimony #PurposeOverPlatform #MavericksonTheMic
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If there's a book to be written on my life, that's the.
Speaker 2:You could call the book 2014, because it's the most significant year you know in terms of just major things happening, Did you say, okay, God, I'm saying yes, but like how am I supposed to be an artist now and do this?
Speaker 1:The interesting part to the story that a lot of people don't know, unless you're close to me, is 2015,. You know it takes off and I get offered a job at almost every mega church in the country 2013,.
Speaker 3:he says yes to the ministry 2014,. He and his wife have a difficult pregnancy that burst the trademark song Made Away.
Speaker 1:I never forget that she said your mama got some stories. She prayed you back to life, your mom.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 4:Man, it's a quiet down moment. I hear this guy say Clay, it's Norman. What's up? Everybody? Welcome to another episode of Mavericks. On the Mic, I'm JJ.
Speaker 2:I'm EJ. I'm Norman.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 4:I'm.
Speaker 1:Travis no.
Speaker 2:I know, I just wanted to do that.
Speaker 1:I just wanted to do that. I just wanted to do that. I can't just jump in there like that he said no, there's a way cut you off, so no man happy to have you.
Speaker 4:You are gospel music icon, the brother in law of Norman Jumphy we don't say brother in law, that's some white people stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a whole lot of stuff right there. They're my brother man.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you had a whole lot of superlatives Okay.
Speaker 4:Is that like a thing? Is that like y'all agreed on that Y'all don't call each other brother in law?
Speaker 3:That's just more of a white thing.
Speaker 1:Y'all look more formal a white thing Y'all look more formal. I don't call my stepdad.
Speaker 3:I'm sure if you had a stepdad you'd call him stepdad.
Speaker 2:You call him what His name? I call him my bonus dad.
Speaker 3:What is that Bonus, dad? That's even a lie. Man, my sister grew up with proper decorum. If you have another dad, he's just dad. Your other dad, he dad too. You ain't no disambiguity, you know what I'm saying? Your other dad, he died too. You ain't no disambiguity. Dad, brother, won't do all that stuff. Have crisscross applesauce, it's just what it is, bro, you know. Won't do no dilutions, I love it. I love it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean so. I mean Travis, people knew you know you from music, but then I think there was a very timely shift into pastoral leadership and a lot of times I feel like artists kind of make that shift and then they fall in love with that or it consumes them in a way that they can't do the other stuff anymore. But I feel like you've always been able to do both very well and it's really more like an expansion of who you are. Is that intentional? Was that like the plan, or is this just like this how it was gonna go? Nah, none of it was intentional, really matter of fact.
Speaker 1:Um, it's funny how god does things for me. He had me say yes to pastoring a year before.
Speaker 1:Uh, I even, you know, recorded, made a way and stuff um so 2013 is when, ironically enough, in atlanta airport, I just feel like this burden to start a church never wanted to do. It gave a list of reasons why it was a bad idea for me to be that candidate. God graciously countered all of my excuses and warnings to him that this was a bad idea and told me that I would be able to do it. The way that he placed in my heart something new, and especially in our region, it's kind of unheard of the style that we present the gospel, the way that we dress the whole nine. So that vision came in 2013. Then in 2014, my wife gets pregnant and we have that miracle my first son and I write, made a way record made away on norman's birthday, november 8, 2014, and then, uh, it's off to the races. So I think it's.
Speaker 1:I think the lesson there is is giving god a yes before he gives you a yes right I think sometimes, um, because this prayer for music is a lifelong prayer, this time, 30 year prayer, and I I kept getting not yet, not yet, not yet. And it wasn't until I gave god a 2013 yes for the local church that he gave me the 2014 yes for global music.
Speaker 2:So wow, yeah, that. So the encouragement, then, is full obedience, right, not like obedience for the thing that you want to do, but like actually like yes to everything you say yeah, because there's protection in that.
Speaker 1:Had I not done that, like have I not made an agreement with god in 2013? Yeah, there's no way I'd be in south carolina, you know, but did you?
Speaker 2:ask the how? Like did you say, okay, god, I'm saying yes, but like, how am I supposed to be an artist now and do this like? Did you ask for the blueprint, or was it more like going?
Speaker 1:I'll show you yeah, it was definitely going. I'll show you because I that's what I'm saying I had already been sitting on it. Yes, yeah, so it's 2013. It's not till. You know, I think like be uh, probably like mid-2014, that I signed with rca at the time and then we're, then we do the live recording, um, the end of 2014 and then 2015 is just fire. You know it took off, um, but I my mind was already made up. So an interesting part to the story that a lot of people don't know, unless you're close to me, is 2015. You know it takes off and I get offered a job at almost every mega church in the country.
Speaker 2:To be like worship pastor.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm talking about the top the church. Yeah, the best of the best. And I told them all God told me to start a church. I'm moving to South Carolina. What was their response? Everybody's like you're crazy. Like. What was your response? Everybody's like you're crazy. Like what, bro, do you know? Do you know who this is? Is that you know? Not in like a private way, but almost like you?
Speaker 1:know you are gonna turn that down no, like even my mentors is like yo man, like you know, you could always do the church thing you can do that when you're 50. I got calm, you know the best of the best.
Speaker 3:So talk about now, because now I'm like, not that I'm intending to I think you're rushing through some things because it's a few points in the journey that if you skip by, you don't get the fullness of the story. So, like 2013, he says yes to the ministry 2014,. He and his wife have a difficult pregnancy to the ministry 2014. He and his wife have a difficult pregnancy that births the trademark song that we all know him by not intentional, but made away. But you know, without you got to understand the journey of faith, you know, and how it all ties in, how it all brings us to today. So talk about the journey of jace and having jace what that was like, um, how that story fits into the beginning of the journey yeah, 2014 is probably, you know, if there's, if there's a book to be written on my life, that's the.
Speaker 1:You could call the book 2014, because it's the most significant year, you know, in terms of just major things happening. Um, I turned 30, um, in 2014, the beginning of 2014, uh, which already allowed me, you know, it just dealt with some, I think, unspoken anxiety in me. At that point, I would have outlived my dad by two years who died when he was 28.
Speaker 1:So and that was always like on my neck like you got to get whatever you're going to do, you got to get it done because 28 is coming. So I'm 30 and I could breathe a little bit. I'm like all right. So my wife throws me a birthday party in Charlotte. And two, three things happen at this birthday party. That's just at my 30th birthday party. One we announced that she's pregnant. At my 30th birthday party one, we announced that she's pregnant. Um. Two, we announced that we're moving to columbia from charlotte, you know, next year to start a church. And then three, norman comes up for remarks and says hey, man, this is, this is bc, right, this is yeah, yeah, yeah, we don't know where he was the night before, norman, right. And he comes on stage and gets a microphone and says I mean, you could tell it was kind of an out-of-body thing Because he was just like yeah. So when y'all start the church, me and Blair are going to be there.
Speaker 3:Pause. Why? Oh, I don't know.
Speaker 1:And it wasn't like a we're going to be there at the first service. Yeah, yeah, Like we're helping to plant this thing, we're going to be there, be there.
Speaker 3:Why. It was a God moment. You know what I mean. Like you know, you get into the moment I was praying. We was all supposed to go up and pray. I don't think it was a month. Know it wasn't a. I mean I can tell you I didn't. It wasn't me because I had no intent to follow through with it. You know what I'm saying. It's like this is a good thing to say right now, you know what I'm saying. Like I'm not a church boy, so it's like you know.
Speaker 1:Ain't nobody holding that to At that point in time.
Speaker 3:I don't have any of that in me. You go to church Me and Naomi talked about it. You go to church and black people know how to do church, act church, say the right thing. I'm just saying what I feel. That's kind of how, that's what I felt, that's what the action in me was. So ain't no, why.
Speaker 2:So you didn't feel like it cost you anything in that moment.
Speaker 3:Oh, no, it didn't cost me nothing because, like I'm saying, I'm not a church kid. So you know, like a church kid, no, you know the pastor going to come follow up. I don't know what no court group is. I don't know. I never heard of this stuff.
Speaker 2:I just said I'm going to have to go back, Like that's all I'm saying, Like I'm going home after this, but what ended up happening then?
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, I don't even know how long we're driving from atlanta to columbia weekly, um, and he wasn't doing music stuff yet right nah, this is pre this is pre that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is pre that. Um so, then, um. So then 2014. So we announced we're pregnant. Uh, she go in a few months later to get just the gender. We're just trying to get the gender in an envelope. We're going to do a gender reveal. You know that's hot at this time. It just people just started doing these gender reveals. You know, back then it's like, oh, we're gonna, we're gonna get in on this. You know, we're gonna do a gender reveal. And when we're there, like the sonographer was like yo, this is, this is bad. And.
Speaker 1:And so my wife walked in perfect health school. You know, she's in dental school, um, last year and, uh, her final year of dental school. And so they're like, yeah, you're uh, yeah, you're getting admitted and um. So, long story short, um, god just performed a miracle. She laid on bed rest for for seven weeks and god, uh, resealed her womb. After it, literally, her water broke at 21 weeks, literally, um and so, and our prayer was god reseal her womb. And just miraculously, he did. The um high-risk specialist said in 20 years she's never seen it before and um, but it was doing this. And then so she's in a bed for two months. She have jace at 28 weeks. He's in the NICU for two months. So we spent a third of that year of 2014.
Speaker 1:That's why I say that year just marked me. I learned God in a new way. Every single day in the hospital the only thing I listened to was KCJ's version of Fill Me Up, every single day. I know every little part of that song because it was the only thing that I consumed. But then one day, while we're in the hospital, you know, I went because their, their mom, lived in augusta and that's where um jackie was in dental school. And so one day I was like I'm just gonna go to the house real quick, freshen up. And while I was there I just literally in the shower, I just started hearing this song. I got out, got my acoustic, just started playing it. I called her on facetime and sung it to her, made a way, and that's the story about it, you know so that's landmark like this yeah, yeah, it was, it was, it was a significant moment.
Speaker 1:Oh, it was a. It's where I think she and I um probably the most we we both have, um, you know, our spiritual journeys, but I think that in our adulthood was something, and together that was like a marker for our faith.
Speaker 3:You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Like where we built stones. It's like, oh no, no, no, no, no, we know God. We know God he didn't get all in this. Talk about theories or whatever else you know.
Speaker 2:This is what I know. No, I know.
Speaker 1:I know power. That wasn't the doctor.
Speaker 1:It's responsible for us having a 10-year-old walking around and so it marked us and not knowing what the record would do as a matter of fact, the label didn't either they signed me off of Intentional. They didn't know and I told them. It's funny, I told them at the time Joseph Burney and Uncle Jeff rest his soul, and all of them, uh, I told him at the meeting. I was like yo, like I, um, like I do this, like I, this ain't, this is not my best work, it's a good song but like no, I I write, I produce, like I do this.
Speaker 1:It's like okay, okay, okay, and I said I'm gonna do a recording. So, um, they came down to charlotte and literally norman had on suit. He didn't know how to dress at recorders. He wore a blue suit with brown shoes Like a full suit. He's the only person in the whole venue with a suit on. He looked like Mafia A whole blue suit, navy blue suit on and he was there and the player was there.
Speaker 1:It was so funny because I know I remember that, norman, that's how you showed up. I have a story, I have a story for that. But keep going, keep going. No, but that's how you showed up. It's so funny.
Speaker 1:It was moments like that and other moments even before he was like in the music, where he just had this thing, you know, like we're cool. I wouldn't say we were like super, super close, but it was cool. Um, he respected me because I came and saw him. You know, in college that probably one of his lowest seasons, I went up, I came and saw him. You know, in college that was probably one of his lowest seasons. I went up to DC and saw him. So he had, like this, just respect for me. So we were cool.
Speaker 1:But I remember and there's a picture of it that night and I'm like super nervous and I'm sitting down in the back and I got like my head down. I think I might have had like one of the inhaler things up to me. Like it was just like bro, it's time, let's go. You know what I mean. Like he don't know nobody there. Nobody there know him. He's jackie's brother. That just happened to be at a recording with a neighbor blue suit on and he managing me at my first ever recording so you know, it's just it's funny how god does it?
Speaker 4:yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, it's funny because when I met you, I also met norman at the same time. This this would have been 2016 at Big Church Day Out in England.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I remember.
Speaker 4:I don't know if you remember this, I don't know if you, but we were in, y'all were. You were leading worship and I was just standing in the back of the room and I hear this guy, like it's a quiet down moment. I hear this guy say play, play.
Speaker 4:What is happening? So I walk around on the side it's Norman, so I'm thinking, okay, that's their process, like he's the MD. Later that night he's telling somebody I don't know. I don't even know what middle C is, I couldn't tell you what an A is. So I'm like what is this guy doing? But you know it's funny because he joked about. He's like I just knew what my brother wanted and I was telling him to play but, anyways, it's just when you said something about the blue suit and the brown shoes I was like, oh my god, it's so normal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure so the two of you you and your incredible wife, dr jackie green now are starting to be really equipped. At that point, right, I mean, god was giving you all some of the stuff that you would need.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Did you know? I mean, you couldn't have known how badly you would need some of those moments of connectivity, right Because you all are in ministry together.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like, do you look back at that season of 2014 now and see like, oh, that's where we were tethered for this ministry, because it feels like God almost like completed or perfected a part of your faith journey for the next season?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was. It was a big part, I think, more than tethering, probably just like maturing Right. We were really close from like day one. So 20, uh, or the 2007 when we met, it was just magical like the day one. So we always had like a special thing, um, and even you know, we had a long distance relationship. So that created really our whole relationship was built off of communication and not really physical stuff. So it was a very pure organic, intellectual relationship, like really getting to know each other in a deep space, like just staying up on the phone for 10 hours what secret have you not told anybody? You know that type of stuff. So just learning, learning, learning each other.
Speaker 1:So we had all of that history and, at know, at this point in 2014, we would have been married um over three years. So, um, well, I think close to three years into our third year. So you know, we had history, we had context, um, but I think it just matured us. I think, and I think nothing matures you more than suffering. Right, when you're desperate man, you grow up. You grow up from like Santa Claus faith. You grow up from God. You know I'm only serving you so that and you shift and you walk with god to start valuing and being appreciative of little things. One thing that we did was we had uh, because it said, man, the way our technology is, if you can get I think it was like 27 you can get like 27 we feel really good about his chance of survival right um 27 weeks. And so we had these.
Speaker 1:Um, they're literally like rubber bands, um, you remember those and we had different colors though, and I think we had well, I think we had maybe seven of them. So we, we had whatever, I think we had seven of them, and so her and the uh, all the nurses, it became a thing like norman blair, like like friends. And you know friends, you know different people would send pictures like praying for Jace, around you know the country, Different artists, just different people, People you know, and our family were just supporting and so and I bring that up, because every week we would remove a rubber band and man, when you like, it's one thing to like be grateful for the full manifestation of a promise but to me that's lazy praise.
Speaker 1:Right, the red sea is split, it's closed, the army's driving. We made it. Anyone can praise god there. I think, man, if you could praise him for keeping the water up while you're walking through, and for us, the removal of the rubber bands was like man, another week you kept us and we're grateful. Wow, man, you didn't have to keep us. That's so good.
Speaker 2:Another week man.
Speaker 1:And I think it just matured us to not skip. It's funny when you say, man, we're skipping so much of the story. Yeah, but I think we got, you know, whatever I wanted. But, man, another day you kept me.
Speaker 1:You know it's funny. I'm reading a book. I'm reading a book that I've read several times. It's called the Jesus I Never Knew and he's talking about the author is the older white guy, but he's talking about the difference between the praise and the desperation desperation even in church and even in songwriting of blacks and whites. And he says it stems from history, that slave songwriters were singing songs like swing low, sweet chariot. And you know it sounds. It sounds like a funny, it sounds like a slave song you know I mean, but coming forth to carry me home there.
Speaker 1:Their hope was in a future home period. There was no hope for the present. That's right. I have some, you know. I've watched my dad get shot in this cotton field, my mom get raped every day and I've been beat to a bloody pulp. I don't have any hope for being successful on this side of eternity. My only hope is in eternity. Eternity, my only hope is in eternity. And so the, the songs and the desperation of the, the black culture, when it comes to god, it ain't casual, you know. That's why somebody can be man slinging dope, gang banging fam.
Speaker 4:They in trouble, they like man lord jesus, I think, I heard, I think I heard my grandma say this before hey dog, hey dog, jesus, dog, jesus.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean. Like so it's embedded in us because there is a level of desperation and I think success as we know it has watered down that desperation. For God, it's nothing like knowing you need them when you can afford everything you want, when your health is perfect, when your life is what you imagine, then you know, I think I'm perfect. When your life is what you imagine, then you know and I think I'm a priest this Sunday, about the Beatitudes, which is Matthew 5, it's Jesus' most famous sermon, but he's going through blessed are blessed, are, blessed are blessed are. And but the people who he's saying are blessed. It's like he's flipping the script. He's not saying blessed are the happy.
Speaker 2:He's saying blessed are those that mourn.
Speaker 4:He's not saying blessed are the happy.
Speaker 1:He said blessed are those that mourn, that's right. He's not saying blessed are those who fight wars. He says blessed are the peacemakers, blessed are the poor in spirit. And luke just said it straight up. He's like no, I already say blessed are the poor. And it's like god has a special place in his heart for those who are desperate for him, because there's a level of a prayer, of, of zeal, of passion, that passion that gets watered. And that's why he says, like Jesus literally said, man, it's easier for a camel to make it through a needle than it is for a rich person to get into the kingdom. And what he's talking about is not that he's against stuff, but he knows how quickly we replace him for stuff. Sorry, I don't know why I took that story.
Speaker 3:No, I love it. No, that's good. I told you all my pass was coming on today. I think that what he's talking about especially when he's talking about taking the bands off and the thing he didn't hit was that when he wrote the song Made Away, the way hadn't been made. He didn't write Make Away, he Will Make Away. He definitively stated Made Away. And it's a defining characteristic and kind of the way that they move and the way that they walk. It's with a uh, unparalleled or unexplainable certainty that god is gonna do it. And that's the uniqueness, I would say, of jackie and travis is that, like they have this knowing, you know, like Michael Jordan had that, knowing when he was on the court I'm going to win. You know, steph, I'm going to make this shot. You know there's this knowing that they have, and that comes through Like I'm not going to say what it comes from. What does that come from? Like, how do you get to that level of faith, that level of assurance?
Speaker 1:I think it's resisting amnesia. I can't forget, man, I won't allow myself to forget. That's where it came from. So you know I remember mom said something the same thing when I was at in-laws.
Speaker 1:but your mom said something. Oh, I call her mom too, but I'll never forget. This is another powerful moment that happened at the hospital. Uh, she came up there and we were in deep desperation and it just happened. And jackie's laying there and she's looking at her daughter and she said these words. She said our family's not used to this type of warfare. We need Mama Green here. I never forget that. She said your mama got some stories. She prayed you back to life, your mom.
Speaker 4:That's right.
Speaker 1:Man Shoot. Alright, sorry, but I think, like she even recognized, that um faith and the knowing um it really comes from um man, like history with god, history with god and um not saying months, and I have my own story and seeing god, but I remember.
Speaker 1:But I remember that moment. I remember she was like yo, we need Mom Green. Like Mom Green, she done seen. Like this, ain't Harris warfare? Like this, some green stuff, and so like we fighting for a green legacy, like you got the seed and I remember that. I remember my mom come up there and I remember Aunt Vern coming up there and declaring life and we're unwavering. But I really believe that level of faith is produced by not forgetting. Like not forgetting. It's funny when you read the Bible and you get to and, and even Deuteronomy, it's almost like God talk about something else.
Speaker 2:It's definitely, we get it.
Speaker 1:Like he is so redundant. It's like, okay, you brought the Israelites out of Egypt. Like how many times he did like, yep, yep, yep, hey, tell this story. That's right. Hey, moses, tell this. And then even Moses, when he's charging and raising up his mentee Joshua, he's like, hey, make sure you tell them this.
Speaker 1:And it's over and over and over Right, because there is nothing like history that builds your faith. It's why they would put stones out, because what's going to happen happen is, and those stones will build a monument, an altar, even, of saying, hey, don't forget when we crossed this river, don't forget when god slayed this, this giant, don't forget when god dealt with his army, don't forget when. And so what happens is they know from generation to generation, or even from month to month. If you don't keep the testimony alive, it'll water down and you'll think that you did it yourself. You'll, you'll, you'll fool yourself and and thinking travis, you built the big church.
Speaker 1:Travis, you didn't do nothing, fam. You had a speech impediment and was pronounced dead. That's what you were like you like you were fatherless. You didn't make the basketball team because you was too short and you got a girl that's way out of your league. That's your actual resume like fam, you ain't what, no, you ain't built like no man the musical talent that I have.
Speaker 1:Everything that I have has been a gift, a loan, even from god, and my only responsibility is a steward. I don't own anything. I'm a manager of everything he gives me. The bible says the earth is the lord's and the fullness thereof, and I think the only way that I keep that alive in me is man. I can't, I won't forget, I can't be in his presence and and act like I don't remember what. I can't just get so casual I was. I just shared this past Sunday a story that happened. I was at a conference and, um, you know, know, I just, I just kind of made it into like the cool preachers club, right, I, I, no, I'm being serious, I'm not even trying to be funny.
Speaker 2:It's a club.
Speaker 1:Yeah it's a club and you know it's a frat and so, um, you know I was coming up and everybody knew me for singing, which you know. If you're already known for something, it's very hard. You know, michael jordan, good luck at baseball. We just want you to dribble the basketball, you know I mean. So, like travis just saying, shut up, you don't know how to preach, you know, no one cares. No one knows that I'm actually educated in theology. No one cares. No, get a thing, post a.
Speaker 1:Post a music video guitar yeah, quit posting these preaching clips. Who don't want that? Get up there and do a spin move, you know. So, um, so you know I had I had an uphill battle with that of like no, there's more to me, right, there's more to me. And so I just probably over the past, you know, three years, kind of broke through and I got some really cool looks on some big platforms. That kind of, you know, in man's eyes solidified me as like a bona fide speaker. You know, when Jace put you up and Ferdinand put you up, mike put you up, joe olstein put you up, and you know, you know people start noticing. So I started getting those looks and and then, um, so I started getting invited to kind of be in the cool club you know, and some of the group takes and some of the conferences and stuff.
Speaker 1:So something happened to me recently. I was at a conference and, um, I mean, these guys are're talking about the most famous preachers of our generation. You know I love them all and this is not. I want to make sure that I'm very clear. It's not a knock and it's not me throwing shade, it's not me, none of that. This is literally just a pure thing that God did to me, right? So I'm standing there and the worship team is up there and I'm like you know I'm also.
Speaker 1:You know, when you're in a new space and you're trying to figure out etiquette, if I'm in your world, there's an etiquette in your world. You know what I mean. If I show up, I'm like yo, like what I'm supposed to do, you know what I mean. So I'm looking around, like, okay, this is etiquette. You know, don't do nothing stupid, you know. So I'm like alright, everybody nod their head, nod their head. You know, worship, this is cool and I'm like so. Then I was just like lift my hands. I was like man, and you know, I was like okay, I lifted my hand, one hand, two hands, cool, cool, cool. And man, the spirit of the lord, spoke to me and convicted me and he was like yo, what's that?
Speaker 1:what you doing yeah, he was like did you ask me what I want? And I was like yo, like I, I'm worshiping here. Like, did you ask me what I want? And I'm like well, you know what do you want? He's like I want you on your knees. So this is just to paint the picture for you. This is Anthony Edwards standing amongst you know what I mean? Like Braun Katie, you know what I mean. Like Braun Katie, you know what I mean Like. These folks are bonafide. They got chips, they got banners. They ain't no scrubs Like. And Anthony like doing something. So I just get to my knees and I'm just like, and when I got there, it was almost like a portal opened up and the Lord started speaking to me. He was like boy, don't you ever forget? Like, don't you ever get too cool for me? Like what, no man, don't you? No, fam? Uh-uh, you forget to worship. I forget how to use you Like, don't get it twisted. What makes you special is this posture.
Speaker 1:It ain't your performance, it ain't your eloquent preaching. Oh, you've grown as a preacher. Oh, you recognize now that ain't what I look at. I don't see trophies. I could care less. I got. I walk on gold, the thing that you posting about. I walk on fam. It ain't nothing to me. So like don't get a bit and don't forget. And not in like a, not in like a Tupac way you know what I mean but really, and like a loving father, like nah, you know what we do. Yeah, man, like I want the real you, I don't want all the other stuff, and so it is a. I say that to say like I'm not superhuman. I have moments where, whether it's because of a setting, or it's because of a season, or it's because of pressure, or it's because of stress, where I may, you know, shift, shift, downshift to like chill, and then God, in his graciousness, is quick to remind me that, like you never graduate worship, and one of the things that fuel that is memory so don't forget you mentioned, and it's really one of the first.
Speaker 2:I don't want to assume that everybody watching this knows your, your testimony from when you were young and what God did and how your mother prayed you literally back to life. I remember hearing it early on when I first met you. I don't want to assume that everybody watching it already knows that. Can you talk about what that was, because I do think that that's a pivotal part of your ability to remember, like your whole life has been remembering and knowing God to be miraculous yeah, yeah for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was four years old, we were living in germany and, um, I fell four floors out of a window, um, over there, and my mother, um, came and they told her I was dead. And, uh, doctors that out there they couldn't resuscitate me, so they pronounced me dead on the spot. And my mother, you know she picked up my lifeless body and just started screaming Jesus, jesus, blood of Jesus, and miraculously, god gave me back, you know, my life. And as we were, they kept me in the hospital for a few days. As we were leaving, I told her I was like I have to tell you what happened. And I told her I was like I have to tell you what happened. And I told her I remember falling, but I never hit the ground.
Speaker 1:Right before I was about to hit the ground, there was a man with a big hand that caught me. It's the best way I could describe the encounter. I told her I couldn't see his face, but I heard a voice and it said do you want to come home with me or go with your mom? And I was like I want my mom. And he's like, okay, next time, uh, you'll come with me, and so that that's when I was four. Um, and when we talk about you know remembering, people ask me often like do you remember that encounter? And that truth is? I mean no, just like glimpses. You know, barely. I'm four. You know I'm 41 now, so that's 37 years ago. However, my mother didn't allow me to forget.
Speaker 1:She just always talked about it Always. She'd still talk about it. My mom is preaching a sermon. She's still going to talk about it. My mom I came up in the 90s, so it was testimony. We'd get embarrassed. At every church we'd go to, She'd just pop up.
Speaker 1:She'd be like I got something to tell Stand up, to just pop up and be like I got something to tell Stand up, yeah, just like. Pop on one of them old songs, put your time in payday coming after a while and then testify. So I never and again. But it built in me a knowing like I know God is real. It's not a question about it. Like I know, I know he's real and I just want to. I want to please him with the life I have, you know.
Speaker 4:That's incredible, that when I want to please him with the life I have you know, that's incredible. That's amazing. Yeah, I was thinking even about when you mentioned about Moses telling Joshua. I think he even says it this way. He says to remember, to remember.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that yeah.
Speaker 4:I love that. I kind of feel like just even the way that some of the stories you're telling, like about Jace, even the church, I feel like there is an invitation for the miraculous on your life. I don't know if you, I don't know if you feel that way, if you've sensed that like, maybe talk about just how you're remembering but also your relationship in history with god like invites miracles, because I mean, I feel like every time there's something amazing that's like god did this, god this in your life. Maybe just talk about that.
Speaker 1:Well, the funny thing about miracles, man, is that miracles are only exciting when they happen. Deliverance isn't something that you look forward to unless you're bound. So the prereq to a miracle is a desperate situation and I think that's more the marker. The prereq to a miracle is a desperate situation and I think that's more the marker. You know, I've been in a lot of just dire situations where it's like God, if you don't come through, you know we short. But what that does to your faith is that you see a consistent pattern of him coming through. But I don't want to miss that. There are times that God does not do it the way you want. Because again, I think we probably keep referring to this what Norman said if you get too ahead of the story, you'll just miss key ingredients.
Speaker 1:And the reality of my story, much like everyone else's story, is that there were outcomes, even in the need of miracles, that I didn't get. You know prime example a year after I'm prayed back to life, my father at the age of 28,. A year after I'm prayed back to life, my father at the age of 28,. You know, I'm five then has an aneurysm on a Sunday morning. That's it. The devil taunts my mom and says where's that power? Now You're able to pray your son back to life and look at your husband laying there lifeless. Look at him. They're going to pull the plug. This is it. Where's that? Where's your god?
Speaker 1:so, she so, and you know I'm five years old, I had a funeral for my dad, watching him go six feet in the ground. And you know the after jace. You know, yeah, jace, victory, victory. The next baby after jace we lost in a miscarriage. You know, um, it wasn't full term but you know she miscarried.
Speaker 1:And so you know there are seasons in your life. I think the full story is that there are mountains and valleys. There are. There are victories and there are there are seasons in your life. I think the full story is that there are mountains and valleys, there are victories and there are hard seasons. Man, I don't want to call them losses or defeats, I think that's giving the enemy too much credit, but I think there are some hard seasons. There are valleys, there are things which you don't get the outcome you desire, and so that's also matures your faith to understand that, even if god doesn't do it the way you want him to, that doesn't change the consistency of his character. God is god. God is god, joe. If everybody in your family died, he's still god. If you lose your crib and everything in a hurricane and your flesh far from your bones, he's's still God and he doesn't owe you anything, right? God owes no man, nothing.
Speaker 2:Not even an explanation.
Speaker 1:Not even an explanation. Yeah, he don't owe you your next breath. He don't owe you the health of your family or you. He don't owe you gasoline in your car. God don't owe you nothing because he's sovereign, he's self-sufficient. He existed before we were here. He, he's sovereign, he's self-sufficient. He existed before we were here. He don't exist when he's gone. Where we're going, he's got, and so I think that's a very important thing to learn, um, especially in this generation that want to tick, tock microwave god, that just want a quick yeah and then we get so and what happens is the danger in that is that you're one disappointment away yeah from turning your back.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know you want your one. My granddaddy didn't make it. I ain't never going back. You know I lost a job. God must not be real. He broke my heart. God must not be real. It's like no, he's God right. Life happens and I think it's something that I had to learn, and I learned very quickly at an early age age that life happens. I'm not guaranteed anything. Be grateful for every little thing. Be grateful for every day. Like man. Like man, you get to look at an 8-year-old and a 10-year-old. Your dad never did.
Speaker 3:Wow.
Speaker 1:He never got to see you at that age. Like you know, my baby is about to turn 6 in two months. Like I got to experience his whole kindergarten my dad was going before I started kindergarten, you know. So, not not taking life for granted, and I feel like many of us treat life like we treat, we treat it so casual, like we know.
Speaker 2:You know it's gonna be there and we know y'all, just know my mama gonna be there?
Speaker 1:do I? Do I Like you know, like I just know, this is going to last, is it so? It's really like man taking appreciation, having gratitude in your heart, enjoying what God does decide to bless you with. But you know, it's okay to have things. It's not okay for things to have you, and the only proof that it doesn't have you is your willingness to lay it on the altar. Continue to be generous, continue to be open and just continue to want to please him. I think it's our greatest gift to God.
Speaker 3:Something you're talking about is really mature For a lot of especially I say Mav-type viewers. You got a lot of people.
Speaker 3:That are what we would consider newer in the faith and the concepts. Even the level of faith that they was on is very mature. You know you have people that say things like you know, whatever your my sister's gay God can't hate gay. You know, I can't believe he would hate gay people. Or you know my brother died in a car accident. There's no way God is real. It's these simple things, you know, just these humanistic ways of viewing God. And one of the things I learned when I first started attending Ford City it was just something I always reconciled, I always wrestled with was in all things, give thanks, all things you know.
Speaker 3:And how we define good isn't the way God defines good, you know we would look at the j situation, say that was good and the miscarriage and say it was bad. But both were good to god, right?
Speaker 3:yeah it's like hard to sit here and say, like there's a woman watching this and she's, what do you mean? My miscarriage was good. How would you explain that? You give it to like, how would a you know it's a woman, why there's a? You know there's someone watching this who's a sibling, struggles or whatever. And then you know, and we don't give thanks for the struggle, we give thanks for the, the redemption, the overcome or the lack of, because there's a journey, there's, there's something that takes, but explain that to us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's great, great question. Yeah, I agree, we're not good enough to define good. First of all, good is not a word like to describe. You know, good is not like a characteristic of God. He is good, like that is who he is, right, right, it's like. It's like trying to rip my manhood from me and say, well, you, you like a man. No, I'm a man, right like you. Got you kind of good. No, I'm good, like I am what good is. Yeah, I am what good is. I was reading, uh, we're going through our bible series at the church where we're specifically we're calling it red letters because we're specifically talking about things that, uh, words, that the word said things that jesus said.
Speaker 1:I was reading through luke and it was so funny to me. He was walking and he's on his way to Calvary and they get this guy to help him carry the cross and as he's carrying it and I saw other times where he would quote Old Testament, but I don't know how I missed this he's beat up. You know, he's not even recognizable as a human. You're talking about injustice. He's headed up to Calvary.
Speaker 1:The Bible says in Luke there's some weeping women and he turns to them and starts quoting Hosea. He quotes a passage from Hosea and it's like first of all, I don't. The only thing I know about Hosea is Gomer, his wife. I don't know one verse from Hosea. I cannot quote one. I know who he was, but I can't quote nothing from the prophet Hosea. Jesus turned to start quoting beat up. At a time like this, at a time like this, you want to talk about Hosea. I was reading the Bible and when I read the Bible I'm prayerful and so I'm like I'm kind of conversing, you know, in my spirit, with God and I'm like yo, this is like Jesus is really like full of the word and I really felt like almost like. I know he didn't, but it felt like God almost wanted to like backhand. Slap me, what do?
Speaker 1:you mean he's full of it, he is the word. He literally said it John 1. In the beginning was the word. The word was with God. The word was God, like the only thing that could come out of him is what he already is. And so when you talk about goodness, that's who God is Like. It is literally he breathes goodness, he is goodness, he is good.
Speaker 1:And so the thing about sorrow or the thing about grief, it's not an indictment on its goodness, it's the fact that we're in a broken world. And if you want to get mad at anybody, don't get mad at God, get mad at Adam and Eve Like. You want to slap anybody you can pimp, slap them in heaven. They don't mess everything up Like. There will be no miscarriage, there will be no you know, no sudden death, there will be no cancer, there will be no heartache Everyone for these bobo heads eating the fruit, having a conversation with a snake, like what a loser, right. So it's like if you want to get mad at somebody, get mad at your great, great, great to the millions of grandparents, because they don't want to mess this up.
Speaker 1:First of all, the other thing is that God is so good. He's too good to cause evil, so he doesn't cause bad things to happen, but he's so good that he can use bad things, and that's the beauty and sovereignty of God. Paul wrote in Romans 8, 28, that all things work together for the good of those who love the Lord and are called according to his purpose. So if you love the Lord and you're walking out the purposes of God in your life, then even the bad things that happen to you, even your regrets, even the lowest moments, has to somehow, in God's infinite ability and wisdom, work together in your life for good. And that's just my trust and belief.
Speaker 1:There are a lot of things that have happened. There are a lot of funerals I attended. There are a lot of heartbreaks. There are a lot of hospital visits. It was like man dang. This doesn't feel right. This just feels wrong. Why him? Why he had to get in a motorcycle crash, why she has had to get in this car accident? Man, like it's a lot of horrible people out here. She's like the greatest person in the world. Like why? Why is our friend going? You know, and you just have to remind your soul that no, god ain't the one who made this driver hit him. But god is going to use the story of his life and he's going to bless his offspring and Jet and April, and God's going to still work this thing together for good somehow, and we're not smart enough to know how he's going to do it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you said something even that stood out to me. It was you said you learned who God is, not when the miracle happened with Jace, but during the times that you were going to the hospital and doing the bands, and I thought that was a very important distinction, not on the other side of the victory, but through the trial.
Speaker 1:Life is not about the other side man. It's not. It's not. I don't like it.
Speaker 2:I don't like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the first five books are not about the other side. Exodus, leviticus, numbers, deuteronomy are all about the journey. Right, and that tells you a lot that how I handle the wilderness matters more than how I handle the promised land. Of course you're going to turn up when you get the outcome you want, of course, of course everybody celebrates at graduation. Who doesn't have fun at the honeymoon? Did your engagement, please, God? Of course, of course, when you get the x-ray in your favor.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're going to come to church and testify, but do you have a praise when, every time you go, you get a report you don't want, because that's what we were faced with in testify, but do you have a praise when, every time you go, you get a report? You don't want, you know, because that's what we were faced with in the hospital? We kept getting reports that we we didn't want. We had naysayers, we had doctors that was like, yeah, I know, we had nurses who the doctors are trying to tell them hey, don't do that wristband thing, because you're giving them hope and y'all know this baby ain't gonna make it. That's an actual, true story no way, so can't.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, I could sing in front of thousands made away. Now, I think when it meant more to god is when I was singing it with a guitar to just my wife and trusting him like that. That's real worship, the journey that dash in, you know, on your, on your tombstone. That's that's where really matters. I think it matters. I think true character is not just revealed on a mountain, but in the valley. Let me say it even better I think it is revealed on a mountain, I think it's developed in the valley, and if you skip the valley, that's going to. You know your character is going to take, you know your gift is going to take you somewhere. Your character can't keep you.
Speaker 1:So I think, the valley is just important. I think it's where we meet God, I think it's where we strengthen our faith, and I think it's where he really develops something in us that'll last.
Speaker 2:I think that's that maturity piece too, and I remember just the trajectory of your career in music and the shift into pastoring, and acknowledging just what felt like a weight to me, not like a heaviness, but just like a gravity, a sobriety, um, that I saw on you, and it wasn't that you hadn't been that before, but it was that it was just. Travis is different now, and it's easy to say, oh, because he's a pastor now. It wasn't that, though, and now I have language for it. Even in having this conversation, it's like, oh, I get it. Yeah, he was matured, but there's, and I think for a lot of believers and Norman mentioned, like the audience of you know that might be watching this that are newer in their faith, are still developing in that way.
Speaker 2:You know, it's like, you know, the Hebrew boys went into the furnace and they said, hey, god's going to deliver us, but even if he doesn't and I, even in my own faith, often struggle with that, like it's like no, god's going to deliver me, and if he doesn't, then I don't know about God.
Speaker 2:But that's not what they said Even if he doesn't, we still won't bow down to you and we still are going to believe that, and that comes from a conviction that I think is a gift from God. It's the grace of God to have it, but it's something to fight for. It is a conviction to fight for. So when you say, like the children of Israel walking through the Red Sea yeah, egypt was right behind them they weren't rejoicing yet because for all they knew, the water should part it and now they're going to get to come through too, they had no idea that he was going to crash the water in over the enemy. All they knew was a natural phenomenon is happening. We better run and try to stay ahead of them. But you don't know what God's provision is going to look like, or his goodness in that moment is going to look like. And I think there's just such a beautiful faith maturing component to that that like, hey, it's okay to acknowledge I don't know. I don't know what this, what's what this?
Speaker 2:is going to turn out to be. But once you realize that you're on the other side to say god's going to come through. But even if he doesn't and I think that's just I'm always striving to be in that place it seems like you're so there, you know I think the beautiful thing that you said even there, that I mean you said it, but in the fullness of what you said.
Speaker 3:They didn't even know the water was gonna stay up that's right you know what I? Mean it's like, as you're going, you know you let you do it, but they don't even know that it's gonna stay up. And I think many of us wrestle, kurt carter, many of us wrestle in that tension of knowing.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 3:You know and not knowing, or desiring and doing what we don't desire, and I think the beauty of what we're discussing now is he really just said it's that the integrity you need is made in the valley, and if it's not made in the valley, what you are will be exposed on the mountaintop I think they feed each other right, in my personal opinion, um, and this is this is not, uh, this is not linear.
Speaker 1:I mean, this thing right here is very nuanced.
Speaker 2:Good god, almighty, I mean, you could go.
Speaker 1:That's 20 different there's a, there's an hour conversation per denomination about what. What has attributed to this mess, um, um, I think one of the things is we, I think it's the, it's, the it's again. I'm talking about the black context.
Speaker 1:I think, man, we've done a disservice by not raising our kids in church, by not teaching them the ways of God, by not living a consistent life as best as we can. You know, the perfection is out of reach, but I think consistency is attainable and we haven't done that. We've told them one thing, but we do another one. We tell our daughters, you know, hey, save yourself to marriage. But you know, as a single mom, everybody her uncle coming through every other week spending the night. So you know, I think our inconsistencies have helped to create this thing, this narrative in their mind, that surely that can't be real. Because I haven't seen an example and whenever I have heard anything that countered the faith I have, I'm surrounded, I was my, I'm blessed and I hear what you're saying. There's a generation that don't have that testimony. Um, but I, I mean, I have so many examples around me, the way I was raised that any excuse for rebellion was was eliminated at a very early age because, I saw the hand of God and I saw consistency being displayed.
Speaker 1:I think what has happened to its point. When you talk about success and money, I think it definitely has deflated our desperation, and desperation is a reminder of your need for God. But I think another thing that is very critical. That's happened and this dawned on me. I'm doing a dissertation on a very interesting subject, but the actual subject is the perception of church leaders regarding the impact of clergy infidelity.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think I saw you put that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so it's regarding clergy infidelity and it's in how it's affected church growth, commitment trust, church metrics, right, congregational trust, but specifically through the lens of church leaders who witnessed clergy infidelity. Now, one of the things that I bring it up because one of the things I brought up that very interesting is a guy said in the church he was in that when the pastor fell in infidelity, he said it had two different levels of impact. Right, he said the older people were more forgiving. The older people were like, yeah, man, you know he messed up. That's still our man of God. I hope he get better, you know. I hope he, you know, you know, take a couple weeks and come on back to the pulpit. The younger people was like yo, I don't want to do with god. Wow, right, and so I share that as an example. Again, the younger people was like I don't want anything to do with god got it.
Speaker 1:This is what god is about. I'm good got it other people's like, and I think there's several things that speak to that. I think one older people have history with God, have their own relationship with God, so the fragility of a man is not going to change that. Young people don't have that context. But I think another thing that is even more important is that the young mind is still being formed and it's still inquisitive and it's still being formed and it's still it's still inquisitive and it's still being shaped.
Speaker 1:So what I see, I believe and what I believe becomes my reality, and I think that's one of the things we're facing, even in addition to, yeah, uh, success and money and this and that in our community we also just have not seen. Um, we haven't seen great models man. We haven't seen great models man.
Speaker 3:We haven't seen great models. We haven't have the models actually changed or has information become more plentiful?
Speaker 1:The models have completely changed.
Speaker 1:Expound on that, yeah, the hero, the only person who mattered in a black community, in civil rights, was preachers and barbers. Okay, you know, coming out of slavery In slavery, the preacher was the only one who could read, so that was. He's the only person of actual status. You come into civil rights. It was the barber, the preacher. And then you have some people who broke through your, your sam cooks, to the world. Uh, you know so, but it wasn't. Yeah, how, and I'm not. This is not a knock against hip-hop. I actually I'm a big fan of, I love OutKast. That was my boy, you know, back in the day.
Speaker 3:He doesn't know any hip hop artists.
Speaker 1:I know OutKast I don't know any current.
Speaker 2:I was wondering who he was going to say. So when he said OutKast, I was a little bit shocked. I don't know any current.
Speaker 1:I don't know any current. I met DaBaby two weeks ago at and I was like cool man, great to meet you. I was literally about to say my boys love the song you did on Space Jam.
Speaker 4:That's a little bit of that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I found that out, so I'm so glad I didn't say that.
Speaker 2:Same last name baby.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I have no idea who. No one is.
Speaker 1:It could be a famous one of these guys could be a famous rapper. I have no idea. But I'm saying, is now the role models have changed back then there? Back then there was and I'm not, I want y'all to hear me correctly I'm not saying preachers are all that matter. You know, I don't want to be taking out our context all barbers, all that matters, but I am saying there was a level of etiquette, there was a level of sophistication, black success of like man, I want to. Ooh, I want to carry a briefcase one day. Oh man, I want to own my own car, I want to, you know. And so that is going.
Speaker 1:So now, the average child in the school, there's only two things that look successful LeBron or the baby. There ain't no in between. They're my only two references for success as a female. It is Nicki Minaj or it is you know whatever. And these are only so now because of media and social whatever. And again, I'm not knocking none of these people God bless them all but I'm just saying, if that's my aim and these lyrics are my education, then I think that this is the path forward and this is. This is the only thing I'm consuming and it completely shapes my world and my reality, even if it's not my reality. So I think that's another thing that has just happened, you know. So everybody trying to be something because they think this is the only path to success we talked about that on a couple episodes like the?
Speaker 3:uh personification of black wealth and how it shapes and molds the minds of people, like you know.
Speaker 3:Uh, we're talking about like at the? Uh, I see my nephews that came out to my daughter's birthday now they wear like little chains, right, and my best friend, kobe, his son, he had like a chain that he got off Amazon. It's like you're talking about affluent kids, suburbs, parents doing well and they want to wear chains and it's just like it's not. I think, as we continue to matriculate and become successful, being true to the things that we embody, like being a pastor, wearing a chain don't mean nothing. It's just, it's a way of expressing who we are and it's our culture and that's not a negative thing and I think that we would be remiss to not give that example from various verticals, like a pastor doing it, a ministry leader doing it, a basketball player doing it. It's it. It allows it to become normalized in our culture so that it doesn't shape the way a young black man is viewed uh in in a negative light simply because of some stereotypes someone sees associated with a particular profession.
Speaker 1:And I think that's why the onus is on us. Yes To, and I'm doing something active, but I mean actively, and this goes beyond social media. I'm actively and I'm not. I haven't done it enough. So I literally got a text about it yesterday, but I think last week I went to a middle school um in the city and talked and then my assistant was like oh my god, now people haven't seen the polls they're blowing up. Every school in columbia wants to come by. How many are you willing to do? And I was like as many as my schedule will allow, um, and in the past that was. I would be like, uh, like I need, I don't really want to you know I did it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I did it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's been done.
Speaker 1:But I have a burden. And when I was in front of those kids majority of them, you know, either black or Hispanic and I'm in front of these kids and the I don't want to be explicit because someone may watch, but one of the kids was supposed to be in a leadership role at the school and the thing, the clothes that the kid had on, I was just like man and you know, as a. So they just told me what the environment was that they were in and and then me just thinking I don't see myself as people see me, and I think that's a good thing and you know, those are normally close to know that about me. I don't, I'd literally forget until somebody. I'm still shocked when people walk up to me in the airport and I'm just like, who me like? Oh, hey, you want to? Oh, you want a picture? Okay, it's still, I'm still not even. I thought it's years, I'm not used to it. Um, so I forget how me coming to that school like it is, and one of the teachers told me there's like this is the closest taste. They're gonna get up like they've never been out of the city, you know.
Speaker 1:So the kids are like what car, what car you drove here. You know, I mean, I happen to have some spare shoes in my car. I was like what size you wear? I gave the shoes away but they're just like, oh what, how much that necklace cost.
Speaker 1:Who all famous? Who all famous in your phone. You know, you know they just they just pumped up. Yeah, because, and and the reason I'm sharing this is because and the reason I say it's on us is because we have to redefine the ways to success, the ways to being able to provide for your family, or to build a future, or to have legacy, or their only model is literally what they see on YouTube. So if I line all those kids up literally and say what do you want to be when you grow up, none of them will want to work in a service-like job. None of them are occupants no way. Ain't not one of them about to say nurse? Ain't not one of them going to say I want to be a? You know, anything that can add value to a community? Everybody, rapper Hooper period.
Speaker 1:And then you're in eighth grade. You're in eighth grade. In eighth grade, you know if you're going pro or not. Somebody told you by now it's 2025.
Speaker 2:They told you in sixth grade You're either tall enough or you're not going to be that.
Speaker 1:Somebody told you already, but anyway, yeah, I think that's our responsibility to help show.
Speaker 3:show them a different way I mean we have to know it's a real reality. My mom want to play basketball you know what I mean that's what he want to do today right now really yes, yeah what do your boys want to do?
Speaker 2:well, gabe wants to be an egyptologist of course he does he wants to. He wants to dig up things in Egypt badly like. He badly wants to go and like, discover, like more mummies them nerd genes are crazy strong.
Speaker 1:It's really strong. Them dog on nerd genes is crazy. Well, you know cause.
Speaker 2:Janice and I met at a math and science summer camp, so you were going to be doing this Like. I mean, you're just what is it.
Speaker 1:I found my calling.
Speaker 2:Dad. I found him a shirt that says future Egyptologist. He wore it yesterday around the house. I love that. That's what he changed into Wow, but to that point he's eight.
Speaker 2:That's like he just thinks that's what I'm gonna go and dig things in egypt and he wants to go to egypt badly, like, can we go to egypt? But it's to that point. It's what you see. Yeah, you know he was watching youtube videos of the great pyramids, understanding that you know the, the engineering of them and the construct of them was a wonder, like we don't know how that happened without the machinery that we have today, and he was fascinated by that, like at age four.
Speaker 2:So because he was rehearsing that and seeing that, and then, you know, there would be someone popping up saying I'm an archaeologist I'm a he's like okay, well, that's an option but I think for a lot of people especially like you're talking about going to schools if all they see is are certain things, those are the only options, and the mind can only dream what it has, an idea that exists. Wow, it's true. And so I think the more to your point that we start to see things. I remember when I was younger hearing about ken chanel and him being a ceo at uh, at american express, and I thought I didn't know that a black man could do that. Wow, I didn't know that a black man could ever be a ceo of american express. So add that to the list if I want to wow. Or or Barack Obama, you know people were always. What does it mean? It means like you don't know what it means because you've never not had the option.
Speaker 2:This is the first time that even I, as a graduate of a law school working on Wall Street in New York City, ever thought that I could even be accomplished enough to be a president. Because how could that ever have happened with my skin color? That was always. The message was that is a barrier and restriction, so your dreams can only go to exit four geez, you can't complete the road trip.
Speaker 2:And so when people say like, well, why is this about race? It's like. It's not even about race. Like, just because things have racial implications or cultural implications, don't make them about race. Yeah, that's too easy for it to be. Yeah, lumped in that way. It has to be the nuance of it, which is man. Your cultural dynamic is such that you either saw things or didn't see things, and that has either propelled you or restricted you.
Speaker 1:That's literally the probably the driving like part or point of me even getting a PhD. It's the only reason I'm doing it. I was asked like you don't need, like it's not going to change your life, it's not like it's going to add another opportunity to you know or whatever, and it's literally 120%. The only reason I'm doing it is representation because I want to have to be called Dr Green no. I'll never want to be called that. I actually never want to be addressed there's only one doctor.
Speaker 1:She's a real doctor and I never actually want to be addressed as Dr Travis Green. It would make me like, even if people did it like, no, I'm still. Pt at church. I'm still Trav around the boys. I don't want to be addressed by. I just want the kids to know who it's possible to have colored hair, to wear jays yeah, to have a nice watch and to have a phd I think that's the leadership piece you're talking about always.
Speaker 2:That doesn't exist as much anymore. We don't have people who will, who will take on a burden, just to show the future generation is possible.
Speaker 3:That's how we got here right.
Speaker 2:That's right, exactly, that's how we got here.
Speaker 3:People took on burdens on our behalf. So I don't know if y'all saw the clip of Flo J Flo J, sorry for pronouncing her name. She plays for LSU, has a podcast Really dope. But she gave up her seat on the plane to an elderly African-American woman and it came to be that the African-American woman was a political activist for equal representation for female athletes. Wow, what? Yes, literally. And the woman came back she said brings me to tears to remember. I fought for her to have the opportunity she has right now. She gave her seat up, that's crazy that's crazy, that's crazy
Speaker 3:that's beautiful man that literally just happened. I think we forget that sometimes. You know, I mean and I think a lot, you know a lot of the way on, you know, along, uh, our journey in this music thing a lot of the backlash we received was from not respecting the past. Yep, you know what I mean. Not, you know, they dissed us so we dissed back and I think sometimes you forget the thing you said, like it didn't matter what your elder said to you. You know, you had to show them respect. You just said they don't understand what they're talking about, but you sat there, you listened. It didn't matter what your elder said to you, you had to show them respect. You just said they don't understand what they're talking about, but you sat there, you listened, and there's a level of arrogance that has come into the next generation and also there's a level of arrogance you take on once you've become successful. That's right, and I think there's an air of humility and meekness that we're all responsible for arcing back to, to make sure that we get back to the place, to where the gospel is at the center.
Speaker 3:It's computer, and I talked about this on one of them, where I said what we've lost is that Christianity used to be an ethnicity in our community. People always say what do you mean black American culture? Black American culture used to be Christianity. It was a church. It used to be Christianity. What do? It's just a church. It used to be christianity. Hey, what do you mean by that? You know what I mean by that. You respected your elders.
Speaker 1:It was yes, sir, yes, and I go to the side and drink the bud wiser, and I go to the other side and smoke. You go behind the tree. Everybody know what those four cousins doing over there with the weed. Everybody know what your uncle's doing over there. But you ain't about to be be on Grandma's point with neither one of them. That's right. That was a love.
Speaker 3:That was a respect, that was an honor.
Speaker 3:Now Grandma's there rolling up with you that was an honor, that was a reverence, there was a appreciation, there was prayer before everything. You was going to church. Whether you wanted to or not, you was getting on that van. That is what it was. Our ethnicity was Christianity, and as we got more educated, as we got more well off, as we were no longer as desperate as we were, whatever, as we began to have children, younger and out of wedlock and whatever these things were we lost that ethnicity.
Speaker 1:That needs to be rebuilt.
Speaker 2:And I think we're missing accountability. Yeah, I mean that was a big part when you talk about the community element Like we belonged to one another as a people.
Speaker 2:Yes, the person down the street had the authority that she had in your life Absolutely, just because y'all lived down the street Absolutely. So get in the house. Absolutely. That was enough. And everyone was an auntie or a missus or a ma'am or a sir. Because we belong to one another and there was a sense that we do. We don't have that as much anymore. It's kind of like who's gonna check me? I get to, you know, chart my own course, be my own person. You don't get to tell me what to do. But there was a time where and I think largely in the civil rights era especially where they needed one another. We needed to be together because we needed to watch each other's back. We needed to be able to look down down the street and know we belong to one another. What's going to happen to you is going to happen to me. What, what burns over there is going to burn down here soon, and so I just think we've lost that sense of belonging to one another as a community too.
Speaker 1:Us not being at the house and us not being in the community has definitely hurt us in a major, major way, because that is the example, especially for the up and coming black man, is the example of how to treat a woman.
Speaker 1:The example of being a gentleman. And I'm not saying that the men were faithful Even some of our heroes weren't faithful, right, but there was a level of respect that was still there. You know what I mean? There was a teaching. I just remember when we were coming up in church, there were little things that they would teach us Like hey, you open that door, you give her your seat Just those little things. That man, these kids, never even heard about. And it's foreign, Like what do you mean?
Speaker 3:We was talking about this earlier about. Well, kurt was talking about his story of you know how he grew up without a dad. You know, you and I, it's very similar. You had a dad for a few years you know bless brother y'all but jj and um ej. They both grew up with their dads the whole time. Wow, yeah, both of them two-parent households, and just the uniqueness of that makes a difference, but you can see it in them. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:Like you can see it I know I'm like what do I, what do?
Speaker 3:we do it's just it's, there's a, it's a search your son wants to be yeah that's why no, you can see them. There's a, there's a. There's just a difference. There's a calmness, there's a meekness, there's a sureness in the identity when you grow up in the house with a father it's a, it's a softness.
Speaker 4:You know, but you know what I mean. It's kind of like I don't know, I don't know how to describe it other than that, but it's, it is I think that's a beautiful thing.
Speaker 3:As we're talking, I was thinking about the things that could change. Of all the things we're talking about, I don't think we'll ever go back to the time of being a one community.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 3:America's become too diverse. It's too bifurcated. We're spread across a lot of ideals. It's too bifurcated, you know. We're spread across a lot of ideals. I don't think. I hope God sends a revival so powerful that we go back to 93% of our nation considering themselves Christian. Statistically the chances of that are just very low. But I pray and I hope that happens.
Speaker 3:The one thing that could change and that we have, you know, the wherewithal and motivation and ability to influence directly, is men being back in house and you're seeing a increase in that more. You know the rate of single motherhood is decreasing. The rate of marriage is beginning to increase again. Like all of these, all of these things are beginning to swing the other way on the pendulum and I think a lot of that has to do with media is covering. I do believe a lot I had to do with a brock and michelle getting elected, seeing a black family. You know I do believe a lot of that do with kamala being elected. Hopefully I pronounced her name right. You got to see certain representation. Those things define a country, for sure they define a country. They define LeBron being married and faithful. You know, whatever the case may be, those are just Steph Currys of the world. There's a lot of examples of successful couples that our youth get to see modeled out in life and I do believe that has a positive impact on what we see today.
Speaker 1:Massive, massive. The Huxtables Family Matters, you know God bless his soul. But the Huxtables Family Matters. You know, like these shows, fresh Prince, were massive to our community. You know the one thing the Huxtables was the first black couple that you saw. That's what every other black couple that you saw. It was successful. Every other black couple was coming up Rough Side 227, barely Making it Hood. You know, like Sanford and Sons the pole, you know, selling some stuff out that backyard. You know, like the Huskies was like no, we're actually professional. Cosby did do for our community, was they really? They displayed something that our eyes have never, we didn't know was possible, you know.
Speaker 1:And then you think again. You think about a new generation. What's, what's been their model up to? I love the example you gave, but, man, that the gap leading up to that and even after that is and I don't want to. I know we're connected to a lot of people, so I'm not trying to blast anything. But some of the tv shows that just show, you know, women wilding, you know, and that's supposed to be cool. Or show men dogging women, and that's supposed to be cool. But another thing about christianity is what has always fueled christianity the most is persecution that's right, that's literally how it started.
Speaker 2:Spreading period, yeah, when I think biblical persecution yeah, that's right, that's literally how it started. Spreading Period, yeah, when I think biblical persecution, that's, I think what.
Speaker 2:I think the closest parallel is like real, you put your life on the line, not livelihood but your actual life, and I think Now that's not to say that Not getting canceled Right, but I do think a time is coming, like, do be clear, in our Western, western, cozy society. I do believe that a time could come where we face that level of biblical persecution, and it may not be in an organized way, but it may be a little bit more understood, a little bit more understandable because, as you're starting to see, um, the political space creating uh tension and and really continuing to fuel tension between this kind of conservative christian right and and the liberal left. You know it's like, yeah, all it's going to take is a is a match at some point, and persecution is going to look way different in the united states than it ever did.
Speaker 3:I think the match has been lit. I think if you evaluate the last election, you see a rejection of a move toward left-foot politics, absolutely. And America saying brother, this is a Christian nation and if this the Negro, it's almost like you know, I used the foolish things of the world to confound the wise. If this, who I got to use to bring it back. And I ain't going to get all into no dilly-dally dance or whatever, who right, who wrong, who up, who down, I ain't doing all of that. But I can say fervently you look at the exit polls, you look at all of that, and this ain't no political podcast, but the data is data. You can argue with the data all you want.
Speaker 3:America said we want to go further way, further back to where we were than where we were headed and I think that has a lot to do with a um move away from christian ideals and they want to move back to them. And I'm not saying this president gonna take us back, I'm not saying the other president wouldn't have taken us back what I am saying is that down ballot america said we want to go back towards ideas of family, christ, community, christianity and these things, and not towards me, me, me, me. You know what I mean. My identity is this it was more we, we, we, that's how I saw it.
Speaker 4:That's good. Yeah, I don't. We don't have to park here long, but I do want you to tell us a little about the church for city. Of course we gotta get back on I don't know how we got on this point I don't know how we got on this talk about being we can go anywhere.
Speaker 3:I was literally thinking we talking. We have the whole. I said of all the ways this podcast. I would have never guessed we would have got in here and talked, but you put four black men together that are intelligent.
Speaker 1:We're going to talk about the way it affects our lives, what affects us? Yeah, yeah, that's good, but we want to hit the book.
Speaker 3:We want to hit the church, we want to hit the upcoming music, we want to hit all the firebrand things that we need to hit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, church is vibrant. It's vibrant, it's going great man. Um, pastoring is interesting. Um, our church is called forward city. Um, our church is called forward city. Um, and uh, it's in columbia, south kilauna, and we're enjoying it, though you know it's, it's uh, it's not, it's not easy I heard someone say uh, he was, he was giving an, he goes.
Speaker 4:I've been a pastor for 10 years, which means someone's been mad at me for 10 years.
Speaker 2:Do you have people mad at you all the time? What, yes? Absolutely Tell me this, though. So, as a pastor, what are they mad about? Are they mad about the things that you do say or the things that you didn't say from the pulpit?
Speaker 1:I rarely get a lot of. If anyone gets upset with me, it's probably not something I said on the pulpit. I'm very clear and I try to be very Holy Spirit led when I'm up there. I don't play around with God's mic, so I'm not about to be super cavalier. I joke a lot, so I make a lot of jokes. I make a lot of racial jokes, political jokes, any kind of joke. It's going to be 10% comedy special every time. That's my preaching style, so that's going to happen.
Speaker 1:But as far as like I don't think a lot of people get offended with stuff that I say across the pulpit, because even if I say something strong, I wrap it in compassion. I think if people get upset, they may. What kind of leadership decisions, um, that they don't have full context for? It's probably where more more people, if any, get upset. But we're talking one out of a thousand might get an attitude. So it's not. It ain't the masses.
Speaker 3:What do you feel has helped grow your leadership as a pastor the most? Like what part of pastoring or leading, whether it be staff, whether it be, you know, just going through the process, whether it be new expansion what has grown you as a leader?
Speaker 1:Betrayal has grown me the most. Wow In gratitude from people who have grown me the most, ingratitude from people have grown me the most. I think it's taught me, and just it taught me, that people are going to be people and their response is not my responsibility. I think early on I put a pressure on myself, like almost wanting to be a puppeteer, I guess in a sense of like well, this equals this, so this should get this response. And it's like people like no, I'm not Pinocchio, I don't have to be grateful.
Speaker 1:I preached this. You should be doing it. It I don't have to say thank you. As a matter of fact, I can be who I want to be and sleep who I want to sleep and forget you. So you know, that's just a part of it, though. You know you get.
Speaker 1:You know, I think I think pastors get um are easy scapegoats for life hardships. So it's like if your husband cheat on you, it's the pastor fault. You know, I mean, like he wouldn't, he wouldn't cheat on me, if you know, if he, if he wasn't on security at the church, what, what I do, what I gotta do, you know. So you get some of that too. It's just, it's just an easy out for a lot of life's difficulties for people. So you've got to be strong and you can't.
Speaker 1:I think another thing I've learned, norm, is not to take things personal, and it's something I teach even the pastors who, you know, reach up to me or reach out to me. Rather, don't, man, don't take it personal. Like, don't take people's exit personal. Don't take people's offense personal. Um, you got to really stay balanced and understanding that people gonna be people and and love who's there. You know. I mean like don't, don't try to um, don't, don't hold someone else's record against the next person. It's the baby mama who mad at the new daddy. It's like, well, terrence was a dog, you a dog too, so you got to fight that. You got to fight that urge to not trust people because the last person you trust did you wrong. So it's all of those things. But at the same time, there's nothing more rewarding, you know, man. For me personally, you know, there's nothing more rewarding than hearing, you know, our church sing our original music and nothing more rewarding than seeing people get baptized. And our last baptism man we did 200 three weeks ago.
Speaker 1:And I would say a massive portion of them, probably a fourth, if not more, probably a third of them, a third of them look like they probably, you know, at least in some point in life, an alternative, you know, or alternate lifestyle or some type of identity battle. At least a third of them, at least a third. So that's beautiful man and crying. It's not me to judge their progress, but God is doing something. God is doing something and it's dedication. I actually want to please God. We preach the whole Bible. I don't do I ain't no skate around, you know, but I'm not. But I'm also not mean, not harsh, like the Bible is true and Jesus is kind and he loves you and there's a way out of this and let us walk alongside with you. It's more of my approach, then. Don't do this, don't do this, don't do that, don't do that. I just that ain't that, ain't me. I'm not gonna preach hate, uh, I'm gonna preach love and it's effective and people are getting saved and have time to connect it.
Speaker 4:So, yeah, I do want to. I'll be remiss if I didn't, if we didn't at least quickly talk about uh. I mean, and you kind of know this, but, like a lot of the people that have been a part of Maverick or currently a part of Maverick got their start, you know, with doing ministry with you, and so I'd love to talk about that because I kind of felt like what the beginning of Maverick was is a display of a lot of the work in ministry and input that you put into their lives the Chandlers, the Dantes, the Aarons. Even so, maybe just talk about just the influence that you've had on the younger generation when it comes to worship, leading and just some of your hopes and desires there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, I think for me you know the way I came up, I didn't have a lot of looks right, I just didn't have there weren't people handing me opportunities. You know like that and you know funny part of my story, you know, me and Molly came up together so like teenage years, early 20s, both in the same region in Georgia, and so we would, you know, be together all the time he'll come crash, you know, at the house and we'll work on music. All the time He'll come crash at the house We'll work on music and this and that. And then what's funny is he just took off. He shot off like a rocket and everybody gave him a look, everybody, ty, kirk Dietrich, he was everywhere. Everybody had him featuring on TBN with him and then Kirk took him to Potter's house so he could give me that joy. You know what I mean, this homie I'm like.
Speaker 1:Last week he was on my flow, you know what I'm saying and like this dude is soaring, you know what I mean Like he's got the whole world in his hand, like everybody's calling him. He's doing every youth conference, he is Canton Jones over and you know it was tough for me because you do battle, this man wins my turn, type of thing. But God, he just slow cooked me. But I just always remember man, no one really gave me, you know, no, not anybody. I probably wasn't worth the looks, I wasn't ready for them, I probably wasn't talented enough. All those things you know is a part of that. So I'm not saying you know, bump all them. You know, molly was really, really good. She was vocally more ready than I was not a lot of help.
Speaker 1:So it's something I just I took pride in. I said from the beginning I was going to do. You know if you, if you recall my first, my first three records had no A-list features. You know, the first two featured Chad, a female. You know from my area, laura Wilson. You know, you know from my area, laura Wilson. You know you know these different people, zeke featured Dante, dante, dante, isaiah Templeton. Dante was a cool story. Dante actually came by my, the little place I was staying in in Charlotte. He just wanted me to listen to something and then, as he was leaving or maybe I was in Columbia then I don't remember, we were in Columbia he just wanted to stop by. He literally drove up. He just wanted me to hear something he was working on, uh, and actually feature on one of his songs, uh uh giants, yeah yeah, yeah, he brought it.
Speaker 1:He brought it to the house and I was like y'all see, and so I sung on it. Um, he was so excited and then he left and I was like I was I'll sing, and so I sung on it. And he was so excited and then he left and I was like I was working on the second record, I believe it was. It was Crossover, crossover, yeah, and I was like you know what, let me give it a shot. He probably sound good on this. I was like hey, come back.
Speaker 1:And he was like what, and I was like see how it feels, or whatever, and he did a great job, you know, um, but I'm not saying anything that looked like a whatever, you know. I'm just saying like part of that was because, like, I saw myself in them, like I saw like someone on the come up, someone with a gift, someone, and I'm just like man, well, I got, I got a record deal, you know, I mean I'm one in a million, you know, I mean I got, I got ej number ain't. Nobody else in the state of South Carolina can call EJ games.
Speaker 2:That's not a thing.
Speaker 1:So it's like man, what God has blessed us with. I want to be a door opener for others. That's literally my name. The name Travis means bridge. It literally means that it came from someone who would stand at the bridge and take cold toes and let people cross over. That's what my name literally is a bridge crossover.
Speaker 1:So for me, like I'm just kind of living out who I am in that uh, and I still do it today and at different opportunities. That's why I gave you. You know, the kids looks at, uh, whether I can't anymore, but the young adults looks at ford city, it's the same, it's the same thing. Like man, I got access. They're going to have me on the stellar stage. It's like yo, all right, I know y'all want me to do this song, y'all want me up there. You want Kalante, you want Daryl, cool, cool.
Speaker 1:I got a song working at the church. As a matter of fact, can I share my screen? I literally did this real quick. Look at this, this we filmed this at my church. It's called tent revival. You like it? Yeah, I'll give you three more minutes. You know, cool, I want to put these kids on and I literally took, you know, the guys from my church their first ever red carpet. I mean they, you know excited clothes on, you know taking pictures like and letting them yo, you come do this interview. Is this a part of? I think I, just I, to me, that's more satisfying for me to see other people shine than the, than the hulk of all the space. So that's that's really. That was the only thing behind the. You know, those guys that I had opportunity to be a part of their life let's talk quickly about the book.
Speaker 4:Uh, are you praying for the wrong thing? And I actually have it here? I don't know it wasn't you. My sister was looking up yeah, yeah, like, like I love the title of it, tell me, tell me, like, what's it about, what's the inspiration behind it, what's the heart yeah.
Speaker 1:So the book? Are you praying for the wrong thing? Is it very? Uh? I mean, it's something I'm very proud of, very excited about.
Speaker 1:It's not a book on prayer, even though prayer is in the title. It's not a book on prayer, even though prayer is in the title. It's actually a book on stewardship and one of the most valuable lessons that I've learned, really as a leader. Another leadership lesson is that there have been many seasons in my life that I prayed for things that I wasn't prepared for, and the Lord just taught me I could pray for miracles less if I pray for management more. There's some emergencies that I've had that were avoidable, that I stewarded well.
Speaker 1:And I think there's three levels in walking with God, right, I think the first level is the love zone, right To be loved by God, and it's something you should never graduate from. Hold it to your heart, but also know that he loves everybody the saint, the sinner, the prostitute, the, the preacher, it don't matter. He could love everybody. Everybody's a child of his right, so he loved everybody. Um, the second level that a lot of believers get stuck at is being used by god right way. In the bible, god used a ark, he used a donkey, uh. He used a stone, you know a cross, uh, which tells me you don't even have to be human to be used by God, and so that's not the ultimate. To be used by God is not the ultimate, it's cool, but he'll use anybody.
Speaker 1:And so I think that the greatest zone and this is really what I'm talking about in the book to graduate to in this Christianity walk is a trust zone to be trusted by God, to be trusted by God. I love my cousin. I'll use a plumber, but then I get my credit card. I got to trust you. I got to trust you, man. I mean, you got to be like in my intimate space and as I'm walking this thing out with God, there are certain places and certain things, and this is not about just possession, right, because you can make money. Without God you can't. So this is not even about, it's not about prosperity preaching, but it is about there are certain things, certain places, certain levels that you can only access with trust.
Speaker 1:And my brother taught me one of the most valuable lessons. I bring this up all the time. Anybody who knows me heard this story, because I I say it every, probably once a quarter, um, when he first started working with me, uh, he was like, uh, you know, a lot of people don't know this. What norman? Another thing that norman brought to the the space, uh, of christian music as a disruptor was like cameras and social stuff. That doubt didn't exist before him that's at that level.
Speaker 1:It didn't. Nobody walked around with cameras in our space. I know because I was in it for a long time and I was literally. He was looking at my tenor. He was like, fam, you just sung in front of 10,000. You're singing in front of 50,000. And you're about to do a show in front of 800,000 people. He said, bro, you do know nobody going to believe this. I'm like what I'm doing it? No one. It's like Travis, listen to me, bro. There's no one on the planet that's going to look your black self in the face and believe that you're taking in front of this amount of people. It's just unheard of.
Speaker 2:I'm like we're doing it Like.
Speaker 1:Africa. You know we've been global, we've been doing whatever, whatever. And he was like you gotta have a camera and my fruit would tell like how much that gonna cost. Right, like I'm already paying musicians, I'm paying these singers. You want to pay somebody? Answer a few hundred dollars. Like man, I know I got a. I got a family and food. Yeah, I did all these hundreds that add up and a flight. That's right. And he was like bro, just trust me, you gotta tell the story it's gonna take you to another.
Speaker 1:You know realm, and it did, um, but in that vein we was having a conversation one time about doing a video, a music video. It's like, yeah, we need to do this, do that, and you don't know me, you don't mind, you don't mind swiping that card. I was like fam, you know, back then, this wasn't no tribe, this was green, it wasn't no tribe, it wasn't no extracurricular money coming in. This was straight, it was Grease and Jumping Incorporated. So it's like fam, like dog, they gonna cost man, ain't got man. I was like, bro, it ain't that deep, it's like it is that deep.
Speaker 1:And I'll never forget one of the most valuable lessons I'm going to tie back to the book. He said I said, man, you know how big Made Away is? I said do you know how big it is, bro? This is the biggest song of our generation. Like it's a big record, bro. You know at the time, like this is a big, we're talking Take Me to the King, never would have made it. Like, made a way is a big record, bro. And I ain't got no music video. Nah, I said that, yeah, I think you're missing it. It's not about what you did without the music video. It's about what you missed by not having it. Wow, and that philosophy has shifted my thinking in such a way that many times we're counting the wrong thing. We're. We're counting what we were able to do, we're not counting what was left on the table wow and so, um, it shifted.
Speaker 1:So now, when I'm approaching strategy means I'm like no, no, no, we got to count what we'll be missing, not not what we're spending and not what we gain, but what are you missing out on? That's the, that's the actual expense, and so, um, that's what the book is about is about man. I don't, I don't want to waste time praying for things that don't matter to god, things that things that aren't, that aren't important to him. You know, the bible says delight yourself in the lord. He'll give you the desires of your heart. Um, that does not mean he'll give you what you want. It means he'll give you the desires of your heart. That does not mean he'll give you what you want. It means he'll give you what to want.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And there's a lot of frustrated Christians that are praying for something that God never promised. That's good yeah.
Speaker 3:That's good. Our last question to everybody is in life in general, what has been your maverick moment? It's the moment that defines who you are, how you got here, what it's been. What's been your maverick moment?
Speaker 1:That's a loaded question and it could go several different places, I think.
Speaker 4:I was going to say. It's a moment that is outside the box, where you decided to go outside the box, you went against the grain, you trusted God in a way that maybe you hadn't before in the past. It's like a defining moment. That was the moment.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's game seven. You cross over Byron Russell Hit it at the elbow.
Speaker 1:Oh man, probably this is going to be a curveball, but probably 2013 at John Hannah's church in Chicago. And what happened was I wrote a song called Intentional in rehearsal, wrote it in rehearsal Chan's there, everybody's there. We were rehearsing 2013 from my little band in Charlotte. I loved Romans 828.
Speaker 1:It's been the scripture that has made sense of life to me that all things work together. So, no matter what I face, it's been my constant like reminder man, god has to be working together for my good, uh, and so I always want to do something special with that. I remember fred did something with it like long time ago this is my old friend so I was like, all right, he did something with that song, I want to do something with that song, and I mean with that verse, I don't know what I want to do. And so I was like, alright, he did something with that song, I want to do something with that song, I mean with that verse, I don't know what I want to do. And so I was just messing around in rehearsal and just got into this little groove and I just literally started singing it and I'll never forget I sung it and I sung it through and it's going through iterations, I think at first, when I first wrote it, it was like I don't think it was never failing, it was like never something else. I don't even know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:And then I was in a rehearsal about to sing at a church, because we just started singing at our churches and the part I don't have to worry because this is working for me came in the sound check in Baton Rouge for a church service and literally I was like you know there and literally I was like oh man, and so everywhere we started through that whole year it just went stupid. I mean, we flipped every church this side of the equator. There were smaller churches, but them folks in the small churches was having a good time. They got 150 people. You know who was flipping them upside down everywhere Me and Chad Keith. You know who was flipping them upside down everywhere me and jay keith.
Speaker 1:You know tyrone bell flipping these churches upside down and then, um, so I go to chicago, deborah snoopy, hannah, you know, uh snoopy was there and I had known her from this previous deal that I had when I was just trying to get off the ground. And she's in the back and, as I first, I've known her at this point for probably four years, three, three years. And she's in the back and, as I first, I've known her at this point for probably four years, three, three years. And she's in the back and she's like trap, it's snoopy. And I was like, oh my god, you finally meet you in person.
Speaker 1:You know, back then, to meet in person means somebody flew you to meet them in person. You didn't just go to meet people and you couldn't afford a flight, so it's just like you know, they flew me here. I met hers. I was like yo, snoopy and you know this is me I was like yo, I got a song. It's just like, really, I was like I got a song. I'm telling you this is it like it was one of those like when smoky wrote uh, my girl for the temptation, like this is the one uh, this is it.
Speaker 1:Like it's a record, it's a real record. I said I want to hear, I'm hear it. I said I'm going to do it today. I didn't have it recorded. We're literally. Anybody could have stole this song. We're just going around just singing it Everywhere. You know what I mean. So, yeah, no, it ain't registered to be in my, it ain't nothing. I'm just out here. No protection, no protection. I First of all I thought John had, because the church I was going to was small churches.
Speaker 1:This is when he worked with radio. You remember when he had a radio station. So he did a radio interview with me. He was like I like this kid, let's bring him up here, yeah. So I literally thought it was going to be bro.
Speaker 1:I took four, I think I took four boxes and there were 30 CD boxes, that's 120 CDs. It was 15,000 people, I mean, and four services, jam-packed arena. I mean. It was at that time it was the largest church I had ever been in, Most folks I ever seen. So I go up, we hit the song, Dumped the place. John had to come back out. He's like yo come here. Hey, hey, yo come here. Did y'all hear what he just said? He just said in his ad-libs he's been doing it for a long time. I ain't never heard nobody say that before. He just said he's been doing. Say that again. He's been doing it for a long time. Say that again. Oh my god, singing it again. Church flip, we get to the back. He's laughing like what you brought? How many cities he's dying. Like you know he'll clap. There's like we're just all right. He's like bro, you don't know what church you're at, they're going to eat these CDs up. So and this is my old, old, like stressing out CD or something like that.
Speaker 1:So it's like, well, I'm just going to have one box per service, they're going to eat them up, they're going to be going. So every service they sold out before the service was dismissed they just ran out of, got it. Yo, that's crazy. Go home, record it i'ma. I'ma push it for you pro bono wow snoopy, that's what she told me wow I go home, record it in the closet.
Speaker 1:Uh, literally put a microphone in the closet, record intentional, um. And then I say, well, here is it, unmixed anything. She got it. I didn't know that she was hired by rca, I had no clue, didn Didn't know she was doing work for them on the side. So I think his name was Gio. Yeah, gio. So she was like Gio Joseph, y'all gotta hear this. She interrupted someone else's meeting. It was another artist's meeting. I know the name, I'll tell y'all later.
Speaker 3:She interrupted the meeting no no, no, no, no.
Speaker 1:That don't matter, Folks, the whole grudges, but she interrupted the meeting. I don't know, but I ain't trying to get them enemies. She interrupted the meeting, played the record and Gio said do whatever it take to get them here and they flew me to New York. The rest is history. So that was a moment Wow, and who was your attorney on that? Well, you came the next year. No, you came't do a good job, no you can't do a good job.
Speaker 3:He didn't do a good job. Whoever he was, he's a good man. Whoever his attorney was sucked. I seen that deal.
Speaker 2:I don't think I did the deal.
Speaker 1:You didn't do the deal. I know you didn't do the deal, but get out of there, but it was a season. It is what it is.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 2:We, yeah, that's good, we love that. So I want to talk a little bit about what I heard on my speaker when someone sent me a link and said hey, travis is working on this. You know, just listen ahead of the meeting and I was okay, I'll do it, you know. So I'm like making my coffee as what were you? Expecting to hear. I thought it was gonna be a big old worship album honestly I did so I'm making my coffee and I'm ready to go in like okay, well, this will be nice and the beat dropped and the guitar and this americana rootsy and I said wait what
Speaker 2:I grabbed my phone, I'm like what is I texted? I was like this is different. And from that moment I was like I mean, I'm joining the meeting, I'm rolling my sleeves up, finding my little marketing hat and just excited about it. So talk about the album just because I think it's going to be impactful, not because everyone's going to be singing it on Sunday morning, because it's not that type of album, but it is such an artistic expression that is refreshing and new and real and excellent. It is excellent. So I'm just hyping it, but go nah we'll leave some suspense.
Speaker 1:I won't say the album title. We'll maybe do like a something a reveal, yeah, reveal. We gotta get back to the reveal days. Right, everything's too easy.
Speaker 1:Now we gotta read it's just a blurry, yeah, nah, we got a reveal um, but no man, I I was just ready to to start cooking again and, uh, actually, the the the biggest help for this record, honestly, is sitting to my right. Uh, it was jj. He was like uh, hey man, I know you, you think about doing some more music, what do you think about, you know, doing some kind of off the wall collaborations? And I'll never forget my response to him was uh, hey, man, if I have to carry the room, I don't want to be in it. Right, it's not worth it for me If I'm going, if I'm, unless I'm specifically trying to help people learn how to write. But when we talk about like my actual material, I'm more efficient in my zone. But if you could put me around people who are going to challenge me, me, or can add and he just kind of had a smirk, it was like there's some guys out there watch this there's some guys out there that get that kid, you know.
Speaker 1:And I was like, all right, well, you know, surprise me, let's go. It was like you willing to go to that field. I was like, yeah, let's do it. So went, did a few rights and then, uh, one guy in particular, man, we just man, we just struck fire the very first session. It was like oh snap, what was that? And then, but we're going in a certain direction. Uh was the first record was was a little more worship, so it's headed on the direction. And then I literally, um, things come to me and dream sometime and I literally just kind of had a dream and I really felt like the Lord was like, hey, I don't like, and I had to have permission because it's not who I naturally am. Right, my nature is like I am. I'm a. You know how people be like I'm from the church, but I ain't proud of it. Nah, and you know how some people wear the hood on their sleeve. I'm from east side dog, like that's how I am about church. I'm from church dog. Like I'm proud, like I ain't.
Speaker 1:I don't shy away from it, I'll straight, speak it to us right here on map, on the mic, and y'all just keep up or join me, I don't care. This is what it is like. I'm charismatic and I am proud of my upbringing, I'm proud of god, I'm proud of the church and I ain't got no problem with that. So, musicallyically, that's my lane. I'm like you know who you're going to get Preaching, that's my lane, you know who you're going to get. And so God had to give me permission to do something different. Not that I was, I wasn't even seeking it, bro. It was literally like he was. Just like. I want you to make a record for the person who may not come to church.
Speaker 1:And I was like what come to church now I'm like what I ain't even, you know, like I, you know that ain't. That's not like natural, like I'm cool and I can adjust and I can assimilate and if I'm in an environment you know I could, I could be all things to reach anybody. But like musically, that's never been and I'm not one to like try to make non-christian music for the sake of being cool. I feel very cool as a christian. I don't need anything to build my confidence, so I don't need that. I don't need you know. So for me it was just like God was like nah, and this is the way I felt, like he phrased it, and this is what I took back to the studio.
Speaker 1:Like, make a record for the listener's brother who won't come to church, and so that's what the album is and that's why it has that tone. And then we went back and, kind of, we found this, this gritty uh thing, and we was like you know what, let's just keep the, let's keep the album like this. And so the record feels very gritty, very um, very old and modern at the same time, which is kind of cool, um, but every one of them has very cool uh messaging. Ultimately and I had this conversation with uh, with old girl yesterday, but she was saying, ultimately it still is gospel, because it is the gospel, so I'm still, it's still reaching people. I was just very again.
Speaker 1:I felt this mission, this burden from god. I'm this is the first time I'm not dead in your face with jesus and the blood and the holy ghost. Every single song. That's right. I'm not. It's not like. It's not like dead on. That's coming too, though. I want to do a live worship record, so I I ain't lost my edge for anybody who who wanted like, did we lose them? No, I'll sit here, but this is literally a missional record. It's outreach and I think it's going to be effective. I'm excited about it. I'm really excited. Outreach and I think it's going to be effective. I'm excited about it. I'm really excited about it.
Speaker 4:That's definitely. It's fresh, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3:Well, ladies and gentlemen, this has been Mavericks on the Mic. We've had the Grammy Award nominated. We've had the pastor. Extraordinaire leadership, extraordinaire author my brother, your favorite worship leader is worship leader. Your favorite worship leader is worship leader. Your favorite worship leader is worship leader Travis Green. You don't want to miss this episode. You know where to find us. Check it out on Travels, youtube, mav City Music Instagram. We're going to do a collab post on this one, though, so it'll be at TravisGreentv. No dot and likely for over city you.