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I'm"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":171.4,"endTime":175.0,"body":"so grateful that you're on this"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":171.4,"endTime":175.0,"body":"journey with me, and I'd really"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":175.0,"endTime":178.18,"body":"appreciate it if you could share"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":175.0,"endTime":178.18,"body":"the show with your friends and"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":178.18,"endTime":182.34,"body":"to help us get this momentum"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":178.18,"endTime":182.34,"body":"going with our rebrand this week"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":182.34,"endTime":186.66,"body":"is very exciting. 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He"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":278.06,"endTime":281.62,"body":"is an expert in organizational"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":278.06,"endTime":281.62,"body":"behavior and has spent years"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":281.62,"endTime":284.68,"body":"exploring the psychological"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":281.62,"endTime":284.68,"body":"complexities of how we define"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":284.68,"endTime":287.86,"body":"ourselves through our"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":284.68,"endTime":287.86,"body":"accomplishments. 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It was about how"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":298.72,"endTime":301.32,"body":"perfectionists can rethink a."},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":298.72,"endTime":301.32,"body":"Accomplishment and find a"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":301.32,"endTime":303.66,"body":"greater sense of accomplishment"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":301.32,"endTime":303.66,"body":"through thinking about their"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":303.66,"endTime":307.62,"body":"purpose in life and how the"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":303.66,"endTime":307.62,"body":"impact of their accomplishments"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":307.62,"endTime":312.42,"body":"is more than just an outcome. I"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":307.62,"endTime":312.42,"body":"think this applies to everybody,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":312.78,"endTime":317.16,"body":"and I found Dr Ben Walker"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":312.78,"endTime":317.16,"body":"through my research in doing"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":317.16,"endTime":321.08,"body":"this work, and he has also been"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":317.16,"endTime":321.08,"body":"a mentor in moving forward in"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":321.08,"endTime":323.9,"body":"some of the work that I hope to"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":321.08,"endTime":323.9,"body":"do. 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Now a performance"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":347.98,"endTime":351.34,"body":"based identity isn't always a"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":351.34,"endTime":354.22,"body":"bad thing, but it can become"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":351.34,"endTime":354.22,"body":"one, and we'll talk about that"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":354.22,"endTime":356.68,"body":"today. We'll talk about some of"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":354.22,"endTime":356.68,"body":"the serious downsides of having"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":356.68,"endTime":360.66,"body":"a performance based identity. A"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":356.68,"endTime":360.66,"body":"lot of us as athletes struggle"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":360.66,"endTime":363.84,"body":"with this as cyclists, whether"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":360.66,"endTime":363.84,"body":"you're a professional or not, we"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":363.84,"endTime":366.6,"body":"worry so much about what other"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":363.84,"endTime":366.6,"body":"people think about us, and we"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":366.6,"endTime":369.6,"body":"think that people only care"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":366.6,"endTime":369.6,"body":"about us because we are"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":369.6,"endTime":372.66,"body":"performing well. This is"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":369.6,"endTime":372.66,"body":"something that I really struggle"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":372.66,"endTime":376.32,"body":"with across multiple domains."},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":372.66,"endTime":376.32,"body":"Performance based, identity is"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":376.32,"endTime":378.66,"body":"formed for different reasons,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":376.32,"endTime":378.66,"body":"which you'll hear about today,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":379.32,"endTime":382.7,"body":"but we'll be peeling back the"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":379.32,"endTime":382.7,"body":"layers and the complexities of"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":382.7,"endTime":386.78,"body":"this of what it means to be a"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":382.7,"endTime":386.78,"body":"high performer. Dr Ben Walker"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":386.78,"endTime":390.02,"body":"will share his insights on the"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":386.78,"endTime":390.02,"body":"pitfalls of performance based"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":390.02,"endTime":393.08,"body":"identities and how we can"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":390.02,"endTime":393.08,"body":"navigate them. We'll delve into"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":393.08,"endTime":396.2,"body":"the thin line between striving"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":393.08,"endTime":396.2,"body":"for success and being consumed"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":396.2,"endTime":399.62,"body":"by it man that is hard, and I"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":396.2,"endTime":399.62,"body":"think that this is such an"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":399.62,"endTime":403.48,"body":"important topic for people who"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":399.62,"endTime":403.48,"body":"are concerning themselves with"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":403.48,"endTime":407.2,"body":"performance and with striving,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":403.48,"endTime":407.2,"body":"we'll talk about the nuances of"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":407.2,"endTime":410.86,"body":"performance based identity, how"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":407.2,"endTime":410.86,"body":"they develop the potential harms"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":410.86,"endTime":413.98,"body":"they can cause, and strategies"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":410.86,"endTime":413.98,"body":"for managing them in healthier"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":413.98,"endTime":417.76,"body":"ways. Dr Walker challenges the"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":413.98,"endTime":417.76,"body":"common assumption that obsessing"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":417.76,"endTime":421.62,"body":"over success is necessary for"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":417.76,"endTime":421.62,"body":"achievement whether you identify"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":421.62,"endTime":424.44,"body":"as a high performer yourself, or"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":421.62,"endTime":424.44,"body":"you know someone who is driven"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":424.44,"endTime":427.8,"body":"by a need to constantly Excel,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":424.44,"endTime":427.8,"body":"this episode offers a fresh"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":427.8,"endTime":432.18,"body":"perspective. Dr Ben Walker's"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":427.8,"endTime":432.18,"body":"insights will encourage us all"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":432.18,"endTime":435.36,"body":"to reflect on how we define our"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":432.18,"endTime":435.36,"body":"sense of self and discover more"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":435.36,"endTime":438.3,"body":"balance and meaning in our lives"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":435.36,"endTime":438.3,"body":"beyond just the pursuit of"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":438.3,"endTime":443.12,"body":"performance. This topic is a"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":438.3,"endTime":443.12,"body":"primary topic in my coaching"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":443.12,"endTime":445.88,"body":"business. This is what"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":443.12,"endTime":445.88,"body":"executives and high performers"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":445.88,"endTime":449.42,"body":"and athletes come to me to work"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":445.88,"endTime":449.42,"body":"on. So if you know anybody who"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":449.42,"endTime":452.72,"body":"is who is managing their"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":449.42,"endTime":452.72,"body":"performance based identity needs"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":452.72,"endTime":456.32,"body":"some help, some support. I'm"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":452.72,"endTime":456.32,"body":"here. I'm here to help them be"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":456.32,"endTime":459.8,"body":"more resilient. I'm here to help"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":456.32,"endTime":459.8,"body":"them have more purpose in their"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":459.8,"endTime":462.58,"body":"goals and in their life moving"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":459.8,"endTime":462.58,"body":"forward. So don't keep me a"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":462.58,"endTime":465.16,"body":"secret if you think that"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":462.58,"endTime":465.16,"body":"somebody would benefit from my"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":465.16,"endTime":468.82,"body":"help as a coach. All right, so"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":465.16,"endTime":468.82,"body":"let's get ready to redefine what"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":468.82,"endTime":472.12,"body":"being your best self truly means"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":468.82,"endTime":472.12,"body":"with Dr Ben Walker, hey."},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":482.56,"endTime":483.9,"body":"Ben Welcome to the show."},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":484.74,"endTime":486.48,"body":"Thanks so much for"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":484.74,"endTime":486.48,"body":"having me. Thanks for the"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":486.48,"endTime":488.28,"body":"invitation. It's so"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":488.28,"endTime":490.8,"body":"much fun to kind"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":488.28,"endTime":490.8,"body":"of come full circle, because I"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":490.8,"endTime":493.92,"body":"read a lot of your work from my"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":490.8,"endTime":493.92,"body":"research capstone for my"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":493.92,"endTime":496.8,"body":"Masters, and then we got to chat"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":493.92,"endTime":496.8,"body":"about it. So that was pretty"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":496.8,"endTime":500.42,"body":"cool. You call yourself a work"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":496.8,"endTime":500.42,"body":"nerd. Can you tell me more about"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":500.42,"endTime":503.72,"body":"what that is, because, I mean, I"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":500.42,"endTime":503.72,"body":"identify it as a nerd, so that's"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":503.72,"endTime":504.32,"body":"working. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":505.34,"endTime":507.92,"body":"yeah, it's a term. I"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":505.34,"endTime":507.92,"body":"only just started using that"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":507.92,"endTime":512.96,"body":"term recently because I found it"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":507.92,"endTime":512.96,"body":"really difficult and quite"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":512.96,"endTime":516.56,"body":"painful to say to people when"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":512.96,"endTime":516.56,"body":"they ask me what I do, I"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":516.56,"endTime":519.44,"body":"usually, in the past, I would"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":516.56,"endTime":519.44,"body":"just give them my job title,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":519.44,"endTime":522.82,"body":"which is Senior Lecturer in"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":519.44,"endTime":522.82,"body":"organizational behavior, and"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":522.82,"endTime":525.34,"body":"when you say that to most normal"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":522.82,"endTime":525.34,"body":"people, their eyes just glaze"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":525.34,"endTime":529.78,"body":"over and they go, the hell what"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":525.34,"endTime":529.78,"body":"do you actually do? Like just"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":529.78,"endTime":533.44,"body":"creates more confusion than"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":529.78,"endTime":533.44,"body":"clarity. So I found the term"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":533.98,"endTime":537.04,"body":"work nerd really helpful to just"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":533.98,"endTime":537.04,"body":"give people an immediate sense"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":537.04,"endTime":541.38,"body":"of what I do. Basically, I'm an"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":537.04,"endTime":541.38,"body":"academic at a university in New"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":541.38,"endTime":544.62,"body":"Zealand, Victoria University of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":541.38,"endTime":544.62,"body":"Wellington, and I study the"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":544.62,"endTime":550.38,"body":"human side of work. And so all"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":544.62,"endTime":550.38,"body":"of that kind of falls under this"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":550.38,"endTime":554.94,"body":"umbrella of the field of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":550.38,"endTime":554.94,"body":"organizational behavior. And so"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":554.94,"endTime":559.02,"body":"we have psychologists and"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":554.94,"endTime":559.02,"body":"sociologists and anthropologists"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":559.02,"endTime":562.52,"body":"people from looking at these"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":559.02,"endTime":562.52,"body":"sort of human aspects of work"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":562.52,"endTime":566.36,"body":"using all of these different"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":562.52,"endTime":566.36,"body":"lenses and theories and research"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":566.36,"endTime":571.1,"body":"approaches. And that's basically"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":566.36,"endTime":571.1,"body":"the field that I work in and"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":571.1,"endTime":577.4,"body":"research. And hence the title"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":571.1,"endTime":577.4,"body":"work nerd. So yeah, for me, my"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":577.4,"endTime":581.02,"body":"interests are very much on the"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":577.4,"endTime":581.02,"body":"psychological side. I'm really"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":581.02,"endTime":584.68,"body":"interested in issues of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":581.02,"endTime":584.68,"body":"identity, and sort of the"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":584.68,"endTime":587.92,"body":"intersection between our work"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":584.68,"endTime":587.92,"body":"lives and our identities and"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":587.92,"endTime":590.98,"body":"sense of selves. I'm sure we'll"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":587.92,"endTime":590.98,"body":"talk about that a bit in this"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":590.98,"endTime":595.0,"body":"conversation and in other"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":590.98,"endTime":595.0,"body":"projects, sort of research"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":595.0,"endTime":599.92,"body":"programs I have, one is related"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":595.0,"endTime":599.92,"body":"to psychology, of engaging."},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":600.0,"endTime":603.0,"body":"Experts and expertise, and how"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":600.0,"endTime":603.0,"body":"can we sort of promote higher"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":603.0,"endTime":607.02,"body":"quality interactions with"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":603.0,"endTime":607.02,"body":"experts and organizations, but"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":607.02,"endTime":612.6,"body":"also by experts in"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":607.02,"endTime":612.6,"body":"organizations. And a sort of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":612.6,"endTime":615.66,"body":"another research program is"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":612.6,"endTime":615.66,"body":"about looking at sort of counter"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":615.66,"endTime":620.72,"body":"perspectives on motivation and"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":615.66,"endTime":620.72,"body":"high performance. So doing"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":620.72,"endTime":624.38,"body":"research and studies that make"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":620.72,"endTime":624.38,"body":"us think differently and think"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":624.38,"endTime":628.34,"body":"beyond or maybe even rethink the"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":624.38,"endTime":628.34,"body":"conventional wisdom that's out"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":628.34,"endTime":632.24,"body":"there about what leads makes"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":628.34,"endTime":632.24,"body":"people perform at high levels in"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":632.24,"endTime":636.5,"body":"their profession or occupation,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":632.24,"endTime":636.5,"body":"and also what it's like to sort"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":636.5,"endTime":641.38,"body":"of to exist as a high performer"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":636.5,"endTime":641.38,"body":"in whatever your chosen"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":641.38,"endTime":646.54,"body":"occupation is. So, yeah, it's a"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":641.38,"endTime":646.54,"body":"bit about me and my research,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":646.54,"endTime":649.72,"body":"and hopefully helps clarify that"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":646.54,"endTime":649.72,"body":"work nerd too."},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":651.76,"endTime":655.06,"body":"So performance is"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":651.76,"endTime":655.06,"body":"this buzzword that everybody"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":655.06,"endTime":657.76,"body":"wants. I want performance. I"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":655.06,"endTime":657.76,"body":"want to optimize my performance."},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":658.54,"endTime":662.46,"body":"What are some of the dark sides"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":658.54,"endTime":662.46,"body":"to that, to always obsessing"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":662.46,"endTime":663.54,"body":"over performance."},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":665.34,"endTime":667.68,"body":"I think you can"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":665.34,"endTime":667.68,"body":"think about it. 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So I think at a"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":802.94,"endTime":806.78,"body":"base level, I mean, there's all"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":802.94,"endTime":806.78,"body":"sorts of big, sort of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":806.78,"endTime":811.1,"body":"psychological theories that say"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":806.78,"endTime":811.1,"body":"that a funded humans have a"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":811.1,"endTime":814.58,"body":"fundamental need for competence."},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":811.1,"endTime":814.58,"body":"You know, we want to be at some"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":814.58,"endTime":816.86,"body":"level. We want to be good at"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":814.58,"endTime":816.86,"body":"things. 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I"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":847.74,"endTime":851.22,"body":"suppose it's not necessarily"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":851.22,"endTime":855.36,"body":"just a box to check to say, Yes,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":851.22,"endTime":855.36,"body":"I have some degree of competence"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":855.36,"endTime":858.48,"body":"in my life. It's saying this is"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":855.36,"endTime":858.48,"body":"a really central part of my"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":858.48,"endTime":861.68,"body":"life. It's a central part of how"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":858.48,"endTime":861.68,"body":"I see and understand myself and"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":861.68,"endTime":866.84,"body":"my purpose in the world. So,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":861.68,"endTime":866.84,"body":"yeah, they are quite they're"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":866.84,"endTime":869.72,"body":"quite different relationships"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":866.84,"endTime":869.72,"body":"with performance. I think one is"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":869.72,"endTime":872.66,"body":"sort of, you know, if you're"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":869.72,"endTime":872.66,"body":"just relating to performance, in"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":872.66,"endTime":876.26,"body":"that first sense, it's more sort"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":872.66,"endTime":876.26,"body":"of instrumental. You might want"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":876.26,"endTime":879.56,"body":"to, you know, do a do a decent"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":876.26,"endTime":879.56,"body":"job at work, to get paid more,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":879.56,"endTime":883.48,"body":"or to be able to meet your"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":879.56,"endTime":883.48,"body":"family's needs or whatever it"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":883.48,"endTime":887.26,"body":"is, really the other one is very"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":883.48,"endTime":887.26,"body":"much a sort of more existential"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":887.38,"endTime":891.04,"body":"relationship with performance,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":887.38,"endTime":891.04,"body":"and, like you said, really"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":891.04,"endTime":895.0,"body":"making it the center of who you"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":891.04,"endTime":895.0,"body":"are, in the center of your your"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":895.0,"endTime":899.92,"body":"world and your life. I suppose"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":895.0,"endTime":899.92,"body":"those are obviously too extreme."},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":900.0,"endTime":902.88,"body":"And I think different people"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":900.0,"endTime":902.88,"body":"will be at different places on"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":902.88,"endTime":905.4,"body":"the spectrum between those"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":902.88,"endTime":905.4,"body":"things. But, yeah, it's a"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":905.52,"endTime":908.04,"body":"helpful way to sort of, I guess,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":905.52,"endTime":908.04,"body":"start that conversation and"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":908.04,"endTime":912.66,"body":"think about, what are the sort"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":908.04,"endTime":912.66,"body":"of two, those two different ways"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":912.66,"endTime":915.6,"body":"of relating to performance. This"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":915.6,"endTime":917.64,"body":"is something you"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":915.6,"endTime":917.64,"body":"and I were talking about a"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":917.64,"endTime":922.1,"body":"little bit off the mic last time"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":917.64,"endTime":922.1,"body":"was athletes and, you know,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":922.1,"endTime":924.38,"body":"coming from my world of"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":922.1,"endTime":924.38,"body":"athletes, and there's probably"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":924.38,"endTime":927.68,"body":"lots of people listening saying,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":924.38,"endTime":927.68,"body":"Wow, I might, you know, be"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":927.68,"endTime":929.96,"body":"forming a performance based"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":927.68,"endTime":929.96,"body":"identity, or I might have one"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":930.02,"endTime":932.6,"body":"even, even if I'm not a"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":930.02,"endTime":932.6,"body":"professional, even if it's not"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":932.6,"endTime":935.18,"body":"what I do for work, like that"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":932.6,"endTime":935.18,"body":"thing that I put all my time and"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":935.18,"endTime":938.78,"body":"energy into. Can you further"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":935.18,"endTime":938.78,"body":"define a performance based"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":938.78,"endTime":940.96,"body":"identity? So people can start"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":938.78,"endTime":940.96,"body":"kind of thinking, Well, is this"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":940.96,"endTime":942.64,"body":"something that I'm wrestling"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":940.96,"endTime":942.64,"body":"with?"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":943.78,"endTime":947.8,"body":"Yeah, so I kind of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":943.78,"endTime":947.8,"body":"think of it as, I mean, there's"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":947.8,"endTime":950.08,"body":"a there's a technical"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":947.8,"endTime":950.08,"body":"definition, and then there's the"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":950.08,"endTime":952.36,"body":"sort of like, what you're"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":950.08,"endTime":952.36,"body":"talking about is how, what would"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":952.36,"endTime":957.34,"body":"be a sign that you kind of have"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":952.36,"endTime":957.34,"body":"one. So the technical way, I"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":957.34,"endTime":959.5,"body":"kind of think about a"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":957.34,"endTime":959.5,"body":"performance based identity, or"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":959.5,"endTime":962.76,"body":"have come to think about it"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":959.5,"endTime":962.76,"body":"after, after studying it in"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":962.76,"endTime":967.14,"body":"different ways is really having"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":962.76,"endTime":967.14,"body":"two parts to it. So there's this"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":967.14,"endTime":970.32,"body":"sort of performance self"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":967.14,"endTime":970.32,"body":"knowledge, which is kind of the"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":970.32,"endTime":973.56,"body":"label that people give"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":970.32,"endTime":973.56,"body":"themselves and and that label"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":973.56,"endTime":976.14,"body":"could be, you know, there's"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":973.56,"endTime":976.14,"body":"loads of different labels people"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":976.14,"endTime":978.6,"body":"could get themselves. They could"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":976.14,"endTime":978.6,"body":"think of themselves as a top"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":978.6,"endTime":983.0,"body":"performer, as a good performer,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":978.6,"endTime":983.0,"body":"maybe as someone who's a lot"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":983.0,"endTime":985.7,"body":"better than they used to be. If"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":983.0,"endTime":985.7,"body":"you want to sort of be, you"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":985.7,"endTime":989.42,"body":"know, take a self focused"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":985.7,"endTime":989.42,"body":"perspective. So there's a sort"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":989.42,"endTime":992.48,"body":"of self knowledge as the label"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":989.42,"endTime":992.48,"body":"part, and then the second part"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":992.48,"endTime":997.64,"body":"of it is what I sort of call"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":992.48,"endTime":997.64,"body":"personal meanings. And these the"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":997.64,"endTime":1003.42,"body":"reasons why that label matters"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":997.64,"endTime":1003.42,"body":"to someone. And with the"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1003.42,"endTime":1006.9,"body":"personal meanings. I mean, I"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1003.42,"endTime":1006.9,"body":"think here too, it's important"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1006.9,"endTime":1010.98,"body":"to emphasize it's not just about"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1006.9,"endTime":1010.98,"body":"the sort of instrumental reasons"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1010.98,"endTime":1014.34,"body":"I was talking about earlier, why"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1010.98,"endTime":1014.34,"body":"anyone cares about doing a good"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1014.34,"endTime":1017.34,"body":"job at something. You know, it's"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1014.34,"endTime":1017.34,"body":"it's to get paid more, it's to"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1017.34,"endTime":1021.92,"body":"keep my job. It's to keep my"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1017.34,"endTime":1021.92,"body":"boss happy and off my back, or"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1021.92,"endTime":1026.18,"body":"whatever it is, those sort of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1021.92,"endTime":1026.18,"body":"like surface level reasons with"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1026.18,"endTime":1030.56,"body":"these meanings, they're much"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1026.18,"endTime":1030.56,"body":"more existential and kind of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1030.56,"endTime":1034.58,"body":"deeply rooted. So it might be"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1030.56,"endTime":1034.58,"body":"something like, you know, I"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1034.58,"endTime":1038.72,"body":"being that kind of performer is"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1034.58,"endTime":1038.72,"body":"important to me, because it's"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1039.14,"endTime":1042.52,"body":"something I've invested so much"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1039.14,"endTime":1042.52,"body":"of my life into, and I see it as"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1042.52,"endTime":1046.72,"body":"kind of my calling, or as my my"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1042.52,"endTime":1046.72,"body":"purpose in life, to sort of be"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1046.72,"endTime":1050.2,"body":"really good at whatever your"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1046.72,"endTime":1050.2,"body":"thing is, sports, hobbies,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1050.2,"endTime":1054.52,"body":"whatever. So, yeah, I think"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1050.2,"endTime":1054.52,"body":"that's an important distinction."},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1054.58,"endTime":1057.4,"body":"It's, I don't think you get to a"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1054.58,"endTime":1057.4,"body":"performance based identity just"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1057.4,"endTime":1062.46,"body":"by caring about doing a good"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1057.4,"endTime":1062.46,"body":"job. There's some extra, sort of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1063.12,"endTime":1066.66,"body":"deeper, more existential"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1063.12,"endTime":1066.66,"body":"meanings that have to be. They"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1066.66,"endTime":1069.9,"body":"have to sort of be attached to"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1066.66,"endTime":1069.9,"body":"that label. And that,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1069.96,"endTime":1073.26,"body":"ultimately, is what kind of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1069.96,"endTime":1073.26,"body":"makes the thing self defining."},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1073.92,"endTime":1077.76,"body":"And so this idea of self"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1073.92,"endTime":1077.76,"body":"definition, I think, is where we"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1077.76,"endTime":1079.92,"body":"get to the part of, well, how do"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1077.76,"endTime":1079.92,"body":"you kind of know if you have"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1079.92,"endTime":1085.1,"body":"one? And the test I always sort"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1079.92,"endTime":1085.1,"body":"of use Well, you know, and it's"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1085.1,"endTime":1090.02,"body":"a blunt shortcut, admittedly,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1085.1,"endTime":1090.02,"body":"but I think it's helpful to"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1090.02,"endTime":1094.1,"body":"think for people to think if, if"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1090.02,"endTime":1094.1,"body":"you took that identity away,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1094.46,"endTime":1100.04,"body":"would you still be you? Would"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1094.46,"endTime":1100.04,"body":"you still have other identities"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1100.04,"endTime":1104.02,"body":"and other things in life and"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1100.04,"endTime":1104.02,"body":"other ways of understanding"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1104.02,"endTime":1108.16,"body":"yourself that would still, you"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1104.02,"endTime":1108.16,"body":"know, you'd still be reasonably"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1108.16,"endTime":1112.24,"body":"intact if that identity was lost"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1108.16,"endTime":1112.24,"body":"or erased for whatever reason."},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1113.08,"endTime":1117.64,"body":"And that's not always an easy"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1113.08,"endTime":1117.64,"body":"question to answer, but I think"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1117.64,"endTime":1121.2,"body":"it's a helpful one to think"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1117.64,"endTime":1121.2,"body":"about to start along that path"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1121.2,"endTime":1124.5,"body":"of, sort of, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1121.2,"endTime":1124.5,"body":"critically reflecting and"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1125.1,"endTime":1128.46,"body":"considering if this is an"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1125.1,"endTime":1128.46,"body":"identity that's sort of relevant"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1128.46,"endTime":1130.62,"body":"to to you as a person."},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1132.12,"endTime":1134.1,"body":"Can you have"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1132.12,"endTime":1134.1,"body":"multiple performance based"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1134.1,"endTime":1136.98,"body":"identities, like, say, I have a"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1134.1,"endTime":1136.98,"body":"performance based identity as an"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1136.98,"endTime":1140.28,"body":"athlete or as, like, whatever"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1136.98,"endTime":1140.28,"body":"else I might be doing."},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1141.18,"endTime":1144.68,"body":"I think, I mean, I"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1141.18,"endTime":1144.68,"body":"totally think so in theory. And"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1144.68,"endTime":1147.14,"body":"I also think it's possible,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1144.68,"endTime":1147.14,"body":"though, that these sometimes"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1147.14,"endTime":1152.24,"body":"converge into something more"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1147.14,"endTime":1152.24,"body":"global. So I think, as part of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1152.24,"endTime":1155.36,"body":"my PhD research was all on this"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1152.24,"endTime":1155.36,"body":"performance based identity"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1155.36,"endTime":1158.66,"body":"stuff. I interviewed a bunch of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1155.36,"endTime":1158.66,"body":"elite rugby players in"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1158.66,"endTime":1163.36,"body":"Australia, about 30 players, men"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1158.66,"endTime":1163.36,"body":"and women. And I remember there"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1163.36,"endTime":1168.88,"body":"was one interviewee who sort of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1163.36,"endTime":1168.88,"body":"just seemed to take a lot of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1168.88,"endTime":1173.08,"body":"pride in the fact he was good at"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1168.88,"endTime":1173.08,"body":"kind of everything, and that,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1173.08,"endTime":1176.14,"body":"you know, I'm sitting there work"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1173.08,"endTime":1176.14,"body":"nerd, kind of being like, Oh,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1176.14,"endTime":1179.44,"body":"damn you so talented and and"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1176.14,"endTime":1179.44,"body":"amazing. But he was like, he was"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1179.44,"endTime":1182.22,"body":"clearly very good at lots of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1179.44,"endTime":1182.22,"body":"things. He was good at sports."},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1182.22,"endTime":1184.62,"body":"He was good academically. You"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1182.22,"endTime":1184.62,"body":"know, he was getting into sort"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1184.62,"endTime":1187.68,"body":"of business things and"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1184.62,"endTime":1187.68,"body":"investment, and he was very good"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1187.68,"endTime":1190.08,"body":"at these things. And I think"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1187.68,"endTime":1190.08,"body":"there was a for me, there was a"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1190.08,"endTime":1193.62,"body":"sense of interviewing him, that"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1190.08,"endTime":1193.62,"body":"there was sort of a convergence"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1193.62,"endTime":1197.4,"body":"to not just having these, these"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1193.62,"endTime":1197.4,"body":"multiple identities, but them"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1197.4,"endTime":1200.24,"body":"actually kind of fusing together"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1197.4,"endTime":1200.24,"body":"into something more global. And"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1200.24,"endTime":1204.2,"body":"sort of just seeing yourself as"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1200.24,"endTime":1204.2,"body":"a as a high performer, more"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1204.2,"endTime":1208.82,"body":"generally. I think I remember"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1204.2,"endTime":1208.82,"body":"him saying something like, you"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1208.82,"endTime":1211.34,"body":"know, it's not, it's not just"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1208.82,"endTime":1211.34,"body":"good enough to be a good rugby"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1211.34,"endTime":1214.76,"body":"player. Similarly, thinking, you"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1211.34,"endTime":1214.76,"body":"know, he's reached the the elite"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1214.76,"endTime":1217.4,"body":"level. I'm like, well, maybe it"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1214.76,"endTime":1217.4,"body":"is, but he was sort of thing,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1217.4,"endTime":1220.34,"body":"he's not just good enough to be"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1217.4,"endTime":1220.34,"body":"a good rugby player. You've got"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1220.34,"endTime":1223.24,"body":"to sort of be good at everything"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1220.34,"endTime":1223.24,"body":"else in life as well. And so"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1223.24,"endTime":1226.24,"body":"he's held himself to a very high"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1223.24,"endTime":1226.24,"body":"standard. But yeah, I think it"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1226.24,"endTime":1228.76,"body":"is. I think it's definitely"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1226.24,"endTime":1228.76,"body":"possible to have multiple"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1228.76,"endTime":1231.34,"body":"performance based identities,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1228.76,"endTime":1231.34,"body":"and I also think it's possible,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1231.34,"endTime":1234.1,"body":"like I said, for them to kind of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1231.34,"endTime":1234.1,"body":"converge or fuse into something"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1234.1,"endTime":1237.1,"body":"that's, you know, a broader"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1234.1,"endTime":1237.1,"body":"sense of being a high performer"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1237.58,"endTime":1240.84,"body":"in life, as opposed to just in"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1237.58,"endTime":1240.84,"body":"one particular domain."},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1241.68,"endTime":1244.02,"body":"And when I hear"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1241.68,"endTime":1244.02,"body":"this, I think about how this"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1244.02,"endTime":1246.66,"body":"could be a good thing, but I"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1244.02,"endTime":1246.66,"body":"also think about how it could be"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1246.66,"endTime":1250.56,"body":"a bad thing. And you know, if"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1246.66,"endTime":1250.56,"body":"you view yourself as highly"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1250.56,"endTime":1253.32,"body":"competent, highly capable, and"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1250.56,"endTime":1253.32,"body":"I'm somebody that can"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1253.62,"endTime":1256.02,"body":"essentially go after anything"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1253.62,"endTime":1256.02,"body":"and do well at it, that there"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1256.02,"endTime":1258.78,"body":"could be benefits there. But if"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1256.02,"endTime":1258.78,"body":"you go after things and you"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1258.78,"endTime":1262.52,"body":"don't do well at it, and your"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1258.78,"endTime":1262.52,"body":"identity is at stake, then that"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1262.52,"endTime":1266.84,"body":"becomes highly problematic. What"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1262.52,"endTime":1266.84,"body":"can people do if they if they"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1266.84,"endTime":1269.12,"body":"feel that way, they feel like I"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1266.84,"endTime":1269.12,"body":"have a performance based"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1269.12,"endTime":1272.36,"body":"identity, but I'm not performing"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1269.12,"endTime":1272.36,"body":"the way that I used to or the"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1272.36,"endTime":1274.1,"body":"way that I want to be"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1272.36,"endTime":1274.1,"body":"performing."},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1274.64,"endTime":1280.22,"body":"That's a really good"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1274.64,"endTime":1280.22,"body":"point. Arthur Brooks, who's a"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1280.22,"endTime":1282.58,"body":"professor of leadership at the"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1280.22,"endTime":1282.58,"body":"Harvard Business School has a"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1282.58,"endTime":1287.2,"body":"really great video on this exact"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1282.58,"endTime":1287.2,"body":"topic. I think it just came out,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1287.2,"endTime":1291.46,"body":"like a month or so ago on"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1287.2,"endTime":1291.46,"body":"YouTube. And he sort of talks"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1291.46,"endTime":1295.3,"body":"about this, you know, the"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1291.46,"endTime":1295.3,"body":"metaphor he uses is this idea of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1295.3,"endTime":1299.8,"body":"the success machine and people"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1295.3,"endTime":1299.8,"body":"seeing themselves as success"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1299.8,"endTime":1303.54,"body":"machines. And his argument in"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1299.8,"endTime":1303.54,"body":"that video is basically that,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1304.2,"endTime":1307.98,"body":"you know, this is kind of like a"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1304.2,"endTime":1307.98,"body":"form of objectifying yourself,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1307.98,"endTime":1312.9,"body":"like reducing yourself to just a"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1307.98,"endTime":1312.9,"body":"non human entity who achieves"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1312.9,"endTime":1318.0,"body":"things, is like a form of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1312.9,"endTime":1318.0,"body":"objectification in a way. And so"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1318.0,"endTime":1322.82,"body":"he's sort of saying, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1318.0,"endTime":1322.82,"body":"existentially, but also"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1322.82,"endTime":1326.84,"body":"potentially morally. It's, it's,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1322.82,"endTime":1326.84,"body":"it's a, it's not necessarily a"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1326.84,"endTime":1331.88,"body":"place you want to be in. In that"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1326.84,"endTime":1331.88,"body":"video, I don't think the thing"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1331.94,"endTime":1334.82,"body":"for me is, I thought that was an"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1331.94,"endTime":1334.82,"body":"amazing analogy. The video kind"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1334.82,"endTime":1336.92,"body":"of ended, though, without too"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1334.82,"endTime":1336.92,"body":"many, too much in the way of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1336.92,"endTime":1341.14,"body":"like, okay, so what do I kind of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1336.92,"endTime":1341.14,"body":"do about that? One thing that I"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1341.14,"endTime":1343.96,"body":"think is bad advice for people"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1341.14,"endTime":1343.96,"body":"who might be struggling with"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1343.96,"endTime":1346.9,"body":"those kind of things is just"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1343.96,"endTime":1346.9,"body":"saying, Well, don't just care"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1346.9,"endTime":1350.14,"body":"less, you know. Just care less"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1346.9,"endTime":1350.14,"body":"about doing well and and"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1350.14,"endTime":1352.54,"body":"everything. Will find it's like"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1350.14,"endTime":1352.54,"body":"telling someone who's who's"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1352.6,"endTime":1355.24,"body":"who's neurotic, like, just, just"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1352.6,"endTime":1355.24,"body":"don't worry about things so"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1355.24,"endTime":1359.92,"body":"much, you know. And I don't"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1355.24,"endTime":1359.92,"body":"think that's necessarily good"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1359.92,"endTime":1362.76,"body":"advice, and the reason why is, I"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1359.92,"endTime":1362.76,"body":"think, that also overlooks the"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1362.76,"endTime":1366.42,"body":"fact that ultimately, and this"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1362.76,"endTime":1366.42,"body":"is something that's true of any"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1366.42,"endTime":1369.18,"body":"kind of identity, and that we've"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1366.42,"endTime":1369.18,"body":"known about identities for over"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1369.18,"endTime":1372.72,"body":"100 years, as identities are"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1369.18,"endTime":1372.72,"body":"ultimately products of your"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1372.72,"endTime":1377.7,"body":"social environment. They're not"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1372.72,"endTime":1377.7,"body":"just things that pop into our"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1377.7,"endTime":1381.68,"body":"heads and you know, through some"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1377.7,"endTime":1381.68,"body":"amazing sort of coincidence the"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1381.68,"endTime":1384.56,"body":"products of our social"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1381.68,"endTime":1384.56,"body":"environments. So if you're if"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1384.56,"endTime":1388.34,"body":"you're someone who is attaching"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1384.56,"endTime":1388.34,"body":"a lot of importance to and"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1388.34,"endTime":1391.76,"body":"making performance a really"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1388.34,"endTime":1391.76,"body":"central part of your life, it's"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1391.76,"endTime":1394.1,"body":"probably got something to do"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1391.76,"endTime":1394.1,"body":"with the kind of people that"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1394.1,"endTime":1396.74,"body":"you're hanging out with and that"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1394.1,"endTime":1396.74,"body":"you surround yourself with most."},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1397.16,"endTime":1401.26,"body":"And so I think I really probably"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1397.16,"endTime":1401.26,"body":"one of the best bits of advice I"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1401.26,"endTime":1404.56,"body":"can give, because I think it's"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1401.26,"endTime":1404.56,"body":"important for people to first"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1404.92,"endTime":1409.24,"body":"identify what those circles"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1404.92,"endTime":1409.24,"body":"might be, and then the second"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1409.24,"endTime":1412.84,"body":"step is to kind of be like,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1409.24,"endTime":1412.84,"body":"Okay, maybe, maybe it's not"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1412.84,"endTime":1416.32,"body":"about necessarily getting rid of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1412.84,"endTime":1416.32,"body":"those circles, but adding in"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1416.32,"endTime":1419.68,"body":"other circles and communities"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1416.32,"endTime":1419.68,"body":"where performance is maybe less"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1419.68,"endTime":1423.3,"body":"of A big deal and there's a"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1419.68,"endTime":1423.3,"body":"different set of values or"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1423.3,"endTime":1427.08,"body":"priorities that are emphasized"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1423.3,"endTime":1427.08,"body":"as important. I think that can"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1427.08,"endTime":1429.66,"body":"be a helpful sort of first step,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1427.08,"endTime":1429.66,"body":"and that's hard to do, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1429.66,"endTime":1433.2,"body":"because our social circles and"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1429.66,"endTime":1433.2,"body":"our communities are not easy"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1433.2,"endTime":1435.42,"body":"things to change. They give"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1433.2,"endTime":1435.42,"body":"stability to our lives. They"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1435.42,"endTime":1438.96,"body":"give us a sensible a sense of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1435.42,"endTime":1438.96,"body":"belonging. But as I said, I"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1438.96,"endTime":1442.82,"body":"don't think they it's a matter"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1438.96,"endTime":1442.82,"body":"of either or, you know, I think"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1442.82,"endTime":1445.64,"body":"it's a matter of getting rid of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1442.82,"endTime":1445.64,"body":"those very performance focused"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1445.64,"endTime":1448.22,"body":"social circles that give a lot"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1445.64,"endTime":1448.22,"body":"of meaning to performance and"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1448.22,"endTime":1451.1,"body":"reinforce it as something that's"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1448.22,"endTime":1451.1,"body":"a really big deal. I think it's"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1451.1,"endTime":1455.78,"body":"more about just adding on other"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1451.1,"endTime":1455.78,"body":"things to kind of, I don't know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1455.78,"endTime":1459.62,"body":"diversify where you get your"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1455.78,"endTime":1459.62,"body":"your sense of meaning and"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1459.62,"endTime":1463.18,"body":"acceptance and some belonging in"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1459.62,"endTime":1463.18,"body":"life, if that makes sense, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1463.18,"endTime":1466.48,"body":"I think that's"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1463.18,"endTime":1466.48,"body":"excellent advice, and it's"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1466.48,"endTime":1470.68,"body":"difficult, because in at least"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1466.48,"endTime":1470.68,"body":"Western culture, everything is"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1470.74,"endTime":1473.8,"body":"reinforcing a performance based"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1470.74,"endTime":1473.8,"body":"identity. Like someone posts on"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1473.8,"endTime":1476.5,"body":"LinkedIn, like, look at this"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1473.8,"endTime":1476.5,"body":"thing I did. Look how many likes"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1476.5,"endTime":1480.96,"body":"I have on social media, even"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1476.5,"endTime":1480.96,"body":"when somebody introduces you,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1481.08,"endTime":1484.62,"body":"like, like, Oh, here's Sonia."},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1481.08,"endTime":1484.62,"body":"She's a world champion mountain"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1484.62,"endTime":1487.68,"body":"biker. It's like, well, I it's"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1484.62,"endTime":1487.68,"body":"something I did, but that's not"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1487.68,"endTime":1491.1,"body":"really who I am. And I don't"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1487.68,"endTime":1491.1,"body":"even like I struggle with this"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1491.1,"endTime":1493.74,"body":"because I don't like asking"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1491.1,"endTime":1493.74,"body":"people what they do for work."},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1494.76,"endTime":1497.1,"body":"And I'll know someone for a"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1494.76,"endTime":1497.1,"body":"while without asking them that,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1497.1,"endTime":1499.68,"body":"because I don't want them to"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1497.1,"endTime":1499.68,"body":"define themselves based on what"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1499.68,"endTime":1502.04,"body":"they do. For work, because"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1499.68,"endTime":1502.04,"body":"that's defining themselves based"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1502.04,"endTime":1505.4,"body":"on performance. So when you have"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1502.04,"endTime":1505.4,"body":"conversations and you even think"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1505.4,"endTime":1508.94,"body":"about how you're defining"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1505.4,"endTime":1508.94,"body":"yourself, it's almost impossible"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1508.94,"endTime":1510.92,"body":"to to get away from that."},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1511.4,"endTime":1513.62,"body":"Yep, and I think"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1511.4,"endTime":1513.62,"body":"that's that's sort of a great"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1513.62,"endTime":1516.38,"body":"counter argument to exactly what"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1513.62,"endTime":1516.38,"body":"I just said is that, yes, you"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1516.38,"endTime":1518.96,"body":"can sort of change communities"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1516.38,"endTime":1518.96,"body":"and circles and things, but"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1518.96,"endTime":1522.7,"body":"ultimately, there is this, and"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1518.96,"endTime":1522.7,"body":"this is something that I, you"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1522.7,"endTime":1527.26,"body":"know, think about a lot, and"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1522.7,"endTime":1527.26,"body":"read about a lot, and also think"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1527.26,"endTime":1530.2,"body":"about how we might be able to do"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1527.26,"endTime":1530.2,"body":"things differently. There is"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1530.2,"endTime":1534.04,"body":"this kind of broader socio"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1530.2,"endTime":1534.04,"body":"cultural pressure to be good at"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1534.04,"endTime":1538.72,"body":"something, you know, and I think"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1534.04,"endTime":1538.72,"body":"it's a bit unfair, too. I think"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1538.72,"endTime":1542.58,"body":"Americans often get a lot of the"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1538.72,"endTime":1542.58,"body":"shoulder. A lot of the blame for"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1542.58,"endTime":1548.58,"body":"this American culture is often"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1542.58,"endTime":1548.58,"body":"held up as, like, prototypical"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1548.64,"endTime":1551.94,"body":"of the sort of individualistic,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1548.64,"endTime":1551.94,"body":"performance, focused, success,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1551.94,"endTime":1555.96,"body":"success culture. And while there"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1551.94,"endTime":1555.96,"body":"might be some truth to that, I"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1555.96,"endTime":1558.6,"body":"think it's I mean, even you"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1555.96,"endTime":1558.6,"body":"know, being in New Zealand,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1558.6,"endTime":1562.58,"body":"having lived in Australia for"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1558.6,"endTime":1562.58,"body":"five years I've seen really"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1562.58,"endTime":1565.28,"body":"similar things, you know, and"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1562.58,"endTime":1565.28,"body":"again, you see it at the"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1565.28,"endTime":1568.58,"body":"LinkedIn, the social media. It's"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1565.28,"endTime":1568.58,"body":"similar, you know, people might"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1568.58,"endTime":1570.86,"body":"say, Well, that's because"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1568.58,"endTime":1570.86,"body":"America is such a dominant"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1570.86,"endTime":1573.74,"body":"cultural force that's kind of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1570.86,"endTime":1573.74,"body":"exported its values to other"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1573.74,"endTime":1576.2,"body":"parts of the world. I think"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1573.74,"endTime":1576.2,"body":"there's really some truth to"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1576.2,"endTime":1579.92,"body":"that. But ultimately, I do think"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1576.2,"endTime":1579.92,"body":"you see this kind of pressures"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1579.92,"endTime":1584.26,"body":"to succeed in lots and lots of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1579.92,"endTime":1584.26,"body":"different societies around the"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1584.26,"endTime":1588.82,"body":"world. So it isn't to your"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1584.26,"endTime":1588.82,"body":"point. It isn't an easy thing to"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1588.82,"endTime":1593.02,"body":"escape. But I do think with a"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1588.82,"endTime":1593.02,"body":"little bit of you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1593.08,"endTime":1597.16,"body":"attention and deliberateness, it"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1593.08,"endTime":1597.16,"body":"is possible to kind of find"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1597.16,"endTime":1600.96,"body":"yourself and move yourself into"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1597.16,"endTime":1600.96,"body":"circles or environments where"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1600.96,"endTime":1604.14,"body":"you're exposed to maybe a"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1600.96,"endTime":1604.14,"body":"different set of values, where"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1604.14,"endTime":1607.5,"body":"maybe it's not so much about"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1604.14,"endTime":1607.5,"body":"performing better than others,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1607.5,"endTime":1610.44,"body":"but doing better than you did"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1607.5,"endTime":1610.44,"body":"previously, you know, so it's"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1610.44,"endTime":1613.98,"body":"more about self improvement and"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1610.44,"endTime":1613.98,"body":"competition and comparison,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1614.82,"endTime":1617.52,"body":"things like that. I mean, that"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1614.82,"endTime":1617.52,"body":"can be a helpful sort of like"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1617.82,"endTime":1620.9,"body":"nicotine patch, I think, for"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1617.82,"endTime":1620.9,"body":"performance addicts, because"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1620.9,"endTime":1624.98,"body":"there's still something related"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1620.9,"endTime":1624.98,"body":"to progress and and and doing"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1624.98,"endTime":1629.54,"body":"well. But if your reference"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1624.98,"endTime":1629.54,"body":"point is yourself, a lot of the"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1629.54,"endTime":1631.58,"body":"time, that's going to,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1629.54,"endTime":1631.58,"body":"especially if it's if it's a new"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1631.58,"endTime":1634.4,"body":"activity you're learning for the"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1631.58,"endTime":1634.4,"body":"first time, it's always going to"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1634.4,"endTime":1637.34,"body":"be a kind of upward slope, you"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1634.4,"endTime":1637.34,"body":"know, where you're regularly"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1637.34,"endTime":1639.98,"body":"getting better and better. I"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1637.34,"endTime":1639.98,"body":"know in the world of sports, it"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1639.98,"endTime":1643.66,"body":"can be quite different, right?"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1639.98,"endTime":1643.66,"body":"Because physicality and things"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1643.66,"endTime":1647.68,"body":"can begin to decline. So it"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1643.66,"endTime":1647.68,"body":"might, might be less helpful of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1647.68,"endTime":1652.0,"body":"an approach in those domains."},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1647.68,"endTime":1652.0,"body":"Yeah, I think that that shifting"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1652.0,"endTime":1655.0,"body":"social, social circles can be"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1652.0,"endTime":1655.0,"body":"helpful. And then at a more like"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1655.0,"endTime":1660.04,"body":"individual level, there's stuff"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1655.0,"endTime":1660.04,"body":"around, like exposure and"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1660.04,"endTime":1663.48,"body":"Response Prevention therapy. I"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1660.04,"endTime":1663.48,"body":"don't know if you've come across"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1663.48,"endTime":1666.36,"body":"that before, but it's like a"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1663.48,"endTime":1666.36,"body":"form of sort of therapy that's"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1666.36,"endTime":1668.82,"body":"used particularly with people"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1666.36,"endTime":1668.82,"body":"who have like obsessive"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1668.82,"endTime":1673.68,"body":"compulsive disorder and and it's"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1668.82,"endTime":1673.68,"body":"basically a form of therapy"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1673.68,"endTime":1676.14,"body":"where you're gradually exposed"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1673.68,"endTime":1676.14,"body":"to whatever it is that really"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1676.14,"endTime":1680.48,"body":"triggers your compulsions to"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1676.14,"endTime":1680.48,"body":"almost, basically to make you"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1680.48,"endTime":1683.54,"body":"bored of it and desensitize you"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1680.48,"endTime":1683.54,"body":"to whatever it is. So for people"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1683.54,"endTime":1688.46,"body":"who are sort of obsessive about"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1683.54,"endTime":1688.46,"body":"performance, I think that line"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1688.46,"endTime":1692.06,"body":"of therapy and thinking as well"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1688.46,"endTime":1692.06,"body":"can also be helpful. And, you"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1692.78,"endTime":1695.3,"body":"know, there's a lot of great"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1692.78,"endTime":1695.3,"body":"resources about that stuff"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1695.3,"endTime":1698.36,"body":"online. And it's not necessarily"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1695.3,"endTime":1698.36,"body":"something, you know, it's"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1698.36,"endTime":1701.62,"body":"something that you can easily"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1698.36,"endTime":1701.62,"body":"start to sort of build into your"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1701.62,"endTime":1705.76,"body":"own life and and make it sort of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1701.62,"endTime":1705.76,"body":"part of your own routines."},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1705.82,"endTime":1709.78,"body":"There's different ways of sort"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1705.82,"endTime":1709.78,"body":"of actioning, I suppose that"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1709.78,"endTime":1713.02,"body":"stuff, but yeah, I think that"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1709.78,"endTime":1713.02,"body":"can be really helpful too."},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1713.02,"endTime":1716.38,"body":"Because ultimately, I think at"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1713.02,"endTime":1716.38,"body":"the at the root of a lot of the"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1716.38,"endTime":1722.64,"body":"stuff is often the kind of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1716.38,"endTime":1722.64,"body":"obsessiveness about a thing. In"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1722.64,"endTime":1725.58,"body":"our case, we're talking about"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1722.64,"endTime":1725.58,"body":"performance, achievement,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1725.58,"endTime":1730.26,"body":"success, status, those sorts of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1725.58,"endTime":1730.26,"body":"things, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1730.26,"endTime":1733.2,"body":"like, how you said"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1730.26,"endTime":1733.2,"body":"to spend time? Like, like, look"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1733.2,"endTime":1735.6,"body":"at your social circle. Look"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1733.2,"endTime":1735.6,"body":"what's being reinforced in your"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1735.6,"endTime":1738.36,"body":"social circle. And I'm just"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1735.6,"endTime":1738.36,"body":"personally thinking about my"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1738.36,"endTime":1741.14,"body":"life, and it's interesting,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1738.36,"endTime":1741.14,"body":"because the people that I spend"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1741.14,"endTime":1743.9,"body":"the most time around, and that"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1741.14,"endTime":1743.9,"body":"are my closest friends, have"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1743.9,"endTime":1747.2,"body":"nothing to do with cycling."},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1743.9,"endTime":1747.2,"body":"Yeah, it's from all these"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1747.2,"endTime":1752.12,"body":"different areas. Probably it was"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1747.2,"endTime":1752.12,"body":"not on purpose, but it probably"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1752.12,"endTime":1756.2,"body":"has helped me to just have some"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1752.12,"endTime":1756.2,"body":"diversity in what we talk about,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1756.2,"endTime":1758.96,"body":"what I think about, how people,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1756.2,"endTime":1758.96,"body":"I mean, people still might view"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1758.96,"endTime":1762.22,"body":"me as like, Oh, you did this."},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1758.96,"endTime":1762.22,"body":"You do these things, but they"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1762.22,"endTime":1764.98,"body":"are talking to you for who you"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1762.22,"endTime":1764.98,"body":"are. Like, when you're walking"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1764.98,"endTime":1767.2,"body":"around your neighborhood, it's a"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1764.98,"endTime":1767.2,"body":"different vibe than if you're"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1767.2,"endTime":1770.68,"body":"walking around at, like, maybe a"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1767.2,"endTime":1770.68,"body":"conference or at a race or like,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1770.68,"endTime":1772.18,"body":"whatever people know you for."},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1772.78,"endTime":1777.22,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1772.78,"endTime":1777.22,"body":"And I think it's like, I always"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1777.22,"endTime":1786.3,"body":"think that there is a bit of a"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1777.22,"endTime":1786.3,"body":"bit of a myth, or a sort of a"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1786.3,"endTime":1793.8,"body":"sort of commonly accepted belief"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1786.3,"endTime":1793.8,"body":"amongst amongst people, that in"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1793.8,"endTime":1799.44,"body":"order to succeed, you need to"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1793.8,"endTime":1799.44,"body":"care a lot about success, and"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1799.44,"endTime":1802.76,"body":"the more you. Care about"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1799.44,"endTime":1802.76,"body":"succeeding, the more likely you"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1802.76,"endTime":1806.96,"body":"are to succeed. And I don't"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1802.76,"endTime":1806.96,"body":"think that's actually true. I"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1806.96,"endTime":1810.26,"body":"think definitely there needs to"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1806.96,"endTime":1810.26,"body":"be a degree of caring about"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1810.26,"endTime":1813.74,"body":"succeeding. It also, I guess,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1810.26,"endTime":1813.74,"body":"depends on what you define as"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1813.74,"endTime":1817.88,"body":"success, to a degree. But I"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1813.74,"endTime":1817.88,"body":"don't think the link between"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1818.3,"endTime":1822.58,"body":"caring about success and"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1818.3,"endTime":1822.58,"body":"actually succeeding is as strong"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1822.58,"endTime":1826.84,"body":"as most people think it is. And"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1822.58,"endTime":1826.84,"body":"I think too, like, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1826.84,"endTime":1830.92,"body":"some of the research that's on"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1826.84,"endTime":1830.92,"body":"goal orientation and the"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1830.92,"endTime":1834.22,"body":"different goals people can set"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1830.92,"endTime":1834.22,"body":"themselves is kind of, I think,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1834.22,"endTime":1838.9,"body":"pointed to the fact that"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1834.22,"endTime":1838.9,"body":"actually caring about success"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1838.9,"endTime":1842.1,"body":"and caring about your"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1838.9,"endTime":1842.1,"body":"performance can can backfire"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1842.1,"endTime":1847.74,"body":"more than it can help you in a"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1842.1,"endTime":1847.74,"body":"lot of situations. So sometimes,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1847.74,"endTime":1853.08,"body":"to people realizing that that"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1847.74,"endTime":1853.08,"body":"actually to be successful, you"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1853.08,"endTime":1858.36,"body":"don't necessarily have to care a"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1853.08,"endTime":1858.36,"body":"lot about being successful, that"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1858.36,"endTime":1861.74,"body":"can kind of help as well. And to"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1858.36,"endTime":1861.74,"body":"know that there is, there is a"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1861.74,"endTime":1865.04,"body":"lot of good evidence that would,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1861.74,"endTime":1865.04,"body":"I would say, support that point."},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1866.48,"endTime":1869.0,"body":"Sometimes that can be a sort of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1866.48,"endTime":1869.0,"body":"powerful realization, because"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1869.0,"endTime":1872.24,"body":"people might have a very strong"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1869.0,"endTime":1872.24,"body":"association between those two"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1872.24,"endTime":1876.92,"body":"things that they sort of need to"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1872.24,"endTime":1876.92,"body":"wind back and and weaken in a"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1876.92,"endTime":1878.3,"body":"way that's kind"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1878.3,"endTime":1881.56,"body":"of like defining"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1878.3,"endTime":1881.56,"body":"success as a needed outcome,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1881.62,"endTime":1885.52,"body":"which you may or may not have"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1881.62,"endTime":1885.52,"body":"control over, and if you're"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1885.52,"endTime":1889.42,"body":"always focused on some outcome,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1885.52,"endTime":1889.42,"body":"then you're going to be tight."},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1889.48,"endTime":1892.3,"body":"You're going to be really"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1889.48,"endTime":1892.3,"body":"focusing on yourself too much,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1892.3,"endTime":1894.52,"body":"and you're going to forget why"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1892.3,"endTime":1894.52,"body":"you're doing something in the"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1894.52,"endTime":1897.64,"body":"first place, and you're probably"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1894.52,"endTime":1897.64,"body":"not going to be as focused on"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1897.64,"endTime":1900.78,"body":"the task at hand. You're going"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1897.64,"endTime":1900.78,"body":"to be focused on how am I doing"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1900.9,"endTime":1902.46,"body":"instead of what am I doing?"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1903.12,"endTime":1905.4,"body":"That's it,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1903.12,"endTime":1905.4,"body":"absolutely. And there's all this"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1905.4,"endTime":1908.88,"body":"sort of research too. And I"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1905.4,"endTime":1908.88,"body":"think I'm seeing sort of popular"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1908.88,"endTime":1912.06,"body":"books coming out that kind of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1908.88,"endTime":1912.06,"body":"get at this point as well, about"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1912.06,"endTime":1916.8,"body":"returning to viewing our"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1912.06,"endTime":1916.8,"body":"activities, our work, even our"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1916.8,"endTime":1921.98,"body":"sports, as crafts, you know, and"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1916.8,"endTime":1921.98,"body":"looking at them as things that"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1921.98,"endTime":1926.54,"body":"we do because they're enjoyable"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1921.98,"endTime":1926.54,"body":"and we like the process as"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1926.54,"endTime":1933.74,"body":"opposed to the outcome. I think"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1926.54,"endTime":1933.74,"body":"that ultimately is probably a"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1933.74,"endTime":1936.98,"body":"more, I mean, that can, I guess,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1933.74,"endTime":1936.98,"body":"has it has its own dark side"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1936.98,"endTime":1940.78,"body":"sometimes, but ultimately, I"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1936.98,"endTime":1940.78,"body":"think it's probably a lot more"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1940.78,"endTime":1944.2,"body":"sustainable and probably"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1940.78,"endTime":1944.2,"body":"rewarding to relate to the"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1944.2,"endTime":1948.94,"body":"things you do, more as a craft"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1944.2,"endTime":1948.94,"body":"than just as a another vehicle"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1948.94,"endTime":1954.58,"body":"for achievements and, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1948.94,"endTime":1954.58,"body":"outcomes. I think that that"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1954.58,"endTime":1957.88,"body":"shift in mindset can be, like"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1954.58,"endTime":1957.88,"body":"you say, really helpful as well"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1959.44,"endTime":1962.7,"body":"taking attention off the self"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1959.44,"endTime":1962.7,"body":"and more on the, you know, the"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1962.7,"endTime":1965.28,"body":"actual doing that leads to the"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1962.7,"endTime":1965.28,"body":"outcome."},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1966.66,"endTime":1969.3,"body":"Yeah, I love, kind"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1966.66,"endTime":1969.3,"body":"of just going deep into these"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1969.3,"endTime":1971.64,"body":"things. So if you're and then,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1969.3,"endTime":1971.64,"body":"and then you can become too"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1971.64,"endTime":1974.76,"body":"focused on the doing that you"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1971.64,"endTime":1974.76,"body":"start over doing. And I've"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1974.76,"endTime":1977.58,"body":"thought about, you know, Carol"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1974.76,"endTime":1977.58,"body":"Dweck work a lot on fixing"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1977.58,"endTime":1980.28,"body":"growth mindset, and I probably"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1977.58,"endTime":1980.28,"body":"am taking it out of context"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1980.28,"endTime":1983.78,"body":"here, but like, if you're"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1980.28,"endTime":1983.78,"body":"focused on the effort, then the"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1983.78,"endTime":1987.68,"body":"effort becomes the outcome,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1983.78,"endTime":1987.68,"body":"almost it's like, well, I'm I'm"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1987.68,"endTime":1991.22,"body":"putting in the maximum amount of"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1987.68,"endTime":1991.22,"body":"effort at all times, and now"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1991.22,"endTime":1993.86,"body":"you're overworking. The type of"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1991.22,"endTime":1993.86,"body":"work you're producing isn't very"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1993.86,"endTime":1996.02,"body":"good, and you're just burning"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":1993.86,"endTime":1996.02,"body":"yourself out."},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1996.86,"endTime":2000.18,"body":"Yeah, and I think"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":1996.86,"endTime":2000.18,"body":"again, that is something that"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2000.18,"endTime":2004.62,"body":"I've heard a lot from people in"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2000.18,"endTime":2004.62,"body":"those jobs where performance is"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2004.62,"endTime":2008.94,"body":"really hard to define and it's"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2004.62,"endTime":2008.94,"body":"unclear. I think in those sort"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2008.94,"endTime":2013.02,"body":"of jobs, there is this because"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2008.94,"endTime":2013.02,"body":"performance is so kind of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2013.02,"endTime":2016.08,"body":"invisible and hard to put your"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2013.02,"endTime":2016.08,"body":"finger on, a lot of people just"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2016.08,"endTime":2020.04,"body":"revert to effort to figure out"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2016.08,"endTime":2020.04,"body":"how well they're doing. And so"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2020.04,"endTime":2022.52,"body":"this is where you get people"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2020.04,"endTime":2022.52,"body":"working. You know, 80 hour"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2022.52,"endTime":2027.8,"body":"weeks, just crazy hours, because"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2022.52,"endTime":2027.8,"body":"it makes them feel successful,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2027.8,"endTime":2030.14,"body":"because they don't really have"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2027.8,"endTime":2030.14,"body":"any kind of, like, clear or"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2030.2,"endTime":2033.86,"body":"objective measure. But"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2030.2,"endTime":2033.86,"body":"ultimately, I mean, maybe there"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2033.86,"endTime":2037.4,"body":"is, there is achievement"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2033.86,"endTime":2037.4,"body":"happening in there, but the long"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2037.4,"endTime":2042.52,"body":"term consequences, I think we"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2037.4,"endTime":2042.52,"body":"know from from evidence on work,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2042.52,"endTime":2045.94,"body":"Ill ism and burnout and things"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2042.52,"endTime":2045.94,"body":"the long term consequences are"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2045.94,"endTime":2050.74,"body":"usually not great. But yeah, it"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2045.94,"endTime":2050.74,"body":"is very tempting, I think,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2050.74,"endTime":2053.8,"body":"especially in context where"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2050.74,"endTime":2053.8,"body":"performance is ever defined, to"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2053.8,"endTime":2057.94,"body":"revert to effort as you're sort"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2053.8,"endTime":2057.94,"body":"of, you know, a proxy for"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2057.94,"endTime":2062.1,"body":"performance and achievement. But"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2057.94,"endTime":2062.1,"body":"yeah, it's a slippery slope,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2063.48,"endTime":2067.74,"body":"like the effort is"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2063.48,"endTime":2067.74,"body":"not a proxy for performance. I"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2067.86,"endTime":2075.3,"body":"tell myself that sometimes, how"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2067.86,"endTime":2075.3,"body":"do things like perfectionism,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2075.3,"endTime":2077.7,"body":"where it's which is"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2075.3,"endTime":2077.7,"body":"characterized by excessive"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2077.7,"endTime":2081.8,"body":"striving and nothing ever being"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2077.7,"endTime":2081.8,"body":"enough, or imposter phenomena"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2081.8,"endTime":2084.68,"body":"where people can't internalize"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2081.8,"endTime":2084.68,"body":"their success, even if they're"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2084.68,"endTime":2086.78,"body":"doing well and they're worried"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2084.68,"endTime":2086.78,"body":"about other what other people"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2086.78,"endTime":2089.78,"body":"think about them, like, how does"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2086.78,"endTime":2089.78,"body":"all that play under the umbrella"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2089.78,"endTime":2091.34,"body":"of a performance based identity?"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2092.42,"endTime":2096.14,"body":"So I think that that"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2092.42,"endTime":2096.14,"body":"perfectionism stuff, usually"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2096.14,"endTime":2098.84,"body":"people talk about perfectionism"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2096.14,"endTime":2098.84,"body":"as a kind of trait, like an"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2098.84,"endTime":2103.54,"body":"individual difference. Stat is"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2098.84,"endTime":2103.54,"body":"reasonably stable throughout"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2103.54,"endTime":2109.48,"body":"people's adult lives. And I"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2103.54,"endTime":2109.48,"body":"think that is absolutely those"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2109.48,"endTime":2112.42,"body":"kind of traits, whether it's"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2109.48,"endTime":2112.42,"body":"perfectionism, whether it's, you"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2112.42,"endTime":2116.86,"body":"know, need for achievement,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2112.42,"endTime":2116.86,"body":"whether it's conscientiousness,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2116.86,"endTime":2119.62,"body":"one of the sort of big five"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2116.86,"endTime":2119.62,"body":"traits people might have heard"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2119.62,"endTime":2122.82,"body":"about, I think all of those kind"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2119.62,"endTime":2122.82,"body":"of traits and that that"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2122.82,"endTime":2127.62,"body":"personality sort of profile as a"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2122.82,"endTime":2127.62,"body":"whole, is probably a lot more"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2128.88,"endTime":2132.9,"body":"just, just inherently more"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2128.88,"endTime":2132.9,"body":"likely to develop, I think these"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2132.9,"endTime":2135.24,"body":"kind of performance based"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2132.9,"endTime":2135.24,"body":"identities, well, sorry, I"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2135.24,"endTime":2138.06,"body":"should actually check myself"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2135.24,"endTime":2138.06,"body":"there. I think they're a lot"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2138.06,"endTime":2145.16,"body":"more likely to attach personal"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2138.06,"endTime":2145.16,"body":"meanings to performance, where"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2145.16,"endTime":2148.58,"body":"they might struggle is with"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2145.16,"endTime":2148.58,"body":"developing the label. Part of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2148.64,"endTime":2152.42,"body":"it, the self knowledge, part of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2148.64,"endTime":2152.42,"body":"it, because that you know"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2152.54,"endTime":2156.08,"body":"something like perfectionism,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2152.54,"endTime":2156.08,"body":"nothing is ever good enough,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2156.08,"endTime":2159.56,"body":"right? You're trying to be, if"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2156.08,"endTime":2159.56,"body":"you're trying to be the perfect"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2159.62,"endTime":2162.7,"body":"performer, that that's probably"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2159.62,"endTime":2162.7,"body":"a destination you're never"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2162.7,"endTime":2167.44,"body":"really going to going to get to."},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2162.7,"endTime":2167.44,"body":"Nevertheless, the torment of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2167.44,"endTime":2169.84,"body":"that, I think, is that"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2167.44,"endTime":2169.84,"body":"performance is so important to"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2169.84,"endTime":2172.66,"body":"you. It's a bit like that thing"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2169.84,"endTime":2172.66,"body":"of the, you know, the donkey"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2172.66,"endTime":2175.48,"body":"with the carrot on the stick in"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2172.66,"endTime":2175.48,"body":"front of them, always walking"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2175.48,"endTime":2177.82,"body":"towards it, but never really"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2175.48,"endTime":2177.82,"body":"getting the satisfaction of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2177.82,"endTime":2180.66,"body":"eating it. I think it's a"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2177.82,"endTime":2180.66,"body":"similar thing when it comes to"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2180.96,"endTime":2183.6,"body":"perfectionists and these sort of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2180.96,"endTime":2183.6,"body":"identities,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2184.56,"endTime":2186.36,"body":"and then the"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2184.56,"endTime":2186.36,"body":"donkey gets the carrot and is"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2186.36,"endTime":2189.48,"body":"like, this, carrot isn't good"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2186.36,"endTime":2189.48,"body":"enough. It's not the perfect"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2189.66,"endTime":2190.56,"body":"crunchiness."},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2191.28,"endTime":2193.56,"body":"Sometimes that"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2191.28,"endTime":2193.56,"body":"happens too, right? People do"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2193.56,"endTime":2196.62,"body":"get it, but it's fleeting and"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2193.56,"endTime":2196.62,"body":"momentary and ultimately, maybe"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2196.62,"endTime":2200.72,"body":"disappointing. So yeah, I think"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2196.62,"endTime":2200.72,"body":"all of that sort of those kind"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2200.72,"endTime":2206.24,"body":"of traits can definitely would"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2200.72,"endTime":2206.24,"body":"be a they're sort of like in"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2206.24,"endTime":2209.18,"body":"research terms, we'd say they're"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2206.24,"endTime":2209.18,"body":"part of the nomological network,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2209.3,"endTime":2213.38,"body":"which is basically just saying"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2209.3,"endTime":2213.38,"body":"the factors that move together,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2213.38,"endTime":2216.92,"body":"that hang out with performance"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2213.38,"endTime":2216.92,"body":"based identities, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2216.92,"endTime":2220.78,"body":"they're they're things that live"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2216.92,"endTime":2220.78,"body":"in the same neighborhood as one"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2220.78,"endTime":2225.34,"body":"another. So you tend to see"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2220.78,"endTime":2225.34,"body":"them, a lot happening together,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2225.4,"endTime":2229.36,"body":"basically. And then with"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2225.4,"endTime":2229.36,"body":"imposter syndrome, it's an"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2229.36,"endTime":2233.8,"body":"interesting one, because I think"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2229.36,"endTime":2233.8,"body":"you know, if I frame that in"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2233.8,"endTime":2237.88,"body":"this, this performance based"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2233.8,"endTime":2237.88,"body":"identity language, imposter"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2237.88,"endTime":2241.74,"body":"syndrome is really a failure to"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2237.88,"endTime":2241.74,"body":"develop a performance based"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2241.74,"endTime":2246.54,"body":"identity where one is really"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2241.74,"endTime":2246.54,"body":"actually warranted, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2246.54,"endTime":2249.9,"body":"so, so where it would actually"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2246.54,"endTime":2249.9,"body":"make sense to have some sort of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2250.26,"endTime":2255.42,"body":"identity as being good at what"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2250.26,"endTime":2255.42,"body":"you do. But it's not happening"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2255.48,"endTime":2258.48,"body":"for whatever reason, right? I"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2255.48,"endTime":2258.48,"body":"think that is ultimately sort of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2258.48,"endTime":2260.84,"body":"the root of imposter syndrome,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2258.48,"endTime":2260.84,"body":"and then people, because of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2260.84,"endTime":2264.56,"body":"that, because they haven't"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2260.84,"endTime":2264.56,"body":"internalized their success, as"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2264.56,"endTime":2269.12,"body":"they say, you have these"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2264.56,"endTime":2269.12,"body":"feelings of feeling like a fraud"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2269.12,"endTime":2271.28,"body":"and like you're not good enough,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2269.12,"endTime":2271.28,"body":"and that you're going to be"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2271.28,"endTime":2275.36,"body":"found out, and all that kind of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2271.28,"endTime":2275.36,"body":"stuff. So yeah, I think again,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2275.54,"endTime":2279.86,"body":"the closely related ideas, and I"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2275.54,"endTime":2279.86,"body":"think that that performance"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2279.86,"endTime":2284.14,"body":"based identity thing kind of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2279.86,"endTime":2284.14,"body":"just, just helps to it helps to"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2284.14,"endTime":2287.38,"body":"give a way of explaining, I"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2284.14,"endTime":2287.38,"body":"guess, why that happens. You"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2287.38,"endTime":2293.02,"body":"know, why we have imposter"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2287.38,"endTime":2293.02,"body":"syndrome? And, you know, there"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2293.02,"endTime":2296.86,"body":"can be lots of reasons why"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2293.02,"endTime":2296.86,"body":"people don't develop performance"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2296.86,"endTime":2299.8,"body":"based identities. Part of it"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2296.86,"endTime":2299.8,"body":"might be something like"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2299.8,"endTime":2302.64,"body":"perfectionism, where even if"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2299.8,"endTime":2302.64,"body":"they are really good, they're"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2302.64,"endTime":2306.78,"body":"not perfect, and because their"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2302.64,"endTime":2306.78,"body":"ideal self is someone who's, you"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2306.78,"endTime":2312.12,"body":"know, the perfect performer,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2306.78,"endTime":2312.12,"body":"they they never really like,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2312.12,"endTime":2315.42,"body":"feel like they can actually"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2312.12,"endTime":2315.42,"body":"claim that identity, you know."},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2315.42,"endTime":2317.82,"body":"And on the one hand, I mean, you"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2315.42,"endTime":2317.82,"body":"kind of think about, you know, I"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2317.82,"endTime":2321.14,"body":"think about athletes like, like"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2317.82,"endTime":2321.14,"body":"Coby Bryant, for example, I"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2321.14,"endTime":2324.62,"body":"think was really infamous for"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2321.14,"endTime":2324.62,"body":"having that kind of mentality."},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2324.62,"endTime":2327.92,"body":"You know, it can, from one"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2324.62,"endTime":2327.92,"body":"standpoint, I think it can be"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2327.92,"endTime":2331.58,"body":"something that creates a sort of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2327.92,"endTime":2331.58,"body":"perpetual drive to be better and"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2331.58,"endTime":2335.0,"body":"improve and succeed. And even if"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2331.58,"endTime":2335.0,"body":"you never really get there,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2335.0,"endTime":2338.78,"body":"you're still constantly getting"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2335.0,"endTime":2338.78,"body":"better. So I think it can have"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2338.78,"endTime":2343.36,"body":"that sort of productive outcome,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2338.78,"endTime":2343.36,"body":"but then also the the other side"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2343.36,"endTime":2345.82,"body":"of that coin is all the things"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2343.36,"endTime":2345.82,"body":"we've talked about around sort"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2345.82,"endTime":2349.18,"body":"of obsessiveness and"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2345.82,"endTime":2349.18,"body":"workitalism, burnout and so on."},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2350.44,"endTime":2353.92,"body":"It almost sounds"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2350.44,"endTime":2353.92,"body":"like how you define success. It"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2354.04,"endTime":2358.12,"body":"is kind of a key indicator of if"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2354.04,"endTime":2358.12,"body":"a performance based identity is"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2358.18,"endTime":2362.28,"body":"harmful or hurtful, or harmful"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2358.18,"endTime":2362.28,"body":"or helpful to you, like, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2362.28,"endTime":2366.06,"body":"if you're, if your success is an"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2362.28,"endTime":2366.06,"body":"outcome, then you're, you're not"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2366.06,"endTime":2368.64,"body":"going to feel satisfied, and"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2366.06,"endTime":2368.64,"body":"it's going to be not good for"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2368.64,"endTime":2372.72,"body":"you. Yeah, totally."},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2368.64,"endTime":2372.72,"body":"I think it's a, it's a really"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2373.14,"endTime":2378.96,"body":"valid point if your ideal self"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2373.14,"endTime":2378.96,"body":"is to be the best at whatever,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2379.38,"endTime":2383.24,"body":"you know, the thing is, in the"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2379.38,"endTime":2383.24,"body":"world that is a really, really"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2383.48,"endTime":2387.2,"body":"it's the bullseye on the the"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2383.48,"endTime":2387.2,"body":"target, you know, it's a really"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2387.2,"endTime":2392.72,"body":"narrow thing to hit. The upside"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2387.2,"endTime":2392.72,"body":"of that can be like, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2392.72,"endTime":2395.72,"body":"like we talked about more"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2392.72,"endTime":2395.72,"body":"motivation, sort of perpetual"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2395.78,"endTime":2398.72,"body":"desire to be better. But the"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2395.78,"endTime":2398.72,"body":"downside is you never really get"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2398.72,"endTime":2402.22,"body":"any satisfaction. Actually."},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2398.72,"endTime":2402.22,"body":"Getting there. So having a"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2402.22,"endTime":2406.6,"body":"broader sort of ideal self or"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2402.22,"endTime":2406.6,"body":"target might be, you know, less"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2406.6,"endTime":2409.42,"body":"helpful for motivation, but"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2406.6,"endTime":2409.42,"body":"maybe more helpful in terms of,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2409.42,"endTime":2413.32,"body":"just like, general life"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2409.42,"endTime":2413.32,"body":"satisfaction and well being and"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2413.86,"endTime":2419.14,"body":"happiness. You know, yeah, I'm"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2413.86,"endTime":2419.14,"body":"not the best, but I'm reasonably"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2419.14,"endTime":2424.38,"body":"good, and that's kind of enough"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2419.14,"endTime":2424.38,"body":"for me. It's this great book"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2424.44,"endTime":2429.54,"body":"I've been reading by an author"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2424.44,"endTime":2429.54,"body":"called Avraham Alpe. I think his"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2429.54,"endTime":2432.6,"body":"name is, and it's called the"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2429.54,"endTime":2432.6,"body":"good enough not the good enough"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2432.6,"endTime":2436.56,"body":"life. And he basically makes"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2432.6,"endTime":2436.56,"body":"this argument, not just for"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2436.56,"endTime":2440.72,"body":"individuals, but for how we"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2436.56,"endTime":2440.72,"body":"think about community, societies"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2440.72,"endTime":2445.16,"body":"as a whole, that that may be"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2440.72,"endTime":2445.16,"body":"good enough should be the sort"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2445.16,"endTime":2449.78,"body":"of goal that we idealize and set"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2445.16,"endTime":2449.78,"body":"as our central goal, as opposed"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2449.78,"endTime":2455.36,"body":"to perpetual growth or perpetual"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2449.78,"endTime":2455.36,"body":"success. You know, maybe good"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2455.36,"endTime":2461.74,"body":"enough is good enough as"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2455.36,"endTime":2461.74,"body":"something to strive for, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2461.74,"endTime":2463.84,"body":"something that"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2461.74,"endTime":2463.84,"body":"I've been kind of arguing for"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2463.84,"endTime":2466.96,"body":"the last couple of years is how"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2463.84,"endTime":2466.96,"body":"growth can't be the only goal,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2466.96,"endTime":2470.2,"body":"because with everything, even if"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2466.96,"endTime":2470.2,"body":"you're pursuing mastery, there"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2470.2,"endTime":2474.04,"body":"are very long plateaus and maybe"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2470.2,"endTime":2474.04,"body":"plateaus where you can't even"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2474.28,"endTime":2477.46,"body":"measure the improvement, because"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2474.28,"endTime":2477.46,"body":"you've been at it for so long."},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2478.12,"endTime":2482.82,"body":"Yeah, yeah. I think"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2478.12,"endTime":2482.82,"body":"that's a great point. And there"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2482.82,"endTime":2485.46,"body":"does seem to, you know, there"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2482.82,"endTime":2485.46,"body":"needs to be, I think, something"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2486.18,"endTime":2490.8,"body":"beyond just the superficial"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2486.18,"endTime":2490.8,"body":"stuff, you know, the indicators,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2490.8,"endTime":2494.1,"body":"the observable outcomes and"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2490.8,"endTime":2494.1,"body":"achievements, that's it's"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2494.1,"endTime":2496.74,"body":"guiding whatever it is you're"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2494.1,"endTime":2496.74,"body":"doing. So, yeah, I really"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2497.94,"endTime":2500.42,"body":"would agree with"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2497.94,"endTime":2500.42,"body":"that. I think that comes right"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2500.42,"endTime":2503.66,"body":"back to what you were saying"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2500.42,"endTime":2503.66,"body":"about the people you surround"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2503.66,"endTime":2507.8,"body":"yourself with, and being a"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2503.66,"endTime":2507.8,"body":"person who can impact other"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2507.8,"endTime":2511.52,"body":"people that so it's not just"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2507.8,"endTime":2511.52,"body":"about you or growing or being"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2511.7,"endTime":2514.52,"body":"you know the best at something,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2511.7,"endTime":2514.52,"body":"and this is what my work has"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2514.52,"endTime":2517.4,"body":"been. It's how do my"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2514.52,"endTime":2517.4,"body":"accomplishments impact others"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2517.4,"endTime":2521.86,"body":"and and how can that be"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2517.4,"endTime":2521.86,"body":"beneficial to my satisfaction"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2521.86,"endTime":2525.04,"body":"Well, being past how good I am"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2521.86,"endTime":2525.04,"body":"at something?"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2525.94,"endTime":2530.14,"body":"Yeah, totally. And I"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2525.94,"endTime":2530.14,"body":"think, you know, sometimes too,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2530.14,"endTime":2535.0,"body":"you can, kind of, you can kind"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2530.14,"endTime":2535.0,"body":"of make that if the activity"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2535.0,"endTime":2539.38,"body":"that you're setting your mind to"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2535.0,"endTime":2539.38,"body":"is something that is going to to"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2539.38,"endTime":2542.4,"body":"benefit others, you can kind of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2539.38,"endTime":2542.4,"body":"make that work, I think, with a"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2542.4,"endTime":2546.06,"body":"performance based identity, you"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2542.4,"endTime":2546.06,"body":"know. Because if the outcome, if"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2546.06,"endTime":2549.84,"body":"good performance for you is"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2546.06,"endTime":2549.84,"body":"seeing, you know, like I think"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2549.84,"endTime":2553.68,"body":"about my job and as a teacher,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2549.84,"endTime":2553.68,"body":"good performance for me is"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2553.68,"endTime":2557.76,"body":"seeing an idea click with a"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2553.68,"endTime":2557.76,"body":"student and seeing them just"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2557.76,"endTime":2560.42,"body":"push to think that next level"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2557.76,"endTime":2560.42,"body":"deeper about whatever it is. The"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2560.42,"endTime":2565.04,"body":"topic is, you know, and so for"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2560.42,"endTime":2565.04,"body":"me, if that's, that's my idea of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2565.04,"endTime":2569.72,"body":"success, then caring a lot about"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2565.04,"endTime":2569.72,"body":"that kind of works, because"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2569.72,"endTime":2573.5,"body":"there's a broader benefit beyond"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2569.72,"endTime":2573.5,"body":"me. And I think that's kind of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2573.5,"endTime":2574.28,"body":"what you're saying, right,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2574.76,"endTime":2578.36,"body":"exactly. And I'll"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2574.76,"endTime":2578.36,"body":"bring the athletic context into"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2578.36,"endTime":2581.2,"body":"it, like, maybe one of your"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2578.36,"endTime":2581.2,"body":"goals is to be the best that you"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2581.2,"endTime":2584.56,"body":"can be at a sport, but in doing"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2581.2,"endTime":2584.56,"body":"so, you will impact others like"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2584.56,"endTime":2586.78,"body":"you're setting an example for"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2584.56,"endTime":2586.78,"body":"other people, you're role"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2586.78,"endTime":2590.08,"body":"modeling. And so being on the"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2586.78,"endTime":2590.08,"body":"lookout for how that's actually"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2590.08,"endTime":2593.74,"body":"impacting other people, instead"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2590.08,"endTime":2593.74,"body":"of how good am I doing, that can"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2593.74,"endTime":2597.52,"body":"bring an entire other level of"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2593.74,"endTime":2597.52,"body":"satisfaction. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2597.64,"endTime":2601.2,"body":"that's a really good"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2597.64,"endTime":2601.2,"body":"example, and it's essentially, I"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2601.2,"endTime":2604.98,"body":"think the the shift is"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2601.2,"endTime":2604.98,"body":"performances becomes a means to"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2604.98,"endTime":2608.7,"body":"an end there, right? It's not"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2604.98,"endTime":2608.7,"body":"performance as an end in itself,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2608.7,"endTime":2614.52,"body":"just because succeeding is"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2608.7,"endTime":2614.52,"body":"inherently good. It's, it's"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2614.52,"endTime":2618.96,"body":"shifting from seeing performance"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2614.52,"endTime":2618.96,"body":"as a way to get to some broader,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2619.02,"endTime":2621.14,"body":"like you said, some broader"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2619.02,"endTime":2621.14,"body":"outcome, whether it's helping"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2621.14,"endTime":2625.22,"body":"others, whether it's role"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2621.14,"endTime":2625.22,"body":"modeling, inspiration, whatever"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2625.22,"endTime":2628.46,"body":"it is. So, yeah, I think, I"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2625.22,"endTime":2628.46,"body":"think there's a lot to do that,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2628.52,"endTime":2631.52,"body":"you know, and taking that"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2628.52,"endTime":2631.52,"body":"zooming out, and taking that"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2631.52,"endTime":2635.06,"body":"broader perspective on, why is"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2631.52,"endTime":2635.06,"body":"it that I'm actually doing this"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2635.06,"endTime":2638.78,"body":"and trying to be good at this?"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2635.06,"endTime":2638.78,"body":"What is the ultimate sort of end"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2638.78,"endTime":2642.64,"body":"goal? There's a lot of value to"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2638.78,"endTime":2642.64,"body":"to engaging in that kind of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2642.64,"endTime":2644.2,"body":"reflection. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2644.2,"endTime":2647.38,"body":"something that I'm"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2644.2,"endTime":2647.38,"body":"very interested in is just our"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2647.38,"endTime":2650.5,"body":"self narratives and how that"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2647.38,"endTime":2650.5,"body":"changes, how we view the world,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2650.5,"endTime":2654.1,"body":"how we view ourselves. So in the"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2650.5,"endTime":2654.1,"body":"context of performance, the"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2654.1,"endTime":2656.38,"body":"things that you are saying to"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2654.1,"endTime":2656.38,"body":"yourself, the way that you're"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2656.38,"endTime":2659.62,"body":"defining success, the way that"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2656.38,"endTime":2659.62,"body":"you're that you're pursuing"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2659.62,"endTime":2663.9,"body":"things, am I looking inward? Am"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2659.62,"endTime":2663.9,"body":"I looking outward? Am I looking"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2664.2,"endTime":2667.02,"body":"am I comparing myself to others"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2664.2,"endTime":2667.02,"body":"constantly? Like all of those"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2667.02,"endTime":2671.28,"body":"things play such a key role. And"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2667.02,"endTime":2671.28,"body":"what is underneath all that is"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2671.46,"endTime":2674.76,"body":"how well you know yourself, how"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2671.46,"endTime":2674.76,"body":"aware am I of the things I'm"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2674.76,"endTime":2675.78,"body":"even telling myself,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2676.32,"endTime":2678.72,"body":"yeah, yeah, I"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2676.32,"endTime":2678.72,"body":"totally agree with it. It's"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2678.72,"endTime":2684.26,"body":"something too, like just taking"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2678.72,"endTime":2684.26,"body":"my my academic hat still kind of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2684.26,"endTime":2686.9,"body":"on, but taking it off for a"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2684.26,"endTime":2686.9,"body":"second, I think, like this year,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2686.9,"endTime":2690.62,"body":"I've been on sabbatical, so I've"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2686.9,"endTime":2690.62,"body":"sort of been on lighter duties."},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2690.62,"endTime":2694.28,"body":"I haven't had to do as much"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2690.62,"endTime":2694.28,"body":"teaching and sort of service"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2694.28,"endTime":2698.84,"body":"stuff around the university."},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2694.28,"endTime":2698.84,"body":"And, you know, I've been working"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2698.84,"endTime":2702.88,"body":"as an academic now for. For six"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2698.84,"endTime":2702.88,"body":"years since finishing my PhD,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2703.42,"endTime":2706.96,"body":"and this was like the first year"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2703.42,"endTime":2706.96,"body":"where, because I had their"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2706.96,"endTime":2711.22,"body":"breathing room, I actually felt"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2706.96,"endTime":2711.22,"body":"like I could think for a second."},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2711.22,"endTime":2715.3,"body":"I could pause and be like, Hold"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2711.22,"endTime":2715.3,"body":"on. What's important to me"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2715.3,"endTime":2718.96,"body":"again? Like, why am I doing this"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2715.3,"endTime":2718.96,"body":"research project and this one"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2718.96,"endTime":2722.46,"body":"and this one, and why am I"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2718.96,"endTime":2722.46,"body":"teaching the course in this way,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2722.46,"endTime":2726.78,"body":"and it was actually been really"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2722.46,"endTime":2726.78,"body":"helpful to just, you know, do a"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2726.78,"endTime":2732.06,"body":"bit of what you're saying, zoom"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2726.78,"endTime":2732.06,"body":"out, re, you know, get back in"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2732.06,"endTime":2735.54,"body":"touch with, like, the purpose of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2732.06,"endTime":2735.54,"body":"the work, the purpose of of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2735.54,"endTime":2738.66,"body":"striving to have these"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2735.54,"endTime":2738.66,"body":"accomplishments and things and"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2738.66,"endTime":2744.68,"body":"sort of, you know, prioritize"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2738.66,"endTime":2744.68,"body":"goals and values and how those"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2744.68,"endTime":2747.2,"body":"two things relate to one another"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2744.68,"endTime":2747.2,"body":"for the next few years. And I"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2747.2,"endTime":2751.94,"body":"think the reason I sort of share"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2747.2,"endTime":2751.94,"body":"that experience is because I"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2751.94,"endTime":2755.72,"body":"think a lot of the time, a lot"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2751.94,"endTime":2755.72,"body":"of us just don't have the space,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2755.78,"endTime":2760.36,"body":"the time or energy to do that,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2755.78,"endTime":2760.36,"body":"like I didn't for the last six"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2760.36,"endTime":2762.88,"body":"years this has been that, like I"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2760.36,"endTime":2762.88,"body":"said, the first year, where I've"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2762.88,"endTime":2766.6,"body":"really felt able to do that. So"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2762.88,"endTime":2766.6,"body":"sometimes, you know, people"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2766.6,"endTime":2770.26,"body":"might not be able to connect"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2766.6,"endTime":2770.26,"body":"those dots or take their broader"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2770.26,"endTime":2773.38,"body":"perspective and zoom out a bit"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2770.26,"endTime":2773.38,"body":"until they just, like, take a"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2773.38,"endTime":2776.38,"body":"bit of a break, you know, and it"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2773.38,"endTime":2776.38,"body":"might need to be, like, in my"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2776.38,"endTime":2780.48,"body":"case, it needed to be quite a"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2776.38,"endTime":2780.48,"body":"long break, I think, which is"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2780.48,"endTime":2783.54,"body":"not always ideal, because not"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2780.48,"endTime":2783.54,"body":"everyone can take a sabbatical"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2783.54,"endTime":2787.92,"body":"or take leave from whatever it"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2783.54,"endTime":2787.92,"body":"is that they're doing, but it"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2787.92,"endTime":2792.42,"body":"can be helpful for just that"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2787.92,"endTime":2792.42,"body":"reset on perspective, values,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2792.42,"endTime":2794.22,"body":"goals and outcomes."},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2795.42,"endTime":2797.76,"body":"Yeah. I mean, I'm"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2795.42,"endTime":2797.76,"body":"so glad that you're having that"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2797.76,"endTime":2801.68,"body":"experience and that you're able"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2797.76,"endTime":2801.68,"body":"to connect with the purpose"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2801.68,"endTime":2804.62,"body":"behind why you're doing these"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2801.68,"endTime":2804.62,"body":"things, and also, for some"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2804.62,"endTime":2809.72,"body":"people, it's it's too scary to"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2804.62,"endTime":2809.72,"body":"take a break from. I'll give a"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2809.72,"endTime":2812.42,"body":"personal example. So you know,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2809.72,"endTime":2812.42,"body":"I've been a pro mound biker for"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2812.42,"endTime":2817.52,"body":"a very long time, since 2006 and"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2812.42,"endTime":2817.52,"body":"I'm questioning why I'm racing"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2817.52,"endTime":2819.92,"body":"still. And I've been questioning"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2817.52,"endTime":2819.92,"body":"for years making sure that I'm"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2819.92,"endTime":2821.96,"body":"not doing it because it's"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2819.92,"endTime":2821.96,"body":"something I've always done, or"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2821.96,"endTime":2824.26,"body":"I'm too afraid to not call"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2821.96,"endTime":2824.26,"body":"afraid to not call myself a pro"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2824.26,"endTime":2828.1,"body":"mountain biker. And I'm focusing"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2824.26,"endTime":2828.1,"body":"now on trail running, which is,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2828.22,"endTime":2830.98,"body":"you know, it's still like"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2828.22,"endTime":2830.98,"body":"performance and, you know,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2830.98,"endTime":2834.4,"body":"running and stuff like that. But"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2830.98,"endTime":2834.4,"body":"I had to really work for,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2834.4,"endTime":2838.06,"body":"actually, a couple of years of"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2834.4,"endTime":2838.06,"body":"letting go, of being brave"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2838.06,"endTime":2841.56,"body":"enough to say it's okay for me"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2838.06,"endTime":2841.56,"body":"to let go of this part of my"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2841.56,"endTime":2846.6,"body":"identity and just take a break"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2841.56,"endTime":2846.6,"body":"from it. And so there's lots of"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2846.6,"endTime":2849.36,"body":"people listening, probably that"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2846.6,"endTime":2849.36,"body":"are thinking like, I don't I"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2849.36,"endTime":2852.42,"body":"don't know how to step away and"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2849.36,"endTime":2852.42,"body":"take a break to give myself"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2852.42,"endTime":2855.78,"body":"breathing room, because I don't"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2852.42,"endTime":2855.78,"body":"know who I am if I do that and"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2855.78,"endTime":2858.9,"body":"I'm too afraid to face myself."},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2855.78,"endTime":2858.9,"body":"So like, how can people face"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2858.9,"endTime":2859.5,"body":"themselves?"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2860.34,"endTime":2863.06,"body":"Well, I think in"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2860.34,"endTime":2863.06,"body":"your story, I heard something"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2863.3,"endTime":2867.68,"body":"that I think is a really key"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2863.3,"endTime":2867.68,"body":"point, which is having something"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2867.68,"endTime":2873.2,"body":"else to kind of transition you"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2867.68,"endTime":2873.2,"body":"out of, you know, into you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2873.2,"endTime":2876.68,"body":"whatever the next destination,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2873.2,"endTime":2876.68,"body":"or what your future self might"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2876.68,"endTime":2880.66,"body":"look like. I think the I think"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2876.68,"endTime":2880.66,"body":"the great insights come out of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2880.66,"endTime":2884.8,"body":"that story as having something"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2880.66,"endTime":2884.8,"body":"to go to, you know. So if you're"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2884.8,"endTime":2891.28,"body":"going to let go of an identity,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2884.8,"endTime":2891.28,"body":"have another identity, or set of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2891.28,"endTime":2894.52,"body":"identities, that you can kind of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2891.28,"endTime":2894.52,"body":"go to, even if they're still in"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2894.52,"endTime":2899.26,"body":"the early stages, in their"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2894.52,"endTime":2899.26,"body":"infancy, something else that"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2899.26,"endTime":2903.96,"body":"gives your life purpose,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2899.26,"endTime":2903.96,"body":"structure, meaning, I think is"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2903.96,"endTime":2907.38,"body":"really important. I mean, you"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2903.96,"endTime":2907.38,"body":"see this all the time too, with"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2907.44,"endTime":2911.58,"body":"with pro athletes when they're"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2907.44,"endTime":2911.58,"body":"forced to retire, you know, so"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2911.58,"endTime":2916.26,"body":"if they have some sort of injury"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2911.58,"endTime":2916.26,"body":"or something happens, and"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2916.26,"endTime":2922.88,"body":"usually it is injury that forces"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2916.26,"endTime":2922.88,"body":"them to give up sport, and they"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2922.94,"endTime":2926.66,"body":"haven't had a chance to do any"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2922.94,"endTime":2926.66,"body":"kind of planning or setting up"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2926.66,"endTime":2929.54,"body":"what the next chapter looks"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2926.66,"endTime":2929.54,"body":"like. That's where you start to"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2929.54,"endTime":2932.78,"body":"get all of those sorts of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2929.54,"endTime":2932.78,"body":"problems around mental health"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2932.78,"endTime":2937.1,"body":"and identity crises and things"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2932.78,"endTime":2937.1,"body":"like that. So I think the more"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2937.1,"endTime":2942.52,"body":"that people can sort of have"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2937.1,"endTime":2942.52,"body":"that foresight and think about,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2942.52,"endTime":2946.36,"body":"okay, what's something I can"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2942.52,"endTime":2946.36,"body":"kind of put there to lead me"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2946.36,"endTime":2950.02,"body":"into the next chapter of my life"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2946.36,"endTime":2950.02,"body":"and my sort of myself more"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2950.02,"endTime":2953.56,"body":"broadly, I think is really"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":2950.02,"endTime":2953.56,"body":"helpful. Yeah, it"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2954.46,"endTime":2956.38,"body":"makes me think of"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2954.46,"endTime":2956.38,"body":"like just what we were talking"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2956.38,"endTime":2959.86,"body":"about, like self complexity,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2956.38,"endTime":2959.86,"body":"having a diversified identity,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2959.86,"endTime":2962.34,"body":"so you could do lots of"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2959.86,"endTime":2962.34,"body":"different things. And even if"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2962.34,"endTime":2965.22,"body":"you are really focused on one"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2962.34,"endTime":2965.22,"body":"thing, like, there's still other"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2965.22,"endTime":2970.56,"body":"parts of you as a human that you"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2965.22,"endTime":2970.56,"body":"can express those interests. And"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2970.98,"endTime":2974.04,"body":"part two to that is, if you are"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2970.98,"endTime":2974.04,"body":"shifting to something else,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2974.04,"endTime":2976.32,"body":"like, you know, personally, it's"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2974.04,"endTime":2976.32,"body":"like, okay, trail running. And"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2976.32,"endTime":2979.44,"body":"then also a career in"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2976.32,"endTime":2979.44,"body":"psychology, which I'm really"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2979.44,"endTime":2982.76,"body":"enjoying, that it's very fun and"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2979.44,"endTime":2982.76,"body":"very interesting when you're"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2982.76,"endTime":2986.48,"body":"kind of transitioning the"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2982.76,"endTime":2986.48,"body":"pressure, in some ways, is way"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2986.48,"endTime":2989.78,"body":"less like if I show up, for"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2986.48,"endTime":2989.78,"body":"example, to a running race, like"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2989.78,"endTime":2993.92,"body":"nobody knows who I am there,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2989.78,"endTime":2993.92,"body":"there's like, nobody cares how I"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2993.92,"endTime":2998.66,"body":"do like, all that stuff makes it"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2993.92,"endTime":2998.66,"body":"so much easier than if I go to"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2998.66,"endTime":3001.62,"body":"another bike race and it's like."},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":2998.66,"endTime":3001.62,"body":"Even if I just get on my bike,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3001.62,"endTime":3004.8,"body":"and there's all the thought"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3001.62,"endTime":3004.8,"body":"processes that I have to, you"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3004.8,"endTime":3007.44,"body":"know, go through of like, Well,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3004.8,"endTime":3007.44,"body":"how am I feeling today? What"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3007.44,"endTime":3010.08,"body":"does this mean, you know, and"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3007.44,"endTime":3010.08,"body":"all the mental skills I have to"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3010.08,"endTime":3013.5,"body":"employ to not let those become a"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3010.08,"endTime":3013.5,"body":"story. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3013.5,"endTime":3016.86,"body":"absolutely right."},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3013.5,"endTime":3016.86,"body":"And I think one of the things"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3017.22,"endTime":3020.54,"body":"that you kind of hinting at"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3017.22,"endTime":3020.54,"body":"there is, I think it's important"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3020.54,"endTime":3029.36,"body":"to to carve out at least one"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3020.54,"endTime":3029.36,"body":"thing in your life that's non"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3029.36,"endTime":3035.9,"body":"evaluative. So something in your"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3029.36,"endTime":3035.9,"body":"life where it is really hard to"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3035.9,"endTime":3038.96,"body":"ideally not something like your"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3035.9,"endTime":3038.96,"body":"work that you have to do a lot"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3038.96,"endTime":3041.5,"body":"of. But you know, whether it's a"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3038.96,"endTime":3041.5,"body":"hobby or a sport, something"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3041.5,"endTime":3047.26,"body":"where it's hard to figure out"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3041.5,"endTime":3047.26,"body":"how well you're doing, or it's"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3047.26,"endTime":3052.72,"body":"hard to see how well you're"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3047.26,"endTime":3052.72,"body":"doing relative to others. Like,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3052.72,"endTime":3055.84,"body":"I think for me, the example of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3052.72,"endTime":3055.84,"body":"that I have in my life is kind"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3055.84,"endTime":3058.72,"body":"of like gardening, like doing"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3055.84,"endTime":3058.72,"body":"things in our garden, around the"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3058.72,"endTime":3061.68,"body":"house, and I know that there's,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3058.72,"endTime":3061.68,"body":"like, you know, there's,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3061.86,"endTime":3065.94,"body":"there's, there's a gardening"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3061.86,"endTime":3065.94,"body":"community on Instagram and tick"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3065.94,"endTime":3069.72,"body":"tock and and YouTube. And if I"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3065.94,"endTime":3069.72,"body":"wanted to, I could see, like,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3069.96,"endTime":3073.68,"body":"how crappy a gardener I am"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3069.96,"endTime":3073.68,"body":"relative to those people. But"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3073.68,"endTime":3076.32,"body":"the point is, you know, you have"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3073.68,"endTime":3076.32,"body":"to go out of your way to kind of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3076.44,"endTime":3078.9,"body":"to make that connection. So for"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3076.44,"endTime":3078.9,"body":"me, it's just something that I"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3078.9,"endTime":3081.32,"body":"love doing. The activity is a"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3078.9,"endTime":3081.32,"body":"lot of fun. It's nice to be"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3081.32,"endTime":3086.6,"body":"outside. You know? It's nice to"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3081.32,"endTime":3086.6,"body":"see things grow, in some cases,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3086.9,"endTime":3090.68,"body":"bear fruit or veggies or"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3086.9,"endTime":3090.68,"body":"whatever it is. So I know I'm"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3090.68,"endTime":3093.86,"body":"not necessarily the greatest"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3090.68,"endTime":3093.86,"body":"gardener, but it's for me. It's"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3093.86,"endTime":3097.28,"body":"a really, like, a non evaluative"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3093.86,"endTime":3097.28,"body":"activity, like, I don't really"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3097.28,"endTime":3101.2,"body":"care about how good I am at it."},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3097.28,"endTime":3101.2,"body":"It's more just something I do,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3101.2,"endTime":3104.74,"body":"you know, for the for the sake"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3101.2,"endTime":3104.74,"body":"of doing, because doing it"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3104.74,"endTime":3108.4,"body":"brings me a sort of a sense of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3104.74,"endTime":3108.4,"body":"joy and satisfaction. So I think"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3108.64,"endTime":3111.4,"body":"as a, maybe as a reasonably"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3108.64,"endTime":3111.4,"body":"simple thing people can do as"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3111.4,"endTime":3115.24,"body":"well, if they really performance"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3111.4,"endTime":3115.24,"body":"inclined and inclined to care a"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3115.24,"endTime":3119.62,"body":"lot about that, deliberately"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3115.24,"endTime":3119.62,"body":"trying to carve out something,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3119.68,"endTime":3123.78,"body":"some kind of hobby or or"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3119.68,"endTime":3123.78,"body":"activity in life that that's"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3123.78,"endTime":3126.42,"body":"less evaluative in nature."},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3127.56,"endTime":3130.98,"body":"I'm just smiling"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3127.56,"endTime":3130.98,"body":"because in my like, I've talked"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3130.98,"endTime":3133.62,"body":"about my research a little bit"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3130.98,"endTime":3133.62,"body":"on this podcast, but I developed"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3133.62,"endTime":3135.9,"body":"a framework for meaningful"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3133.62,"endTime":3135.9,"body":"accomplishment through a"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3135.9,"endTime":3140.46,"body":"qualitative study that I did,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3135.9,"endTime":3140.46,"body":"and one of the key points for"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3140.94,"endTime":3143.72,"body":"the type of meaningful"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3140.94,"endTime":3143.72,"body":"accomplishment that gave you the"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3143.72,"endTime":3147.02,"body":"greatest type of self or"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3143.72,"endTime":3147.02,"body":"greatest type of satisfaction,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3147.62,"endTime":3150.56,"body":"was because you could not"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3147.62,"endTime":3150.56,"body":"measure it. It was or it was"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3150.56,"endTime":3153.44,"body":"very difficult to measure. And"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3150.56,"endTime":3153.44,"body":"the fact that it was difficult,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3153.44,"endTime":3155.6,"body":"especially for perfectionists,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3153.44,"endTime":3155.6,"body":"who are always trying to"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3155.6,"endTime":3158.06,"body":"measure, and say, Oh, this is"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3155.6,"endTime":3158.06,"body":"good enough or not good enough."},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3158.36,"endTime":3160.54,"body":"When you can't measure"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3158.36,"endTime":3160.54,"body":"something, or if you can't"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3160.54,"endTime":3163.9,"body":"evaluate it, then it becomes"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3160.54,"endTime":3163.9,"body":"about the thing. It doesn't"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3163.9,"endTime":3165.16,"body":"become about the measurement."},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3166.24,"endTime":3169.24,"body":"Yeah, I think"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3166.24,"endTime":3169.24,"body":"that's, I mean, I think it's"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3170.08,"endTime":3175.36,"body":"definitely true when it's sort"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3170.08,"endTime":3175.36,"body":"of, it's a lower stakes activity"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3175.36,"endTime":3177.76,"body":"in the context of your life, you"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3175.36,"endTime":3177.76,"body":"know. So for me, it's something"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3177.76,"endTime":3180.54,"body":"like gardening, and for other"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3177.76,"endTime":3180.54,"body":"people, it might be a sort of a"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3180.54,"endTime":3184.44,"body":"sport they do just as a bit of a"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3180.54,"endTime":3184.44,"body":"hobby, or different forms of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3184.44,"endTime":3189.72,"body":"exercise and fitness can be like"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3184.44,"endTime":3189.72,"body":"that for people. And I think,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3189.72,"endTime":3193.02,"body":"though, going back to what I"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3189.72,"endTime":3193.02,"body":"said a little bit earlier, if"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3193.02,"endTime":3197.28,"body":"you have that in something that"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3193.02,"endTime":3197.28,"body":"is kind of a takes up a lot of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3197.28,"endTime":3200.54,"body":"time and is really central to"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3197.28,"endTime":3200.54,"body":"your life, you can get that kind"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3200.54,"endTime":3205.52,"body":"of morphing into judging by"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3200.54,"endTime":3205.52,"body":"effort, you know? So because the"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3205.52,"endTime":3210.14,"body":"measures not there of outcomes"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3205.52,"endTime":3210.14,"body":"or achievement, then you get"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3210.14,"endTime":3213.68,"body":"that slipping into judging based"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3210.14,"endTime":3213.68,"body":"on how much, how much effort Am"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3213.68,"endTime":3216.86,"body":"I putting into it. So I guess"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3213.68,"endTime":3216.86,"body":"the lesson there is when people"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3216.86,"endTime":3220.04,"body":"are trying to find these sort of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3216.86,"endTime":3220.04,"body":"non evaluative hobbies or"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3220.04,"endTime":3223.78,"body":"activities in their lives,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3220.04,"endTime":3223.78,"body":"avoid, trying to avoid that trap"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3224.14,"endTime":3229.12,"body":"of slipping into thinking, Oh,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3224.14,"endTime":3229.12,"body":"well, you know, I need to be, if"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3229.12,"endTime":3231.58,"body":"I want to be a successful"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3229.12,"endTime":3231.58,"body":"gardener, then maybe I should be"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3231.58,"endTime":3236.62,"body":"spending, you know, every day"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3231.58,"endTime":3236.62,"body":"after, you know, like in the"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3236.62,"endTime":3240.52,"body":"middle of the night, like it's,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3236.62,"endTime":3240.52,"body":"I mean, it's a bit of a crazy"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3240.52,"endTime":3243.24,"body":"example, but that kind of just"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3240.52,"endTime":3243.24,"body":"illustrates the point. You know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3243.24,"endTime":3247.26,"body":"that sometimes the lack of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3243.24,"endTime":3247.26,"body":"measurement, sometimes people"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3247.26,"endTime":3251.7,"body":"will invent another measurement"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3247.26,"endTime":3251.7,"body":"that can give them grief. So,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3252.24,"endTime":3255.78,"body":"yeah, can sometimes, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3252.24,"endTime":3255.78,"body":"go it can go both ways, I think,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3255.78,"endTime":3257.64,"body":"depending on how people kind of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3255.78,"endTime":3257.64,"body":"approach it."},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3259.14,"endTime":3261.86,"body":"Yeah. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3259.14,"endTime":3261.86,"body":"we've covered how complex a"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3261.86,"endTime":3265.7,"body":"performance based identity is"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3261.86,"endTime":3265.7,"body":"and how difficult it is to"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3265.76,"endTime":3268.64,"body":"untangle from that. If it's"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3265.76,"endTime":3268.64,"body":"something that that is causing"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3268.64,"endTime":3272.24,"body":"issues, and for some people, it"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3268.64,"endTime":3272.24,"body":"isn't causing issues, is there"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3272.24,"endTime":3275.78,"body":"anything else that you want to"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3272.24,"endTime":3275.78,"body":"to add before we have to sign"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3275.78,"endTime":3276.26,"body":"off here?"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3277.76,"endTime":3280.6,"body":"I don't think so."},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3277.76,"endTime":3280.6,"body":"Other than just to like, the"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3280.6,"endTime":3283.84,"body":"fact that you use the word"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3280.6,"endTime":3283.84,"body":"complexity. 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And so I'm"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3307.86,"endTime":3313.02,"body":"generally, yeah, very all of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3313.02,"endTime":3315.84,"body":"that has had the effect of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3313.02,"endTime":3315.84,"body":"making me quite skeptical of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3315.84,"endTime":3319.2,"body":"people who offer really"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3315.84,"endTime":3319.2,"body":"simplistic prescriptions for how"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3319.2,"endTime":3325.88,"body":"to, you know, it's like, it's,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3319.2,"endTime":3325.88,"body":"it's hard to take that stuff"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3325.88,"endTime":3329.72,"body":"seriously when you've seen from"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3325.88,"endTime":3329.72,"body":"all of these different studies"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3329.72,"endTime":3333.44,"body":"just how complex these topics"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3329.72,"endTime":3333.44,"body":"are. And I think that, in"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3333.44,"endTime":3335.9,"body":"itself, is a good insight for"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3333.44,"endTime":3335.9,"body":"people who might be struggling"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3335.9,"endTime":3339.62,"body":"with these things, to realize"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3335.9,"endTime":3339.62,"body":"like they are, they are complex"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3339.62,"endTime":3345.34,"body":"things. There's, a lot of moving"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3339.62,"endTime":3345.34,"body":"parts and but that doesn't mean"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3345.34,"endTime":3349.3,"body":"that you can't do anything about"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3345.34,"endTime":3349.3,"body":"it. It just probably requires,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3349.66,"endTime":3353.86,"body":"you know, a range of different"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3349.66,"endTime":3353.86,"body":"kind of interventions and"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3353.86,"endTime":3358.18,"body":"approaches. And it also probably"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3353.86,"endTime":3358.18,"body":"means that you've got to go"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3358.3,"endTime":3361.56,"body":"you've got to go easy on"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3358.3,"endTime":3361.56,"body":"yourself, because they are quite"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3362.04,"endTime":3368.34,"body":"complex topics and sort of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3362.04,"endTime":3368.34,"body":"psychological things. Having the"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3368.34,"endTime":3371.82,"body":"kind of relationship you want"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3368.34,"endTime":3371.82,"body":"with performance or achievement"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3372.6,"endTime":3375.78,"body":"isn't going to happen overnight."},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3372.6,"endTime":3375.78,"body":"You know, it's going to take a"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3375.78,"endTime":3379.02,"body":"long time to craft it. Even"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3375.78,"endTime":3379.02,"body":"myself, as someone who studies"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3379.02,"endTime":3383.78,"body":"these things, I'm constantly"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3379.02,"endTime":3383.78,"body":"still reflecting on and trying"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3383.78,"endTime":3387.74,"body":"to sort of tinker with my own"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3383.78,"endTime":3387.74,"body":"mental relationship, with my"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3388.04,"endTime":3393.2,"body":"sort of work and my performance."},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3388.04,"endTime":3393.2,"body":"So, yeah, I think it's, it's"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3393.2,"endTime":3396.38,"body":"good for people to realize these"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3393.2,"endTime":3396.38,"body":"things are complicated, but it"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3396.38,"endTime":3401.14,"body":"doesn't mean that they can't do"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3396.38,"endTime":3401.14,"body":"things, I think, to to nudge"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3401.14,"endTime":3404.2,"body":"themselves more to having the"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3401.14,"endTime":3404.2,"body":"kind of mental relationship"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3404.2,"endTime":3405.58,"body":"performance that they want to"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3404.2,"endTime":3405.58,"body":"have."},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3406.78,"endTime":3409.12,"body":"Yeah, and I think"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3406.78,"endTime":3409.12,"body":"that you make a good point that"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3409.12,"endTime":3411.94,"body":"it's not about making it go"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3409.12,"endTime":3411.94,"body":"away, and you probably won't"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3411.94,"endTime":3415.54,"body":"ever make it go away. It's how"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3411.94,"endTime":3415.54,"body":"you relate to it and how you"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3415.54,"endTime":3419.26,"body":"manage it. And that part is very"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3415.54,"endTime":3419.26,"body":"complicated."},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3420.28,"endTime":3422.22,"body":"Yeah, it's"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3420.28,"endTime":3422.22,"body":"complicated, but, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3422.22,"endTime":3424.2,"body":"there's things you can do. I"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3422.22,"endTime":3424.2,"body":"mean, we've talked about some"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3424.2,"endTime":3429.66,"body":"things today. There's things"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3424.2,"endTime":3429.66,"body":"people can do. And I think it"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3429.66,"endTime":3433.2,"body":"is, yeah, like you say, a bit of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3429.66,"endTime":3433.2,"body":"a bit of self acceptance, like,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3433.62,"endTime":3436.14,"body":"if you're a perfectionist,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3433.62,"endTime":3436.14,"body":"you're probably never gonna"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3436.14,"endTime":3441.68,"body":"really stop being a"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3436.14,"endTime":3441.68,"body":"perfectionist. It's, it's"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3441.68,"endTime":3445.34,"body":"something that's that's a"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3441.68,"endTime":3445.34,"body":"reasonably stable trait, but we"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3445.34,"endTime":3449.18,"body":"can become a lot more aware of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3445.34,"endTime":3449.18,"body":"those traits and how to, like"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3449.18,"endTime":3451.94,"body":"said, sort of manage their"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3449.18,"endTime":3451.94,"body":"impact on our lives and our"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3452.42,"endTime":3454.76,"body":"happiness, I guess at the end of"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3452.42,"endTime":3454.76,"body":"the day,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3455.78,"endTime":3458.18,"body":"well, thank you so"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3455.78,"endTime":3458.18,"body":"much for being so generous with"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3458.18,"endTime":3461.56,"body":"your time and for coming on the"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3458.18,"endTime":3461.56,"body":"podcast. And where can people"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3461.56,"endTime":3463.06,"body":"find your papers and your work?"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3464.26,"endTime":3468.58,"body":"So if they're"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3464.26,"endTime":3468.58,"body":"interested in research stuff and"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3468.58,"endTime":3471.88,"body":"just hearing more about what I"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3468.58,"endTime":3471.88,"body":"do, they can go to Ben Walker,"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3471.94,"endTime":3476.38,"body":"hyphen, phd.com, and so there's"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3471.94,"endTime":3476.38,"body":"a little blurb about the"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3476.38,"endTime":3479.98,"body":"different things I've been doing"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3476.38,"endTime":3479.98,"body":"on there. And I think on there"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3479.98,"endTime":3483.42,"body":"too, there's a LinkedIn too. If"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3479.98,"endTime":3483.42,"body":"you're interested in sort of the"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3483.42,"endTime":3486.72,"body":"hardcore research stuff, there's"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3483.42,"endTime":3486.72,"body":"a link to my Google Scholar"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3486.72,"endTime":3491.46,"body":"page. And if they just want to"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3486.72,"endTime":3491.46,"body":"connect and talk more, my email"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3491.46,"endTime":3494.76,"body":"address and my LinkedIn link is"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3491.46,"endTime":3494.76,"body":"on there as well."},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3495.9,"endTime":3497.76,"body":"Thanks so much for"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3495.9,"endTime":3497.76,"body":"coming on the show. This was"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3497.76,"endTime":3498.48,"body":"such a treat."},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3499.38,"endTime":3501.26,"body":"No problem. Thanks"},{"speaker":"Ben Walker","startTime":3499.38,"endTime":3501.26,"body":"so much for having me."},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3502.64,"endTime":3505.94,"body":"Thank you so much"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3502.64,"endTime":3505.94,"body":"for listening to this episode of"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3505.94,"endTime":3509.18,"body":"grow the good I'm so excited"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3505.94,"endTime":3509.18,"body":"that you are here, that you have"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3509.18,"endTime":3511.46,"body":"been with us through this"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3509.18,"endTime":3511.46,"body":"transition from the Sonya Looney"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3511.46,"endTime":3515.9,"body":"show to grow the good podcast,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3511.46,"endTime":3515.9,"body":"and we have some amazing guests"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3515.9,"endTime":3518.84,"body":"lined up. If you are trying to"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3515.9,"endTime":3518.84,"body":"remember what our format was, we"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3518.84,"endTime":3522.76,"body":"do three episodes a month. We do"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3518.84,"endTime":3522.76,"body":"one interview with a guest. We"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3522.94,"endTime":3527.44,"body":"do one moving meditation from me"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3522.94,"endTime":3527.44,"body":"and one solo episode from me. On"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3527.44,"endTime":3530.92,"body":"the insides of performance, well"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3527.44,"endTime":3530.92,"body":"being and how to grow the good."},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3531.22,"endTime":3533.68,"body":"If you like the show, please"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3531.22,"endTime":3533.68,"body":"don't forget to follow us, or,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3533.68,"endTime":3536.8,"body":"even better, leave us a five"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3533.68,"endTime":3536.8,"body":"star review as that helps the"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3536.8,"endTime":3540.24,"body":"show find others. We really are"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3536.8,"endTime":3540.24,"body":"trying to build a tailwind and"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3540.24,"endTime":3543.18,"body":"some momentum with this show,"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3540.24,"endTime":3543.18,"body":"because these guests have such"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3543.18,"endTime":3546.54,"body":"important insights that we want"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3543.18,"endTime":3546.54,"body":"to share with the world to help"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3546.54,"endTime":3550.02,"body":"it be better, to help people"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3546.54,"endTime":3550.02,"body":"strive from a healthy place. As"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3550.02,"endTime":3552.9,"body":"always, I'm with you on this"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3550.02,"endTime":3552.9,"body":"journey of growth adventure and"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3552.9,"endTime":3555.66,"body":"our mission to be better, and"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3552.9,"endTime":3555.66,"body":"I'll see you right back here"},{"speaker":"Sonya Looney","startTime":3555.72,"endTime":3556.38,"body":"next week. You"}]}