Designed for Learning

Why Learning Student Names Matters

• Notre Dame Learning • Season 1 • Episode 1

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In this inaugural episode of Designed for Learning, host Jim Lang sits down with cognitive psychologist and author Michelle D. Miller to explore the challenges and rewards of something that sounds so basic it’s easy to overlook how daunting it can be:

Learning and remembering student names.

As you prepare to meet students when they return to campus for the new semester, mastering their names isn't just a memory exercise—it’s a step toward creating a welcoming, inclusive classroom environment.

Key Topics Discussed:

  • The science behind why names are uniquely difficult to remember
  • The importance of knowing students’ names for fostering connection and inclusivity
  • Michelle’s four-step strategy to improve name recall: Attend, Say, Associate, Retrieve
  • The role of attention and retrieval in reinforcing memory
  • Practical tips for large and small classes, including the use of name tents and group activities
  • How learning names enhances engagement and classroom participation

Guest Bio: Michelle D. Miller is a professor of psychological sciences and President’s Distinguished Teaching Fellow at Northern Arizona University. Originally trained in cognitive psychology, psycholinguistics, and neuroscience, she now focuses mainly on using the findings of these fields to help faculty choose and use educational technology and design engaging, effective college courses. Her latest book, A Teacher’s Guide to Learning Student Names: Why You Should, Why It’s Hard, How You Can, offers practical, research-backed strategies for educators looking to build a sense of connection with their students.

Resources Mentioned

Designed for Learning is hosted by Jim Lang, a professor of the practice in Notre Dame Learning’s Kaneb Center for Teaching Excellence and the author of several influential books on teaching. The podcast is produced by Notre Dame Learning’s Office of Digital Learning. For more, visit learning.nd.edu. You can also follow Notre Dame Learning on LinkedIn.

(upbeat music)[PROF. JIM LANG] Welcome to Design for Learning, a podcast from Notre Dame Learning. I'm your host, Jim Lang.(upbeat music continues) Today, I'm looking forward to a conversation with Michelle Miller, who has authored a new book on learning and remembering student names. Students are returning to your campus this month, if they haven't returned already. And so the struggle begins anew in terms of this perennial challenge. Have you ever said that you're the kind of person who is terrible at remembering names And you wanna get to understand why learning names is so hard, or you just wanna get better at learning student names, this episode is for you. Dr. Michelle Miller is a cognitive psychologist, researcher, and speaker focused on supporting and inspiring teachers, instructional designers, and leaders who care about learning. She advocates for building learning experiences based on research on how people learn, using educational technologies in ways that align with those principles. Of learning. She's the author of several books, most recently,'Teachers Guide to Learning in Student Names,' 'Why You Should, Why It's Hard, How You Can.' It was just published by just a couple of months ago by the University of Oklahoma Press. She's also authored 'Minds Online,' 'Teaching Effectively with Technology,' and also'Remembering and Forgetting in the Age of Technology.' Michelle completed her Ph.D. in Cognitive Psychology and Behavioral Neuroscience at the University of California Los Angeles and currently serves as a professor of psychological sciences at the President's Distinguished Teaching Fellow at Northern Arizona University. Welcome, Michelle![DR. MICHELLE D. MILLER] Hey, it's great to be here![PROF. JIM LANG] So I'm looking forward to our conversation today, and we're going to talk about student names and all the challenges of learning student names. One thing I've learned from two and a half decades of teaching is that the struggle to learn students' names is a very widely shared one. I hear people say this all the time, you know,'I'm just not very good learning student names,' as if there's some unique deficiency they have. It turns out learning and remembering student names is difficult for most people. So why is that?[DR. MICHELLE D. MILLER] Well, I mean, I'll affirm too, I hear that a lot as a cognitive psychologist, and you know, cognitive psychology is still a little bit of an obscure discipline, but when people hear that I study memory and learning things like that, that's something that almost inevitably comes up,(Dr. Michelle chuckles) Just exactly how you're describing it like, 'Oh I have this secret problem. What is going on?'(Dr. Michelle chuckles) And so it really is a very common issue and within cognitive psychology and there's even a sub subfield of psycholinguistics which is kind of, that's actually where I started out, this interdisciplinary kind of territory between linguistics and psychology, social psychology, and especially cognitive psychology. So within this area, we actually have made a tremendous amount of progress in understanding exactly why that common experience happened. So this is not always the case in my discipline, but back in the 80s and early 90s, so quite some time ago, and right when I was kind of coming into my own and considering going into this field, we kind of got a grip on this problem. And so within our discipline, it's a success story of like, yeah, we understand this, but it's a little dire in terms of what we learned as far as the inherent difficulty of the problem. So people who, for example, read the bestselling book,'Moonwalking with Einstein,' you've heard of this one before. It's something called the Baker-Baker Paradox.[PROF. JIM LANG] Yeah.[DR. MICHELLE D. MILLER] And this was like the big landmark discovery that allowed us to start, first of all, documenting that, Yeah, this isn't just a subjective impression. This actually is, I mean names are harder to remember than other information about a person. And I, you know, get into all the ins and outs of it in the book, but basically it was this very clever paradigm where they tried introducing people to, you know, these artificial profiles that showed them a picture and say, 'Oh, this is Mary Baker and she's a potter.' And you'd have to remember that. And of course you could swap it around and say,'This is Mary Potter and she's a baker.' And just when you take that same identical word, baker with a big B, baker with a lowercase b, that transforms its memorability. And so of course there's a few, you know, little squabbles around the edges about exactly why, but we all agree that essentially when you turn a word into a name that makes it kind of this arbitrary token in a way, so instead of being part of a very rich network of knowledge like saying, 'Oh somebody is a professional potter, what does that mean?' It becomes this piece of information sort of hanging out there all by itself and there's very few ways to retrace back to it if it's weekend or you first forget some aspect of it. So that is something that is absolutely very common.[PROF. JIM LANG] So let me get you up here and just clarify this. So if someone tells me they're a potter, I meet that person at a party, and then later I think oh that person was a potter because I know stuff about pottery. Like maybe I like I'm a potter, I've tried pottery myself or that my wife is a potter, or like I saw a movie about pottery, right? So because of that, I remember that person because that name is connected with, or that profession is connected with all these other things I know about that area as opposed to a name, say a completely random name, there's no network around it.[DR. MICHELLE D. MILLER] Exactly, no network around it. And again, while our understanding of what we'll call it semantic memory, like rich interconnected knowledge. Our understanding of that has evolved somewhat in the last couple of decades, but I think there's broad consensus that many of us in the field of memory, in memory research, do think of knowledge in that way, as a rich, sometimes very messy and unpredictable, but interconnected network. And that means that there's some redundancies in the system as well, right? So if you associated, you know, meeting this person who's Mary Baker at a party, if you kind of associate it with the documentary you saw or asking about what sorts of pieces that they make and even being able to visualize every time we have a sensory, you know, experience that's associated in there too, that also becomes part of it. If any little piece of that falls apart, you can sort of retrace your steps back so you can think, 'What did we see? Oh, that's right. She reminded me of that film that I saw.' And then voila, we remember what she does for a living. And there just aren't that many built-in kind of mechanisms or advantages that we can leverage when it comes to a name. Other than some very basic information or associations we might have about say being named Baker,(Dr. Michelle laughing) There's just not a lot to go on. And it sort of creates a single point of failure, if that makes sense.[PROF. JIM LANG] Yeah, so these are isolated pieces of information which are not connected to anything. As a result, and also we know a lot of people, we have like multiple isolated pieces of information, right? So that's why names are really a challenge for us, right? So given that, okay, every semester you have a new batch of names to remember. And of course, with a long teaching career, you're have thousands of names you'll encounter and have to remember. I mean, but we don't remember all of them. So given that, like, you know, why is this important to do? And also, like, should I expect to learn student names? Like if I say to you,'I'm a terrible person remembering names,' you're going to say to me, 'That's okay. It's hard.' Or should you say, 'No, you actually can get better at it. There's some strategies that you could do.' So what should my expectations be and why is it important?[DR. MICHELLE D. MILLER] Yeah, and this is a great question. I mean, you know, the setup that, yeah, this is an extremely common issue. It's much more the exception than the rule to say, 'Oh, I'm struggling with this.' We can give ourselves grace. For that and have some kind of common experience here But absolutely I think that having it be a part of our teaching is still quite important, right? So as some folks have talked about this is really foundational to having to having an inclusive classroom and one where students feel really welcome and even getting the finer points and making sure you get the pronunciation right every single time from the beginning. All those can make a very big difference. And you know, I relate in the book too, 'the flip side. What if we don't do this?' My very first semester as a teaching assistant back at UCLA, you know, picture enormous state school and so these breakout sessions were essentially like miniature classrooms with 30 or 35 students a piece. What did I do? I totally focused on 'I'm gonna make a really slick presentation and students are gonna watch and be I worked so hard' and what did my comments at the end of the semester say? 'She didn't try to learn our names.' I was like, 'oh my gosh! Well, all that preparation, all like, look at me, look at my expertise.'(both laughing) That really goes by the ways if the students don't feel welcome. So yeah, there's that kind of like, okay, if you do this, this is a wonderful advantage you can have from day one. And really start to distinguish yourself in your classroom as being really inclusive and dynamic. Or you can be like me in my first semester of teaching. So the choice is yours. So I think that that is something that we do need to expect of ourselves. And I think, I mean, we can get into some specific ideas, but it really does start, as with so many things, with making a plan. And that was a big turning point for me when I really kind of turned pro and got into my own full-time teaching position was, all right, whether you're gonna have a way of studying names in advance, whether it's going to be an icebreaker or some other methodology, what's gonna be your strategy that you're going to walk in there in the first week and get yourself off to a great start?[PROF. JIM LANG] So we have a shared interest and attention and engagement in the classroom, right? This is another issue I think you can think about in relationship to learning names, the student who's aware that I know their name is maybe more willing to engage in the classroom like a discussion or something like that if I call them by name. And they know that I recognize them as a person And I value their opinion as a human, not just as like one other voice saying something in the room to push the discussion forward, right? So like they want to feel valued in those kinds of engagement exercises as well. And I think, you know, there's also research on the fact that names are the power to draw our attention, right? And so I think all these things give us more reasons to really think about the value of doing this practice.[DR. MICHELLE D. MILLER] Right. It's an amazing connection to make. I mean, this is a brief book and I didn't quite get into that aspect of it, but absolutely you're touching on something that has been, oh my gosh, we've got 60, 70 years of research tradition within cognitive psychology, that do come down to names, whether it's auditory or even in vision, it really jumps out at you more so than almost any other kind of stimulus that you can have. And so, yeah, we've got lots and lots of clever ways to demonstrate that names are incredibly privileged. So, right, what could be more attention-grabbing in a good way.[PROF. JIM LANG] Yeah.[DR. MICHELLE D. MILLER] But also really personally affirming? And yeah, I mean, I hope that this book and this conversation we're having does inspire more people to, as a matter of course, know lots of student names early in the semester. It may not be the case right now. So again, you're kind of, it's also something that students notice. And they say,'Oh my gosh, I can't, she actually addressed me, even though this was a big class, or I know she has four different courses,' and so on.[PROF. JIM LANG] Yeah, it's a little bit sad, but sometimes, well, you know, in a smaller class, I taught for many years in smaller seminars and students will often say,'You're the only professor who knows my name.' It's kind of sad, right? So me to be able to say, make a commitment. If we could all make more of a commitment to it, we're never going to get there. Everyone be knowing everyone's names and large classes and all that kind of stuff. But making commitment to it, I think is really important. So let's talk about that.(Jim clears throat) So let's say, you know, I'm someone who feels challenged by this And I want to get a little bit better. What can I do to improve my ability to learn and remember student names?[DR. MICHELLE D. MILLER] Yeah, and I think the basic technique, I have a sort of a, you know, doesn't trip off the tongue, but it'll do, acronym that I came up with.'attend, Say, Associate, Retrieve.' And this in no way is this specific to a classroom setting. So this is one that one probably can and probably should to start to practice in sort of everyday life, there's nothing inherently different about it being student name. So attend, say, associate, retrieve, I think is, if not totally self-explanatory, a good trigger to what we should start to do as an absolute habit. And it does, as you mentioned, attention. We know from that shared interest that all meaningful learning pretty much starts with attention. And it is a learning task, whether I'm standing around at the new faculty mixer at the beginning of the semester or meeting that class, the first thing is, 'oh, here's a name.' And it may seem very simple. However, usually on that first day of class or in other social situations, our attention is going 20 other places, right?(Dr. Michelle laughing) We're seeing if people have finished filing in,'what am I going to do next on the PowerPoints? What's this flashing light on my laptop doing?' But if we can retrain our ourselves to say, 'Okay, a name just happened. I need to be attentive to that.' That's a big part of the battle. And then of course the say, also so deceptively simple, but there's also kind of some complicated reasons why, but you actually have to pronounce either out loud or in your head either way to practice kind of what we call the output phonology. So how a name sounds is one thing, how you actually say it is another. And so that helps solidifies it. And it also is really good little catch in case, 'oh my gosh! This guy's name just went out of my mind.' There's still sort of that open window to say,'I'm sorry, did I get that?'(Jim laughing)[PROF. JIM LANG] Yeah, absolutely.[DR. MICHELLE D. MILLER] None of that ever happens to anybody else. Associate is a little bit, I put parentheses around that one, it's sort of the optional stage. You know, we hear about the little name mnemonics of making association and those can be a little problematic and not always easy to come up with on the fly, but especially if you're really trying to learn quite a few in a short period of time, say, 'okay, they remind me of somebody else.' Say no with that same first name. If there's something about them. Proceed with caution, but maybe. And then, of course, retrieve. And you and I also have a shared interest in—[PROF. JIM LANG] Yeap.[DR. MICHELLE D. MILLER] The most powerful applied deliberate memory strategy known to humankind at this point, which is retrieval. So let yourself almost forget the name. Whether that takes a few seconds or a few minutes or a few weeks is up to you. But every time you then say the name, that is a formal retrieval practice.'so it was really nice to meet you, Micah. And I can't wait to continue the conversation at next class period,' that kind of thing. So the more you can drop those in, the better. And you're already, as you mentioned, the student is maybe going to notice, 'oh, wow, they're already using my name.' So following that practice, so with that sort of core, there's lots of other ways to play this out, of course studying it in advance. Lots of other things—[PROF. JIM LANG] Let me, sorry. Can I interrupt one more time? Yeah, let me interrupt one more time. I think there's something that's built into the way that we teach which helps give us opportunity for that retrieval practice. In other words, every time you leave the classroom, you're gonna come back maybe 24 hours or 48 hours later, you're gonna see that student again. That means that we can not give up on the first week. If we try to practice the names each time we see the student for the first time or the next time, right? We have an opportunity to have forgotten a little bit and retrieve it in the next class period. So this actually works in our favor to a certain extent, right? That over time, essentially we're spacing out retrieval because of the classes spaced out.(Jim chuckles)[DR. MICHELLE D. MILLER] Yeah, I mean, that's it. And I like that as a positive angle in the situation we find ourselves in, as opposed to say the classic cocktail party, 'am I gonna see this person again?' Or, 'Oh my gosh, here's that vice president I only see once a semester.'(Dr. Michelle laughing) Yeah, so make that work to our favor and to our advantage as well. And it's absolutely spaced and distributed practice. And I mean, I don't think that there's any hard and fast limits around how long is it acceptable to be struggling with names.[PROF. JIM LANG] Yeah.[DR. MICHELLE D. MILLER] But I would go with at least the first two or three weeks of class.[PROF. JIM LANG] I like it.[DR. MICHELLE D. MILLER] Yeah.[PROF. JIM LANG] That's good grace right there.(Jim laughing) And I'm sorry, you were about to start giving more strategies.[DR. MICHELLE D. MILLER] Oh sure. So other strategies, you know, icebreakers if you're doing them can also meet and greet activities can be a part of vehicle for this as well. I have a kind of an elaborate one that I described in the book But I mean think about it if you have say a small group discussion activity on the first day and maybe even tapping into some of your classic now suggestions about about how to use that first day of class really well. Have students working on a problem or learning about each other, something like that. Well, they're in groups and I can circulate and each little group becomes this little manageable pod to do retrieval practice and distribute that practice. Oh, I'm gonna to walk up to this group in the corner and your name, I'm gonna say them. How nice to meet you. And if I can make it to most or all of those small groups, great. And if students hear that maybe I'm modelling or maybe I wanna deliberately tell them this is the time for you to also know each other's names. I'm also not gonna expect them to memorize everybody in the room on the first day, but hey, imagine just the power of knowing, okay, person to my left and person to my right. I actually know their first names. How? Because I was kind of nudged in that direction by the instructor on the first day.[PROF. JIM LANG] Yeah. I'm thinking about the first day a little bit here because it's such a, you know, a lot of stuff is happening that first day. Again, if you're like a smaller class, you might have students introduce themselves. But I can make a point, for example, to say, I can repeat the name back. The say part is then maybe I've often in the past, maybe I've left that out. They introduce themselves and they move to the next person, right? But I, the instructor, could say, make a point to say, repeat the name back when I respond to them. And also being transparent about that. Say, 'I'm going to say, introduce yourself, you know. Every time I'm gonna say something, I'm gonna say your name back because that's a way for me to help remember names. And it's an important value for me to know your names. There's a little practice, might be seeming a little annoying today, but you know what, again, it gives me an opportunity to do that.' The other thing I'm thinking now, based on what you're saying is that like small groups, maybe we do introductory activity where they introduce themselves. Then there's small groups I can go around and have a second time to affirm that, you know, first introduction. So those first day, that first week, every time I'm talking to them, I'm trying to say their name and again, try to build up those associations. You know, it's kind of interesting that say piece is I'm sure you've been in these conversations too with people who I meet someone for the first time and they'll say my name like ten times in the first few minutes of the conversation. And I always thought, geez! What are you doing? But apparently there is some good, there's reasoning behind this, right?(both laughing)[DR. MICHELLE D. MILLER] Yeah, there is a reason. Now, covert rehearsal as we would technically call it in incognito psychology, that should be fine.[PROF. JIM LANG] Right.[DR. MICHELLE D. MILLER] But yeah, let's normalize it And I agree with you. I think I changed my perspective on that conversational approach after I really started thinking it through. Yeah, there's probably some social limits around it.[PROF. JIM LANG] Right.[DR. MICHELLE D. MILLER] But at least once or twice you should try. I assume that people have read some business book that's about, you know, helping the network or something like that. When I heard that kind of happening to me as the name was being learned. A couple other follow-ups here in terms of large classes. So again, and so I'm more familiar with this in smaller classes, but let's say someone says my class is 100 students, I'll never know all their names, or even 300. So what should my expectation be for myself? And what can I do in that situation?[DR. MICHELLE D. MILLER] Right, and I absolutely agree. And this is something really important as we talk to our fellow faculty. If it's something that works in your little seminar and you're presenting it to somebody who teaches, you know,'Intro to Chemistry,' it's 300, 400 people. I mean, quite rightfully, they'll check out if it doesn't apply. So here too, now there is no kind of arbitrary limit. Like the brain can only learn so many names at a time. As I share in the book, my personal limit is around if I've got 30 people in a room, I can probably since I have all these tricks down, I can get those folks. When you get over 50 or 60 or so, then you're talking about essentially sampling some of them. Now, some of my practices that I try to follow as a general heuristic in emergent classes is, you know, in those big classes, you probably do have the students who stop by at the beginning or the end of class. They've got questions and I tend to assume that that's also the student wants to make a connection. Now, if you're that student who's usually stopping by to continue the conversation or let me know what you did earlier today, then I will know your name. I think beyond that, keeping in mind that we're going to know a subset of names, not all the names, I do, you know, it's good common sense to say, well, at least distribute that equitably. Memorizing the first two rows is probably not just the way to go and, you know, monitor yourself and say, are there certain demographics or students that I already know or I gravitate towards. But as long as you have some, there's some research that shows, wonderful research that shows that students kind of overestimate in a positive way how many names we know if we know at least a few. And then it is a practical point, most folks who are veterans of that type of teaching situation, the table tent. So get yourself down to your local craft store get some heavyweight cardstock and has to write big visible letters their first name and that And and then actually use it in class.'that was a great point Jacob and after that we're gonna go to Rosa over here in the corner,' and normalizes the names gives you a little bit of practice and as you use them students will also get that idea of like 'oh actually, Yeah She's using the table tents, I'm gonna actually hang on to mine.' And I also like to offer stickers and markers and things. We're all nervous on the first day, but we can kind of do a craft project. So that can also help students personalize it as well. So those are some tricks of the trade for big classes.[PROF. JIM LANG] So actually, I co-taught a course this summer with Kristi Rudenga, the director of KNIP Center at Notre Dame, and she used the name tense in a very small seminar class. And you know, I had not done this for myself in the past and she would have the students, you know, she would have the name tents. She would actually hand them out and so the students would have to, she would actually go around and use them as a way to say hello to the students every day. In other words, so you know, here are you and especially in the first week she would say their name, give them the name tent and then they would put them up so they could see each other's names as well. So there was a lot of value going on there in ways I didn't realize at first. I thought well, you know, two weeks in there's there's like 12 students here. We know each other's names, but it was a good thing for me to see that this showed the value of someone's name, not only for Kristi and I, but also for them to see the value of each other's names. And so I think name tents can be used in multiple contexts for very good reasons. Especially by the first week or two, it was very valuable to walk around and hand them out. You could definitely feel those moments like, 'oh, I should know this student's name by telling me.'(Dr. Michelle laughing) And I would just say, 'remind me, can you remind me.' But eventually, you get them all, right? I mean, especially in a smaller scene.[DR. MICHELLE D. MILLER] Yeah, I mean, I'm all about efficiency. When there are things that we're doing pedagogically anyway, the classic classroom assessment techniques, and we can also use them as the time for retrieval practice and actually using that output phonology, so much the better. And it occurs to me too, in a way, I think teachers today, we may have lost one of those natural opportunities when we started doing work online, which I'm a huge fan of, don't give me pieces of paper. But didn't we used to do that a lot, right? And we're walking around the classroom and 'okay, where's Jacob?' That's right.[PROF. JIM LANG] Right.[DR. MICHELLE D. MILLER] And people may not have even realized what that was doing for them. And now that's all happening offline. Maybe we don't even have pictures in that LMS that we're using and so we're losing that. But yeah, it can work the other way too. At the end of class, I'm frequently taking up index cards.(Dr. Michelle laughing) I'm a huge fan of the exit question or this and that.[PROF. JIM LANG] Yeah[DR. MICHELLE D. MILLER] And they've got their name on it. And maybe not for everybody, but at least in that mayhem of the last five minutes of class, a few of those are coming in. I can look. I can say. I can retrieve for at least a few folks.[PROF. JIM LANG] Yeah, actually, you know, I think there's a practice I just benefit from in terms of student names throughout most of my teaching career because students would write these short writing exercises at the start of class. And I would always walk around and hand them out student by students, which would force me to where they are sitting. And that helped me that association, which actually makes me wonder about virtual environments. Now, of course, the names are always on the screen typically, but the flattening of contexts in a virtual environment in terms of like associations between a physical body sitting in a room where they actually sit is kind of flattened in a virtual environment, right? So I mean, but maybe it's not so important because the names are on the screen. I don't know. Any thoughts about that?[DR. MICHELLE D. MILLER] Yeah, and this is one of the few areas where somebody who kind of thinks a lot about online versus face-to-face, they go,'yep, this is different. The whole idea is different.' But still, just getting in that habit, I know for me to actually use the name, and I think more of us too are trying to entice students even if they're in an asynchronous class to try to set up some kind of a phone call or a Zoom call with me some point And there I can continue to use my good and hopefully well ingrained habits of actually using the name. But right, what you're describing in that face-to-face classroom where we like it or not, we make associations, how does the student usually dress and definitely where they sit, that's, your brain kind of shoots from the hip when it comes to encoding memories. It's not always like super systematic And yeah, if that student always sits in the corner and wears a backwards baseball cap, that visual and that spatial information, our brains are very attuned to picking that stuff up. And of course, if we get too dependent on that, the student gets a haircut, forgets their hat,(Jim laughing) Just decides to sit with their new best friend on the other side of the room, and then we're totally lost. So that's another reason to make sure that we've already reinforced as much as we can a nice strong memory.[PROF. JIM LANG] That's great. This is all really fascinating stuff and reader wants to or a listener wants to learn more from you? They go to the book first(unintelligible), but where else can they learn from you or contact you or get more information about you and your work?[DR. MICHELLE D. MILLER] Well, great. I mean, most of the time these days, LinkedIn is my social media of choice. And I also have a Substack that's free that folks can sign up for if they'd like a semi-regular set of newsletters that really focus on learning sciences and applying those to teaching and learning, especially higher education contexts.[PROF. JIM LANG] And you give talks and workshops in this material as well?[DR. MICHELLE D. MILLER] Oh, as much as I can. I absolutely love working with faculty groups and also leadership groups around these issues. So, yeah, you can. There's lots of different ways to engage with this content. And, yeah, definitely reach out to me. Get a hold of me on LinkedIn or check out that Substack.[PROF. JIM LANG] Right. And by the way, I can't recommend that Substack highly enough.(Dr. Michelle laughing) It's great. Sort of summary, capsulations of new research and learning and psychology and cognition. It's just really fascinating stuff. Always with practical applications. So I absolutely recommend it to listeners. Ok, thanks, Michelle. It's been a great conversation as always. And I'm looking forward to chatting again sometime soon.(calm upbeat music)[DR. MICHELLE D. MILLER] All right. Thank you as well.(upbeat music continues) Designed for Learning is a production of Notre Dame Learning of the University of Notre Dame. For more, visit our website at learning.nd.edu.