Divorce Diaries: Lessons From the Trenches
Welcome to Divorce Diaries, where host Cary Jacobson, attorney and mediator brings you real stories, hard truths, and practical advice on navigating divorce and family law. Whether you're going through it, considering it, or just curious, this is your place for clarity, confidence, and resilience.
Divorce Diaries: Lessons From the Trenches
EP #3: Unlocking Financial Clarity in Divorce with Guest Amanda Campbell, CFP
Learn the secrets to managing your finances during divorce with insights from guest, Amanda Campbell, a Certified Financial Planner and Divorce Financial Analyst. Amanda and host Cary Jacobson, attorney and mediator, tackle the emotional and financial complexities of divorce. Amanda provides expert advice on understanding the full financial picture, including hidden costs beyond the mortgage. This episode promises valuable guidance for navigating high-stakes decisions in the midst of a divorce, helping you achieve stability and clarity in a turbulent time.
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Welcome to Divorce Diaries, where Attorney Cary Jacobson brings you real stories, hard truths and practical advice on navigating divorce and family law. Whether you're going through it, considering it or just curious, this is your place for clarity, confidence and resilience.
Cary Jacobson:Welcome to Divorce Diaries: Lessons from the Trenches. I'm your host Cary Jacobson, and on this podcast we're exploring the challenges of divorce and how to navigate them with expert advice from professionals who have seen it all. Today, I am thrilled to have my guest, Amanda Campbell, with us. Amanda is a certified financial planner, a certified divorce financial analyst, an accredited asset management specialist, as well as an accredited investment fiduciary. With all of that expertise, she helps women navigate the financial complexities of divorce to secure a stable future. Amanda, thanks so much for being here today.
Amanda Campbell:Thank you for having me. I'm so excited.
Cary Jacobson:Absolutely, and I'm also happy to say that Amanda is a close friend of mine. So, Amanda, tell me a little bit about, or tell our listeners, how you started your journey on financial planning and what really led you to work with those focusing on divorce.
Amanda Campbell:Yeah, it's a long, long story so I'll condense it. But you know, when I was in college I started off in the accounting track and very quickly realized I like talking to people it was very hard for me to sit with a calculator all day long at my desk so very quickly found financial planning. There's a lot of kismet that went on behind the scenes with that, but when I finally reached financial planning and you know, I started off at Strategic Wealth Management Group, which turned into Stratt Wealth and then we merged into Wealthspire. So, believe it or not, I've actually been with at the same company my entire career since I graduated college.
Amanda Campbell:But you know, in sitting with financial advisors and starting to get my feet wet in what financial planning really means, I very quickly realized there weren't people specifically helping women, right Like women weren't being helped, and I had always had this innate desire to help women and just felt so strongly pulled to it just because of my own personal life experiences.
Amanda Campbell:My father passed when I was 12. So I really had to watch my mom take the reins on figuring out the finances for our family, making sure that we could still make it and still continue to live our lives. So it all really, I always say it all culminated in this crazy intense passion, for I have to help women because no one else is and you know they are an underserved market. So at the same time I was having all these thoughts I was new to financial planning, I was trying to figure out what market I was serving my best friend came to me and told me that she was going to be going through a divorce and she kind of said to me hey, you help people with their money all the time. What does this mean for me? And I was like babe, no, I help happy people with their money, like I don't know what it means for you.
Amanda Campbell:So I decided right then and there, that was the last time I was going to tell a woman, I don't know, you know best friend or not. So I went and got my CDFA right after that and it's. It was just kind of history. Ever since, right Like I've been doing this, I love it, Kind of made a track for myself working with women going through divorce. It is a specialty, it's niched, but I have found my people. Just you know, like you said, Cary, we've been friends a while, working with amazing attorneys like you to really help women and support them financially during the divorce process, because it is really scary.
Cary Jacobson:It's absolutely scary, and that's one of the biggest fears I think most women have when they're going through the process how am I going to financially survive this Right? And so having you on the team definitely helps address those fears. Yeah, and we know that divorce can be, you know, super overwhelming, especially, especially when it comes to finances. What are some of the top financial concerns that your clients struggle with the most?
Amanda Campbell:Number one and it's number one no matter how many years I look this over and do this type of work. The marital home and like, obviously you're nodding, you know right, Marital home it's always. You know, I work primarily with women and typically there is a strong desire to keep the marital home. So I really encourage the women I work with to think through why do you want to keep it Right? Is it emotional? Is there an actual reason? Right, are we trying to wait for kids to get through high school? But, whatever the reason, does it actually match up with what's doable financially?
Amanda Campbell:Because a lot of times women will say to me Amanda, I'll do anything it takes to stay in the house, all right, well, when I'm looking at your plan and we're starting to run through that, through the numbers, you might be willing to do anything it takes, but it still may not be feasible. And I would rather you know that upfront than after the marital settlement agreement is signed and all of a sudden you find yourself really feeling strapped for cash every month. You know, I always say it's not just about the house and the mortgage, it's happy homeowners expenses, house and the mortgage, it's happy homeowners expenses right, the roof, the hot water heater stuff. Like I say, I mean again, no matter how many years I do this work, the biggest hang up mistake, kind of just sticky point that I find with my clients is the marital home. So I do a lot of coaching around. Tell me why you want to keep it and let's look at the numbers and see if it justifies. You know the means.
Cary Jacobson:Yeah, but in this higher interest rate situation, are you seeing a change in how people are handling the marital home? Because in years past, oftentimes you know the quick thing was to refinance, buy your spouse out of their interest and that sort of thing. But I'm finding that that's not always possible, at least not right away.
Amanda Campbell:Totally, and it's definitely shifted in the past 24 months, for sure, because, you're right, it used to kind of be easy to get out of the marital home, right. But now it's like hey, I have a 2.875% rate, I don't want a 7.5% rate and, quite frankly, that may not be feasible. That is, that does jump your payment pretty significantly, and then on top of that, with the way that houses have increased, right, just the pricing you may not be getting, it may not be worth it to move out of your marital home, right. So, but, but there are still some instances and I know you see it too where you have to leave the giant marital home behind, just because, again, it doesn't just come down to the mortgage. Like, yes, you may have a smaller home with a higher interest rate, but you don't have to pay for landscaping twice a year, you don't have to pay for the weekly lawn mowing, like that stuff adds up. So you're exactly right.
Amanda Campbell:Although the landscape has changed, I still find myself coming back to a lot of the key principles of why do you want this home? And a lot of times now it may not be. Let's get out of the home immediately, but let's have a plan for the next three to five years. Right, because you're right, it used to be very immediate and now it's more of a graduated step down.
Cary Jacobson:Yeah, that's what we're kind of saying, that three to five year mark, hoping, you know, I think we're all fingers crossed that the interest rates are going to come down at least somewhat and it will be a little bit more reasonable for people to refinance to. Maybe it's not seven, but probably not three. But we're in, you know, somewhere in the middle there. Yes, in your experience, what is one common mistake you've seen people make during the divorce process that could have been prevented, and how can our listeners avoid it?
Amanda Campbell:Oh, okay, so the biggest one I see, and this one's pretty avoidable, so I'll kind of do two, cause they go a little bit hand in hand. You already know what I'm going to say, Cary, but trading retirement dollars for non-retirement dollars. So a lot of times during the divorce process and this is why I am so just an advocate for making sure that you have the proper people surrounding you when you're going through a divorce the proper attorney, the proper financial professional, the proper mental health professional right, because you're going to get exhausted and the place where I see the most fatigue is with the finances.
Amanda Campbell:Cause you just get to a point where you're like you know my client will say to me fine, amanda, just just say it's okay, so I can go and sign. And I'm like, no, it's not okay, we are not taking a hundred thousand dollars of his 401k so he can keep a hundred thousand dollars of the joint account. Right, that is not a dollar for dollar transaction, and what I mean by that is $100,000 of IRA or 401k money. You have to pay full tax on that. Income tax, let's just say 30%, just that's the number I kind of always use, whereas a dollar in a joint account or an investment account you don't owe income tax on. So that is a place where I am very, very strict with my clients on looking at the numbers, looking at the sourcing of where those dollars are coming from. And then kind of in that same vein, right, let's say that my clients are split, or my client is splitting a joint account with her husband.
Amanda Campbell:I recently had one where the husband was trying to say, oh, we'll split the account 50-50, but she can take these stocks and I'm going to take these stocks. Well, guess what Stocks that he wanted her to have had ridiculously low basis on them because they bought them at like the beginning of their marriage. So he did not want to have to pay capital gains tax on the growth, right? Because he was in a higher earning tax bracket. So and we went round and round like it was. It got really messy. But my client to this day is like Amanda thank you for not letting me just settle and take that, because I mean, a lot of that money would have gone to tax. Like you, you have to pay tax on any growth in an investment account, right? So it's just watching for things like that, which you may not. You know, without the proper training and without the proper knowledge, you're not going to think about that stuff. But it really matters. It matters to the bottom line.
Cary Jacobson:Yeah, I think anytime when we're talking about tax consequences, it's absolutely crucial to have a financial advisor in the mix, because everybody's situation is so unique and it needs to be looked at, you know, in totality and, as attorneys and mediators, that's not our training, even though many of us will try to take on that role, and you know it's not where our expertise lies, and so I think it's important to have, you know, someone like you in the mix on that.
Amanda Campbell:Well, thank you, and I do always say I can help until the marital settlement agreement is signed, because, you're right, Cary, like a lot of attorneys do try to do this on their own, and clients will come to me after the fact I'm like, oh, that was a big whoopsie and now we can't really undo it. So you're absolutely right.
Cary Jacobson:Yeah, I'm sure that there are, you know, many women that you encounter that feel paralyzed by the financial uncertainty of divorce. What would the first step be to for someone to take to organize their finances when they are starting the divorce process?
Amanda Campbell:Yeah. So I always say the first thing is, just take a deep breath, sit down with a glass of wine and a sheet of blank paper and try to just write down from memory all of the accounts that you and your husband have together, so everything you own and everything you owe. So any liabilities, you know where your mortgage is kept and about how much it is right, what the balance is. Do you guys have any car notes together? Any outstanding student loans? Maybe you all took out student loans for your children, right? Just taking a deep breath to say from memory what do we have in our household? The best place to start, because then you can start finding sourcing documents for all of that stuff. Right, I'm going to need to see statements for everything, just like your attorney is. So, really, just taking that deep breath to just wrap your head around what do I have?
Amanda Campbell:And if you have not been, you know the person I would say the CFO of the household. Right, if you have not been the CFO of the household, you have been filling more of the CEO capacity. Now's the time to step up and really start asking questions. You know, and I get, that it may be an uncomfortable, you know, couple dynamic at that time you all are, you know, starting to go down the divorce path. But it's just fair for you to know and that's not something I'll back down from like, you have the right to ask as a woman and as a wife you have the right to have those answers. So start asking and really try to figure it out.
Cary Jacobson:Is there a particular source? I mean, if someone has not been in that CFO role, right, and they're trying to gather some of those sourcing documents. What are some of the things that you suggest that they start looking for?
Amanda Campbell:Yep. So the easy fish in the barrel are bank accounts, right. So your checking account? Hopefully they're joint. If they're not, make sure that you have handle on what do you have? What does he have? Any investment accounts are usually kept jointly, right. So you know Chuck Charles or Charles Schwab, t R Price, morgan Stanley, all those like normal wire houses um retirement plans, those are tough right, cause they lie within your own name, his name, right? So you can never call and figure out what your partner right it's. It doesn't work that way. So I say, start with the easy things bank accounts, investment accounts and you'll kind of have to learn about the other stuff as you go along. Yeah, great answer.
Cary Jacobson:Yeah, I always also suggest tax returns, because that's a great a plethora of information, because maybe you don't know about an investment account or some other, something Right and off. Many times some of that information will be buried in those tax records. So you know there's a 1099 that equates to a particular account or something like that that can be helpful.
Amanda Campbell:Yeah, those are super helpful if you can kind of get your hands on them and pick them apart.
Cary Jacobson:Right, yeah. Well, even if you can't pick them apart, maybe someone else can pick them apart, but at least you have the information to share, right. Yes, for those listeners who also have children, is there a particular financial approach that is different than those who do not have children?
Amanda Campbell:Oh my gosh. Yes. So I think you know, when I work with women who have children who are are minors and honestly, these days, even if they're not, because no kids are launching at 18 anymore, like that's just not happening I really try to work with them on what are your expenses versus what? Versus what are the kids expenses right? And I know that is so hard to answer because so much of it gets so mingled, but to really understand what she's going to need moving forward in her life, there has to be an end, there has to be an end date for the kids' expenses Right. So when I'm working with somebody who has, you know, young children all the way up through around 2021, it really is what are we looking to do long-term? Who's paying for college, right? Who's paying for extracurricular activities? And that's the stuff that, while we can work through a plan, gets kind of run up to the attorney to say what's possible, what's doable and what is opposing counsel offering.
Cary Jacobson:Yeah. What is the legal requirement? As far as what a parent may be obligated to pay versus what they may be willing to pay, it varies depending on how long it is, and sometimes my client won't get the answer she wants, right?
Amanda Campbell:Sometimes the husband's like oh, I actually no longer want to pay for college and can't really make them. Right, you can't make them. So then it becomes well, what do you want to do with your wealth? Is this something you'd like to support moving forward, or is it okay if kids get student loans Right? So there is a lot that goes into really coming up with a successful and in-depth and meaningful financial plan when there are children involved, for sure.
Cary Jacobson:Yeah, I would just note for our listeners, because you're listening outside of Maryland. It really depends on the state, because there are some states where child support is obligated through college, depending on whether or not the children are enrolled in school college, depending on whether or not the children are enrolled in school. But for us who are working here in Maryland, child support terminates, you know, whenever the child graduates high school. So, like you said, there's no financial requirement for them, for parents, to pay for college. So it does get a little tricky on how that's going to happen. Yeah, can you share an example of how proactive financial planning made a difference in the outcome of a divorce?
Amanda Campbell:Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I think it just helps everybody to have a financial plan in divorce. But the one, the one that I always come back to, is so this client and I were working together and she, you know, they were going through a collaborative divorce, which I don't know if it was necessarily the best option for them, but anyways, we had built this beautiful financial plan for her and she was feeling good about it and really understood how her money was going to work for her. For some reason, husband thought she is going to be riding off into the sunset with a backpack full of money and, just like she is taking me for all I'm worth. It is the one and only time I've ever done this, but I was able to present her financial plan, which was very thought out, very like, meticulously detailed.
Amanda Campbell:I was able, with her permission, to show her financial plan to opposing counsel and to her husband and in that exact meeting they were, they were good to sign. He was like I understand that she is, she's just trying to make a. He was like I understand that she is she's just trying to make a good life for herself. I understand that she's not taking me for all I'm worth. And it really just showed me the power of just knowledge.
Amanda Campbell:And, like he really had no concept of his of the money that they were splitting, you know he had never thought about, oh my gosh, how does she need to make life work after we split? And I keep working and she doesn't. And it just really reminded me that, as scared as my clients are of the money opposing counsel and the other side, they're scared too, and sometimes they're not. You know, a lot of times those heated arguments are just from a lack of knowledge. Right, so to your point, just being proactive, having a good financial plan. It was just such a wild example of we had this ready to go because we had worked so hard and it pushed everything over the finish line.
Cary Jacobson:Yeah, I think oftentimes seeing the numbers in black and white can be the eye opener, because oftentimes we're just thinking theoreticals and it's like, well, what does that actually mean in practice? And so I do a lot of that when I'm working with people in like mediation. It's like, well, let's look at the spreadsheet or let's look at the actual numbers, what does that mean? Right, so they can put context to what they're talking about, because sometimes they're just thinking, well, they're going to get so much more out of this particular thing, but really, when it boils down to it, it ends up being like not very much in the grand scheme of things. So, yeah, putting the numbers to it definitely can help.
Amanda Campbell:Yes, absolutely.
Cary Jacobson:As we start to wrap up, what's one piece of advice that you would offer listeners who are feeling overwhelmed by those financial aspects of their divorce?
Amanda Campbell:Yeah, just honestly, number one, truly take a deep breath. It's going to be okay. I know that it is extraordinarily scary when all of a sudden, you know you were not the CFO of the household or maybe you didn't take that front seat, and now you are being confronted with. You have to figure it all out on your own. And not only that, but now it's not a great place to figure that out. You're figuring out amongst animosity, right? So there are a lot of emotions, but truly meaningfully, please find somebody to work with. Please find a CDFA I know we are not there, aren't a bunch of us out there but find one that you know, love and trust and have good chemistry with, because that person, that expert, they'll really help you to figure out so much stuff.
Amanda Campbell:I mean you know, for me, I always tell my clients I can run when you need to run or I can walk with you when you need to walk, because that's how divorce is right. Sometimes it's slow, sometimes it's fast, sometimes we're waiting on information, but this number stuff, this finance stuff, I mean I've been doing it for 15 years. Right, it's not. You know, clients say to me oh my , Amanda, you must think I'm so dumb. I don't know this. I don't think you're dumb at all. Like, I've been doing this for 15 years. You've been doing this for gosh, 15 minutes since you found out your divorce was going to happen. So just find somebody that you can really talk to about this stuff, feel comfortable talking with and truly build a solid divorce team, because, you know, have an amazing attorney, get a mental health professional, get a divorce coach if you need one. Even if you're kind of like huh, that sounds like a waste of money. I promise you it's not right. Make sure you're surrounding yourself, because it takes a village to get through a divorce.
Cary Jacobson:Absolutely All right. So can you tell our audience how they can find out more about you and the services that you provide?
Amanda Campbell:Yes, so you can find my bio. Find out about Wealthspire Advisors at Wealthspire. com, and the easiest way to get a hold of me is by email at amanda. campbell@w ealthspire. com, and I look forward to hearing from you. Thank you so much, Cary. This was fun.
Cary Jacobson:You're welcome and thank you so much. Thanks for sharing those valuable insights. We know that divorce can be challenging, but with professionals like you guiding the way, we know it's possible to come out on the other side so much stronger, and I look forward to continuing to work with our clients together.
Amanda Campbell:Yes, thank you, thank you.
Intro/Close Speaker:Thanks for joining us today on this episode of Divorce Diaries. Remember every journey is unique, but you don't have to navigate it alone. Visit jacobsonfamilylaw. com or call 443-726-4912 for support and guidance.