Divorce Diaries: Lessons From the Trenches
Welcome to Divorce Diaries, where host Cary Jacobson, attorney and mediator brings you real stories, hard truths, and practical advice on navigating divorce and family law. Whether you're going through it, considering it, or just curious, this is your place for clarity, confidence, and resilience.
Divorce Diaries: Lessons From the Trenches
EP #9: Advice From a Divorce Coach with Guest Lisa Lisser
Divorce can be daunting, but with the right guidance, it becomes a journey of empowerment. Host Cary Jacobson, attorney and mediator, sits down with Lisa Lisser, Divorce Coach, to discuss the crucial role of divorce coaching in helping individuals navigate their emotional challenges, recognize their strengths, and communicate effectively during legal processes.
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you know, a light bulb went off and I realized that divorce coaching could be the perfect blend of all of my skillsets, where I could be an advocate, I could hold people's hearts, I could help them recognize that I see them and they can do more than what they're doing now and they don't have to do it alone. And that's when I realized that being a divorce coach was what I needed to do.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Divorce Diaries, where attorney Carrie Jacobson brings you real stories, hard truths and practical advice on navigating divorce and family law. Whether you're going through it, considering it or just curious, this is your place for clarity, confidence and resilience.
Speaker 3:Welcome back to Divorce Diaries Lessons from the Trenches, where we share real stories and expert insights to help you navigate the divorce process with less stress and more clarity. I'm your host, keri Jacobson, and today I'm thrilled to welcome Lisa Lisser to the show. Lisa is a certified divorce coach and a co-parenting specialist who helps individuals navigate the divorce with confidence. She's certified in BH2O, which she's going to tell us more about later, and that's a co-parenting resource designed to offer to ease post-divorce parenting challenges. Lisa also hosts a podcast called Dishing on Divorce with Lisa Lisser, and she is the co-author of Divorce Decoded a manifesto for women navigating divorce and beyond. Contributing to the chapter your Guide on the Side Navigating Divorce and Beyond. Contributing to the chapter your Guide on the Side Stories from a Divorce Coach. Lisa. Thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 1:Carrie, thank you so much for having me Well let's jump in.
Speaker 3:I'd love for you to share with our listeners a little bit more about your journey and what led you to become a divorce coach.
Speaker 1:Sure, you know we all have stories right, we all have journeys, we all have paths, and none of us expected that that journey was going to lead us here. I mean, that's something I really want my clients to know, your audience to know that you know we're on the path that took us to where we needed to be at the time. We needed to be there. So, for me, I met my spouse in college. We were college sweethearts, we got married, we had three kids and we grew up together. But, as I tend to say, we grew up in different directions and it wasn't what we expected. And I got divorced after a 20 plus year marriage and it was really shocking. And even though I was an attorney who had stopped practicing a while back, I felt totally like a fish out of water and I didn't feel like I had any support during the divorce process, even though I had several lawyers. It went up to several different lawyers to get through. We started with mediation, it got ugly, we got litigation. It was just such a hard process and I didn't think there was anyone out there who could help me or was really there designed to be my guide on the side. And so that was that experience.
Speaker 1:Moving forward since the divorce, I got a master's in Jewish education. I learned about spiritual counseling and the power that connecting to our souls through ancient texts helps us actually realize that our issues have been around for a long time and there is wisdom in places. We didn't expect and I thought maybe that would be a way to help people going through divorce, but I wasn't sure how to pitch it right. I didn't know how to like share with attorneys that, like I, can really hold your client's souls and I can help them, you know, dig out from that ugly place. But I wasn't sure.
Speaker 1:So I pursued my master's in Jewish education. I became an educator, a curriculum designer, and this is after 20 plus years of being a volunteer and a leader in nonprofit world, where I was a public speaker and a program designer. I did lots of things. We are all lots of things. But in the course of my pursuing my career as a Jewish educator, I learned that there was this thing called divorce coaching, which I had never heard of and it was like you know. A light bulb went off and I realized that divorce coaching could be the perfect blend of all of my skill sets. Where I could be an advocate. I could hold people's hearts, I could help them recognize that I see them and they can do more than what they're doing now, and they don't have to do it alone. And that's when I realized that being a divorce coach was what I needed to do. So I pivoted yet again and I got certified in divorce coaching, and here I am.
Speaker 3:That's quite a journey, Absolutely. You know, kind of twist and turns and one thing leads to the next and now you have found your place in the divorce coaching world, which I still think so many people don't necessarily know about. It's becoming more popular and, you know, more known, but not every attorney knows about it and definitely not every attorney or mediator recommends it to their clients. So I don't think it, you know. It's just not as publicized as I think it should be.
Speaker 1:I think part of the problem is that we just don't know what we don't know. You know there's I was. I did this landmark education many years ago when I was trying to figure out what my direction was and they shared that there's. You know what you know and you also know a category of things that you don't know. Like I know I don't know how to speak French right, I know, I don't know that but the biggest category is the things that I don't know, that I don't know right, and so I didn't know that I could get help, and I didn't know that I could get help from someone who could coach me, and I didn't even know that I could ask for that kind of help.
Speaker 1:And all of those things are symptoms of going through divorce, because we feel like we're supposed to be experts at everything. But we might be experts at our lives. We know our lives better than anyone else, but we are not expert at divorce. We have never done this before and we are terrified. So the role of the divorce coach is to take away some of that fear, to allow my clients to know that they are allowed to get help, and maybe the most courageous thing is to actually recognize you need help and ask for it, so that I give my clients permission to do that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, in your chapter of the Divorce Decoded book that we worked on together, you talk about being that guy on the side. Can you share a little bit about what that means for you when you're working with your clients who are going through the divorce process?
Speaker 1:Sure. What that means to me is that I am there to walk the path with my client. To me is that I am there to walk the path with my client. So in some ways it's like a Sherpa. Right, the Sherpa has climbed that mountain before, but the Sherpa doesn't know everything about you and your strengths or limitations. So until you build that relationship with the Sherpa, the steps they give you might not be the exact right steps.
Speaker 1:So my job is to get to know my clients and to ask them the questions that lead to questions they ask themselves. So, in other words, like, if they ask me, so what am I going to get in child support, I will say, well, what do you want to get and what do you think you really need? And what does child support even mean to you, right? So like, help them really define terms. So that's kind of how I am the guide on the side and I help my clients recognize that they have strengths that they may not realize they have.
Speaker 1:So if someone is facing a challenging situation, I will ask them something like so has there ever been a time in your life when you had to stand up for one of your kids or advocate for something in school or do some other kind of work for someone else. You know, what did you do then, when you weren't the person who needed help, but someone else was? And what I discover is that people have all of these inner strengths that they just don't think about when it comes to helping themselves, because they're so focused on serving other people that they don't know that they have the strength inside to actually do it for themselves too.
Speaker 3:I agree that many people kind of going through the process and I would say especially women, that is a struggle that they, you know, have, because they do, you know, so often do everything else for everyone else and don't necessarily put themselves first, and so it's making them realize that they have that strength and that it's always been there. They just downplay it for themselves, but if it was their best friend they would be able to find all of those great qualities in that other person. I think that's just something that we often inherently do we're our own worst critics.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, I think so.
Speaker 3:In your experience? What is one common mistake you've seen people make during the divorce process that could have been prevented, and how can our listeners avoid that?
Speaker 1:Let's see one common mistake. So what I see as a big error is approaching the process from a position like taking a stand that you won't back down from right, like I have to get a hundred percent custody of the kids. Yeah, now you know, people will come to me and I'll help them recognize that most courts don't do that anymore. Help them recognize that most courts don't do that anymore and maybe that's not actually what they want. And then we dig deeper. But what really happens is they start out. They're saying I must have this and I must have that, and before I say okay, let's go, I say tell me more about that, what's so important about having this and what are the values underlying it and how can I help you live up to those values, as opposed to demanding that position.
Speaker 1:So that's where I see the most struggle, and I also have many clients who feel like they've been married to someone who demonstrates narcissistic personality traits and they have felt victimized throughout their marriage or maybe more recently or whenever it is. But they feel like they are the victim and they have no agency. And that's a big mistake, because we all have agency. We just have to give ourselves permission to use it and for many of my clients I have one in particular I'm thinking about. She was so traumatized by the narcissism in her relationship that she felt like she wasn't allowed to make any decisions for herself. And since she wasn't allowed then, she just can't do it now. And what I help people do is learn to take those small steps to practice decision-making and need identification and need identification. They can become spokespeople for themselves. They can find their voice all over again.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that's so important for people to that don't feel like they've had, you know, agency to make those decisions, to realize they do have the strength to and now using that strength and agency, going forward, but not to the extent of digging in their heels and, you know, being in one position that they're not willing to budge. I think there's that, you know, that fine line there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean there is knowing what you want and going after it. And then there's my way or the highway. So that's where you know we can't stand on a position which is like you know, can't stand on a position which is, like you know, a high diving board, without recognizing that you know there may not be any water in there. Let's figure out, you know, in that pool that you might be diving into, let's figure out how do we fill up that cup with what's most important, what are your interests? And now your interests can reach up to your position.
Speaker 3:Now we have a place to start talking. Yeah, and so much of what you are describing now is kind of in that realm of mediation that we do so much work in, and I know that that's something that you help your clients with in offering pre-mediation coaching so that they can go, you know, go into the mediation sessions with clarity and confidence. Can you explain to our listeners a little bit about what your services related to pre-mediation coaching involves?
Speaker 1:Sure, what I help clients do is recognize that they do have power, but they need to use their power judiciously, and that we really go through everything that they are looking to achieve and how they can achieve. We look at what is a negotiable and what's a non-negotiable, and if there are non-negotiables, what are you willing to give up in order to get something? So we really look at this. It's not horse trading, although it might sound that way the way I'm posing it, but it really is about valuing your values right what is most important to you and what is most important to the person you're negotiating with, and how can we meet their needs so that you can get what you need. And so that's a big piece of it.
Speaker 1:And I help them understand the mediation process so that they don't feel many people think that someone is going to give them an agreement in mediation and they're like a judge and that's it. And I disabuse them of that notion and I let them know that mediation is about agency. Like you have control of the process, you don't have to agree to anything you don't want and you have a power the power to actually reach agreement with your soon-to-be ex over things that you thought you may never have agreed on before. Right, but now the ability to agree is going to give you a platform to launch your next phase of your life.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. How would you describe or if you could explain to the listeners slightly understanding that you have an attorney background but in this role you are coaching. How is your coaching different than if they were also working with an attorney in preparation for mediation? Because that's something that we do with our clients. But I want to make sure that listeners are clear that the coaching side is different than the legal preparation for mediation.
Speaker 1:So 100 percent. So the difference between what I do and what a lawyer does is I strategize with you about all the different questions you might have for your lawyer. So, rather than going into that session with your lawyer and hoping that they know all of the issues you should be dealing with, I work with the client before that meeting so they can really identify what is most important to them, what are their issues, what are their concerns? How can they best communicate those issues and concerns to their lawyer or to the mediator? I work with them on communication techniques. If, for instance, they have a particular thing with their soon-to-be ex that particularly triggers them, how do we deal with that trigger? How do we shift our conversation patterns, which are ingrained to learn new techniques, which are ingrained to learn new techniques? I work with neuroplasticity ideas that you can change your brain but you need to practice, and so the practice happens in the coaching space, so that you're practicing in the coaching space what you're going to deliver in the legal space. Does that make sense?
Speaker 3:Absolutely. And then, from you know, kind of our perspective it is always great when a client is also working with a coach, because they do come to us kind of prepared and knowing exactly what it is that they are looking for, and then especially what those clients that are going to be negotiating or going to mediation. We help them in figuring out, you know, or at least discussing with them, what the law allows and that the fact that that is a reference point and those things that are non-negotiables, you know, like child support and that sort of thing, as well as those things that they can negotiate, you know how the house is going to be dealt with or how they can address custody and access issues and those sorts of things. So we're looking at it also from the negotiation side, but really giving them the legal background so they know what their rights and obligations are before they're making those decisions going into the mediation space.
Speaker 1:Right. So one one like Idea that we can bring here is that there is a legal framework that you work with your clients on that. This is the legal framework around which our agreement will be reached on that. This is the legal framework around which our agreement will be reached, and I have a different framework.
Speaker 1:My framework is these this is your life and these are the issues that are most important to you. They may not be most important to the next door neighbor who is also getting divorced, but but I we need to identify what's most important to you and what is most important to your life and your children's lives. So let's do that in our space, because my framework is bringing out all the issues that are most important and helping my client develop their curiosity muscle so they can start to ask questions about why is this so important to me? What am I really concerned about? Is there something that I just haven't thought about before, but is really the core issue that I am most concerned about, so that we can go under layers that the client may not have the time to go through with their attorney, and their attorney is asking them for answers to questions, whereas I'm asking questions to their answer yep, absolutely all right.
Speaker 3:I want to shift gears a little bit. Um. So I know that you are certified in the here's a little bit.
Speaker 1:So I know that you are certified in the. Is it B-H-2-O? Am I saying it correctly?
Speaker 3:Actually B-E-H-2-O, I'm looking at it as B the word, so B-E-H-2-O. So can you tell us a little bit more about what that is and how it works?
Speaker 1:Sure. So B-E-H-H2O is a joint co-parenting movement, really, where we have designed. Our founder, trina Knudsen, has designed this program as a workshop for co-parents who are really struggling with communication and argumentation and fighting constantly over how they are responding to the co-parenting challenges. Now we're all going to have conflict, but how we deal with the conflict and respond to the conflict is going to make a whole different reality for our kids. So the goal and the objective and the purpose of BEH2O is safeguarding childhoods from the challenges of divorce. You know I've heard people say, well, you don't want to involve the kids in X, y or Z, and the bottom line is the kids are involved and they're experiencing it, even if you think you're hiding the conflict. There is tension and they know you're hiding the conflict. There is tension and they know. And the kids get put in the middle so often that this program helps the parents recognize that their marital relationship is over. What was dysfunctional there, we agree, is dysfunctional. We put it on a shelf.
Speaker 1:Now we're in a new business and this business is raising our kids. So if we were in business together, we should follow business strategies for success. So that means focusing on our purpose, focusing on our structure? What is our entrepreneurial operating system? So that would be like when do we communicate? How do we communicate? What method do we use to communicate? How do we communicate so we stop triggering each other?
Speaker 1:You feel and what you need, so you talk in emotion, words that are not accusatory, which so often accusation is what derails the process. So our clients learn to look at each other not as objects or obstacles, but as other human beings that have feelings and needs. And there were things that may have motivated our co-parent that we just couldn't see because we were feeling so threatened. And so that's what BEH2O works toward, and it helps the couple or the co-parents learn that they actually have the power to change within themselves. And it takes a mindset shift, which is not easy, but it is effectuated by practicing the techniques and committing to making different choices so their children will feel a real difference.
Speaker 3:That sounds very interesting, especially for those who are having those difficulties in communicating post-divorce. You know, sometimes we see people who are getting along during the separation and the divorce. Things seem to be amicable. But often there are things that come up post-divorce that you know bumps in the road that make that communication challenging, and so this could be an opportunity to address those issues at that time. Yeah, do you ever have scenarios where you know for our listeners who may have that uncooperative co-parent right, what is a practical piece of advice you'd give them in creating a better environment for their kids?
Speaker 1:So I just want to share that most of the parents that have gone through this program have been ordered by the court to do the workshop. These are people who've been filing motions, who maybe they have a guardian ad litem, maybe they have a parenting coordinator, but it's not working and the cost of conflict is high in both emotions and in dollars. So this program gives the couple the agency to actually make the changes themselves, even if they think it's impossible. I have no magic fairy dust to wave on their co-parent to say I'm going to change you. The only thing I can guarantee is that if you do the work, you will feel changed. And if you feel changed and you approach the relationship differently, the relationship will be different. And that's what we've seen time and time again. And our testimonials are from couples who, in one case, the father hadn't seen the teenage daughter for a year and a half. They had been so struggling that or their struggle was so acute that they couldn't even be together. And after the program they had a joint graduation party for the daughter from high school and they were able to be in the same place at the same time, which before the workshop they could never have even imagined. So it's really possible.
Speaker 1:And so you also asked for, like, what's a tip? So a tip is learning how to communicate without accusing and to recognize where you stand in the conflict. So how is your behavior sabotaging your own purpose, your own why, your own why? And when we start recognizing that it's not just them and I can't control them, I can only control myself. So recognizing that you can control yourself will enable you to shift your perspective. And it's not about becoming a doormat. That's not what we're asking our clients to do Like. This is not about rolling over Maybe. This is about setting real boundaries, and the boundaries are about what you will accept and boundaries are not about. Boundaries don't represent that you don't care about the other person. Boundaries demonstrate that you do care and that it's important for them to acknowledge that you have boundaries. But it's important for you to acknowledge it because that's how you respect yourself and that will earn the respect of the people you're dealing with respect of the people you're dealing with.
Speaker 3:That's so interesting and I'm gonna look more into that program. That's not something that I'm familiar with prior to our conversation last week, but I'm curious to know. You know, those people who are court ordered to participate typically are not doing so voluntarily, and I've done all of this. You know high conflict beforehand, so it'll be interesting to learn a little bit more about how many of them have a change in the behavior. Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1:what's so fascinating is that you know, some of these couples have been divorced for seven, eight years, before they even do the program, so they have really created habits that are not positive, related to co-parenting mindset. If, instead of looking only at how something affects them, they look at how it affects their children and how it affects their co-parents, it can shift their whole perspective on what is going on.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So, so it really there has been dramatic change. So, yes, I welcome you looking deeper because it's so powerful.
Speaker 3:Thank you for sharing so much valuable advice today. If the listeners take away just one thing from our conversation, what would you like that to be?
Speaker 1:I would like your listeners to know that they are allowed to ask for help, that sometimes the most courageous thing is to find the resource who has what you need, and acknowledge that you have needs, and having needs doesn't make you needy. You know, some of us feel like, oh, I don't want to be a needy person, I don't want everyone to think that I need help all the time. But when we wear that hat, we are not acknowledging that we weren't put on this earth to live it alone. We're in a world of community and there are resources out there in the divorce world who can help you walk the path and make it a little less terrifying and a little more empowering, because there's a light at the end of the tunnel and you will be able to launch to your next chapter, and there is a next chapter. So that's all what I might share with your audience.
Speaker 3:Thank you. Where can our listeners find you if they want to learn more about the services that you provide and also to hear your podcast?
Speaker 1:Sure, so I divorce coaches are not state limited, so my clients are across the country. You can find me at LZLcoachingcom. I offer 30 minute consults for free for anyone who's curious, and you could also reach me by email at Lisa at LZLcoachingcom. And you had one more question in there for me your podcast, my podcast. Yes, so my podcast is Dishing on Divorce with Lisa Lisser, and you can find me on YouTube, on Spotify, on Apple Podcasts or anywhere that you listen to your streams. But it's a great opportunity.
Speaker 3:Wonderful Well. Thank you so much for being here and sharing your wisdom with our listeners. Divorce is never easy, but with the right support team the professional team you can come out stronger on the other side and for our listeners. If you found this episode helpful, please be sure to subscribe and share it with anyone who could benefit from Lisa's insights. Until next time, remember you're not alone.
Speaker 2:Thanks for joining us today on this episode of Divorce Diaries. Remember, every journey is unique, but you don't have to navigate it alone. No-transcript.